OOTS #1121 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[jdb-44]

I *knew* there was a good reason to add Rich to my Twitter feed...new comic notification!

So...does this mean Durkon* will be forced to watch a 20-minute memory and won't be able to focus on the fight? That'd make this a pretty clever trick by Durkon! Kind of like the IFCC's ability to take V out of a situation at any point in time...

[Seerow]

I *knew* there was a good reason to add Rich to my Twitter feed...new comic notification!

So...does this mean Durkon* will be forced to watch a 20-minute memory and won't be able to focus on the fight? That'd make this a pretty clever trick by Durkon! Kind of like the IFCC's ability to take V out of a situation at any point in time...

I can only imagine this is happening at speed of thought, and even if Durkon* has to sit through the whole thing, it'll take a few seconds of real time, tops. Then figure the world operates on combat rounds where things like talking and thinking are free actions... I'll be surprised if that's the route this goes, rather than Durkon actually wanting to drive some sort of point home with the Memory in question.

[jdb-44]

I can only imagine this is happening at speed of thought, and even if Durkon* has to sit through the whole thing, it'll take a few seconds of real time, tops. Then figure the world operates on combat rounds where things like talking and thinking are free actions... I'll be surprised if that's the route this goes, rather than Durkon actually wanting to drive some sort of point home with the Memory in question.

Yeah, I guess that makes sense. Wonder what this memory will be? And how long has Durkon had it in mind as a last-ditch effort to sway/stop Durkon*?

[Lord Torath]

I like Durkon trying to look innocent in panel 3. The crack in the dinner plate is also great.

Thanks, Rich!

[Grey_Wolf_c]

So...does this mean Durkon* will be forced to watch a 20-minute memory and won't be able to focus on the fight? That'd make this a pretty clever trick by Durkon! Kind of like the IFCC's ability to take V out of a situation at any point in time...

It's been established (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0948.html) that the memories are reviewed much too fast to affect combat rounds. Durkon's angle is probably to make use of Greg's lack of ability to connect memories together, although I've no idea how he'll do so (nor am I interesting in trying to guess - I'd rather just wait and see how it turns out).

Grey Wolf

[BowStreetRunner]

The real question for me is whether the 'no time jumps' also applies to the audience. If the next 10 comics are all Durkon washing up for supper... :smallannoyed:

[TRH]

I suspect the damage Durkon wanted to do to Greg's planning has already been done, but we'll see. I think this all but confirms that there will be another battle, though, since the deal only protects Kudzu "right now".

[Gallowglass]

Its seems obvious that Durkon has figured out a way to weaponize the fact that Greg (with his +2 int) is incapable of tying memories to meaning. I haven't the foggiest how, but I'm looking forward to seeing what's in store.

[Zyzzyva]

Heh, "as smart as you are, plus two points".

Also, the controlled detonation line reminds me that Durkon has pulled this scam (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0810.html) before... :smallamused:

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I suspect the damage Durkon wanted to do to Greg's planning has already been done, but we'll see. I think this all but confirms that there will be another battle, though, since the deal only protects Kudzu "right now".

No, the deal protects him (from Greg), paraphrased, "at least until Hel destroys the world". There are loopholes aplenty, of course - Greg could allow the Exexarch to attack Kudzu, for example - but the deal, if Greg sticks to it (which he'd likely would, being Lawful) stops Greg from harming Kudzu for the foreseeable future.

Grey Wolf

[Renchard]

Considering it's something that happened on his first day of cleric training, I imagine it's something to do with the nature of the gods, Hel in particular.

[PH7]

As much as I was looking forward to Durkon's reaction to seeing he's 'a pa', I feel like the next comic may be the emotional climax we've been heading towards for these last few months years.
That, and the reunion between Belkar and Durkon of course...

[NRSASD]

Excellent comic as always!

Hehehe... I think Durkon* just signed his own undeath warrant. By demanding that Durkon stop showing him memories, he just cut off his only source of intel on the party. I have no idea what play is going to go down, but I'm pretty darn sure a memory from Durkon could prevent it. A memory that Durkon* no longer has access to.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Excellent comic as always!

Hehehe... I think Durkon* just signed his own undeath warrant. By demanding that Durkon stop showing him memories, he just cut off his only source of intel on the party. I have no idea what play is going to go down, but I'm pretty darn sure a memory from Durkon could prevent it. A memory that Durkon* no longer has access to.

That's not how the arrangement works. This stops Durkon from offering up memories. But it doesn't stop Greg from obtaining them. He may choose not to request any, and currently that is his intention since he fears being mislead by Durkon, but if something unexpected comes up that he thinks might have an explanation in Durkon's memory, nothing in this agreement stops Greg from forcing it out of Durkon.

Grey Wolf

[137beth]

Maybe this memory is going to be something that could help HPoH, but he will ignore it because he thinks it's a trick?

[The Pilgrim]

So now Durkon feeds Durkon* with a totally pointless memory, and Durkon* and all the Forum Members will bang their minds thinking about where the trick is, when the trick is that there is none. And Durkon* will finally come to the conclussion that he has seen trough the ruse and will mkde plans to foil Durkon's trap and... will be defeated because of the distraction.

[HandofShadows]

I have NO idea what's goin on here, but I know it's a set up for something very interesting. :smallcool:

[hamishspence]

Agreed. Whatever Durkon's up to, it'll be good, I think.

[Crusher]

The big plan won't hit yet, but the set-up is almost done.

I'm eagerly anticipating this.

[happycrow]

Durkula isn't in control of what Durkon feeds him up.....

Holy COW what a reveal.

[Kish]

Greg isn't in control of what Durkon feeds him up.....

Holy COW what a reveal.
Really? It was pretty clear here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1112.html). Not to mention earlier when Durkon showed gross-out memories.

[DaOldeWolf]

I wonder what is Durkon thinking? How is it supposed to help with this last memory if the vampire already knows of the possibility of him misleading with a memory? :smallconfused:

[Chei]

So Sgt. Thundershield's clothes and tableware have been getting steadily more wretched over time. I wonder how that's going to play into whatever lesson this memory taught Durkon (that Durkon* will not ignore).

[Ruck]

Wait! I need closure on that anecdote!


That's not how the arrangement works. This stops Durkon from offering up memories. But it doesn't stop Greg from obtaining them. He may choose not to request any, and currently that is his intention since he fears being mislead by Durkon, but if something unexpected comes up that he thinks might have an explanation in Durkon's memory, nothing in this agreement stops Greg from forcing it out of Durkon.

Grey Wolf

Exact wording is "If you agree not to show me any more memories." I would think letter of the law means that this is whether or not they are requested. That said, I had previously thought memories were only shown when requested (I guess until #1089 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1089.html)), so I'm not really sure how this will work.


It's been established (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0948.html) that the memories are reviewed much too fast to affect combat rounds. Durkon's angle is probably to make use of Greg's lack of ability to connect memories together, although I've no idea how he'll do so (nor am I interesting in trying to guess - I'd rather just wait and see how it turns out).

Grey Wolf

While the memories may occur too fast to affect combat rounds, #1112 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1112.html) seems to suggest that at the least, Durkula finds it a little annoying or distracting when he has to see memories he doesn't want to.

[lcavalheiro]

So Greg tried to use Kudzu as a leverage against Durkon and our smelly little dwarf has a plan to turn this table against that vampire full of him(it?)self. I think Durkon's plan is just dulling Greg's analytical mind by pure boredom.

[ErebusVonMori]

The best trap is there is no trap, just Durkon* overanalysing things.

[DanielBDouglas]

I wonder what is Durkon thinking? How is it supposed to help with this last memory if the vampire already knows of the possibility of him misleading with a memory? :smallconfused:

I imagine that there's the possibility of a double bluff. Durkon shows Durkula something that if interpreted naively, would actually help him, like "All clerics of Loki are bound to betray their comrades if you offer them gold." But Durkula assumes that it's a trick, and Durkon is concealing some second half like "but they are also bound to betray the person who bribed them, and Loki will grant them miracle-level spells to do so, because that's how Loki rolls." There is, in fact, no second half, but Durkula refuses to bribe Hilgya out of fear of a trap.

[2D8HP]

So now Durkon feeds Durkon* with a totally pointless memory, and Durkon* and all the Forum Members will burn their minds thinking about where the trick is[...]


You know me well.

So in suspense!

[Keltest]

So Sgt. Thundershield's clothes and tableware have been getting steadily more wretched over time. I wonder how that's going to play into whatever lesson this memory taught Durkon (that Durkon* will not ignore).

I believe the word youre looking for is "old". A chipped plate is still usable, so she wont spend the money to replace it until it breaks the rest of the way.

[AutomatedTeller]

Man, I have no idea where Rich is going with this - from a pure pacing point of view, this is an odd side trip. I mean, swords and chaos spells and staking and washing up for dinner!!!

[happycrow]

Wait! I need closure on that anecdote!

Exact wording is "If you agree not to show me any more memories." I would think letter of the law means that this is whether or not they are requested. That said, I had previously thought memories were only shown when requested (I guess until #1089 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1089.html)), so I'm not really sure how this will work.


^ This this this.
That Durkon can throw up memories completely unbidden was not apparent to me either even with the previous refectory memory.

[i6uuaq]

I think the Giant has gone to some trouble here to rule out some of the theories already thrown up on the forum, like the "Show me a weakness of Roy that he has already overcome."

I don't think Durkon will be trying to trick or manipulate Durkon*. I don't think that's who Durkon is. Durkon will continue to try and convince Durkon* that there are better and more noble goals than the destruction of the world, because that's who Durkon is.

I don't think he'll be successful, of course. But it will continue to illustrate the character of Durkon. And Durkon*.

[kiapet]

I don't know, I kind of agree with Greg that Durkon seems like he has some sort of trick up his sleeve.

[Kevka Palazzo]

I think we might count it as a trick, but that probably isn't the phrase that Durkon would use. I think he's gonna try something more straightforward. It's clear that he's trying to leverage Greg's inability to see the connection between memories, but I have no idea how that's going to be relevant. So it'll be fun to see how this works out.

