Lets talk about the Scythe in combat...

[Tetrasodium]

Mike Mearls recently got asked about the scythebefore his answer here (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2018/05/10/why-is-there-no-scythe-in-dd-yet/) got shared around on twitter. He's completely correct that the scythe is a ridiculously awkward & poor choice of weapon for a human who would be better off breaking the grip & using it like a club against another human... but d&d has lots of different species with different forms with different racial conflicts.


Take this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythe#/media/File:Scythe_user.png) image from wikipedia. That human, even if regularly up against goblins would probably be better off with a normal weapon due to the reality where most things are about his size or not much smaller... now if that picture were of a 16-26 foot tall giant (sizes on mm153) in a world where most things it might fight are between 3.something to about 6 feet tall, things are not so clear cut. The larger the giant, the more reasonable, effective, & dangerous a scythe type weapon is going to be against foes roughly standing somewhere between ankle & shin level. Not only that, the design allows a giant to use their mass & strength of both arms against a foe


Since those foes will not be as rooted in place as a farmer's stalk of wheat, a slashing scythe is probably going to be about as effective as a bludgeoning one, but that is easily fixed. If the blade of that giant's war-scythe is shaped more like a pruning saw (https://www.amazon.com/Trimming-Branches-Clearing-Pull-Action-Professional/dp/B01C5OCDVW) with ~6-8 inch long spikes pointing to grab an opponent struck by the swing (inward like shark teeth)instead of sharpened blades, that swing gets really dangerous for any small-medium sized creatures unlucky to be standing with their hips, torsom ir head in the arc of some angry giant's war-scythe. Yes 6-8 inch spikes along a reinforced structure would have the problem of foes sticking to it, but simple inertia of the two handed weapon suddenly being swung back the other way would have the benefit of flinging them off elsewhere.

Giants are all equipped like humans, or bizarrely like the fire giant dreadnought (http://www.miniscollector.com/icons-realms/monster-menagerie-iii/fire-giant-dreadnought) ready to protectively cradle humans between the lower edges of his shield or maybe drop his shield on you before bending down to put his head on level with your weapons, but nothing that designed by giants to slaughter humans in a battle. What other effective weapons can you see giants using against humans/elves/dwarves/etc?

[Foxhound438]

I would probably go for giant golf club before giant scythe, but maybe the HP stats in the world of DND would make that less than great anyways.

[Kane0]

Heh. “I really must get some gardening done. The hedge looks atrocious and there are adventurers sprouting everywhere!”

[Belier]

Well to me a scythe could be a refluffed battle axe or great axe depending of the size of the weapon.

The idea is to use it like an axe rather that a scythe and more so called it a fluffed axe a bit like an axe could be somehow shaped like a scythe.

As for realism and calling that you could be better with a club, d&d is not about realisn.

I could refer you also to guildwars game where the 2 handed scythe had the highest critical strike damage with a 41 as it s die.

So if a player write on his sheet that he is using a scythe, I'd say 1d4 improvised weapon but if he write refluffed battleaxe/greataxe that looks like a scythe design I don't mind it, he will need to swing it like an axe.

[GlenSmash!]

Take the 5e weapon Glaive.
Cross out Glaive.
Write Scythe where Glaive used to be.

[Lombra]

Giants need to fight themselves too, so that's why they have weapons proportionally designed like humans'.

Watch a video on the topic by Shadiversity. Although given the specificity of the post, you probably come from that video.

[Tetrasodium]

Giants need to fight themselves too, so that's why they have weapons proportionally designed like humans'.

Watch a video on the topic by Shadiversity. Although given the specificity of the post, you probably come from that video.

LOL, yea that was what I thought of when I saw mearl's tweet shared in my feed. I agree that the video makes really good points. Scythe is a stupid weapon for like sized opponents yea but giants vrs humanoids not nearly so much.

[DracoKnight]

Take the 5e weapon Glaive.
Cross out Glaive.
Write Scythe where Glaive used to be.


Pretty much this.

[LudicSavant]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iix5MdZiNQg

[Blackhawk748]

Or perhaps the Scythe is actually a Warscythe:

http://kultofathena.com/images/AH3518_l.jpg

Also Zasalamel would like a word with you. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLg88PmoNe0)

[DarkKnightJin]

Take the 5e weapon Glaive.
Cross out Glaive.
Write Scythe where Glaive used to be.


I did that, but with the Halberd.
I know, it's a totally different weapon, but I felt it'd be more fitting.

[Mad_Saulot]

Once you bring science and realism and talk about things like "inertia" then that destroys the Fantasy.

I recon scythes are cliche weapons and somewhat lame but I wouldnt deny their place as a valid Fantasy weapon.

In my games anyone who talks about science, gets a frown.

[GlenSmash!]

I did that, but with the Halberd.
I know, it's a totally different weapon, but I felt it'd be more fitting.

Very well done sir!

[Knaight]

Historically speaking the use of scythes as weapons was generally accompanied by rotating the blade 90 degrees, so that it stuck out. At that point it's basically an improvised glaive, and should probably be treated as one.

[Tetrasodium]

Once you bring science and realism and talk about things like "inertia" then that destroys the Fantasy.

