Quick tomelock cantrip question

[Pyramid Pug]

Sup folks, Pug here with a quick question.

Besides my dwarf cleric from the other thread (which btw just got word from my DM that he aproves of the wizard dip and even gave the same reasons I did), I also have a lvl 2 Halfling Warlock. I was wavering between going sorcerer or remaining warlock, but I think I’ll remain warlock just to avoid the headache of managing what charges on short rests, what doesn’t, metamagics and whatnot. EB gives me a nice dpr and I like the idea of a utility/battlefield controler caster.

My patron is a sea themed GOO (tho I’m looking at the other patrons to see if there’s anything that catches my eye), and my party has a bard (always a bard...), a monk and a paladin.

So, come lvl 3 I’m thinking of going tomelock for the utility and versatility of it (we already have plenty of melee, and wasn’t sold on the chain pact).

My question is, what cantrips and rituals should I get? (once I get the ritual invocation that is)

I currently have EB and Minor Illusion, and was thinking of getting Guidance and Shocking Grasp (that one would have come in handy last session, grunff), what else would come in handy?

Btw, I’ve read Evilanagram’s excelent warlock and sorcerer’s guides, tho his cantrip sugestion obviously pertains only to the warlock list. I also think Evil missed the most epic, golden oportunity of putting a picture of Shrek’s smiling Donkey on the sorcerer bloodline section (“Dragon had a baby with what?!”) :smallbiggrin:

[Quoz]

Since you will probably never use any attack cantrip other than Eldritch Blast (Maybe a backup saving throw cantrip to avoid disadvantage) go for utility.

Mold earth/shape water are some of the best role playing problem solvers you can have. Uses are pretty much endless, limited only by your creativity.

Guidance is also amazing out of combat utility. So long as you have time, an extra d4 to every skill check you make.

Shillelagh is the go-to melee cantrip for non hexblades, along with greenflame blade or booming blade

For rituals, grab them all. Find Familiar gives you half the benefit of a chainlock. Identify, detect magic, and alarm are all quite useful. At higher levels leomund's tiny hut guarantees never getting ambushed during a long rest.

[Solunaris]

You don't have Prestidigitation? Sure, it's not great for combat or solving puzzles (unless you DM is rather liberal with the application of heating or cooling stuff like allowing you to melt a path under a glacier) but the spell has endless RP capabilities. "Curse" a less than helpful noble with all food tasting of ash or create an official seal to flash a guard for a moment. Clean yourself and your clothes in an instant or soil an annoying peasant who won't leave you alone.

Also, I'll second the "no more attack" cantrips sentiment. You've got the best one in the game and if you find yourself in melee you probably shouldn't be casting anyway. Shocking Grasp is perhaps the only exception to this idea, but you'd probably be better served by just disengaging instead of casting something that might fail to take effect.

[DarkKnightJin]

Because of story reasons, my Human Fighter has a dip of Warlock, which I intend to expand to a 3 level dip eventually. But, since his Cha is 8, I can't make use of Eldritch Blast. My idea when picking up Tome was to grab Guidance, Thaumaturgy(possibly something else), and Control Flames, since he's a weaponsmith.

Seeing the Shape Water thing, and already having Prestidigitation, I thought of swapping Control Flames for Shape Water, and use that to try and expedite the process of drying flowers and herbs for use in potions and brews.

A bit more on-topic: pick some cantrips that make sense for the character to have. Eldritch Blast is great, and Force is rarely resisted or flat out immunity. You could consider something with a saving throw to account for melee range stuff, or when your Rolls are just not enough to hit their AC.

[Pyramid Pug]

Since you will probably never use any attack cantrip other than Eldritch Blast (Maybe a backup saving throw cantrip to avoid disadvantage) go for utility.

Mold earth/shape water are some of the best role playing problem solvers you can have. Uses are pretty much endless, limited only by your creativity.

Guidance is also amazing out of combat utility. So long as you have time, an extra d4 to every skill check you make.

Shillelagh is the go-to melee cantrip for non hexblades, along with greenflame blade or booming blade

For rituals, grab them all. Find Familiar gives you half the benefit of a chainlock. Identify, detect magic, and alarm are all quite useful. At higher levels leomund's tiny hut guarantees never getting ambushed during a long rest.

My intention with Shocking Grasp is the "get out of jail" rider more so than damage, comes in handy to reposition myself without taking a AoO (happened last section in fact, wish I had it then). My DPR will undoubtedly come from EB + Hex (guess I forgot to mention my spells, my bad). Guidance is next to godliness (play a cleric on another game, saved my bacon more than I can count).

Shape Water would be thematically appropriate given the nature of my patron and backstory, but shillelagh comes in handy in case of melee.. but then I have shocking grasp as I don't really want to be in melee..

As for the rituals.. okay yeah, I agree, grab all you can like a greedy pirate on cheesy movie, but I do need to pick a couple initially lol. I could leave it up to DM fiat (the book is an aid from my patron, surprise me), in fact it would probably be interesting.



You don't have Prestidigitation? Sure, it's not great for combat or solving puzzles (unless you DM is rather liberal with the application of heating or cooling stuff like allowing you to melt a path under a glacier) but the spell has endless RP capabilities. "Curse" a less than helpful noble with all food tasting of ash or create an official seal to flash a guard for a moment. Clean yourself and your clothes in an instant or soil an annoying peasant who won't leave you alone.

Also, I'll second the "no more attack" cantrips sentiment. You've got the best one in the game and if you find yourself in melee you probably shouldn't be casting anyway. Shocking Grasp is perhaps the only exception to this idea, but you'd probably be better served by just disengaging instead of casting something that might fail to take effect.

... I'm a potato.. I COMPLETELY FORGOT I COULD DISENGAGE LAST SESSION, DANGIT!! (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

.. it's okay.. if I had disengaged I wouldn't have been able to cast EB.. ┬─┬ ノ( ゜-゜ノ)

... BUT I MISSED ANYWAY!! (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

On my character's backstory, he's a merchant from an extended halfling family that has served the patron for centuries in secret, the initial founders having been rescued from a sinking ship by the patron and changed into a single family united in their grudge against Umberlee (the patron was free to roam the oceans behind reality before Umberlee arrived). The halflings from the family have all lifestyles related to the sea somewhat, sailors, fishers, shipwrights, merchants, but also indirectly, like running orphanages for the kids of those lost at sea. Anything that allows them to covertly fight the influence and cruelty of the ocean queen

Prestidigitation would actually come in handy with that background as well as shape water, tho isn't that stepping a bit into the realm of minor illusion?


Because of story reasons, my Human Fighter has a dip of Warlock, which I intend to expand to a 3 level dip eventually. But, since his Cha is 8, I can't make use of Eldritch Blast. My idea when picking up Tome was to grab Guidance, Thaumaturgy(possibly something else), and Control Flames, since he's a weaponsmith.

Seeing the Shape Water thing, and already having Prestidigitation, I thought of swapping Control Flames for Shape Water, and use that to try and expedite the process of drying flowers and herbs for use in potions and brews.

A bit more on-topic: pick some cantrips that make sense for the character to have. Eldritch Blast is great, and Force is rarely resisted or flat out immunity. You could consider something with a saving throw to account for melee range stuff, or when your Rolls are just not enough to hit their AC.

I... have a bad history with saving throws lol.. tho yeh, toll the dead wouldn't be too bad (tho lots of critters eat necrotic with tea and biscuits). I'm also keen on Shape Water for similar reasons (my character and his patron are sea themed, would also like to get the underwater breathing invocation at some point).

I'm curious tho.. if you have char 8 how did you dip warlock? The minimum on the book is 13, was it DM allowance or did you start as warlock then leveled fighter?

[DarkKnightJin]

My intention with Shocking Grasp is the "get out of jail" rider more so than damage, comes in handy to reposition myself without taking a AoO (happened last section in fact, wish I had it then). My DPR will undoubtedly come from EB + Hex (guess I forgot to mention my spells, my bad). Guidance is next to godliness (play a cleric on another game, saved my bacon more than I can count).

Shape Water would be thematically appropriate given the nature of my patron and backstory, but shillelagh comes in handy in case of melee.. but then I have shocking grasp as I don't really want to be in melee..

