Taking the 1 Charisma away from a skeleton

[Kilomonus]

So, my friends and I were debating the other day... What happens when a spell, cast by whatever, does a point of charisma damage to a skeleton?

[mabriss lethe]

You mean, barring the fact that undead are immune to ability damage and drain? That's a pretty big hurdle to cross. But assuming you could bypass the immunity and drop a skeleton's Cha to 0... The skeleton would basically go catatonic and be considered Helpless, just like everything else (assuming we're talking about 3.5, and not PF. Not sure if they use the same definitions or not.)

[Doctor Awkward]

You mean, barring the fact that undead are immune to ability damage and drain? That's a pretty big hurdle to cross. But assuming you could bypass the immunity and drop a skeleton's Cha to 0... The skeleton would basically go catatonic and be considered Helpless, just like everything else (assuming we're talking about 3.5, and not PF. Not sure if they use the same definitions or not.)

Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType) are actually only immune to ability damage to their physical scores.


So an Ego Whip (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/egoWhip.htm) would knock a skeleton unconscious regardless of whether or not it saved.

[Nifft]

Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType) are actually only immune to ability damage to their physical scores.

So an Ego Whip (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/egoWhip.htm) would knock a skeleton unconscious regardless of whether or not it saved.

You're right about mental-score ability damage, but you're wrong about that power.

Here's why:



Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).




Telepathy [Mind-Affecting]

[Uncle Pine]

So an Ego Whip (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/egoWhip.htm) would knock a skeleton unconscious regardless of whether or not it saved.

Skeletons are also mindless, making them immune to Ego Whip (a mind-affecting power).

If you can find a way to deal Charisma damage to a skeleton to which the skeleton isn't immune, you'd turn it into an unconscious animated pile of bones.

[Doctor Awkward]

You're right about mental-score ability damage, but you're wrong about that power.

Here's why:


Skeletons are also mindless, making them immune to Ego Whip (a mind-affecting power).

If you can find a way to deal Charisma damage to a skeleton to which the skeleton isn't immune, you'd turn it into an unconscious animated pile of bones.

....Doh... :smallredface:

[Baroncognito]

Well, there is the Sorceror Undead bloodline:
Some undead are susceptible to your mind-affecting spells. Corporeal undead that were once humanoids are treated as humanoids for the purposes of determining which spells affect them.

[mabriss lethe]

Whelp, I'm an idiot today. I'd forgotten that they weren't immune to mental ability score damage. they've got so many blanket immunities, that it just becomes a bit of mental shorthand to ignore all of it.

The Affliction, Pride in Vain would do it then.

[BlackOnyx]

Undead (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#undeadType) are actually only immune to ability damage to their physical scores.

Per the SRD, creatures with a Con of -- are inherently immune to ability damage, ability drain, and energy drain in general. That in mind, the specification of physical ability scores under the undead description can be viewed as redundant, rather than all inclusive. (The two entries don't necessarily conflict.)

That said, RAI can be hard to pin down sometimes.

[Doctor Awkward]

Per the SRD, creatures with a Con of -- are inherently immune to ability damage, ability drain, and energy drain in general. That in mind, the specification of physical ability scores under the undead description can be viewed as redundant, rather than all inclusive. (The two entries don't necessarily conflict.)

That said, RAI can be hard to pin down sometimes.

The specific description of Undead is an exception to the general rules provided by "Nonabilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#nonabilities)"

Per the errata, individual monster descriptions take precedent over other general rules.

[heavyfuel]

Maiming Strike feat from Exemplars of Evil works if you can get Sneak Attack to undead using something like (Lightbringer) Penetrating Strike, or Grave Strike

[RoboEmperor]

Bind a Paeliryon and have her land a claw attack. Her Deform (Ex) ability deals 1d4 charisma damage everytime her claw attack hits.

[Ellrin]

The specific description of Undead is an exception to the general rules provided by "Nonabilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#nonabilities)"

Per the errata, individual monster descriptions take precedent over other general rules.

While specific trumping general is pretty much always the rule in 3e, is there any relevant text under the description of Undead that actually conflicts with the general rules? If not, as BlackOnyx said, this sounds like more of a case of redundancy rather than replacement, at least per RAW.

[Mechalich]

Would knocking a skeleton (or other mindless undead) 'unconscious; even matter anyway? This doesn't seem like something that would disrupt any functions. It can still try to stick a pointy stick through you while catatonic, given that it arguably already is. This would matter more for an undead being with an actual personality. it makes legitimate sense that you could render such a thing catatonic by eliminating its force of personality, and is in fact in line with literary tropes for something like a banshee or vampire.

[InvisibleBison]

Would knocking a skeleton (or other mindless undead) 'unconscious; even matter anyway? This doesn't seem like something that would disrupt any functions. It can still try to stick a pointy stick through you while catatonic, given that it arguably already is. This would matter more for an undead being with an actual personality. it makes legitimate sense that you could render such a thing catatonic by eliminating its force of personality, and is in fact in line with literary tropes for something like a banshee or vampire.

