Did not realize this was a houserule at first

[PhantasyPen]

Hey all, so I hae been going over my campaigns from my past few years or so of playing, and one thing I've noticed that I've always done but did not initially realize was wrong is say that any skill you learn from your class is always a class skill for you, even if you multiclass, and if you had a cross-class skill that became a class skill or gained a permanent INT buff you gained retroactive skill points to accommodate. None of my players really went crazy with this rule and it was sort of an unspoken assumption as the thread states I did not realize I was houseruling these things at first, I genuinely thought this was how the game played. What I would like to know is just how these unintentional rules changes have been affecting my campaigns over the years from a ForumOp perspective.

[daremetoidareyo]

Its totally fine and only hurts the slightest bit of niche protection of the rogue base class. I find that as a player, in starving for skill points all the time.

[Zombulian]

I think it's a fine houserule. The idea that you could train in a skill and then just because you picked up a different class continuing to progress your, say, Balance ranks is TWICE as hard was always silly to me.
The houserule also reduces the common Human supremacy in skill-focused characters because it essentially removes the need for the Able Learner feat. Gnomes can be skillful too damnit!

[Nifft]

In general, skills aren't particularly game-breaking, so I'd expect the impact to be minimal.

Letting PCs collect class skills is not going to affect balance much, except insofar as they could multi-class a little bit more organically and still meet PrC prereqs.

[lylsyly]

I have always done this. Once a Class Skill ALWAYS a Class Skill. Period. No nonsense about cross class points, ect. I even add 2 Skill Points to each class.

Of course, my DMing style matches this. You never know when I will make you roll a Skill Check (are my horns showing)

[heavyfuel]

Yup, I've always played with "once a class skill, always a class skill" and only discovered it was a houserule when I first saw the "Able Learner" feat. It's really not a problem.


The idea that you could train in a skill and then just because you picked up a different class continuing to progress your, say, Balance ranks is TWICE as hard was always silly to me.

I think the designers' idea was that leveling up (and the skill ranks associated with it) are a result of your training before the level up.

So a Rogue 3 that got his first level in Fighter at lv 4 is presumed to have trained as a Fighter for the entirety of the 3rd level. You don't gain all those proficiencies and feat and Fortitude out of nowhere...

And during this time the character spent learning how to wear armor, fighting with a bunch of different weapons, practicing his Maneuver (Martial Study being the Fighter feat of choice), endurance running, bulking up, etc, he just doesn't have time to practice Opening Locks like he used to before and, thus, it takes more of an effort to improve in that particular area.

It makes sense from a design perspective, even if it's a bad rule.

[Goaty14]

Naturally, this buffs Truenamers.

[Falontani]

Naturally, this buffs Truenamers.

That's bad. Truenamers are already too powerful, so we definitely can't let this houserule stand. How could you add something that makes Truenamers the most powerful T0 even more powerful!

[daremetoidareyo]

That's bad. Truenamers are already too powerful, so we definitely can't let this houserule stand. How could you add something that makes Truenamers the most powerful T0 even more powerful!

double truenamer gestalt!

[Nifft]

double truenamer gestalt!

Dragonwrought Truenamer => twice as true

[Kelb_Panthera]

Most likely the impact has been pretty minimal. Skills don't usually get crazy unless you really push them pretty hard.

[lylsyly]

Hey, Truenamer ain't so bad, unless you really "want" to play a commoner.

[Quertus]

This rule seems fine. I do love though that people are focusing on the (more common) "once a class skill, always a class skill" (there's a feat for that), and not the more unique "retroactively a class skill", or retroactive skill points for increased intelligence. That last one is especially fine, as it makes PCs and monsters play the same game, because monsters have always gotten retroactive skill points as they grow up.

[ryu]

As it benefits everyone equally I'd actually say it's good for balance. The strong choices already have everything. So giving everyone something lowers the power gap.

[Bohandas]

Honestly this is one of those things that should have been official but inexplicably wasn't (along with free multiclassing, fractional base bonuses, and ability modifier just being ability score divided by 2 {with non-opposed dcs and base armor class adjusted upward by 5})

Honestly non-retroactive skills don;t seem to serve any purpose other than to make it unnecessarily difficult to properly generate high-level characters

[Telonius]

"Free Able Learner" can make it slightly easier to meet some PrC or feat prerequisites without neglecting your regularly-scheduled skills. Or, if a PrC doesn't have a skill that's useful to your base, you could still keep it maxed with no cross-class penalty. For example, a character could take Rogue3/Wizard5, and not spend double skill points on getting that seventh rank of Disable Device and Escape Artist and qualifying for Arcane Trickster (without going Rogue4 and missing out on yet another caster level). If he wants to be good at Use Magic Device (and most Rogues do), that's 17 other skill points (17 non-rogue levels in the build) across his career that he can spend on anything else. So between the two extra from prereqs and 17 saved from UMD, you've saved 19 skill points just off the bat.

19 extra skill points aren't going to break the game, but it's going to make some sort of a difference. I think that difference isn't a bad thing. The classes that multiclass most frequently (Fighter and the rest of the melee classes generally) need a bump in power. It can help somebody who's not building for Ultimate Arcane Power (like Arcane Trickster) get there a little easier and have a more skillful character when you're done.

As for retroactive skill points due to Int gain ... I'd generally be against that. Any ability that deals permanent INT drain would work in the opposite direction, and it would be a gigantic pain in the butt keeping everything straight and figuring out which skills you advanced when.

[ryu]

To keep retroactive int points simple maybe only calculate at long term INT changes? An int item you never intend to remove? Sure. Level up stat allocated to int? Sure. Tome of int? Sure. Temp buff or debuff? No. All the benefits of the int rule with non of the stupid fiddly bits that have no effect for a few rounds only to make you do it again when stuff is normal.

[Nifft]

To keep retroactive int points simple maybe only calculate at long term INT changes? An int item you never intend to remove? Sure. Level up stat allocated to int? Sure. Tome of int? Sure. Temp buff or debuff? No. All the benefits of the int rule with non of the stupid fiddly bits that have no effect for a few rounds only to make you do it again when stuff is normal.

I gave retroactive Int perks to non-gear, non-expiring changes to Intelligence.

- Headband? Nope, too easy to lose.
- Tome? Sure, that lasts forever.
- Racial Paragon? All yours.
- Level up? 100% yes.

[Segev]

In pathfinder, they neatly (I think) solved this problem by making your skill rank cap your level (rather than level+3), and the only thing that a class skill gets is a +3 bonus when you have at least 1 rank. So, essentially, all class skills for any class ARE class skills forever, since you got that +3 to them from whatever class gave it to you.

Oh, and there's no double-cost for non-class skills. You just don't get the +3 for it being a class skill.

It's one of the better rules changes in PF, in my opinion.

[ryu]

I gave retroactive Int perks to non-gear, non-expiring changes to Intelligence.

- Headband? Nope, too easy to lose.
- Tome? Sure, that lasts forever.
- Racial Paragon? All yours.
- Level up? 100% yes.

