V's Gender Debate II [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

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Devils_Advocate

2005-09-18, 01:15 AM

Seeing as the original thread (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=comics;action=display;num=1090587560 ) is nearly 50 pages long, I thought it would be a good idea to start a new one. I hope that this isn't something only mods are supposed to do...

Anyway, a lot of the old thread was taken up by (a) people who understandably didn't want to read the whole thread posting things that had already been said several times before and (b) other people noting how annoying that was. :P Philip actually gave a good summary of almost all of the arguments made thus far on page 32, but of course the problem there is that people wouldn't read that far. I'm hoping that by starting this thread off with a summary of the collected evidence on the first page, maybe I can keep this thread from being quite so cluttered. So, starting with philip's summary:

General: "-us" suffix is common in male Roman names, therefore Male
Counter: V isn't Roman, why should Roman naming conventions apply?
Also, note that we've since seen evidence that real-world naming conventions may not apply in OOTS (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=209).

General: V is occasionally referred to, sometimes to hir face, as either male or female. S/he objects to neither.
See #9 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=9) #87 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=87) #111 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=111) #135 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=135) and possibly others.
Actually, it's only in front of V in #9 and #135; further, in the former V is still entranced and may not have heard Roy, and in the latter (s)he might not have been paying terribly close attention to the shopkeeper. Even if he noticed and is male, he might not bother correcting a stranger he'll likely never see again anyway.

Also, note that Rich has stated that this only reflects the characters perceptions (http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq10).

General: The bottom of V's body is square, like the male characters, not round like the female. Therefore Male
Counter: Rich has addressed this one directly, saying the robes s/he wears cover any distinguishing features. Plus, in #200 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=200), Miko was revealed to be female, and she also looks square with her robe (this may in fact be a reference to this argument).

General: Rich has been quoted referring to V as 'he', therefore Male
Counter: Rich is playing with us.
Also, when questioned about this, Rich has noted that the English language often uses the pronoun "he" when no gender is specifically known. In addition: this, and the general status of women as the "marked gender" may explain why Vaarsuvius is refered to as if he is male more often than as if she is female. (Side note: the fact that being female is often treated as an exceptional case, despite the fact that half of humanity is female, is just one illustration of how the English language is oh so very stupid. I blame the fact that it developed naturally instead of being designed. Note also how this linguistic convention reflects a cultural bias.)

#3 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=3): V is happily talking with Haley about her lime green Boots of Speed. Therefore Female
Counter: V may be "metrosexual", or otherwise care about fashion. Or s/he may be simply agreeing for the sake of discussion (as one would say "Uh-huh... Interesting." to a friend if they were talking about something you were not interested in)

#20 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=20): V's quote is rather macho. Therefore Male
Counter: Again with the gender stereotyping. V could be a macho female. I'm not even going to mention the stereotyped "proofs" anymore.
To give a broader impression of what philip is talking about here, I'll just say that people often say, essentially, "It's obvious from his/her behavior that V is (fe)male!" I think the simple fact that this argument is made by both sides of the debate rather clearly shows that it is flawed. :P Besides which, it may be unreasonable to expect elves to conform to human gender stereotypes.

Still, I'll address a few specific instances that have come up that have more specific counterpoints, in addition to the already noted danger of gender stereotyping:

Argument: No man would care about doilies (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=33).
Counterargument: V says "My preliminary inquest", suggested no preexisting knowledge; this was something (s)he researched at Roy's request. True, one could argue that most men wouldn't be willing do that, but one could also make the case that using a pastry decoration thingy to find ULTIMATE COSMIC POWER is kind of a "guy" response.

Argument: No self-respecting man would wear a circlet. That's so girly.
Counterargument: A mideivel fantasty land just might have different fashion standards than the ones you're familiar with, y'know. Plus, that could be an awesome Headband of Intellect, in which case V would likely wear it regardless of how it looks. In any case, it keeps his/her hair out of his/her eyes.

#25 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=25): V is covering hir eyes while Elan runs around naked, while Haley (later) admits to being interested. Therefore Male
Counter: V is highly sexually disciplined (which is reasonable, since s/he seems disciplined in most other respects). Or s/he doesn't swing that way.

#28 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=28): When Haley says V was interested in Elan's "weapon of choice", Roy and Belkar look shocked. Therefore Male.
Counter: It just shows Roy and Belkar think at this point that V is male. Belkar's "I always suspected" could be taken as "I always suspected V was gay" or "I always suspected V was female", either way as it was a misunderstanding anyways it is still unconfirmed suspicion. And in the latter case, it is just an example of even the characters not knowing V's gender.

#35 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=35): When Haley's top came undone, V was not watching excitedly with the rest of the group. Therefore Female
Counter: V may not have been nearby at the time to notice. Also, see #25
I'll just note that it seemed clear to me that Roy left V on lookout as he went to see what was up. In that case, V didn't see anything and had no chance to react in any fashion.

#43 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=43) and on: Zz'dtri is male, so should V. Therefore Male
Counter: Durkon is male and Hilgya is female - so this isn't a hard rule. And even if it was, V may be the exception.

#123 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=123): Haley asks V to share the room with her, while all the boys share the other room. Therefore, Female
Counter: She might just not have wanted the room to herself, and trusted V the most to not do unspeakable things to her at night.
Personally, I assumed that there were four beds to a room, so Haley had to choose someone to sleep with her. She might then reasonably choose V over the others even if she thought he were male. But maybe she just did not want to sleep alone. Or maybe she thinks V is, or might be, female. Regardless, this is another case that only speaks to someone's perception of V.

#123 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=123) again: When Haley shows V her gemstones, The rest of the group is not surprised by V"s comment that s/he has a set of hir own. Therefore Female
Counter: As well as the usual it-only-shows-their-perception claim, they may have been too enthralled in the imagining ("remembering"?) of a topless Haley to notice.

#152 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=152): V is shot in the chest with an arrow, and doesn't seem to mind that much. Therefore Male
Counter: While in real life such a shot would probably hurt a female more, I know of no such rule in D&D.

#154 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=154): V's familiar is male, but it was argued both ways what implications this has for V's gender.

#186 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=186): While V is nude behind the dragon's tail, you can see hir shoulder and the top section of hir chest - and it looks distinctly flat. Therefore Male
Counter: When Hilgya is shown nude in #83 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=83) you can see just as much of her chest and it looks flat also, while she definately is curvy while clothed. Also, V might be flat-chested.
Rich has also noted that, however consistant his style of drawin men and women might usually be, if he deliberately created an androgenous character, obviously he would bread his own rules. At best, one might conclude that V was not specifically designed as a woman.

Did I miss anything?

While I'm at it:
Instrip references to V's androgyny:
#87 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=87): V doesn't enter either the male or female restrooms.
#107 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=107): Belkar refers to V as "ambiguously-gendered"
#173 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=173): V is referred to as "sir or madam", and V uses the gender-inspecific "their" to refer to hirself.
#177 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=177): It is revealed that Belkar doesn't know V's gender either.
#186 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=186): V is shown nude, but concealed behind a dragon's tail.

Let me now further discuss the rest of the Order's and Rich's perceptions of Vaarsuvius's gender, and how they may have changed over time.

Several people have suggested that Rich at first designed V with a specific gender in mind. I think that V was first created as a male. That's how the rest of the party consistantly refers to him/her (on the rare occasions that they hint at V's gender), and it seems unlikely that Roy would call Vaarsuvius "V-Man" if he thought that V might be female. Now, granted, that only proves what they think, BUT: If Rich really wanted to confuse readers on the matter, it should have been less consistant. If one were only to go by what's in the strip, one might well have just concluded that he was male at least until Belkar's "ambiguously gendered" comment in #107 or even until the shopkeeper's use of "she" in #135. Even then, you'd think the people V travels with would know better than some stranger. One of the reasons it's so debatable here is because of Rich's comments on how this only demonstrates the characters' perceptions; I imagine that many people who only read the strip (I wonder how much of the readership that is?) think V is male. In particular, Roy's use of a male nick-name for V suggests to me that Rich hadn't decided to make V so ambiguous yet. And I think it was only after a question prompted by said nickname that Rich started with the obfuscation.

That's not to say, however, that V is really male. Rich could still reveal her to be a female within the strip, and it wouldn't contradict anything we've seen so far. And indeed, he might choose to do so at some point, having himself abandoned the idea of V as specifically male. Although he says he'll never tell.

As for the characters:

As I said, Roy's use of "V-Man" seems to indicate that Roy is convinced V is male, or at least sometimes forgets that he doesn't really know. It's possible that the others went along with this assessment, thinking that Roy maybe knew something they don't. However, Belkar, at least, seems to have his doubts about this: He checks V's reptilian anatomy in #177 to try to find out for sure. I wonder: does V-lizard realize that Belkar is trying to sex it (that sounds dirtier than it is), and thus that Belkar is uncertain of its sex?

Based on the fact that V is identified as both male and female by different people in the strip, we can conclude that (s)he does not look (by stick figure standards) or sound distinctly masculine or feminine.

Other things that have been mentioned many times:
Maybe V is a hermaphrodite/is asexual/is a enuch/changes genders spontaneously due to a bizarre magical incident.
What if V were to put on the Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity that Elan found? Maybe no one would even be able to tell the difference!

One more thing I'd like to note, because it hasn't been mentioned yet. V has been referred to as male by the other party members on several occasions. However:
Soon after Roy calls Vaarsuvius "V-man", V identifies a belt that changes the wearers gender.
In the strip before Elan calls V "he", V conveniently doesn't need to use the bathroom.
Belkar refers to Vaarsuvius as "ambiguously gendered" a few strips prior to using male pronouns to refer to V.

Now, that's just... well, as Jerry Seinfeld put it, "I'm not sure what it is, but it's somethin'."

Wow, this wound up really long. I may edit this a bit later.

Jothki

2005-09-18, 05:47 AM

If you've played Metroid, Samus Aran is female. Actually, in the first game's manual, Samus' gender was never stated. The only way to find out was to beat the game within certain time limits and completion percentages. Depending upon how well you did, she would take off her helmet or suit after the credits.

Beelzebub1111

2005-09-18, 06:53 AM

Good analogy Jothki

Anyways, I always thought that V was female, even since I read the first strip. I don't know why. Just instinct I guess. Could be because her attitude and mannerisms are very akin to a female elf wizard in my first D&D game. Not to mention that I cannot think of a male voice for V. Even if V is later revealed to be a male, the voice I hear will still be female. Simple as that.

Rawhide

2005-09-18, 09:35 AM

I would like to put my (completely not based in fact) vote in for female. For some reason, ever since the first strip I thought of V as female. It was only by reading the FAQ and later forums I discovered that this might not be the case...

Jukashi

2005-09-18, 10:32 AM

Ah, my first post. Surely, at some point, I will look back upon this day with nostalgia. Or possibly some other, more negative emotion.

I have read the entirety of the previous thread; no mean feat, but it leads me to believe I have formulated a decent theory... a theory hitherto only seen in brief flickers, glossed over in the heat of debate.

No conclusion has been reached on V's sex. If V was originally meant to be either, it is clear this has been subsumed under a cloud of ambiguity, and no longer applies. All arguments have been countered. V has been referenced as male, female, and "I don't know". V has not shown any objection to being referred to as either sex, despite seeming to be the kind of person who enjoys that kind of small triumph.

I pondered this, and then remembered the mutability of the kind of universe we're dealing with. This universe's state is not concrete, but instead formed by the DM.

Having recently read the Sequel to the Big Blue Book, one suggestion within it came to mind; that details are mutable in the face of what is best for the entertainment value of the game. As is written in the book, the journey to a dungeon from a town may have taken three days previously, but it is free to become shorter if the opportunity for an interesting chase scene between them appears.

So, my theory is thus; Varsuuvius is not male, and nor is the elf female. However, neither is the wizard both, or neither! Varsuuvius is male or female, or indeed any other sexual definition, as serves. In other words, the spellcaster's sex is plot morphic.