I recon scythes are cliche weapons and somewhat lame but I wouldnt deny their place as a valid Fantasy weapon.

In my games anyone who talks about science, gets a frown.
You misunderstand. That nit of science & realism dismisses the "but then you've got humans stuck on your spikes scythe" bit of science & realism.

Having a giant with a scythe made to slaughter humanoids is cool for the fantasy game because:
A: it should be very effective and make the usual gang up & cluster on the giant tactic a good way for all of them to get minced
B: some people think the scythe is a "cool" weapon, but others think it is silly. If mechanical it gets put in as something that is very cool when there is significant size difference it reduces the likelihood of more scythe wielding otherwise cool undead/demon/etc minis

[Armored Walrus]

Seems like a lot of comments from people who either didn't read the OP or missed the point of it entirely.

I like the idea of a giant war scythe for the purposes of sweeping away multiple human-sized opponents efficiently, without having to bend down to hit them.

I second the idea of a golf-club like weapon for single targets.

I propose a hoe-like implement for same. It could be used to shove targets away, maybe over a cliff, or to slash down at them. It would use less of the giant's strength, but would allow more accurate striking. (at least in my experience, but then again, a giant isn't likely to care much if he hooks the adventurer over into the next fairway)

Of course, a spear is another implement we use for things that are below knee level - look at folks picking up garbage on the side of the road, or boar hunting, or spear fishing. A giant, barbed trident would make it easier to stick those quick little humans, and catch them on the tines when it pierces their thin outer shells.

[Eric Diaz]

Military scythe is a pole weapon. Another reason why BOTH the halberd and glaive should be called a single weapon called "pole weapon" or "polearm".

But nooooo, we need to illustrate that our weapon table is badly designed ON PURPOSE. Because if you care about weapons you should suffer. Who needs 50 DIFFERENT weapons anyway? Here, take a mace, a greatclub, and a trident if you want variety, and DEAL WITH IT! Why don't you take more spells instead?

But yeah I digress.

[Malifice]

Pick a weapon like a polearm or a greataxe.

Fluff it as a scythe.

I really don't care. You could fluff a weapon you carry as a bloop-ddop-diddly-oop for all I care.

[sophontteks]

Military scythe is a pole weapon. Another reason why BOTH the halberd and glaive should be called a single weapon called "pole weapon" or "polearm".

But nooooo, we need to illustrate that our weapon table is badly designed ON PURPOSE. Because if you care about weapons you should suffer. Who needs 50 DIFFERENT weapons anyway? Here, take a mace, a greatclub, and a trident if you want variety, and DEAL WITH IT! Why don't you take more spells instead?

But yeah I digress.
^^^^^^^^

Amen man. Go all the way or go home!
Weapons and Armor section holds 5e back from god status.

Also, scythe is better then most polearms because you can harvest grain with it. And with that grain you make beer. And when you drink, you need to kill stuff. Very important for me that my weapons go full circle.

[Malifice]

Military scythe is a pole weapon. Another reason why BOTH the halberd and glaive should be called a single weapon called "pole weapon" or "polearm".

But nooooo, we need to illustrate that our weapon table is badly designed ON PURPOSE. Because if you care about weapons you should suffer. Who needs 50 DIFFERENT weapons anyway? Here, take a mace, a greatclub, and a trident if you want variety, and DEAL WITH IT! Why don't you take more spells instead?

But yeah I digress.

I don't really want stats for a Jian, Falcata, Katana, Broadsword, Nine ringed Longsword, Sabre, Epee, Cutlass etc. They're 4 foot sharpened metal sword things.

Just fluff your weapon as whatever you want it to be.

[War_lord]

Fun fact: A lot of the "type names" we have for different types of sword and polearm date back no earlier then the Victorians. In medieval times a sword was a sword and they didn't split it into 50 sub types.

[oxybe]

I don't really want stats for a Jian, Falcata, Katana, Broadsword, Nine ringed Longsword, Sabre, Epee, Cutlass etc. They're 4 foot sharpened metal sword things.

Just fluff your weapon as whatever you want it to be.

Didn't you know 5th ed is the appeal to nostalgia? And what else is more nostalgic then the stupid number of polearm on your weapon table (https://panzerleader.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/1e-weaponstable.jpg)?

What we have now is the uneasy arrangement between a good weapons system and Glaive/Glaive-Guisarme/Guisarme/Guisarme-Voulge

[Tetrasodium]

Seems like a lot of comments from people who either didn't read the OP or missed the point of it entirely.

I like the idea of a giant war scythe for the purposes of sweeping away multiple human-sized opponents efficiently, without having to bend down to hit them.

I second the idea of a golf-club like weapon for single targets.

I propose a hoe-like implement for same. It could be used to shove targets away, maybe over a cliff, or to slash down at them. It would use less of the giant's strength, but would allow more accurate striking. (at least in my experience, but then again, a giant isn't likely to care much if he hooks the adventurer over into the next fairway)

Of course, a spear is another implement we use for things that are below knee level - look at folks picking up garbage on the side of the road, or boar hunting, or spear fishing. A giant, barbed trident would make it easier to stick those quick little humans, and catch them on the tines when it pierces their thin outer shells.