Eh not really. With proper gear protection it's actually harder to lose the gear than for the character to die. Like a lot harder. Like yeah you can theoretically do it, but to actually do it you'd have to accomplish more steps than actually just killing the character.

[Nifft]

Eh not really. With proper gear protection it's actually harder to lose the gear than for the character to die. Like a lot harder. Like yeah you can theoretically do it, but to actually do it you'd have to accomplish more steps than actually just killing the character.

You think walking into an AMF is less common than permanent character death? Dispel Magic is less common than beheading? Capture is less common than TPK?

Your game is weird.

[ryu]

You think walking into an AMF is less common than permanent character death? Dispel Magic is less common than beheading? Capture is less common than TPK?

Your game is weird.

Tinfoil hat trick, block targeting ability to equipment via wearing non-magical equipment over it, and an entire party with more escape options than you can shake a stick at. Yes it's much easier to kill my character than it is to separate him from his stuff. Kinda the point of all those precautions I take. It's also as impossible to permanently kill him as I can make it in any rules in play and still pretty hard to kill him at all.

[Zombulian]

Tinfoil hat trick, block targeting ability to equipment via wearing non-magical equipment over it, and an entire party with more escape options than you can shake a stick at. Yes it's much easier to kill my character than it is to separate him from his stuff. Kinda the point of all those precautions I take. It's also as impossible to permanently kill him as I can make it in any rules in play and still pretty hard to kill him at all.

Wow. It's almost like all of this counter evidence is anecdotal.
If only there were a commonly used saying to describe how that is a poor way to apply a general rule.

[Nifft]

Tinfoil hat trick, block targeting ability to equipment via wearing non-magical equipment over it, and an entire party with more escape options than you can shake a stick at.

Tinfoll hat requires the headband slot, so the Headband of Intellect apparently wasn't present in the first place.

But seriously, when I talk about my experience in a real game, it's not really valid to bring up TO as if it were standard in real games. TO tricks aren't present in the majority of real games, including mine.



Yes it's much easier to kill my character than it is to separate him from his stuff.

It's really not.

DM: "You wake up in chains. Your stuff is gone. This is a slaves-escape module."

Other Player: "Hey ryu, c'mon, this'll be fun."

[ryu]

Wow. It's almost like all of this counter evidence is anecdotal.
If only there were a commonly used saying to describe how that is a poor way to apply a general rule.

What do you actually want? He listed various ways he thought gear would be destroyed or taken. I listed the countermeasures that make them impossible or more effort than simply killing the character targeted. The only one I didn't flat out make natively impossible, capture, requires negating everything that can be done to the point where the character is at your mercy then not killing him. Also the longer you spend not killing him the more likely he stops being at your mercy.

Edit: Slots only apply to magical gear. The tinfoil hat is not magical and worn over the headband. Try again.

It's no longer theoretical if I'm actually doing it, and no I reject your invite because that game sounds horrible.

[Nifft]

Edit: Slots only apply to magical gear. The tinfoil hat is not magical and worn over the headband. Try again. If the tinfoil hat is non-magical, then literally nothing happens in an AMF and the effect you want was never viable. Try again.


It's no longer theoretical if I'm actually doing it, and no I reject your invite because that game sounds horrible. I think if you were actually doing it, you'd feel a lot more relaxed about my game's house rules, since you'd have your whole real game in which to use whatever rules you want.


But anyway, rejecting the invite means losing your gear.

All the gear is in the magical world, and the only way to get to the magical world was to sit down and play the game, and your pride prevented that.

You've been separated from all the magic, including the magical gear.

[ryu]

If the tinfoil hat is non-magical, then literally nothing happens in an AMF and the effect you want was never viable. Try again.

I think if you were actually doing it, you'd feel a lot more relaxed about my game's house rules, since you'd have your whole real game in which to use whatever rules you want.


But anyway, rejecting the invite means losing your gear.

All the gear is in the magical world, and the only way to get to the magical world was to sit down and play the game, and your pride prevented that.

You've been separated from all the magic, including the magical gear.

Characters can carry and wear any gear they want. Only one piece per slot can have effects on THEM. Similarly you can cast little magical auras or effects upon whatever gear you wish. So long as it's not granting effects to you it's fine.

Further I can join whatever games I please that aren't yours. It's not about pride. It's about having better things to do with my time than willingly spending it inside your game. Could be internet. Could be video game. Could be reading. Mostly reading. My time is a limited resource which I value.

[Nifft]

Characters can carry and wear any gear they want. Only one piece per slot can have effects on THEM. Similarly you can cast little magical auras or effects upon whatever gear you wish. So long as it's not granting effects to you it's fine.

Therefore your tinfoil hat has no effect?

That's what you're now claiming?

It's enspelled ("magic"), it's an item, and it very clearly does have an effect ("contingency: detects AMF, blocks AMF line of effect"). It's an ad-hoc magic item.



Further I can join whatever games I please that aren't yours.

I'm not the DM in the example who wanted to run the escaped-slave scenario. I've seen that way more from the PC side of the screen -- in fact I think I've never done that to a whole group at once. So yeah, try again?

Anyway, when you do start joining real games, you'll see that it's not particularly uncommon to lose gear.

Good luck out there.

[ryu]

Therefore your tinfoil hat has no effect?

That's what you're now claiming?

It's enspelled ("magic"), it's an item, and it very clearly does have an effect ("contingency: detects AMF, blocks AMF line of effect"). It's an ad-hoc magic item.




I'm not the DM in the example who wanted to run the escaped-slave scenario. I've seen that way more from the PC side of the screen -- in fact I think I've never done that to a whole group at once. So yeah, try again?

Anyway, when you do start joining real games, you'll see that it's not particularly uncommon to lose gear.

Good luck out there.

Nah. No gaming is better than bad gaming. That is in the sense that if you aren't having fun in the game presented you are better off not doing it. That's the wonderful thing about being an introvert. Since we don't crave social interaction to the same extent as most we can opt out of unpleasant social situations, and if it comes to that unpleasant people without remembering it the next day. Sort of like now. Goodbye.

[Nifft]

Since we don't crave social interaction to the same extent as most we can opt out of unpleasant social situations, and if it comes to that unpleasant people without remembering it the next day.

Not remembering unpleasant things from yesterday isn't actually what "introvert" means, that sounds a bit more like a dissociative disorder. I hope you're only joking about that. Whatever the case, I do hope you eventually find a real game. Good luck out there.



Anyway, back on topic:


I gave retroactive Int perks to non-gear, non-expiring changes to Intelligence.

- Headband? Nope, too easy to lose.
- Tome? Sure, that lasts forever.
- Racial Paragon? All yours.
- Level up? 100% yes. This worked well for a number of my games, and was unambiguous enough that the honest noobs didn't have problems, and foolproof enough that the (few) script-kiddy munchkin players couldn't break it.

I like retroactive skills because it seems more symmetrical with the retroactive HP you get from Con -- but on the other hand, I don't impose skill point penalties for Int damage, so maybe it's not actually symmetrical, oh well.


In pathfinder, they neatly (I think) solved this problem by making your skill rank cap your level (rather than level+3), and the only thing that a class skill gets is a +3 bonus when you have at least 1 rank. So, essentially, all class skills for any class ARE class skills forever, since you got that +3 to them from whatever class gave it to you.

