coffeelock question.

[Amdy_vill]

so i am going to play a game as a coffeelock soon. i posted about his and asked for help with the build. now i know this build is powerful but i was wounding if we could think of a way to make i more balance as i am a DM a lot as well. i am a person who like adding on and not changing raw. So i was thinking of home brewing items or rules that let this build work but take some power away. so any ideas of items that could use sorcerer points.

[Naanomi]

How would an item that uses sorcery points not be stronger when you have unlimited sorcery points?

[Amdy_vill]

How would an item that uses sorcery points not be stronger when you have unlimited sorcery points?

the point would be to incentives the use of sorcerer points for other uses beside spells. but i see you point so something like a sorcery point cap would be a good rule as well. in general i would ask for ideas that would keep this power low.

[Matrix_Walker]

You are not going to limit power by adding options unless they are trap options that your players are better off ignoring.

Added options are always a gain.

[Willie the Duck]

so i am going to play a game as a coffeelock soon. i posted about his and asked for help with the build. now i know this build is powerful but i was wounding if we could think of a way to make i more balance as i am a DM a lot as well. i am a person who like adding on and not changing raw. So i was thinking of home brewing items or rules that let this build work but take some power away. so any ideas of items that could use sorcerer points.

This entire statement seems to me to speak of unclear goals. You want balance, but are intent on playing a coffeelock? Now, since the original UA with the coffeelock invocation first came out, a bunch of analysis has been done on the coffeelock and it's been sorta-vaguely-roughly determined that it isn't the runaway OP it first looked like. But... balanced? That's one thing it isn't. Even if not insanely overpowered, it definitely is a huge spanner in the works. Adding in additional uses for the unlimited sorc points? That's not moving it back towards balanced.

[Amdy_vill]

This entire statement seems to me to speak of unclear goals. You want balance, but are intent on playing a coffeelock? Now, since the original UA with the coffeelock invocation first came out, a bunch of analysis has been done on the coffeelock and it's been sorta-vaguely-roughly determined that it isn't the runaway OP it first looked like. But... balanced? That's one thing it isn't. Even if not insanely overpowered, it definitely is a huge spanner in the works. Adding in additional uses for the unlimited sorc points? That's not moving it back towards balanced.

i think this is a good point as well as the last one. So well i am play a coffee lock soon i am also a DM. i ma sure my DM will build limits he finds exemptible or just not give use down time. the point of this was to look into building things to balance this more for when i run games so i have things in my back pocket a long side what my DM gives me in the next game. also the last guy is right we should focuses on limiting the power and not items as trap items will be avoided. so what rule additions do we think would help.

[Ventruenox]

I would suggest resetting the Sorcery Points at the beginning of each play session; no carryover from the last one. Your "unlimited" SP will depend on the number of long rests the rest of the party takes during that session only.

[Ganymede]

You are within your right as a DM to ignore the suggested optional rule in Xanathar's for going without long rests and implement a harsher penalty instead.

It adds on without changing RAW, so it meets your criteria.

[Amdy_vill]

I would suggest resetting the Sorcery Points at the beginning of each play session; no carryover from the last one. Your "unlimited" SP will depend on the number of long rests the rest of the party takes during that session only.

i think this is a good idea. my only change would be that this does not happen in circumstances that it would heavily effect the party like if a fight ran over into two game but after the fight i would have this kick in. any other rules

[Amdy_vill]

You are within your right as a DM to ignore the suggested optional rule in Xanathar's for going without long rests and implement a harsher penalty instead.

It adds on without changing RAW, so it meets your criteria.

there is the Aspect of the Moon boon as well but i see what you mean and if a coffee lock did not take this boon it would be a rule i could implement very well.

[Vogie]

Coffeelocks are already gated by Exhaustion outside of the first day... JC stated that even with Aspect of the Moon allowing one to avoid sleeping, that people still need Long rests to forgo exhaustion.

Thus, it's only really broken on Divine Soul Coffeelocks where the Sorcerer is level 9 & has access to Greater Restoration to remove the exhaustion up to 2x a day (one with the spell slot, one with the sorcery points).

You could speed up the amounts of exhaustion accumulated beyond just 1/day.

Maybe having that blend take them to the brink... introduce a Sanity mechanic?

