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Durendal
2007-09-04, 04:43 PM
So I've been toying around with creating a homebrew campaign world for some time now and I finally started to write out some of my ideas. With the announcement of 4e and all the "this class ate this class and took his stuff" I wanted to limit the amount of classes to reflect some of the upcoming changes. So heres the list of classes I intend to include with some minor changes:

Warblade instead of the fighter
Crusader instead of the paladin
Swordsage instead of the monk/ninja/dervish/swashbuckler
Warlock instead of the sorceror (this is the one change I'm most unsure of)
Wizard
Duskblade (Along with the archivist this is meant to replace the bard)
Archivist
Druid sans wildshape but gets full cure spell progression
Cleric
Rogue gets bonus to AC like monk but while in light armor
Scout instead of ranger, but gets 6+int skills (instead of 8) and full BAB
Barbarian

Thats how it looks now, but I'm open to suggestions on the changes I've made, especially about balance issues.

Yakk
2007-09-04, 05:24 PM
So I've been toying around with creating a homebrew campaign world for some time now and I finally started to write out some of my ideas. With the announcement of 4e and all the "this class ate this class and took his stuff" I wanted to limit the amount of classes to reflect some of the upcoming changes. So heres the list of classes I intend to include with some minor changes:

Warblade instead of the fighter
Crusader instead of the paladin
Swordsage instead of the monk/ninja/dervish/swashbuckler

Ok, that produces a base power level. :)


Warlock instead of the sorceror (this is the one change I'm most unsure of)

Give the Warlock the Bard spell progression from the Wizard spell list, using Charisma. :) That should be a nice toy for the Warlock class, if you are uncertain about it. It also allows the Wizard spells to be shared amoung more than one class.

Scarily enough, the Wizard is probably still a better class, even with that new set of abilities.

What fluff will you use for the Warlock? Deals with demons?


Wizard

You do know that Wizards are very strong? Too many spells, with too many game breaking effects...


Duskblade (Along with the archivist this is meant to replace the bard)
Archivist

Sure.


Druid sans wildshape but gets full cure spell progression

Bah, Wildshape is great flavour -- it is the crunch that is the problem. Get better crunch. :)


Cleric

Not doing anything about Clericzilla? I suppose with the Fighter gone, the Cleric is welcome to become a Fighter-plus. But what about the Barbarian?


Rogue gets bonus to AC like monk but while in light armor

The raw monk AC bonus? Or a bonus based off of Wisdom as well?


Scout instead of ranger, but gets 6+int skills (instead of 8) and full BAB

Sure. :) Do you really like the skirmish rules? I've heard some complaints.


Barbarian

Berzerker! But might the Barbarian be a bit overshadowed by the Tome of Battle super-fighters? Or ClericZilla?


Thats how it looks now, but I'm open to suggestions on the changes I've made, especially about balance issues.

Durendal
2007-09-04, 05:45 PM
@Yakk: I like your idea about the warlock, it seems like it could work. As for the wizard and cleric, I know their both over powered, but I wasnt sure how to fix that. The rogue would probably get the wisdom bonus to AC, but I had even thought about changing it to Int based. I wasn't sure about the Barbarian, mostly becuase I've never seen a "fix" for him. Oh, and how would you go about changing the wildshape crunch to be less broken?

Yakk
2007-09-04, 06:19 PM
One way of making magic classes less-broken is to build classes with weaker spell progression and better other abilities.

6th level spells at L 20 are less broken than 9th level spells at L 20.

This places level 7 8 and 9 spells in the realm of Epicness and/or mass ritual spells, but requires you to homebrew up caster classes with special abilities to make up for their lack of spells/day and spell levels...

...

Some things you can do to mitigate druid wild shape is to make the change modify instead of replace physical stats: If you transform into a 20(+5) str bear, you get +5 to your str, instead of just getting 20 str.

Second, the Druid learns 1 new shape per level. These can be looked at by the GM.

Third, the Druid gets 1 hour of wildshape per "use", and during that hour can switch back and forth as a standard action (gets rid of some "stay in bear form" fluff cheese). (Also, kill the heal-on-change rule.)

