Feedback for Dexterity Kobold Barbarian Guide

[DrowPiratRobrts]

So because of carrdrivesyou's recent post about playing a Kobold PC (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?558309-Kobold-PC), I wanted to make a guide for this idea I had. It uses Pack Tactics and Totem Warrior to make the most of a Dex Barbarian. Your feedback is welcome. I'll do feats and weapons later, but suggestions are more than welcome. Anything you think I've missed? What stands out as good or bad in this build? I think it'd be super fun!

https://docs.google.com/document/d/15wOj-ca3T7q36rYkqiF9NLHn7rp-TCiqk0ewIzzFL84/edit?usp=sharing

UPDATE: 5/31/18- Updated Totem Warrior to include Elk and Tiger Spirits. Added Path of Ancestral Guardian, Storm Herald, and Zealot.

UPDATE: 6/5/2018, Updated Zealot, Storm Herald, and Ancestral Guardian with XGtE which differs on some abilities from the original UA that I first used.

[apepi]

Totemic Attunement Wolf part needs a spell check.

[DrowPiratRobrts]

Totemic Attunement Wolf part needs a spell check.

At first I thought you meant a "spell" check as in a magic spell. Haha, thanks for the heads up though! I was looking at it like, I don't think Totemic Attunement Wolf gives you any spells...*facepalm*

[xen]

Nice. Love me some kobolds. With all that free advantage and the high dex, combined with the meh of totem past the first choice, kinda begs for a rogue multi, doesn't it?

[DrowPiratRobrts]

Nice. Love me some kobolds. With all that free advantage and the high dex, combined with the meh of totem past the first choice, kinda begs for a rogue multi, doesn't it?

This could be a great multiclass with rogue and fighter particularly, but you are giving up Brutal Critical unless you just take a 1-3 level dip. At 17th level it gives you x5 weapon damage on a crit, which is nothing to balk at. Would it be worth it to get sneak attack of your own, or extra ASI from a fighter? Maybe so, but I'll wait to explore multiclassing until after I do feats and fighting styles.

[MeeposFire]

NOt seeing ability scores listed so just need to mention remember you need a 13 in str if you are going to multiclass out of barbarian. Also remember you that you have to use str on the attack roll if you want to use reckless attack and get rage damage.

Honestly I think the best version to go with on a dex barb if you are going to do it is ancestral barb since it makes it harder for enemies to ignore you. Other barbs are easier to ignore since your damage will be rather low and your defenses high but ancestral makes that a bad idea since you inflict disadvantage, reduce party damage taken, and later deal extra damage in relation to damage reduced.

That will make for a nasty combo since it will annoy enemies while being hard to kill. Also kobolds are very tribe oriented (for lack of a better term) so I think the ancestral version works for them.

[DrowPiratRobrts]

NOt seeing ability scores listed so just need to mention remember you need a 13 in str if you are going to multiclass out of barbarian. Also remember you that you have to use str on the attack roll if you want to use reckless attack and get rage damage.

Honestly I think the best version to go with on a dex barb if you are going to do it is ancestral barb since it makes it harder for enemies to ignore you. Other barbs are easier to ignore since your damage will be rather low and your defenses high but ancestral makes that a bad idea since you inflict disadvantage, reduce party damage taken, and later deal extra damage in relation to damage reduced.

That will make for a nasty combo since it will annoy enemies while being hard to kill. Also kobolds are very tribe oriented (for lack of a better term) so I think the ancestral version works for them.

I'll need to look into Ancestral. On the note about ability scores, I'm aware but thanks for mentioning. When I talk about multiclassing I'll mention that people need to change their scores to make it possible.

[DuctTapeKatar]

I always wanted to play a kobold barbarian with Totem of the falcon, just because of the flying ability at level 14.

A tiny little lizard man flying through the air like he was shot from a ballista, swinging a sword too big for him to have any business for him to own, and talking down to his foes who are almost thrice his size in a thick scottish accent.

[apepi]

May I suggest Champion for multiclass. It gives you a 9.25 increase on a crit.

[MeeposFire]

May I suggest Champion for multiclass. It gives you a 9.25 increase on a crit.

Are you counting using reckless attack with that? If you are you need to adjust your expectations as this is a dex barb build and you cannot use reckless attack with dex attacks so either your str will be low enough that you should not use it at all (though if that low the barba may not be able to multiclass at all since barb requires a str of 13) or you have to invest enough that using reckless attack works but it will still be less accurate and damaging than using dex so you still will be hurting.

[xen]

Are you counting using reckless attack with that? If you are you need to adjust your expectations as this is a dex barb build and you cannot use reckless attack with dex attacks so either your str will be low enough that you should not use it at all (though if that low the barba may not be able to multiclass at all since barb requires a str of 13) or you have to invest enough that using reckless attack works but it will still be less accurate and damaging than using dex so you still will be hurting.
Kobolds don't really need to use reckless attack since they can usually generate advantage from pack tactics.

[DrowPiratRobrts]

Kobolds don't really need to use reckless attack since they can usually generate advantage from pack tactics.

Precisely! You're basically making Reckless Attack much better by getting advantage without allowing your opponents the same benefit! Even though there's some minor redundancy there, it seems to be a net gain for the Barbarian even when you take away the extra damage they get from strength attacks. I'd rather hit much more often than get a few extra damage any time I hit.

[strangebloke]

Correction: Dex barbarians can't use reckless attack. Reckless attack only procs on Strength-based Melee weapon attacks.

...The guide should really be just one word saying "It's not good, but why not!"

I mean, mechanically, there's very little synergy between the kobold and the barbarian.