[zimmerwald1915]

Man, I have no idea where Rich is going with this - from a pure pacing point of view, this is an odd side trip. I mean, swords and chaos spells and staking and washing up for dinner!!!
Normally internal conflict is externalized. Here both internal and external conflicts are explored, and juxtaposed.

But it's really the internal conflict that's important and determinative.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

Doing the dishes, no time skip

Doing the dishes, Greg will flip

Washing them dishes, what's your plot?

Washing them dishes, all you got?

[Zyzzyva]

Normally internal conflict is externalized. Here both internal and external conflicts are explored, and juxtaposed.

But it's really the internal conflict that's important and determinative.

Yeah, pretty much. The Order chopping up vampires is fun and all, but this book has basically 100% been about Durkon's past and character. This feels climactic to me because we're about to go on a Durkon vision quest.

[Toper]

This is the biggest cliffhanger I can remember since V and O-Chul fought Xykon and Redcloak. (Maybe that time phantasm Xykon walked through the door in the pyramid.)

Between this and his premature villain monologue (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1116.html), Durkula seems to have developed a Nale-esque habit of overconfidence in his own plans and abilities. I'm guessing he gets it from Hel (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1012.html).

In the flashback, "interestin'" seems to have a random extra apostrophe in the middle.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

In the flashback, "interestin'" seems to have a random extra apostrophe in the middle.

It's a hiccup. Happens to the best of us.

Or maybe a typo. But I like a hiccup better.

GW

[Kashem]

OK, here's my theories (for all they aren't worth):
Back in 1112 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1112.html) Durkon was trying to show Greg his "workplace orientation seminar" from his first day. If Durkon has so many memories from that day, it must have been pretty significant. I make a point to not assume that anything the Giant bothers to tell us is inconsequential, so I note that the "Boxes of Freezing" are cleaned out on the first of the month. Also, in very classic "horror movie" fashion, "We don't want another infestation of celestial roaches like last year."
I foresee a flood of celestial roaches about to enter the field somehow and, being celestial, do some significant damage to the vamps.

Alternate theory:
Sigdi was the one who cleaned out the "Boxes of Freezing" for the temple, and today is the 1st of the month. She is about to enter the combat. Since Durkula is supposed to be Durkon on his worst day, personified, Durkula will be thrown by Sigdi showing up. Even on his worst day, Durkon could never hurt his mother. Maybe we'll see the line that Durkula can't cross because he's only evil, not EVIL.
Either way, I'm pretty sure Sigdi is about to show up.

The celestial roaches were a joke. Though, after the Chaos Giraffes, it would make this fight even more epic.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Heh, "as smart as you are, plus two points".

Also, the controlled detonation line reminds me that Durkon has pulled this scam (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0810.html) before... :smallamused:

Best way to set up an ambush. Tell your opponent what it is, and let them stick their head in the noose anyway.

[PontificatusRex]

Best way to set up an ambush. Tell your opponent what it is, and let them stick their head in the noose anyway.

Indeed, my immediate thought reading this was "It be tea time."

[Jasdoif]

The celestial roaches were a joke.At the same time, being a joke didn't prevent one from appearing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0193.html).

[Ironsmith]

OK, here's my theories (for all they aren't worth):
Back in 1112 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1112.html) Durkon was trying to show Greg his "workplace orientation seminar" from his first day. If Durkon has so many memories from that day, it must have been pretty significant. I make a point to not assume that anything the Giant bothers to tell us is inconsequential, so I note that the "Boxes of Freezing" are cleaned out on the first of the month. Also, in very classic "horror movie" fashion, "We don't want another infestation of celestial roaches like last year."
I foresee a flood of celestial roaches about to enter the field somehow and, being celestial, do some significant damage to the vamps.

Alternate theory:
Sigdi was the one who cleaned out the "Boxes of Freezing" for the temple, and today is the 1st of the month. She is about to enter the combat. Since Durkula is supposed to be Durkon on his worst day, personified, Durkula will be thrown by Sigdi showing up. Even on his worst day, Durkon could never hurt his mother. Maybe we'll see the line that Durkula can't cross because he's only evil, not EVIL.
Either way, I'm pretty sure Sigdi is about to show up.

The celestial roaches were a joke. Though, after the Chaos Giraffes, it would make this fight even more epic.

As much as I like the idea of lowest-point Durkon having enough standards that there are boundaries even Greg wouldn't cross, I'm afraid the current situation points away from that interpretation... I don't think Durkon would hurt his infant son on his worst day, either. For that matter, the worst he would do on his worst day is... say mean stuff about the clergy of Thor. I think Greg's proven there's quite the substantial gap between the two of them.

That being said, I'm not sure that Greg is so static that Durkon would be unable to dissuade him from his plan somehow. I don't think this memory is just for stalling.

[Peelee]

Exact wording is "If you agree not to show me any more memories." I would think letter of the law means that this is whether or not they are requested. That said, I had previously thought memories were only shown when requested (I guess until #1089 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1089.html)), so I'm not really sure how this will work.

If Durkon could simply not show the vampire memories, then he wouldn't know Roy's name. It's a deal of agreement. Even if the vampire demands a memory and Durkon said, "aha! The deal is broken!".... Then Durkon is just saying "you can kill the baby now."

[AutomatedTeller]

Normally internal conflict is externalized. Here both internal and external conflicts are explored, and juxtaposed.

But it's really the internal conflict that's important and determinative.

Good point. I guess it just threw me a little, all the tactical stuff and now delving deep into Durkon's memories.

[SlashDash]

I wonder what is Durkon thinking? How is it supposed to help with this last memory if the vampire already knows of the possibility of him misleading with a memory? :smallconfused:
I think the analogy of "Tea Time" was spot on. I'm expecting something similar.

Back then, he tried to basically just stall until Malack showed up.

Now? Stalling isn't an option.

Here is my theory, we know that Durkon came up with something back in strip 963.

The issue then were 2 memories - one where he tried to help his mom despite her not needing him to and the other where he didn't help Roy when he should. He says they are connected - and Roy's line at the end fills that up for him - he wasn't used to be a team player.

Well... Is Greg a team player? He clealry isn't. He sacrifices his spawns left and right plus he a bit vicious with the whole "you don't have a name"

My guess? Durkon was "betrayed" or felt like that by another cleric on his first day. Or something that got him to resent one of the other clerics - and he wants that thought to sink in to Greg that maybe another vampire will usurp him in Hel's plan.

Like... The Exarch maybe? Getting him to be jealous or fearful might push him to rush to his side and make some mistake.


Man, I have no idea where Rich is going with this - from a pure pacing point of view, this is an odd side trip. I mean, swords and chaos spells and staking and washing up for dinner!!!
True, but let's face it, we're here keep reading his work even after 1100 strips because he knows what he's doing.


And frankly, guessing Durkon's plan is more interesting to me than just seeing another magic missle flying about.

[wumpus]

Heh, "as smart as you are, plus two points".

Also, the controlled detonation line reminds me that Durkon has pulled this scam (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0810.html) before... :smallamused:

That didn't seem like a "plot", merely a realization that the situation isn't as bad as it appeared (he was certainly surprised by the ambush).

While I don't have any expectation that Durkon is any good at deception and running scams (he doesn't seem the type of LG cleric with a long history of deceiving by saying nothing but the truth), Greg certainly believes he is.

And those two points of intelligence simply try to overrule the high wisdom, which is what you should be using to see through a scam. Most con artists will prefer to trick a smart guy.

[Rogar Demonblud]

That didn't seem like a "plot", merely a realization that the situation isn't as bad as it appeared (he was certainly surprised by the ambush).

While I don't have any expectation that Durkon is any good at deception and running scams (he doesn't seem the type of LG cleric with a long history of deceiving by saying nothing but the truth), Greg certainly believes he is.

And those two points of intelligence simply try to overrule the high wisdom, which is what you should be using to see through a scam. Most con artists will prefer to trick a smart guy.

First, Strip 264. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0264.html)

Second, a vampire also gets +2 WIS.

[Tarian]

Clearly, the plate is still there because the crack is in the shape of a lightning bolt.

No good gods-fearing dwarf would throw out a lightning bolt symbol blessed plate until it was utterly beyond use.

That, or it's still functional, and there's no use in wasting a still functional plate.

[Dragolord]

Good grief, these are coming quickly nowadays.

[zimmerwald1915]

(he doesn't seem the type of LG cleric with a long history of deceiving by saying nothing but the truth)
Doesn't he? "I count 'able to be picked by a rogue' as a pretty big defect" was his line, after all.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Pretty interesting to see the contrasts in Lawfullness between Durkon and the High Priest of Hel. I also have a feeling that the next couple of strips are going to be emotionally intense, even more so than this one already kind of was.

[JT]

Technically Durkon spoke a non-truth (wont say he "lied" because I don't think there was intent to deceive.

He said the memory would not include Roy, Haley, or any member of the Order.

But there's Durkon, cleric for the Order of the Stick, smack dab in the middle of this memory.

;)

[Peelee]

Technically Durkon spoke a non-truth (wont say he "lied" because I don't think there was intent to deceive.

He said the memory would not include Roy, Haley, or any member of the Order.

But there's Durkon, cleric for the Order of the Stick, smack dab in the middle of this memory.

;)

They're Durkon's memories. They by necessity always include Durkon.

[JT]

But they still include a member of the Order...
By necessity or by choice doesn't change that fact. (Like I said, I'm not claiming he lied. I'm also not going to claim that this will be at all significant. I'm confident that it's meaningless.)

[Kish]

He wasn't a member of the Order yet. He was barely even a cleric.

[Dragolord]

He wasn't a member of the Order yet. He was barely even a cleric.

Which raises the possibility, now closed, of a memory from his and Roy's time together before meeting the others.

[Peelee]

But they still include a member of the Order...
By necessity or by choice doesn't change that fact. (Like I said, I'm not claiming he lied. I'm also not going to claim that this will be at all significant. I'm confident that it's meaningless.)

