coffeelock what to take

[Amdy_vill]

so i am going to be playing a coffeelock in a game coming up. so i known i should take elf as my race but what type of elf and what should me levels look like. how many in sorcerer, how many in warlock and at what levels do I take them. also what subclasses.

[Fire Tarrasque]

Okay.
Firstly: Your a horrible person, Coffeelock is broken.

Secondly: Here you go.
Be a drow, for +1 Charisma.
Take two levels in Warlock, and go Pact of the Tome, with the Celestial patron. Now, take the Aspect of the Moon pact boon.
Now, every other level goes in Sorcerer.
What you do: ONLY TAKE SHORT RESTS. NO LONG RESTS EVER. Every short rest you take, turn your Pact Magic slots into Sorcery Points. Now, these extra Sorcery points remain... Until you take a long rest. Thanks to Aspect of the moon, you aren't gaining exhaustion from lack of sleep. The trick is you need in game time. Try to get a week of down time, and you get... A lot of sorcery points. IDK. You do the math.
You can then convert those points into spell slots, and since you have Cure Wounds from Celestial, you don't need hit dice.
Your done now.

[Amdy_vill]

Okay.
Firstly: Your a horrible person, Coffeelock is broken.

Secondly: Here you go.
Be a drow, for +1 Charisma.
Take two levels in Warlock, and go Pact of the Tome, with the Celestial patron. Now, take the Aspect of the Moon pact boon.
Now, every other level goes in Sorcerer.
What you do: ONLY TAKE SHORT RESTS. NO LONG RESTS EVER. Every short rest you take, turn your Pact Magic slots into Sorcery Points. Now, these extra Sorcery points remain... Until you take a long rest. Thanks to Aspect of the moon, you aren't gaining exhaustion from lack of sleep. The trick is you need in game time. Try to get a week of down time, and you get... A lot of sorcery points. IDK. You do the math.
You can then convert those points into spell slots, and since you have Cure Wounds from Celestial, you don't need hit dice.
Your done now.
i think you mean three levels in warlock. i don't get a pact boon till level 3

[Unoriginal]

Coffeelock is broken.

It's broken in the sense that it doesn't work.

If you take a week of downtime, you're not using short rests.

[Fire Tarrasque]

Well... There's nothing that says you can't. For most character, no, you shouldn't be using short rests.
But for the Cofeelock SPECIFICALLY, a long rest is a BAD thing. If you take a long rest, you lose all your extra sorcery points.
If you lose your sorcery points, your not crippled, but now your just a multiclassed warlock/sorcerer.
Furthermore, you don't get the sleep bad stuff from Xanathar's thanks to Aspect of the Moon, which means you don't have to sleep.
Look just... Have a link to a thread that explains it better than I can.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?409694-The-Coffee-Drow-A-Sleepless-Sorclock
The original Coffeelock thread.
Take it.
But for the love of all that is good, in the name of the Emperor and for the fun of EVERYONE else in your group:
Don't use it. Please, i'm begging you, make another character.

[Vogie]

Thanks to Aspect of the moon, you aren't gaining exhaustion from lack of sleep.

That's not actually true. It just says that you don't need to sleep, and can be awake doing light activity during a long rest, not unlike an elf.

They clarified it in a Sage Advice (https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/SA_Compendium_1.03.pdf):

In short, a long rest and sleep aren’t the same thing; you can sleep when you’re not taking a long rest, and you can take a long rest and not sleep.

Not taking long rests still will cause exhaustion, which will eventually cause death.

EDIT: Excuse me, I thought the exhaustion was immediate, but the rule is:

Whenever you end a 24-hour period without finishing a long rest, you must succeed on a DC 10 Constitution saving throw or suffer one level of exhaustion.

My bad - still accurate but wasn't complete. A tweet by JC as well (https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/938568519385456641)


Also, all Undying warlocks don't need sleep after level 10 without any invocations.

[Ganymede]

What should you take?

You should take a nap, a good eight-hour nap.

[Fire Tarrasque]

Alright then. A DC 10 con save is something you can consistently make.

[gloryblaze]

Alright then. A DC 10 con save is something you can consistently make.

The DC ramps by 5 for each consecutive 24 hour period you go without a long rest.