Rage? You miss out on a third of it's power by being Dex-focused, and gain nothing.
Reckless Attack? Can't use it at all, because you need to be Dex-focused.
Danger Sense? It isn't bad for a dex-focused build, but it isn't great, either.
Wolf Totem? Yeah, it's good, but no more for you than anyone else.

The only built-in synergy is the unarmored defense which will be worse than half-plate until level 8-12.

Compare this to building a kobold rogue:
Expertise? Hellllo stealth checks.
Sneak Attack? Free advantage + stealth = always proccing sneak attack, even at range.
Cunning Action? Did somebody say, run in, Grovel, run out? Because they should have.
Arcane Trickster? Get a familiar and look through his eyes to be a better scout on sunny days.

[DrowPiratRobrts]

Correction: Dex barbarians can't use reckless attack. Reckless attack only procs on Strength-based Melee weapon attacks.

What's your point? I've already stated this at least twice. Old news.


...The guide should really be just one word saying "It's not good, but why not!"

I mean, mechanically, there's very little synergy between the kobold and the barbarian.

Except you seem to be ignoring that Pack Tactics is much better than Reckless Attack, which is what I stated above. Being a Barbarian that almost always gets advantage has a huge upside, especially when the enemies aren't getting advantage back. You're harder to hit than a normal Barb, and you're not giving you're opponents advantage. When they do hit you, you still have Xd12 of HP they have to chunk through.


Rage? You miss out on a third of it's power by being Dex-focused, and gain nothing.

This is just wrong. You gain a LOT by sacrificing the bonus damage from raging. It's all over the guide. And it's not like Dex Barbs are a new concept. They're extremely viable. The Kobold just adds some flavor and gives you a racial ability even better than Reckless Attack (note that Reckless Attack only applies to the first attack on a turn, whereas Pack Tactics is always in play).


Reckless Attack? Can't use it at all, because you need to be Dex-focused.

For what seems like the hundredth time, Pack Tactics is better in every way than Reckless Attack.


Danger Sense? It isn't bad for a dex-focused build, but it isn't great, either.
Wolf Totem? Yeah, it's good, but no more for you than anyone else.

So how do either of these things make the build any worse if they're both good things to have and you're not giving something up?


The only built-in synergy is the unarmored defense which will be worse than half-plate until level 8-12.

Compare this to building a kobold rogue:
Expertise? Hellllo stealth checks.
Sneak Attack? Free advantage + stealth = always proccing sneak attack, even at range.
Cunning Action? Did somebody say, run in, Grovel, run out? Because they should have.
Arcane Trickster? Get a familiar and look through his eyes to be a better scout on sunny days.

The point of a Barb is different from the point of a Rogue. So as a Rogue you're much squishier and you get less attacks for one. The list goes on. These are different ideas that are unrelated to one another. Kobold Rogue is also good, but that doesn't make this build any worse or any less effective. In fact, if you have a Kobold Rogue and a Kobold Dex Barb in the same party, you'd trounce pretty much anyone in melee together.

[strangebloke]

This is just wrong. You gain a LOT by sacrificing the bonus damage from raging. It's all over the guide. And it's not like Dex Barbs are a new concept. They're extremely viable. The Kobold just adds some flavor and gives you a racial ability even better than Reckless Attack (note that Reckless Attack only applies to the first attack on a turn, whereas Pack Tactics is always in play).

No, u wrong.

"Doing so gives you advantage on melee weapon Attack rolls using Strength during this turn." It applies to all attacks on the turn. Reckless attack can't be used on attacks not on your turn but unlike pack tactics it can be used when you are isolated in melee, which will frequently happen on the first turn of combat or if the party is split/partially unconcious.

Reckless attack has to drawback of making you easier to hit. Pack Tactics has the drawback of sunlight sensitivity. A kobold barbarian in sunlight can't use reckless or pack tactics. Depending on the campaign, that's somewhere between debilitating and not a problem at all.

But you're missing my point. In the right campaign or with a permissive DM, (such that sunlight sensitivity isn't an issue) kobolds are one of the very strongest races. However, even in such a campaign, a kobold character could go into any other class than barbarian and get more useful features, because those features wouldn't be tied explicitly to Strength.

If the sunlight sensitivity is going to be a problem, kobolds as a race are a very bad choice for barbarians, since 50% of the time, they won't have any way to boost their accuracy, and they'll just be a fighter with resistance, but no action surge, second wind, or fighting style.

Basically, the barbarian is a class that is built to trade its phenomenal defensive power for offensive power via reckless attack, and if you don't have reckless attack and pack tactics is negated by sunlight sensitivity... all you're left with is defensive abilities, which... are fine, but don't help you do anything.


So how do either of these things make the build any worse if they're both good things to have and you're not giving something up?
They don't. But they also don't provide a reason to go kobold.

In fact, if you have a Kobold Rogue and a Kobold Dex Barb in the same party, you'd trounce pretty much anyone in melee together.
Well, the wolf totem kobold can't grant advantage to a kobold rogue who already has advantage, right? So that team-up isn't actually that strong.

----

Look, I feel that I'm coming across as harsher than I mean to. All I'm saying is that this isn't the most effective build ever. That's fine. You're still going to be dealing damage, and you're certainly not going to be easy to kill. But it's a bit silly to make an optimization guide that focused on such a narrow and mechanically mediocre idea.

To my mind, the best 'DEX-based Barbarian' is an ancestral guardians barb who still has decent strength and attacks with strength using TWF while raging, but doesn't use reckless attack often because he's focused on holding the attention of the boss and soaking hits.

A kobold isn't great for that concept, either, btw.

[Finieous]

And it's not like Dex Barbs are a new concept.

True. It's an old concept that should have died years ago. :smallbiggrin:


They're extremely viable.

