Am I in the wrong?

[Vyanie]

Little bit of background, our party has a cleric, a fighter (full Archer build), a bard, a summoner, a bloodrager and myself an unchained rogue. We are using all 1st party books and also feats from pow. I had a concept of a super high sneak type knifemaster archtype that others on this forum helped flesh out some. Now that my character is finally coming together (spent all my gold on sneaky stuff and 2 of the other party members loaned me bit for ring of invis. The cleric is complaining that I'm to strong because my sneak is so high and to him I do "too much damage" even though I take 3 + turns to get into position every fight while the Archer does the same damage as me every turn without moving so no prep time for him. When I talked to the cleric about it he said I was too strong and he should be able to wade into battle and do more damage than me + buff, then heal the injured after. This cleric also didn't plan his build at all and is picking stuff just because
it sounds cool. Am I wrong to be offended? Should I be changing my playstyle to be just a crappy fighter that doesn't sneak or scout and just charges in and attacks stuff without flanking?

[ViperMagnum357]

Little bit of background, our party has a cleric, a fighter (full Archer build), a bard, a summoner, a bloodrager and myself an unchained rogue. We are using all 1st party books and also feats from pow. I had a concept of a super high sneak type knifemaster archtype that others on this forum helped flesh out some. Now that my character is finally coming together (spent all my gold on sneaky stuff and 2 of the other party members loaned me bit for ring of invis. The cleric is complaining that I'm to strong because my sneak is so high and to him I do "too much damage" even though I take 3 + turns to get into position every fight while the Archer does the same damage as me every turn without moving so no prep time for him. When I talked to the cleric about it he said I was too strong and he should be able to wade into battle and do more damage than me + buff, then heal the injured after. This cleric also didn't plan his build at all and is picking stuff just because
it sounds cool. Am I wrong to be offended? Should I be changing my playstyle to be just a crappy fighter that doesn't sneak or scout and just charges in and attacks stuff without flanking?

Sounds like his problem, not yours. A well played Cleric should often outshine a Rogue in combat once shapeshifting is in the cards; what level are you now? And what is that Fighter doing? keeping apace with a sneak attack build using a bow and presumably no precision damage is rather impressive. And why does it take you 3+ turns to get into position? You should be in your first flanking position after 1 turn, 2 at the most.

[sengmeng]

Tell him about your work and planning and let him know he can exceed you by improving his character, not by asking you to do worse. Direct him to resources to help, but I would not cater to someone asking me to hold myself back in this or any aspect of life. Also, he's probably going to still be able to crush some things that are immune to your sneak attack and I doubt you have any healing to speak of; you two barely overlap in roles at all and he should recognize that it's him who's shoving his way into your wheelhouse and then complaining that he can't keep up.

[AnimeTheCat]

Communicate with the rest of the party. Is the view of the cleric player shared across the party, or is this only held by the cleric player?

If it is shared across the party, you should be the one to internalize the party's feedback and change.

If it is only the cleric player that feels this way, have the party collaborate to help the cleric feel more incorporated and find his/her unique role in the party.

Some things to keep in mind, don't target the other player, let them lead. Do this by asking them to describe what they perceive the problem is to the party. Then ask the party how they feel. Don't ask direct agree/disagree questions, ask questions that allow for open dialogue. The point here is specifically to open and maintain a judgement free dialogue to make sure the player feels safe putting their feelings on the table. Doing this should clear up any problems in about 15-20 minutes.

[Vyanie]

Sounds like his problem, not yours. A well played Cleric should often outshine a Rogue in combat once shapeshifting is in the cards; what level are you now? And what is that Fighter doing? keeping apace with a sneak attack build using a bow and presumably no precision damage is rather impressive. And why does it take you 3+ turns to get into position? You should be in your first flanking position after 1 turn, 2 at the most.