@OP: you should pick Divine Soul sorcerer to eventually get Greater Restoration, so you can cure the exhaustion you will eventually start to accumulate (after a week of coffeelocking, the DC will be 45. Don't bother trying to succeed, work on remedy rather than prevention).

[Malifice]

If you take a week of downtime, you're not using short rests.

Wut? Yes you are.

A short rest is a period of downtime, at least 1 hour long, during which a character does nothing more strenuous than eating, drinking, reading, and tending to wounds.

If your PC is doing (for example) the research downtime activity, or buying a magic item, or carousing, or whatever then they are 'spending an hour or more doing nothing more strenuous than eating, drinking, reading and tending to wounds.'

A PC riding a horse for an hour along a road, watching the countryside go by is Short resting.

Of course none of this matters, because games have DMs, and clearly the rest system isn't there to be gamed by whiny entitled gamist ****s of players.

A player that looked up at me and announced 'I'm taking half a dozen short rests in a row' in an effort to game the system, gets met with a 'Cool, nothing happens, and if you try anything remotely like that again, you can play elsewhere.'

Player argues the point, he gets met with a firmer 'No'. He carries on, and he gets his ass uninvited from the game.

Its an elegant solution.

[Daithi]

Initially the idea was to take an Elf race that didn't need sleep, and then never take a long rest. However, the rulings pointed out above nerf this because elves still become exhausted without a long rest. Nevertheless, all is not lost.

What you you need to do is become a Divine Soul Sorcerer. This gives you access to the Greater Restoration cleric spell, which lets you recover an exhaustion level. This is a 5th level spell, so you want to get to 9th level Sorcerer as soon as possible. You can't be a coffeelock until then. On the other hand, you don't have to forego long rest completely to take advantage of converting warlock spell slots to sorcerer spell points and visa-versa.

So, to start your day, you could do so by taking a few extra short rests each morning to build up sorcerer spell points. The higher your warlock level the more sorcerer spell points you can create, but you want to get to 9th level sorcerer as quick as you can to get access to Greater Restoration. So, maybe 2 levels warlock and then 2 levels of sorcerer (flexible casting kicks in here). Now take sorcerer to level 9, and after that you can switch back to taking warlock levels. Ultimately you will want Warlock-9/Sorcerer-9 for the 5th level spells they both offer, as 6th level and higher spells are useless to you. Where you put your last 2 levels doesn't much matter. Also keep in mind that the Divine Soul Sorcerer also has access to the cleric spell list.

As for which spells you should take? That's up to you, but keep in mind that for a coffeelock spells like Misty Step now become basically at will spells (even coffeelocks have limits though). A spell like Sleep becomes really powerful as well when you can cast it over and over again, as does even the lowest level healing spell.

Also keep in mind that Eldritch Blast scales with character level and not warlock level, so even as your taking sorcerer levels it is still getting stronger. I like being a long range sniper with this thing (i.e. Eldritch Spear is pretty good and goes well with the Distance Spell metamagic), but if the enemy gets too close then turning out the lights is pretty good too (i.e. Darkness & Devil's Sight), especially if you go Hexblade as a warlock.

[Ganymede]

Wut? Yes you are.

Arguably, you're taking a single two-week-long short rest.

[Citan]

Initially the idea was to take an Elf race that didn't need sleep, and then never take a long rest. However, the rulings pointed out above nerf this because elves still become exhausted without a long rest. Nevertheless, all is not lost.

What you you need to do is become a Divine Soul Sorcerer. This gives you access to the Greater Restoration cleric spell, which lets you recover an exhaustion level. This is a 5th level spell, so you want to get to 9th level Sorcerer as soon as possible. You can't be a coffeelock until then. On the other hand, you don't have to forego long rest completely to take advantage of converting warlock spell slots to sorcerer spell points and visa-versa.

Or, don't try to be an absurdly game-breaking piece of s*** and take long rests like everyone else.

That way, you can argue that you start with ample spellcasting power when your party can anticipate the next big day of fights (because you actually didn't take a long-rest that time, instead multiple short rests), so you can occasionally break everything in terms of staying power (although in practice you'll probably still be manageable thanks to the delay in accessing the higher level spells) but you can stay at the table.