The "viable" ones are rogues or fighters with a barbarian dip. Okay, that's too strong: A kobold Dex barb is "viable" in the same sense that any concept is "viable" in a roleplaying game. Few tables are going to refuse to let you play it. If it's fun for you, it's "viable."

[DrowPiratRobrts]

No, u wrong.

"Doing so gives you advantage on melee weapon Attack rolls using Strength during this turn." It applies to all attacks on the turn. Reckless attack can't be used on attacks not on your turn but unlike pack tactics it can be used when you are isolated in melee, which will frequently happen on the first turn of combat or if the party is split/partially unconcious.

Point taken, I misread that because of this qualifier: "...When you make your first attack on your turn, you can decide to attack recklessly..."

And you're not really coming across as harsh, though it's strange to me that you think a defensive, tank build that also grants you and your allies advantage all the time is a bad mechanical idea. I'm not saying this is the best class for a Kobold. Nowhere did I claim that. But this is certainly a great build for a Barbarian, provided you're not going to be in the desert/direct sunlight all the time without a caster in the party. One Minor Illusion can solve the sunlight sensitivity for most of a fight even if your DM rules very strictly RAW. Because you're small, it could actually even give you 3/4 to full cover depending on what you're hitting in the kneecaps.

[Theodoxus]

Reckless attack has to drawback of making you easier to hit. Pack Tactics has the drawback of sunlight sensitivity. A kobold barbarian in sunlight can't use reckless or pack tactics. Depending on the campaign, that's somewhere between debilitating and not a problem at all.


But this is certainly a great build for a Barbarian, provided you're not going to be in the desert/direct sunlight all the time without a caster in the party. One Minor Illusion can solve the sunlight sensitivity for most of a fight even if your DM rules very strictly RAW. Because you're small, it could actually even give you 3/4 to full cover depending on what you're hitting in the kneecaps.

You're both wrong. @ Strangebloke: Kobold's still get access to pack tactics when they @DrowPiratRobrts: or their opponent is in direct sunlight. They simply negate each other. If your non-kobold barbarian hits things without using reckless attack, your kobold can too.

Using illusions to block out the sun wouldn't really work except in some pretty specific instances - and I wouldn't rule that making an illusory parasol above your opponents head would block the glaring light negating your advantage... though that's just me.

Like all things kobold, it's best to fight indoors or at night. If you're traveling around in broad daylight, best to act like a vampire and hide away. While it's really not that bad - especially if you have party that supports you by having a melee combatant or two to grant pack tactics, some people put as much disparaging emphasis on sunlight sensitivity as others (or perhaps the same people) do on how vital having darkvision is on every character in a party ever.

I think a kobold barbarian has too little synergy to be a great contributor... and if I were playing a small, dex based barbie, I'd rather go stout halfling for the con bonus anyway - but as a one off jokey type thing, sure.

[DrowPiratRobrts]

Using illusions to block out the sun wouldn't really work except in some pretty specific instances - and I wouldn't rule that making an illusory parasol above your opponents head would block the glaring light negating your advantage... though that's just me.

That's your prerogative, but being in the shade isn't the same as being in "direct sunlight." Think about the benefit on your eyes when you're sitting under an umbrella on a white beach at mid day, vs having the light hit your eyes directly. It's the difference between squinting in pain and enjoying your day.

Additionally, sunglasses wouldn't be hard to fashion even without magic. Probably wouldn't cost more than 25-50 gp.

[MeeposFire]

As I recall (it has been a while since I looked so I could be wrong) but I believe sunlight sensitivity gives you disadvantage if you are in sun OR if your target is in the sun. Sun glasses would not help you if your enemy is in the sunlight.

[Davrix]

As I recall (it has been a while since I looked so I could be wrong) but I believe sunlight sensitivity gives you disadvantage if you are in sun OR if your target is in the sun. Sun glasses would not help you if your enemy is in the sunlight.


how do sunglasses NOT help with this? I mean....

Ok Real life moment here. I have Oculocutaneous albinism which in short means My eyes lack the filter to deal with UV rays in the sun. (So real life sunlight sensitivity) If i don't have dark enough shades on that have UV lenses in them I cant see crap because I am squinting to much. Wearing sunglasses however even in Direct sunlight I can see just fine, throw in a hat and its even more golden on my vision.

So yes sunglasses WOULD help which is why I joke and say Sunlight sensitivity for any race is sort of a easy work around with just a bit of gold and going to a glass smith and Jeweler or blacksmith to make glasses or goggles with some dark colored lenses. Oh and even without the glasses wearing a hat helps a ton, maybe not in direct sunlight but if its daylight out and the sun isn't directly over me the hat works very well in letting me see normal.

Now that's out of the way I whipped up a lv 8 kobold Barbarion myself just for the fun of it. Using the basic stat array and such I wound up with the following.

Str - 8 / Dex - 18 / Con - 16 / Int - 8 / Wis -12 / Char - 14

I used the lv for to Up Dex and Con by 1 then took the XGTE feat for kobolds they published as a supplement and used Urid Wings to get the DEX up to 18 at lv 8 and gain a fly speed of 30

Now I am pretty sure the increased movement just says your speed is increased by 10 which counts for both your flying and walking speed but someone can correct me if I am wrong here. (actually looks like it does if it works this way for the monk it would work for this and the mobile feat.

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/07/22/aaarakocra-monk-unarmored-movement/

I went with a rapier and whip with a shield in my offhand so with no armor my AC is around 19, which is respectable enough

So the biggest issues I can see by going DEX really is, no GWM fun. It also sucks not having the rage bonus to damage because that can stack up nicely with a fighter dip. Personally I would see if some kind DM's will still let you use your DEX vs STR during your rage but that's a game by game basis.