As for the rituals.. okay yeah, I agree, grab all you can like a greedy pirate on cheesy movie, but I do need to pick a couple initially lol. I could leave it up to DM fiat (the book is an aid from my patron, surprise me), in fact it would probably be interesting.




... I'm a potato.. I COMPLETELY FORGOT I COULD DISENGAGE LAST SESSION, DANGIT!! (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

.. it's okay.. if I had disengaged I wouldn't have been able to cast EB.. ┬─┬ ノ( ゜-゜ノ)

... BUT I MISSED ANYWAY!! (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻

On my character's backstory, he's a merchant from an extended halfling family that has served the patron for centuries in secret, the initial founders having been rescued from a sinking ship by the patron and changed into a single family united in their grudge against Umberlee (the patron was free to roam the oceans behind reality before Umberlee arrived). The halflings from the family have all lifestyles related to the sea somewhat, sailors, fishers, shipwrights, merchants, but also indirectly, like running orphanages for the kids of those lost at sea. Anything that allows them to covertly fight the influence and cruelty of the ocean queen

Prestidigitation would actually come in handy with that background as well as shape water, tho isn't that stepping a bit into the realm of minor illusion?



I... have a bad history with saving throws lol.. tho yeh, toll the dead wouldn't be too bad (tho lots of critters eat necrotic with tea and biscuits). I'm also keen on Shape Water for similar reasons (my character and his patron are sea themed, would also like to get the underwater breathing invocation at some point).

I'm curious tho.. if you have char 8 how did you dip warlock? The minimum on the book is 13, was it DM allowance or did you start as warlock then leveled fighter?

He dun dieded, and DM had a little thing prepped for him to keep the same character, but with a caveat as a 'penalty' for being DEAD dead.
So, the next level was in Warlock, realigning the DM's idea for my character. Especially after he realized that with that sucky of a Cha score, I wouldn't be able to abuse many of the things he himself tried during his stint as the party Warlock.

I did get Great Old One as a patron, along with some thematic spells. Like Identify.

But yeah, I've been looking into utility cantrips and spells, because it's gonna be a horrible mess if I try to attack with the Cha of a loaf of bread.

[Pyramid Pug]

He dun dieded, and DM had a little thing prepped for him to keep the same character, but with a caveat as a 'penalty' for being DEAD dead.
So, the next level was in Warlock, realigning the DM's idea for my character. Especially after he realized that with that sucky of a Cha score, I wouldn't be able to abuse many of the things he himself tried during his stint as the party Warlock.

I did get Great Old One as a patron, along with some thematic spells. Like Identify.

But yeah, I've been looking into utility cantrips and spells, because it's gonna be a horrible mess if I try to attack with the Cha of a loaf of bread.

Sounds like a "RISE FROM YOUR GRAVE" kind of situation lol. Yeh an approach similar to the "Dumb" EK sounds like the right way, picking up stuff that doesn't rely on spellcasting stats.

[Ventruenox]

It is currently incomplete, but Mike Mearls' Happy Fun Hour was designing a Kraken Warlock Pact. That may be more thematic than GOO. You can find the write up here. (https://thinkdm.wordpress.com/pact-of-the-kraken-warlock/)

There is no expanded spell list at the moment, but in another thread MrStabby suggested:
Level 5: Destructive Wave, Maelstrom
Level 4: Evard's Black Tentacles, Storm Sphere
Level 3: Call Lightning, Tidal Wave
Level 2: Gust of Wind, Earthbind
Level 1: Thunderwave, Create or Destroy water

[Pyramid Pug]

It is currently incomplete, but Mike Mearls' Happy Fun Hour was designing a Kraken Warlock Pact. That may be more thematic than GOO. You can find the write up here. (https://thinkdm.wordpress.com/pact-of-the-kraken-warlock/)

There is no expanded spell list at the moment, but in another thread MrStabby suggested:
Level 5: Destructive Wave, Maelstrom
Level 4: Evard's Black Tentacles, Storm Sphere
Level 3: Call Lightning, Tidal Wave
Level 2: Gust of Wind, Earthbind
Level 1: Thunderwave, Create or Destroy water

It... is... beautiful...

I actually have no reason to have a GOO as a patron, I simply picked it because none of the others appealed to me (well and I like Lovecraft), I could have flavoured my patron as any of the other archetypes as mechanically none of them particularly supports a sea themed. This is actually similar to what I had in mind, like picking up the water breathing invocation as well as as Evard's black tentacles and Arms of Hadar and flavoring it as a hole cracking in reality and tentacles encrusted with barnacles with eyes in it coming out and grappling the enemies.

This is great really, I'm bookmarking this and showing it to my DM ASAP.

-- Edit --

One thing is that there really aren't that many water based spells (and very few damage wise). Those themes seem to spin around more around cold and lightning damage, tho I suppose poison/acid could fit as well. Unfortunately there's no "Water" type damage.

[ATHATH]

I don't think that you'll need to pick up the Water Breathing invocation- you can already pick up the Water Breathing spell as a ritual with your Tome of Secrets, and it lasts an absurdly long time.

I wrote my own expanded spell list for the Kraken patron here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?555733-Mearls-Happy-Fun-Time-Warlord-(and-others)-written-up). I'll repost it here for convenience:

1: Create or Destroy Water, Entangle
2: Maximilian's Earthen Grasp, Alter Self (so that you can grow tentacles or receive the underwater adaptation benefit)
3: Wall of Water, Water Breathing
4: Evard's Black Tentacles, Control Water
5: Telekinesis, Maelstrom

JakOfAllTirades also created his own expanded spell list in that thread, which I will also repost here for convenience:

1st level: Create or Destroy Water, Fog Cloud

2nd level: Alter Self, Warding Wind

3rd level: Tidal Wave, Wall of Water

4th level: Control Water, Evard's Black Tentacles

5th level: Cloudkill, Maelstrom

[DarkKnightJin]

Sounds like a "RISE FROM YOUR GRAVE" kind of situation lol. Yeh an approach similar to the "Dumb" EK sounds like the right way, picking up stuff that doesn't rely on spellcasting stats.

That's pretty accurate a comparison. Not so much for this guy, since he's gone Eldritch Knight with his latest level up. And has a 12 in Int. I'll be bumping that to 14 at 4th level Fighter, then maybe snagging Ritual Caster (Wizard) at 6th level Fighter.
Perhaps delay that ASI with a level in Warlock to get Devil's Sight and an untapped Invocation, since I want to end up with Aspect of the Moon for never sleeping.
I know that Invocation is fairly pointless to have, but I cannot help but love the flavor it would bring to the character.

[Solunaris]

Prestidigitation would actually come in handy with that background as well as shape water, tho isn't that stepping a bit into the realm of minor illusion?


Minor Illusion is also a spell I never leave home without, but it is limited in a different way. It creates a single sound or a static image; Prestidigitation can flavor food (making it taste like ash), clean or soil things (like your clothing and body in the morning or that oddly clean peasants trousers), and even create a physical object for a 6 second (like an inquisitors badge that you might flash for a brief moment). Beyond those really useful abilities it can also heat or chill organic matter or create a harmless sensory effect like a gust of wind or a shower of sparks.

[Pyramid Pug]

Minor Illusion is also a spell I never leave home without, but it is limited in a different way. It creates a single sound or a static image; Prestidigitation can flavor food (making it taste like ash), clean or soil things (like your clothing and body in the morning or that oddly clean peasants trousers), and even create a physical object for a 6 second (like an inquisitors badge that you might flash for a brief moment). Beyond those really useful abilities it can also heat or chill organic matter or create a harmless sensory effect like a gust of wind or a shower of sparks.

Talk about a cantrip I’d like in real life... let’s take this healthy salad full of greens and goodies AND FLAVOR IT LIKE STRAWBERRY CHEESECAKE!

Anywho... currently I have EB and Minor Illusion. I’ll pick up Guidance, Message and Shape Water (this one for flavor) since they’re out of class cantrips, and Prestidigitation when I reach lvl 4.

Unfortunately my DM wasn’t keen on the Kraken patron, but that’s fine, ‘cause it got me thinking.. I’ve been reading some guides on playing a controller type of character and was wondering if I should persuade my DM to let change my patron type to Archfey as it seems more suited to that kind of role.

And on a side note, I got 15 charisma, what would be a good half-feat to bump it to 16?