Imean, if we ignore the incredibly semantic hair splitting, then IMO the best way to put it would be that he was simply wrong. I don't think there's any need, though, since it's incredibly semantic hair splitting.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

But there's Durkon, cleric for the Order of the Stick, smack dab in the middle of this memory.

The current Order of the Stick has two clerics, neither of which is Durkon.

GW

[GreatWyrmGold]

"I shouldn't have said 'no time jumps'."
Don't you just love when your own cleverness gets the better of you? It's like trying to trick a genie into giving you more wishes, except with more soap and theology.



Also, the controlled detonation line reminds me that Durkon has pulled this scam (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0810.html) before... :smallamused:
I'm not sure it's a comparable situation. Past!Durkon had no idea that Nale would be attacking; he was just on the balcony because tea time happened to be at the right time. But now, Durkon's had nothing but time to plan.
Also, I'd be surprised if a snake-vampire brought tea to Durkon's mom.



I wonder what is Durkon thinking? How is it supposed to help with this last memory if the vampire already knows of the possibility of him misleading with a memory? :smallconfused:
That is the nature of mind-games. Most of the time, you know the other guy is plotting something. You just need to figure out what, and how their visible moves build to that. But the other guy knows you know, and is constructing those visible moves to make you think what he wants you to think, so he does what he wants you to do.
What is Durkon thinking? That requires knowing what he's trying to do, which requires us to essentially do the same thing Durkon* is doing. We know his ultimate goal (prevent Hel from destroying the world), and we know what he can do (show memories to Durkon*), we just need to connect the dots.
It has been well-established that Durkon cannot do anything to affect Durkon*'s ability to fight; not only is he limited to being a glorified VHS player crossed with Statler & Waldorf, he has been forbidden from showing any potentially-misleading memories. That leaves only Durkon*'s will to fight, or at least his will to do something which could prevent the Order from saving the day. What could this be?
There are several potential avenues of attack. Durkon could make Durkon* question his motivation, his trust in Hel or the spawn, his confidence in something-or-other, etc. The trick is going to be giving Durkon* a revelation strong enough that he can't just dismiss it as "some trick," something that will linger in the back of his mind no matter how he tries to forget it.
That probably means something that hits deep at the core of who Durkon* is and what he wants himself to be. Given that he's a servant of Hel even more thoroughly than your average living cleric, I'm tentatively guessing that it'll have something to do with that. Of course, I'm not sure how hard it'd be for anything a Thor-lover says about her to be dismissed (Hel presumably hasn't pretended that all the mortals hate the incumbents and are eagerly awaiting a chance for Hel to whisk them away), so I'm not too confident about that.
Once we get more than one panel of Durkon's plan, we might be able to start making better plans.



But it's really the internal conflict that's important and determinative.
As it should always be. Though perhaps not always so...literally.



Second, a vampire also gets +2 WIS.
Beat me to it!
Though on a serious note, conflating Wisdom with wisdom is as foolish as conflating Intelligence with intelligence.



Doesn't he? "I count 'able to be picked by a rogue' as a pretty big defect" was his line, after all.
That's not a long history. That's a single instance.

[AutomatedTeller]

Well, we do know that Durkula is incapable of seeing how memories relate to each and that he is incapable of seeing that such a thing is possible (back from #963)

Presumably, Durkon's plan is to take advantage of that fact. So, I know the form of what Durkon is trying to do - show a memory that, in relation to an earlier one, will cause Durkula to make a mistake, because he can't see how they relate.

I have no idea what that could be.

[Sloanzilla]

So, some insight by the young priest into the nature of the gods and worship?

[Turin_19]

I simply love the comic. I really think the memory though has to somehow come as a Big Reveal. For that, I think the next few pages will show memories interceded with 'present time'. From there we will know.

EDIT: to avoid two posts in a row.

But, somehow, I don't see that it should be NOW that Durkula dies. I mean, to me, it seems that Durkula should die exclusively because of something Durkon showed him. However, right now, Durkula already seems to be losing and Roy's strategies are working extremely well. It doesn't seem Durkon has a real impact on this.

[Chei]

That's not a long history. That's a single instance.

"The five of us never left our cells."

I'll grant, in advance, that you can count them as the same instance. But to me, it betrays a familiarity with the concept that can only come with practice.

[dariathalon]

I'm kind of wondering if...


Durkon is going to show a memory of the first time he turned undead or something. I have no idea if that would work through a memory, but I can easily imagine Durkon wouldn't know either, hence saving it for a time when it might make a bigger difference. Another part of me says it wouldn't work because at the time Durkon was so low level, but I still think it would be a fun way for this to pan out.

[zimmerwald1915]

Though perhaps not always so...literally.
Why not? There is no life but that of the mind.

[Elenna]

But, somehow, I don't see that it should be NOW that Durkula dies. I mean, to me, it seems that Durkula should die exclusively because of something Durkon showed him. However, right now, Durkula already seems to be losing and Roy's strategies are working extremely well. It doesn't seem Durkon has a real impact on this.

My expectation is that more spawn will die and then Greg will realize he's losing that battle and mist out to meet the Ex-Exarch and Nameless Vamp in the council chamber, where there will be another fight.

[are]

Has anyone been minding the vampire's spell slots? Presumably he's 15th level since he now has access to Symbol of Death, so I'm going to try and do a quick rundown of his slots and cast spells that we've seen so far.

The following assumes a max wisdom of 25 on the vampire's part, based on the CLG thread's estimate of Durkon's wisdom of 22-23 +2 for being a vampire.

I am also assuming that "Mass Raise Vampire" is equivalent to Animate Dead, though I of course have no reason to assume this other than Malack's discussion of it and some speculation on the forum that because it requires an extremely rare commodity its spell slot cost might not be high.

Cantrips: 6


Level
Bonus Spell 2
Bonus Spell 1
5th Spell
4th Spell
3rd Spell
2nd Spell
1st Spell
Domain Spell


1
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?


2
?
?
?
?
?
?
?
?


3
?
?
?
?
?
?
Animate Vampires?
?


4

?

?
?
?
Sending
?


5

?

?
?
?
Commune
?


6

?


?
?
?
?


7

?



?
Mass Inflict Serious Wounds
?


8






Symbol of Death
?



It would be really fitting if the vampire's domains were Death and Destruction, as that would be an extremely literal prophecy fulfillment, but there's nothing to confirm that. We've seen him cast Destruction and Harm but those are just normally available cleric spells.

Nor do we have confirmation if he's the one who cast the rest of the high-level Symbols of X we saw scattered around the chamber when the giraffes got zapped.

I will update this post in future discussion threads as the vampire casts more spells.

[ed: forgot bonus spells in table]

[Chei]

Death, at the least, is confirmed as one of Hel's domains. She's also a goddess of pestilence, which doesn't necessarily imply Destruction, but as a vampire cleric, Durkon would have access to that domain, going by the 3.5 SRD.

[zimmerwald1915]

Has anyone been minding the vampire's spell slots?
Yes, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22737279&postcount=51), along with Vaarsuvius's and Hilgya's.

[Mandor]

Given that it all goes at the speed of thought, which in game terms is effectively instantaneous, I'm not sure what Durkon intends here.

It cant' just be a LONG memory to delay him.
It can't be to drum up sympathy in a vampire.

I mean, sure, you have the chance to MAYBE have him spare your kid without putting anything extra at risk, you take it. (Not really sure I trust Greg to keep his word.... but it's a chance.)
But Durkon seems to have a GOAL in mind with showing this one memory.

[M.A.D]

Interesting. The last guy who said he'd play to Durkon's trick to avoid it got stabbed in the chest.

[zimmerwald1915]

Interesting. The last guy who said he'd play to Durkon's trick to avoid it got stabbed in the chest.
Who? Sorry, but when I hear "stabbed in the chest" all I can think about is Elan.

[Jasdoif]

Interesting. The last guy who said he'd play to Durkon's trick to avoid it got stabbed in the chest.
Who? Sorry, but when I hear "stabbed in the chest" all I can think about is Elan.Understandable, there was a time (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0810.html) delay (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0913.html) and a change of agents.

[Lord of Sporks]

I'm just going to put this prediction here right now. Durkon's memory will be:

Him learning the truth about his dad. The real story: not the one he was told. That's the story everyone knows, but his ma told everyone not to tell him. Why? Why not tell Durkon that his father died honorably to save others? Because it's not the truth. Durkon's mom knows the truth, and it isn't pretty, and something that happened at the temple is going to make Durkon bring it up, and the truth is going to come out.

This is the most logical topic for the memory. We know Durkon's father is important: we know something is up with the story, since there is no reason his mom wouldn't want Durkon to hear about his death if it was really so honorable. I don't know how this will affect the battle, if at all. But from a story point of view, it seems like the most logical next step.

[M.A.D]

Who? Sorry, but when I hear "stabbed in the chest" all I can think about is Elan.

It's Nale. You're pretty close there.

[Lkctgo]

Hm... I wonder if vampires can learn empathy from their hosts.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Well, we do know that Durkula is incapable of seeing how memories relate to each and that he is incapable of seeing that such a thing is possible (back from #963)
Presumably, Durkon's plan is to take advantage of that fact. So, I know the form of what Durkon is trying to do - show a memory that, in relation to an earlier one, will cause Durkula to make a mistake, because he can't see how they relate.
I have no idea what that could be.
On one hand, I do think that Durkon*'s inability to put together memories will come up again at some point. On the other hand, I have no idea how showing Durkon* a memory that he can't piece together with another memory is supposed to be better than not showing him that memory at all. Aside from allowing Durkon to gloat that he showed Durkon* how to win, if only he could put 2 and 2 together...which doesn't seem like Durkon, on several levels.



"The five of us never left our cells."
I'll grant, in advance, that you can count them as the same instance. But to me, it betrays a familiarity with the concept that can only come with practice.
As indicated by the discomfort he clearly showed while deceiving the Sapphire Guard, and the fact that he never did anything else like that before or since.