Honestly I am not sure why the limit the rage to STR when they let Dex play out for almost anything the fighter can do STR wise same with paladin for the most part. I am not sure what they are trying to prevent cheese wise by not allowing it.

Anyway Guide suggestions.

You shoudl probably cover the XGTE barbarion sub-classes.

The first bear totem should be ranked sky blue along with wolf. they both have there place are = good and it only depends on your group make up.

You will want to put a section in for at least a fighter dip weighting the pros of either Champion or battlemaster both are really nice to have in your pocket.

A weapons section and whether to go light or medium armor or no armor. Personally with a Dex build I think it works best with no armor as you are pumping your Dex and con to max and not working about Str at all. So you are going to have better AC then some Str based barbarians flat out.

As for feats the ones I can see doing well here still

Duel wielder - if you wanted to go more of duel short sword build
defensive duelist
Lucky
Sentinel
Mobile - episodically like above if your speed increase = your flying as well

[DrowPiratRobrts]

Anyway Guide suggestions.

You shoudl probably cover the XGTE barbarion sub-classes.

The first bear totem should be ranked sky blue along with wolf. they both have there place are = good and it only depends on your group make up.

You will want to put a section in for at least a fighter dip weighting the pros of either Champion or battlemaster both are really nice to have in your pocket.

A weapons section and whether to go light or medium armor or no armor. Personally with a Dex build I think it works best with no armor as you are pumping your Dex and con to max and not working about Str at all. So you are going to have better AC then some Str based barbarians flat out.

As for feats the ones I can see doing well here still

Duel wielder - if you wanted to go more of duel short sword build
defensive duelist
Lucky
Sentinel
Mobile - episodically like above if your speed increase = your flying as well

Thanks for the tips. These are pretty much the feats I was thinking of initially plus mobile. And I'll do the multi-class dips when I can. I also do want to go into the other subclasses of the Barb. And yes, bear is very good. I'll revise that.

[DrowPiratRobrts]

As I recall (it has been a while since I looked so I could be wrong) but I believe sunlight sensitivity gives you disadvantage if you are in sun OR if your target is in the sun. Sun glasses would not help you if your enemy is in the sunlight.

Yeah, except its clearly implied that your perspective is the one that matters. So potentially RAW you could be right, though not necessarily. But RAI seems pretty obvious that the disadvantage comes from you not being able to see the enemy in the bright light. So sunglasses are guarding your eyes such that the bright light, regardless of where it is, no longer affects your perception.

I think it would be interesting if you had your Dark Vision cut in half when wearing them though. Kind of a meaningless drawback, but it makes more sense that way imo.

[Consensus]

Hot take: +2 rage damage isn't that much really

[strangebloke]

That's your prerogative, but being in the shade isn't the same as being in "direct sunlight." Think about the benefit on your eyes when you're sitting under an umbrella on a white beach at mid day, vs having the light hit your eyes directly. It's the difference between squinting in pain and enjoying your day.

Additionally, sunglasses wouldn't be hard to fashion even without magic. Probably wouldn't cost more than 25-50 gp.


how do sunglasses NOT help with this? I mean....

Ok Real life moment here. I have Oculocutaneous albinism which in short means My eyes lack the filter to deal with UV rays in the sun. (So real life sunlight sensitivity) If i don't have dark enough shades on that have UV lenses in them I cant see crap because I am squinting to much. Wearing sunglasses however even in Direct sunlight I can see just fine, throw in a hat and its even more golden on my vision.

So yes sunglasses WOULD help which is why I joke and say Sunlight sensitivity for any race is sort of a easy work around with just a bit of gold and going to a glass smith and Jeweler or blacksmith to make glasses or goggles with some dark colored lenses. Oh and even without the glasses wearing a hat helps a ton, maybe not in direct sunlight but if its daylight out and the sun isn't directly over me the hat works very well in letting me see normal.


Ok, first of all, minor illusion really doesn't do anything here. It's not real. Light passes through it like glass. It doesn't provide cover. I realize this makes no sense and you're free to disregard it, but this is technically how the thing works.

Secondly while it's perfectly justifable to say that sunglasses should solve sunlight sensitivity... you should only do this if your intent is to make kobolds the most overpowered race in the game. Advantage is, if you're not a barbarian, very hard to come by, particularly at range.

It's also perfectly justifiable to say that sunglasses do nothing, since the reaction of a kobold or drow to sunlight is more like a curse. Not saying it has to be that way, just saying that it's not clear whether or not sunglasses would work.


Hot take: +2 rage damage isn't that much really

I mean, 1d6+5 is only 8.5 damage, so that +2 is going to be about 1/4 your total. But the real thing is, you're missing out on damage at a lot of points here.

1d6+5 = 8.5
vs.
2d6+5+2 = 14

Obviously GWM makes that split even greater, but as-is it's nearly double damage. Your AC is better to compensate, but there's no means of forcing the enemy to target you, so you kind of run into the moon druid problem, being an unkillable wall that watches helplessly as her friends get destroyed. This is, for the record, one of the reasons I'd heavily recommend the ancestral guardian barbarian here. That build makes it really suck for the boss to target anyone who is not you.

[DrowPiratRobrts]

Ok, first of all, minor illusion really doesn't do anything here. It's not real. Light passes through it like glass. It doesn't provide cover. I realize this makes no sense and you're free to disregard it, but this is technically how the thing works.

Secondly while it's perfectly justifable to say that sunglasses should solve sunlight sensitivity... you should only do this if your intent is to make kobolds the most overpowered race in the game. Advantage is, if you're not a barbarian, very hard to come by, particularly at range.

