Armor of Agathys?

[Mjolnirbear]

So I have a question. I look at AoA and it seems... Lacklustre. 5 THP is one, maybe two hits, tops.

Is it valued so highly because it scales? It seems that by the time it scales monsters are still breaking through it in one or two hits max.

I can see the value with a significant source of THP like Fiendlock or False Life or something, but outside that I'd almost rather have the Shield spell.

Thoughts?

[Matrix_Walker]

It's the scalability. Upcasting AoA is a beautiful thing.

[sky red hunter]

if you can team it with blade ward you can get double the benefit and by purposely running into range with enemies and away again to trigger attacks of opportunity and do loads of damage at mid to higher levels.

[Blood of Gaea]

If you cast it at 5th level it will usually deal around 25-75 damage, a fifth level Eldritch Smite deals 6d8 or 36 average. So it's good damage and a tad more tankiness.

[jiriku]

I have found it to be situationally useful at mid levels, and it almost begs to be combined with effects like resistance that halve your incoming damage. Against large groups of melee-oriented mooks, it can swing a fight by itself. But intelligent enemies who recognize the spell effect will rake you with ranged damage to strip it away before moving in.

By high levels though (13+) it just wasn't worth the spell slot. I had much better options, even considering that it was effectively cast from a 5th level slot.

[Arial Black]

My current PC is a Bar/War built around combining the resistance from Rage with AofA. It's great!

BTW, you cannot 'top up' the THP from AofA with THP from any other source. Whenever you gain THP when you already have some then you must choose to keep the THP you have or lose them and take the new ones. If you do the latter then AofA ends as soon as those THP go away.

[Malifice]

I can see the value with a significant source of THP like Fiendlock or False Life or something, but outside that I'd almost rather have the Shield spell.

?

THP dont sack.

If you have temporary hit points and you somehow game more, one set replaces the other (your choice).

My blade warlock has found great use with this spell and Heavy Armor Master feat and from 3rd the cleric casting warding bond on me.

Vuman fighter 1 warlock 5. Gain 15 temporary points. Last an hour takes no concentration.

Get clobbered for say 10 and reduce the damage by 3. Then it is halved to 3 for warding bond. They take 15. They attack again and again I take 3 damaged and they take another 15.

Instead of taking 20 points of damage I have dealt 30 and still have nine temporary hit points left.

It is a really effective mook screen and you should also remember most creatures rely on multi-attack for their damage at mid to high levels. They will clobber themselves silly on their turn.

[Sicarius Victis]

While AoA doesn't stack with THP, it does stack with Abjurer's Arcane Ward. Even better, damage goes to the Ward before the THP, while the enemy stlll takes the damage from AoA.

[JakOfAllTirades]

You really want to make the most of AoA, play a Bard and grab the AoA spell via Magical Secrets. Then you can scale it all the way up to 9th level.

[Blood of Gaea]

You really want to make the most of AoA, play a Bard and grab the AoA spell via Magical Secrets. Then you can scale it all the way up to 9th level.
I mean, if you want to waste a perfectly good 9th level spell slot, sure.

[Xihirli]

Add in cutting words and profit.

[Malifice]

I mean, if you want to waste a perfectly good 9th level spell slot, sure.

Getting 45 temp HP and dealing 45 damage each time you get hit isn't a waste.

Combine with Stoneskin or a Cleric casting Warding Bond and profit.

Consider a creature with multi-attack (3) each attack dealing 16 (2d10+5) damage. He hits, you lose 8 temp HP and he takes 45 damage. It takes 6 hits before you take any damage, and in that time he has taken 270 damage.

With HAM its even better (you take (16-3)/2 round down per hit) meaning it lasts for 9 attacks, doing over 300 damage to any creature stupid enough to attack you.

DMs will simply have his monsters ignore you. Maybe they'll swing once and regret it before heading somewhere else. Mooks touch you and explode.

God help creatures that get DPR from multi-attack and not from 'one big hit'.

[Malifice]

While AoA doesn't stack with THP, it does stack with Abjurer's Arcane Ward. Even better, damage goes to the Ward before the THP, while the enemy stlll takes the damage from AoA.

No it doesn't.

The ward takes the damage, you don't. If you don't take damage, neither does your opponent.

The ward sits 'over' the AoO.

[Blood of Gaea]

Getting 45 temp HP and dealing 45 damage each time you get hit isn't a waste.

Combine with Stoneskin or a Cleric casting Warding Bond and profit.