Oh, and there's no double-cost for non-class skills. You just don't get the +3 for it being a class skill.

It's one of the better rules changes in PF, in my opinion.

Yeah that's one of the nicer things in PF.

It also solves the case where you want to be a multi-class character but you want high ranks in some skills from both of your classes.

[Zombulian]

What do you actually want? He listed various ways he thought gear would be destroyed or taken. I listed the countermeasures that make them impossible or more effort than simply killing the character targeted. The only one I didn't flat out make natively impossible, capture, requires negating everything that can be done to the point where the character is at your mercy then not killing him. Also the longer you spend not killing him the more likely he stops being at your mercy.


I was more addressing that it's stupid to count items that grant ability bonuses as essentially permanent because: "Well my Wizard that specifically accounts for those things can prevent them so there."
Just because you can effectively never have something removed doesn't mean that it becomes fused with your body.


In pathfinder, they neatly (I think) solved this problem by making your skill rank cap your level (rather than level+3), and the only thing that a class skill gets is a +3 bonus when you have at least 1 rank. So, essentially, all class skills for any class ARE class skills forever, since you got that +3 to them from whatever class gave it to you.

Oh, and there's no double-cost for non-class skills. You just don't get the +3 for it being a class skill.

It's one of the better rules changes in PF, in my opinion.

Wow that's pretty neat. I like that.


...we can opt out of unpleasant social situations, and if it comes to that unpleasant people without remembering it the next day. Sort of like now. Goodbye.

Haha... what.

[ryu]

I was more addressing that it's stupid to count items that grant ability bonuses as essentially permanent because: "Well my Wizard that specifically accounts for those things can prevent them so there."
Just because you can effectively never have something removed doesn't mean that it becomes fused with your body.



Wow that's pretty neat. I like that.



Haha... what.

So you demand it be within the body then? Magical surgery it is.

As to your question it means that in the event opt out you cease acknowledging the event occurred. In the event of a person opt out you cease acknowledging the person exists or ever existed. This site even has a helpful button for it. Luckily I can't remember anyone in this thread I've had to do that with. Cutting all interaction with a person out of your life sometimes unnerves other observers. Still the optimal move sometimes though.

[Segev]

Hopefully curtailing rather than extending the argument, but I think part of the issue is that at least one side is not understanding the "tinfoil hat trick."

The trick is that you commission an adamantine conical shell, one inch thick, with an open base, such that you can stand comfortably inside it while wearing all your gear. Optional: paint it with moons and stars. Then, you cast shrink item on it, possibly rendering it permanent, or possibly just renewing it periodically. Use the version that reduces it to a cloth consistency. It is now a magically enchanted conical hat that looks very stereotypical.

If you enter an AMF, the shrink item spell is suppressed, and the cone slams down around you, instantly surrounding you and breaking line of effect from the center of the AMF's emanation to you and anything you're wearing. You now are not in an AMF. You also know one is active outside your conical redoubt. It will take a fair bit of effort to get through your adamantine cone to hurt you, and most wizards at this stage will cast teleport or similar to get to a place of safety.

While there is magic on the hat, it is not a magical item in the sense of the rules governing magic items and the slots you must wear them in. It doesn't take a "slot." One can wear a Headband of Intellect underneath it, occupying the hat slot with that.

There's no specialized anti-antimagic field magic; the hat doesn't use magic to render you immune. The magic purely makes the cone portable and keeps it from being a hindrance to your adventuring until you need the instant LoE breaker.

[ryu]

What argument Segev? I remember no such thing and certainly have no one to respond to. Were other people arguing?

[Segev]

What argument Segev? I remember no such thing and certainly have no one to respond to. Were other people arguing?

I think you missed it while you were inside the adamantine cone, casting shrink item on it. Don't worry, I am pretty sure it's over.

Now, is it worth investing in Craft:Painting to get those stars and moons to be particularly stylish?

[ryu]

I think you missed it while you were inside the adamantine cone, casting shrink item on it. Don't worry, I am pretty sure it's over.

Now, is it worth investing in Craft:Painting to get those stars and moons to be particularly stylish?

Eh, it's cheap enough we can just pay an artist to do it. We don't have to spend skillpoints, someone else gets eat well tonight, and our hat is cool. Aint capitalism grand?

[Zombulian]

So you demand it be within the body then? Magical surgery it is.

As to your question it means that in the event opt out you cease acknowledging the event occurred. In the event of a person opt out you cease acknowledging the person exists or ever existed. This site even has a helpful button for it. Luckily I can't remember anyone in this thread I've had to do that with. Cutting all interaction with a person out of your life sometimes unnerves other observers. Still the optimal move sometimes though.

Grafts I'm probably more on board with.

Although the ceasing to acknowledge that events or people occurred or existed because you didn't like it/them isn't being an introvert. I believe you may have that mixed up with NPD or something.

[ryu]

Grafts I'm probably more on board with.

Although the ceasing to acknowledge that events or people occurred or existed because you didn't like it/them isn't being an introvert. I believe you may have that mixed up with NPD or something.

Well I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree. Since you weren't impolite about it I'll even continue speaking to you. Perhaps one day you'll recognize it for the excellent unpleasantness reduction strategy it is.

[Nifft]

Hopefully curtailing rather than extending the argument, but I think part of the issue is that at least one side is not understanding the "tinfoil hat trick."

The trick is that you commission an adamantine conical shell, one inch thick, with an open base, such that you can stand comfortably inside it while wearing all your gear. Optional: paint it with moons and stars. Then, you cast shrink item on it, possibly rendering it permanent, or possibly just renewing it periodically. Use the version that reduces it to a cloth consistency. It is now a magically enchanted conical hat that looks very stereotypical.

If you enter an AMF, the shrink item spell is suppressed, and the cone slams down around you, instantly surrounding you and breaking line of effect from the center of the AMF's emanation to you and anything you're wearing. You now are not in an AMF. You also know one is active outside your conical redoubt. It will take a fair bit of effort to get through your adamantine cone to hurt you, and most wizards at this stage will cast teleport or similar to get to a place of safety.

While there is magic on the hat, it is not a magical item in the sense of the rules governing magic items and the slots you must wear them in. It doesn't take a "slot." One can wear a Headband of Intellect underneath it, occupying the hat slot with that.

There's no specialized anti-antimagic field magic; the hat doesn't use magic to render you immune. The magic purely makes the cone portable and keeps it from being a hindrance to your adventuring until you need the instant LoE breaker. It's too bad that ryu guy didn't understand and forced you to post this.

Building on what you said, here's what happens when you stand in an AMF with your tinfoil hat.

1/ AMF washes over you, suppressing all magic effects on you, and all magic items that you're wearing. This MUST happen for the tinfoil hat to be suppressed, which you rely upon happening.

2/ The tinfoil hat reacts to being suppressed by expanding.