We are level 7, not sure what the fighter is doing but I know he gets more attacks than me especially since he generally gets hasted and I don't do to position so my 2 attacks vs his 4 mine are not buffed at all but his have bard song and such. 3+ turns because the cleric and bard seem to start combat while I'm sneaking into position so 1-2 turns to get fully into position +1-2 because enemies are moving and unaware of me so moving away making it hard to full attack. Since the party expects me to still scout but doesn't wait for me to get into position after I told them what's in front but before fight starts it makes it hard.

[Falontani]

Communicate with the rest of the party. Is the view of the cleric player shared across the party, or is this only held by the cleric player?

If it is shared across the party, you should be the one to internalize the party's feedback and change.

If it is only the cleric player that feels this way, have the party collaborate to help the cleric feel more incorporated and find his/her unique role in the party.

Some things to keep in mind, don't target the other player, let them lead. Do this by asking them to describe what they perceive the problem is to the party. Then ask the party how they feel. Don't ask direct agree/disagree questions, ask questions that allow for open dialogue. The point here is specifically to open and maintain a judgement free dialogue to make sure the player feels safe putting their feelings on the table. Doing this should clear up any problems in about 15-20 minutes.
Alternatively gank the cleric, take his purse, use bluff to say the enemy got im, and help him reroll his character if he's willing to ever speak to you again.

[AnimeTheCat]

Alternatively gank the cleric, take his purse, use bluff to say the enemy got im, and help him reroll his character if he's willing to ever speak to you again.

I'm guessing that was sarcasm... otherwise thats a great way to lose a party member for good.

[Falontani]

I'm guessing that was sarcasm... otherwise thats a great way to lose a party member for good.

most definitely sarcasm

[Vyanie]

Tell him about your work and planning and let him know he can exceed you by improving his character, not by asking you to do worse. Direct him to resources to help, but I would not cater to someone asking me to hold myself back in this or any aspect of life. Also, he's probably going to still be able to crush some things that are immune to your sneak attack and I doubt you have any healing to speak of; you two barely overlap in roles at all and he should recognize that it's him who's shoving his way into your wheelhouse and then complaining that he can't keep up.

I have let him know how much I planned everything out, I offered to help him with his character but he doesn't want any yet does not want to waste his time looking through different books or looking through forums. We were fighting undead and he got mad that they were not immune to sneak attack

[KillianHawkeye]

I have let him know how much I planned everything out, I offered to help him with his character but he doesn't want any yet does not want to waste his time looking through different books or looking through forums. We were fighting undead and he got mad that they were not immune to sneak attack

He's clearly just one of those people that can't be pleased by anything, so don't bother wasting time trying to make him happy. He'll just find something else to complain about.

As to your original question, "Am I wrong to be offended?" My answer is "No", but getting offended about someone else's behavior (which you probably can't change) isn't very useful. You certainly aren't wrong for making a well thought out character or for playing him well.

My advice is to learn to ignore the incessant whining, and if you're very very lucky the lack of attention might at least get your friend to keep his complaints to himself after a while.

[Vyanie]

Ok thanks everyone!

[Kelb_Panthera]

Me, as you, to your cleric friend;

Hey Father McCrabby pants, Buck up and get good sunshine. If you're not doing as good as you think you should, that's on you. I'm playing by the rules so your got nothing to legit complain about.

[RoboEmperor]

Laugh at him. Seriously.

Clerics are T1. They are DMM:Persist. They break games, so tell him to fcking get good. It is absolutely sad when a caster, a t1 at that, tells a mundane he's too strong and should power down. Holy ****!

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

I would make sure no one else at the table has an issue with the character. If it's just the whiner then don't worry about it, but if others are complaining you might be downplaying some issues.

[Deophaun]

Tell the cleric that his presence is only indulged so that he can keep the more competent people going and so that the party has someone to trip if they need to get away from an angry dragon.