Forth, you cannot use magic items or gear in animal form. Period.

Fifth, you cannot cast spells in animal form. Period.

You can, however, cast spells on yourself and have them apply when you change shape -- ie, Magic Fang, then transform.

Sixth, the elemental forms refer to the named creatures, not types. The same stat-modification rules apply. Each "charge" lasts for 10 rounds (1 minute), not hours/day.

...

All of this makes the Druids wild shapes a combat option, but not all that effective of one. It also gets rid of a bunch of the cheese.

...

Fluff-based Exception: if the Druid is in the natural environment of the creature shaped into and behaves naturally from the moment of transformation (giving up temporary control of themselves to the DM), they can remain wild shaped indefinitely.

StickMan
2007-09-04, 06:21 PM
See player handbook two for both the barbarian and the Druid fixes.

Deesix
2007-09-04, 06:52 PM
PHBII has an amazing Druid fix that I like much better than wildshape. Barbarian, though, needs more work than just the Berzerker stuff from the same book.

Anxe
2007-09-04, 08:33 PM
Make the rogue ac bonus based of off intelligence. Wisdom is a dump stat for Rogues.

Yakk
2007-09-04, 08:45 PM
AC for rogues should so be based off of Charisma!

It should be a boost to their AC-from-dex. So a high charisma and dex rogue would wear less armor...

Durendal
2007-09-04, 08:55 PM
Yeah, so after reviewing the PHB2 druid varient I think I'll use both the spontaneous rejuvenation and the shapeshift varients while revoking my previous changes.

For the oh so problematic Clericzilla I'm thinking of removing the medium and heavy armor profs and limiting them to one domain.

I like the idea of shifting the wizards spell progression, but I'm open to suggestions for abilities ideas. I was thinking of something to reduce the cost of metamagic feats and maybe some bonuses to their familiars.

[edit]After seeing Yaks post i agree that the rogues AC bonus should be Cha based[ /edit] But I'm still unsure about the barbarian. Maybe give him some limited ToB manuever access from Tiger Claw and Stone Dragon.

StickMan
2007-09-04, 10:04 PM
Why not give him the players handbook two stuff and normal rage I know that will make him strong as heck but he is Barbarian so it fits, always felt like Barbarian should be more hulkish then they are.

Durendal
2007-09-04, 10:23 PM
That might work. Start out Raging, then go f-ing Berzerk when he drops below 5*level health.

Also, an idea for the Wizard. Since it would be either a)odd to just limit the wizard to a shifted spell progression while the druid and cleric still get 9th level spells at 17 or b) too much work to create all new abilities for all three classes to compensate for the lower spell progession, why not just limit the number of schools of magic the wizard has access to. Kinda like how the ToB classes each only have access to a few of the disciplines, just limit the wizard to 3 or 4 of the schools of magic and the universal spells. That would help to eliminate much of the Batman-ness of wizards and makes sense with my view of wizards as students of magic. Wizards would only have time to focus their studies on a few areas of the mysteries of magic, much like in college where you focus your studies on one or two majors. (I know some people are crazy and do more, but seriously, they aren't normal) The warlock could still have access to all the schools since he has an innate connection to magic and a more limited amount of spells

Macrovore
2007-09-04, 10:27 PM
AC for rogues should so be based off of Charisma!

It should be a boost to their AC-from-dex. So a high charisma and dex rogue would wear less armor...

I would make rogues choose between CHA and INT for AC. Rogues are very varied in outlook, and having that choice can reflect that.

Durendal
2007-09-05, 12:09 PM
Letting the rogues choose which stat intrigues me. It would definitely differeniate the charisma "party face" rogues from the intelligence "skill monkey" rogues.

Another thought, I kinda want to give the warblade heavy armor prof becuase hes supposed to be replacing the fighter. It's a descent buff to an already good class, but I think it fits the diverse image the fighter tried to portray.

Any comments on my plan to limit the number of schools wizards can utilize?