To explain; whichever is best for the story, whichever brings the most humour in a given situation; that is the sex, or lack thereof, which V, temporarily, is. If it serves the greater goal of humour for V to be female, then she is, as in the bedroom fiasco. If it's better for V's gender to be a mystery, as in the case of Belkar's inquisitiveness, then that's what s/he is in that case.

Now, to sit back and watch my arguments get shot down.

Leveller

2005-09-18, 10:56 AM

I'd like to add two points:

1. V-man. This might be Roy using a pun. Woman/V-man. Just a thought?

2. As someone said on page 4x in the old thread, maybe V just never checked the box for male female on it's chracter sheet? After all it did not name its familiar, remeber?

themunck

2005-09-18, 11:35 AM

hmf, "it"....anywaysjukashi is right.
through i see on v as a man, the voice i imagene for v is...my own reading voice. (not the voice when i read, the voice i hear in my brain when i read)

Seraph

2005-09-18, 12:34 PM

an interesting point to be raised is that Roy (and everyone else, for that matter) stops referring to V as "V-Man" after the dragon incident.

Leveller

2005-09-18, 02:49 PM

an interesting point to be raised is that Roy (and everyone else, for that matter) stops referring to V as "V-Man" after the dragon incident.

They only call him/her V-man once, in the ninth strip.

CharPixie

2005-09-18, 03:08 PM

Likely mentioned, but 'man' is rather gender neuitral nowadays; ala "hey, man" and "can you pass me some of that dragon, man? that's good guano" ; well, not evident from those examples, but I've seen it and used it to refer to any gender.

Solara

2005-09-18, 03:12 PM

Great job with the summary! Must have taken awhile. :)

I'm curious, does anyone know if the time when Roy stopped saying things like 'V-Man' and 'It's all you, dog!', etc. coincided with the time people first started asking questions about his/her gender on the forum? I still say he was originally intended to be male, by I agree with Jukashi that V's assumed gender is now being determined by whatever's funniest at the moment. Since that also seems to be Rich's policy on DnD rules, etc. it makes perfect sense to me. So far now I don't see any grounds for people to argue that he's definitely male or female, since that will be determined if/when Rich decides to tell us, and any "evidence" we get between now and then is just him toying with us. (Though I will probably continue to call V 'he', for convenience....referring to a person as 'it' is kind of dehumanizing, and things like 'hir' or whatever make it sound like I'm calling him a shemale or something. :D )

ref

2005-09-18, 05:11 PM

And we don't want to dehumanize (deelfize?) Vaarsuvius, lest we get one of her invoices!

btw, yes, I said 'her'. I started seeing V as female and I'll keep defending this although it's true that there isn't definite evidence for or against.

(although this is off-topic, I'd also defend that Belkar is not evil, although the apparently massive evidence that says it is.)

Leveller

2005-09-18, 05:42 PM

Nightmarenny

2005-09-18, 06:12 PM

No good shall come from this gender debate. However it sorta morbidly fun to watch so please get started ;D.

TimeWizard

2005-09-18, 06:32 PM

In the latin/fantasy naming system, -us almost always indicates being a male. It just doesn't seem like a girls name

Flak_Razorwill

2005-09-18, 07:24 PM

I'll bring out a horse again:

It's like Pat from SNL. You're not supposed to know. The fun comes from the debate, and whatever's implied can go both ways, forming a double entendre with either gender or orientation.

*Desert Island Castaway Pat Sketch (Paraphrased)*
Pat - "I'll never see my lipstick again!"
Fred Ward - "You have lipstick!?!?"
Pat - "Yeah, lipstick; that's my CAT! WAAHH!"
Fred Ward - "(Expletive Deleted)"

Lucca_Majere

2005-09-18, 09:14 PM

I just want to say one thing: You say "Well obviously in the early strips V was meant to be male." But many, many people, who started with those early strips, just assumed V was female, while reading those early strips, so this isn't a very convincing arguement. Now, I didn't come to the forums or FAQ until I read through the entire strip up to the 200's, and in my mind V was always female, there was never a doubt, despite her being called "V-man" and "dog" and some of the characters referring to her as male or ambiguous.

The_Shadow

2005-09-19, 04:29 AM

...But, as has been mentioned, this is completely inconclusive for anyone but you. Because many others, including myself, have likewise seen V as male from day one, without a doubt.

Rawhide

2005-09-19, 05:50 AM

A cat is penned up in a steel chamber, along with the following diabolical device (which must be secured against direct interference by the cat): in a Geiger counter there is a tiny bit of radioactive substance, so small that perhaps in the course of one hour one of the atoms decays, but also, with equal probability, perhaps none; if it happens, the counter tube discharges and through a relay releases a hammer which shatters a small flask of hydrocyanic acid.

Now tell me, without opening the box, is the cat alive or dead?

The cat is both alive and dead, at the same time.

http://www.mtnmath.com/faq/meas-qm-3.html
http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/0,,sid9_gci341236,00.html
Further reading: http://searchsmb.techtarget.com/sDefinition/0,,sid44_gci341263,00.html

I therefor state that V is both male and female, right up till the time that Rich decides to 'open the box', so to speak.

Nyrath

2005-09-19, 06:19 AM

There where some (in my mind)bastards who actually performed the experiment once. The cat was found hiding in the closet after the box had been sealed with it inside.

Rawhide

2005-09-19, 06:24 AM

What? You mean someone actually tried to perform this experiment? On a living cat? This is supposed to be a theoretical analogy/metaphor.

Nyrath

2005-09-19, 11:04 AM

Guess why I call them bastards. The cat apparently thought the same since it went from the sealed box into the closet through some obscure twist in the fabric of time and space, or something anyway.

Flak_Razorwill

2005-09-19, 11:36 AM

What? You mean someone actually tried to perform this experiment? On a living cat? This is supposed to be a theoretical analogy/metaphor.

I think Schrodinger created the analogy just to prove a point. More than likely though, someone has done it.

But how does a radioactive isotope's improbability have to do with V's gender?

Nyrath

2005-09-19, 11:40 AM

We won't know V's gender until "the box" is opened.

Jukashi

2005-09-19, 12:09 PM

What's... in... the box!?

Nyrath

2005-09-19, 12:14 PM

V's true gender. But I think that box is sealed with a force field and surrounded by a anti-magic field a hundreth of an inch away.

Flak_Razorwill

2005-09-19, 01:15 PM

V's true gender. But I think that box is sealed with a force field and surrounded by a anti-magic field a hundreth of an inch away.

So we're still at square one.

I still say this theory is pushing it. It's good at postulating isotope decay, but I doubt V's gender can be measured in the same way. Unless V's somehow measurably radioactive, in which case I'll never post here again.

Owie...

Lilly

2005-09-19, 02:00 PM

What's... in... the box!?

I be hearin' o' another version o' this quote once. It be: "(pertaining to schrodenger's cat)Upon opening the box you either have a cat that is dead, or bloody furious."

This post be a lot funnier in me head.

Nyrath

2005-09-19, 02:22 PM

Aah, you are familiar with Greebo I presume? The cat who ate a vampire when a bit pissed.

Lucca_Majere

2005-09-19, 02:23 PM

...But, as has been mentioned, this is completely inconclusive for anyone but you. Because many others, including myself, have likewise seen V as male from day one, without a doubt.

All I was saying was that, since people are on both sides of that exact same issue, there are NO strips in which V is obviously male or female. :P

Tzor

2005-09-19, 03:13 PM

Comparing V's gender to Schrodinger's cat is interesting in more ways than one.

Technically speaking the cat is supposed to be in an indeterminate state until "observed," but this notion in and of itself isn't very scientific. Can the cat itself he the obser forcing the condition even though no one else would know the answer?

That sounds odd, but when people start talking about the prime observer that caused the indeterminate state of the universe to become the state we observe ourselves to be today, can we be the cause of our own specific existance?

Likewise V's gender cannot be indeterminate, because while we do not know the state of V's gender, V knows the state of V's gender. :P

It's a shame the old dirt farmer isn't older, but I don't think anyone is alive anymore who remembers when elves were a "class." Most elves still know that they have class, just not that they were one.

The_Shadow

2005-09-19, 03:32 PM

Actually, the whole Schroedinger's Cat "paradox" is an artifact of the Copenhagen Interpretation of quantum mechanics, which is still often taught although it's philosophically bankrupt.

The actual equations of QM say nothing about observation or measurement or "collapse of the wavefunction". It's all in how you interpret.

My personal favorite replacement is the Transactional Interpretation, in which the Cat is always either alive or dead, just as you'd expect. (But at the price of signals between particles going backward in time! Hey, you gotta shove the weirdness SOMEWHERE! :) I can provide a link to a great article on it, if anyone's interested...

But the Cat remains fun to talk about at parties. ;)

As for V... The Transactional metaphor works for him/her too. The future revelation of V's gender (which may not actually happen!) reverberates backward in time to produce results in previous strips in proportion to how funny Rich believes those strips will be.

Jothki

2005-09-19, 10:34 PM

In fact, Schroedinger didn't believe in the Copenhagen Interpretation, and created the analogy to show how ridiculous the theory is.

Tzor

2005-09-20, 03:06 PM

Particles going "backward in time" is a novel idea behind a few particle/anti-particle theories and is one way to explain "evaporation" from black holes. (Virtual particle/anti-particle is created and the anti-particle is sucked into the black hole, leaving the particle, but one can also say that the anti-particle was realy a particle going backwards in time out of the black hole and thus the mass of the black hole is reduced by the weight of the particle.)

There is also a odd side theory that if basically states that the laws of physics can be broken if you can't get caught doing it. It's supposed to hand wave some reactions that take place at the sub-quantum level. I think several members of the OOTS would like this law of physics, although Roy would certanly object.

The_Shadow

2005-09-21, 12:21 PM

Getting back to V's gender...

Well, is #223 grist for the mill or what? :)

This helps resolve several of the "classic" arguments...

The fact that V is married is a strike against the hermaphrodite theory. (But not necessarily a disproof.) And it definitely means that the "asexual" theory is in dire danger. (I suppose one *could* have a purely Platonic 'marriage' of soulmates, but at that point one is really reaching.)

And it helps explain why Haley chose to room with V, even if he's male. She seems to know him the best of the group, so she may well already have known he was married. And thus preferable to any of the single guys, who have all been demonstrated to find her rather hot.

Of course, we don't know that V's mate is still alive. He is definitely frowning as he walks off-panel, so I wonder if something bad has happened...

idksocrates

2005-09-21, 12:47 PM

then again, it could be that V also suffers from the ill-matching that he was just speaking about. He sayst that the day he got married was the happiest day of his life, but makes no mention of the life since then.

And yes, I said he. I have viewed Varsuvius as male since strip one. Just instinct, he looks masculine to me (and I play elves, so I know how genderly inspecific some are).

chibibar

2005-09-21, 01:50 PM

heh.. the giant mention V is a he in V: married? here is a snippet of it

V is 106 years old, given in the Origin of PCs; which is, incidentally, too young for a wizard to have randomly rolled that age, even at first level.

First, it was 103, not 106.

Second, that's what V wrote down on his application to work with Roy. As in all things OOTS, that just means that's what he wrote down, not that it's what is actually true. Don't tell me you've never met anyone who lied about their age? Wink

mcc

2005-09-21, 01:55 PM

Then things get even more confusing when you ask the question, is same-sex marriage legal in Elf society?

Kalbereth

2005-09-21, 07:07 PM

Yes, but considering the strange stupidity of the english language, he is a pronoun used often when you're unsure.

How many of you actually thought Miko was a girl till her hood fell off?

Kish

2005-09-21, 07:34 PM

My girlfriend was certain of it as soon as she saw #120. I didn't really have an opinion either way, myself.

greatscott

2005-09-21, 08:21 PM

If V's interest in discussing / analyzing relationships ad nauseam doesn't settle the gender debate nothing will.

The elf is female ;D

GS

Buzzaro

2005-09-21, 08:34 PM

If V's interest in discussing / analyzing relationships ad nauseam doesn't settle the gender debate nothing will.