[Telonius]

Sometimes just seeing a massive pile of dice being rolled can give the impression of a character being overpowered. Cleric's player is remembering the 50 points of damage you did that one round, not the three rounds you spent not doing any damage and getting into position. That's understandable; it's a typical reaction to remember the exciting thing and forget the boring one. I'd also suggest that he may have been taken aback that you were able to get the damage in against an undead foe. Fighting undead is traditionally seen as where the Cleric is really supposed to shine. He might be feeling that you kind of stole his thunder. (However unreasonable that might be). From what you've described, he's really not playing a Cleric for power. I suspect he doesn't realize just how much he can dominate the game if he wants to, and that might be making him a bit jealous.

[Mordaedil]

He is right in that normally undead are immune to sneak attacks though. But that's why there are spells to bypass this.

[torrasque666]

He is right in that normally undead are immune to sneak attacks though. But that's why there are spells to bypass this.
Not in pathfinder, and given the classes he described the party as, that is the system in question.

[NerdHut]

Little bit of background, our party has a cleric, a fighter (full Archer build), a bard, a summoner, a bloodrager and myself an unchained rogue. We are using all 1st party books and also feats from pow. I had a concept of a super high sneak type knifemaster archtype that others on this forum helped flesh out some. Now that my character is finally coming together (spent all my gold on sneaky stuff and 2 of the other party members loaned me bit for ring of invis. The cleric is complaining that I'm to strong because my sneak is so high and to him I do "too much damage" even though I take 3 + turns to get into position every fight while the Archer does the same damage as me every turn without moving so no prep time for him. When I talked to the cleric about it he said I was too strong and he should be able to wade into battle and do more damage than me + buff, then heal the injured after. This cleric also didn't plan his build at all and is picking stuff just because
it sounds cool. Am I wrong to be offended? Should I be changing my playstyle to be just a crappy fighter that doesn't sneak or scout and just charges in and attacks stuff without flanking?

Usually problems between players due to imbalance stem from a player using a weaker or less versatile class/build getting overshadowed by something like Cleric, Druid, or Wizard. This player sounds to me like he heard Cleric is a powerful class and expects to play the game on easy mode and outshine everyone. That's just speculation, but it's clear he's got a poor attitude. A cleric that does high damage, AND buffs, AND heals is possible, but you have to work to do all three well. I'm guessing he hasn't. On the other hand, it sounds like you've found your niche and stuck to it. You and this player (and probably the DM as well) should talk and find some way to sort this out. But based on what you've said, I don't think the solution should be you changing your character or play style. I think he needs to shift his way of thinking.

[Vyanie]

Not in pathfinder, and given the classes he described the party as, that is the system in question.

yeah, sorry about that tried to flag the thread for pathfinder but was using phone and it doesn't look like it came through.

[Mordaedil]

I caught on that it was Pathfinder. I will admit that, I didn't know that fact about Pathfinder. :smallsmile:

[Vyanie]

Usually problems between players due to imbalance stem from a player using a weaker or less versatile class/build getting overshadowed by something like Cleric, Druid, or Wizard. This player sounds to me like he heard Cleric is a powerful class and expects to play the game on easy mode and outshine everyone. That's just speculation, but it's clear he's got a poor attitude. A cleric that does high damage, AND buffs, AND heals is possible, but you have to work to do all three well. I'm guessing he hasn't. On the other hand, it sounds like you've found your niche and stuck to it. You and this player (and probably the DM as well) should talk and find some way to sort this out. But based on what you've said, I don't think the solution should be you changing your character or play style. I think he needs to shift his way of thinking.

yeah, the DM and I were talking to him earlier and trying to figure out what he was expecting, he even asked the player if he wanted me to look over his character or maybe help him plan some stuff out, we were told no.

Just for reference in case anyone wants to know my character is as follows we did roll for stats and while yes i did get lucky i know he has much higher ones. We are also using elephant in the room the help feat taxes
Human Alternate racial trait Heart of the fey (fun for backstory and gives low light vision)

traits
river rat
reactionary

Stats
str 10
dex 22 (including +2 dex belt, 20 without belt)
con 17
int 14
wis 14
cha 12

Feats
Two weapon fighting
Dodge/mobility
Improved Initiative (about to be retrained for hellcat stealth just lack the required funds to pay for retraining)
Flensing strike
Lurker in darkness (from path of war)

Rogue Talents
Fast stealth
Bleeding attack
Dampen presence
False attacker (bonus from Human fcb)

Items
2x +1 daggers
ring of invis
+2 dex belt
mithril chain
boots (forgot the name) that help vs tremorsense
and a cursed stalkers mask (have not found out what the curse is yet)

The ring 2 other party members helped me buy and one of the members has craft ring and craft wonderous items, so we got the stuff a bit cheaper as he made them.