[Malifice]

Explain to your players the following is in effect:

'Any attempt to game or metagame the rest mechanic will be met with a warning at first and a firm 'no,' and then players get booted from the game if it continues.'

If you even have to post this warning in the first place then you probably have bigger problems but anyway.

[Ganymede]

there is the Aspect of the Moon boon as well but i see what you mean and if a coffee lock did not take this boon it would be a rule i could implement very well.

As Vogie said, Aspect of the Moon does not obviate the need to take a short rest every day. Elves haven't needed sleep since 5e was released, but they still need a long rest every day.

[Naanomi]

As a note, Undying Patron Warlocks already didn’t need to sleep

[Amdy_vill]

Explain to your players the following is in effect:

'Any attempt to game or metagame the rest mechanic will be met with a warning at first and a firm 'no,' and then players get booted from the game if it continues.'

If you even have to post this warning in the first place then you probably have bigger problems but anyway.

the point is to let this build stay but to limit its power but this is still a good suggestion as i could explain to my player that well this is something that can to extreme use will lead to consequences.

[Willie the Duck]

the point is to let this build stay but to limit its power but this is still a good suggestion as i could explain to my player that well this is something that can to extreme use will lead to consequences.

I am genuinely curious, what is the purpose of playing a coffeelock, other than to 1) make some point about RAW and or the capacity of the game designers to foresee how the rules interact, or 2) watch the world burn? Honestly, what role-play role or mechanical itch does it scratch?

[Ventruenox]

Honestly, what role-play role or mechanical itch does it scratch?

http://www.internationalhero.co.uk/t/toomuchcoffeeman.jpg

[Vogie]

I am genuinely curious, what is the purpose of playing a coffeelock, other than to 1) make some point about RAW and or the capacity of the game designers to foresee how the rules interact, or 2) watch the world burn? Honestly, what role-play role or mechanical itch does it scratch?

Originally, it was #1.

But with the proper application of downsides such as exhaustion, it can give the player waves of incredible power until they literally drop dead. It's kinda like a Bravely Default type of mechanic, where you're living on borrowed time, stealing the ability to act in the future for acting now. It can be cinematic if done properly: See also the Post-Victory Collapse (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PostVictoryCollapse)

The closest analog in RAW is the Berzerker Barbarian, who could literally continue attacking, not take any damage, and literally kill himself within 6 rounds fights by piling on exhaustion

[Amdy_vill]

I am genuinely curious, what is the purpose of playing a coffeelock, other than to 1) make some point about RAW and or the capacity of the game designers to foresee how the rules interact, or 2) watch the world burn? Honestly, what role-play role or mechanical itch does it scratch?

i think a coffee lock would be a great spelljammer character or if you have a large party and have to be the support/combat caster. in the game that i will be playing a coffeelock i am taking the roll of heal, blast, and support as the rest of the players are not magic classes.

[Sopor Tyranus]

Um, pardon my ignorance, what in the Nine Hell's is a "Coffeelock"?:smallconfused:

[Naanomi]

Um, pardon my ignorance, what in the Nine Hell's is a "Coffeelock"?:smallconfused:
A character that avoids taking long rests, and uses short rests to refill Warlock spell slots that you then cash in for Sorcery Points... with enough time a virtually unlimited supply of them.

Depending on your readings of the rules this either works by avoiding sleeping (with an invocation, Undying Patron, or UA race) or by that plus Greater Restoration to remove lack of rest penalties (usually from Divine Soul sorcerer)

[Ventruenox]

Detailed here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?409694-The-Coffee-Drow-A-Sleepless-Sorclock) Debated to death and back. Also, much to the chagrin of board regulars, is a cornerstone of "The Nameless King" troll spam threads.

[Malifice]

the point is to let this build stay but to limit its power but this is still a good suggestion as i could explain to my player that well this is something that can to extreme use will lead to consequences.

My point is, if your players are having their characters 'cycle' rests, you have bigger problems. Mainly with relation to your understanding (as DM) of the adventuring day, and the mechanical underpinnings of 5E, your control over the players, and the flimsy social contract (and DM vs player) antagonism that seems to be going on.

If you must implement a mechanical 'fix' and not just rely on your omnipotent ability as DM to simply say 'nope'', then I suggest the following rules;

Short rests: Are now 5 minutes long (a quick breather, map check, bind wounds, swig of water etc) but no character can benefit from more than 2 per long rest.