Agreed on all points, and I think it is also worth noting that giants already have a bunch of their own weapons with their own effects & mechanics between volos & the mm....

A spear would work well yes, but those were for pushing with one or both arms in a forward direction. A pitchfork, trident, or similar made for spearing trash/fish/etc would likely work even better with the extra pointy bits giving extra chances to stab and/or fling away a target smart enough to move

Plenty of giants already use clubs & club-like weapons though. A golf club like weapon with an adamantine shaft or something would probably me easier to keep swinging yea, but as others noted giants do need to fight giant sized things occasionally & a club is better there while a battle long enough for the difference between golf club type & just club type clubs is probably not enough to matter in anything but overly long battles where other things like simple b;ppd loss & hp loss are a concern.

[Dr. Cliché]

Regarding scythes as weapons for human characters, no, you'd never use an actual scythe. The handle would make it very awkward to use and the blade is far too thin to be effective.

However, what I can see is someone making a weapon that resembles a scythe just for the visual appeal. I mean, it's pretty similar to a Glaive, just with the blade angled perpendicular to the shaft. It'll be a bit harder to use (since any misalignment of the blade when striking will cause it to glance off), but would be a vicious weapon if you could strike accurately with it. And, as above, it can make for a really great/threatening look for a character. Could be fun for a villain, but would also work on a more misanthropic character (and/or one with a rather odd personality).

I might even try this sometime.


Anyway, regarding giants, I actually don't think they'd use a scythe. Here's my thinking:
1) They're unlikely to have any scythes or any skill using them. As in, these aren't weapons they're liable to have lying around that they can just bring to bear against enemies.
2) Given the above, scythes are unlikely to have the same cultural symbolism for giants they they do for humans, hence they probably won't be using them for that reason either.
3) Even under optimal circumstances, scythes are still going to be an awkward melee weapon (they require a specific posture and that the targets be clumped up in a specific location). Hence, I can't see them specifically making a scythe for this purpose - especially when other, far simpler weapons can do the same job with less effort.

In terms of other weapons, I think the big one would be to weaponize their feet in some manner (or make them even more effective as weapons). Maybe some blades on their boots so that they can kill humans just by stepping near them? Otherwise, giant-sized halberds could be rather unpleasant - given that they could attack people with them from half a continent away. :smallwink:

(I'm exaggerating a little, but there's definitely something to be said for a melee weapon with the approximate range of a longbow.)

[Unoriginal]

A farming scythe's shape is just too awkward to wield to make it as good a weapon as an actual built-for-combat item.

As for Giants, they tend to go for simplicity and versatility rather than the specialized. A Giant's club might not be the absolute best to do swipes against enemies, but it's good enough to do this AND single target vertical strikes AND single target horizontal attacks, etc. Same thing for the other weapons the Giants use.

[Laserlight]

If I were fighting something a third or a quarter of my height, I'd still rather use a mallet or baseball bat instead of a scythe...particularly if the target is armored, and I don't normally mow grass/reap grain, and I might also fight something my own size.

In the Narnia books, Giants put on spiked boots before going to battle.

[sophontteks]

Fun fact: A lot of the "type names" we have for different types of sword and polearm date back no earlier then the Victorians. In medieval times a sword was a sword and they didn't split it into 50 sub types.
Yeah for western medieval times. But they were primitive barbarians who wielded mostly blunt sticks, or whatever they could find/afford. In the full medieval world weapon variety was large. The byzantines alone had a ton of variety, since they were always at war fighting with very different tactics on different fronts.

[Unoriginal]

Yeah for western medieval times. But they were primitive barbarians who wielded mostly blunt sticks, or whatever they could find/afford.

Yeah, no. Sorry to be rude, but it's a ridiculously wrong statement.

Western medieval people were not primitive barbarians, and they did not wield "mostly blunt sticks, or whatever they could find/afford".

That baseless stereotype was invented by Renaissance and Victorian people.

The Western world didn't have less variety in weapons and tactics.

[KorvinStarmast]

Also, scythe is better then most polearms because you can harvest grain with it. And with that grain you make beer. And when you drink, you need to kill stuff. Very important for me that my weapons go full circle. I find your post intriguing, and would like to subscribe to your newsletter. :smallsmile:

Didn't you know 5th ed is the appeal to nostalgia? And what else is more nostalgic then the stupid number of polearm on your weapon table (https://panzerleader.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/1e-weaponstable.jpg)? What we have now is the uneasy arrangement between a good weapons system and Glaive/Glaive-Guisarme/Guisarme/Guisarme-Voulge And don't forget the Moravian Ear Spoon ... :smallbiggrin:
In the Narnia books, Giants put on spiked boots before going to battle. And carried (golf) clubs, right? :smallbiggrin:

[sophontteks]

Yeah, no. Sorry to be rude, but it's a ridiculously wrong statement.

Western medieval people were not primitive barbarians, and they did not wield "mostly blunt sticks, or whatever they could find/afford".

That baseless stereotype was invented by Renaissance and Victorian people.

The Western world didn't have less variety in weapons and tactics.
Western bias is strong in you.

