Gestalt un-optimization?

[Waifu]

So, my DM and I had a little idea, and I'd like to see if it's possible. I can make a gestalt character, but only if its power level is as powerful, if not less powerful, as a standard character of the same level. Assuming everyone else is only semi-optimized, could I pull it off? I was thinking something like a Shifter Monk/Ninja with the ascetic stalker feat, but I feel like I could do better.

[Celestia]

Commoner/CW Samurai
If that's not weak enough, I don't know what is. :smalltongue:

[emeraldstreak]

Shifter Monk/Ninja

Too strong.

[Fouredged Sword]

Assuming the "Average character" is a tier 2/3 character played competently.

Bard // marshal
Warmage // duskblade
Fighter // Barbarian
Fighter // rogue

[Quertus]

I mean, I could use wizard // cleric, play them like Quertus, and they'd likely still not outshine any remotely competent party.

But, for maximum anti-synergy, try taking one level of Wizard, one level of Cleric, one level of Druid, one level of Fighter, one level of Rogue, one level of Bard, etc etc // Aristocrat X. You're that guy who just can't figure out what he wants to be when he grows up. :smallwink:

EDIT: bonus points if your first level is in Barbarian, and you're illiterate to boot.

[Peat]

Knight // Monk

The abilities are pretty mutually incompatible and rely on two different mental stats, leaving one really MAD Martial with a group of abilities usually seen as subpar.

[NomGarret]

Hexblade//Soulborn could be almost ok. You gain next to nothing chassis-wise. The abilities aren’t redundant, but they’re so strictly limited and don’t really stack.

[GrayDeath]

Jokes aside, if the aim is not to outshine "normal" CLasses with "normal" Optimiation, I`dopt for one of the following 2 (each assuming the party does not ahve anyone else filling the niche).

Rogue/Warlock, with mostly blastshapes and utility Evocations (Walk Unseen of couse) for the ultimate ranged Sneak Attack one hit kills versus Touch AC. And some skills/Crafting,and nothing else even remotely dangerous to normal casters, real CC beat sticks etc.

or

Barbarian/Paladin of Freedom, for the Ultimate "Good Wild Guy" with tank and DD Ability in Close combat but nothing really utilitywise (and of course not regarding spellcasting).


Both fun to play, both useful in ther niche, both worse or at most equal to "normally optimized normally played" Charaters.

[gkathellar]

This has actually been proposed as a "simple" solution to imbalances in class power, but it really depends on the group and the GM, as "power" is always dependent on the player and the specific build, always variable by circumstances, and sometimes a bit unpredictable (as there can be deceptively powerful features buried in generally weak classes - see things like Dungeoncrasher fighter, which can be very attractive even to higher-op builds). There are also some odd cases where the gestalt simply won't add much - a monk//fighter, for instance, isn't actually all that different from a straight fighter.

Basically, I'd say it's totally doable, and I suggest picking Tier 4-6 classes, and making sure to talk with your GM about your decisions. Make sure you know what other folks at the table are doing, so you can establish a baseline.

[The Shadowmind]

A Healer/Marhsall is both useful and weak. And probably isn't very fun to play.

[flappeercraft]

You could get Psychic Warrior and Fighter for a ****ton of feats and some minor manifesting. I don't think it would be that broken tbh, it compensates for the amount of feat taxes that good fighter feats have.

[Zombulian]

Truenamer//Swashbuckler

Net yourself a d10 HD, full BAB, 2 good saves, a slightly expanded but not too expansive skill list (like adding bluff and diplomacy, which should really already be on the Truenamer list), and some added SAD with Int to damage.
Gives you a pretty weird but workable gish, definitely not that strong but could be interesting.

[137beth]

Commoner/CW Samurai
If that's not weak enough, I don't know what is. :smalltongue:

Commoner//Anything else is not much different from the anything else non-gestalted. I think the only difference would be that you get a few more class skills.

[Nifft]

So, my DM and I had a little idea, and I'd like to see if it's possible. I can make a gestalt character, but only if its power level is as powerful, if not less powerful, as a standard character of the same level. Assuming everyone else is only semi-optimized, could I pull it off? I was thinking something like a Shifter Monk/Ninja with the ascetic stalker feat, but I feel like I could do better. We need to hear what "average character" means.

Is the average character a single-class Druid?

Or is the average character a single-class Fighter?