The elf is female ;D

GS

Let’s not forget...
Fact. V lied on the application to Roy; it said her age was 103 years old (see some post from Rich somewhere today)
Fact: V studied magic for over 90 years.
Fact: V was in dippers for 20 years.
Fact: Women are the ones that need to lie about their ages.
Therefore: She must be AT LEAST 110.
Therefore: She lied about her age,
Therefore: let it be resolved that V is F

Flak_Razorwill

2005-09-21, 09:35 PM

Let’s not forget...
Fact. V lied on the application to Roy; it said her age was 103 years old (see some post from Rich somewhere today)
Fact: V studied magic for over 90 years.
Fact: V was in dippers for 20 years.
Fact: Women are the ones that need to lie about their ages.
Therefore: She must be AT LEAST 110.
Therefore: She lied about her age,
Therefore: let it be resolved that V is F

Guys lie about their age to get beer(shhh...).

(Some guys who have problems wear diapers for a long time [elves? I'm not touching that with a 10 foot pole)])

Nightmarenny

2005-09-21, 10:13 PM

If V's interest in discussing / analyzing relationships ad nauseam doesn't settle the gender debate nothing will.

The elf is female ;D

GS
How about the lying about age thing?

Solara

2005-09-22, 01:51 AM

How do you know V lied about his age? The 110 year rule is pretty trivial, (20 years in diapers? And here I thought elves were smart...), and I don't see why Rich couldn't break it if he wanted too.

And all the newest arguments for female seem to be based on silly stereotypes, which I imagine Rich would have no problem breaking as well.

Sothicus

2005-09-22, 06:18 PM

Until I see conclusive evidence, I'm going with the idea that Rich is using the "all elves are pansies" stereotype and V is male.

Nightmarenny

2005-09-22, 09:49 PM

Solara

2005-09-22, 10:23 PM

Actually I think it was more like implying that V could have lied about his age, but just like the gender thing there's no way for anyone but V to know the truth, or at least that was my interpretation.

Second, that's what V wrote down on his application to work with Roy. As in all things OOTS, that just means that's what he wrote down, not that it's what is actually true. Don't tell me you've never met anyone who lied about their age?

Jades

2005-09-22, 11:03 PM

Its obvious. It really is. V is auytfhkoo, if you will forgive my abyssal.

Nightmarenny

2005-09-22, 11:58 PM

Grey Watcher

2005-09-23, 12:09 AM

Fact: Women are the ones that need to lie about their ages.

Then what the heck is Just For Men Hair Coloring for?

Also, you don't know many actors, do you? Acting majors in colleges practically include seminars on lying about your age. Younger, older, whatever's needed to get the part.

Haggis_McCrablice

2005-09-23, 12:51 AM

Perhaps he's got both sex organs like an earthworm...or one of those gender-switching frogs, and he and his kind alternate between male and female during lean times. Which begs the question: has he/she fathered/birthed children at some point? And what must they be like?

Gary_Schaper

2005-09-23, 02:08 PM

The new strip (#224) offers fresh fuel for the fire. Since Haley already knew that Vaarsuvius was married, she may have known that before they shared a room in #123. I'll claim that of all the choices to share a room with, Haley thought that a happily married man would be the least likely to behave in an inappropriate way.

sithninjapirate

2005-09-24, 02:52 PM

In OOTS #25-28, there are several references to V being male, he averts his eyes from naked charismatic Elan, and Belkar says something that relates to him thinking V is gay.

Edit:Sorry, this has all been referanced before. Ignore me.

stormsdotter

2005-09-24, 07:02 PM

After attending a panel with Rich at GenCon, I remember him commenting that his world was not Star Trek, where Elves are pointy-eared humans, Dwarves are shorter humans, etc.

Therefore, I can go with the theory that V is acting neither male nor female, since that's the sultural thing for him/her to do. Or, it could be that gender makes no difference in Elf society, so being addressed as the wrong gender does not bother V.

There is also the "all Elves are Bi" theory, from Wendy Pni's ElfQuest.

There's also the pont that in our society, it's better to address someone as a man if you're not sure what gender they are. Why? because if you call a woman a man, she'll correct you. If you call a man a woman, he might pick a fight with you.

It also helps that I am 5'9", have short hair, and am small-chested, so I am mistaken for a man alot. Since Episode I came out, my name hasn't helped either.

RandomNPC

2005-09-24, 07:09 PM

it may have been said before, but with all the new evidence either way we need to match it with all the other information to be sure on an absolute level.

has anyone given the theory that it doesnt matter if hailey knew v was married during the inn stay coz v might be a married female? or are all the "hailey knew a married guy wouldnt try anything" all for v bein a guy? seriously, what if v was a married female who left town to do some adventuring and guy elf wanted v to stay in town and do hose wife elf things? then v would frown when bringing up marrage, would be married, and would be a girl who stayed with hailey not a guy.

just tossin out a new theory. still undecided.

Gary_Schaper

2005-09-24, 10:39 PM

Oh, my mind was always made up that Vaarsuvius was male. I'm just making the evidence fit my theory, which is really all anyone can do.

Sylian

2005-09-25, 11:56 AM

V is male. http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=49

Mr. Zz'dtri. Mr.
He looks like V. So V is male.

Nightmarenny

2005-09-25, 12:44 PM

Read. The. FAQ. Before I start throwing chairs. >:(

SpaceCoyoteVega

2005-09-25, 11:40 PM

There are actually rules in the Thingy of Forbidden Carnal Something-or-other about transgender shamans, aren't there? Higher levels start getting secondary, then primary sexual characteristics associated with the opposite gender. Any reason s/he couldn't be one of those?

Leeroy

2005-09-26, 11:52 AM

Thingy of forbidden something? hehe u surely got your names right ;D. And Sylian, they all look the same. only hair (and bodies) makes them speciel, and if u made V bald He/She Whatever, would look like the others (if they were bald too)

Wrecan

2005-09-26, 04:42 PM

V is male. http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=49 Mr. Zz'dtri. Mr.
He looks like V. So V is male.

Or V uses the "male" pronoun as a default, as is appropriate in the English language. V may have no idea what gender Zz'dtri is and Zz'dtri didn't care enough to confirm or deny it.

mcc

2005-09-26, 09:35 PM

Three rooms. I room only with Miss Starshine.
Now I know the giant is toying with us... :O

Solara

2005-09-26, 10:33 PM

Well, it was Miko who said that the women would share a room with the "elf", (There's that word again... Grrr...) and we all know how V feels about her, so it's no surprise he didn't want her around, though it's already been established in previous comics he doesn't mind sharing a room with Haley. (No I have know idea what THAT may imply and I'm not getting into here...)

Funny how Miko seems to dislike V so strongly, yet she still has no problem sharing a room with him?

And as fuel for the fire in the gender debate, like most of the strips that contain "evidence" it could be interpreted both ways. Do women in general just feel safer around male elves (as opposed to male humans, dwarves, and murderous halflings) when it comes to sharing a room, does this have to do with V being married, or with V being female?

Also, she said "the women and the elf" not classifying V among "the women"...yet then again she always calls V "elf". So we're back to square one.

The Giant is cruel. :D

Toothy_Grin

2005-09-27, 12:25 AM

Funny how Miko seems to dislike V so strongly, yet she still has no problem sharing a room with him?

Well, Miko obviously also can't stand Haley, or any of them for that matter.

This comic may well be support for V being female, if Miko automatically puts V in with the women. Miko wouldn't know much of their backstory (i.e., their sleeping preferences) and thus would have little other reason for placing V with the females by default other than seeing her as clearly female.

Although she could have wrongly assumed V to be female....

DARNIT!!! :-/

Jades

2005-09-27, 12:27 AM

In this case, I don't think that "the elf" is a racist comment. I'm not all over the place on this, either. Much like "women" isn't a sexist slur. Now, if she had said "one for Roy, Elan, Belkar, and Durkon; and one for Haley, the elf, and myself" it would have.

Nightmarenny

2005-09-27, 12:49 AM

Devils_Advocate

2005-09-27, 02:08 AM

This comic may well be support for V being female, if Miko automatically puts V in with the women. Miko wouldn't know much of their backstory (i.e., their sleeping preferences) and thus would have little other reason for placing V with the females by default other than seeing her as clearly female.
Given her phrasing, I would think that Miko at least doesn't expect the innkeeper to clearly identify V as female. Otherwise, wouldn't she simply say "I require two rooms, one for the men, and one for the women"? And I don't think she would expect anyone else to be uncertain/mistaken about Vaarsuvius's gender if it seemed clear to her. If anything, she seems to be impicitly acknowledging V's androgeny.

Maybe she overheard that V was married and so thought it would be fine regardless. Or maybe elven males have a better reputation than their counterparts in other species?

Haggis_McCrablice

2005-09-27, 03:00 AM

--Haley wants to room with Vaarsuvius because he's (and I use that term loosely) the only one she really feels comfortable with in the group. She's probably worried about getting all giggly and girly with Elan, becasue she has a crush on him. Belkar is a little psycho; Roy obviously doesn't trust Haley and can be very brusque and judgemental of her lifestyle, and Durkon--well, maybe he snores, and, besides, he's got that freaky tree phobia. Ironically V may be the most normal and hangup-free of the lot.... ::)

phlip

2005-09-27, 12:37 PM

V is male. http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=49

Mr. Zz'dtri. Mr.
He looks like V. So V is male.

Yeah, because Hilgya is female, and so is Dur... wait. Seriously. This is even mentioned in the first post in this thread (you did read the first post in the thread, didn't you?).
Speaking of which, nice work there Devils, you spotted a bunch of stuff I missed.

However there's no reason to rely on a little "Mr" or a "He doesn't say much" - Zz'dtri is a Drizzt clone after all, of course he'll be male, since Drizzt is.

Leeroy

2005-09-27, 04:00 PM

However there's no reason to rely on a little "Mr" or a "He doesn't say much" - Zz'dtri is a Drizzt clone after all, of course he'll be male, since Drizzt is.
is he Drizzt clone? first of all, Drizzt (if were talking about the Forgotten Realms novels) CG and not Wizard... and as he says, its standard issue with the Scimitars (and almost all the Drow in Menzoberranzan whos fighters have Scimitars) so why is Zz'dtri Drizzt clone?

Kish

2005-09-27, 08:48 PM

::)

Try rearranging the letters "Zzdtri" a bit. I'm also curious as to what you'd say the reason is for the lawyers to have hauled Zz'dtri away.

(Btw: Since Zz'dtri was a wizard, a non-Drizzt-ripoff Zz'dtri would not have had a drow fighter's weapons anyway.)

Leeroy

2005-09-28, 03:41 AM

phlip

2005-09-28, 04:48 AM

Drizzt [...] CG
Nale also says in #44 that Zz'dtri is CG

Dorni

2005-09-29, 08:23 PM

Nale also says in #44 that Zz'dtri is CG

If you read it very carefully, he actually says no such thing. He says that the race is full of CG PCs, not that zzditri is CG.

Dark

2005-09-30, 07:25 AM

Actually he says that the whole species is now CG, which would include ZZ'dtri. But in any case he was probably lying :)

Snoring_Dragon

2005-10-01, 01:29 AM

Didn't it say that V had a husband ???

so wouldn't that make V famale unless he/she in a guy that likes other guys

Winged One

2005-10-01, 01:33 AM

No, only that he/she is married. Nobody said anything about the gender of V's mate.

Vaarsuvius_Prime

2005-10-01, 03:29 AM

Isn't "standard issue" a joke from somebody think drow and two scimitars are synonym?

Lilly

2005-10-11, 11:36 PM

Up, up, up, up the page you go!

Reyth

2005-10-11, 11:43 PM

Yes, I carefully read all references and I am sure V's gender has not been given away yet.

What's funny is that it didn't occur to me that it was in question until V was talking to the shopkeepers and refered to 'her' as female, when I had assumed V was male. Later I read the one about Belkar looking at the lizard anatomy, and the joke was revealed...

The FAQ section covers this too.

