Which class makes the absolute best Undead Destroyer?

[killem2]

I'm looking at doing Carrion Crown in a few months and I'm really looking to find the best class that handles dealing with Undead since is one of the points the player's guide makes clear that Undead are highly prevalent.

[Eldariel]

I'm looking at doing Carrion Crown in a few months and I'm really looking to find the best class that handles dealing with Undead since is one of the points the player's guide makes clear that Undead are highly prevalent.

Between Command Undead, Disintegrate and Polymorph Any Object, Wizards are pretty excellent on that front. Particularly higher up: Undead have no Con-score and poor Fort progression so their Fortitude saves leave a lot to be desired. They get by with their immunity but as per usual, Wizards have ways around that. Doubly so since most of their best debuffs work on Undead just fine as well. And yeah, Command Undead is a no-save day/level mind control on mindless undead and a save-or-lose on minded ones; it's just insane and can allow you to keep your own retinue of undead to bolster your ranks if you encounter a number.

[killem2]

Between Command Undead, Disintegrate and Polymorph Any Object, Wizards are pretty excellent on that front. Particularly higher up: Undead have no Con-score and poor Fort progression so their Fortitude saves leave a lot to be desired. They get by with their immunity but as per usual, Wizards have ways around that. Doubly so since most of their best debuffs work on Undead just fine as well. And yeah, Command Undead is a no-save day/level mind control on mindless undead and a save-or-lose on minded ones; it's just insane and can allow you to keep your own retinue of undead to bolster your ranks if you encounter a number.

hmm that would be interesting especially if I still want to craft items. Any archetypes I should watch out for or just straight wizard?

[zlefin]

I would recommend not aiming too much to defeat undead.
While I'm less familiar with PF (and i'm pretty sure it's anti-undead options aren't as brutal as 3.5); there's generally a lot of power you can get if you highly specialize; especially against undead which has several things specifically meant to counter it. the typical power level on such adventures is rather low; and if you bring a dedicated counterbuild you're likely to steamroll the encounters (and maybe make the rest of the party look weak).

[Psyren]

Haven't played through it myself but you can't really go wrong with the classic of a Cleric, particularly with a domain like Sun or Healing. But there are a ton of classes that can be good against undead, from Ranger, Inquisitor, Oracle, Warpriest, and even specific anti-undead archetypes of other classes like Gravewalker Witch and Dirgesinger Bard.

[killem2]

Thanks, I've been learning that Paladins of course are out of the box nice options the Life Oracle is apparently great as well.

[Eldariel]

hmm that would be interesting especially if I still want to craft items. Any archetypes I should watch out for or just straight wizard?

Well, no archetypes necessary but anything that grants you more spells per day or improves your necromancy is of course good (Undead Master (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/archetypes/paizo-wizard-archetypes/undead-master-wizard-archetype/) is pretty solid unsurprisingly, but Evil-only; gains you an extra pool for Command/Rebuke). In general though, the good generalist archetypes (Exploiter, Pact Wizard [Haunted Heroes], Sin Caster, etc.) are fine as is basic Wizards (with the usual "Divination has the best specialisation options while Conjuration has the most broadly useful spells and the second best specialisation option"-note attached).

But yeah, Wizards are amazing against undead, starting from trolling mindless things with Silent Image on level 1 to Commanding legions of your enemies to just Disintegrating or PAOing them to dust at the end.

[Geddy2112]

As said above, a lot of classes fit the bill. A blossoming light cleric with the sun and glory domains is going to nuke undead hordes with channel. Clerics in general have a fair amount of spells to deal with undead, as do wizards. Since all undead are evil, spells that specifically target evil in some way(protection from evil, holy smite, etc) are fantastic choices, as is any caster capable of using them.

I will say that gravewalker witch is probably the most powerful out of the gate since you get at will command undead at level 1.