The center of the civilized world was Modern day China, Rome, late rome (byzantine), and later Muslims. The europeans were primitive barbarians for most of history through the crusades, which they lost. Their tactics were frankly pathetic and most of the common soldiers, who made up the vast majority of their army, really were armed with clubs.

Look it up man. Simple blunt weapons were extremely common. Swords were for the rich, or for professional armies like that of the byzantine armies.

The european renaissance was spurred by great byzantine thinkers and artists fleeing the ottoman empire into italy. And european tactics in late medieval were a result of things they learned fighting more advanced cultures in the crusades.

Western history teaches us how great the longbow was when eastern cultures were using far more advanced composite bows hundreds of years before it ever entered the field. Those were peasant soldiers being praised over elite and advanced horse warriors that took over much of the civilized world. The west was primitive and the only reason you believe they were anything more is because they don't teach eastern history.

Now if you mean late medieval post-crusades. Yeah, they were at the top. The mongols did their damage and the west learned much in the crusades. They rapidly developed arms and armor but by then they had a huge variety of weapons themselves.

Just to emphasize how primitive the west was look up the Crusade of Nicopolis (1396). They assembled a late crusade of 120,000-130,000 soldiers across many western nations to quell the rising threat of the turks. They were slaughtered like lambs by a much smaller Ottoman force. This isn't early medieval. This is well after they campaigned in the east. The west was still inferior in tactics, logistics, and weaponry.

[Willie the Duck]

Fun fact:...


Didn't you know...


Yeah for western medieval times...


Yeah, no. Sorry to be rude, but it's a ridiculously wrong statement...



Western bias is strong in you...

Can we just not do this? No one has ever impressed anyone else on a fantasy gaming message board by bringing forth their supposed great trove of real world medieval weapons knowledge. Ever.

A scythe is an iconic fantasy weapon used by none other than the Grim Reaper himself. It doesn't need to make sense. The trident isn't on the weapons chart because of some one historical example where it was used in warfare or the like, it is there because of Poseidon and gladiator flicks.

[Tetrasodium]

Can we just not do this? No one has ever impressed anyone else on a fantasy gaming message board by bringing forth their supposed great trove of real world medieval weapons knowledge. Ever.

A scythe is an iconic fantasy weapon used by none other than the Grim Reaper himself. It doesn't need to make sense. The trident isn't on the weapons chart because of some one historical example where it was used in warfare or the like, it is there because of Poseidon and gladiator flicks.

Right now only net & lance have the "special" quality, A giant's scythe & spiked boots would likewise probably have the same to reflect their design being the combat of ground bound creatures 1+ size categories lower than the user. It doesn't really matter if they are things on the weapons chart or like the many giant specific weapons (rock & shield already mentioned) exist as an entry in the relevant monster statblocks.

[LudicSavant]

Can we just not do this? No one has ever impressed anyone else on a fantasy gaming message board by bringing forth their supposed great trove of real world medieval weapons knowledge. Ever.

Ugh. Can we not do the whole anti-intellectualism thing, topped off with a false bandwagon appeal? :smallannoyed:

If you want to say they're wrong, that's one thing. If you want to say that you don't care about facts, that's another thing. But don't go around saying that nobody cares about facts.

[Tetrasodium]

Ugh. Can we not do the whole anti-intellectualism thing, topped off with a false bandwagon appeal? :smallannoyed:

I think that to some degree it's more how so many people obviously didn't read/understand the OP & were arguing about something not even tangentially related to it*


* Unless I missed that day in school where they covered the wars between humans & the well equipped giants who slaughtered humans brutally.... or even that day where giants were a real thing.

[LudicSavant]

The link I posted discusses the use of scythes by giants, by the way.

[Willie the Duck]

Those posters put in actual effort and made informative posts. Can we not do the whole anti-intellectualism thing? Nobody is impressed by your statement of not being impressed. :smallannoyed:

I would call it anti-pissing-match, but we are undoubtedly coming at this from different perspectives. What I saw does not look like an honest and forthright attempt to start an informative and respectful conversation. Since neither of us have any authority, how about we just both ask everyone to try to be as civil as possible, and then let them decide whether to move forward with the tangent?

[War_lord]

Can we just not do this? No one has ever impressed anyone else on a fantasy gaming message board by bringing forth their supposed great trove of real world medieval weapons knowledge. Ever.

I'm not trying to impress anyone. I'm pointing out how dumb the massive weapon lists in earlier editions are. Want a Katana? The Longsword stats work fine. Bohemian Earspoon? Just use the spear stats. Estoc? Just use Rapier stats. There's very few weapons out there that genuinely merit different stats from whatever design they're derived from.


A scythe is an iconic fantasy weapon used by none other than the Grim Reaper himself.

The Grim Reaper didn't have the scythe as a weapon. The Grim Reaper had a scythe because as a symbolic representation of death he was a *Reaper* of souls. Harvesting souls like a farmer, hence wielding the same tool a farmer would use.


It doesn't need to make sense. The trident isn't on the weapons chart because of some one historical example where it was used in warfare or the like, it is there because of Poseidon and gladiator flicks.

The difference is that you could actually use a trident to fight someone, even if it's not ideal of the task. Net and trident was a common Roman Gladiator set. The Scythe is a farming implement, designed for cutting crops, with a purpose shaped handle and blade and makes for a horrible weapon. The "War Scythe" has only a superficial resemblance to said farming tool.