I really don't know. I am going to wait for it to be revealed.

evileeyore

2005-10-25, 07:51 AM

Over in the main thread the Giant said this:

The head is the same size, but OOTS females have their facial features lower down (both because of their hair and because it makes them look "cute"). If you look at Haley and Miko, they both have their eyes lower down on their head then Roy or Elan. For Female Roy, I copied the same positioning, even though she didn't have hair.

So I got to thinkin and thinkin leads to action...

So I present incontravertable evidence of V's Gender:

http://www.geocities.com/evileeyore/incontravertable.JPG

As you can clearly see the line bisecting the men's eyes is above V's, so thus V clearly cannot be a male.
As well the line bisecting the females eyes goes below V's, so thus clearly V cannot be a female.

Following this example of superior logic the choice is simple and obvious.

Wrecan

2005-10-25, 08:41 AM

Holy cow! So V is wearing one of those rare belts of masculinity/femininity that neuters the wearer. No wonder V has spents so much time away from his/her mate!

Nixie

2005-10-25, 05:42 PM

yes, but looking at Belkar, by your refrence, then he cannot be male, due to the fact that his eyes are above the 'male line', but still touches. Therefore making him in the same boat as V, neither.

BUT! we know Belkar is male. And his eyes are not ON the line (you left out Durkon BTW) but still touches.

So by your picture, and by your resoning, V is infact female. NOT neither and not male.

Bil123

2005-10-25, 05:49 PM

Someone said that since Zz'tdri is male than V must be, but how do we know that Zz'trdi is actually male.

evileeyore

2005-10-25, 06:04 PM

Anspruch

2005-10-25, 06:57 PM

We'll never know but I guess V is probably more female than male ... why should she sleep together with Haley and not the boys in one room? http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=123 (I hope this wasn't linked too often here, it's my first post and I haven't read the whole thread)

Slibs

2005-10-25, 07:22 PM

Because OOTS Elves aren't people in costume, they're a different species. A human and an elf rooming together would be along the lines of a human and a chimp rooming together.

evileeyore

2005-10-25, 07:51 PM

Because OOTS Elves aren't people in costume, they're a different species. A human and an elf rooming together would be along the lines of a human and a chimp rooming together.
???

Where didya get that notion? I mean ya ain't wrong persay, Elves and Humans are a re different species, but they are close enough to mate.

So the analogy is closer to Wolves and Dogs rooming together. Or Coyotes and Dogs, etc...

Devils_Advocate

2005-10-25, 08:42 PM

Ah, well... Belkar's head is slightly below the line. Sue me, but I'm not an artist, lining them up was rough.
I think that's in part because that image of Belkar's head is just slightly smaller than that of Roy's. If it were enlarged slightly and maybe moved up just a hair, I think they would line up almost perfectly. It's hard to tell with Haley and Miko, because of their hair. I'm pretty sure V's head is shown at least as small as Belkar's there, though; so, enlarging it and moving it up a smidgen in my head, it looks like V's eyes fall... right between the two lines. Huh.

That could be because of V's hair and circlet, or a deliberate compromise in design, or an androgynous elven trait, or some combination of those. It should be possible to figure out which, though. Who wants to line up Lirian and Dorukan from Serini's diary (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=196) with some other forward-facing, um, faces? Just looking at that, it looks to me like Dorukan's eyes are drawn lower than Soon's...

I myself noticed something in the monthly comic thread:

This phenomenon never ceases to amaze me. If a member of the Order of the Stick says something, the fan base immediately assumes it's factual. I know Rich too well and have played games where he DM's. The only thing you can assume, when a character says something, is that the character said that. You can't even assume that they believe it, because they could be lying.
That further calls into doubt the notion that we might infer Vaarsuvius's gender from how other characters refer to V. When Rich says their words only reflect their opinions, he's not (or at least, not just) messing with us. That's actually a part of how he tells stories.

Peace_Keeper

2005-10-25, 09:51 PM

Over in the main thread the Giant said this:

So I got to thinkin and thinkin leads to action...

So I present incontravertable evidence of V's Gender:

http://www.geocities.com/evileeyore/incontravertable.JPG

As you can clearly see the line bisecting the men's eyes is above V's, so thus V clearly cannot be a male.
As well the line bisecting the females eyes goes below V's, so thus clearly V cannot be a female.

Following this example of superior logic the choice is simple and obvious.

This may be a result of the picture you chose, however look again. V may be closer to the girls, however her/his are a bit higher then the other girls

Reyth

2005-10-25, 10:45 PM

Hmmm plus the guys are bald (or nearly bald). What about Elan, the only guy with hair? Maybe the eyes are lower just to make room on the face for hair.

evileeyore

2005-10-25, 11:58 PM

Good point, I'll try to get tehm all lined up tomorrow.

Now I go sleepy-sleppy.--EvilE

AtomicKitKat

2005-10-26, 01:42 AM

Heh, I was reminded of Vaarsuvius while watching Peacemaker(Kurogane), particularly this character (http://fanart.theotaku.com/imgs/thumbnails/92718-20050117173815.jpg). Okita Soji. If you've ever heard the Japanese voice actor for this character, you'd get a rough idea what V would sound like.

Edit, Re: The head issue.

Do what I did. Hit "Print Screen" on first panel of Strip #2, then decapitate all the characters. Draw a line under the bottom of the circles so that all heads are aligned. V's eyes are just a shade below Elan's but well above Haley's. I noticed V's head is roughly 1 pixel smaller than Elan's, so I cropped the head and bumped it up 5% in size. This brings V's eyes even more in line with Elan's, and further from Haley's. Note that any strip after #9 is "inconclusive", since that was about the time when the questions first arose and Rich started playing around with the idea of ambiguity.

Slibs

2005-10-26, 06:28 AM

I wonder how the Eyeball Level Test applies to the Xykon's Shadow Lackey? Given its predilection for thinking recipes are terrifying, could it indeed be Martha Stewart?

Kaintukee_Bob

2005-10-26, 09:14 AM

Today's (10/26) strip seems to indicate that Roy believes V to be female.

Or that he thinks the dwarf will think V is female.

It also casts doubts about V's ability to identify gender changes, which is odd considering elve's +2 to spot checks. They're normally good at noticing small details...

Unless she was so caught up with the small details that she failed to notice Roy's (not-really-so) Great Cleavage.

I just think it's worth noting that when it came down to the gender divide, V was once again grouped with the females. If V is actually male, he's a very feminine male. At least to the eyes of Roy (and presumably, the dwarf).

DeathQuaker

2005-10-26, 10:00 AM

V may LOOK feminine enough to join them, regardless of sex. After all, I am imagining that Roy is not the most feminine looking of women, even with the right parts. Maybe he's thinking the dwarf likes ambiguously gendered folk.

Which is really an insult to Haley. ;)

But most likely, Roy just wants spell backup.

Hence we're back at square one. :)

evileeyore

2005-10-26, 11:58 AM

Heh, I was reminded of Vaarsuvius while watching Peacemaker(Kurogane), particularly this character (http://fanart.theotaku.com/imgs/thumbnails/92718-20050117173815.jpg) Note that any strip after #9 is "inconclusive", since that was about the time when the questions first arose and Rich started playing around with the idea of ambiguity.I must disagree. I would say that every strip after #9 is more conclusive as this was when Rich began thinking about V and the ambiguity.

As for V and going to the Dwarf's room. Roy probably figures V in the robes/dress + ambiguity means the Dwarf isn't likely to notice until too late.

By then V will have unleashed Evan' Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion and its all over.

Dark

2005-10-26, 12:06 PM

By then V will have unleashed Evan' Spiked Tentacles of Forced Intrusion and its all over.

Ooo. That's... that's not right.

AtomicKitKat

2005-10-26, 12:26 PM

I must disagree. I would say that every strip after #9 is more conclusive as this was when Rich began thinking about V and the ambiguity.

What I meant was that after strip #9, Rich is deliberately trying to muddy the waters with regards to V's gender. Prior to that, V's gender was most likely masculine(The "Ah play w'zrds cos ah lak blowin' thin's up!" sort of player).

evileeyore

2005-10-26, 01:12 PM

Second verse same as the first:

Old OotS, Episode 2:

http://www.geocities.com/evileeyore/incontravertable2.JPG

Episode 224:

http://www.geocities.com/evileeyore/incontravertable3.JPG

As we can see V has always been of center from the men and the women.

[EDIT] And it seems I uploaded over my original pic on my sitre. Sigh... I'll have to see if I can fix that so the old try will still be here...

Beelzebub1111

2005-10-26, 01:27 PM

in the second strip V seemed closer to female than male. Now since the ambiguity and debate is at its peak, he moved it dead center

AtomicKitKat

2005-10-26, 01:44 PM

For whatever reason, your strip #2 and mine don't seem to match. Mine shows Elan's eye(the long one) to be no more than a few pixels higher than V's, with Haley's "long eye"(top part) overlapping 2 pixels with Elan's(bottom part).

As soon as I can figure out how to set Yahoo Photos to show it correctly, I will upload it.

Edit: Here (http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/sliver_queen0/detail?.dir=2234&.dnm=93b7.jpg) is my version of it. I used a green line to mark below the bottoms of their heads, so there was a slight tint when it saved to JPEG, but you should be able to see the one pixel lines I used to denote where the top and bottom of Elan's and Haley's eyes were.

evileeyore

2005-10-26, 01:47 PM

In all seriousness, I think it is V's coronet/circlet that moved V's eyes down in the first strips.

In all fan seriousness, V has, is, and ever shall be mysterious.

Devils_Advocate

2005-10-26, 04:54 PM

Never says anywhere that Lirian couldn't've been a Half-Elf, right?

Not only does her human blood give her free reign of favored classes, but she can wear the skimpy little belly shirt, too.
I hadn't thought of that. So full-blooded elves could still be as androgenous as V.

What can we make of V's reaction to Roy's transformation? Does V actually not realize Roy is a woman or just not think there's anything funny about that?

I'm betting that V is perfectly aware that Roy is female, but assumes that there is a good reason for it, and sees nothing particularly noteworthy about the situation.

After all, this is someone who manipulates the fabric of reality itself, a little gender-bending isn't going to be seen as all that significant to her.

Gender swapping? All in a day's observation for a manipulator of vast cosmic forces!

There exists psychological research that shows that people who conform heavily to gender stereotypes tend to notice gender more readily than people who do not. (They measure this by asking people to e.g., sort stuff, like a pile of clothes; one person might sort by gender first, another by colour or clothing type.)

So it makes perfect sense that V would consider gender less noteworthy than a disappearance of Roy's shiny bald dome. I bet V has spent time calculating its volume and area just for fun.

Also... even if Elves can look different, depending on gender, it seems likely that they all behave in a more androgynous manner. If this is the case, they would have fewer gender-based jokes, and a switch in gender would not even register as a comedic possibility. (Even if V is not amused by the mop, V might understand that it's the sort of thing less serious people find funny.)
So, maybe the differences between the elves' sexes are lesser, or of a completely different type, or just treated differently by elves, so V doesn't really grok human genders.

kit

2005-10-27, 02:53 PM

DeathQuaker

2005-10-27, 03:26 PM

A note on the Eyes Theory - Consider the fact that three out of four guys is bald, and the fourth appears to have a receding hairline. Durkon, who has the highest eyes, is not only bald, but has a great whopping beard taking up the lower half of his face. It is far more likely that V's eyes are located where they are solely based on the fact that she has hair, rather than anything to do with gender.

Except you're forgetting the whole reason why this eye-placement comparison started (quoted earlier in this thread): Rich Burlew stated that he specifically draws the OOTS females with their features lower down "both because of their hair and because it makes them look "cute" and furthermore
"For Female Roy, I copied the same positioning, even though she didn't have hair."

So while hair was A factor, it is not the only one and in fact he specifically drew Roy--when he was still bald--with his facial features lower down to indicate his sex change.

That Varsuuvius's features are more or less halfway between is probably not coincidental either.

AtomicKitKat

2005-10-27, 06:00 PM

That Varsuuvius's features are more or less halfway between is probably not coincidental either.

Except that as I tried to demonstrate above, this is not true in #2. V's eyes were in fact very similar in position to Elan's.

kit

2005-10-27, 06:48 PM

I stand corrected.