——— Edit———

Now that I look at it better.. I might be better served with Guidance, Shillelagh and BB/GFB for those situations in which I might have trouble getting out of melee. Armor of Agathys might be a good idea too. Imagine an enemy gets the drop on me (like in my last session), I have the armor up, cast shillelagh (bonus), BB and move out of the way. If the enemy attacks with the AoO and it connects, it triggers the armor and it takes damages, if it decides to chase me it takes damage from BB and if it doesn’t, then I’ve gained distance for EB.

[Solunaris]

And on a side note, I got 15 charisma, what would be a good half-feat to bump it to 16?


None of the half feats for Cha are all that great; but you know what is great? Having Con or Dex save proficiency. So, if you have even scores in one of those you could bump Cha by 1 and either Dex or Con by one and take Resilient next level to bump them. That would however put you a bit behind as far as your DCs and hit are concerned, but with bounded accuracy that isn't so much of a problem really.

Edit: Or any half feat that tickles your fancy really. The half feats are a great way to add flavor to a character since most of them are more RP focused than combat focused. But to answer your question directly, Actor is the only feat that also raises Charisma. Also, if you want a combat focused one Moderately Armored would work depending on your Dex score. It'd allow you to hold a shield and wear decent armor without needing to invest heavily in Dex. Combine that with a Quarter Staff as an Arcane Focus and Shillelagh and you don't need to run from melee, you are a decent threat in melee.

[Citan]

Sup folks, Pug here with a quick question.

So, come lvl 3 I’m thinking of going tomelock for the utility and versatility of it (we already have plenty of melee, and wasn’t sold on the chain pact).

My question is, what cantrips and rituals should I get? (once I get the ritual invocation that is)

I currently have EB and Minor Illusion, and was thinking of getting Guidance and Shocking Grasp (that one would have come in handy last session, grunff), what else would come in handy?

Btw, I’ve read Evilanagram’s excelent warlock and sorcerer’s guides, tho his cantrip sugestion obviously pertains only to the warlock list. I also think Evil missed the most epic, golden oportunity of putting a picture of Shrek’s smiling Donkey on the sorcerer bloodline section (“Dragon had a baby with what?!”) :smallbiggrin:
Hey! ;).

Did you miss the thread about Thorns Whip being awesome? ^^
Then check it out. Extra good on a Tomelock: with Repelling Blast, you can now precisely control the positioning of one creature both ways. ;)

Shocking Grasp is another great choice if you tend to be endangered by melee enemies.

Otherwise, I agree with others go with utility: Mage Hand and Mold Earth are primary choices. Shape Water, Mending and Message may are not be worthy depending on your campaign and your own attraction to them.

EDIT: catched up with the thread, can't believe I forgot about Prestidigitation. Although Thaumaturgy may be preferable for you. Prestidigitation has some exclusive, but also some overlap with Minor Illusion. Thaumaturgy tends to focus on sound rather, so you could pair it with Minor Illusion (although you'd have to think beforehand because obviously there would be a 6 sec delay between image and sound, since you won't multiclass Sorcerer fufufu).

-------
As for rituals...
I'd say "all"? XD
Seriously, unless you're retive about the concept, Find Familiar is always a fine choice for your granted ritual.
I'm also very partial to Unseen Servant, can be used in several ways in scouting/sneaking and also just adventuring really.

Beyond that, priority should be on Detect Magic, Gentle Repose, Silence, Phantom Steed and Leomund's Tiny Hut, then everything else.

[GorogIrongut]

I've always found, that if I'm playing a warlock and not going Hexblade, that going good or evil is the most fun (i.e. Celestial or Fiend). It takes minimal effort with Google to find a Dnd deity that is ocean based and fits your theme (I like Selene, Valkur or even Sune for this, although arguments could be made for multiple other deities.).
Because you want to be a support caster, I would:
Go for a Celestial Tomelock.

Celestial gives you an expanded spell list with some great support spells and a couple extra cantrips. While Sacred Flame is meh compared to EB, being a halfling without darkvision, Light is a must get cantrip.
As for why you really went for Celestial, you have no farther to look than Healing Light. Your party has a paladin who gets some nice, out of combat, laying on hands healing. But your party has minimal in combat healing. Healing Light is awesome in that it's a bonus action, non casting version of Healing Word... on steroids. Your party will keep popping back up like whack a moles.

Tomelock gets you all the rituals and a wide array of cantrips. You have your starting EB and Minor Illusion. Celestial gives you Sacred Flame and Light (yay). With this you could pick Shape Water, Mold Earth, Guidance along with a whole host of the other good ones. I'm partial to mage hand, friends, prestidigitation, etc. For your rituals, I'm a big fan of Identify (because I disagree with the ability to be able to spend a bit of time with a magic item to identify what it is... stupid rule change) and Find Familiar (Sea Gull familiar ftw).

Now I know you're tempted to take your charisma from 15 to 16. It's kind of a no brainer. But whenever I play a halfling, I try and get them the Lucky feat as soon as humanly (halflingly) possible. It's just loads of fun considering they're already lucky to make them uber lucky.

[Pyramid Pug]

None of the half feats for Cha are all that great; but you know what is great? Having Con or Dex save proficiency. So, if you have even scores in one of those you could bump Cha by 1 and either Dex or Con by one and take Resilient next level to bump them. That would however put you a bit behind as far as your DCs and hit are concerned, but with bounded accuracy that isn't so much of a problem really.

Edit: Or any half feat that tickles your fancy really. The half feats are a great way to add flavor to a character since most of them are more RP focused than combat focused. But to answer your question directly, Actor is the only feat that also raises Charisma. Also, if you want a combat focused one Moderately Armored would work depending on your Dex score. It'd allow you to hold a shield and wear decent armor without needing to invest heavily in Dex. Combine that with a Quarter Staff as an Arcane Focus and Shillelagh and you don't need to run from melee, you are a decent threat in melee.

Now that you mention it, I also have 15 in dex.. I was considering getting the second chance racial feat from Xanathar's but I might split the ASI and bump Dex and Char to 16. I had completely forgotten about it!

I currently have the at will mage armor invocation, tho come the next level I'll replace that with the book of ancient secrets, so might be worth it to check the armor proficiencies. I don't wanna be in melee tho.. (well not that it can be completely avoided, best laid plans of mice and halflings and all that).


Hey! ;).

Did you miss the thread about Thorns Whip being awesome? ^^
Then check it out. Extra good on a Tomelock: with Repelling Blast, you can now precisely control the positioning of one creature both ways. ;)

Shocking Grasp is another great choice if you tend to be endangered by melee enemies.

Otherwise, I agree with others go with utility: Mage Hand and Mold Earth are primary choices. Shape Water, Mending and Message may are not be worthy depending on your campaign and your own attraction to them.

EDIT: catched up with the thread, can't believe I forgot about Prestidigitation. Although Thaumaturgy may be preferable for you. Prestidigitation has some exclusive, but also some overlap with Minor Illusion. Thaumaturgy tends to focus on sound rather, so you could pair it with Minor Illusion (although you'd have to think beforehand because obviously there would be a 6 sec delay between image and sound, since you won't multiclass Sorcerer fufufu).

-------
As for rituals...
I'd say "all"? XD
Seriously, unless you're retive about the concept, Find Familiar is always a fine choice for your granted ritual.
I'm also very partial to Unseen Servant, can be used in several ways in scouting/sneaking and also just adventuring really.

Beyond that, priority should be on Detect Magic, Gentle Repose, Silence, Phantom Steed and Leomund's Tiny Hut, then everything else.

Well... one of the very first games I ever played as a kid was Castlevania Adventures on the gameboy. Fast forward 30 years to the present day and (among others) I have Vampire Killer as my phone ringtone, Bloody Tears, Battle of the Holy and Wicked Child on my drawing playlist and I'm a backer of Bloodstained (gonna have my name in the credits too). THAT should tell you how I feel about whips :smallbiggrin:

I fully intend to pick up repelling blast at a later date (for now the invocation pool is really small so choices must be made), and I really like that the thorn whip has a 30 feet range and the pulling is automatic (sizes aside). Since I'm thinking of making the character a controller this is a really good choice.. I was thinking of picking up BB or GFB, Guidance and Shillelagh, but what I might do instead is picking up Guidance, Shillelagh and Thorn Whip, and pick up BB when I get Spell Sniper.