It's also perfectly justifiable to say that sunglasses do nothing, since the reaction of a kobold or drow to sunlight is more like a curse. Not saying it has to be that way, just saying that it's not clear whether or not sunglasses would work.

Where do you see those rules for minor illusion? Nowhere is that written to my knowledge, and I've done a lot of research on illusion spells as I play an Illusion Wizard. If you decide to rule that way in one of your games you make illusion spells practically useless across the board. If I make an illusory box, you can't see through it. That's the whole point. It appears to be there even though it's not. Which means you should also be able to make illusory darkness and/or shade inside that box.


And I wouldn't disregard a DM for ruling that sunglasses aren't good enough, but if they're doing it because of a curse that doesn't really make sense in fiction. It's because they live so deep underground that their eyes are so sensitive, like the Drow. Drizzt actually gets used to this over the years on the surface in fiction, so it could also be something that goes away with time. It still isn't comfortable for him, but it stops affecting him.

[DrowPiratRobrts]

Hot take: +2 rage damage isn't that much really

Certainly not as much as consistently gaining advantage on your attacks without negative side effects.

[Davrix]

Ok, first of all, minor illusion really doesn't do anything here. It's not real. Light passes through it like glass. It doesn't provide cover. I realize this makes no sense and you're free to disregard it, but this is technically how the thing works.

Secondly while it's perfectly justifable to say that sunglasses should solve sunlight sensitivity... you should only do this if your intent is to make kobolds the most overpowered race in the game. Advantage is, if you're not a barbarian, very hard to come by, particularly at range.

It's also perfectly justifiable to say that sunglasses do nothing, since the reaction of a kobold or drow to sunlight is more like a curse. Not saying it has to be that way, just saying that it's not clear whether or not sunglasses would work.


I'm with the other guy in saying that, nowhere in the rules does it state that but I can see your logic because the illusion wouldn't have mass to cast a shadow when you make it. Personally its one of those things you just need to let slide or your going to be one of those Dm's everyone gets paranoid around. Did i say I brought my water. Oh god i didn't say I brought my water. Oh god i didn't say the box had a shadow when i made the illusion.... Oh I'm screwed I forgot to mention I'm breathing right now. (It just sort of turns into that if you nit pick every little physics eye-roll DND makes)

As for your other part well let me break it down.


while it's perfectly justifable to say that sunglasses should solve sunlight sensitivity... you should only do this if your intent is to make kobolds the most overpowered race in the game. Advantage is, if you're not a barbarian, very hard to come by, particularly at range.

This is why I call it a joke as a racial downside from a pure rules standpoint. I'm a real life example of it. Not only are my eyes sensitive to the light but I'm part albino which means my skin burns SUPER easily. so being in the sun is BAD for me but all these are easily solved by sunglasses, hats and long sleeves or in dnd case robes.


It's also perfectly justifiable to say that sunglasses do nothing, since the reaction of a kobold or drow to sunlight is more like a curse. Not saying it has to be that way, just saying that it's not clear whether or not sunglasses would work

No its not justifiable by any means. Also you cant argue that illusions act with real world logic and then try to argue differently for this. Its not a curse, nowhere is it stated its a curse. They live in darkness so there bodies are simply not adapted well to bright light. And trying to say sunglasses wont work is throwing out any sense of logic.

[Theodoxus]

Minor illusion covers a 5 ft cube. In game terms, that's a single square. I'm the first to disparage bringing in real world physics into a game based on magical laws of nature - so it's all up to the specific DM anyway...

But if we were to assume that illusions, in order to fool senses, have to actually reflect and/or absorb light, then a parasol could provide shade sufficient to help with sunlight sensitivity - but only if the observer with SS were likewise shaded (indoors, under a canopy, etc) - and the opponent and illusory shade were both completely within the same square. A large or larger critter wouldn't be completely shaded, so simply for ease of adjudicating the GAME, I'd rule that it wouldn't help with SS.

But, as I noted, I hate using real world physics to explain the phantasmagorical, so I'd prefer, in this instance, to keep the gamist idea of SS as written; that sunlight is sunlight - whether natural or magically generated and that getting your or your opponent out of it should require more than a simple cantrip to overcome.

For Drow, it sucks - they're at genuine disadvantage - but they're elves, so F them. Kobolds at least still have access to pack tactics, provided an ally will get within 5 feet of their sunlit opponent... a normal hit, when you're used to nigh always on advantage feels like molasses, but it's really not that bad - just ask every other player who doesn't play a kobold how often a "regular" attack is crappy.


This is why I call it a joke as a racial downside from a pure rules standpoint. I'm a real life example of it. Not only are my eyes sensitive to the light but I'm part albino which means my skin burns SUPER easily. so being in the sun is BAD for me but all these are easily solved by sunglasses, hats and long sleeves or in dnd case robes.

Not to disparage your genetics, but you don't have darkvision. While you have a real world example of a type of sunlight sensitivity, it's not necessarily the same as that given to darkvision critters. Even your own example, it appears that if you're inside looking at someone outside standing in full sun, you're not bothered by it. That's different from the DND version of SS. So, I don't think simple sunglasses would help... outside of the kobold being in full sun shooting at a fully shaded opponent - that I would allow.

[DrowPiratRobrts]

Updated the guide to include all current Primal Paths. Next will be Multi-classing dips. Then feats.

[MagneticKitty]

how do sunglasses NOT help with this? I mean....

Ok Real life moment here. I have Oculocutaneous albinism which in short means My eyes lack the filter to deal with UV rays in the sun. (So real life sunlight sensitivity) If i don't have dark enough shades on that have UV lenses in them I cant see crap because I am squinting to much. Wearing sunglasses however even in Direct sunlight I can see just fine, throw in a hat and its even more golden on my vision.