Indeed: http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a65/Jarametha/Untitled-1.png

DeathQuaker

2005-10-27, 07:03 PM

Except that as I tried to demonstrate above, this is not true in #2. V's eyes were in fact very similar in position to Elan's.

In someone's picture, V's eyes are probably closest to Elan's than anyone else's, but they are also visibly still lower down on the face (while still higher up on the face than Haley's); the line goes through the center of Elan's larger eye; it does not centrally bisect V's eyes.

[Edit: I just deleted the middle bit because I mistook someone else's diagram for your demonstration]

I came to OOTS late but I always thought V was supposed to be androgynous; my old gaming group always made jokes about "Elves being the same from front and behind" regardless of gender because they're supposed to be quite slender. So I thought Elven androgyneity was a common joke. I guess not. *shrug*

It's possible though that if V was originally supposed to have a gender, the Giant just drew her differently because Elves are supposed to have longer faces and/or different cheekbones.

(Yes, I say "her". Although honestly, even before I read the debate, I always imagined her voice as a man speaking in a falsetto. No kidding. ;) )

AtomicKitKat

2005-10-27, 07:57 PM

I figure V to have a soft-spoken, somewhat upper-class voice.

The_GrandMage

2005-10-28, 05:46 AM

...V's gender.
Well, let's take a look:
V and Zz'dtri look alike.
Xykon and Dorukan. Hmm.

Okay, I see. V's gender can't be discerned becuase of the annoying elvish quality of both sexes being built much the same, with the same basic size and shape of the human female. Added to this is the basic Wizard's garb, which hides all details.

What about Lirian, then? Let's look: Dorukan is the obvious Wizard of the party. Judging by her dress, and what's written in the diary, she's likely another magic-based class, but not a Wizard. It could be she's a Cleric, or Illusionist, or whatever. The book only says she knows to close whatever it is with a magical gate, not that she herself came up with the idea or can do magic. The wisdom of the Gods can be helpful.

All in all, I'd say V's gender is completely impossible to tell. Not an intellectual pursuit, I doubt if even V cares.

Hermes

2005-10-28, 02:28 PM

Surprised that no one has mentioned it yet...

In today's comic, there's a blue-haired elf in the common room where Elan is singing. And, I just felt it prudent to point out that, to me at least, that elf looks just as ambiguous as V does. Mayhaps he/she is the Giant's way of showing us the ambiguity of all elves in this particular setting?

Any thoughts?

Bil123

2005-10-28, 03:04 PM

How is Zz'trdi male?? I mean how can you be sure.

Hermes

2005-10-28, 04:01 PM

Well, you can't really. Unless he mentions himself being male, and I just don't recall that. But, to me he looks just as ambiguous as V or the blue-haired elf in today's strip.

Bil123

2005-10-28, 04:36 PM

I guess The Giant just isn't into the idea of Elves with genders.

Nixie

2005-10-28, 05:11 PM

Or just wants to have a person to make jokes about...

Belkar's Pointy-Eared, Purple-Haired, Ambigously-Gendered Pain-in-my-***.

Bil123

2005-10-28, 05:38 PM

Or he could just be trying to annoy us and have us start extreamly long threads that are debating the ideas.

Hermes

2005-10-28, 05:46 PM

Maybe in Rich's world all elves look ambiguous. Maybe we're never meant to know the gender of any elf in this little world that the Giant has created for the OotS to blunder in.

Here's a theory from left field. What if all elves are hermaphrodites?

phlip

2005-10-29, 12:52 AM

How is Zz'trdi male?? I mean how can you be sure.

He is referred to as "he" and "Mr. Zz'dtri" , though this means little given we usually discount such things with V. However Zz'dtri is a Drizzt clone, being a parody of all the other Drizzt clones around, and Zz'dtri is therefore likely male, as Drizzt is male. Plus, add the fact that there is evidence for Zz'dtri being male, and none for being female, as opposed to V where there is evidence both ways.

This is all discussed already, on and around Page 5.

The_GrandMage

2005-10-29, 02:18 AM

It doesn't matter what sex he is. WHat matters is the way he is dressed, and how Durokan is dressed, and the lich is dressed. The old non-updated-fied loving wizard was a cloak away from looking like the rest, and the lich was the headband away. Their sexes are obvious though.

But they are not elves. All elves are relatively feminine anyway, whcih means the reason we can't tell is because of the race-class combination.

Therefore, we will never know. Never know.

Hermes

2005-10-29, 03:25 AM

Whether we ever really know or not is up to Giant. But it doesn't hurt to try and figure it out. I mean, we're basically over-analyzing this- yes. But we're having fun, and providing each other with some good entertainment between episodes of OotS.

Where's the harm?

Asmodeus

2005-10-29, 12:40 PM

May I point you to Exhibit A http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=9

Roy refers to Varsuvius in the Masculine "V-Man".

Found it while looking for the origin of the gender-bender belt.

Nixie

2005-10-29, 02:25 PM

This subject has already been debated, people always say "Hey guys" even is the 'guys' are girls. Also, Roy could just believe that V is a guy.

Peace_Keeper

2005-10-29, 04:09 PM

Asmodeus

2005-10-29, 04:43 PM

I hang my head in shame. Oh well.

Jades

2005-10-29, 05:47 PM

We could always ask Mr. Owl.

*walks over to Mr. Owl, who is shaking on a sugar high*

Mr. Owl, what is Vaarsuvius gender?

Mr. Owl: One, Two, Three! *crunch* Three.

Ok... that's useless. I guess I'll talk to the Man in the Moon.

Sir, will we figure out soon?

MitM: I don't know a thing about love. I just kinda hang here above...

*walks away*

Yep, we'll never know.

Nixie

2005-10-29, 06:42 PM

I suppose so, but it's an endless game of prove whos wrong...

Kulatu

2005-10-31, 06:05 PM

I still say that V is both male AND female.

The_GrandMage

2005-10-31, 07:31 PM

evileeyore

2005-10-31, 08:09 PM

And I say that V is NEITHER male nor female, having used some high-level but usually useless spell to ensure that close proximity with fellow adventurers over death-defying adventures would not create false emotions that could endanger the marriage.
Or interfere with pursuit of Total Cosmic Power.

Maybe thats why V left. Maybe V's mate would never let V have a moments peace and it was all "Hey, baby lets go make more little elflings."

If I were in pursuit of the Power Cosmic I'd take a long weekend away too.

The_GrandMage

2005-10-31, 08:35 PM

Actually, it's just that all the really powerful reality-bending spells are kept in arcane tomes littered about the world.

Those who have such power like to test the hopefuls. Make them understand magic-users need someone to watch their backs. Humble them a little, make them face death, wander around the world a few years. Let them see magic in action, see what they can come up with on their own.

Gives time for the background check to clear.

Jahannan

2005-10-31, 11:14 PM

New evidence in the latest comic for the female side. The last panel is obviously a homage/parody/ripoff of Charlie's Angels, and V (rather than Miko) is filling the role of 3rd girl. Not that I actually think this proves anything whatsoever, or in fact that we'll ever know V's gender. But hey, more fuel for the fire.

Hyro

2005-11-01, 12:31 AM

Jades

2005-11-01, 01:00 AM

Crappy initiative score. Next time you hit a feat level, I'd suggest taking Improved Initiative, and then next one take Superior Initiative.

Cymraegmorgan

2005-11-01, 04:19 AM

I vote male.

Slibs

2005-11-01, 07:33 AM

Maybe V is a Gloranthan style elf and more of a plant than an animal.

Geech000

2005-11-01, 12:00 PM

Maybe V is a Gloranthan style elf and more of a plant than an animal.

Interesting idea. Only real hole I find in it is the fact that V is married. Of course it is possible for plants to get married, but I doubt that is the case.

I vote male, knowing that I shall never know the true answer and so make one up for myself.

Slibs

2005-11-01, 01:29 PM

Mayhap V was married to Bumblebee Man.

Beelzebub1111

2005-11-01, 06:36 PM

I always thought V was a girl, V will always be a girl in my mind.

Venom91

2005-11-01, 06:40 PM

i bet V's husband/wife is not known to be a male or a female.

Reyth

2005-11-01, 06:45 PM

You know, there was a study done once having adults interact with young babies. In the test case, the adults were not told the baby's gender. While the other adults talked to and about their babies normally, the adults with the unknown gender baby could not do anything but try to guess its gender, everyone providing evidence by the way it behaved. The adults simply could not interact with it without knowing which it was. It bothered everyone so much they could not talk about anything else.

It just goes to show that a lot of human interaction is referenced by gender. Take it away and we don't know what to do or how to act.

Babies are androgynous, and so is V.

Hence the obsession ;)

Peace_Keeper

2005-11-02, 12:44 AM

I bet, they'll never meet up with V's husband/wife.

I vote V female.

Omniplex

2005-11-02, 02:45 AM

If there's a vote, I'm a vote for female. I think V's a she. Have assumed so since the beginning, if for no other reason than for the sake of party diversity, and her long hair. And for her husband, I think either he will be ambiguous as well, or he will be flamboyant, but obviously male. And possibly homosexual. Actually, that would be to politically incorect (and steriotypes might work differently in the comic's world). So, yeah, the mate will be ambiguous or unseen. Or, Rich will just reveal V's gender.

Edna

2005-11-02, 03:02 AM

Possible spoiler for Origin of PCs below:

On the page where Vaarsuvius submits his/her application form to Roy, a large ink blot has covered up his/her gender. Peeking out from the bottom left corner of the blot is a vertical line, which could presumably be the left side of either an "M" or "F." If you look carefully at all of the other entries on the application, they are (except for the last line), neatly centered in the space provided. If you imagine the vertical line as part of an "M" (with the right side under the blot), it will be an off-center "M," whereas if you imagine it as an "F," it will be centered like the other entries.

Not a definitive answer, by any means, but I've always thought of V as female, anyway :-)

Edna

Jades

2005-11-02, 03:03 AM

I'm going to say that V is male.

Lasombra

2005-11-02, 08:55 AM

female, just 'cause it would balance the party more to have another female in it. otherwise haely would be the only one (she wouldnt mind though, she likes it like that) ;D

Ilover_Juventad

2005-11-02, 09:32 AM

Ich wähle Frau. (Handy German translators! ;D)

I vote female...

-IJ

Iuris

2005-11-02, 09:34 AM

Personally, I've considered Varsuvius a male from square one, probably because of his name (I know latin, so default was set immediately). Also, his personality feels masculine.

The main confusing element here is that Vasruvius is actually rather well mannered, non-prejudiced and similar - rather more of a modern man. That's why he's so close to Haley.

Legomore

2005-11-03, 10:15 AM

I vote that V is a man. But can't wait to see if they reviel it ;D

Nixie

2005-11-03, 03:48 PM

*laughs*

Okay... well i think V's a girl, cause you know.. i don't think Haley would room with a guy... and i really don't want to think about the other options besides male. Or the other option for males.

Weiser_Cain

2005-11-03, 04:33 PM

Bil123

2005-11-03, 04:51 PM

octopod

2005-11-03, 05:54 PM

Well, as regards that last one, based on the exact same reasoning from my POV I'd come up with an unequivocal "V is male"...so that rationale's got the same problem as all the others.

It's pretty funny, though, to see how much people really seem to need to know everyone's sex...I think someone mentioned the "baby of unknown sex" experiment? Definitely applicable.

(In my own experience, they even have trouble with a character whose sex isn't the same as the player's. Odd, that.)

Samiam303

2005-11-03, 09:05 PM

I'd like it if V were female, as I always tend to like females more than males but I think it's a he due to the recently noticed slip by rich.
http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=comics;action=display;num=1105422121 ;start=200#200

Um... did you read his other post like three posts down?

I'm saying that the English language often uses "he" for the pronoun when no gender is specifically known.

Amalthea

2005-11-04, 12:39 PM

I think V is more of a Female because of the fact he seems so annoyed that it took him ten years to get his first level while Elan got it so easily, (As I know a girl who was so mad at me because I got better grades than her and I don't try.)
Well, I think V is male, because I got better grades in college than my husband without really trying, and it really annoyed him.
:P

Weiser_Cain

2005-11-04, 04:30 PM

Um... did you read his other post like three posts down?