Thing is, Spell Sniper comes in handy for my EB pokin' but the cantrip you get from it uses the spellcasting ability of whatever class I snag it from so I'm better off getting BB or GFB from it (also 60 feet thorn whip, giggity.. and why not.. on our first session we tied up the survivor of a group that attacked us and on the third session we tied up a burglar, so I already have the bondage jokes going on in the group lol)

As rituals go.. I was thinking Finding Familiar yeah, and identify, but I think my DM wants to tone down on the magic items (in the campaign where I play with my dwarven cleric we have magic items up our... well you get the idea), so picking up 'nother spell instead might be a good idea, with detect magic being a good idea. I have a bit of a disconnection with Finding Familiar tho, I still to this day don't understand how a rat doesn't have stealth, especially in places like towns, villages or caves/sewers, they're good swimmers too. Funny you mentioned Phantom Steed as I had my eye on it as well, reason being...

Flavour town, given the sea theme of my warlock, here's my plans:

- Find Familiar: Gonna pick up an Owl and fluff it as a seagull (my dm also made that joke)
- Thorn Whip: Have the whip made from barnacle encrusted algae

At a later date:
- Phantom Steed: Have it being a Kelpie, doesn't get more thematic than that! Love horse based monsters like Kelpies and Nightmares.
- Water breathing: Self explanatory I reckon.
- Having evasive and illusion based abilities based of of mist and fog
- Having charm abilities based around Siren's song. This would include stuff like Hold spells (the creature being paralysed due to being entranced), Fears (the siren call turns to a wail) and so on. Especially if I can convince my DM to let me change my Patron type to Archfey.
-Similar to the above, picking up stuff like Fog Cloud comes to mind. Would be an interesting alternative to the darkvision/darkness combo (tho fog obscures my vision as well.





I've always found, that if I'm playing a warlock and not going Hexblade, that going good or evil is the most fun (i.e. Celestial or Fiend). It takes minimal effort with Google to find a Dnd deity that is ocean based and fits your theme (I like Selene, Valkur or even Sune for this, although arguments could be made for multiple other deities.).
Because you want to be a support caster, I would:
Go for a Celestial Tomelock.

Celestial gives you an expanded spell list with some great support spells and a couple extra cantrips. While Sacred Flame is meh compared to EB, being a halfling without darkvision, Light is a must get cantrip.
As for why you really went for Celestial, you have no farther to look than Healing Light. Your party has a paladin who gets some nice, out of combat, laying on hands healing. But your party has minimal in combat healing. Healing Light is awesome in that it's a bonus action, non casting version of Healing Word... on steroids. Your party will keep popping back up like whack a moles.

Tomelock gets you all the rituals and a wide array of cantrips. You have your starting EB and Minor Illusion. Celestial gives you Sacred Flame and Light (yay). With this you could pick Shape Water, Mold Earth, Guidance along with a whole host of the other good ones. I'm partial to mage hand, friends, prestidigitation, etc. For your rituals, I'm a big fan of Identify (because I disagree with the ability to be able to spend a bit of time with a magic item to identify what it is... stupid rule change) and Find Familiar (Sea Gull familiar ftw).

Now I know you're tempted to take your charisma from 15 to 16. It's kind of a no brainer. But whenever I play a halfling, I try and get them the Lucky feat as soon as humanly (halflingly) possible. It's just loads of fun considering they're already lucky to make them uber lucky.

Huh... no thanks... no really, I already play a war cleric on another game (and in other games with classes I already tend to healer/support classes). I'm actually rather good at it (in fact I convinced my DM to let me pick the Healing Elixir spell from UA), but if people catch so much a wiff of healing ability then they expect you to be a dedicated healer EVEN when that's not a feasible concept like in D&D 5th, and what's more, they fall prey to the MMO mentality of a healer must keep the party topped at all times (which again is not something supported in D&D) and if you don't.. well you're obviously playing your class wrong.. never mind your years of experience in it and that said person never played a healer in any capacity before..

On a warlock those expectations are even worse given our limited spell slots, as people expect us to save those up for emergencies if we have healing spells. Good luck explaining them that controlling/killing enemies is a better "heal" than a cure wounds..

In all honesty, when I was making the character I took a look at the celestial patron and favoured soul combo, but I decided against it. It doesn't support my character concept neither thematically nor mechanically. And as for the healing as a bonus action.. sure, sounds good.. but how's that any different from a rogue with the healer feat, healing kits/ potions and cunning action? He can sneak attack, disengage/chance the AoO (and with evasion doesn't risk much), go to the downed character and heal him as a bonus action, and he does all this at will and without compromising his focus as whatever else it wants the character to be (a charming Errol Flynn corsair, a witty thief, an emo CRAWWWWLIIING IN MUUUUH SKIIIN assassin, and so on).

Sorry for the rant, but my healing scars run deep. :smallbiggrin:

Doing something similar with a caster would commit the character to that archetype for the long run and while expanding their abilities in that field, it would also limit their choices in other areas significantly.

Heck, as I type this you're making me think of actually dip a couple of levels in rogue for the sneak, expertise, proficiency in stealth and cunning action lol.. heck not a bad idea at all since he's a merchant belonging to a family with a hidden agenda..

Ritual wise.. on my other campaign I agree with yah 'cause we're swimming in unidentified items, and I'm planning on dipping a lvl in wizard with my cleric for some goodies, including identify as a ritual (and detect magic too to unload it off my prepared spells). That said precisely because of that, I think my DM wants to tone down on the magic item acquisition on the halfling campaign. I might pick up detect magic instead instead and see where we go from there.

Find familiar: Seagull is a go tho, even my DM made that joke as well (gonna be a owl fluffed as a 'gull). :smallbiggrin:

ASI wise.. sorry, having trouble hitting stuff, so I'm gonna bump Cha lol. Given that my Dex is also 15, I think I'll split bump the ASI and bump both to 16.

I can't thank you folks enough, you all making me consider stuff I hadn't before making my character more awesome in the process. Even if I don't take up the suggestions, the reasoning as to the why of the suggestion and to the why I don't take it is invaluable. :smallbiggrin:

[Tanarii]

Most common combat cantrip Pact of the Tome selections I see are Shocking Grasp to get away from nearby enemies, and Thorn Whip to be able to pull enemies. Shillelagh isn't uncommon, but warlocks that want backup melee more commonly go with Pact of the Blade. I sometimes see Vicious Mockery too.

Most common non-combat is Message. That's a very useful cantrip for communicating with scouts, or with the main party if you are a scout.

[Pyramid Pug]

Most common combat cantrip Pact of the Tome selections I see are Shocking Grasp to get away from nearby enemies, and Thorn Whip to be able to pull enemies. Shillelagh isn't uncommon, but warlocks that want backup melee more commonly go with Pact of the Blade. I sometimes see Vicious Mockery too.

Most common non-combat is Message. That's a very useful cantrip for communicating with scouts, or with the main party if you are a scout.

The feel I get from Blade pact is a full on commitment to melee more so than simply backup, but feel free to correct me. That's not my goal anyway as melee is already covered by the party (we have a monk and a paladin). My idea behind shillelagh/ BB is to dissuade the enemy from following me (while giving a not too shabby amount of damage), being a halfling I can only move 25 feet (50 if dashing) so most things will catch up with me unless given an obstacle of sorts.

Message.. I get the utility, but 120 feet is awfully short for scouting.. I mean that's the distance I can EB, and if they're in range for that, then the party can see me anyway. Mind you, it's useful for say.. you're imprisioned and want to discuss escape plans with the party without the guards hearing, but scouting wise, I think I'd prefer to write a short message, "coast clear", "patrol", "hostages", " hidden harem of Sune's dangerous room only halfling warlocks can enter" and have my familiar deliver the message to them (if I'm the one scouting).

[Tanarii]

The feel I get from Blade pact is a full on commitment to melee more so than simply backup, but feel free to correct me. That's not my goal anyway as melee is already covered by the party (we have a monk and a paladin). My idea behind shillelagh/ BB is to dissuade the enemy from following me (while giving a not too shabby amount of damage), being a halfling I can only move 25 feet (50 if dashing) so most things will catch up with me unless given an obstacle of sorts.Yes, usually it means your thinking more that just backup if you're going Pact of the Blade.

And SCAG cantrips are very good top too. I just don't allow them IMC.