Even if we're talking about Giants, there's no reason to use a farming implement. A Giant would likely use some form of Mace. No edge alignment to worry about, could smash entire formations of humans, still effective against other giant sized foes. The idea of using a farming Scythe in combat is double bladed sword levels of stupid. Hell, thinking about it logically now, why would they run into melee at all when it's well established that D&D giants are very, very talented at hucking massive rocks around?

And, while we're talking about ideas dredged up from 3.5 thinking. Why would they have spikes on their boot soles for non-grip purposes? A male Frost giant apparently weights around 2,400 lbs. If 1+ tonnes of weight lands on your head, you're going to be a smear on the field anyway.

[Knaight]

I'm not trying to impress anyone. I'm pointing out how dumb the massive weapon lists in earlier editions are. Want a Katana? The Longsword stats work fine. Bohemian Earspoon? Just use the spear stats. Estoc? Just use Rapier stats. There's very few weapons out there that genuinely merit different stats from whatever design they're derived from.
...
The difference is that you could actually use a trident to fight someone, even if it's not ideal of the task. Net and trident was a common Roman Gladiator set. The Scythe is a farming implement, designed for cutting crops, with a purpose shaped handle and blade and makes for a horrible weapon. The "War Scythe" has only a superficial resemblance to said farming tool..

Ont he other hand, the trident is also an amazingly good example of something that fits that smaller list. It's a spear, it uses the spear stats, done.

[War_lord]

Ont he other hand, the trident is also an amazingly good example of something that fits that smaller list. It's a spear, it uses the spear stats, done.

I'm not here to argue that the weapons list doesn't have some headscratchers (Glaive and Halberd anyone?). But the Scythe was never a weapon, at any point. The blade shape alone kills it.

[Willie the Duck]

I'm not trying to impress anyone. I'm pointing out how dumb the massive weapon lists in earlier editions are. Want a Katana? The Longsword stats work fine. Bohemian Earspoon? Just use the spear stats. Estoc? Just use Rapier stats. There's very few weapons out there that genuinely merit different stats from whatever design they're derived from.

And 'impress' clearly hit some people the wrong way. Things were headed towards going hammer and tongs (which thankfully don't have stats), and I was hoping to encourage it to move more towards what you just said now.

I agree that the massively multiple table is unnecessary. Although when it was really unnecessary was 2e when you paid for proficiency for each separately.


The Grim Reaper didn't have the scythe as a weapon. The Grim Reaper had a scythe because as a symbolic representation of death he was a *Reaper* of souls. Harvesting souls like a farmer, hence wielding the same tool a farmer would use.

Sure, but if you are creating a Reaper-esque character type, he will be wielding a scythe. I don't play Warhammer, but I'm confident there are miniatures for that very thing. If you are doing the same for your D&D character, you adhere to the thematics (and hopefully just use the stats for a greatax, IMO, as again I agree that we don't need whole tables full of minorly-different weapon stats). I'm suggesting that realism is a priority for some gamers, and theme for others. OP is not suggesting adding scythe to the weapon list, he's suggesting putting it on creature statblock for something like 'lawnmowing-threat giant.'

[War_lord]

Sure, but if you are creating a Reaper-esque character type, he will be wielding a scythe.

I would hope what would happen is your DM would dopeslap you for being an edgelord. And THEN point out that a Scythe doesn't work as a weapon.

[Tetrasodium]

I would hope what would happen is your DM would dopeslap you for being an edgelord. And THEN point out that a Scythe doesn't work as a weapon.

Maybe ou should point out how it was meant to go alongside that casting of your scorlockadin's enlarge & ask what kind of special mechanic it then has against small & medium creatures when you are large

[War_lord]

Maybe ou should point out how it was meant to go alongside that casting of your scorlockadin's enlarge & ask what kind of special mechanic it then has against small & medium creatures when you are large

Why would it have a special mechanic? I just explained that the Farming Scythe isn't a good weapon purely from the design alone, even fighting a tiny foe. I don't agree with everything Lindy says, but he nicely explains the design reasons a Scythe is a crap weapon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rzQwzg5_mo

[War_lord]

Yeah for western medieval times. But they were primitive barbarians who wielded mostly blunt sticks, or whatever they could find/afford. In the full medieval world weapon variety was large. The byzantines alone had a ton of variety, since they were always at war fighting with very different tactics on different fronts.

Katana means "single edged sword", Dao means "single edged sword/knife", Spatha means "broadsword", Gladius means "sword".

[sophontteks]

Katana means "single edged sword", Dao means "single edged sword/knife", Spatha means "broadsword", Gladius means "sword".

Oh I was alreary scolded. But all these weapons are very distinct in how they are used. Like a gladius is used like a dagger. Romans just run around shanking people. Its super effective.

I wish the list included weapons not so easily fluffed like the Byzantine long darts (lead darts thrown overheard. So cool) and roman pilums, for example.