3/ In an ideal theoretical white-room environment, where the hat is perfectly aligned to the ground, and where the Wizard was standing perfectly straight, and where the hat was perfectly balanced on the Wizard's head, the hat grows into a cone that meets the ground without gap and without killing the Wizard on the way there. This is not what happens outside the white room, of course. There's a gap, possibly provided by the corpse of the unfortunate Wizard whose hat just cut him in half.


In that ideal scenario, your headband is suppressed for some amount of time. The tinfoil hat optimization doesen't care, because in that theoretical case the magic is back on by the time your turn rolls around, but for the purpose of demanding unbroken bonus continuity for skill points, the tinfoil hat is a flop. All it can do is reduce the discontinuity, not eliminate it.

So even if it worked as advertised, it doesn't work as needed.

But my other point is that it won't work as advertised unless you've got significant blackmail leverage on your DM.

Or if you don't actually play.


Now that this is fully explained, hopefully the argument can also disassociate itself from this topic.

[Segev]

...ah, you're trying to claim that the int bonus must never, ever be interrupted? Meh, you've got nothing on your side in the RAW for that argument. What you do have is the RAW supporting the same effect in 3.5, and Pathfinder providing a workaround in its version of the item(s).

In 3.5, Int bonuses to skill points are not retroactive, period. They apply when you rank up. In theory, this actually could lead to "I can't level! I'm not wearing my magic hat!" shenanigans, but in practice, it's up to the DM to adjudicate if you wear it regularly enough to qualify. Losing it later doesn't cut down your already-earned SP, but wearing it doesn't retroactively give you any.

In Pathfinder, Int bonus to skill points is retro-active, unless it comes from a temporary magic item. Instead, their temporary magic int-boosting items also have a skill associated with them, and, after you've worn the item for a certain amount of time (I think 1 day), it gives you your level in ranks of the skill. These don't stack with any other source of skill ranks, so are best on skills you're untrained in, but can be useful on a skill you've got less than the maximum allowed in.

As to the tinfoil hat's lethal expansion, there's no RAW on the state the item passes through while the shrink item spell is going on or coming off of it. So, for the rules' sake, all that happens is you go from having the hat on your head to having the unshrunken cone around you. As far as the rules are concerned, it may as well have no graphic effect and just "pop" from one state to the other as the spell is cast/suppressed. Now, the rules also don't say that's how it does work, but it is very much DM interpretation to add "well, now you got crushed" to it.

[Nifft]

...ah, you're trying to claim that the int bonus must never, ever be interrupted?

No, I'm saying that in my house rules which give retroactive skill points for some kinds of Int increases, the increases which qualified for retroactive skill points were the ones that were never interrupted.

We were off the RAW reservation before the Tinfoil Hate Machine even found the thread.

RAW the hat is irrelevant (and also doesn't work but it's irrelevant so that too is irrelevant) because there were no bonus skill points at stake if it did work.

This was always a houserules thread. That's always been the context of this discussion.

[Segev]

No, I'm saying that in my house rules which give retroactive skill points for some kinds of Int increases, the increases which qualified for retroactive skill points were the ones that were never interrupted.

We were off the RAW reservation before the Tinfoil Hate Machine even found the thread.

RAW the hat is irrelevant (and also doesn't work but it's irrelevant so that too is irrelevant) because there were no bonus skill points at stake if it did work.

This was always a houserules thread. That's always been the context of this discussion.

Ah, gotcha. I somehow missed the context of the importance of the headband's application. My apologies.

[daremetoidareyo]

Is it me, or did a real negative emotional vector spread like wildfire in this thread?

[ryu]

Is it me, or did a real negative emotional vector spread like wildfire in this thread?

It happens sometimes when arguments reach a certain point. I was content to send him to ignore with a response that could be construed as baiting in a fit of pique from having my motives doubted. He proceeded to accuse me of trolling in another thread because I had him on ignore and he needed a way to annoy me. Now I'm just trying to keep things contained.

[King of Nowhere]

The trick is that you commission an adamantine conical shell, one inch thick, with an open base, such that you can stand comfortably inside it while wearing all your gear. Optional: paint it with moons and stars. Then, you cast shrink item on it, possibly rendering it permanent, or possibly just renewing it periodically. Use the version that reduces it to a cloth consistency. It is now a magically enchanted conical hat that looks very stereotypical.

If you enter an AMF, the shrink item spell is suppressed, and the cone slams down around you, instantly surrounding you and breaking line of effect from the center of the AMF's emanation to you and anything you're wearing. You now are not in an AMF. You also know one is active outside your conical redoubt. It will take a fair bit of effort to get through your adamantine cone to hurt you, and most wizards at this stage will cast teleport or similar to get to a place of safety.

I see one bit of potential problem here:


Objects changed by a shrink item spell can be returned to normal composition and size merely by tossing them onto any solid surface It means that whenever you accidentally drop the hat, you risk ending the shrinking. And "being tossed on a solid surface" may also include being hit by a slam attack (I am using the physical concept of motion towards a hard surface here), or falling to the ground. Granted, this is something fully at the DM discretion, but it's something that could be a nuisance sometimes.
A greater problem is that it works if you stand on a flat surface. If you are flying, you fall to the ground, and the fall may crack your cone, losing its protection. If the terrain is irregular, then there will be holes between the hat and the ground. That's actually an interesting case here, are you affected by the AMF? Regardless of RAW, I'd say your feet are in it, so your boots stop working, and any spell you cast has, say, a 20% chance of failure for being partially in the AMF. Because it makes sense.
Not saying this to criticize the shrunk hat, it is certainly very useful and can save your life in a variety of situations; it's just not 100% foolproof.

[Nifft]

Ah, gotcha. I somehow missed the context of the importance of the headband's application. My apologies.

Delighted this is resolved.

Don't feel too bad, it was an unusually skillful derail pursued with unusual vigor. Many others have been tricked by less.

Anyway, just for closure:

As to the tinfoil hat's lethal expansion, there's no RAW on the state the item passes through while the shrink item spell is going on or coming off of it. So, for the rules' sake, all that happens is you go from having the hat on your head to having the unshrunken cone around you. As far as the rules are concerned, it may as well have no graphic effect and just "pop" from one state to the other as the spell is cast/suppressed. Now, the rules also don't say that's how it does work, but it is very much DM interpretation to add "well, now you got crushed" to it.
RAW, all I can see is that the expanded hat would be in the same square as the Wizard.

Nothing about one of them always being over, under, beside, astride, or inside the other.

Beyond that in the same square, we do have RAW for what happens when a heavy object falls on a PC. We don't have any RAW on what happens when a specifically hollow object falls on a PC.

Every possible benefit is pure DM fiat. Just as most of the possible harm would be DM fiat, except for the crushing damage. That's RAW.

In real games, you can't use DM fiat as a PC.

[ryu]

I see one bit of potential problem here:

It means that whenever you accidentally drop the hat, you risk ending the shrinking. And "being tossed on a solid surface" may also include being hit by a slam attack (I am using the physical concept of motion towards a hard surface here), or falling to the ground. Granted, this is something fully at the DM discretion, but it's something that could be a nuisance sometimes.
A greater problem is that it works if you stand on a flat surface. If you are flying, you fall to the ground, and the fall may crack your cone, losing its protection. If the terrain is irregular, then there will be holes between the hat and the ground. That's actually an interesting case here, are you affected by the AMF? Regardless of RAW, I'd say your feet are in it, so your boots stop working, and any spell you cast has, say, a 20% chance of failure for being partially in the AMF. Because it makes sense.
Not saying this to criticize the shrunk hat, it is certainly very useful and can save your life in a variety of situations; it's just not 100% foolproof.