Message.. I get the utility, but 120 feet is awfully short for scouting.. I mean that's the distance I can EB, and if they're in range for that, then the party can see me anyway.It's 120ft around corners, through screening darkness or foliage, and even through barriers that aren't thick enough. And you only need to be sufficiently far apart that the DM counts you as a separate party to be a scout (so you can stealth but they don't have to). I allow 30ft, but I've never had a DM require more than 60ft-90ft when I was playing AL. That's not a distance you want to be talking/yelling to communicate between the scout and the main party. Message is a whisper. Being able to constantly communicate back and forth between the scout and party is invaluable.

[GorogIrongut]

Huh... no thanks... no really, I already play a war cleric on another game (and in other games with classes I already tend to healer/support classes). I'm actually rather good at it (in fact I convinced my DM to let me pick the Healing Elixir spell from UA), but if people catch so much a wiff of healing ability then they expect you to be a dedicated healer EVEN when that's not a feasible concept like in D&D 5th, and what's more, they fall prey to the MMO mentality of a healer must keep the party topped at all times (which again is not something supported in D&D) and if you don't.. well you're obviously playing your class wrong.. never mind your years of experience in it and that said person never played a healer in any capacity before..

On a warlock those expectations are even worse given our limited spell slots, as people expect us to save those up for emergencies if we have healing spells. Good luck explaining them that controlling/killing enemies is a better "heal" than a cure wounds..

In all honesty, when I was making the character I took a look at the celestial patron and favoured soul combo, but I decided against it. It doesn't support my character concept neither thematically nor mechanically. And as for the healing as a bonus action.. sure, sounds good.. but how's that any different from a rogue with the healer feat, healing kits/ potions and cunning action? He can sneak attack, disengage/chance the AoO (and with evasion doesn't risk much), go to the downed character and heal him as a bonus action, and he does all this at will and without compromising his focus as whatever else it wants the character to be (a charming Errol Flynn corsair, a witty thief, an emo CRAWWWWLIIING IN MUUUUH SKIIIN assassin, and so on).

Sorry for the rant, but my healing scars run deep. :smallbiggrin:

Doing something similar with a caster would commit the character to that archetype for the long run and while expanding their abilities in that field, it would also limit their choices in other areas significantly.

Heck, as I type this you're making me think of actually dip a couple of levels in rogue for the sneak, expertise, proficiency in stealth and cunning action lol.. heck not a bad idea at all since he's a merchant belonging to a family with a hidden agenda..

Ritual wise.. on my other campaign I agree with yah 'cause we're swimming in unidentified items, and I'm planning on dipping a lvl in wizard with my cleric for some goodies, including identify as a ritual (and detect magic too to unload it off my prepared spells). That said precisely because of that, I think my DM wants to tone down on the magic item acquisition on the halfling campaign. I might pick up detect magic instead instead and see where we go from there.

Find familiar: Seagull is a go tho, even my DM made that joke as well (gonna be a owl fluffed as a 'gull). :smallbiggrin:

ASI wise.. sorry, having trouble hitting stuff, so I'm gonna bump Cha lol. Given that my Dex is also 15, I think I'll split bump the ASI and bump both to 16.

I can't thank you folks enough, you all making me consider stuff I hadn't before making my character more awesome in the process. Even if I don't take up the suggestions, the reasoning as to the why of the suggestion and to the why I don't take it is invaluable. :smallbiggrin:

Okay. No worries. If it goes against what you want or would damage your fun, then it's a non starter.
Though just for clarification, you do realize that Healing Spirit doesn't require you to be anywhere near the player? It's a ridiculously strong ability. You have a colleague taken down who's within 60' and as a bonus action you send a d6 worth of hp their way. No moving. No spell expenditure.

I'd push you towards Fiend then... but I get the feeling you'll have counter arguments (yes there are loads of baddies who would like to undermine Umberlee). Honestly, I'm getting the feeling that none of the official Warlock subclasses would fit your needs. Which is a shame.

I would unfortunately agree that the obvious choice is to go +1 in dex/cha. Maxing out those two stats is obvious.

Find Familiar would negate the need to use the Message cantrip. You need to take Shape Water to fit with the theme of your character. I personally don't see the need for shocking grasp (especially if you go rogue) or thorn whip (a great cantrip that unfortunately would necessitate you getting in hand to hand combat more frequently with it's use... something you're trying to avoid).

I'm a fan of the Sorceror multi class. But I'm not going to go there. If you go rogue, which I agree is thematic and provides you lots of goodies, then I would do 3 levels as a minimum so that you get Arcane Trickster (who using Mage Hand Legerdemain, could use the healing feat you mentioned above with a thief without ever having to go near the player... if you were thus wise inclined).

[Tanarii]

Find Familiar would negate the need to use the Message cantrip.
In what way does Find Familiar negate the need for message?

[Pyramid Pug]

Yes, usually it means your thinking more that just backup if you're going Pact of the Blade.

And SCAG cantrips are very good top too. I just don't allow them IMC.

It's 120ft around corners, through screening darkness or foliage, and even through barriers that aren't thick enough. And you only need to be sufficiently far apart that the DM counts you as a separate party to be a scout (so you can stealth but they don't have to). I allow 30ft, but I've never had a DM require more than 60ft-90ft when I was playing AL. That's not a distance you want to be talking/yelling to communicate between the scout and the main party. Message is a whisper. Being able to constantly communicate back and forth between the scout and party is invaluable.

Okay I need to make a distinction here.. in the game with my dwarven cleric we have organically developed two scouting modes (due to my dwarf being a heavy armour user with 11 dex).

1)- Terra incognita mode: We don't know what to expect, there may be enemies about but we got no reason to hide ourselves. In this mode our Rogue goes into stealth and travels/walks ahead of the party. Next is me since I have the shortest walking distance and a good perception and closing up the line is our barbarian who has the highest movement and can easily reach wherever needed as well as defending the back in case of ambush. In this case message is good as the rogue isn't that further away, tho we never felt need for it. Even in cases of ambushes/surprises/unexpected stuff, we have pre-arranged signs that mimic local wildlife for stop, come, enemies. If one is issued we either stop and wait for him to get back and report or rush, stealth be damned. We jokingly call that the CA-CAW method :smallbiggrin:

2)- Stealth Mission mode: In this situation for whatever reason, stealth is needed and my dwarf is hilariously bad at it or we have with us people that can't easily move or stealth. What we usually do in these situations is find a safe spot to dig in and let the rogue go ahead and scout the nearby area, looking for patrols, other safe spots, possible ways to our target, escape routes and so on. He goes out, comes back, and we plan on how to move quickly to the next spot or if combat is unavoidable, how to quickly dispatch enemies before the alarm is raised (and this is sort of a last case scenario 'cause even if no alarm is raised, a missing patrol will soon raise suspicion). In this case message does us no good because our rogue needs to move waaay more than 120 feet.

Plus message.. it doesn't require line of sight, but at the same time you need to know where the rogue is, and its restrictions are the same as a detect spell.

Again, in a crowded room scenario in which conversations need to be had discreetly, for sure, top notch spell. But has for scouting, given the range and positioning needed, I feel it can be better accomplished by other means. A familiar carrying a small written message, pre-arranged signs (KA-KAW, KA-KAAAWW :smallbiggrin:), waiting for the scout to come back, having a tiny creature as a familiar on the scout pocket with orders to bring back whatever the scout gives to it (like the previously mentioned message), and so on.


Okay. No worries. If it goes against what you want or would damage your fun, then it's a non starter.
Though just for clarification, you do realize that Healing Spirit doesn't require you to be anywhere near the player? It's a ridiculously strong ability. You have a colleague taken down who's within 60' and as a bonus action you send a d6 worth of hp their way. No moving. No spell expenditure.

I'd push you towards Fiend then... but I get the feeling you'll have counter arguments (yes there are loads of baddies who would like to undermine Umberlee). Honestly, I'm getting the feeling that none of the official Warlock subclasses would fit your needs. Which is a shame.

I would unfortunately agree that the obvious choice is to go +1 in dex/cha. Maxing out those two stats is obvious.

Find Familiar would negate the need to use the Message cantrip. You need to take Shape Water to fit with the theme of your character. I personally don't see the need for shocking grasp (especially if you go rogue) or thorn whip (a great cantrip that unfortunately would necessitate you getting in hand to hand combat more frequently with it's use... something you're trying to avoid).