Otherwise, the DM will just push you out sooner or later especially once you get past the char level 10 threshold or so.

So don't worry about being an Elf and having to pick the Fey patron just for the invocation and/or picking Divine Soul just for Greater Restoration. That is a purely gamist move, totally unneeded to be great, but completely sufficient to make the game unpleasant for everyone else.

Besides that...
Honestly there are many ways to build a coffeelock. Tell us about the kind of character you'd like to play, putting aside the resource. Like which 3rd or 4th level spells you'd really like to play with, if you want to be purely a caster or a gish, if there is a Metamagic or Invocation you fancy especially, that kind of things...

[Daithi]

Or, don't try to be an absurdly game-breaking piece of s*** and take long rests like everyone else.

That way, you can argue that you start with ample spellcasting power when your party can anticipate the next big day of fights (because you actually didn't take a long-rest that time, instead multiple short rests), so you can occasionally break everything in terms of staying power (although in practice you'll probably still be manageable thanks to the delay in accessing the higher level spells) but you can stay at the table.

Otherwise, the DM will just push you out sooner or later especially once you get past the char level 10 threshold or so.

So don't worry about being an Elf and having to pick the Fey patron just for the invocation and/or picking Divine Soul just for Greater Restoration. That is a purely gamist move, totally unneeded to be great, but completely sufficient to make the game unpleasant for everyone else.

Besides that...
Honestly there are many ways to build a coffeelock. Tell us about the kind of character you'd like to play, putting aside the resource. Like which 3rd or 4th level spells you'd really like to play with, if you want to be purely a caster or a gish, if there is a Metamagic or Invocation you fancy especially, that kind of things...

The OP asked about what to take to be a coffeelock. I gave my opinion and answered his question based on the game's rules. I also tried to do so without being judgmental or insulting. I've found this is a good approach to interacting with other people. But hey, to each his own.

[Unoriginal]

Arguably, you're taking a single two-week-long short rest.

No, it's not arguable. You're not adventuring, you're taking a two-week-long rest, which is by definition not short.

[Citan]

The OP asked about what to take to be a coffeelock. I gave my opinion and answered his question based on the game's rules. I also tried to do so without being judgmental or insulting. I've found this is a good approach to interacting with other people. But hey, to each his own.
Funny thing is, at no time did I ever judge or insult you.
What I was pointing out is that someone following all you said would be metagaming and cheesing the game to the extreme, and THAT would be extremely annoying to say the least for everyone around the table.
And someone that would play what he wants without taking other people's fun into account is behaving like an ***.
That was the judgemental / insulting part, and I stand by it.
Roleplaying game is a social game. Behaving consciously in a way that brings problems to others is just gonna ruin the experience for everyone, cheeser included.
And we are each entitled to behave as we want, I just think it's better to know in advance the probable perception of it.

Afterwards, what value someone gives to my opinion is his/her own choice, we are in a free world.

Just being a Warlock / Sorcerer and taking several short rests when possible is extremely powerful, enough to get the feeling of infinite spell casting.

Metagaming to get rid of long rest limits should never be encouraged, unless everyone else at the table expressly all said "we don't mind" beforehand.

On the other hand, trying to convince other player characters to work with him by for example investing in Catnap or Rope Trick in exchange of serving them in utility would be perfectly fine because you are sparing space to other characters and using your cheese to develop roleplay/tactical relationships instead of trying to overshadow people.
(Annnd, yet, that's obviously a big preconception on my part, but I cannot believe that one would like to be the only one with infinite spellcasting without that kind of intention behind. But hey, maybe I see evil for nothing. ;))

Now then back on topic...

----
@OP
Didn't see new pots on your part, so I'll give a few classic builds of mine.

Always start Sorcerer 1 for Constitution saving throws except when told otherwise.

FireBlaster (pre-Xanathars)
Fiend Tome Warlock 5 / Draconic Bronze Sorcerer 6 / Evoker Wizard 2.
Sorcerer 1 > Warlock 5 > Wizard 2 > Sorcerer 6 (obviously Empowered)
Wizard is here just to make it easier to use with friends. Obviosuly if frontliners in your party can eat and digest Fireballs (Rogues, Monks, anyone with Shield Master) you don't care about Wizard at all.
By the time you can cast a Fireball every turn (or nearly), other people will have high-level features so it should be ok.