Why not? There is no life but that of the mind.
That might be true from a certain point of view, but it's hard to make a story that takes place entirely inside someone's mind engaging to the audience without turning that mind into its own world with its own characters. Most of the time, it's better to have characters struggle against symbolic representations of their inner demons than to go through the trouble of establishing the inner world well enough for the audience to buy into it and care.

[KorvinStarmast]

The current Order of the Stick has two clerics, neither of which is Durkon. Yeah. I don't think Durkula is going to waste effort on the rules lawyering deal. That seems more like Exarch's schtick.

Looking forward to the next scene and the memory with Durkon's Ma. Based on how all of this is going on in Durkon/Durkula's head, Kudzu's status is something like "virtual hostage" but there may be a better term for that.

[IntelectPaladin]

Everyone, I think I've got it.
Durkon isn't trying to trick greg.
He's attempting to convince him of something.
Of Hel's true nature, of his discoveries as a cleric, (Much as the same discoveries made by a nurse, perhaps,)
or of something I haven't yet guessed.
Whatever is happening here, it doesn't seem underhanded.

Thank you for reading this, and I hope you have a pleasant day.

[MartianInvader]

I'm just going to put this prediction here right now. Durkon's memory will be:

Him learning the truth about his dad. The real story: not the one he was told. That's the story everyone knows, but his ma told everyone not to tell him. Why? Why not tell Durkon that his father died honorably to save others? Because it's not the truth. Durkon's mom knows the truth, and it isn't pretty, and something that happened at the temple is going to make Durkon bring it up, and the truth is going to come out.

This is the most logical topic for the memory. We know Durkon's father is important: we know something is up with the story, since there is no reason his mom wouldn't want Durkon to hear about his death if it was really so honorable. I don't know how this will affect the battle, if at all. But from a story point of view, it seems like the most logical next step.
I like this theory.
And if/when it turns out to be about his father dying without honor, it means it's pretty likely to involve Hela as well. Maybe his mother told him a secret about the pantheon that not even Hela knows- maybe "dying honorably" turns out to be more broad a definition than she was led to believe. It could be something his mother made up to make him feel better, but Hela/Greg may not be willing to take the chance.
Or something.

[Leirus]

I wonder if this is going to be something about the very nature of the gods or the arrangement with Hel. "It is a doozy" says Durkon, with a face that says "I barely understand or like it myself". Something that could thrown off the vampire focus or his faith in Hel even a little. Then again, the fact that the vampire cannot learn should be important, and I do not see how.

[Stabbey]

Oh boy, Durkon is planning something. High Priest of Hel even knows that Durkon is planning something... and I still have no idea what. This ought to be good.

[Peelee]

I don't think "the vampire learns something new about Hel" is going to happen.

[Gusion]

I guess we're doing guesses.

So it is obviously something that he saw/learned on his first day of being a cleric of Thor. Likely then, some type of secret.

I'll go with something in the room with the Exarch. Like there is some ward there he wasn't expecting... or something that indicates that that the Exarch probably failed in his mission if Durkula doesn't go himself. The clerics cast Holy Aura at every chamber meeting maybe.

This sets up a conflict that he has to decide what to do, run to the council chamber or stay and fight.

[Matt620]

I've seen this before, the supposedly "smarter than thou" person gets tricked due to his arrogance.

But it never gets old

[Chei]

As indicated by the discomfort he clearly showed while deceiving the Sapphire Guard, and the fact that he never did anything else like that before or since.

I mean, one more example off the top of my head would be leaving and re-entering the Empire of Blood claiming to be on a pilgrimage. Relatively sure he did some 'lying' to Malack on behalf of Haley there, too.

[Ironsmith]

I mean, one more example off the top of my head would be leaving and re-entering the Empire of Blood claiming to be on a pilgrimage. Relatively sure he did some 'lying' to Malack on behalf of Haley there, too.

Actually, that last one didn't seem to be lying so much as just not contradicting her. And he was pretty annoyed throughout that whole thing.

In basic principle, I'd say Durkon's got the basics of most scams down; offer up information, leave out crucial details, and let the victim make assumptions such that they trip over their own "cleverness". Greg certainly seems to think so (and it's not likely he's wrong, being made in Durkon's image and whatnot). To his credit, though, the only people he's done this to are those who seemed like they presented an active threat if he was transparent with them (Miko, Malack, and the EoB guard), so while he certainly seems to be capable of lies of omission, he's much more responsible with them than, say, Haley or Elan.

[Shining Wrath]

I think we see that Durkon can affect DurkonT, and that the vampire spirit simply lies about how powerless Durkon's soul is, because of course he would. Which does raise the question of how many other lies he tells his captive.

And the result of getting to the end of the memory will cause DurkonT to change his battle plans - something like "This hall has skylights that are opened to let the sun in for the benefit of Freya worshipers" or some such.

[chrestomancy]

I doubt this has anything to do with Durkon's memory, but as Durkon* has "Dwarf" in his subtype, does that mean that if he dies in battle, honorably, performing his goddess's wishes, his soul won't return to Hel, but to Thor's domain? I wouldn't want to be Durkon* in a LG afterlife...

[Keltest]

I doubt this has anything to do with Durkon's memory, but as Durkon* has "Dwarf" in his subtype, does that mean that if he dies in battle, honorably, performing his goddess's wishes, his soul won't return to Hel, but to Thor's domain? I wouldn't want to be Durkon* in a LG afterlife...

Undead do not have souls as such, including vampires. What happens to Greg when the body is stakes is unknown. However, if he were a soul, he would still go to Hel, because that's where his normal afterlife would be as a cleric of Hel.

[factotum]

Yeah, I would expect at the very least that being a cleric in good standing of a particular God would mean you go to that god's domain after death--it wouldn't really make sense for clerics of Odin to end up in Thor's domain, for instance. The only in-strip evidence for that is Jirix's post-mortem vision, though, and since all goblinoids worship the Dark One (AFAIK) it doesn't really tell us much.

[Logosloki]

20minutes isn't even that long of a time for dish washing.

[JumboWheat01]

No takebacks now. You wanted no time jumps, you GET NO TIME JUMPS!

[Kish]

I doubt this has anything to do with Durkon's memory, but as Durkon* has "Dwarf" in his subtype, does that mean that if he dies in battle, honorably, performing his goddess's wishes, his soul won't return to Hel, but to Thor's domain? I wouldn't want to be Durkon* in a LG afterlife...
Having an afterlife requires having a life first. Greg has never been alive.

[Rrmcklin]

I think we see that Durkon can affect DurkonT, and that the vampire spirit simply lies about how powerless Durkon's soul is, because of course he would. Which does raise the question of how many other lies he tells his captive.

And the result of getting to the end of the memory will cause DurkonT to change his battle plans - something like "This hall has skylights that are opened to let the sun in for the benefit of Freya worshipers" or some such.

Without getting into a big argument about this again, I'll point out that "the vampire is lying about everything" isn't something that should be assumed because he's not saying these things just for Durkon's sake; it's for the audiences sake. If we're not supposed to trust what he says about vampirism it greatly detracts from the situation.

And, even if you'd say he would lie to Durkon, he certainly wouldn't lie to Hel. Going "he's evil, so of course he's lying" doesn't automatically follow. Durkon has been struggling almost this entire time, if he had the power to actually do anything (besides showing memories) it would have been made apparent by now.

[Elanasaurus]

20minutes isn't even that long of a time for dish washing.Isn't he only washing for 2?

[The MunchKING]

20minutes isn't even that long of a time for dish washing.

I thought "Washing up" in this context meant "Washing your hands and/or any other body parts you'd like to be clean before you eat".

For dinner rather than from dinner indicated it's before dishes.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Going "he's evil, so of course he's lying" doesn't automatically follow.

Indeed. Lying is a chaotic act (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0681.html), not an evil one.

GW

[Ironsmith]

Indeed. Lying is a chaotic act (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0681.html), not an evil one.

GW

At the same time, though, the assumption that Greg might be lying isn't one that's entirely without precedent, given that the entire first half of the current arc was him pulling a massive string of deceptions to get himself to the Godsmoot. Whether he's lying to Durkon is up for debate, but he's certainly lied to other people before.

[Riftwolf]

My guess for the memory; it'll be something vitally important about Thors Priesthood which didnt make sense to Durkon until much later. So far all the memories about his life pre-exile have been before the one we're about to see. It'd be interesting if it was a detail he'd misunderstood for the longest time, and Durkon* would misread in the most negative light. I doubt it'll directly swing this fight, as I don't think this is the final battle of this book (feels kinda two-thirdy), but it might be setting up a massive presupposition in the climax.

[eilandesq]

The last panel seems to demonstrate that Durkula can't go back on the deal he just struck, even in minor details such as ordering Durkon to skip time in spite of Durkula forcing him to agree not to. I can't help but wonder if that means that Durkula will literally be unable to retrieve any more memories from Durkon until the end of this fight--giving Durkon the ability to resist Durkula when he would not have been able to before.

Also, it seems possible that Durkon's insistence on the one memory could be a red herring--Durkula might have floated that offer to see how Durkon would react to it: if Durkon had accepted the offer without hesitation, Durkula would have suspected that Durkon *did* have some unknown information that he would need to defeat Roy, and accepted the subjective tedium involved in ruthlessly and comprehensively sifting through the rest of Durkon's possibly relevant memories to find it. By making a single demand and showing reluctance to accept something that Durkon should be *thrilled* about, he may have enticed Durkula to accept the deal, become a bit more paranoid about the whole situation, *and* deny himself a major asset in Durkon's memories. Not bad.

[Peelee]

The last panel seems to demonstrate that Durkula can't go back on the deal he just struck, even in minor details such as ordering Durkon to skip time in spite of Durkula forcing him to agree not to. I can't help but wonder if that means that Durkula will literally be unable to retrieve any more memories from Durkon until the end of this fight--giving Durkon the ability to resist Durkula when he would not have been able to before.

No. It's a deal of mutual agreement, not a deal that affects how the world works. The vampire can't go back on the deal because then Durkon can too, and Durkon not doing that is the sole reason the vamp accepted the deal.