In order for an emanation to effect you you need at least a full foot of clearance or it doesn't count. Unless the terrain is truly silly you aren't getting a foot of clearance.

[Bohandas]

Therefore your tinfoil hat has no effect?

That's what you're now claiming?

It's enspelled ("magic"), it's an item, and it very clearly does have an effect ("contingency: detects AMF, blocks AMF line of effect"). It's an ad-hoc magic item.


I think he may be thinking of a tinfoil hat trick that relies on the magic being dispelled/suppressed. IIRC there's one where the tinfoil hat is actually a tin shack that has been affected with shrink item, so if it's brought into an anti-magic field it expands and the emanation is now blocked by a wall.


I was more addressing that it's stupid to count items that grant ability bonuses as essentially permanent because: "Well my Wizard that specifically accounts for those things can prevent them so there."
Just because you can effectively never have something removed doesn't mean that it becomes fused with your body.

Just track which ranks were gained due to the bonus and remove those if the bonus is lost (and also mandate that the same ones be gained if the bonus is regained so that the skill system can't be abused by just taking the headband off and on. {edit: and maybe it also takes time to come into effect so it also can't be abused by just passing the headband around})


Characters can carry and wear any gear they want. Only one piece per slot can have effects on THEM. Similarly you can cast little magical auras or effects upon whatever gear you wish. So long as it's not granting effects to you it's fine.

As a tangent to this, a lot of items are mutually exclusive anyway. There's nothing, for example, stopping you from having a ring of invisiblity, a ring of the ram, AND some other third ring because the ring of invisibility and ring of the ram can't both be active at once anyway.

[lylsyly]

ya know, I would actually become more of a steady participant in the forum except for a song we use to sing while marching/running in the Army.

"Here we go again, same old **** again."

[Nifft]

I think he may be thinking of a tinfoil hat trick that relies on the magic being dispelled/suppressed. IIRC there's one where the tinfoil hat is actually a tin shack that has been affected with shrink item, so if it's brought into an anti-magic field it expands and the emanation is now blocked by a wall. Resolved a few posts up; everyone now agrees that the trick doesn't prevent the discontinuity.


Just track which ranks were gained due to the bonus and remove those if the bonus is lost (and also mandate that the same ones be gained if the bonus is regained so that the skill system can't be abused by just taking the headband off and on. {edit: and maybe it also takes time to come into effect so it also can't be abused by just passing the headband around})
With sufficiently advanced character tracking tools, including stuff to enforce whatever timeout you agree upon -- maybe 24 hours, or sleeping and waking up with the item -- this could be a solid solution.

But if we're using flat-text files or paper & pencil, I'm going to say that it's too much overhead for too little gain.



ya know, I would actually become more of a steady participant in the forum except for a song we use to sing while marching/running in the Army.

"Here we go again, same old **** again."

Here I go again, takin' a chance on threads (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKWcJnvqOMs)... wait, that's a different song.

[Quertus]

In order for an emanation to effect you you need at least a full foot of clearance or it doesn't count. Unless the terrain is truly silly you aren't getting a foot of clearance.

Really? So little arrow slits block magical emissions, while allowing archers to fire out? If you can back this up, muggles just got a nice buff boost.


In real games, you can't use DM fiat as a PC.

Maybe not. But the 2000 year old, NI level Wizard who trained you probably knows how reality (DM Fiat) works well enough to not lead you astray.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Really? So little arrow slits block magical emissions, while allowing archers to fire out? If you can back this up, muggles just got a nice buff boost.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#lineofEffect

4th paragraph under line of effect.

[ryu]

Really? So little arrow slits block magical emissions, while allowing archers to fire out? If you can back this up, muggles just got a nice buff boost.



Maybe not. But the 2000 year old, NI level Wizard who trained you probably knows how reality (DM Fiat) works well enough to not lead you astray.

Indeed. It does present other problems like reduction in field of aim though. Also rather simple to thoroughly block the hole with common conjuration spells. Or go ethereal/earthglide and play merry hell with them. This is also only useful if you have fortified position and are dealing with low level casters.

[King of Nowhere]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#lineofEffect

4th paragraph under line of effect.


An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell’s line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell’s line of effect.

This does not exactly say that. It says that a wall with a hole of at least a square foot does not block an emanation, it doesn't say that a smaller hole does.
Now, of course if we approximate the line of effect in squares, then this is clearly the intended interpretation. I think it would be more realistic and interesting, although more complicated to rule, that the emanation is basically like light; the wall cast a shadow, if there is a hole the light goes through the hole while still leaving a shadow on the rest of the wall. SO you may have a case where the arrow slit does not block the emanation if you are standing, but if you crouch underneath it, it does.
The reason I'd prefer this interpretation, even if it is more complicated to rule, is that there are many ways too abuse it otherwise. I remember someone saying that the way to nullify a prismatic wall encased in an antimagic field is to have this portable barrier with the arrow slit, it blocks the emanation, you move it one inch to the prismatic wall - technically denying the antimagic field in the whole square, including the inch that is left outside - and cast the required spells at it. which is clearly an abuse of approximations made with the grid. If you have a line of effect to cast a spell out, then you also have a line of effect for the emanation to affect you, I say, and RAW be damned.

I feel we are going in a tangent, or rather, considering the original thread, a tangent's tangent. And I am aggravating it :smalleek:

[Boci]

It's no longer theoretical if I'm actually doing it, and no I reject your invite because that game sounds horrible.

What if in a regular game with standard loot, the party is invited to a royal ball, and the invites specifies "no magical items or spells to be worn". A fairly understandable precaution in most D&D worlds. Is your character just going to sit that scene out, even if the rest of the party is keen on going and theres lot of important NPC to meet and talk to? Would you consider the DM bad for putting you in that situation?

[daremetoidareyo]

What if in a regular game with standard loot, the party is invited to a royal ball, and the invites specifies "no magical items or spells to be worn". A fairly understandable precaution in most D&D worlds. Is your character just going to sit that scene out, even if the rest of the party is keen on going and theres lot of important NPC to meet and talk to? Would you consider the DM bad for putting you in that situation?

They spend all of their time astrally projected and shaped changed into a dire turtle in their private demiplane, so no real loss.

[ryu]

What if in a regular game with standard loot, the party is invited to a royal ball, and the invites specifies "no magical items or spells to be worn". A fairly understandable precaution in most D&D worlds. Is your character just going to sit that scene out, even if the rest of the party is keen on going and theres lot of important NPC to meet and talk to? Would you consider the DM bad for putting you in that situation?

You expect me to divest of all my defenses and walk into a public place with my real body? Not interested. Literally asking to get ganked.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You expect me to divest of all my defenses and walk into a public place with my real body? Not interested. Literally asking to get ganked.