I'm a fan of the Sorceror multi class. But I'm not going to go there. If you go rogue, which I agree is thematic and provides you lots of goodies, then I would do 3 levels as a minimum so that you get Arcane Trickster (who using Mage Hand Legerdemain, could use the healing feat you mentioned above with a thief without ever having to go near the player... if you were thus wise inclined).

Yeah, I'm well aware of healing light's parameters (even when I initially wrote that). The distance isn't relevant given the rogue mobility and ability to be an harrier type of character (even more so if he's a crossbow rogue) and a healing kit (with the feat) recovers 1d6+4+number of hit dices of the creature, as opposed to a healing light d6, limited only by the amount of healing kits the rogue has. Granted a creature can only benefit from a healing kit once per long rest, but we can also add healing potions to the mix which can even heal more. All of this without committing the rogue primary build unlike choosing a celestial patron for the warlock which determines everything else it will do in its adventuring career. Plus while healing light is a great ability, it's only ONE ability and choosing such a class defining role just because of one ability isn't a good idea. To be sure, if you're planning on being the party healer but like to toy with EB and invocations, Celestial is awesome, especially if paired with other healing classes, but like I've said, I already do that in another campaign (and games) and that's a road I don't want to go down to again.

"Yeah I get it, you have healing spells just in case but aren't a dedicated healer, no worries. Hey huh, I'm almost dead, how about you use your extremely limited spell slots and action economy and heal me some. I know you said you weren't a dedicated healer but you're the only with healing spells so... Yeah I know I'm not dead yet and they hit for more than you can heal, but I don't want to see my character go down.. Man that was a close call, we need to improve your healing, I know we killed the enemies and didn't need it, but that was too close to comfort"

I've heard this song a thousand times before lol.

Please understand that I'm a support kind of player to the core. I played all healing classes in WoW, the first and second Guild Wars, and I love strength multiplying kind of characters (minion mancers usually, but a buffing cleric is sort of this to the party too) in whatever games I play, heck in Overwatch what little games I played I always ended up as Mercy or Lucio. My very first D&D character was a bard and my longest lived character is my dwarven cleric, this is a role I gravitate naturally towards (same way I naturally gravitate towards spell casters). That said, I want to play as something else, let that be someone else's responsibility for once.

I'm genuinely enjoying discussing this with ya, mind you :smallbiggrin:

Fiend wise... nope lol. Mechanically that's more for blasters and bladelocks than controllers and thematically it does nothing for my character. My character is neutral good and while Archfey and GOO can run the alignment gamut (with most being beyond such mortal considerations if they even recognise them at all), Fiends are planted firmly on the evil side of things (tho granted, this too could be explained fluff wise, like say centuries ago a cabal of sorcerers got attacked by a fiend as part of the eternal war and in retaliation they bound it forever and condemned the creature to serve them and their descendants. The fiend can't act against nor disobey those of the bloodlines, but nothing stops him from subtly pitting one against the other).

Anywho, my DM got in touch with me and told me the change to Archfey is a go, as well as the Kelpie phantom steed (when I get there), the seagull familiar, the algae thorn whip and so on :smallbiggrin:

The thorn whip has a 30 feet range (60 with spell sniper) and only requires a hit to pull the critter, that's a convenient controlling tool and with out of combat uses as well. Heck, 60 feet is the size of the rope I have with my character now that I think about it. I agree with the Message part tho.

As for multiclassing, I'll admit that choosing between full warlock and warlock 2/sorcerer 18 was my hardest decision (I had even picked Sea Sorcery origin). In the end I committed to warlock because that was my original idea with the character, to play with EB and the at will invocations.

That said, I can do with a lvl 1 dip in a class as the lvl 20 capstone doesn't interest me much, but I get the feeling I might need the lvl 19 ASI (got low stats alas). Rogue for the expertise, sneak and stealth skill would be awesome, but a 1 dip into sorcerer would be also cool with sea sorcery and a few more cantrips (shape water in that case for sure).

One of these days I'll have to make an arcane trickster with the backup healer concept in mind. I said that bit as sort of a joke/extreme example, but now that I think about it more, I genuinely think it has potential.

[Tanarii]

Message won't give you away. Caw caw will.

Message allows you to communicate exact information if you're the scout, and tell him to wait up or fall back or anything you need if you're not. Caw caw can't do that beyond very basic signals.

Message can be heard clearly out to 120ft. Caw caw can't do that without making a lot of noise. You need to yell or talk very loudly to be clearly heard at that range.

Message doesn't require knowing where the scout or party is, just their general direction.

Message also has the advantage of going through thin walls, doors, floors, etc. it's very useful when you're in separate rooms of a building.

You're right, it won't help if the scout and party are far more than 120ft apart. Nor does caw caw, of course.

Not saying it's a must have. But it's a lot more useful than relying on visible hand signals or caw caw. And has far more practical utility to the standard adventuring group than many alternative cantrips.

[Pyramid Pug]

Message won't give you away. Caw caw will.

Message allows you to communicate exact information if you're the scout, and tell him to wait up or fall back or anything you need if you're not. Caw caw can't do that beyond very basic signals.

Message can be heard clearly out to 120ft. Caw caw can't do that without making a lot of noise. You need to yell or talk very loudly to be clearly heard at that range.

Message doesn't require knowing where the scout or party is, just their general direction.

Message also has the advantage of going through thin walls, doors, floors, etc. it's very useful when you're in separate rooms of a building.

You're right, it won't help if the scout and party are far more than 120ft apart. Nor does caw caw, of course.

Not saying it's a must have. But it's a lot more useful than relying on visible hand signals or caw caw. And has far more practical utility to the standard adventuring group than many alternative cantrips.


Message and Caw Caw doesn't give away, heavily armoured dwarf at 120 feet will :smallbiggrin:

Any exact information that needs communicating at 120 feet can be communicated in person as it is a distance than can be easily transversed in 2 turns, and if stealth is to be preserved, then it means the scout hasn't been found, meaning the scout can take a bit longer and get back to the party while still stealthed. Urgent communications at that distance are simple in nature, "Stop", "Come", "Enemies" can be communicated easily via code, especially code masked previously as the sound of a local animal so as to not raise suspicions. Anything beyond that, requires waiting for the scout reporting back, or casting spells like Sending or Animal Messenger.

Alternatively (and this is what we meant by Familiar makes the message redundant), a familiar can be used to ferry written messages back and forth between the scout and the party. The 100 yard range on the familiar is only for telepathic/sense sharing AFAIK (and that's assuming a non-warlock familiar). They usually have good stealth bonus too.

The text says it needs to know the direction of the message recipient or that the recipient is behind a wall, if the scout breaks line of sight with the party (which can happen often) and takes more than a couple of curves, the caster has no way to know where its current direction is. Plus stone walls block it readily just like detect spells, cave walls do it just as well.

It has more uses outside of scouting, in that we agree and I've even given examples of such, but in short range scouting it's no better than CAW-CAW, 'cause there's no need for complex communication at that range. We only need to know if we're to stop or to rush towards the scout to help him.

You love Message, and that's awesome make no mistake, and this is why I posted this thread to begin with, to get input and insight over things I wouldn't have considered otherwise, but our CAW-CAW system is simply something we built up organically between us simply because none of us had Message.

Heck I might convert the Caw-Caw system to be used with a familiar. Get a sack with small, coloured pebbles, give it to the scout and make the familiar go with it with orders to return with whatever the scout gives to it. Green pebbles for "everything is clear", yellow pebbles for "Stop" and red pebbles for "enemies". This has the advantage of being able to be used in long range scouting.

The reason I'm hesitant about picking message is because it can overlap with stuff I can do with other spells I already intend to pick up (find familiar for instance). That said if I dip say, sorcerer, I get 4 more cantrips to play with and make no mistake that Message will be there.

[Tanarii]

It's not that I love Message that much, but rather understanding of sound levels and decibels, and have incorporated them in to my game. And like many people, I was previously seriously overestimating the ability of sound to travel. After having actually looked them up, while trying to figure out what non-Thunder Wave/Knock sounds can be heard at, I have a better appreciation for it. The designers much have had a better understanding than I did, because they made Message very useful.