So yes sunglasses WOULD help which is why I joke and say Sunlight sensitivity for any race is sort of a easy work around with just a bit of gold and going to a glass smith and Jeweler or blacksmith to make glasses or goggles with some dark colored lenses. Oh and even without the glasses wearing a hat helps a ton, maybe not in direct sunlight but if its daylight out and the sun isn't directly over me the hat works very well in letting me see normal.


Uhm, actually per sage advise sunlight sensitivity is not biological, but a curse. Sunglasses don't work. Note than bright light does not bother kobolds and drow only SUN light.

On eye anatomy:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/01/20/would-a-wildshaped-druid-still-suffer-from-sunlight-sensitivity/

On bright light vs sunlight:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/10/21/drow-sunlight-sensitivity-does-bright-light-from-torches-or-light-cantrip-cause-the-disadvantage/

[Davrix]

Uhm, actually per sage advise sunlight sensitivity is not biological, but a curse. Sunglasses don't work. Note than bright light does not bother kobolds and drow only SUN light.

On eye anatomy:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/01/20/would-a-wildshaped-druid-still-suffer-from-sunlight-sensitivity/

On bright light vs sunlight:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/10/21/drow-sunlight-sensitivity-does-bright-light-from-torches-or-light-cantrip-cause-the-disadvantage/

Not seeing where that says curse in the text anywhere

Not to mention maybe that's a thing for Drow but I don't see how its a kobold thing. They live underground so one would assume biologic in this case. As their eyes and bodies are not use to the sunlight which I think its only real difference between bright light and sunlight is the UV light it emits but someone correct me if I am wrong.

[DrowPiratRobrts]

Uhm, actually per sage advise sunlight sensitivity is not biological, but a curse. Sunglasses don't work. Note than bright light does not bother kobolds and drow only SUN light.

On eye anatomy:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/01/20/would-a-wildshaped-druid-still-suffer-from-sunlight-sensitivity/

On bright light vs sunlight:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/10/21/drow-sunlight-sensitivity-does-bright-light-from-torches-or-light-cantrip-cause-the-disadvantage/


Not seeing where that says curse in the text anywhere

Not to mention maybe that's a thing for Drow but I don't see how its a kobold thing. They live underground so one would assume biologic in this case. As their eyes and bodies are not use to the sunlight which I think its only real difference between bright light and sunlight is the UV light it emits but someone correct me if I am wrong.

Not to mention that in all the D&D/Wizards backed books from Salvatore that take place on Toril, it's biological. That reference from Sage Advice says it's usually more metaphysical in fantasy. So The Princess and the Goblin or something like that is being referred to in general. But we have over 20 specific books directly tied to the most common world for 5e that all say it's biological (Legend of Drizzt, Cleric Quintet, etc.).

So it's pretty tough to argue that outside of a DM using his creative freedom to make a curse that fell on the Underdark races that Sunlight Sensitivity is a curse. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I just can't find anything.

[MagneticKitty]

If sage advice said it's not biology what else would it be but a curse?
Any why would it apply to sunlight and not bright light if it was eye anatomy?
The traits are named the same, so normally we assume they behave the same. But you can live in denial if you wish.

[DrowPiratRobrts]

If sage advice said it's not biology what else would it be but a curse?
Any why would it apply to sunlight and not bright light if it was eye anatomy?
The traits are named the same, so normally we assume they behave the same. But you can live in denial if you wish.

The problem is that what you linked doesn't say it's not biological. Here's what Crawford said: "A racial trait works with Wild Shape unless a trait requires anatomy the beast form lacks. Sunlight Sensitivity requires sight."

Here he ties it directly to the beast's anatomy (i.e. biology).

And then he says: "Sensitivity to sunlight is a trope in fantasy, associated with creatures of darkness. It's usually more metaphysical than biological."

The operative words here are "a trope in fantasy," showing that he's not speaking about D&D but fantasy as a whole, and "usually more...than" showing that it isn't always one way or the other.

Additionally, metaphysical doesn't mean "not physical." It's a philosophical term based around the nature of being and the abstract concepts that come with existence. So it seems that Crawford is speaking to the fact that creatures with sunlight sensitivity in the broad spectrum of fantasy have because they just do. It's not tied to the biology of their eyes at times, it's tied to who they are. This can actually be seen in Drizzt's transformation through the series. As he becomes more virtuous, the sunlight becomes easier to bear. But this doesn't stop him from pulling a cowl over his head to make it easier for him to see (he does it all throughout the series). So in short, sunglasses shield your eyes from the sun no matter why they're sensitive (just like closing your eyes would). Haha, what a debate!

[Xihirli]

I think that since you're specifically tailoring to the Kobold you should put in a weapon guide, showing the weapons that best work as a Kobold.
Your guide makes frequent reference to "if you're using a two-handed weapon" and my response internally was always:
"If you're Small and DEX-based, you're not."

The highest damage from a DEX weapon is the rapier at a d8, and you'll have disadvantage with most two-handed weapons.

Also, in the Storm Aura feature you have Tundra and Sea down as nearly identical but they are very different. One does damage to an opponent, one gives temporary hp to you and your allies.

Path of the Zealot is red even when not a single feature in it is.

Divine Fury is the first creature you hit.

Fanatical Focus doesn't end your rage.

Zealous Presence is a Bonus Action.

Rage Beyond Dying feature: you don't die until your rage ends, and you die then only if you still have 0 hit points.
Which means any healing you get just before your rage ends, even after you have three failures or were damaged for your full hp during your rage beyond dying, keeps you alive.