Yah, it's called backpedaling.

triffid

2005-11-04, 04:39 PM

Yah, it's called backpedaling.

Yeah, sure. ::) Your argument is sooooo convincing.

bananna

2005-11-04, 09:37 PM

Hmm.... recent comics have me a bit more sure that V is male, since he has no idea what Haley is talking about while she's teasing Regina, and come on - how thick, or male, do you have to be to not get those references?

Zargon

2005-11-05, 03:30 AM

Pagan

2005-11-05, 08:30 AM

I've always though of V as male.
His "clone" in the Linear Guild was a rip off of a certain dark elf (the spooky lawyer took care of him).
http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=65
V is drawn the same way.
And I don't recall exactly which comic, but there was another elf like character, a female elf? that looked very female.
Of course Rich won't tell us. But look how he draws all females. Then look at V.

1. Durkon's twin is a female.

2. They all look the same.

3. That doesn't mean V has to look masculine/feminine like her, besides, that Elf (Lirian) is not wearing a robe.

Hmm.... recent comics have me a bit more sure that V is male, since he has no idea what Haley is talking about while she's teasing Regina, and come on - how thick, or male, do you have to be to not get those references?

Maybe elven women don't have periods, or V didn't receive education on that subject?

The_GrandMage

2005-11-05, 11:40 AM

Yah, it's called backpedaling.

Actually, it's not. When the English language went from Old English to Middle English, we dropped the male-gendered pronouns. Words like He, His, and Man were non-gender-specific. Therefore, what many consider today to be "male-specific" pronouns are actually non-gender-specific pronouns who only mean male given context.

In order for it to be backpedalling, he'd have to withdraw from a position or attitude. He was merely pointing out one of the flaws of contemporary English because not everyone knows about it. That's a clarification of a stance.

Jehnn

2005-11-05, 05:04 PM

V is undoubtedly male. A bit feminine, yes, but a male.

Zargon

2005-11-06, 12:31 AM

Durkon's twin is drawn the same?!? We're talking about Hilgya, right?
You sure about that?
http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=74
I see boobies!

Nixie

2005-11-08, 03:54 PM

Just b/c The LG ripoff is a guy, doesn't meant that V is a guy. As we can see, Hilgya is a female while Durkon is male.

[Edit] Adjusted to make more sense

Hoseki

2005-11-08, 06:16 PM

V is undoubtedly male. A bit feminine, yes, but a male.

This isn't a poll, it's a debate. I'd like to see some hard evidence to support this.

V has been female since the begining of the comic for me. Something about the way she acts, the way I like her and hate boys, the way she interacts with the rest of the party- it screams 'female'. However, I would still think of her as a her even if The Giant revealed her to be a him. So I'm biased.

Peace_Keeper

2005-11-09, 02:00 AM

Well one things for sure, shes only half-elf (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=87)

Hermes

2005-11-09, 11:45 AM

Well one things for sure, shes only half-elf (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=87)

I'm unclear as to how this proves that V is only half-elf... It certainly doesn't prove him to be half-camel, as Elan is an idiot. Here's to hopin' you were just makin' a joke! ;)

mikemouse42

2005-11-09, 11:18 PM

ok, heregoes

i have always thought of V as a male, just a thing about elven wizards being male, and elven sorceror (esses) being female( and always heard the voice of one of my teachers from school).

also i am a very logical person, and i tend to talk a bit like V at times, and i don't know (haven't heard of) any logical females, before in my life so there's another point...

also the females in my programming class aren't all that logical either, they tend to group together with a couple of males for group assignments and end up designing the interface and cleaning the code up - "so it looks pretty" (my friend holly on our first assign)

keeping in mind that this is opinion, not educated debate i would have to call on the age-old saying

"beauty is in the eye of he who see's it" (gender inspecific he in there)

[EDIT] Just had another idea, maybe V is a Construct?? like an experimental construct that was testing the capabilities of personality and emotion (but the creator forgot that gender is a factor)??

The Prince of Cats

2005-11-10, 05:33 AM

"beauty is in the eye of he who see's it"
Don't you mean "Beauty is in the eye of the floating eye?"

triffid

2005-11-10, 06:34 AM

ok, heregoes
(snip)

Well, I think you've established fairly comprehensively that V is not taking the same programming class as you are (if any).

...Congratulations?

phlip

2005-11-10, 10:04 AM

Beauty is in the eye of that evil wizard dude who cast a spell that stole all the beautiful people and trapped them inside a giant eyeball.

Cause you know, evil wizards do stuff like that.

[/offtopic]

Annalia

2005-11-12, 09:21 PM

Well everyone, I came across something interesting...

On this page ( http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=comics;action=display;num=1131809309 ) The Giant answers a question about metric use in The Origin of the PCs. At the end, he clearly use HE to identify V.
It struck me since I always think of V as a female but what do you think about it?

Tarlonniel

2005-11-12, 10:41 PM

See the first post of this thread; specifically, third quote and subsequent response.

Kish

2005-11-13, 05:10 AM

also i am a very logical person, [...] and i don't know (haven't heard of) any logical females
::) ::) ::)

Hm, do I say something about how horrifically offensive this is, or just point out the inherently contradictory nature of this sentence?

Arian

2005-11-13, 07:06 AM

I thought about responding, and decided that such a sterling piece of illogic would be far stronger if simply left to speak for itself.

I did enjoy triffid's comment. :D

Rawhide

2005-11-13, 07:31 AM

also i am a very logical person, and i tend to talk a bit like V at times, and i don't know (haven't heard of) any logical females, before in my life so there's another point...
Can I just add my two cents by saying that it is highly illogical to base an argument on one's own, extremely limited, experiences...

Stereotypes are that women are more emotional and intuitive while men are more logical and spacial. Due to the differences in brain chemistry this is to the most part true, as a general rule, as always there are variations based on genetics, culture, upbringing and personal dedication/training (correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the highest IQ on record was a woman? No easy feat as IQ tests were designed by men around the male way of thinking). Additionally, women are, on the whole, generally much better at multi-tasking (women take note, never leave a man in charge of a baby!).

Grace Hopper (1906-1992) was one of the first programmers to transform large digital computers from oversized calculators into relatively intelligent machines capable of understanding "human" instructions. Hopper developed a common language with which computers could communicate called Common Business-Oriented Language or COBOL, now the most widely used computer business language in the world. In addition to many other firsts, Hopper was the first woman to graduate from Yale University with a Ph.D. in Mathematics, and in 1985, was the first woman ever to reach the rank of admiral in the US Navy. Hopper’s work was never patented; her contributions were made before computer software technology was even considered a "patentable" field.Source: http://inventors.about.com/library/inventors/blkidprimer6_12w2.htm

There are many other famous female inventors, scientists and mathematicians, just do a google search.

Prejudices are great, because they enable us to have an opinion without any of the facts.

blackfox

2005-11-13, 10:56 AM

Marilyn von Savant had the highest tested IQ. I think she tested 228 as a child and slightly lower as an adult.
Although there are more male geniuses on record than female geniuses, there are more male idiots on record than female idiots. (I'm not just going by the Darwin awards, this is what the statistics show.) There are many more women with average IQ then there are men with average IQ

And women are better at multi-tasking in general. I am actually multitasking right now. I'm supposed to be typing up quotes from White Fang about White Fang's need for love/belonging for my English class. I regularly post on these message boards while I am doing my English homework. It seems to help me, I have pulled my grade up 6 points since September.
Although many boys in my classes say they multi-task, it usually amounts to listening to music and/or playing with their dog and/or watching TV and/or instant-messaging people while doing their homework. They're the ones with C's and D's...

It's really too bad there are only about 30 female Nobel prize winners, it would help me prove my point.

Scrubbing bubbles! (I really need a new mod edit)

Aww, but I like scrubbing bubbles!

Lilly

2005-11-13, 12:40 PM

The Fairy Modmother: Okay y'all, the point has been made and now we're not discussing how women are at least as logical if not more logical than men. This is about V's gender, and the current discussion is off topic.

Xilehxt

2005-11-14, 01:59 AM

Amalthea

2005-11-14, 12:16 PM

http://img118.echo.cx/img118/4161/erk5hw.gif

This is Erk, from Fire Emblem. Look sorta similar? Yeah, purple hair, fair skin, red robe. No circlet though.

Although it is true that Fire Emblem has alot of male characters that look female (Lucius anyone?) Erk here is male, and his striking resemblence with V makes me want to say that V is male.

However, my first impression of V was female, and until I thought of Erk here, V was always female in my mind. So he a male who acts very female?
What is so very interesting about the whole argument over V's gender is how an argument is inherently linked to the argue-er's perceptions and experiences.
You can actually see people who use the same piece of 'evidence' to argue both points. It's quite humorous.

Xilehxt

2005-11-14, 03:21 PM

Did someone already use Erk as an example? The post is so long, I just posted it up. Sorry if it's repeating.

Beelzebub1111

2005-11-16, 01:30 AM

no, but you admited yourself that Erk looks like a chick at first. (Which I can totaly see) So the argument is moot

Amalthea

2005-11-16, 11:38 AM

no, but you admited yourself that Erk looks like a chick at first. (Which I can totaly see) So the argument is moot
That's the fun part - all the arguments in this thread are moot. We won't know V's gender until when and if Mr. Burlew specifically reveals it. Until then, he's going to enjoy yanking everyone's chains.

What we DO know is the the following:
1. The majority of the party doesn't know V's gender. Haley might, the rest are clueless.
2. Roy thinks V can pass for female in a pinch. Whether he actually thinks V is female is unknown.
3. Elves have genders. (proof: Lirian in #196) While some arguments were made that she is a half-elf, her elf parent would still be required to have a gender and the appropriate anatomy in order to produce a half elf offspring.

That's about it. The rest is perception.

Xilehxt

2005-11-17, 02:10 AM

No, that's not waht I meant and yes I agree that this argument means nothing. But in my perception, Erk was a male all the time, I just wanted to point out that they look really alike.

However, ever since I started reading OotS, I have always thought V was a female, until Belkar's comment about ambigous genderism. Wouldn't taking a vote reveal what V's first impression help in guessing at her gender?

Kish

2005-11-17, 02:44 AM

No. Because, as far as determining Vaarsuvius' actual gender (if s/he has one), it doesn't matter what anyone but Rich Burlew thinks Vaarsuvius' gender is.

Amalthea

2005-11-17, 11:41 AM

No. Because, as far as determining Vaarsuvius' actual gender (if s/he has one), it doesn't matter what anyone but Rich Burlew thinks Vaarsuvius' gender is.
Exactly.

My opinion is that V is male. While I admit my evidence is perception based, I also don't think it's been brought up yet.

I have observed that Haley does not seem get along well with other young women. There have been 4 major ones: Sabine "she's wearing red leather" (#45), the barmaid who wanted tips (Referenced in #46), Samantha (#160+), and Miko (since #200).

Granted, she hasn't interacted with any other young women in the comic. (I don't have the books.) She was too busy fighting with Sabine to interact with the Sylph the first time, and the second time she asks Roy if they can trust her. She never really interacted with Hilgya, either. The rest of the time she's got a 50/50 record on her opinion of the woman being accurate.

I'm getting to V's gender, I promise. My point is that Haley seems automatically suspicious and/or dislikes other women. She reminds me very strongly of Scarlet O'Hara (who couldn't stand other women, period, and viewed even her own sisters as competitors.)

But Haley gets along just fine with V. And that pushes me towards V being male.

Big_Jake

2005-11-17, 12:03 PM

I think that the naming mechanism is a poor way to judge gender. Consider the following names:

Kelly
Robin
Casey
Scout
Kimball
Shannon

I've known men and women with these names.

Tarlonniel

2005-11-17, 12:09 PM

Seems to me that Haley had perfectly good reasons for disliking all four of the above women - two were evil, one is a jerk, and the last demanded money ;)

dragonfly83h

2005-11-18, 11:22 AM

Well one things for sure, shes only half-elf (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=87)

What makes you think (s)he is not a full elf? Explaination, please?