Yeah. It would take -monumental- respect for the monarch in question to even begin to consider such a risk. Even then, I'd probably try to sneak a few things under the radar via Nystul's Magic Aura.

[Boci]

You expect me to divest of all my defenses and walk into a public place with my real body? Not interested. Literally asking to get ganked.

Do you just not play at low levels? How is "never be vulnerable" an option for a 5th level character, unless your group is exclusivly TO? Also get over yourself, there are way more important targets at the ball than your character.

[ryu]

Do you just not play at low levels? How is "never be vulnerable" an option for a 5th level character, unless your group is exclusivly TO? Also get over yourself, there are way more important targets at the ball than your character.

At level one my characters are actively getting into as many fights as possible on their own terms to stop being level one. It takes at most three days of in-game time. Leveling also actually gets faster as the resources needed to fight become more freely available.

One of two things is true on a setting level. Either I, as a moderately leveled caster, am one of if not the most important target at the ball, or there are other moderately leveled casters I'd much rather be spending time with trading in spell knowledge. Some fat noble with a shiny bauble on his head certainly wasn't a consideration unless he's an adventuring king.

I also find it hilarious that Kelb and I actually agree on something for once.

[Boci]

At level one my characters are actively getting into as many fights as possible on their own terms to stop being level one. It takes at most three days of in-game time. Leveling also actually gets faster as the resources needed to fight become more freely available.

And you're interested in any kind of game where attending a royal ball would be worth the "risk"?


One of two things is true on a setting level. Either I, as a moderately leveled caster, am one of if not the most important target at the ball, or there are other moderately leveled casters I'd much rather be spending time with trading in spell knowledge. Some fat noble with a shiny bauble on his head certainly wasn't a consideration unless he's an adventuring king.

And a lot of those wizards will likely be at the ball, since NPC wizards would tend to have good social standing. Too bad your character isn't there, maybe one of your party members can arrange a spellswap for you.

[ryu]

Irrelevant if they're at the ball. People being social have less time to trade books. Eh go on a week or two of random encounters, then trade for spells or murder wizards for their books whichever is more convenient. That's based on whether the nearest wizard is opposed alignment, neutral alignment, or same alignment.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I also find it hilarious that Kelb and I actually agree on something for once.

Hey, when you're right you're right.

I wouldn't, in that monarch's place, expect basically anyone in my presence to be completely unarmed at any time except -maybe- in bed. Given the value of both martial and magical skill in society in the game world, I'd also expect that attempting to ban high-ranking folks, who certainly have their own enemies, from carrying the tools of their trade to be the kind of slight that foments discontent.

Rather, I'd expect them to keep things in good taste; warriors carrying their swords but either not being armoured at all or only lightly under their formal wear and spellcasters showing up without any moderate or higher transmutation or illusion auras being revealed as they pass the braziers of aura revealing at the door.

As a result, I'm disinclined to have my characters associate with royalty that's too paranoid or controlling (and both incompetent and cowardly in either case) to allow dangerous things in their presence.

[Boci]

Irrelevant if they're at the ball. People being social have less time to trade books. Eh go on a week or two of random encounters, then trade for spells or murder wizards for their books whichever is more convenient. That's based on whether the nearest wizard is opposed alignment, neutral alignment, or same alignment.

If that's what works for your group. I'd find that style fun for a game, but don't think I want a rerun after without at least one change of place in between, likely more. It also requires the DM coddle the players a little by having them use tactics that are just as available to NPCs, but they somehow never thought of it, which isn't the style of game I like too much.

I'd still say "with proper gear protection" is a little inadequet, and would substitute that with "under my groups play style" which I'm going to assume you know isn't usual.


I wouldn't, in that monarch's place, expect basically anyone in my presence to be completely unarmed at any time except -maybe- in bed. Given the value of both martial and magical skill in society in the game world, I'd also expect that attempting to ban high-ranking folks, who certainly have their own enemies, from carrying the tools of their trade to be the kind of slight that foments discontent.

Rather, I'd expect them to keep things in good taste; warriors carrying their swords but either not being armoured at all or only lightly under their formal wear and spellcasters showing up without any moderate or higher transmutation or illusion auras being revealed as they pass the braziers of aura revealing at the door.

As a result, I'm disinclined to have my characters associate with royalty that's too paranoid or controlling (and both incompetent and cowardly in either case) to allow dangerous things in their presence.

You're aproach this from a PC point of view, not a world building/NPC point of view. "No active spells and magical items" is largely there to make sure no one ends up selling half a forest for a third of its price because they someone approach them with an insanely high diplomacy modifier, boosted through magical items and spells.

I doubt guests to the Queen Diamond Jubilee were allowed to take AK47s with, but magical itsm, which have the potential to be way easier to hide, and much more devistating, should be fair game? Huh?

[ryu]

Hey, when you're right you're right.

I wouldn't, in that monarch's place, expect basically anyone in my presence to be completely unarmed at any time except -maybe- in bed. Given the value of both martial and magical skill in society in the game world, I'd also expect that attempting to ban high-ranking folks, who certainly have their own enemies, from carrying the tools of their trade to be the kind of slight that foments discontent.

Rather, I'd expect them to keep things in good taste; warriors carrying their swords but either not being armoured at all or only lightly under their formal wear and spellcasters showing up without any moderate or higher transmutation or illusion auras being revealed as they pass the braziers of aura revealing at the door.

As a result, I'm disinclined to have my characters associate with royalty that's too paranoid or controlling (and both incompetent and cowardly in either case) to allow dangerous things in their presence.

Yes but it's so unusual you have to admit. This is like, what, one time we've been in complete and unequivocal agreement on something in literally any of our encounters?

Also your situation, at least, is viewed as non-ideal but at least not suicidal. A proper wizard is always on guard for people trying to murder him and take his stuff, and also on the look out for stupid wizards to murder and take their stuff. It's how the mechanics are incentivized.

Edit: Also OF COURSE it's from a PC point of view. We're supposedly PCs in this scenario! What point of view do you expect us to take? That of wombats?

[Boci]

Edit: Also OF COURSE it's from a PC point of view. We're supposedly PCs in this scenario! What point of view do you expect us to take? That of wombats?

"You're aproach this from a PC point of view, not a world building/NPC point of view."

Most people can consider points of view other than their own. From a PC point of view, owner property is frequently not worth, but most PC should be able to understand why its popular with others.

[ryu]

"You're aproach this from a PC point of view, not a world building/NPC point of view."

Most people can consider points of view other than their own. From a PC point of view, owner property is frequently not worth, but most PC should be able to understand why its popular with others.

Yeah WITH OTHERS. I understand to point of being able to predict it that people will be at the ball. This doesn't mean I see value in it much less enough value to abide its rules. Falling in lockstep with other people for no perceived gain is precisely the kind of thing I'd attain magical power to avoid in any D&D world.

[Boci]

Yeah WITH OTHERS. I understand to point of being able to predict it that people will be at the ball. This doesn't mean I see value in it much less enough value to abide its rules. Falling in lockstep with other people for no perceived gain is precisely the kind of thing I'd attain magical power to avoid in any D&D world.