Commoner//Anything else is not much different from the anything else non-gestalted. I think the only difference would be that you get a few more class skills. Chicken Infested will cluck you up.

[daremetoidareyo]

Truenamer//Swashbuckler

Net yourself a d10 HD, full BAB, 2 good saves, a slightly expanded but not too expansive skill list (like adding bluff and diplomacy, which should really already be on the Truenamer list), and some added SAD with Int to damage.
Gives you a pretty weird but workable gish, definitely not that strong but could be interesting.

Shadowcaster/Swashbuckler is a nice one too

[Rebel7284]

I mean, clearly it's possible.

Gestalt X // Commoner is equal to X

Gestalt tends to give you more options, but you can optimize to whatever level you want by taking the options that are appropriate to your group.

A big part of it is defining what a standard/normal character is for you.

[mabriss lethe]

Monk//Adept is actually quite fun.

[Zombulian]

Monk//Adept is actually quite fun.

Oh yeah that actually sounds pretty solid.

[Fouredged Sword]

Rogue 1 / Bard 19// duskblade 20

Mad as hell, crazy like a fox.

But you are a 1 man adventuring party.

[Telonius]

Knight // Monk

The abilities are pretty mutually incompatible and rely on two different mental stats, leaving one really MAD Martial with a group of abilities usually seen as subpar.

Hmm, Vow of Peace on that would be kind of absurd as a variation on the Saint Bertold build. It even gets past the big problem with it, namely low DC for Test of Mettle in the traditional build. Just go in unarmored, Test of Mettle, and have your enemies hopelessly flail away at you and break their weapons.

[Nifft]

Guess we're not getting much more detail on the target range. I'll stick to T3 (single-class) as the goal.


Incarnate // Rogue - You have a thing to do in combat, and you have a lot of things to do outside of combat. Incarnate makes skills scale in a way that somewhat compensates for not having spells.


Dragonfire Adept // Marshal - Relatively dull in play, and the rest of the party will tend to benefit more than you, but your Diplomacy check can be absurd. Everyone listens when the Dragon General talks.


Warlock // Spellthief - You're that unlucky & envious person who resents real spellcasters. So, you take their toys for your own use. Your worse-than-normal Sneak Attack is decent in combo with Eldritch Blast, and surprisingly effective at higher levels if you can flank with Eldritch Glaive.


Dragonfire Adept // Paladin - Take the Dragonscale Husk option (from Dragon Magic) to avoid wearing heavy armor. Proclaim yourself the emissary of Bahamut.

[Cosi]

Depending on the party, you could be fairly effective by combining a class with effective combat options but limited non-combat options (depending on exact level of optimization, Barbarian, Warblade, and Rogue are all okay) with one that has the converse (Adept, low-op Bard, Magewright). Warblade//Adept is probably reasonable-ish in many parties.

[Dr_Dinosaur]

What about Warlock/Mountebank for maximum "sold my soul" flavor? Or Spellthief/Soulknife?

[daremetoidareyo]

VOP soulknife/ninja with intuitive attack for wis to ac, ki, and to hit.

You got an upgradable magic sword, so no VOP problems there.

[Nifft]

VOP soulknife/ninja with intuitive attack for wis to ac, ki, and to hit.

You got an upgradable magic sword, so no VOP problems there.

VoP provides an Enhancement bonus to melee attacks which overlaps with the mindblade's progression, so it's not quite as good... but if you jump into Soulbow, you can get a VoP non-caster with ranged attacks, and Wis to attack and damage. Just take two levels of Soulknife (and let the VoP enhancement bonus keep your Mindblade mildly relevant).

Ninja 20 on one side, that's a good call. Soulknife 2 / Soulbow 10 on the other side. That gives you three open levels of prefix on the Soul(knife/bow) side, and five free levels after.

Maybe something like... Ninja 20 // Soulknife 1 / Swashbuckler 3 / Soulknife +1 / Soulbow 10 / ____ 5

[mabriss lethe]

Ninja 20 on one side, that's a good call. Soulknife 2 / Soulbow 10 on the other side. That gives you three open levels of prefix on the Soul(knife/bow) side, and five free levels after.

Maybe something like... Ninja 20 // Soulknife 1 / Swashbuckler 3 / Soulknife +1 / Soulbow 10 / ____ 5

What about filling in the last few levels with Pyrokineticist (or preferably an alternate energy type as per the Mind's Eye article, my vote is for Sonokineticist.)