Vadin
2007-09-05, 04:08 PM
I've honestly never found wizards or CoDzilla to be a problem so long as the game is kept in the early levels (namely 5-10ish). After that power tends to be a bit bonkers as full casters suddenly begin an exponential power progression while warlock, barbarians, rogues, and pretty much everyone else EVER follows a linear pattern. And yes, barbarians do need a power bump. Using full rage and the full PHB2 variant, however...well, lets just say we've tried that, and its absolute madness. The man took down an adult dragon! It was chaos! Reducing the healing factor startup time to, say, 2 or 3 times his level and for CON modifier rounds after he's healed up to that point still adds to his flavor as a battle hungry maniac who never stops while keeping his power level in line with some of the other classes.

Also, that's and EXCELLENT class list. Kudos on giving the heads up to which classes you were replacing.

KillianHawkeye
2007-09-05, 04:28 PM
Any comments on my plan to limit the number of schools wizards can utilize?

You could do something similar to how it was done in the Wheel of Time RPG, and make the character take a feat for each school. Then you can give them a better bonus feat progression and add the new feats to their list of options (along with metamagic & item creation feats).

If you don't want to have a single feat allow the entire school, you can have one feat allow spells up to 3rd level from the selected school and the next feat granting spells up to 6th level from that school (and another for 9th level if you're including the full spell progression). And they wouldn't need any feats to cast 0-Level spells from any school. You should probably allow them to pick 2 or 3 of these feats for free at 1st level, but the rest is up to them with their feat/bonus feat selections.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-09-05, 04:39 PM
A few things:

Barbarians are going to be weak tea compared to the ToB classes. Warblade gets D12 hit die, heavy armor, and a BUNCH of extremely nasty stuff.

Archivists are horridly broken, possibly moreso than the wizards are.

May I point you to my own Scout (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43579) rewrite? It's got the rogue/ranger feel without the annoying Sneak Attack stuff. It's a good Skill Monkey, Trap Springer, Tracker, Point Man... but it isn't all that awsome in melee (3.4 BAB, D6 HD, light armor only), which is probably as it should be. Instead of precision-based damage, they can get crit multiplier and range upgrades, which are functionally similar, but better flavor.

Warlock needs more to compete in this environment. It's already weak tea, the power level in your game is higher than usual, so it's going to be even weaker tea. Giving them Bard spell progression Cha based on the Wiz spell list would do much for their usefullness.

Cleric: I suggest you tell your people in advance you are removing Divine power and Righteous Might from the spell list, including from Domain spell lists. Or you can use my custom Priest (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2797302#post2797302) class, which is basically a cloth wearing metamagic goodness cleric who can spontaniously both inflict and cure, and can only turn/destroy.

Druid. PhB II fix. Seriously.

Rogue. Going to look like weak tea again, but can be nasty if done right. Get a Warblade with Clarion Call and make Intimidate checks to keep opponents flanked for awsome damage, or just use Wall of Blades for insane flanking opportunities. Awsome synergy with a TWF rogue.

Wizard: here's what I'd do... insist on all wizards being specialists, ban one additional school. Prohibit full spellcasting PrC's. Done.

Durendal
2007-09-05, 09:35 PM
@ShneekeyTheLost: I dont necesscarily agree that the archivist is broken, especially with the classes I'm including. What most people have a problem with is that the archivist can learn any divine spell. If you'll notice I've drastically reduced the number of divine spellcasters out there, so this helps to limit the possibility of a player picking up the random stuff off paladin spell lists, ranger lists, shugenja lists, etc. Also, it helps if the DM doesnt allow the player access to every spell from every random suplement out there.

That said I already agreed that the warlock should get the bard's caster progression and access to the wizard spell list. (who else is going to use it) And I never said I was removing any spells from the cleric, just limiting them to one domain and light armor. (similar to your preist)

Lastly, the ToB classes really only do one thing, fight. Most of them dont have the skills points or right skills to do anything outside of battle. Thats why I dont mind the scout and rogue being slightly less effctive in battle becuase they get to do more out of it. And in my opinion an effective DM tailors his campiagns to the players. So if there is a scout in the party, give him something to track outside of combat so that every player gets a chance to shine.