Even if rendering a skeleton "unconscious" didn't have any actual effect, having a Charisma score of 0 would mean that the skeleton wouldn't be "capable of telling the difference between itself and things that are not itself" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#nonabilities). What exactly this would mean would depend on what orders the skeleton was operating under, but would almost certainly have some affect on its behavior.

[Mechalich]

Even if rendering a skeleton "unconscious" didn't have any actual effect, having a Charisma score of 0 would mean that the skeleton wouldn't be "capable of telling the difference between itself and things that are not itself" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#nonabilities). What exactly this would mean would depend on what orders the skeleton was operating under, but would almost certainly have some affect on its behavior.

Hmm...that's true, and it implies weird things about how D&D defines reality. A skeleton has no Int score, so it is a mindless automaton, but because it has a wisdom score and a Charisma of 1 it is a creature not an object, though looking at it, so does a golem. This would imply that the Charisma is supplied by the animating force (in the case of a skeleton Negative Energy). In that case, taking charisma damage means the animating force is gone and the skeleton ceases to function. This makes some sense, since it highlights the difference between a skeleton and a bone golem - which is immune to ability damage as a construct.

[Necroticplague]

Even if rendering a skeleton "unconscious" didn't have any actual effect, having a Charisma score of 0 would mean that the skeleton wouldn't be "capable of telling the difference between itself and things that are not itself" (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#nonabilities). What exactly this would mean would depend on what orders the skeleton was operating under, but would almost certainly have some affect on its behavior.
Don't forget that charisma also covers the vague 'force of personality'. While what exactly this is seems pretty vague, I believe it's of relevance here. I believe it refers to, at least in part, the kind of will one can impart onto the world (thus CHA casting). A creature with CHA 0 has lost this ability. They no longer have any personality or will to exert on the world. So they do nothing.

[Acanous]

Weather or not you can deal damage to it’s abilities is irrelevant, nothing in the game is immune to penalties to ability scores, such as that given by bestow curse.

A so cursed skeleton would have an effective CHA score of 0, which means an effective WIS score of 0, and it’s INT is already 0. It would be completely unable to recognize or interpret the world around it. A vegitible made of bone, so to speak.

[AlanBruce]

Weather or not you can deal damage to it’s abilities is irrelevant, nothing in the game is immune to penalties to ability scores, such as that given by bestow curse.

A so cursed skeleton would have an effective CHA score of 0, which means an effective WIS score of 0, and it’s INT is already 0. It would be completely unable to recognize or interpret the world around it. A vegitible made of bone, so to speak.

I have seen some house rules where, if the creature is immune to ability damage and drain, it's also covered versus penalties. That being said, Bestow Curse can do the following things:


You place a curse on the subject. Choose one of the following three effects.

–6 decrease to an ability score (minimum 1).

–4 penalty on attack rolls, saves, ability checks, and skill checks.

Each turn, the target has a 50% chance to act normally; otherwise, it takes no action.

You may also invent your own curse, but it should be no more powerful than those described above.


Skeletons already have a Charisma score of 1, so you can't lower it further with the above options for the spell, rendering that particular effect wasted on the skeleton.

[Jowgen]

Positoxins from LM as well as Ravages and Afflictions from BoED explictly deal ability damage to undead. Bloodwine, Lichbane, and the Pride in Vain affliction (accessible via the Affliction spell or ring) do Charisma.

[Uncle Pine]

Would knocking a skeleton (or other mindless undead) 'unconscious; even matter anyway? This doesn't seem like something that would disrupt any functions. It can still try to stick a pointy stick through you while catatonic, given that it arguably already is. This would matter more for an undead being with an actual personality. it makes legitimate sense that you could render such a thing catatonic by eliminating its force of personality, and is in fact in line with literary tropes for something like a banshee or vampire.
Unconscious creatures are knocked out and helpless. Skeletons, spiders, and other mindless creatures are not (at least not by definition).

[mabriss lethe]

The problem with positoxins is that they, too, can't drop an ability score below 1, except for Liquid Mortality. I don't think afflictions suffer that limitation,but tbh, I don't remember.

[Pleh]

At my table, I would say the skeleton's "force of personality" (whatever that means) has been lost. So it loses all motivation, stops taking action, and probably just falls into a pile of bones. Just my take.

[ExLibrisMortis]

At my table, I would say the skeleton's "force of personality" (whatever that means) has been lost. So it loses all motivation, stops taking action, and probably just falls into a pile of bones. Just my take.
Yeah, that's what I would rule. The bones "wake up" into a coherent skeleton after the Charisma has been restored. Mindless undead don't heal naturally, so that would take outside intervention.

[Acanous]

If you could pull it off magically, then populate a corridor with them, then an antimagic field would oddly enough reactivate them. Interesting trap for people running AMF to bypass traps

[ben-zayb]

Combine Maiming Strike with either Gravestrike or Rogue ACF that allows you to SA undead?

EDIT: Missed HeavyFuel's ninja skills