FireBlaster (post-Xanathars)
Same but with Celestial Warlock 6 obviously.

FireBlaster (UA)
Same with Celestial Warlock 6 and Phoenix Sorcerer whatever.

Gish (PHB)
Fiend Blade Warlock 14-15 / Draconic Sorcerer 5-6
Obviously a DEX-based, going Draconic for defense, picking Warcaster so you get a third attack early. Sorcerer 6 is advised so you can create 4th level slots, but at the same time Demiplane or Feeblemind are nice to get too.

Gish (post-Xanathars)
Hexblade Tome Warlock 9 / Divine Soul Sorcerer 11 for maximum coffee and all rituals, otherwise 6 / 14 split to get wings as capstone if you wish. Get Extended, Subtle and Quicken.
THIS is a build I put FYI, but I wouldn't recommend it because it's by far the most potential in taking the spotlight: rituals (possibly all), lots of 5th level spells (upcast Spirit Guardian / Fireball / whatever, you could actually smap upcast Sleep to good effect), you have healing (Cleric spells, feature), control (Fear / Slow / Hypnotic Pattern), sustained (weapon cantrips + Shadow Blade) AOE (Fireball) and nova (Disintegrate, double Agonizing Hex Blast or mix upcast Scorching Ray) damage.
Well, what I say though would hold true after char level 10 or so. If you don't think you will reach that, go without fear. :)

[sightlessrealit]

Wut? Yes you are.

A short rest is a period of downtime, at least 1 hour long, during which a character does nothing more strenuous than eating, drinking, reading, and tending to wounds.

If your PC is doing (for example) the research downtime activity, or buying a magic item, or carousing, or whatever then they are 'spending an hour or more doing nothing more strenuous than eating, drinking, reading and tending to wounds.'

A PC riding a horse for an hour along a road, watching the countryside go by is Short resting.

Of course none of this matters, because games have DMs, and clearly the rest system isn't there to be gamed by whiny entitled gamist ****s of players.

A player that looked up at me and announced 'I'm taking half a dozen short rests in a row' in an effort to game the system, gets met with a 'Cool, nothing happens, and if you try anything remotely like that again, you can play elsewhere.'

Player argues the point, he gets met with a firmer 'No'. He carries on, and he gets his ass uninvited from the game.

Its an elegant solution.

And that player will be warmly welcomed in my group. Elegant indeed.

[Malifice]

Arguably, you're taking a single two-week-long short rest.

Get up every hour and a bit and run for a few minutes.

[Veldrenor]

There are two main ways to go coffeelock. The first is play an elf, preferably drow for the charisma bonus. This lets the coffeelock go active as early as level 3 (warlock 1 for the short-rest slots, sorcerer 2 for sorcery points).

The second takes longer to go active but generates spell slots more quickly. You take 2 levels of sorcerer and 3 levels in warlock, pact of the tome, aspect of the moon invocation. This way you can take 7-8 short rests during the night instead of 4-5 and are not limited to playing an elf.

Regardless of which of the above you go with, you'll likely want to start with sorcerer for the con save proficiency since your concentration spells will rely on it. After that, take your 2nd sorcerer level and then 3 levels in warlock: two 2nd level spells per short rest let you generate sorcery points at a good solid clip. After that go to sor 9 so you don't slow down your 5th level spells too badly. It's best to play as a Celestial warlock or Divine Soul sorcerer: you won't have hit dice to recover with, so you'll need healing spells.

Word of warning: as you can tell from the posts above, coffeelock is an incredibly divisive, group-dependent build. Some DMs will be fine with it, while some will have rules that make it more difficult or disallow it entirely. Some groups will be happy to have you at the table, some will view what you're doing as broken and unfair and will get surly and resentful, and some will vary in opinion depending on how you're using the coffeelock.

If you care about potentially angering the other players and/or the DM, do not play a coffeelock without talking to everyone first. Even if the group is cool with it, their opinion of the coffeelock may change as you rise in level. You need to keep a close eye on whether or not your fellows are having fun, and change your tactics if what you're doing is stealing enjoyment from the rest of the table. The group that hates you for Fireballs and Chromatic Orbs may love you for Hastes and Guiding Bolts.