[Armored Walrus]

I feel like this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?548448-Got-a-Real-World-Weapon-Armor-or-Tactics-Question-Mk-XXV) is the thread some of you are looking for. :P

Regarding weapons for giants to use vs humans/humanoids - ok, I'll grant they probably wouldn't adopt farming implements- what plants would giants farm? (although that could be a fantasy idea thread on its own). How about something like a polo/croquet mallet? Maybe they throw a giant blanket over you to trap you, then smack you with a shoe? If you surprise a giant farmwife in her kitchen, does she slam a giant bucket down on top of you, put a boulder on top of it, and make her husband take you outside and release you once the rock ball game is over? (it's the giants vs the titans, by the way)

[War_lord]

Oh I was alreary scolded. But all these weapons are very distinct in how they are used. Like a gladius is used like a dagger. Romans just run around shanking people. Its super effective.

Use the shortsword stat block, boom, done.


I wish the list included weapons not so easily fluffed like the Byzantine long darts (lead darts thrown overheard. So cool) and roman pilums, for example.

Use the dart statblock for the Plumbatae, Javelin statblock for the Pilum.


Regarding weapons for giants to use vs humans/humanoids - ok, I'll grant they probably wouldn't adopt farming implements- what plants would giants farm? (although that could be a fantasy idea thread on its own). How about something like a polo/croquet mallet? Maybe they throw a giant blanket over you to trap you, then smack you with a shoe? If you surprise a giant farmwife in her kitchen, does she slam a giant bucket down on top of you, put a boulder on top of it, and make her husband take you outside and release you once the rock ball game is over? (it's the giants vs the titans, by the way)

As I said, probably a club or Maul of some kind if they were expecting to fight non-giant foes exclusively. A Giant sized humanoid welding a giant sized weapon against a normal sized foe is going to crush anyone they hit, so surface area actually becomes an issue.

[sophontteks]

Use the shortsword stat block, boom, done.



Use the dart statblock for the Plumbatae, Javelin statblock for the Pilum.



As I said, probably a club or Maul of some kind if they were expecting to fight non-giant foes exclusively. A Giant sized humanoid welding a giant sized weapon against a normal sized foe is going to crush anyone they hit, so surface area actually becomes an issue.
Lead long darts were much heavier then darts. They went through decent armor like butter. And a pilum is distinct from a javelin. Its made to break on a shield, rendering the shield useless.

These unique weapon properties were one of the best parts of pathfinder. In 5e, even between the short selection of weapons, there isn't really much difference.

Sure we can fluff them. There's nothing really special about most weapons in 5e anyway. But its still a weakpoint in the game IMO. A missed opportunity to give martial fighters some variety and distinction.

Armor is even worse.

[Tetrasodium]

Lead long darts were much heavier then darts. They went through decent armor like butter. And a pilum is distinct from a javelin. Its made to break on a shield, rendering the shield useless.

These unique weapon properties were one of the best parts of pathfinder. In 5e, even between the short selection of weapons, there isn't really much difference.

Sure we can fluff them. There's nothing really special about most weapons in 5e anyway. But its still a weakpoint in the game IMO. A missed opportunity to give martial fighters some variety and distinction.

Armor is even worse.


I agree, a few more weapons with special qualities would add more tactical variation for martial types. With a +1 weapon all that is needed to bypass the resistance/immunity of nearly anything in the game there is rarely any reason to use anything buy the highest damage weapon unless it deaks poison damage or something silly

[War_lord]

Lead long darts were much heavier then darts. They went through decent armor like butter.

If anything smaller then a scorpion bolt goes through your armor like butter, your armor is not decent. Even the medieval Crossbow is not the magic anti-armor device some think of it as.


And a pilum is distinct from a javelin. Its made to break on a shield, rendering the shield useless.

I'm going to be generous and assume you mean bend upon impact and stay there. As a javelin that broke on impact wouldn't be very useful. But in truth there's very little evidence to support the assertion that the bending was a sought after feature rather then a consequence of the metal used.


These unique weapon properties were one of the best parts of pathfinder. In 5e, even between the short selection of weapons, there isn't really much difference.

Then go play Pathfinder.


Sure we can fluff them. There's nothing really special about most weapons in 5e anyway. But its still a weakpoint in the game IMO. A missed opportunity to give martial fighters some variety and distinction.

The reality is that you don't get variety and distinction. What happens is that everyone figures out pretty quickly that most of the weapons are mechanically inferior to other options, so they end up using the five actually good weapons and ignoring the rest of the list. It's the same quantity vs quality argument that comes up every time 3.5 is compared to 5e.

Sure, you have more options on paper, but when you remove all the trap options, you end up with the same amount of actually useful content.

[sophontteks]

If anything smaller then a scorpion bolt goes through your armor like butter, your armor is not decent. Even the medieval Crossbow is not the magic anti-armor device some think of it as.



I'm going to be generous and assume you mean bend upon impact and stay there. As a javelin that broke on impact wouldn't be very useful. But in truth there's very little evidence to support the assertion that the bending was a sought after feature rather then a consequence of the metal used.



Then go play Pathfinder.



The reality is that you don't get variety and distinction. What happens is that everyone figures out pretty quickly that most of the weapons are mechanically inferior to other options, so they end up using the five actually good weapons and ignoring the rest of the list. It's the same quantity vs quality argument that comes up every time 3.5 is compared to 5e.