At 60ft, you need to be taking very loudly, to the point of shouting, to communicate effectively. Any effective caw caw at that distance will instantly give away the scouts position, and for that matter the party's as well if they are trying to communicate with the scout.

Meanwhile, normal conversation with someone next to you sounds has the volume of a whisper at something like 30ft. If a dwarf in heavy armor is much louder than that walking along, something very strange is going on.

Regardless of you're that exact in your games, it definitely seems weird that your caw caw is somehow not giving you away and yet your dwarf is. :smallamused:

Edit: even more regardless, I'm clearly belaboring the point at this point. If you don't feel the cantrip will have much use for you, that's really the important point. :smallwink:

[Pyramid Pug]

It's not that I love Message that much, but rather understanding of sound levels and decibels, and have incorporated them in to my game. And like many people, I was previously seriously overestimating the ability of sound to travel. After having actually looked them up, while trying to figure out what non-Thunder Wave/Knock sounds can be heard at, I have a better appreciation for it. The designers much have had a better understanding than I did, because they made Message very useful.

At 60ft, you need to be taking very loudly, to the point of shouting, to communicate effectively. Any effective caw caw at that distance will instantly give away the scouts position, and for that matter the party's as well if they are trying to communicate with the scout.

Meanwhile, normal conversation with someone next to you sounds has the volume of a whisper at something like 30ft. If a dwarf in heavy armor is much louder than that walking along, something very strange is going on.

Regardless of you're that exact in your games, it definitely seems weird that your caw caw is somehow not giving you away and yet your dwarf is. :smallamused:

Edit: even more regardless, I'm clearly belaboring the point at this point. If you don't feel the cantrip will have much use for you, that's really the important point. :smallwink:

I'm a night shift recepionist at an hotel, and 120 feet is roughly the distance from my place to the corner of the street, I'm used to dealing with both loud noises and people trying to sneak. When I make my way to work I can hear the noise from the bar directly in front of the hotel by the time I'm passing by the grocery store which is about double the distance from the corner. I notice the patrol cars, the delivery vans and the taxis before they make the turn on the corner (and to this day I still don't understand how the bloke that delivers the magazines to a paper store near the hotel still hasn't run over someone given the speed he passes by).

All of this and I can assure you I don't have sharp hearing, my boss does. She recently asked me to switch from my traditional boots to a shoe like sneakers because she could hear me at night going up the stairs to the 2nd floor to prep the breakfast room while she was in her room on the 3rd floor on the far side of the hotel. I didn't change my way of walking or anything, but she told she stopped hearing me since I switched the shoes.

Someone wearing heavy armor will have much more weight than me, not to mention the sound of metal clinking and rasping on metal and it will certainly be heard at 120 feet distance. Maybe if it's outdoors, raining and the ground is muddy, the sounds will be muffled, but otherwise the sound will echo and travel far. Heck the expo pavillion is on the opposite side of town and if the wind is blowing from that direction we easily hear the concerts playing there.

CAW-CAW doesn't reveal anything because it mimics the natural sounds in a predetermined way (which is something I've said before), any enemy around will only hear the regular sounds they're already used to hearing and don't bat an eye unless they have a specific reason to be looking for something. A patrol having been warned that there might be intruders nearby might notice there's something odd about the sound, but a patrol just doing their rounds like they do everyday won't have a reason to think it suspicious.

If anything you're the one underestimating just how far sound can travel, especially in 1) closed environments like tunnels, hallways or narrow streets, and 2) At night where the there's much less ambient sounds going about so any disturbance will be far more noticeable. During my shifts I can hear people easily on the street (and I often have to ask them to be quiet since there are guests sleeping nearby, if they aren't moving away from the hotel), the front neighbours opening and closing their doors, the bakery besides us (directly in front of the 120 ft corner) setting up their tables outside and so on, and all of this, from within the reception. Now, can I hear cats meowing outside? Yes just like all the other noises, but I have no reason to think anything of it.

In my experience as a night shifter (and tho receptionist my duties crossover a bit into watchman area as well), it's not so much a "sound of someone talking or walking" that puts me on alert as much as "this is a sound/vibration that shouldn't be here" (I reckon game wise this would be a passive perception check), once I get to that point I try actively figure out what was it I just heard, like people in the hallway, people in the street, the "Not so secret" patrol car, a door slamming (game wise an active perception check). Someone walking about in a suit of armour would certainly fit the bill of "sounds that shouldn't be here" lol :smallbiggrin:

And by the way, the hotel has 3 floors and a terrace. I can hear people walking on the hallways and stairs up to that distance as well as the doors opening and closing (if they're not careful that is), of course most of them aren't trying to sneak, but most of them aren't wearing full sets of heavy armor.. I hope..

In any case, I'll ask my DM at what distance can people talking be heard and at what distance can someone walking in heavy armor be heard (that is to say, at what distance does the scout need to be from my patented dwarven ambush finding technique). That's the only metric that matters in this situation, more so than any personal experience.

I never thought about it much, and it's my weekend, but come next week I'll pay attention at what distance I can hear stuff given the corner reference (I used google maps when I was looking for a distance reference).

[GorogIrongut]

You seem to have everything figured out, I'm just going to make one more suggestion, because Archfey still doesn't seem to be right to me. Even though your DM has already okayed it. :P

In the UA where we first saw the Hexblade, WotC also released the unofficial rules for the Raven Queen. Retain those mechanics but remove the Raven Queen and replace it with your Sea Based Deity (insert any of the ones I mentioned in an earlier post). Instead of a Sentinel Raven, you get a Sentinel Cormorant/Albatross/Gull.

[GorogIrongut]

"Yeah I get it, you have healing spells just in case but aren't a dedicated healer, no worries. Hey huh, I'm almost dead, how about you use your extremely limited spell slots and action economy and heal me some. I know you said you weren't a dedicated healer but you're the only with healing spells so... Yeah I know I'm not dead yet and they hit for more than you can heal, but I don't want to see my character go down.. Man that was a close call, we need to improve your healing, I know we killed the enemies and didn't need it, but that was too close to comfort"

I've heard this song a thousand times before lol.

I have a lot of variability in what I play, but my first character and my first love was and always will be a Dwarf Cleric. Which goes to say that I'm familiar with this story... and I don't let it get to me. They tend to shut up when I snark back. They can only handle being told that they just need to play their characters better so that they don't falsely think I need to heal them, before they stop suggesting it.

If I'd been in your situation though, I just wouldn't have taken any healing spells. Your spells are all warlock spells except for the 10 extra ones you get. Of which, only one is a healing spell (I don't count lesser and greater restoration and Revivify). If you don't take Cure Wounds, then they can't keep asking you to heal them with anything but the Healing Light.

'Hey Stupid Head! How many times do I have to tell you I have no healing spells. I have warlock spells. Being a Celestial Warlock just got me the fantastic Healing Light ability, which should be enough to save a bag full of morons. Unfortunately when they were thinking it up, they didn't take you into consideration. Play your character better before my Patron/Deity decides they dislike you so much that I won't ever be able to heal you. Cause S/he/It don't like wasting magical resources on what should obviously be left to the Dnd equivalent of the Darwin Awards.'
'I cast Armor of Agathys instead.'

[Citan]

Well... one of the very first games I ever played as a kid was Castlevania Adventures on the gameboy. Fast forward 30 years to the present day and (among others) I have Vampire Killer as my phone ringtone, Bloody Tears, Battle of the Holy and Wicked Child on my drawing playlist and I'm a backer of Bloodstained (gonna have my name in the credits too). THAT should tell you how I feel about whips :smallbiggrin:

In my arms! :smallbiggrin::smallredface:


I fully intend to pick up repelling blast at a later date (for now the invocation pool is really small so choices must be made), and I really like that the thorn whip has a 30 feet range and the pulling is automatic (sizes aside). Since I'm thinking of making the character a controller this is a really good choice.. I was thinking of picking up BB or GFB, Guidance and Shillelagh, but what I might do instead is picking up Guidance, Shillelagh and Thorn Whip, and pick up BB when I get Spell Sniper.

Technically it is automatic, but it is "up to 10 feet". So 0 feet is a perfectly valid choice (if your DM wants to play the extremely rigid PITA, tell him/her you pull it by one inch and be done with it, although he could reverse the play by saying it's enough to break free from a grapple... In the end, just ensure you have a reasonable DM and you're good to go ^^).