Undead bloodline sorcerer is a fun option, as it allows you to treat corporeal undead that were once humanoids as humanoids for mind affecting spells and anything else that works on humanoids but not undead. Dirge bards can also use mind affecting spells to affect all undead as if they were living, but not spells that specifically affect humanoids.

Paladin and ranger are good against undead if you want a more martial approach.

[Cantroy]

I'm just going to leave this here, and admit I would take my hat off and thank this guy...

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hA61fDAxblBxbRXe236ZUmobf38hkB9d_foo3dEi7N4/pub

[Florian]

Ah, Carrion Crown, lovely AP.

Ok, let's be straight, no discussions: N H-Elf Cleric of Pharasma with SF: Diplomacy, Extra Channel and Persuasive (at 3rd), using a Heavy Mace and shield, moderate to high CHA score. Remove Fear, Protection from Evil are standard spell load-out for the first book of the AP, dealing with enchantments, curses and disease will come later.

I won´t spoiler why Pharasma and the weapon, you'll find out, but the greater trouble is swiftly dealing with Haunts, which is best done by channel-bombing them, then solving their "riddle".

It´s also pretty much important to keep a relaxed stance on undead and monsters in this AP. Talk first, smite later..... Yes, that can be done with Pharasma as patron, too.

@Necromancers:

Won´t fly here, same reason as a dedicated enchanter. Things you want to brute force, you can´t, things that you don't want to, there's no need to.

[Rynjin]

For undead only, it's a toss up.

For the AP, I suggest Inquisitor.

Versatile, high damage, good skills and all around cool class that excels in pretty much any arena.

I'll tell you this: you overspecialize against undead in Carrion Crown and you will regret it. While undead feature significantly in all books, all of the books also have other themed monsters that dominate the pages of any given book.

[Eldariel]

For undead only, it's a toss up.

For the AP, I suggest Inquisitor.

Versatile, high damage, good skills and all around cool class that excels in pretty much any arena.

I'll tell you this: you overspecialize against undead in Carrion Crown and you will regret it. While undead feature significantly in all books, all of the books also have other themed monsters that dominate the pages of any given book.

Which is precisely why Wizards are so awesome in the AP. Best skills, great against undead with no specialisation other than picking spells known and great everything else, with all-rounders that work against more or less anything. Haunts aren't that automatic since Wizard options are less auto-AOE than Channel Energy but they aren't that bad either. And weapons and such are for chumps :smallamused:

[SirNibbles]

If you can use 3.5 content, Morniglord of Lathander and Radiant Servant of Pelor are good options.

[Rynjin]

Which is precisely why Wizards are so awesome in the AP. Best skills, great against undead with no specialisation other than picking spells known and great everything else, with all-rounders that work against more or less anything. Haunts aren't that automatic since Wizard options are less auto-AOE than Channel Energy but they aren't that bad either. And weapons and such are for chumps :smallamused:

Wizards are boring though.

[Eldariel]

Wizards are boring though.

Only if you make them so; something like an inquisitor is much "simpler" and in that sense less engaging, and also has fewer niches to fill and thus less room for player-generated fluff and approaches than an extremely broad class that can be specialised any which way such as a Wizard. To that end it should be easier to make an interesting Wizard than an interesting Inquisitor though I don't think either should be very difficult if you put any effort into it.

Honestly, the only classes I could truly see described as "boring" are martial classes that can do nothing but wave a stick (so Fighter and derivatives) - every class with spellcasting can go any which way and be built in so many ways as to easily make life rather interesting for a mechanical player and there's literally nothing in any class that restricts a fluff-heavy player any which way (martial or otherwise).