Durkon won't magically get power over the vampire just because the vampire was a little annoyed.

[Breccia]

No takebacks now.

"No Backsies" is one of the few commandments of both Thor and Hel.

[schmunzel]

I like this theory.
And if/when it turns out to be about his father dying without honor, it means it's pretty likely to involve Hela as well. Maybe his mother told him a secret about the pantheon that not even Hela knows- maybe "dying honorably" turns out to be more broad a definition than she was led to believe. It could be something his mother made up to make him feel better, but Hela/Greg may not be willing to take the chance.
Or something.

# Durkons Daddy was a priest/follower of Loki

sch

[Ruck]

Without getting into a big argument about this again, I'll point out that "the vampire is lying about everything" isn't something that should be assumed because he's not saying these things just for Durkon's sake; it's for the audiences sake. If we're not supposed to trust what he says about vampirism it greatly detracts from the situation.

And, even if you'd say he would lie to Durkon, he certainly wouldn't lie to Hel. Going "he's evil, so of course he's lying" doesn't automatically follow. Durkon has been struggling almost this entire time, if he had the power to actually do anything (besides showing memories) it would have been made apparent by now.

I think Durkula would definitely lie to Durkon.

What I don't think (and what I think would be bad writing) is that Durkula would lie when there's no character to deceive. That would be explicitly trying to fool the audience. I agree he wouldn't lie to Hel.

I wish I had a good guess for where the story in Durkon's memory is going. Of the guesses I've heard so far, I'd bet most likely on Durkon learning something about the gods that Durkula didn't know, which could cause a change of plans, especially if Durkula takes the wrong key information from the memory. (Durkon learns something that causes Durkula to flee and join the Exarch is intriguing, but I'm not sure why Durkon would be motivated to get Durkula to flee given that the Order seems to have the advantage here. The thing about his dad is plausible, though we have so little to go on there that it's hard to say what or how.)

[SavageWombat]

I think it's more than just plausible. I don't think Rich made up that detail just as a curiosity - it's got to be relevant to the story. And I think the original idea-smith is correct that this is a perfect time for it to come up. I'm excited to see how it comes up.

[Kish]

Two things I am confident of:

1) Durkon will not suddenly pull out a deus ex machina that incapacitates Greg here. If he could do that he would have done it long before now. He may, or may not, weaken or distract Greg in the future at a point where the Order is losing. He will not do so to take the situation from "the Order is winning" to "the Order has won."
2) Greg's evil will remain as unwavering as Tarquin's throughout his existence.

[jere7my]

Two things I am confident of:

2) Greg's evil will remain as unwavering as Tarquin's throughout his existence.

Did we determine Tarquin was evil? I thought we settled on the darker side of LN.

[Peelee]

Did we determine Tarquin was evil? I thought we settled on the darker side of LN.

Yes, the comic was very ambiguous (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0759.html) about that.

[Elenna]

I'm sure Durkon's father will come up again, maybe now, but I have no idea how that might impact the plot.
I expect the fact that Greg pronounces "something" as "somethin'" in the third-last panel of 963 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0963.html)will help somehow, but I have no idea how.

Something will definitely happen with the fact that Durkon's exile is over (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1024.html), but I don't expect that to be relevant until Greg is dusted and they have to figure out what Hilgya and Kudzu are going to do. Mostly because I can't think of any way it might be relevant to the fight.

[zimmerwald1915]

Yes, the comic was very ambiguous (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0759.html) about that.
About as ambiguous on jere7my's sarcasm.

[Peelee]

About as ambiguous on jere7my's sarcasm.

I' fairly sure I'll never have reason to stop saying this, but I am not a smart man.

[Ruck]

I think it's more than just plausible. I don't think Rich made up that detail just as a curiosity - it's got to be relevant to the story. And I think the original idea-smith is correct that this is a perfect time for it to come up. I'm excited to see how it comes up.

You mean the idea about what happened to Durkon's father being different than the story we know? Since we learned that when Durkula requested the memory from Durkon, I'm not sure what would come of showing Durkula the real memory unless it's to cast doubt on everything he's been shown previously (which isn't a bad idea, now that I think about it).

I do think it a little suspicious that Thirden tells young Durkon that Sidgi's weekly dinner companions didn't know her at all until after this had already happened. That's the kind of peculiar detail that could make me buy this theory a little more.

edit: I spent enough time looking for #991 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0991.html) to get the details, that I'll link it for anyone else interested so they don't have to do the same.

[happycrow]

I suspect it's something about the nature of honor itself.
You know, a strange twist that throws it all into a panic and levels the forum in feels?

[DaOldeWolf]

OK. This might be a stretch but I have a theory of what it could be. On his first day as a cleric, he looks at the list of rich donors. Something tells me that someone related to Durkon is on that list, maybe a leader from a clan, maybe someone who could have helped her mother, maybe both. It could even be Durkon´s own father.

[Yendor]

OK. This might be a stretch but I have a theory of what it could be. On his first day as a cleric, he looks at the list of rich donors. Something tells me that someone related to Durkon is on that list, maybe a leader from a clan, maybe someone who could have helped her mother, maybe both. It could even be Durkon´s own father.

Now's probably a good time to point out that one of those names is in fact:
Sigdi Thundershield.

The one above it is Shirra Copperbottom, which may be Sigdi's friend.

Here's the font. (http://www.blambot.com/font_dwarfspirits.shtml)

[Ruck]

OK. This might be a stretch but I have a theory of what it could be. On his first day as a cleric, he looks at the list of rich donors. Something tells me that someone related to Durkon is on that list, maybe a leader from a clan, maybe someone who could have helped her mother, maybe both. It could even be Durkon´s own father.


Now's probably a good time to point out that one of those names is in fact:
Sigdi Thundershield.

The one above it is Shirra Copperbottom, which may be Sigdi's friend.

Here's the font. (http://www.blambot.com/font_dwarfspirits.shtml)

What strip is this? I tried looking but I didn't have any luck finding it.

[hamishspence]

On his first day as a cleric, he looks at the list of rich donors. Something tells me that someone related to Durkon is on that list, maybe a leader from a clan, maybe someone who could have helped her mother, maybe both. It could even be Durkon´s own father.
Now's probably a good time to point out that one of those names is in fact:
Sigdi Thundershield.

The one above it is Shirra Copperbottom, which may be Sigdi's friend.

Here's the font. (http://www.blambot.com/font_dwarfspirits.shtml)


What strip is this? I tried looking but I didn't have any luck finding it.

1112 has the Wall of Very Rich Donors:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1112.html

[danielxcutter]

Sigdi is Durkon's mom's name, right?

[factotum]

Sigdi is Durkon's mom's name, right?

Yes, so if she appears on the Wall of Very Rich Donors despite apparently living in near-destitution, something is off. Could be she just gives *all* her money to the church and doesn't keep any for herself, though...

[SlashDash]

Damn... Never considered it might have plot relavant stuff on that wall.

I just assumed that it would be the top KS donors and \ or maybe a couple of notable forum members like Wrecan (RIP)

Never considered it would be actual plot related secrets in a hidden gem. I am continued to be amazed and how much effort is given to the smaller details in this strip.

[VincentvB]

How does she hold that bowl with only one arm?

[zimmerwald1915]

:durkon: Ma, if'n ye gave so much money to the Church over the years, how came ye've not asked for a Restoration spell? Yer donations would've more'n cover'd it.

[happycrow]

:durkon: Ma, if'n ye gave so much money to the Church over the years, how came ye've not asked for a Restoration spell? Yer donations would've more'n cover'd it.

Yuuuuup. No incoming feels to this one......

[hamishspence]

:durkon: Ma, if'n ye gave so much money to the Church over the years, how came ye've not asked for a Restoration spell? Yer donations would've more'n cover'd it.

Only the High Priest of Odin had the ability to cast the spell, at least at the time:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0983.html

plus, the point of donations is that they're donations - not debts that can be repaid.

[Shining Wrath]

Without getting into a big argument about this again, I'll point out that "the vampire is lying about everything" isn't something that should be assumed because he's not saying these things just for Durkon's sake; it's for the audiences sake. If we're not supposed to trust what he says about vampirism it greatly detracts from the situation.

And, even if you'd say he would lie to Durkon, he certainly wouldn't lie to Hel. Going "he's evil, so of course he's lying" doesn't automatically follow. Durkon has been struggling almost this entire time, if he had the power to actually do anything (besides showing memories) it would have been made apparent by now.


I think Durkula would definitely lie to Durkon.

What I don't think (and what I think would be bad writing) is that Durkula would lie when there's no character to deceive. That would be explicitly trying to fool the audience. I agree he wouldn't lie to Hel.

I wish I had a good guess for where the story in Durkon's memory is going. Of the guesses I've heard so far, I'd bet most likely on Durkon learning something about the gods that Durkula didn't know, which could cause a change of plans, especially if Durkula takes the wrong key information from the memory. (Durkon learns something that causes Durkula to flee and join the Exarch is intriguing, but I'm not sure why Durkon would be motivated to get Durkula to flee given that the Order seems to have the advantage here. The thing about his dad is plausible, though we have so little to go on there that it's hard to say what or how.)

I propose a syllogism.
Major Premise: Durkon can, to some degree however slight, impact DurkonT's actions and thoughts by showing him memories.
Minor Premise: DurkonT is strongly motivated to not let Durkon know that.
Conclusion: On this one particular topic, DurkonT may very well be lying to Durkon, even if that results in deceiving the audience as to the nature of the vampire - host relationship.

In other words, we should not count all scenes "behind the eyes" as bardic exposition for our benefit. Somewhere, Elan frowns.

[zimmerwald1915]

Only the High Priest of Odin had the ability to cast the spell, at least at the time:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0983.html

plus, the point of donations is that they're donations - not debts that can be repaid.
If'n ye must nitpick. . .

Why dinnae ye give yer money to the Church o'Odin, then? And as a payment rather'n a donation? Ye had more'n enuff, just use a little on yerself!