Sure, you have more options on paper, but when you remove all the trap options, you end up with the same amount of actually useful content.
You seem personally offended that I brought up that pathfinder has a better system then 5e. I can use other systems as examples on ways 5e can improve without being told to "go play other game." Thanks. If you want to actually argue the subject instead that would be nice.

If you played pathfinder you'd know that many of the weapons are actually pretty useful. Far more options then 5e.

Pilums broke on impact. If it is bent, it is broken. Please, just look up things before you post. Why would a roman care if his thrown weapon broke "oh no now my enemy can't throw my weapon back at me." That IS a feature. Look at a pilum. Its shaft is long, thin soft iron. The intention of this design is clear. It bends on shields, forcing the enemy to discard them.

In the time period lead long darts were used, what constituted decent armor was of a lower standard and in general heavy armors were exclusive to the elite. Weightedng darts are deadlier then you believe. They have an incredible amount of power behind them making up for their very short effective range. Heavily armored kataphractoi would throw them into the enemy while charging in on horseback. Imagine a large pointed lead object falling from the sky, and hitting you. Its gonna hurt.

[Zerdal]

My two cents:



"Scythe is kind of niche as a weapon, plus not much record of it used in combat iirc"




Regarding scythes as weapons for human characters, no, you'd never use an actual scythe.


Apparently Mike Mearls and some people in this topic didn't bother to use google.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosynierzy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_scythe

As you can see on illustrations below, the historical war scythe resembles a glaive, so it's perfectly fine to use glaive stats for it, as other people already suggested.
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosynierzy#/media/File:Kosy_i_piki.jpg

[Dr. Cliché]

Apparently Mike Mearls and some people in this topic didn't bother to use google.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosynierzy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_scythe

As you can see on illustrations below, the historical war scythe resembles a glaive, so it's perfectly fine to use glaive stats for it, as other people already suggested.
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosynierzy#/media/File:Kosy_i_piki.jpg

I find it ironic that you accuse others (including myself) of not reading the topic, yet it seems you couldn't even be bothered to read my post.

What's more, you quote me as saying that you'd never use an actual scythe in combat and prove me wrong . . . by linking articles where people don't use actual scythes. :smallconfused:

[Zerdal]

The war scythe is still a scythe, just a different kind. Thus, sentence "a scythe was never used" is wrong. :)

[Unoriginal]

My two cents:





Apparently Mike Mearls and some people in this topic didn't bother to use google.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosynierzy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_scythe

As you can see on illustrations below, the historical war scythe resembles a glaive, so it's perfectly fine to use glaive stats for it, as other people already suggested.
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosynierzy#/media/File:Kosy_i_piki.jpg

A war scythe is not a scythe.

Same way a grain flail is not a flail. Or that a siege engine is not a car engine.

[Dr. Cliché]

The war scythe is still a scythe, just a different kind. Thus, sentence "a scythe was never used" is wrong. :)

No, it isn't an actual scythe. Otherwise it would not need the word 'war' in front of it to distinguish it from such.

A war-scythe is, as you say, basically just a glaive.

An actual scythe - as in the agricultural tool - is completely different.
- The main handle is a different shape.
- There are secondary handles (which are what the user actually holds).
- The blade is a different design.
- The blade is much thinner.
- The blade is set at a specific angle.

If you're interested, then I'll leave this here because it's probably easier to understand if you see it visually (rather than my trying to describe it in words). This is an actual scythe:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rzQwzg5_mo

[Zerdal]

Depends on the example. A chainsaw is still a saw and for me the war scythe is still a scythe. So, let's agree to disagree.

[INDYSTAR188]

So my group just started playing Curse of Strahd (we just finished session 0/made it to the village of Barovia). One of them is playing a Grave Cleric and wanted to use a scythe. I told him to adopt the glaive; we went with d8 damage, heavy, reach, 2-handed. Does that seem about right? I thought visually it was super expressive and it's not a big deal to fluff another option for us.

[Zerdal]

It's not a big deal to fluff another option for us.

Just like you said - refluffing existing weapons is not a big deal. In my games, I use rapier stats for a sabre, as an alternative for swashbucklers.

[DarkKnightJin]

So my group just started playing Curse of Strahd (we just finished session 0/made it to the village of Barovia). One of them is playing a Grave Cleric and wanted to use a scythe. I told him to adopt the glaive; we went with d8 damage, heavy, reach, 2-handed. Does that seem about right? I thought visually it was super expressive and it's not a big deal to fluff another option for us.

Just let them have the d10. That 1 extra damage on average isn't going to break things. And remember that Clerics get 1 attack per round.

[Dr. Cliché]

So my group just started playing Curse of Strahd (we just finished session 0/made it to the village of Barovia). One of them is playing a Grave Cleric and wanted to use a scythe. I told him to adopt the glaive; we went with d8 damage, heavy, reach, 2-handed. Does that seem about right? I thought visually it was super expressive and it's not a big deal to fluff another option for us.

I'm assuming he's using something either resembling the aforementioned war-scythe (in which case it's already a glaive) or else a gliave-like weapon, but with the blade mounted perpendicular to the shaft? (As opposed to the agricultural implement with a paper-thin blade and awkwardly-curved shaft.)