RelentlessImp
2007-09-05, 10:33 PM
If you don't want to have a single feat allow the entire school, you can have one feat allow spells up to 3rd level from the selected school and the next feat granting spells up to 6th level from that school (and another for 9th level if you're including the full spell progression).


^ Good idea there, both of them (feat for schools, feat for X level of spells). Another good idea would be to combine them; have them take somewhere around 2-4 feats at first level to specify how many schools of spells they understand well enough to actually cast from, and then other feats to increase their understanding of those spells, allowing them to cast higher level spells from those schools. Just let them have those beginner feats let them cast up to, say, 2nd or 3rd level spells, then go from there.

I don't really agree with Duskblade replacing Bard; maybe Hexblade instead? A Bard's primary function is their music, after all; bolstering their companions' abilities and/or reducing their opponents. Hexblades can do the latter with their Curse ability.

Instead of Archivist/Cleric, maybe modify the Generic Divine Spellcaster class - such as giving them the choice to cast 9th level spells (No armor/weapons) or the ability to stand toe-to-toe in combat with 5th or 6th level spells backing them up, and just let it be one class with two different functions.

Just some ideas. I love the class list.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-09-05, 11:33 PM
@ShneekeyTheLost: I dont necesscarily agree that the archivist is broken, especially with the classes I'm including. What most people have a problem with is that the archivist can learn any divine spell. If you'll notice I've drastically reduced the number of divine spellcasters out there, so this helps to limit the possibility of a player picking up the random stuff off paladin spell lists, ranger lists, shugenja lists, etc. Also, it helps if the DM doesnt allow the player access to every spell from every random suplement out there.

Divine Power and Righteous Might break this. Toys break this far far worse.


That said I already agreed that the warlock should get the bard's caster progression and access to the wizard spell list. (who else is going to use it) And I never said I was removing any spells from the cleric, just limiting them to one domain and light armor. (similar to your preist)
If you don't ban Divine Power and Righteous Might, you're going to get CoDzillas who make even ToB classes weak tea in a fight.


Lastly, the ToB classes really only do one thing, fight. Most of them dont have the skills points or right skills to do anything outside of battle. Thats why I dont mind the scout and rogue being slightly less effctive in battle becuase they get to do more out of it. And in my opinion an effective DM tailors his campiagns to the players. So if there is a scout in the party, give him something to track outside of combat so that every player gets a chance to shine.

Right, but what about the Barbarian? He's not a skill monky like the rogue or the scout (and did you check out my scout variant?), who has a use outside combat. Barbarian is small beer beside any ToB class, but doesn't have anything to offer but fighting. Either just remove it or throw him a bone.

Durendal
2007-09-06, 02:16 AM
Hmm...theres been alot of good input about the wizard so far, now I just have to decide how to go about fixing him.

@RelentlessImp: The duskblade and archivist were both supposed to represent a replacement for the bard in funtionality. The duskblade representing the bards ability to cast spells and melee, while the archivists dark knowledge feature is pretty similar to bardic knowledge while debuffing enemies/buffing allies. But I agree, neither represents the bards knack for combining music, melee, and magic. Oh, and I'm just not a fan of the hexblade; don't know, he just never struck me as all that interesting.

That said heres the updated class list with the changes I intend to implement:

Warblade: now with heavy armor prof
Crusader
Swordsage
Wizard: working on a fix
Warlock: gets bards spell progression and access to wizard spell list
Duskblade: maybe some more spells
Archivist: I might prune thier spell list
Cleric: 1 domain, only light armor, nerf Divine Power and Righteous Might a bit
Druid: Using both PHII variants
Rogue: Monk-like AC bonus, but choose bewteen Cha or Int based. I'm also considering giving them some abilities similar to the ninja's.
Scout: full BAB, 6+ skills instead of 8+, and track (trapfinding will probably get bumped to 2nd level)
Barbarian:gets a form of the PHII berserker ability in addition to rage(thanks for the heads up Vadin) and track @ lvl 2. (also I always thought they should get spot and balance to their skill lists)