[Incorrect]

You must counter feelings with data and facts.
Over the next 5 battle, note down how much damage you do, and how much the archer (and maybe the bloodrager) does. Compare this and share the results with the group.
(of cause you must mention this to the archer beforehand, so he don't think you are accusing him of something)

[Vyanie]

While i can compare to the archer..... the bloodrager is another thing entirely... i dont think i have EVER seen someone roll as bad as him... like in my entire life, he is lucky if he rolls higher than a 5 on a 20 side..... he almost took out half the party because he keeps getting crit fumbles (nat 1) he rolled over 6 rounds and 4 of which were nat 1 a 2 and a 7 for his attacks

[Mordaedil]

Looks fine to me, you are just playing a fun build that isn't extremely optimal, even. He's just being sour grapes because he isn't playing his cleric well enough, is what it looks like to me.

You are not in the wrong here.

[Spore]

Do what our rogue did. Get in position and watch the slaughter. Granted our rogue had a perfect in character reason for doing so and no grudge towards the group OOC.

You can however help him by scouting ahead. If you know an encounter is happening the cleric has time to buff up.


You must counter feelings with data and facts.

I work with people A LOT. This does not work unless you have a perfectly reasonable person in front of you. You can however adjust his expectations with facts.

Fact 1) He picked cleric. Clerics have the most defensive spell list of them all - barring smart domain choices. a) Protection from Evil does not do damage. But it keeps the rogue from being mind controlled.
b) Channel positive energy does not do damage (unless undead). But it just keeps you going.
c) Summon Monster I is terrible. II is as well. But starting with III is where it starts to shine (in both duration and power).
d) Divine Favor feels weak. But +1 to attack and damage adds up quickly.

Fact 2) He probably picks the wrong buffs and spells.
Casting more than 1 buff in fight ruins the duration of the other buffs and blocks him from participating in combat. If it is not buffed before fighting, don't do it.
Good duration buffs are: Resist Energy before entering the dungeon (fire or cold are good bets), as are Magic Circle against Evil, etc. Memorize long term buffs and utility spells. Spells like Holy Smite or Bestow Curse look very promising on paper. but dealing with light, invisibility and traps with Daylight, Invisibility Purge and Dimensional Anchor are sometimes vital.

Fact 3) Proofing your worth is a psychological thing (and sometimes just an RP issue).
Yes, instantly stabbing the baddy is probably a good thing to kill him faster. But maybe just delay your action until he casts "Doom[tm]" and then stab him. This at least forces your character to acknowledge your action ingame. And often this results in increased respect towards the player. Despite it being the entirely wrong tactical decision.


like in my entire life, he is lucky if he rolls higher than a 5 on a 20 side...

We play with terrible plastic dice often. They are less imperfect than we think. But they still have balancing issues sometimes. Try trading your dice.

[gkathellar]

(Despite coming off of a quote, the text of my post is aimed mainly at the OP)


You must counter feelings with data and facts.
Over the next 5 battle, note down how much damage you do, and how much the archer (and maybe the bloodrager) does. Compare this and share the results with the group.

This sounds like it could have the unfortunate effect of making the cleric's player angry and defensive. Declaring loudly, "I'm right!" generally causes a situation like this to escalate, regardless of how true the statement is.