Consider a creature with multi-attack (3) each attack dealing 16 (2d10+5) damage. He hits, you lose 8 temp HP and he takes 45 damage. It takes 6 hits before you take any damage, and in that time he has taken 270 damage.

With HAM its even better (you take (16-3)/2 round down per hit) meaning it lasts for 9 attacks, doing over 300 damage to any creature stupid enough to attack you.

DMs will simply have his monsters ignore you. Maybe they'll swing once and regret it before heading somewhere else. Mooks touch you and explode.

God help creatures that get DPR from multi-attack and not from 'one big hit'.
Sure, but you have to compare it to the like of giving every attack against you disadvantage (Foresight), or having the THP of a Dragon (True Polymorph), or a Simulacrum to spread the damage out (Wish).

I'm not saying you don't get anything from it, just that it can be hard to justify compared to other options.

I do agree that in a situation where you get swarmed by low CR monsters it would be quite potent, but I'd still probably go for a 6-8th level slot.

[Malifice]

Sure, but you have to compare it to the like of giving every attack against you disadvantage (Foresight), or having the THP of a Dragon (True Polymorph), or a Simulacrum to spread the damage out (Wish).

It makes you invulnerable to mooks in melee (they vaporise themselves, meaning the DM wont ever attack you) and it also stops many (most) monsters from even considering attacking you.

DMs (and indeed most creatures) don't want to cop 45 points of damage each time they swing at you. Bearing in mind most creatures have multi-attack and damage per hit in the 5-25 range per hit, they are going to cop around 100 damage to themselves, and not even hurt you.

Personally I am trying to find a way to improve the cold damage per hit. Its not a damage 'roll' so many abilities (dragon sorcerer etc) don't make it better.

[JNAProductions]

Unless that creature is immune to Cold damage... *mumble grumble Curse of Strahd mumble grumble wraith spectre ghost thing that knocked my AoA out without taking any damage grumble*

[EdenIndustries]

No it doesn't.

The ward takes the damage, you don't. If you don't take damage, neither does your opponent.

The ward sits 'over' the AoO.

"If a creature hits you with a melee attack while you have these hit points, the creature takes 5 cold damage." The spell doesn't require any damage, whether to your THP or HP, only that you're hit with a melee attack. That should apply even if the ward takes the damage, no? You're still hit by a melee attack while you have those THP.

[Malifice]

"If a creature hits you with a melee attack while you have these hit points, the creature takes 5 cold damage." The spell doesn't require any damage, whether to your THP or HP, only that you're hit with a melee attack. That should apply even if the ward takes the damage, no? You're still hit by a melee attack while you have those THP.

Looks like it does work, you're right.

I'm sure I read somewhere it doesn't.

[Blood of Gaea]

Personally I am trying to find a way to improve the cold damage per hit. Its not a damage 'roll' so many abilities (dragon sorcerer etc) don't make it better.
Concentrating on Shadow of Moil would do the trick, you could combine it with a use of Hellish Rebuke if you really wanted to be silly.

[JakOfAllTirades]

It makes you invulnerable to mooks in melee (they vaporise themselves, meaning the DM wont ever attack you) and it also stops many (most) monsters from even considering attacking you.

DMs (and indeed most creatures) don't want to cop 45 points of damage each time they swing at you. Bearing in mind most creatures have multi-attack and damage per hit in the 5-25 range per hit, they are going to cop around 100 damage to themselves, and not even hurt you.

Personally I am trying to find a way to improve the cold damage per hit. Its not a damage 'roll' so many abilities (dragon sorcerer etc) don't make it better.

Elemental Bane, (4th level, Elemental Evil). It requires concentration and the target gets a saving throw. But aside from that, it adds 2d6 the first time the target takes elemental damage on its turn, and negates resistance of the chosen type until the spell ends. (1 minute or when the caster's concentration ends)

Not a very good spell, but I haven't found a better way to augment AoA damage as of yet.

[Blood of Gaea]

Elemental Bane, (4th level, Elemental Evil). It requires concentration and the target gets a saving throw. But aside from that, it adds 2d6 the first time the target takes elemental damage on its turn, and negates resistance of the chosen type until the spell ends. (1 minute or when the caster's concentration ends)

Not a very good spell, but I haven't found a better way to augment AoA damage as of yet.
Part of the Shadow of Moil spells deals 2d8 necrotic damage when a creature within 10 feet of your hits you with an attack. It's a Warlock only spell, though a Bard could snag it.