And then implement the following rule (taken from Xanathars):

Fatigue: Whenever you end a 24-hour period without finishing a long rest, you must succeed on a DC 10 Constitution saving throw or suffer one level of exhaustion. After the first 24 hours, the DC increases by 5 for each consecutive 24-hour period without a long rest. The DC resets to 10 when you finish a long rest.

With the following line attached:

A level of exhaustion gained by fatigue can only be removed by a long rest (one level per long rest).

That should sort out all your problems. Any remaining problems can simply be dealt with as DM on a case by case basis.

Like; as DM, don't be afraid to say 'No' to players trying to game the rest mechanic (or any other mechanic). Once your skills as a DM improve, you wont have to say 'No' that often (if at all). Your relationship with your players will improve, they'll trust you to provide them with interesting and challenging encounters and adventures, and they can be trusted not to seek to break or meta-game the game, and you can all concentrate on simply playing the game and having fun without them constantly looking for ways to derail, exploit, find loopholes or break the rules.

[Willie the Duck]

i think a coffee lock would be a great spelljammer character or if you have a large party and have to be the support/combat caster. in the game that i will be playing a coffeelock i am taking the roll of heal, blast, and support as the rest of the players are not magic classes.

Spelljammer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spelljammer)or spellspammer? Regardless, coffeelock is the ultimate expression of the concept of a nova-character. However, coffee-less sorlocks exist, and have the advantage of not requiring such amazing fine-tuned social contract between DM and players.


But with the proper application of downsides such as exhaustion, it can give the player waves of incredible power until they literally drop dead. It's kinda like a Bravely Default type of mechanic, where you're living on borrowed time, stealing the ability to act in the future for acting now. It can be cinematic if done properly: See also the Post-Victory Collapse (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PostVictoryCollapse)

Okay, so there is a reason to play it other than 'because it's there' or 'because I think I can get away with it' reasons. Still, it's one of those things that *I* would only do if a gonzo situation where if everything ended in tears and recrimination, that's not the worst thing ever. I liken it to a 3.5 campaign where you say, 'yep, I'm playing CoDzilla, but don't worry, I won't be abusing it.' It's obviously doable, but is it worth it?




Um, pardon my ignorance, what in the Nine Hell's is a "Coffeelock"?:smallconfused:

Depending on your perspective: a glitch, and exploit, or an interesting rules convergence. The specifics really aren't important so much as your opinion on whether exploring that realm is good, bad, or otherwise (my own feeling is that the best descriptor would be 'risky,' as in the potential for hurt feelings or accusations of cheese/powergaming/being-a-rules-exploiter is high). Note that a lot of people you meet still hold what was initially thought that it was Wish+Simulacrum-level broken, while the later consensus is that it is closer to one-handed-quarterstaff+shield-level amusing-and-niche more than anything else.

[Sopor Tyranus]

Ah, I see. Thanks for the replies!

[Daithi]

By RAW and Sage advice rulings, all characters, even elves, experience levels of exhaustion without a long rest (sleep/trance and long rest are not the same thing). This means you need a spell to get rid of those levels of exhaustion. Greater Restoration will do it, but it's a 5th level spell. This means you need a minimum of 9 levels of Sorcerer (Divine Soul) for that 5th level spell, and a minimum of 1 warlock level before you can even become a coffeelock, and you're only turning level 1 warlock spell slots into sorcery points. You'll need to become a 5th level warlock before you work up to converting 3rd level spells to sorcery points. This means you will need to be a 14th level character before you actually start becoming a really powerful coffeelock, and this comes at the expense of not being able to cast any spells over 5th level.

The bottom line is that a coffeelock doesn't actually kick in until later levels when the other spell casters have access to powerful spells you can't cast. Is it worth it anyway? I think so, but the coffeelock that still has to deal with exhaustion doesn't really need special homebrewed rules to nerf it.

[fallensavior]

Powerful, but not broken:

Convince your DM to let you use the spell points variant on a sorcerer.
Be a Tiefling, dip Warlock.
Cast meta'd Fireballs all day.
Burn your warlock spell slots to refill your sorcery points every short rest.
Burn your racial spell slots in addition to top off your sorcery points as needed.