* * *

Point is, we're due for an explanation of what Durkon told Hilgya: that his Ma taught him self-denial and the importance of duty - especially if it makes you miserable. Finding out that she could have had a whole body and comfortable (if not necessarily lavish) lifestyle, and denied herself that, and why, is as good an opportunity as any.

[hamishspence]

Finding out that she could have had a whole body and comfortable (if not necessarily lavish) lifestyle, and denied herself that, and why, is as good an opportunity as any.

Maybe she earned a place on the "richest donor" list before falling on hard times?

We can't assume that she "denied herself comfort" merely based on undated donations.


Yes, so if she appears on the Wall of Very Rich Donors despite apparently living in near-destitution, something is off. Could be she just gives *all* her money to the church and doesn't keep any for herself, though...
We know that when Durkon was growing up, she was on a pension - not having a job - and that unexpected expenses, even small ones, might mean having to borrow money:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0963.html

so, IMO, the most logical explanation for her being cited as a rich donor, was that it happened long ago, before she was poor - rather than that she's getting huge amounts of money and is giving all but a tiny bit to charity.

[Ironsmith]

Maybe she earned a place on the "richest donor" list before falling on hard times?

We can't assume that she "denied herself comfort" merely based on undated donations.

We know that when Durkon was growing up, she was on a pension - and that unexpected expenses, even small ones, might mean having to borrow money:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0963.html

so, IMO, the most logical explanation for her being cited as a rich donor, was that it happened long ago, before she was poor - rather than that she's getting huge amounts of money and is giving all but a tiny bit to charity.

There's a minor wrinkle in that theory, and it's to do with the fact that at the high point of her career, Sigdi was only a sergeant... well above poverty, obviously, but not exactly flowing with gold. What follows is that she pulled a reverse Hylgia; inherited a lot of money (legitimately this time) and donated most-all of it to the church.

Alternatively, the wall could be based on cumulative donations... Sigdi can only spare a couple dozen gold pieces at a time, but she's been donating every bit of change she's saved for years.

[Ruck]

Whew, nice catch on whoever figured out Sigdi's name was on the Wall of Names of Very Rich Donors. Even zooming in and comparing the two it was difficult for me since the letters in the comic are so close together.

It's also the last scene we saw from Durkon's memory of his first day at work before now, so it makes sense that the memory will be connected to this.

edit: A few other names are fully visible, but for the life of me I could not make them out.

[Corneel]

Indeed. Lying is a chaotic act (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0681.html), not an evil one.

GWWhere does it say that in the strip?

IMO lying is an act that due to it's nature will usually fall on the chaotic part of the alignment spectrum and more often than not on the evil part of the spectrum, but in and of itself is an unaligned act. I mean, lying about the jewish refugees you're hiding in the cellar to the gestapo doesn't seem to be either evil or chaotic.

I think there is a tendency to over-ascribe alignment to actions. I mean, over 99% of acts and actions probably don't involve any alignment at all. I mean, me eating a nice camembert with wine this evening: yummy barely necessary. Me going to the toilet later; stinky necessary. Me typing on this forum: self-satisfying unnecessary. Good, Evil, Law or Chaos don't enter into it.

[hamishspence]

BoVD has "lying" on its list of Evil acts discussed in detail - but, it's one of the few that's specifically called out as "does not have to be evil" even though many good-aligned D&D religions ban it.

The PHBs in most editions have played up that Lawful characters tend to tell the truth (and by implication, that telling the truth tends to be Lawful) - and that Chaotic characters tend to be at least willing to lie.

[Ruck]

Where does it say that in the strip?

IMO lying is an act that due to it's nature will usually fall on the chaotic part of the alignment spectrum and more often than not on the evil part of the spectrum, but in and of itself is an unaligned act. I mean, lying about the jewish refugees you're hiding in the cellar to the gestapo doesn't seem to be either evil or chaotic.
Well, that's quite the real-world example to jump to, but given that the Gestapo is a Lawful entity, I think you just disproved your own point.

Other examples at least in the strip tend to show Lawful characters deceiving through omission or exact wording, whereas Chaotic characters will just disregard those technicalities entirely.

[hamishspence]

At least in BoVD, Baalzebul, an archdevil, so "a being of Law and Evil" has the well-earned nickname of "lord of Lies".

Conversely, Angels (alignment - any Good) are notable for being "impeccably honourable" and "never lying, cheating, or stealing"

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/angel.htm

even Chaotic Good angels.

Which does suggest that lying is more affiliated with Evil than it is with Chaos.

[Corneel]

Well, that's quite the real-world example to jump to, but given that the Gestapo is a Lawful entity, I think you just disproved your own point.They can be easily considered as illegitimate (and thus unlawful) when operating in occupied territory and the people hiding jews from them thus acting on pre-established lawful principles. The gestapo also ignored any pre-existing law and engaged in unlawful behavior (torture).

[Ruck]

They can be easily considered as illegitimate (and thus unlawful) when operating in occupied territory and the people hiding jews from them thus acting on pre-established lawful principles. The gestapo also ignored any pre-existing law and engaged in unlawful behavior (torture).

You've made a pretty good case for establishing them as Evil, but I don't think you've told me anything that couldn't be applied to the highly Lawful Empire of Blood. Nor have you addressed the differences of methods of deception between Lawful and Chaotic people (re: which the alignment of the deceived is irrelevant).

[Kish]

They can be easily considered as illegitimate (and thus unlawful) when operating in occupied territory and the people hiding jews from them thus acting on pre-established lawful principles. The gestapo also ignored any pre-existing law and engaged in unlawful behavior (torture).
This also treats "Lawful" as meaning "Obeys the Law" rather than "Ordered."

Torture is overwhelmingly evil; it's not particularly Lawful or Chaotic.

[Ironsmith]

In terms of whether lying is evil or chaotic, I offer up the Fiendish Codex, which gives details on how to dispute and successfully sever a deal with a diabolical figure. Every last one of the devils mentioned are obviously, unabashedly evil, and yet one possible way of severing a deal with them is if it turns out they lied to you (implying the Always Lawful Evil devils won't abide lying).

So, it seems likely that lying, in of itself, tends to bend CE, since pure Good beings won't do it and LE beings won't abide it. Of course, that's assuming you're willing to take it as carrying enough moral weight to leave TN.

[Corneel]

This also treats "Lawful" as meaning "Obeys the Law" rather than "Ordered."

Torture is overwhelmingly evil; it's not particularly Lawful or Chaotic.
Torture was also forbidden by the Geneva Conventions to which Germany was a signatory. And which they mostly respected as far as POWs were concerned. Also if you think Nazi Germany was "ordered", I think you need to read quite a lot more about it. Nazi Germany was pretty much the epitome of a neutral evil regime.

[Ironsmith]

This also treats "Lawful" as meaning "Obeys the Law" rather than "Ordered."

Torture is overwhelmingly evil; it's not particularly Lawful or Chaotic.

...That might be because that's what Lawful is SUPPOSED to mean, at least in part.


Law Vs. Chaos
Lawful characters tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, honor tradition, and judge those who fall short of their duties.

Chaotic characters follow their consciences, resent being told what to do, favor new ideas over tradition, and do what they promise if they feel like it.

"Law" implies honor, trustworthiness, obedience to authority, and reliability. On the downside, lawfulness can include close-mindedness, reactionary adherence to tradition, judgmentalness, and a lack of adaptability. Those who consciously promote lawfulness say that only lawful behavior creates a society in which people can depend on each other and make the right decisions in full confidence that others will act as they should.

"Chaos" implies freedom, adaptability, and flexibility. On the downside, chaos can include recklessness, resentment toward legitimate authority, arbitrary actions, and irresponsibility. Those who promote chaotic behavior say that only unfettered personal freedom allows people to express themselves fully and lets society benefit from the potential that its individuals have within them.

Someone who is neutral with respect to law and chaos has a normal respect for authority and feels neither a compulsion to obey nor a compulsion to rebel. She is honest but can be tempted into lying or deceiving others.

Devotion to law or chaos may be a conscious choice, but more often it is a personality trait that is recognized rather than being chosen. Neutrality on the lawful-chaotic axis is usually simply a middle state, a state of not feeling compelled toward one side or the other. Some few such neutrals, however, espouse neutrality as superior to law or chaos, regarding each as an extreme with its own blind spots and drawbacks.

Animals and other creatures incapable of moral action are neutral. Dogs may be obedient and cats free-spirited, but they do not have the moral capacity to be truly lawful or chaotic.

Plus, if I can offer a bit of a weird philosophical opinion here... even Chaotic individuals tend to be ordered. If a chaotic person is motivated by what they themselves want, then they're still obeying a kind of implicit order: "serve yourself always". If a chaotic person devotes their life to "sticking it to the man", that, too is ordered. Personally, I don't define an ordered mindset as being Lawful until they start actively creating an order that doesn't come naturally to them and then commit to adhering to it.

[Jasdoif]

...That might be because that's what Lawful is SUPPOSED to mean, at least in part.In situations where "law" coincides with "legitimate authority", sure. They're not synonymous, however.

They think that because the D&D definition of Lawful has little to nothing to do with law enforcement. To think that Lawful always means "obeying the written law" is a gross misunderstanding of the D&D definition of the term.

For example, think of formal duels—the "pistols at dawn" kind. Such events are undoubtedly Lawful affairs—they have strict codes, elaborate rules, and concern themselves mostly with symbolic honor. All hallmarks of Lawful behavior when contrasted with, say, a drunken brawl. However, at the time Aaron Burr shot Hamilton, they were illegal in the United States. People who participated in such duels were abiding by a formal code of ethics and behavior that was in opposition to democratically passed law. Lawful behavior can be made illegal in a given jurisdiction, but that doesn't spontaneously change the nature of the act in a cosmological sense.

I've used this example before, but if a paladin walks into the orc's swamp to do battle, he is not suddenly bound to obey the Orc King's laws or lose his paladinhood. It is entirely possible to have a code that you believe supersedes the written law wherever you are and still be considered Lawful.