[MagneticKitty]

The problem is that what you linked doesn't say it's not biological. Here's what Crawford said: "A racial trait works with Wild Shape unless a trait requires anatomy the beast form lacks. Sunlight Sensitivity requires sight."

Here he ties it directly to the beast's anatomy (i.e. biology).

And then he says: "Sensitivity to sunlight is a trope in fantasy, associated with creatures of darkness. It's usually more metaphysical than biological."

The operative words here are "a trope in fantasy," showing that he's not speaking about D&D but fantasy as a whole, and "usually more...than" showing that it isn't always one way or the other.

Additionally, metaphysical doesn't mean "not physical." It's a philosophical term based around the nature of being and the abstract concepts that come with existence. So it seems that Crawford is speaking to the fact that creatures with sunlight sensitivity in the broad spectrum of fantasy have because they just do. It's not tied to the biology of their eyes at times, it's tied to who they are. This can actually be seen in Drizzt's transformation through the series. As he becomes more virtuous, the sunlight becomes easier to bear. But this doesn't stop him from pulling a cowl over his head to make it easier for him to see (he does it all throughout the series). So in short, sunglasses shield your eyes from the sun no matter why they're sensitive (just like closing your eyes would). Haha, what a debate!


Oh wait you're right. It's not eye anatomy.. it's an allergy.
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/04/24/could-a-mask-help-with-drow-sunlight-sensitivity/
Thanks sage advice for clearing that up. -_-

[DrowPiratRobrts]

I think that since you're specifically tailoring to the Kobold you should put in a weapon guide, showing the weapons that best work as a Kobold.
Your guide makes frequent reference to "if you're using a two-handed weapon" and my response internally was always:
"If you're Small and DEX-based, you're not."

The highest damage from a DEX weapon is the rapier at a d8, and you'll have disadvantage with most two-handed weapons.

Also, in the Storm Aura feature you have Tundra and Sea down as nearly identical but they are very different. One does damage to an opponent, one gives temporary hp to you and your allies.

Path of the Zealot is red even when not a single feature in it is.

Divine Fury is the first creature you hit.

Fanatical Focus doesn't end your rage.

Zealous Presence is a Bonus Action.

Rage Beyond Dying feature: you don't die until your rage ends, and you die then only if you still have 0 hit points.
Which means any healing you get just before your rage ends, even after you have three failures or were damaged for your full hp during your rage beyond dying, keeps you alive.


I think for the corrections you've listed you were looking at the Wikia page rather than the UA PDF released by Wizards. That explains all the differences you've mentioned.

I am indeed going to cover different weapon types when I do fight styles (that's more of what I meant anyway, and I'll cover actual fighting styles in the Multi-class section).

Your last point about Rage Beyond Death is a good one, but I just think its so incredibly situational that even its raw power doesn't make up for it as a 14th level class feature compared to the others.

Ultimately this is why I rated Path of the Zealot as red. None of the abilities themselves are red, but they're all so situational that the entire subclass can't reasonably be useful when compared to the other subclasses you could choose. Note that this is just for the Kobold Dex Barb, but I think we'd be hard pressed to find an optimized Barb build at all that went for Zealot. As always, this is just my personal opinion on its value, so if someone else finds a great use for it, I'd love to hear about it.

[DrowPiratRobrts]

Oh wait you're right. It's not eye anatomy.. it's an allergy.
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/04/24/could-a-mask-help-with-drow-sunlight-sensitivity/
Thanks sage advice for clearing that up. -_-

Bahaha!!! I love this...they don't even know how to deal with their own stuff. So yeah, this makes me more comfortable going with Salvatore's treatment of the Underdark races in relation to the sun. He's consistent through over 20 books, and his explanation of how it all works is the most logical I've seen.

As always, DMs can rule however they want on SS. I think it needs to be clear from the outset how it will come into play though. For instance, my DM let me remove it in exchange for giving up my character's Drow Magic abilities. I think that's a fair trade off. So whatever each DM wants to establish in their fictional world seems to be at least plausible based on the data given.

[Theodoxus]

Has Salvatore written anything drow related for 5E? I only ask because each novel has to be read within the rules it was written to coincide with.

Light and Sight has changed a LOT in the last 40 years. Infravision and Ultravision, basically infrared and ultraviolet, allowed for different perceptions. Neither allowed you to read in the dark, but make out some shapes (ultra was better, as the ambient radiation outlined everything, where infra only designated differing heat signatures). Those morphed over editions to Low-Light and Dark vision, where low-light behaves like Darkvision does for Dim-Light, but did squat in total darkness. Darkvision then works like Darkvision now - black and white images in total darkness, but didn't help with Low-light (dim) areas.

I can kind of see why they combined Low Light and Darkvision; 5E is supposed to be the "simple version" - but I really wish they at least had optional rules in the DMG to split them back out. A lot of the basic problems with lighting in general would be eased with more granularity.

I keep meaning to make houserules regarding restoring Low-Light vision, but haven't gotten around to doing it.

I still think the best solution, RAW, is to rule that sunlight sensitivity is a gamist idea that promotes balance - for Drow, it offsets their 120' range (remember, Deep Gnomes aren't Core, so they're totally power creep - though arguing their balance vs Drow is another conversation). For kobolds, it offsets pack tactics (though given their draconic heritage, I'm not sure why they didn't get 120' range either - but hey, at least they got DV... poor Dragonborn...)

I am curious though, for Dritz't, when he pulls up his hood to help with his sensitivity, did he ever peer across the sundappled field to someone standing in full sun? Because as far as I can tell (still), nothing you wear or use will help with the disadvantage to see/attack someone in full sunlight, regardless of where the observer is.

[DnDegenerates]

We have a very capable Kobold barbarian in our Adventurer's league party.