Networking is a thing in real life and fantasy realms. Plus, PC should at least consider relaxing from constantly killing monsters and research, but that's rolepalying with is optional.

PCs aren't meant to know they're PCs (unless metagaming is encouraged), so thinking like a PC IC whilst certainly not wrong, is generally going to be considered not particularly good roleplaying.

[ryu]

Networking is a thing in real life and fantasy realms. Plus, PC should at least consider relaxing from constantly killing monsters and research, but that's rolepalying with is optional.

In what sense? Your average level is accomplished within roughly three days on average. That means the most efficient method to attain power is to spend about two months or so killing things with a few days interspersed for any shopping, scribing, or crafting you need to do to prepare. Roleplaying involves putting one's self in a situation. MY first move put in a D&D world as a PC class would be to find a group of fellow murderhobos and get to work on becoming god already, because, and this may shock you, SUPREME ARCANE MIGHT IS A RATHER BIG MOTIVATING GOAL!

[Boci]

In what sense? Your average level is accomplished within roughly three days on average. That means the most efficient method to attain power is to spend about two months or so killing things with a few days interspersed for any shopping, scribing, or crafting you need to do to prepare. Roleplaying involves putting one's self in a situation. MY first move put in a D&D world as a PC class would be to find a group of fellow murderhobos and get to work on becoming god already, because, and this may shock you, SUPREME ARCANE MIGHT IS A RATHER BIG MOTIVATING GOAL!

So you're currently diverting all effort to becoming.....hmmmm, stock broker? Politician? Hedge fun manager? Eitherway, you should probably stop posting on this forum, since it won't help you get power. Unless, there are other things important to people than power.

Its fine roleplaying somone more motivated than you, that the point of roleplaying games. But when every character someone makes is 100% focused on power, yeah, that stops being good roleplaying.

Also, you're completly ignoring the death risk, because you can make a new character. Roleplaying would involve being a bit more aware and thus probasbly cautious, as a general rule.

[Kelb_Panthera]

You're aproach this from a PC point of view, not a world building/NPC point of view. "No active spells and magical items" is largely there to make sure no one ends up selling half a forest for a third of its price because they someone approach them with an insanely high diplomacy modifier, boosted through magical items and spells.

I'm approaching it from both, actually. Verisimilitude is fairly important to me and an insufficiently Machiavellian monarch that hasn't been/ isn't being deposed strikes me as pretty tough to believe. To borrow a page from Red Fel, It does present an opportunity though.


I doubt guests to the Queen Diamond Jubilee were allowed to take AK47s with, but magical itsm, which have the potential to be way easier to hide, and much more devistating, should be fair game? Huh?

AKs, no probably not. Bet money that VIPs' bodyguards were packing glocks though. Maybe even the odd MP5. Whether they were supposedly allowed to our not, at that. Guaranteed the royal guards were.

We also live in a -drastically- less dangerous world than even earth was just a couple centuries ago, much less a typical D&D world. Everyone needing to carry at least some kind of weapon virtually all the time is much more appropriate there than here and now.


Btw, am I the only one around here that remembers that SBG is a thing?

[ryu]

So you're currently diverting all effort to becoming.....hmmmm, stock broker? Politician? Hedge fun manager? Eitherway, you should probably stop posting on this forum, since it won't help you get power. Unless, there are other things important to people than power.

Its fine roleplaying somone more motivated than you, that the point of roleplaying games. But when every character someone makes is 100% focused on power, yeah, that stops being good roleplaying.

Also, you're completly ignoring the death risk, because you can make a new character. Roleplaying would involve being a bit more aware and thus probasbly cautious, as a general rule.

Tell me does this world have a clear demonstrably accurate path to becoming god in two months? Much higher ceiling combined with much more immediately visible path. Best part? Survive the early levels and the raise dead line means you can't easily be stopped and there's very little random chance. Also any of a dozen methods of eternal life.

I don't do that in real life, because real life doesn't reward ambition this hard and has much higher chance of permanent failure.

[Boci]

Tell me does this world have a clear demonstrably accurate path to becoming god in two months? Much higher ceiling combined with much more immediately visible path. Best part? Survive the early levels and the raise dead line means you can't easily be stopped and there's very little random chance. Also any of a dozen methods of eternal life.

I don't do that in real life, because real life doesn't reward ambition this hard and has much higher chance of permanent failure.

In real life if you fail to gain power, you rarely die. This is not a gurantee offered to an adventurer, and good roleplaying should reflect this most the time.


AKs, no probably not. Bet money that VIPs' bodyguards were packing glocks though. Maybe even the odd MP5. Whether they were supposedly allowed to our not, at that. Guaranteed the royal guards were.

Yes, and where in the invitation did it say the palace guards would be following the dress code? I'm pretty sure I didn't write that.

[ryu]

In real life if you fail to gain power, you rarely die. This is not a gurantee offered to an adventurer, and good roleplaying should reflect this most the time.

It's a guarantee offered to most adventurers with the means to afford ressing insurance. The situation there is different. Vastly different. You have to take that into account when deciding how you'd act.

Also verifiable afterlife where if you pick a deity you actually resonate with and follow the rules you'll have a good time.

[Boci]

It's a guarantee offered to most adventurers with the means to afford ressing insurance. The situation there is different. Vastly different. You have to take that into account when deciding how you'd act.

You have no gurantee of rezzing assurance. You have to get to that level first, and even once you are there, there are things that can prevents that. You are also ignoring the fact that you knoew the DM will follow the encounter table. A character doesn't know they won't encounter a hungry CR 8 creature at level 2.

[ryu]

You have no gurantee of rezzing assurance. You have to get to that level first, and even once you are there, there are things that can prevents that. You are also ignoring the fact that you knoew the DM will follow the encounter table. A character doesn't know they won't encounter a hungry CR 8 creature at level 2.

I don't know that in-game either. Knowledge skills to identify, and abrupt jaunt to make retreat safer.

Even still the chance of death happens regardless of how fast I go because becoming god requires fighting, and I'm not just going to not. Also the longer you dilly dally the higher the chance of being the distressed peasant in someone else's quest and having more chances to die. Downtime of any sort is to be spent improving your chances.

Your arguments aren't compelling, and you aren't going to change my path with this material.

[Boci]

Your arguments aren't compelling, and you aren't going to change my path with this material.

What a coincidence, I found your arguments super compelling!

[ryu]

What a coincidence, I found your arguments super compelling!

Ah so the argument is over then. Glad to see you've seen the light of how a sensible character acts.

[PhantasyPen]

To keep retroactive int points simple maybe only calculate at long term INT changes? An int item you never intend to remove? Sure. Level up stat allocated to int? Sure. Tome of int? Sure. Temp buff or debuff? No. All the benefits of the int rule with non of the stupid fiddly bits that have no effect for a few rounds only to make you do it again when stuff is normal.

I do not allow my players to count temporary intelligence bonuses towards their skill points.


I gave retroactive Int perks to non-gear, non-expiring changes to Intelligence.