To deescalate, it's generally useful to speak from the other party's point of view, and try to achieve synthesis between your perspectives. For example, if the cleric's player says they feel they should be able to buff up and wade in and deal tons of damage, you might respond by providing ideas for them to do exactly that. In doing this, you have to be careful not to come across as patronizing, but in general one of the best ways to turn hostility friendly is to show that your concerns are similar and that you want to help. If your GM is the right sort of person, it could even help to ask them to listen to and provide input on the discussion (which can also help with facilitating solutions).

One thing I've learned from speaking with a developer I respect a great deal is that a lot of the problems in TTRPGs are problems of perceptions and expectations. From your description, the cleric's player sounds frustrated with their own character, probably because it diverges significantly from the character they'd expected they'd be playing. What matters is probably not whether you're in the wrong or in the right (although it is a sign of your maturity that you're considering the possibility that you're in the wrong), but rather how you can bring the situation and expectations together. Aim either to help the cleric rethink their character and/or tactics so as to meet their own expectations, or to rethink their expectations to match what their character is already good at. Being open and honest about your relative levels of optimization may also be helpful if your GM is willing to let the cleric's player make some adjustments.

It is worth noting that the Unchained Rogue specifically has phenomenal single-target damage, and that in many respects that's what your character should specifically excel at. There's no reason to downplay this point, and you should be able to tell the cleric's player, "I'm playing an Unchained Rogue because I wanted to be good at this thing," without worsening the conflict, so long as you can help them understand what they should be good at.

Anyway, these are my thoughts, and I hope you can find a solution!

[RoboEmperor]

You guys got it all wrong.
Say:
1. Clerics are superior in every way possible.
2. Learn the game and get good.
3. Quit crying like a ***** just because you suck at this game.
4. Why should I deal the same damage as you, who spent literally 0 seconds on your build when I spent hours and hours?

Use nicer words. No need for comparisons or any other ****.

[Andor13]

He's playing a Cleric and complaining that a rogue is too powerful. Woo-boy.

It sounds like he wants to play a support character and also hog the spotlight. I have two suggestions and some questions:
1) Point out that a lot of his power lies in his buffs, if he wants to shine he should be holding the fighter back a round or two to cast so he can pump himself up. (It's purely coincidental that you need those same rounds to get into position, honest.)
2) Sing his praises whenever he contributes. If you hit by 1, tell him "Good thing you cast that bless, or I would have done bupkis."

Questions:
Why are you not benefiting from bard song? Listening doesn't break stealth.
How are you scouting, but not able to get into position? They're making you go in, come back and report, and then ignoring you when you want to go back out? Your party is made of idiots if so. Ideally you could come up with a way to communicate without breaking position/stealth. A telepathic collective would be great, but I don't know how to get one without 3 levels of investment in a class. (Tactician/Zealot/Vitalist)
Why the boots and Lurker in Darkness?

[EldritchWeaver]

While i can compare to the archer..... the bloodrager is another thing entirely... i dont think i have EVER seen someone roll as bad as him... like in my entire life, he is lucky if he rolls higher than a 5 on a 20 side..... he almost took out half the party because he keeps getting crit fumbles (nat 1) he rolled over 6 rounds and 4 of which were nat 1 a 2 and a 7 for his attacks

Just a sidenote: Don't use critical fumbles. These merely screws over people who have many attacks per round compared to spellcasters, which can get by without rolling attack dice.

[Solaris]

Suggest the cleric's player read Harrison Bergeron (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron).

Countering feels with logic doesn't work. You need to fight feels with feels.

[KillianHawkeye]

Okay, stop offering to help the Cleric player improve his character. That is not what he wants and he'll just get offended that you think he needs help. A lot of people unfortunately think this way.

Basically, he thinks that your character is too good, not that his character isn't good enough. In his mind, he is right and you are wrong, so he's not the one who has to change, you are. He isn't being rational, which is why I said before that you should learn to ignore his complaints.

Facts and logic will absolutely fail against this sort of person.

[Elkad]

/blue. "Shut up and make me a sammich heal me.

[JNAProductions]

I'll second the people saying "Talk to the rest of the party". If everyone feels you're too powerful, then maybe you should work with the DM to tone your build down/improve their builds. If it's just the Cleric... Be nice to him, but tell him that you put in work to make your character strong, and you're not going to get rid of all that to help one person in a group of five feel better.