If the guy in the robe waving hands and babbling arcanely to bone reality squarely in the backside bores you, you might for instance put a decent score into Str and Cha and fluff your abilities as flexing your muscles to cow reality into submission with your unparalleled cow abs (play a minotaur while at it). bonus points for fluffing all your spells around cows just to stretch the pun (Summon Cow, Milk Spray, Cow Image, Dirt Dust, Cowmand Undead, etc.). Or in a more mundane sense, make your Wizard a Batman-style superhero or perhaps a Sherlock Holmes-style detective or whatever; all of that is easily doable within the framework of the mechanical abilities of the class. Even mechanically, every Wizard from a controller to a Real Oracle™ to a Dragonshaper to a Summoner to a Scoundrel is doable within the system so let your mind wander if you don't feel like going cookie cutter.

[ericgrau]

Between Command Undead, Disintegrate and Polymorph Any Object, Wizards are pretty excellent on that front. Particularly higher up: Undead have no Con-score and poor Fort progression so their Fortitude saves leave a lot to be desired. They get by with their immunity but as per usual, Wizards have ways around that. Doubly so since most of their best debuffs work on Undead just fine as well. And yeah, Command Undead is a no-save day/level mind control on mindless undead and a save-or-lose on minded ones; it's just insane and can allow you to keep your own retinue of undead to bolster your ranks if you encounter a number.
Also halt undead (multi target unlike command undead) and wall of fire (double damage AoE) for hordes of undead.

Once you get your horde look for ways to equip them with bows, whatever arrows you need for DR, and other allowable mundane or cheap magical gear. Also hand out mass/communal hour/level or 10 min/level buffs if you can find anything useful. I wouldn't go beyond that because they're mostly fodder, unless you manage to steal a really nice undead.

I agree not to overspecialize and merely make these part of your various spells. I don't think you'll overshadow others too much if you go wizard and someone else goes cleric, because anti-undead tactics are kind of obvious. Even other classes may pull some minor tricks. And as said many enemies are not undead.

[Florian]

.... and again, theory crafting by people who don't know that particular AP.

[Rynjin]

.... and again, theory crafting by people who don't know that particular AP.

...I've run Carrion Crown twice now


Only if you make them so; something like an inquisitor is much "simpler" and in that sense less engaging, and also has fewer niches to fill and thus less room for player-generated fluff and approaches than an extremely broad class that can be specialised any which way such as a Wizard. To that end it should be easier to make an interesting Wizard than an interesting Inquisitor though I don't think either should be very difficult if you put any effort into it.

Inquisitors are actually more complex; they have more resource pools to keep track of and myriad abilities and viable Archetypes to choose from, while being arguably the most balanced class that Paizo has ever created. Wizards have always been very simple at a base level, they're just very flexible in what their one thing to keep track of can do.

Wizards I find boring for mechanical reasons. I dislike prepared casting, save the Arcanist's style (one of the few good things 5e did was make all prepared casters function that way) and am not a huge fan of the meta-mini-game of "prepare for all the eventualities" despite the increased inherent power available from it.

Paizo has a solid number of really fun Tier 3 classes, all of whom are more interesting to play than a Wizard IMO. That's more my opinion than anything though.

Inquisitors are just a good thematic fit for the AP in their default fluff, and can be reflavored into basically anything. They get a really nice bag of tricks in their spell list and large number of skills (skills are actually quite important in CC and can't be entirely replaced by spells, particularly monster Knowledges), and are just fun to play.

[Psyren]

For once I agree with Rynjin - Inquisitor (with Preacher or Spellbreaker) is probably my favorite class overall in the entire game. Melee, range, face, traps, they can pretty much do it all.

[ericgrau]

Wizards I find boring for mechanical reasons. I dislike prepared casting, save the Arcanist's style (one of the few good things 5e did was make all prepared casters function that way) and am not a huge fan of the meta-mini-game of "prepare for all the eventualities" despite the increased inherent power available from it.

Paizo has a solid number of really fun Tier 3 classes, all of whom are more interesting to play than a Wizard IMO. That's more my opinion than anything though.
Same spells on sorcerer then. I find sorcs more fun than wizards myself anyway. Either way you'd get general purpose spells first and anti-undead 2nd, so that you are ready for other fights.

Likewise you could do oracle over cleric if you go that route.