Kalai_Eljahn

2005-11-18, 11:41 AM

What makes you think (s)he is not a full elf? Explaination, please?

She's half camel. ;)

When reading this, Vaarsuvius severely reminded me of myself with a slightly lower charisma, so I will think of her as female until either of us is proven male.

Just my not very useful thoughs.

kimana

2005-11-21, 02:37 AM

Well, my first reaction was that V is female, but there is more to it than that...
In my stories I have a species with gender so ambiguous that they divide the world into "has borne children" and "has not borne children" if at all. Possibly because I am female, I caught myself making almost all members of this species that I used as characters be referred to as "she" unless noting otherwise mattered (e.g. marriage). As such, if I see V as "female" then it is more likely an extension of this than of her actually seeming female. :P As such, I argue that for V it doesn't matter. ;) Also, it's possible that for elves the gender system works differently as far as physique and social norms that we can't even say that V is male or female at all.

As for Haley rooming with V, elves don't really sleep and V is pretty sane so Haley probably doesn't care...elves are built differently, V is married, and they aren't sleeping in the same room technically, and it beats sleeping alone. I haven't seen Haley obviously sleeping away from the party when not in an inn, so she may not mind sleeping with a sane male, even if V is male.

(to make it more fun, my character kimana appears very female, but is actually totally genderless, so she's kinda an anti-V...not that any of you really cared to know that)

WeaponMasterLDO

2005-11-23, 06:01 PM

I've always thought of V as a female, it wasn't until I read the FAQ that I realized there could be a question about it. My reasoning is that if Rich had a 4:1 male ratio he would get attacked by Mr Rodriguez. And we all know there is nothing scarier than an angry lawyer right? RIGHT?

Kitty_Kat

2005-11-26, 07:00 PM

For goodness' sake, people! Vaarsuvius is a boy! Look at all the oots comic strips. Does it say anywhere that he is a girl? No. It has always refered to him as a boy. So why the debate?

Carrion_Humanoid

2005-11-26, 08:32 PM

V is a Woman, and this proves ithttp://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=123 oh wait. . . no it dosent, well it kinda does because they think that H and V are talking about there size. . . i guess

triffid

2005-11-26, 08:38 PM

For goodness' sake, people! Vaarsuvius is a boy! Look at all the oots comic strips. Does it say anywhere that he is a girl? No. It has always refered to him as a boy. So why the debate?

Because some people don't think "it says so because I say so" is an adequate standard of proof.

You haven't been here long, have you? ;)

Devils_Advocate

2005-11-26, 10:48 PM

Well, the comics don't say that Vaarsuvius is a girl, but they don't say that he's a boy either. Granted, characters who know V refer to him/her as if he is male, but...

There is one strip in which someone refers to Vaarsuvius as though V is female: a shopkeeper refers to V as "she" (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=135). Of course, said shopkeeper is clearly a low-Wisdom individual who doesn't know V, but I believe it's the only time we see a pronoun applied to V when (s)he has the opportunity to hear it, and (s)he doesn't object. Not that that actually proves anything. But then, that disclaimer applies equally well to all of the evidence regarding Vaarsuvius's gender...

V is called "sir or madam" by a mount-parking attendant. (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=173)

Belkar refers to V as "ambiguously gendered" (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=107) and attempts to discern its sex (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=177), demonstating that his use of male pronouns to refer to V (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=111) does not indicate certainty on his part on the subject.

And, of course, there's what Rich says on the matter in the FAQ (http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq10).

That's why the debate.

Kitty_Kat, as the Giant recently did with the many people who e-mailed him a decoding of Haley's garbled speech, I must inform you that you have not noticed anything special that escaped everyone else, and that if you thought so, it was rather foolish of you. It's a bit sad that there isn't really a polite way to say that, but there it is.

Frankly, why didn't it occur to you that reading this thread might clear up why there is any confusion about V's gender? (And if you did read the thread, why ask a question the answer to which has been covered many times over, eh?)

Rusty

2005-12-01, 04:30 AM

To touch further on the shopkeeper strip, I think it should be noted that V looks unquestionably annoyed by their stupidity, and - quite possibly offended and the "she" comment. There's no proof on the latter, but it's certainly a possibility that should not be ignored. (As for The Giant's usage of 'he' when referring to V, that may - as most know - just be the usage of proper grammar. 'Men' could refer to 'men and women', after all!)

Though, I'm not sure if this issue has been addressed (I would assume so?), and it is mildly off topic, but I can't help but ask it...Why is V's hair purple? All of the other OotS members have normal colored hair. I don't doubt the possibilities of dyes, but I am questioning why V would do such a thing, being a serious wizard, and all.

Scorpi

2005-12-01, 08:33 AM

DeathQuaker

2005-12-01, 08:48 AM

It is an interesting correlation, that most of the characters are the same gender as the characters drawn in the PHB but it's arbitrary enough it may be simply coincidence.

And Miallee is awfully slender; if we were to draw her in say, a baggy red robe, we might have trouble determining her gender. ;)

My leaning is toward the coincidence theory, however--but it is an interesting note.

Beelzebub1111

2005-12-01, 08:53 AM

Yay! First post!

I don't know if this has been suggested, but in the Player's Handbook, the different classes are usually associated with a gender and I noticed that the the characters (Linear Guild not included) are of the same gender as their class would suggest.

Fighter(Roy): Male
Ranger(Belkar): Male
Rogue(Haley): Female
Cleric(Durkon): Male
Bard(Elan): Male
Wizard(Vaarsuvius?): Female

Paladin(Miko): Female
Even Miko fits the theory...
Excelent point! I hadn't realy thought about that before. I don't think anyone has mentioned it either. But one could argue that a male gnome wizard is also mentioned. (however I, for one, still belive that V is female. I was just playing devil's advocate)

And for miko, the monk described is also female so that fits as well...interesting...

KuH

2005-12-01, 09:47 AM

... allow me to further muddy the waters.

In another thread ('How Can Miko Do This') a certain extremely well-informed person (i.e., the only one who knows the truth) stated (and I quote):

' • Miko goes nuts on V, critical hitting **him** with her katana and knocking **him** to -1 in one shot.'

A slip of the lips or misinformation? You decide ...

Wrecan

2005-12-01, 10:16 AM

http://www.giantitp.com/FAQ.html#faq10

Stop it. Just stop it. Rich uses the male pronoun as a default pronoun, not as evidence or a slip of the tongue/finger. This has been said repreatedly by many people. V is of indeterminate gender until Burlew expressly states otherwise.

Scorpi

2005-12-01, 03:15 PM

Well... Vaarsuvius isn't a gnome. If the male wizard was described specifically as a gnome in the PHB then I don't think that argument would hold in court. ;)

Electric_Monkey

2005-12-01, 09:23 PM

And if you want to extend it to the other classes (this is somewhat tenuous because there are no PCs of these classes, so I'm going on "1st NPC", but hey- a Johnny-come-lately has to grab what he can), the first sorcerer encountered by the order is either Zykon or Nale (Roy at least knows of Zykon at the start, but the first on-panel meeting is with Nale), both of whom are male. I don't think they've met a druid yet, and to the bestof my knowledge, all the barbarians they've met have been male.

Rusty

2005-12-01, 09:56 PM

Actually, there was a female Barbarian. Only Belkar met her, though.

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=133

Though while the default examples do in fact hold little weight - note that the Linear Guild had two women in it. This may also, of course, mean absolutely nothing. (And it probably does!)

Electric_Monkey

2005-12-01, 10:00 PM

Are you referring to Kuurkk? While Kuurkk has long hair, the flat body would lead me to believe Kuurkk is male. I'm not trying to start a Kuurkk the anaemic gender debate thresd, just checking in case I've missed something.

Scorpi

2005-12-02, 10:37 AM

The Linear Guild is supposed to be (Kinda) opposites of the Order so I didn't count them. I think Hylgia was only female because she was supposed to get together with Durkon.

If you look strictly at the Order of the Stick then my theory could be true (But probably isn't). ::)

Beelzebub1111

2005-12-03, 12:49 AM

Okay, before today's comic sarts a riot let me first say that sabine's only knowlege of V's gender is the fact that she knew Z'drrti's gender. So there is no real way she could know for sure.

Annon

2005-12-03, 01:50 AM

Am I allowed to take snippets of the comic to prove a point?

I'm not editing them in any way (except maybe to crop, but no alteration I maen), but I don't want to step on any toes....

fhthd

2005-12-03, 06:26 AM

Maybe all elves have absolutly no gender, and Z'drrti was like V and nobody really knew its gender but refered to it as him/her.
Edit: I just had this idea, maybe V is a THIRD GENDER, from a magical accident.

LE4dGOLEM

2005-12-03, 09:14 AM

Am I allowed to take snippets of the comic to prove a point?

I'm not editing them in any way (except maybe to crop, but no alteration I maen), but I don't want to step on any toes....

Just link to them ;)

Electric_Monkey

2005-12-03, 09:37 AM

I would say that strip 252 supports the "V is male" side - Sabine specifically contradicts Nale to call V a dude, which suggests she is sure, and as a succubus/(however you spell the lawful equivalent of a succubus), she would likely be very good at judging the gender of mortals. Of course, if she's a CE succubus, she could be contradicting him for the sake of it.

amanodel

2005-12-03, 09:53 AM

But just before it Nale says "elf chick", so let's call this even again :)

The giant won't add anything to help us until the last strip of the comic ;D

Annon

2005-12-03, 03:59 PM

Just link to them ;)

I was actually hoping to use smaller pieces of them, cropped from the original comic for purposes of comparison....

Omniplex

2005-12-03, 06:50 PM

I think I've seen it done before, to compare the hights of character's eyes on their face. Men have eyes higher on their face then women. V's eyes, however, are in between.

fhthd

2005-12-03, 07:06 PM

I still say third gender, i am the kind of guy that knows how a lot of animals reproduce.

thecoweyed

2005-12-03, 08:34 PM

Hey, guys :)

I posted something like to the 252 comic thread, but I thought I'd post it here, cleaned up and modified a little, since this seems to be the place for such discussion.

It's not technically a GUESS as to V's actual gender, but it's trying to pick apart how other people see V's gender.

My basic argument from my other post ran like this:

In #252, Nale refers to V as a 'chick' while... Evil!Haley?... I don't remember her name offhand... refers to V as a 'dude.'

V being an elf, and elves being very pretty, on the whole, I wondered if that prettiness would sway people to see V (instinctively, not logically) as the gender they're most sexually attracted to.

After further consideration (and someone bringing up that Roy once called V "V-Man") I think this might be a little oversimplified... but I still think it might hold in the case, say, of Skank!Haley, obviously a very sexually-driven character (she's wearing red leather!), and Nale, by association with said Skank.

Despite all he admits to it, I don't see Roy as a character driven by his Trouser Titan, but I do see him as a character who has (or maybe, now, had) some messed-up ideas about women. E.g. it's unfair to hit a woman, all of that jazz.

Roy might not know V's gender, but he definately knows how powerful V is. Would V's being a capable and competent person in battle lead Roy toward believing he's male?

Conversely, would people who had only seen V's physical frailty and none of her physics-shattering doom, and who had the same mindset as Roy, assume she's female?

The ambiguity of V's gender allows for so many great investigations into the subconsciouses of the people around her! Him! Whatever! I totally assumed V was a girl until I saw it pointed out otherwise, and that fact makes me wonder more about ME than it makes me wonder about V.

Not changing the subject at all, Nathaniel Hawthorne wrote a book you may have heard of called The Marble Faun, in which no one's ever really sure whether the main character is a human or a mythological being living in (then) modern-day Rome. The novel remains mysterious to the end, and when the second edition was printed, he added an epilogue asking people to PLEASE stop sending him letters asking him whether Donatello was actually a faun: in the words of a Nightmare Before Christmas -- "that's the point of the thing, not to know!"