He is now level 9.

He dumped strength upon creation and used rapier/shield until later.

He will eventually have 20 Dex and 20 con.

He has a belt of Giants Str that makes it 21.

He is a beast.

Throw a cloak of displacement on top of that. He is ridiculously durable.

What's crazier is that he has bracers of defense (+2ac)and flying boots as well.

[DrowPiratRobrts]

We have a very capable Kobold barbarian in our Adventurer's league party.

He is now level 9.

He dumped strength upon creation and used rapier/shield until later.

He will eventually have 20 Dex and 20 con.

He has a belt of Giants Str that makes it 21.

He is a beast.

Throw a cloak of displacement on top of that. He is ridiculously durable.

What's crazier is that he has bracers of defense (+2ac)and flying boots as well.

Minus the magic items, this is how it's supposed to go. What subclass did he go?

[Davrix]

Oh wait you're right. It's not eye anatomy.. it's an allergy.
https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/04/24/could-a-mask-help-with-drow-sunlight-sensitivity/
Thanks sage advice for clearing that up. -_-


One post says its not biological and now this one does. Once again they can't even make up there minds. I'm ok with using SA as a guideline most times but this is one of the cases where they havn't been clear and to the point on all their answers so I'm chucking this out the window and say its a Dm ruling in how they see it working in their world.

Also I really don't care for when people try to use SA as the iron clad ruling of this is how it works. Unless it goes in the errata its just there suggestion on how they see it, nothing more. Personally I disagree with it and maybe eye protection isn't enough but i think a heavy cloak with a hood and goggles might do the trick. But that's how I view it especially sense I can strongly relate to having the same condition myself.

[Nettlekid]

Sorry, why is a lot of the information in this guide entirely incorrect? Ancestral Protectors applies to the first creature you hit in a round, no bonus action required, and does nothing to speed. Spirit (not Ancestral) Shield reduces by Xd6, it doesn't bestow resistance. Consult the Spirits gives you Augury and Clairvoyance, not advantage on checks. Zealot's Divine Fury applies to the first attack you deal, not an area burst.

You...you made this guide using the Unearthed Arcana, didn't you? Not even the most recent version of the Unearthed Arcana, the FIRST version. Why would you do that? Xanathar's has been out for months now - these classes have all been updated and canonically printed. Why in the WORLD would you make a guide that doesn't use that information? It's entirely useless!

[DrowPiratRobrts]

Sorry, why is a lot of the information in this guide entirely incorrect? Ancestral Protectors applies to the first creature you hit in a round, no bonus action required, and does nothing to speed. Spirit (not Ancestral) Shield reduces by Xd6, it doesn't bestow resistance. Consult the Spirits gives you Augury and Clairvoyance, not advantage on checks. Zealot's Divine Fury applies to the first attack you deal, not an area burst.

You...you made this guide using the Unearthed Arcana, didn't you? Not even the most recent version of the Unearthed Arcana, the FIRST version. Why would you do that? Xanathar's has been out for months now - these classes have all been updated and canonically printed. Why in the WORLD would you make a guide that doesn't use that information? It's entirely useless!

You mad? Haha, I would thank you for pointing this out but you're acting like a tool. Or you don't realize that sarcasm doesn't really carry well over text. Anyway, I added those from UA because someone suggested I should. They still aren't as good as Totem Warrior for this build imo. Nevertheless, I'll correct the mistakes by using XGTE if you promise to be exceptionally kind to at least three strangers today.

[Nettlekid]

You mad? Haha, I would thank you for pointing this out but you're acting like a tool. Or you don't realize that sarcasm doesn't really carry well over text. Anyway, I added those from UA because someone suggested I should. They still aren't as good as Totem Warrior for this build imo. Nevertheless, I'll correct the mistakes by using XGTE if you promise to be exceptionally kind to at least three strangers today.

Listen. Stupid people don't deserve courtesy. Do a job and do it right, or don't expect people to be warm to your ignorance. Especially since you had the nerve to talk down to Xihirli for correcting you, suggesting that it was Xihirli who had their information wrong and drawn from the wiki. Dunning-Kruger Effect, much?

[DrowPiratRobrts]

Listen. Stupid people don't deserve courtesy. Do a job and do it right, or don't expect people to be warm to your ignorance. Especially since you had the nerve to talk down to Xihirli for correcting you, suggesting that it was Xihirli who had their information wrong and drawn from the wiki. Dunning-Kruger Effect, much?

Talking down? You mean when I said this?

"I think for the corrections you've listed you were looking at the Wikia page rather than the UA PDF released by Wizards. That explains all the differences you've mentioned.

I am indeed going to cover different weapon types when I do fight styles (that's more of what I meant anyway, and I'll cover actual fighting styles in the Multi-class section)."

I don't get how that's talking down. Note that I said "I think..." not "I know you were looking at Wikia..." To be fair, the UA and the Wikia are different, and the latter isn't always correct. Clearly the UA I used was outdated, but I would still trust UA over Wikia in general since it's actually WotC. It just turns out that this time they had updated those few subclasses in XGtE.

On the note of ignorance, I think we should all approach ignorance warmly and kindly. If you choose to do otherwise that's fine, but I think you'll find relationships and day-to-day interactions filled with more tension and strife than they have to be. Clearly I was misinformed, which shows my ignorance in this situation. That's not the same as stupidity, which is more akin to making a bad decision when you have all the information. And if you always treat "stupid people" with no courtesy I sincerely hope that changes some day and you realize that kindness is far better in the long run, even if it takes humility and patience.

[DrowPiratRobrts]

UPDATED: Changed the UA material for subclasses into the updated material from XGtE.