I've often said that a lot of confusion would have been avoided if they had simply called it Ordered instead of Lawful. "Ordered Good" leaves a lot less room for misinterpretation.


Plus, if I can offer a bit of a weird philosophical opinion here... even Chaotic individuals tend to be ordered. If a chaotic person is motivated by what they themselves want, then they're still obeying a kind of implicit order: "serve yourself always". If a chaotic person devotes their life to "sticking it to the man", that, too is ordered. Personally, I don't define an ordered mindset as being Lawful until they start actively creating an order that doesn't come naturally to them and then commit to adhering to it.As long as I'm quoting....



....
Because almost everyone has a personal code of some sort; Robin Hood had a personal code, and he's the poster child for Chaotic Good. The reason his code doesn't rise to the level of Lawful is that he would be willing to bend it in a pinch. And since he's already bucking all the societal traditions of his civilization, there are no additional penalties or punishments for him breaking his own code. He's unlikely to beat himself up if he needs to violate his own principles for the Greater Good; he'll justify it to himself as doing what needed to be done, maybe sigh wistfully once, and then get on with his next adventure.

Conversely, a Lawful character who obeys society's traditions has a ready-made source of punishment should he break those standards. If such a character does stray, she can maintain her Lawfulness by submitting to the proper authorities for judgment. Turning yourself in effectively atones for the breaking of the code, undoing (or at least mitigating) the non-Lawful act.

The WotC article on Law and Chaos (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20050325a) is generally worth a read too.

[Ironsmith]

In situations where "law" coincides with "legitimate authority", sure. They're not synonymous, however.


As long as I'm quoting....




The WotC article on Law and Chaos (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sg/20050325a) is generally worth a read too.

I see what you're getting at here. It's more "obeys a code of some sort, whether internally generated or accepted from an external source, up to and including punitive measures", as opposed to "ordered". My main objection was that "ordered" was too broad a definition to prevent everyone from being considered Lawful.

[Elenna]

There's a minor wrinkle in that theory, and it's to do with the fact that at the high point of her career, Sigdi was only a sergeant... well above poverty, obviously, but not exactly flowing with gold. What follows is that she pulled a reverse Hylgia; inherited a lot of money (legitimately this time) and donated most-all of it to the church.

Alternatively, the wall could be based on cumulative donations... Sigdi can only spare a couple dozen gold pieces at a time, but she's been donating every bit of change she's saved for years.

Do we know she was only a sergeant? I mean, outside the story Durkon was told, which I'm pretty sure is a lie Sigdi told her friends. Note that she met all those friends *after* something happened that made her a destitute single mother. (I don't have time now to go through all the memories looking for evidence).

I'm sure at least part of that story is a lie, because if it's all true I see no reason why she wouldn't just tell Durkon that.

[Ironsmith]

Do we know she was only a sergeant? I mean, outside the story Durkon was told, which I'm pretty sure is a lie Sigdi told her friends. Note that she met all those friends *after* something happened that made her a destitute single mother. (I don't have time now to go through all the memories looking for evidence).

I'm sure at least part of that story is a lie, because if it's all true I see no reason why she wouldn't just tell Durkon that.

Well, we don't know for sure, since that was only a story told to us and not an actual flashback, but for now, that's the narrative we have.

[Ikuryo]

Sigdi left an arranged marriage after bankrupting the clan that forced her into it and donated all the money she got from that to the church. Durkon was a product of that marriage.

Gives her a way of relating to Hilgya, and why no one wants to talk about it.

(This is complete speculation with no source for fact and this post is just made to humor myself)
(I will be really surprised if I'm right though)

[Ironsmith]

Sigdi left an arranged marriage after bankrupting the clan that forced her into it and donated all the money she got from that to the church. Durkon was a product of that marriage.

Gives her a way of relating to Hilgya, and why no one wants to talk about it.

(This is complete speculation with no source for fact and this post is just made to humor myself)
(I will be really surprised if I'm right though)

And Tenrin's a vampire these days.

[Fish]

I just have to ask: is that dragon-blood troll ... still buried under that rockfall? Could it still be alive?

[Ironsmith]

I just have to ask: is that dragon-blood troll ... still buried under that rockfall? Could it still be alive?

Even if the rock fall itself didn't kill it (the regeneration rules are a bit ambiguous in that regard), it may still have suffocated or starved. It's most likely dead.

[eilandesq]

I just have to ask: is that dragon-blood troll ... still buried under that rockfall? Could it still be alive?

It would have died by starvation and thirst--if not quickly by suffocation--by now: regeneration doesn't help with those:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#regeneration

[KorvinStarmast]

I've often said that a lot of confusion would have been avoided if they had simply called it Ordered instead of Lawful. "Ordered Good" leaves a lot less room for misinterpretation. But that wasn't where Law and Chaos came from. (Moorcock, Poul Anderson speculative fiction). The problem began when someone with a partial understanding of philosophy implanted the two axis alignment into the game as a mechanic and role playing guide. The existential nature of the Law vs Chaos cosmic forces was lost when the decision to imbed the recognizable Good and Evil (which is all over story telling across many cultural archetypes) into it.

[2D8HP]

But that wasn't where Law and Chaos came from. (Moorcock, Poul Anderson speculative fiction). The problem began when someone with a partial understanding of philosophy implanted the two axis alignment into the game as a mechanic and role playing guide. The existential nature of the Law vs Chaos cosmic forces was lost when the decision to imbed the recognizable Good and Evil (which is all over story telling across many cultural archetypes) into it.


Preach it!

Trying to square the circle of Anderson's Elves (agents of Chaos), with Tolkien's Elves (agents of good), has led to headaches.

[The MunchKING]

It would have died by starvation and thirst--if not quickly by suffocation--by now: regeneration doesn't help with those:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#regeneration

Dragons can last a LONG time on a tiny amount of food compared to their size....

Suffocation may or may not be the answer though.

[Riftwolf]

I'm not sure why everyone's arguing about lying when the vampire has no reason whatsoever to lie, or even subvert the promise. He explicitly says the baby is of no threat to him, he believes the world will end in a few hours so it won't matter anyway, and he was the one who suggested the promise in the first place. And if he does subvert it (which is highly unlikely due to the wording), Durkon can say he's broken the promise (as there's no neutral adjudicator) and continue to show memories that distract or mislead.

But then again, this is the forum, and I've seen someone alignment-lawyering with the Gestapo, so I'm not sure why the argument should have anything to do with the comic anymore.

[Ulthwithian]

Well, a couple of things.

First, I don't think we should lose sight of the fact that Durkula wants to not be bothered by memories. Therefore, it is something that he thinks would be good for him. So, that's a thing.

Regarding Sigdi and Durkon, one of the most plausible explanations is that Sigdi was given a massive settlement/'workplace compensation' (Lawful, recall) payment and rather than using it to help herself, she donated it to the Temple of Thor to give her son a place there. I don't recall how much we might know about the requirements to get into 'Cleric school', but donating large sums of money to an institution to secure your child's place there is a well-established pattern IRL. And it would help to explain Durkon's position on any number of topics, certainly WRT Hilgya.

Regarding his father, it could be something as simple as he learned on his first day the disposition of dwarven souls, and he was concerned/frightened that his father may not have gone to Thor, but rather to Hel, and that requires more information than Sigdi was willing to divulge earlier.

Finally, it should be noted that the original reason for Durkon's exile is well known, but something that I think has been overlooked is that the HPoThor knew Durkon quite well enough to accurately predict his reaction. 'That kid's so Lawful', etc., etc. Durkon doesn't exactly put his best foot forward. So I think the reason the HPoT knew Durkon so well and his traits was because of something in Durkon's past that Durkon reacted against.

[Kashem]

I like this theory.
And if/when it turns out to be about his father dying without honor, it means it's pretty likely to involve Hela as well. Maybe his mother told him a secret about the pantheon that not even Hela knows- maybe "dying honorably" turns out to be more broad a definition than she was led to believe. It could be something his mother made up to make him feel better, but Hela/Greg may not be willing to take the chance.
Or something.

I really like this theory a lot, and it really got me thinking: There are any number of things that we've been operating on as assumptions that were never actually stated, most of which derive from 1083 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1083.html)
Thor would probably rather just lose the bet than let Hel become more powerful than Odin. He could just intentionally back out, and pay up (whatever it is), and he would likely gain dominion over all of the souls of his worshipers, honor or not. Hel would then gain default dominion over her own worshipers, which would likely be nobody. The world would then end, and all of the other gods would end up with their fair share of followers, except Hel, who would get nothing (except the ability to make clerics among the living in a world that no longer exists).

My bet though? Durkon learned that day what the spoils of the bet were, and that they were something dumb (like 10gp, or just pure bragging rights, or they have to let Hel into Valhalla or something). It already said in 1083 that Thor told the dwarves about the bet. It would be reasonable that he would tell them about the spoils as well.

[Fyraltari]

Uh oh. Lurkon is unto Durkon.


As much as I like the idea of lowest-point Durkon having enough standards that there are boundaries even Greg wouldn't cross, I'm afraid the current situation points away from that interpretation... I don't think Durkon would hurt his infant son on his worst day, either. For that matter, the worst he would do on his worst day is... say mean stuff about the clergy of Thor. I think Greg's proven there's quite the substantial gap between the two of them.

That being said, I'm not sure that Greg is so static that Durkon would be unable to dissuade him from his plan somehow. I don't think this memory is just for stalling.
I think the implications of this strip were that Durkon did not do anymore than shout impotently at the wind was because shouting impotently at the wind was all he could physically do at the time. When he shouted "Damn ye all ta Hel", I think that should the Directors have popped up in front of him with a deal that would have allowed him to do just that he would have taken it. Because at that very moment, and for no longer than this very moment he was Durkon*.
Is there lines that Lurkon won't cross? Maybe, maybe not. I doubt we'll see them.


The current Order of the Stick has two clerics, neither of which is Durkon.
I don't think either Minrah or Hilgya would call themselves members of the Order. Or that any member would call them anything else than "native auxiliary/local volunteer" and "ally of circumstance" respectively.