I'll go now, before I become overly pedantic. Or am I too late? :-[

Hee! Sorry! :-*

TCE

Samiam303

2005-12-03, 08:37 PM

I agree completely, the fun is in not knowing. Rich will never (I Hope) prove V's gender one way or the other.

Annalia

2005-12-04, 03:42 PM

in the words of a Nightmare Before Christmas -- "that's the point of the thing, not to know!"

Great! A nightmare before Christmas fan!

I for my part, has always think of V as a female but I think the only reason I can see for this is the lack of female character otherwise...

mec

2005-12-08, 02:23 AM

I still say third gender, i am the kind of guy that knows how a lot of animals reproduce.

I'm in this camp. Vaarsuvius might be somewhere outside the male/female dichotomy. You mentioned magical accident right?

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=237

Not Roy's magical accident; I mean that V either did not notice or did not think it was important.

Charity322

2005-12-08, 02:37 AM

If V was a girl that would balance out the genders in the party more. Otherwise poor Haley is the only female.

I'm sure the revealing of V's new Linear Guild "opposite" as male will give rise to a lot more speculation. :P

Elurindel

2005-12-08, 03:59 AM

My personal view is that V is male. I can just imagine him with a sort of posh, aloof male voice.

Krytha

2005-12-08, 04:41 AM

I personally think that V is male, just because I always thought of him as a guy for no good reason. I wasn't even aware there was a debate on his gender until I looked into the forums.

I'm sticking to his gender until it is proven to be otherwise. All in all, it barely affects the strip so I guess this is just because people are bored...

Amalthea

2005-12-08, 09:03 AM

Well, strip #254 shows us that Lirian isn't a half elf - she has two ears. That doesn't affect which gender V is, but I hope it puts some of the 'elves are genderless' silliness to rest. V is still indeterminately male/female/etc...

Scorpi

2005-12-08, 05:59 PM

Another clue:

V's opposite (Pompey) is definately a male and if he is her opposite then V is probably a female. At least it supports my "V's gender is based on the Phb" theory.

Wrecan

2005-12-08, 06:16 PM

Except the Linear Guild clearly has no idea what gender V is. Nale thinks V is a woman, but admits that V has no clear gender identity. Sabine thinks V might be a man. They choose Pompei, in part, not for being male, but for not being ambiguously gendered.

Pompei's gender doesn't mean V is the opposite in any way shape or form. In fact, if that were true, the whole joke of this strip would be ruined.

Ravyn

2005-12-08, 06:21 PM

Besides, with the exception of Durkon and Hilgya, (and possibly V and Zzt'dri) all of the OotS/LG pairs the first time around were the same sex.

Scorpi

2005-12-09, 03:43 AM

Hush! Don't ruin my perfectly good theory! >:(

Vaarsuvius is a female! A female I tell you!

Metroid

2005-12-09, 03:12 PM

Wait. So the name Vaarsuvius is now based on Vesuvius, right? And the Vulcan god (not the Spockites, the Roman god of fire) was male, right?

Kulatu

2005-12-10, 12:07 AM

You know something I noticed? Maybe I'm imagining this, but from what I've seen the majority of males think that V is male and the majority of females think that V is female.

Beelzebub1111

2005-12-10, 02:18 AM

your theorie is flawed becaus I think V is female. And the last time I checked, I was male.
*double checks*
Yup, definately a guy

Arian

2005-12-10, 06:56 AM

fhthd

2005-12-11, 01:50 AM

Elves have genders right? What if V lied about being an elf and is really a similar race that is ambiguosly gendered?
One such race similar to elves and is ambiguosly gendered is shyde.

Dhavaer

2005-12-11, 02:24 AM

Do you mean sidhe? And for the record, I think V is female. The PHB theory is a great one. I wolud like to point out a flaw in it, however: Except for V, each member of the Order is a different race from their class's Iconic.

Metroid

2005-12-11, 04:24 PM

Dwarf priest is pretty standard, as the human bard.

Tabmow

2005-12-12, 09:16 AM

Just registered here... I'm personally under the impression that V is female.

My proof? #127. Tell me a guy would go on that kind of rant.

Amalthea

2005-12-12, 10:46 AM

Just registered here... I'm personally under the impression that V is female.

My proof? #127. Tell me a guy would go on that kind of rant.
Speaking as a married woman, I can 100% guarantee you that a man will go on that kind of rant, if given the required aggravation.

Now, I think that V started out as male, because the whole OotS started out as a parody of the classic stereotypical adventuring group. You have 1 girl, 1 elf, 1 dwarf, 1 halfling, and the remainder of the party (of 6 of course) consists of human males. The classes are equally predictable: the fighter, the bard, the wizard, the thief, the cleric, and the ranger. In contrast, the Linear Guild is a much more modern, exotic party (with an even mix of genders), consisting of a tri-classing human male, a fiend of some sort, a drow, a female dwarf (without a beard), a kobald, and a half orc.

mec

2005-12-12, 08:31 PM

And I think V started as a male and now doesn't have a defined gender.

I'm 100% definite that ve1 isn't female - ve doesn't seem female to me at all. And I'm 100% definite that I am female. :-)

1(Pronoun by mec; used with permission)

Aw,you quoted me from my first post. Now I'm blushing. :)

Seriously, how does V not seem female to you? I see some female character traits: hangs out with Haley and talks about relationships; and some male character traits: over-analyzes things even in combat: like the asides about "counterspell" with Samantha, or "protection against arrows" against shurikens, or the long speech about "dominate monster" while the acid dragon is waking up.

How about tricking Belkar into reading explosive runs? Sounds male to me. How about preparing Crushing Despair on a day when they are in town, then whipping it on Belkar? Sounds female to me.

Then again, all those attributes are only stereotypically gendered, different people are very different, and the Giant likes to show V with both kinds of traits.

Athanatos

2005-12-13, 10:10 PM

V was originally intended to be male, as the masculine name and "V-Man" strongly suggest (but do not prove). Rich then realized that he could make a lot of (admittedly funny) jokes about V's gender ambiguity, and decided to capitalize it. Anyone who seriously thinks V is a woman is just silly.

Dhavaer

2005-12-14, 02:16 AM

Dwarf priest is pretty standard, as the human bard.

Assuming this is intended as a reply to my post, this means nothing.
Jozan, the iconic cleric, is human.
Devis and Gimble, the iconic bards, are a half-elf and a gnome respectively.

Scorpi

2005-12-14, 04:05 AM

Anyone who seriously thinks V is a woman is just silly.

I beg to differ! I am not silly! *Cackles menacingly*
How did you get that impression!?

Rich probably intended V as a male at first but he has since then purposefully made him/her both feminine and masculine when the ambiguity was noticed.

I must say that V's hanging out with Haley and their conversation about boobs gemstones is what set him/her as a female in my head.

evileeyore

2005-12-14, 10:12 AM

Athanatos

2005-12-17, 06:25 PM

Hmm... my last post had too much of an "I'm right, you're wrong" air to it. For that, I apologize.

Anyway:

In my opinion, V's gender has undergone two stages. In Stage I, V was male. This stage occurred when Rich was coming up with the ideas for OotS, and when the first comics were written and put up. My reasons for thinking ot this? Vaarsuvius is a DEFINITELY male name, "V-Man" is DEFINITELY a male term (Yeah, yeah, I'm aware of the "Only proves that Roy thinks . . ." deal), and there were NO comics early on that dealt with V's gender ambiguity (a cookie to the person who can find the first when it's mentioned!)

Then something happened. Debates started popping up on the board, asking "What gender is V?" Rich realized that the community was divided on this issue, and that making comics about it and purposefully never revealing the truth would create some truly hilarious situations. He thus changed V's gender from Male to Ambiguous, which means that V, from that point on, would display characteristics of both male and female, as well as both hermaphroditic and androgynous traits.

Because Rich is now having V display both male and female characteristics- sometimes in the same comic- the debates get even more heated. And honestly, it's pretty hilarious. For pretty much every thing V does or says, there's a post saying "Well, that seems to me like a [insert favored gender] action to me".

Thus, V's gender has been in two stages: Male and Ambiguous. Neither are female. Any female characteristics V shows (and, by this point, any male characteristics) are only for the sake of furthering the rather humorous running joke and accompanying debate.

... of course, this is all my opinion. Take it with a grain of salt.

Reptile

2005-12-18, 12:42 AM

In my opinion, V's gender has undergone two stages. In Stage I, V was male. This stage occurred when Rich was coming up with the ideas for OotS, and when the first comics were written and put up. My reasons for thinking ot this? Vaarsuvius is a DEFINITELY male name, "V-Man" is DEFINITELY a male term (Yeah, yeah, I'm aware of the "Only proves that Roy thinks . . ." deal), and there were NO comics early on that dealt with V's gender ambiguity (a cookie to the person who can find the first when it's mentioned!)

Then something happened. Debates started popping up on the board, asking "What gender is V?" Rich realized that the community was divided on this issue, and that making comics about it and purposefully never revealing the truth would create some truly hilarious situations. He thus changed V's gender from Male to Ambiguous, which means that V, from that point on, would display characteristics of both male and female, as well as both hermaphroditic and androgynous traits.

Actually, it looks like the gender debate started the first time Roy called V "V-Man" (in #9)--some people had assumed that V was female based on the previous strips. See this thread:
http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=comics;action=display;num=1073635653 ;start=45

Thus, V's gender has been in two stages: Male and Ambiguous. Neither are female. Any female characteristics V shows (and, by this point, any male characteristics) are only for the sake of furthering the rather humorous running joke and accompanying debate.

... of course, this is all my opinion. Take it with a grain of salt.

Even before the "V-Man" appellation there is an (admittedly quite weak) indication of V being female--discussing clothing styles with Haley in the first panel of #3 (http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript?SK=3). (Yes, I know that's a blatant gender stereotype, and yes, V could have just been humoring Haley--that's why I say it's quite weak.)

So, in short, I don't think there was a "male" stage at all--V's gender has been intentionally unspecified since the beginning. :)

phlip

2005-12-18, 09:31 AM

See this thread:
http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=comics;action=display;num=1073635653 ;start=45Well that clears up one thing - Pat jokes and Girdle comments are offically old. So quit bringing them up already, people!

Gilganarz

2005-12-19, 02:13 AM

So, in short, I don't think there was a "male" stage at all--V's gender has been intentionally unspecified since the beginning. :)

I disagree. Firstly, I think many people would agree with me in that Vaarsuvius sounds strongly like a male name. The way Vaarsuvius speaks is also quite masculine and follows the stereotypical "fear me for i am the all powerful, greatly superior wizard" trait that females wizard never seem to show.

I also think that the talking to Haley about clothes was a simple joke. A wizard normally doesn't care about such things and the fact that V sympathises is amusing.

AtomicKitKat

2005-12-21, 07:45 AM

Heh, that old thread. Notice that Rich had a good 11 hours between the time the theory was posted(by Bogotter) and the time he actually replied. This gave him a good 8 hours or so to think about it(assuming he read it before going to bed, and mulled it over in his sleep).

I'm with the "male till questioned" crowd. I'll say it again. Anything feminine after strip #9 only proves that the Giant is toying with the community. :)

gooddragon1

2005-12-21, 10:02 PM

Title of episode 240 is when ------ attack
V is female
I officialy power word kill this post reguardless of its hp total
No man would ever worry about exposing the chest, V doesn't when black dragon tail covers all
In 240 not only did another person say indirectly that V was female, but also the fact that its name dictates it beyond reasonable doubt.

AtomicKitKat

2005-12-21, 10:18 PM

Title of episode 240 is when ------ attack
V is female
I officialy power word kill this post reguardless of its hp total

1. You are not a mod. Only a mod can lock a topic, ergo, this thread lives.

No man would ever worry about exposing the chest, V doesn't when black dragon tail covers all.

2. V has long made mention of the fact that Elves are "noble", thus, for a noble to be seen naked would be utterly dishonourable.

In 240 not only did another person say indirectly that V was female, but also the fact that its name dictates it beyond reasonable doubt.

3. RTFF. Read the Frelling FAQ. Perceptions.