[Daithi]

Funny thing is, at no time did I ever judge or insult you.

You quoted my comment and then your very first sentence was "Or, don't try to be an absurdly game-breaking piece of s***". Whether you were judging or insulting me or the original poster is immaterial. You were flat out being judgmental and insulting.

[Ganymede]

Get up every hour and a bit and run for a few minutes.

How on earth do you inject a quick burst of adventuring after every hour of downtime? For one, that isn't even downtime. That's adventuring.

Secondly, this necessitates the DM even allowing you to micromanage your downtime down to the hour. The PHB explicitly gives the DM wide lattitude when it comes to OKing downtime activities, and a DM would be following RAW if he or she said no to this odd suggestion of yours.

[Davrix]

Honest question as I have a lv 3 Redemption paladin and 5 levels of Celestial warlock right now on a character. He already has the pact of the moon for RP reasons so how many levels of sorcery do i need to make this effective? Just 3 or should take more?

Also I'm not going to be an ass about this I'll probably tell my DM that I'll cap my points at a certain point he agree's upon.

P.S. its a kobold paladin :)

[Malifice]

How on earth do you inject a quick burst of adventuring after every hour of downtime? For one, that isn't even downtime. That's adventuring.

Secondly, this necessitates the DM even allowing you to micromanage your downtime down to the hour. The PHB explicitly gives the DM wide lattitude when it comes to OKing downtime activities, and a DM would be following RAW if he or she said no to this odd suggestion of yours.

'Hey DM; every hour and 1 minute, I pop outside for quick sprint around the block for 5 minutes'

Sprinting is activity more strenuous than quietly resting, reading a book or eating. Ergo, your rest is interrupted but seeing as it was at least one hour long, its a short rest.

Your warlock slots have refreshed, and you can now cycle them into sorcery points, and you convert your sorcery points into bonus sorcerer slots.

Rest for a another hour and a minute and then go for a sprint around the block for five minutes again.

Again fill up your sorcery pool. Again create more spell slots.

Repeat.

[Ganymede]

'Hey DM; every hour and 1 minute, I pop outside for quick sprint around the block for 5 minutes'

Sprinting is activity more strenuous than quietly resting, reading a book or eating. Ergo, your rest is interrupted but seeing as it was at least one hour long, its a short rest.

Your warlock slots have refreshed, and you can now cycle them into sorcery points, and you convert your sorcery points into bonus sorcerer slots.

Rest for a another hour and a minute and then go for a sprint around the block for five minutes again.

Again fill up your sorcery pool. Again create more spell slots.

Repeat.

"Naw, I'll note your downtime activity as "relaxation and exercise"."

I'm trying to get across where this idea of yours fails. This weird request of yours looks nothing like any of the listed downtime options, doesn't work like any of the listed downtime options, and a DM is able (and likely willing) to say no to this.

Do you think your bizzare meta-breakdown here is really going to sway a DM to be a willing participant in this endeavor?

[JNAProductions]

It works by RAW. You do need to be a high level Celestial Sorcerer to deal with the exhaustion, if your DM imposes that, but it works.

It's fine to argue about whether or not it should be allowed (my personal opinion is no), but without houserules, it works. That's not in contention-or at least, shouldn't be.

My personal fix? Sorcery point created slots vanish after a long rest or 24 hours have passed. That way, pure Sorcerers who like converting lower-level slots to more potent ones aren't punished, but the coffeelock is severely limited in terms of game-breaking potential. No unlimited 5th level slots.

I typically don't have enough houserules to announce them all at the forefront, but should I see someone building for coffeelock, I would let them know IMMEDIATELY that that's a rule I can and will use, should they break the game.

[Ganymede]

It works by RAW.

This is a misstatement.

By RAW, the Coffeelock needs to jump through multiple DM-discretionary stages before it works: downtime, rest management, and the handling of long-rest deprivation.

If any DM rulings cut against the Coffeelock at any of those stages then, by RAW, it doesn't work.

[Davrix]

This is a misstatement.

By RAW, the Coffeelock needs to jump through multiple DM-discretionary stages before it works: downtime, rest management, and the handling of long-rest deprivation.