- Headband? Nope, too easy to lose.
- Tome? Sure, that lasts forever.
- Racial Paragon? All yours.
- Level up? 100% yes.

Essentially this ^




Now, I have no idea what argument you all got into while I was busy yesterday, but I really do not appreciate the derailment of the thread, please take this argument elsewhere before I am forced to track down a mod. (Seriously, please take it elsewhere, I have no idea how to navigate this forum.)

[ryu]

I do not allow my players to count temporary intelligence bonuses towards their skill points.



Essentially this ^




Now, I have no idea what argument you all got into while I was busy yesterday, but I really do not appreciate the derailment of the thread, please take this argument elsewhere before I am forced to track down a mod. (Seriously, please take it elsewhere, I have no idea how to navigate this forum.)

No problem. It just ended. No more posts on it in this thread. Sorry for getting a bit heated. No sense deliberately angering someone not even involved.

[martixy]

It's not a houserule in Pathfinder.

[ryu]

It's not a houserule in Pathfinder.

If you want to get technical the mechanics are slightly different and this has a few added tweaks on top. At least I'm pretty sure increasing int doesn't do retroactive stuff there.

[Boci]

If you want to get technical the mechanics are slightly different and this has a few added tweaks on top. At least I'm pretty sure increasing int doesn't do retroactive stuff there.

"Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics as appropriate. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed."

[ryu]

Ah. I thought it was just the class skill stuff.

[Boci]

Incidentally, I believe that ruling also references one of the top 5 candidates for least used rules - Stat boosting items must be worn for 24 hours before they take effect.

[Segev]

I see one bit of potential problem here:

It means that whenever you accidentally drop the hat, you risk ending the shrinking. And "being tossed on a solid surface" may also include being hit by a slam attack (I am using the physical concept of motion towards a hard surface here), or falling to the ground. Granted, this is something fully at the DM discretion, but it's something that could be a nuisance sometimes.
A greater problem is that it works if you stand on a flat surface. If you are flying, you fall to the ground, and the fall may crack your cone, losing its protection. If the terrain is irregular, then there will be holes between the hat and the ground. That's actually an interesting case here, are you affected by the AMF? Regardless of RAW, I'd say your feet are in it, so your boots stop working, and any spell you cast has, say, a 20% chance of failure for being partially in the AMF. Because it makes sense.
Not saying this to criticize the shrunk hat, it is certainly very useful and can save your life in a variety of situations; it's just not 100% foolproof.It does say "tossed on a solid surface," not "dropped on a solid surface" nor "hit by a solid object." While you can make arguments that it means it's activated by sufficient impulse, that's not what it says, so arguing that the operative verb is "tossed" and that anything that isn't a "toss" doesn't qualify is at least equally valid. This would be up to the DM, essentially. A DM who doesn't want this trick to work is well within his rights to make a number of rulings to invalidate it.



RAW, all I can see is that the expanded hat would be in the same square as the Wizard.

Nothing about one of them always being over, under, beside, astride, or inside the other.

Beyond that in the same square, we do have RAW for what happens when a heavy object falls on a PC. We don't have any RAW on what happens when a specifically hollow object falls on a PC.

Every possible benefit is pure DM fiat. Just as most of the possible harm would be DM fiat, except for the crushing damage. That's RAW.

In real games, you can't use DM fiat as a PC.
If the DM doesn't want it to work, it won't, no. But, to be clear, even if it is "beside" the wizard, all he has to do is move behind it, which may not even require a five-foot-step since, by the RAW, it must share his square (and, somehow, it's doing so without encompassing him). As long as it's between him and the emanation source, the AMF is no longer affecting him.


Incidentally, I believe that ruling also references one of the top 5 candidates for least used rules - Stat boosting items must be worn for 24 hours before they take effect.An interesting one that also means that, if somebody snatches one from you, you're down 2-4 stat points for at least 24 hours, since the rules don't have a "stays attuned" rule. This also means you sleep, bathe or shower, etc. while wearing them or you never get their benefits. That headband is probably really stinky.

[ryu]

It does say "tossed on a solid surface," not "dropped on a solid surface" nor "hit by a solid object." While you can make arguments that it means it's activated by sufficient impulse, that's not what it says, so arguing that the operative verb is "tossed" and that anything that isn't a "toss" doesn't qualify is at least equally valid. This would be up to the DM, essentially. A DM who doesn't want this trick to work is well within his rights to make a number of rulings to invalidate it.

If the DM doesn't want it to work, it won't, no. But, to be clear, even if it is "beside" the wizard, all he has to do is move behind it, which may not even require a five-foot-step since, by the RAW, it must share his square (and, somehow, it's doing so without encompassing him). As long as it's between him and the emanation source, the AMF is no longer affecting him.

An interesting one that also means that, if somebody snatches one from you, you're down 2-4 stat points for at least 24 hours, since the rules don't have a "stays attuned" rule. This also means you sleep, bathe or shower, etc. while wearing them or you never get their benefits. That headband is probably really stinky.

I know no rules for bathing, therefore it's an optional roleplaying conceit.

[martixy]

If you want to get technical the mechanics are slightly different and this has a few added tweaks on top. At least I'm pretty sure increasing int doesn't do retroactive stuff there.

That's the beauty of it. All of it.

Everything OP said is official RAW in PF. Additionally, the way the handled it, with the flat +3 for class skills, skill increases are strictly commutative. Class A + Class B == Class B + Class A. Which is untrue in 3.5 where it matters which class you get at L1, because it gets 4x the skill points.
And then there's the obvious merging of skills.

PFs skill system is the single greatest improvement over 3.5e.

[ryu]

I mean... I wouldn't know because I generally only bothered with skills relevant to what I was doing? It's not so much a complex system as simple tool most easily used by int builds.

[Rijan_Sai]

I do not allow my players to count temporary intelligence bonuses towards their skill points.


I gave retroactive Int perks to non-gear, non-expiring changes to Intelligence.

- Headband? Nope, too easy to lose.
- Tome? Sure, that lasts forever.
- Racial Paragon? All yours.
- Level up? 100% yes.

Essentially this ^
Question about this (for PhantasyPen or Nifft): Do you give the retroactive skill points at a rate of HD+3, or just HD? I'm considering adopting this for my own game, and I wasn't sure if you were accounting for the x4 at level one or not.

Thanks!

[Nifft]

Question about this (for PhantasyPen or Nifft): Do you give the retroactive skill points at a rate of HD+3, or just HD? I'm considering adopting this for my own game, and I wasn't sure if you were accounting for the x4 at level one or not.

Thanks!

Basically, when you level up, you can "rebuild" your PC as if you'd had a higher total intelligence score from level 1. (Scare-quotes because this was not the PHB2 rebuild rules, that wasn't out yet.)

It worked out to (HD+3) because level 1 was included in the calculations.

[Rijan_Sai]

Basically, when you level up, you can "rebuild" your PC as if you'd had a higher total intelligence score from level 1. (Scare-quotes because this was not the PHB2 rebuild rules, that wasn't out yet.)

It worked out to (HD+3) because level 1 was included in the calculations.

Nice! (And the answer I was hoping for :smallbiggrin:)
Thanks again!