[Acanous]

Respond to his complaints as though they are compliments. “I’m too sneaky? Thanks! I worked really hard to get this sneaky. I do tons of damage? Great! That’s what I was going for. You think my character could beat yours and there’s nothing you could do about it? Well that’s a moot point, we’re on the same team.”

[Keltest]

Laugh at him. Seriously.

Clerics are T1. They are DMM:Persist. They break games, so tell him to fcking get good. It is absolutely sad when a caster, a t1 at that, tells a mundane he's too strong and should power down. Holy ****!

Brutally put, but I agree with the spirit here. Its definitely his problem for playing his character so ineffectually, not yours for working hard to contribute.

[Quertus]

There are only two things to balance to: the party, and the module. This sounds like a question of the former.

So, how does this party stand? Well, we don't really have enough information to be sure. Here's what we do know: when properly set up, the Rogue deals as much damage as the Archer. Ok, so maybe those two are almost balanced?

A third PC might be equally optimized, but it's hard to tell, as his player can't roll well. Ok, I'll leave that to your group to decide if that merits buffing his character or not to let him contribute equally despite his player.

The Cleric doesn't deal that level of damage. But he wants to. Just like he wants to buff and heal and dish out damage.

Well, if that cleric was dealing the same damage as the big damage dealers in the party, he would, by virtue if getting to do other things, too, have greater narrative contribution than those who just deal damage. So the fact that he deals less damage is balanced - if you assume that the big damage dealers have no other narrative contribution.

But, we know that's not true. The Rogue gets to scout. And - while a slightly different class of perk, it still matters here - the Rogue has convinced the party to give him extra money, and the GM has included undead that are vulnerable to sneak attack damage*.

So, if the Rogue was consistently dealing top-tier damage, and was scouting, and his player had great social skills to manipulate the party (and GM?) to give him bonuses, while the Archer only had damage as his shtick, then, yeah, the Rogue would totally be unbalanced, and I'd suggest scaling him back. Or I'd say that the party's seemingly horrible tactics in excluding the Rogue from set-up time might actually be a subtle balancing factor.

However, if everyone has multiple shticks, if everyone is contributing in multiple ways, things get more complex. But, in this scenario, it sounds like the Cleric is not balanced with the Archer and Rogue - but may (?) be balanced with the rest of the party.

Think carefully about everyone's narrative contribution, then, if you feel confident that you aren't being a spotlight hog, ask the party why they're such tactical idiots, not letting you get set up, if it's a detriment to your fun. In fact, if it's a detriment to your fun, consider taking something (item, a level in a class, whatever) that would let you communicate with the party while you are still scouting / while you are set up.

* I don't know Pathfinder, I'm just taking this from the OP's description.


Okay, stop offering to help the Cleric player improve his character. That is not what he wants and he'll just get offended that you think he needs help. A lot of people unfortunately think this way.

Basically, he thinks that your character is too good, not that his character isn't good enough. In his mind, he is right and you are wrong, so he's not the one who has to change, you are. He isn't being rational, which is why I said before that you should learn to ignore his complaints.

Facts and logic will absolutely fail against this sort of person.

Reading this, I am reminded of the time the party thought I was playing a horribly unbalanced character. Now, admittedly, I rolled some nice stays on my godlike character, but, despite that, and contrary to the belief of certain players, they weren't the best in the party. Further, in double-digit sessions, my contribution to the game was absolutely zero. The only damage I did was to a creature that was killed in someone else's AoE, alongside half a dozen or so of its unwounded kin, so my damage was meaningless. I never moved the plot forward. I contributed exactly nothing to that game. And some of the players had the gall to complain that I was unbalanced!

Humans are not even remotely reasonable beings at times.

In that vein, perhaps the issue here is that the Rogue is always hiding, invisible, etc - that he never gets hurt, and never needs the Cleric? Just a thought.