[Waazraath]

So I have a question. I look at AoA and it seems... Lacklustre. 5 THP is one, maybe two hits, tops.

Is it valued so highly because it scales? It seems that by the time it scales monsters are still breaking through it in one or two hits max.

I can see the value with a significant source of THP like Fiendlock or False Life or something, but outside that I'd almost rather have the Shield spell.

Thoughts?

In addition to all the good points made already:
- 1 hour duration. That's great, you can buff before combat / entering the dungeon, so it won't cost you an action in combat. From an action economy perspecitve: great.
- no concentration. That's very powerful. In 5e, almost all buffs require concentration, with a few notable exceptions (aid, fire shield, mirror image, death ward, a few more). Of these non-concentration requiring buffs, AoA is imo one of the most powerful, if not the most.

[Asmotherion]

AoA is golden on any caster. It's extra (temporary) HP, aka an extra, stable source of HP, and unless you have a better source of temporary HP, it's always great to have avalable.

Second, it's retributive factor on a hit is most of the time going to be worth as much or more HP damage than the average melee hit at your CR. This means, the more you're getting hit in melee, the better. And as a mage, you're probably getting ways to avoid Ranged Damage (Shield for example).

Third, it's an excelent use of your 2nd highest level slot (if not a Warlock) or a short rest refreshable slot (if Warlock).

A multiclass Bearbarian/Warlock can also make good use of it.

Overall, it's less of a spell to think of as a "panic button" and more as an actual "battle gish spell" as in, you have to actually dedicate a certain amoud of strategy/change your fighting style a bit to make the most out of it, but it's a great spell never the less for everyone, since "more HP can never really hurt you".

[Arial Black]

I do agree that in a situation where you get swarmed by low CR monsters it would be quite potent.

When used correctly it's great against mooks who attack in melee a lot, and it's also great in a duel against a single opponent, especially if they have high AC.

In a duel it's a war of attrition. From a meta perspective you can work out the odds of you hitting their AC, know how many attack per round you get, can work out your average damage per round, and then can work out how many rounds it will take you to knock their HPs to zero. Do the same calculation for their attacks against you, and then compare the final figure. The guy that drops first loses. You can even work out how many HPs the survivor will have remaining.

But AofA wrecks them! Every time they hit (until you THP run out) they unavoidably take 5/10/15/20/25 damage, and the spell still gives you more HPs in the form of THP, and you are only taking half damage anyway because of Rage/Warding Bond/whatever.

AofA is a HUGE advantage in a duel, when used correctly.

It has a couple of disadvantages too. In order to do the damage you want to get hit! This prompts you to do strange things like run past a load of mooks to deliberately trigger OAs. A couple of crits later and your spell is gone and you're surrounded by mooks who are chilled but not in a good way!

The other is that ranged attacks whittle away those THPs without AofA damaging them. Although the spell did some good in that it gave you THP, it feels wasted if you don't do the cold damage.

The point is, if you build your PC around AofA then it is great! :smallsmile:

[Willie the Duck]

So I have a question. I look at AoA and it seems... Lacklustre.

Lacking luster is perhaps the best way to think of it. It is a very workmanlike ability, almost opposite of flashy.

That said, for the target audience (being almost exclusively warlocks) it is often a good choice.

First and foremost, it scales-- Despite their automatically upcasted spell slot mechanic, the warlock doesn't have a huge number of scaling spells. That by itself makes it useful
It's dual purpose-- It is defensive and offensive. For any class that has a limited number of spells to pick from, that's useful.
Regardless of how many hits the 5hp/level are, they are hp/level -- warlocks (even non-hexbladelocks) have an amazing ability to get into melee combat. If for no other reason than the same reason that enemies love to get up close and personal with archers (and like archers, players often play warlocks as slightly less paranoid of melee than they would a wizard or sorcerer). Extra hp are nice for that role
It's nonrandom -- both the THP and damage dealt are known entities. If your fiendlock just launched a fireball that left a squad of orcs still standing, sometimes the appropriate next spell is a 'survive the reprisal' type one that you are least know what you are going to get.



Mind you, it is still not anyone's #1 choice, but it certainly belongs in a lot of arsenals.

[Vogie]

It's actually better on at higher levels... as most of the Patron's Level 10 Ribbons give some sort of resistance, or Armor of hexes, which gives your targets a chance to miss you entirely.

It's terrible on Celestial locks though, which is fitting, I think.

[Malifice]

It saves you more than the temporary points as well.

A fairly large chunk of monsters simply won't bother to attack you because they don't want to die.