If any DM rulings cut against the Coffeelock at any of those stages then, by RAW, it doesn't work.


as things are written as long as you take the moon invocation and the levels needed in sorc it just works. Long and short rests are chosen things you get to do. so as written it does.

Like all good things it depends on the player. someone who doesn't go out of his way to abuse this would make this fun especially if they make it a role play thing. Those that just want it for power need to get slapped with the DM stick hard.

[Ganymede]

as things are written as long as you take the moon invocation and the levels needed in sorc it just works.

That doesn't even rely on a janky application of DM discretion; that is just wrong.

"Aspect of the Moon lets you forgo sleep when you take a long rest. The invocation doesn't remove the need for long rests." - Jeremy Crawford

[Davrix]

That doesn't even rely on a janky application of DM discretion; that is just wrong.

"Aspect of the Moon lets you forgo sleep when you take a long rest. The invocation doesn't remove the need for long rests." - Jeremy Crawford

ok so? the only reason you deal with long rests is to gain hit dice back and to heal to full HP along with spell slots. If you don't need to do that you can take short rests for the same effect and benefits of the coffee lock.

[Ganymede]

A third reason why a person takes long rests is so they don't die.

Xanathar's details an optional rule for handling a lack of short rests, and its ultimate consequence is PC death.

[sightlessrealit]

A third reason why a person takes long rests is so they don't die.

Xanathar's details an optional rule for handling a lack of short rests, and its ultimate consequence is PC death.

But that's the thing, by RAW it isn't a thing. After all it is only optional.

[JoeJ]

But that's the thing, by RAW it isn't a thing. After all it is only optional.

If your definition of RAW excludes optional rules, then by RAW coffeelock is not possible at all because it requires multiclassing.

[sightlessrealit]

If your definition of RAW excludes optional rules, then by RAW coffeelock is not possible at all because it requires multiclassing.

That's fair but even than, you would still be able to have a warlock that wouldn't need to take long rests.

Or you could have a level 20 Divine Soul Sorcerer that wouldn't really need long rests either.

[Ganymede]

But that's the thing, by RAW it isn't a thing. After all it is only optional.

That was my point.

Rest deprivation, much like alcohol intoxication, scurvy, and any number of other situations, is not covered by the core rules. That means, outside of Xanathar's, it is in the realm of DM adjudication.

You very well might have a DM that adjudicates there is no penalty for going without long rests, but that is a hell of a big if. That's where Coffeelocks exist, in that nebulous realm of DM adjudication.

[sightlessrealit]

That was my point.

Rest deprivation, much like alcohol intoxication, scurvy, and any number of other situations, is not covered by the core rules. That means, outside of Xanathar's, it is in the realm of DM adjudication.

You very well might have a DM that adjudicates there is no penalty for going without long rests, but that is a hell of a big if. That's where Coffeelocks exist, in that nebulous realm of DM adjudication.

*Looks at comment, than self, than comment, than self* Well your big if isn't so big cause I have no such homebrew rule for sleep deprivation.

[Ganymede]

*Looks at comment, than self, than comment, than self* Well your big if isn't so big cause I have no such homebrew rule for sleep deprivation.

"Homebrew" is not the correct word here. Homebrew, or house rules, are changes to the core rules of the game made by individual DMs. This is instead an adjudication of a situation not covered by the core rules. It is much like determining what happens if a PC drinks five pints of ale in quick succession; there is no rule on point, so DMs must find a way to adjudicate it.

In either case, you likely haven't come up with how to handle rest deprivation because it has never come up in your own games. I mean, come on, how often do PCs actually go a day without taking a long rest?

[sightlessrealit]

"Homebrew" is not the correct word here. Homebrew, or house rules, are changes to the core rules of the game made by individual DMs. This is instead an adjudication of a situation not covered by the core rules. It is much like determining what happens if a PC drinks five pints of ale in quick succession; there is no rule on point, so DMs must find a way to adjudicate it.

In either case, you likely haven't come up with how to handle rest deprivation because it has never come up in your own games. I mean, come on, how often do PCs actually go a day without taking a long rest?

Well I'm happy to say it has. While not often they have gone days several times without long rests. The longest time without one was 10 days.

[Ganymede]

That's weird.