Thing is, Spell Sniper comes in handy for my EB pokin' but the cantrip you get from it uses the spellcasting ability of whatever class I snag it from so I'm better off getting BB or GFB from it (also 60 feet thorn whip, giggity.. and why not.. on our first session we tied up the survivor of a group that attacked us and on the third session we tied up a burglar, so I already have the bondage jokes going on in the group lol)
Yeah, you're perfectly right, but I did think about getting Thorns Whip from Pact and choosing something else with Spell Sniper, possibly Eldricht Blast: it's not like it's a big deal to wait up to level 4, imo at least, especially if you don't plan on taking Repelling Blast early. Even Agonizing Blast makes an interesting difference at low level, but not a breathtaking difference enough to warrant the often read "take Agonizing Blast right now or you're doing it wrong".
As long as you get the cantrip and either invocation at level 5... ;)

Good job on stressing the constraint though, maybe my wording could have mislead people. ;=)

[Pyramid Pug]

You seem to have everything figured out, I'm just going to make one more suggestion, because Archfey still doesn't seem to be right to me. Even though your DM has already okayed it. :P

In the UA where we first saw the Hexblade, WotC also released the unofficial rules for the Raven Queen. Retain those mechanics but remove the Raven Queen and replace it with your Sea Based Deity (insert any of the ones I mentioned in an earlier post). Instead of a Sentinel Raven, you get a Sentinel Cormorant/Albatross/Gull.

I really liked the mechanics of that pact, but thematically doesn't fit well even if flavoured as a sea based vestige of sorts. The Archfey covers a lot of different aristocracy of the fey, not just your green doods in green PJ's sittin' around big ol' trees lol. Besides D&D I love Worlds of Darkness both old and new and know more about that lore than I do D&D. One of my favorite splats is Changeling the Lost which does an excelent job of portraying the majestic inhumanity of the True Gentry, far, far from the sanitised disney version of fairies and pixies.

This is why I think Archfey fits the bill:

The Gurgling Merchant, always by a brook and whose voice seems unseparated from the sound of water, it never asks for coin but always be weary of its deals.

Duchess of Kelpies, a huge kelpie said to have feasted on giants. She's mother to a vast circus of kelpies who pay her tribute with the flesh of drowned humanoids.

Siren's Choir, their voices tapped into the primordial sound from before creation and so they seek a purer form of music, one free from the discordant conducting of the gods. They readily serve as teachers and muses to bards everywhere who find out about them, but those that seek them soon discover that you can't separate song from singer.

You get the idea.. what I like about warlock patrons is that you can get really creative with them, without having to step on the toes of lore established gods and godesses. Old ones, Primordials, Vestiges, Ghosts of dead gods, Devils and Demons, Inscrutable Fey and even weirder things, it's really fun to come up with new concepts and themes.




I have a lot of variability in what I play, but my first character and my first love was and always will be a Dwarf Cleric. Which goes to say that I'm familiar with this story... and I don't let it get to me. They tend to shut up when I snark back. They can only handle being told that they just need to play their characters better so that they don't falsely think I need to heal them, before they stop suggesting it.

If I'd been in your situation though, I just wouldn't have taken any healing spells. Your spells are all warlock spells except for the 10 extra ones you get. Of which, only one is a healing spell (I don't count lesser and greater restoration and Revivify). If you don't take Cure Wounds, then they can't keep asking you to heal them with anything but the Healing Light.

'Hey Stupid Head! How many times do I have to tell you I have no healing spells. I have warlock spells. Being a Celestial Warlock just got me the fantastic Healing Light ability, which should be enough to save a bag full of morons. Unfortunately when they were thinking it up, they didn't take you into consideration. Play your character better before my Patron/Deity decides they dislike you so much that I won't ever be able to heal you. Cause S/he/It don't like wasting magical resources on what should obviously be left to the Dnd equivalent of the Darwin Awards.'
'I cast Armor of Agathys instead.'

-While playing WoW-

"OI NOOB HEALER, I DIED BECAUSE OF YOU, WHY DIDN'T YOU HEALED ME?!"

"Heal you..you mean when you died from the mine?"

"YES!"

"The big neon red glowing mine on the floor that takes five seconds to explode?"

"YES!"

"The one that instantly kills you when it explodes no matter the health?"

"YES, WHY DIDN'T YOU HEAL?!"

And another one, this one I didn't even talk, the rogue did..

-Party wipe on the first mobs of the dungeon, tank gets furious-

"HEAL MUCH YOU NOOB?! I'M THE TANK AND DIDN'T GET A SINGLE HEAL!!"

"The healer was the first one to die, as soon as the first tick from the rejuvenation hit, the mobs made a beeline to him 'cause all you did was auto attack. Even when he lured the mobs to you, you did nothing to peel them off of him..."

Honestly, my motto has a healer has since become the "But did you die?" reaction image lol :smallbiggrin:


In my arms! :smallbiggrin::smallredface:

Technically it is automatic, but it is "up to 10 feet". So 0 feet is a perfectly valid choice (if your DM wants to play the extremely rigid PITA, tell him/her you pull it by one inch and be done with it, although he could reverse the play by saying it's enough to break free from a grapple... In the end, just ensure you have a reasonable DM and you're good to go ^^).


Yeah, you're perfectly right, but I did think about getting Thorns Whip from Pact and choosing something else with Spell Sniper, possibly Eldricht Blast: it's not like it's a big deal to wait up to level 4, imo at least, especially if you don't plan on taking Repelling Blast early. Even Agonizing Blast makes an interesting difference at low level, but not a breathtaking difference enough to warrant the often read "take Agonizing Blast right now or you're doing it wrong".
As long as you get the cantrip and either invocation at level 5... ;)

Good job on stressing the constraint though, maybe my wording could have mislead people. ;=)

Oh when I said automatic I meant it as in there's no save to resist the pull unlike Lightning Lure (well other than hitting the enemy with it that is). I think that overall it's easier to hit AC than to have an enemy fail a strength check.

I'm having trouble hitting stuff so I'll probably delay getting spell sniper for the time being and boost my CHA instead. That said you're absolutely right about Agonizing blast, there's nothing stopping me from replacing with something else if need be. I'll need to consider the order in which to get the things as it would come in handy getting Thorn Whip with the book of shadows so its a class skill.

[Pyramid Pug]

Aight quickly prepping up stuff as my session begins in 10 minutes. Think the best course of action is getting guidance, shillelagh and thorn whip with the book of shadows as they are out of class cantrips and get BB on the next warlock cantrip available or when getting the spell sniper (probably the first as I need the ASI to bump my cha and dex). If I dip into sorcerer I'll get shape water and message as well (and probably prestidigitation).

'Nother cantrip I've considered is Primal Savagery. I like the idea of my halfling's mouth sudenly deform into that of an abyssal fish and start nomming on a baddie's shins. :smallbiggrin:

[Pyramid Pug]

VERY IMPORTANT UPDATE FROM MY LAST SESSION!

Monk: “We brought the dog with us yes? Just in case we need to show it to the old lady.”

Me: “Yeh, I think the old lady hasn’t had enough life traumas yet..”

Monk laughs

DM: “Wait, wait, wait.. you still have the dead dog body with you?!”

Me: “Well yeah.. it’s mumiffied so it’s not like it smells.. doesn’t make noises nor messes and doesn’t eat much either.. heck let’s adopt it! Taxidermy is a fun and well respected hobby anyway!”

I like combat and all, but it’s moments like this that get engraved in my memory :smallbiggrin:


Anywho.. was kind of thinking since that seed of an idea got implanted in me when we were talking MC here..

What if I go pact of the blade and MC rogue, dropping EB and agonizing blast entirely and getting the Moon Bow invocation (well only with a short bow instead of a long bow), as well as a whip?

That would get me the benefit of sneak attacks, plus all the juicy rogue goodness, as well as making good use of my natural stealthy racial.

Whip + spell sniper would let me use BB at 10 feet, cunning action would let me hide as a bonus using my team mates, 3 levels into rogue would net me Assassin for some alpha striking

Could go further into warlock getting eldritch smite and more slots and invocations, or go further into rogue for the added sneak dice and ASIs.

Btw I mentioned the assassin for the alpha strike capability, but I’m open to sugestions.