Either way, I don't see why you'd need to reduce the damage for it.

[INDYSTAR188]

Just let them have the d10. That 1 extra damage on average isn't going to break things. And remember that Clerics get 1 attack per round.

That's a good point. He's probably going to be casting spells more often than not in any case.

[INDYSTAR188]

I'm assuming he's using something either resembling the aforementioned war-scythe (in which case it's already a glaive) or else a gliave-like weapon, but with the blade mounted perpendicular to the shaft? (As opposed to the agricultural implement with a paper-thin blade and awkwardly-curved shaft.)

Either way, I don't see why you'd need to reduce the damage for it.

The mini we bought (cleric of Neill #30) has a traditional, farming scythe but we've been referring to it as a "war scythe" just assuming that was a fantasy concept... today I learned.

[Tetrasodium]

No, it isn't an actual scythe. Otherwise it would not need the word 'war' in front of it to distinguish it from such.

A war-scythe is, as you say, basically just a glaive.

An actual scythe - as in the agricultural tool - is completely different.
- The main handle is a different shape.
- There are secondary handles (which are what the user actually holds).
- The blade is a different design.
- The blade is much thinner.
- The blade is set at a specific angle.

If you're interested, then I'll leave this here because it's probably easier to understand if you see it visually (rather than my trying to describe it in words). This is an actual scythe:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rzQwzg5_mo

I think the video does a nice job of showing why it would be a great weapon in situations like this (https://www.dropbox.com/s/66ltc3ziyckb8lb/photo_2018-05-14_10-57-19.jpg?dl=0) where a giant is looking down on their foes regularly.

[War_lord]

You seem personally offended that I brought up that pathfinder has a better system then 5e.

If you think Pathfinder is a better system then 5e, why are you even here?


I can use other systems as examples on ways 5e can improve without being told to "go play other game." Thanks. If you want to actually argue the subject instead that would be nice.

"Make it more like systems I like" isn't actually trying to improve 5th edition. If the ways you'd improve 5e already exist in other systems, what is the point of coming in here and trying to crap on the system for superfluous reasons?


If you played pathfinder you'd know that many of the weapons are actually pretty useful. Far more options then 5e.

I wouldn't play Pathfinder because anything that looks at d20 and says "this is a path worth continuing down" is not something worth wasting my time on. Talking about "options" is useless, because the whole 3.5/Pathfinder business model is to put out as much low quality crap as possible to feed the character building minigame. I'm long grown out of that grognard mindset and the associated range of personality disorders.


Pilums broke on impact. If it is bent, it is broken. Please, just look up things before you post. Why would a roman care if his thrown weapon broke "oh no now my enemy can't throw my weapon back at me." That IS a feature. Look at a pilum. Its shaft is long, thin soft iron. The intention of this design is clear. It bends on shields, forcing the enemy to discard them.

"Please just look up things before you post"

Considering that a quick glance at wikipedia would have told you that there's doubt as to the accuracy of the claim that bending was part of the weapon's design, such as the fact that some Pila had harded shanks, or the common use of the Pilum as an improvised spear against foes like the Alans. Or that De re militari dates to long after the Pilum was replaced by other throwing weapons. Or hell, basic physics, a weapon that bends on impact is going to be wasting a lot of energy going sideways instead of concentrating force into the target, which is a bit of an issue when you're trying to brag about its armor piercing abilities.

The fact is that you're repeating one of those common assertion that everyone considers a "fact" until they actually do a little more research and realize things aren't so clean cut. Now if you want to argue that that's wikipedia and not an academic source, I'd be happy to track one down, after all I haven't had to spend all my money on bad splat books.


In the time period lead long darts were used, what constituted decent armor was of a lower standard and in general heavy armors were exclusive to the elite.

This is a D&D forum, so I'm talking about D&D armor, which means chainmail is ubiquitous and Plate is not uncommon.


Weightedng darts are deadlier then you believe. They have an incredible amount of power behind them making up for their very short effective range. Heavily armored kataphractoi would throw them into the enemy while charging in on horseback. Imagine a large pointed lead object falling from the sky, and hitting you. Its gonna hurt.

Javelins hurt, Irish war darts hurt, sling stones hurt, crossbow bolts hurt, arrows hurt, daggers hurt, swords hurt, maces hurt. The question that matters is "does this weapon legitimately have some special property that within 5e's level of abstraction justifies a special property." and we're talking about a system that doesn't even have armor penetration.

[Dr. Cliché]

I think the video does a nice job of showing why it would be a great weapon in situations like this (https://www.dropbox.com/s/66ltc3ziyckb8lb/photo_2018-05-14_10-57-19.jpg?dl=0) where a giant is looking down on their foes regularly.

That could work, but I think a giant would be better off just attacking with a club or such (since the scythe would require enemies to be in quite a specific position, relative to the giant).

Would make for an amusing scene, though.

[Tetrasodium]

That could work, but I think a giant would be better off just attacking with a club or such (since the scythe would require enemies to be in quite a specific position, relative to the giant).

Would make for an amusing scene, though.

if it was spiked on the swing & backswing, it wouldn't need to have opponents in too specific a position& you've got spiked boots/leggings to kick things that need it