The Order of the Stick has one Cleric and that he is currently being held prisoner by an aberration of nature pledged to a dark goddes bent on world destruction is not stopping him from doing everything he can to aid his teammates. Because the job still needs doing, he can't allow himself to die just yet.


Given that .he's a servant of Hel even more thoroughly than your average living cleric.
I am not sure he is that loyal to Hel. She gives him magical powers and her plan happens to be hurting those he hates so he is happy to work for her but his decision to confront Roy despite being ordered not to signals to me that his agenda comes first.

I agree with the rest of what you've said though.




Did we determine Tarquin was evil? I thought we settled on the darker side of LN.
Ah! Nice.


I'm just going to put this prediction here right now. Durkon's memory will be:

Him learning the truth about his dad. The real story: not the one he was told. That's the story everyone knows, but his ma told everyone not to tell him. Why? Why not tell Durkon that his father died honorably to save others? Because it's not the truth. Durkon's mom knows the truth, and it isn't pretty, and something that happened at the temple is going to make Durkon bring it up, and the truth is going to come out.

This is the most logical topic for the memory. We know Durkon's father is important: we know something is up with the story, since there is no reason his mom wouldn't want Durkon to hear about his death if it was really so honorable. I don't know how this will affect the battle, if at all. But from a story point of view, it seems like the most logical next step.

# Durkons Daddy was a priest/follower of Loki

sch

I'm sure Durkon's father will come up again, maybe now, but I have no idea how that might impact the plot.
I expect the fact that Greg pronounces "something" as "somethin'" in the third-last panel of 963 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0963.html)will help somehow, but I have no idea how.

Something will definitely happen with the fact that Durkon's exile is over (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1024.html), but I don't expect that to be relevant until Greg is dusted and they have to figure out what Hilgya and Kudzu are going to do. Mostly because I can't think of any way it might be relevant to the fight.

Now's probably a good time to point out that one of those names is in fact:
Sigdi Thundershield.

The one above it is Shirra Copperbottom, which may be Sigdi's friend.

Here's the font. (http://www.blambot.com/font_dwarfspirits.shtml)
Dun dun dun!
I think this is the right idea.

20 golds say Sigdi only ever made one donation to the Church. That was the money she inherited when Durkon's dad died but either because of the way he died or (most likely) of the way the money was earned (through unsavory means like robbery extorsion or mybe even murder ; especially if he was a Lokite) she thought it would not be honorable for her to enjoy this money and gave it to the Church so that it would do some good.
Hence being a Dwarf is about doing your duty, especially if it makes you miserable. Just more literally than we thought.


How does she hold that bowl with only one arm?
She presses it against her chest.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Given the placement, more likely the abdomen.

[Kashem]

My Best translation on the wall of very rich donors:

No Really, this is probably a real spoiler.

As an aside, the name directly above Durkon's head in 1112 could actually plausibly be "Sigdi Thundershield" from what I can see of it.
It is blurred to heck, but what I can check lines up.

S _ G _ _ [SPACE] T _ _ N _ E R S _ _ E L D are the letters that I can make out clearly enough to translate. Whoever came up with that, dang. Good eyes.
All of the other letters are appropriately shaped to be what they need to be, but are just too blurry for me to make them out properly.

[Jasdoif]

Thor would probably rather just lose the bet than let Hel become more powerful than Odin. He could just intentionally back out, and pay up (whatever it is), and he would likely gain dominion over all of the souls of his worshipers, honor or not. Hel would then gain default dominion over her own worshipers, which would likely be nobody. The world would then end, and all of the other gods would end up with their fair share of followers, except Hel, who would get nothing (except the ability to make clerics among the living in a world that no longer exists).You make a very good case for a scenario where Hel refuses to let Thor out of the bet, assuming ending the bet prematurely is even an option. Additionally, you make a very good case for a scenario where the Western and Southern Gods should expect the Northern Gods to renege on anything they ever say the instant it's inconvenient for them to uphold their word.

[Kish]

Not to mention the case for the current book ending with, "Just kidding--the heroes didn't need to do anything."

[Ironsmith]

Not to mention the case for the current book ending with, "Just kidding--the heroes didn't need to do anything."

Adding to that case: Dvalin said he would obey the will of the clans. If the clan heads are being dominated, there's no way of knowing what their actual will is, and thanks to Gontor's blabbing, Dvalin knows that the vampires intend to dominate them. So either Dvalin takes a guess ("No! Are you freaking nuts?!") or delays voting as long as the vampires are a problem... and while the vote's unresolved, the world's not being destroyed.

[Fish]

I've been making a list of all the details I could extract from Durkon's flashbacks. I'm going to put them in a spoiler box, not because they're spoilers, but because seeing them all in one place might give people ideas about the plot that they'd rather not imagine just yet.

Details are listed chronologically, as best as I can work out.

After they are married, Tenrin asks Sigdi if she'd like to meet under "Thor's starry sky."
Sigdi prepares her party with flaming weapons against the dragon-blood troll.
When Durkon was a child, Sigdi says "your pa used to look up at the sky."
Sigdi risks her own life to save an unnamed dwarf from dying dishonorably (falling off a ladder).
Sigdi refuses to allow Thirden from telling the story of how Tenrin died, specifically whether he died with or without honor.
Sigdi didn't know how to cook ("can barely boil water") before Durkon was born. However, since Durkon's birth she has been holding dinners every Wednesday (the day before Thor's day).
Sigdi's name is on the list of "very rich donors" for Thor's temple, even though she can't afford the donation to Odin's temple to have her arm restored.
Durkon does not thank his mother for any specific element of his clerical training, the way he thanks others for training in mythology, use of armor, etc.
Sigdi doesn't look proud that her son was ordained a cleric of Thor. She passes this off as discomfort about the debt she owes for the dress.
Though poor, Sigdi didn't want the free dress she was entitled to by the bylaws of Thor's church. She accepted it as a gift from Shirra.

My conclusion:
Durkon's mother was a cleric of Loki before Tenrin's death. She does not talk about Thor until after Tenrin is gone; she says "your pa used to look up at the sky," not we. Sigdi prepares her team with flaming weapons, where flame is Loki's personal trick.

Tenrin dies with dishonor, which Sigdi never cared about before as a devotee of Loki. (Perhaps that is why she doesn't want to discuss it — it's not part of her faith.)

After his death, she devoted herself to raising Durkon as a cleric of Thor (even though it made her miserable). She holds feasts on the evening before Thor's holy day. She even learns to cook (she says she can "barely boil water" before having Durkon — and what boils water? fire). Why did she learn to cook? Because as a cleric with two hands, she could create food magically (create food and water has somatic components; presumably can't be cast by a one-armed caster). She risks her life to save a dwarf from Tenrin's fate, death without honor, which is something she doesn't even believe in herself; she's setting a good example for Durkon. She's not proud when Durkon is ordained as a cleric of Thor, and refuses the dress she's entitled to (until it is reframed as a gift from Shirra).

And I think Durkon knows it now, too. He's watched all those memories again, and he's figured things out that he hadn't known or noticed before. Durkon is going to have reconcile his having placed her on a pedestal with her similarity to Hilgya.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Adding to that case: Dvalin said he would obey the will of the clans. If the clan heads are being dominated, there's no way of knowing what their actual will is, and thanks to Gontor's blabbing, Dvalin knows that the vampires intend to dominate them. So either Dvalin takes a guess ("No! Are you freaking nuts?!") or delays voting as long as the vampires are a problem... and while the vote's unresolved, the world's not being destroyed.

The gods can't hear any of the mortals at the Godsmoot and anyway Dvalin's guy had left already.

[D.One]

Adding to that case: Dvalin said he would obey the will of the clans. If the clan heads are being dominated, there's no way of knowing what their actual will is, and thanks to Gontor's blabbing, Dvalin knows that the vampires intend to dominate them. So either Dvalin takes a guess ("No! Are you freaking nuts?!") or delays voting as long as the vampires are a problem... and while the vote's unresolved, the world's not being destroyed.

This point has already been raised, don't remember to what conclusion.

One thing notewhorty is that the Gods only hear themselves, not the mortals in the Godsmoot, so Dvalin didn't quite hear Gontor's blabbing. That said, all the clerics there heard, and someone must have sent a message to dwarvenlands in order for them to assemble the council of the clans. Didn't they find reasonable to add a "PS: beware of the vampires trying to rig the vote."

[Fyraltari]

Adding to that case: Dvalin said he would obey the will of the clans. If the clan heads are being dominated, there's no way of knowing what their actual will is, and thanks to Gontor's blabbing, Dvalin knows that the vampires intend to dominate them. So either Dvalin takes a guess ("No! Are you freaking nuts?!") or delays voting as long as the vampires are a problem... and while the vote's unresolved, the world's not being destroyed.
Dvalin couldn't hear the Exexarch (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0998.html).


I've been making a list of all the details I could extract from Durkon's flashbacks. I'm going to put them in a spoiler box, not because they're spoilers, but because seeing them all in one place might give people ideas about the plot that they'd rather not imagine just yet.

Details are listed chronologically, as best as I can work out.

After they are married, Tenrin asks Sigdi if she'd like to meet under "Thor's starry sky."
Sigdi prepares her party with flaming weapons against the dragon-blood troll.
When Durkon was a child, Sigdi says "your pa used to look up at the sky."
Sigdi risks her own life to save an unnamed dwarf from dying dishonorably (falling off a ladder).
Sigdi refuses to allow Thirden from telling the story of how Tenrin died, specifically whether he died with or without honor.
Sigdi didn't know how to cook ("can barely boil water") before Durkon was born. However, since Durkon's birth she has been holding dinners every Wednesday (the day before Thor's day).
Sigdi's name is on the list of "very rich donors" for Thor's temple, even though she can't afford the donation to Odin's temple to have her arm restored.
Durkon does not thank his mother for any specific element of his clerical training, the way he thanks others for training in mythology, use of armor, etc.
Sigdi doesn't look proud that her son was ordained a cleric of Thor. She passes this off as discomfort about the debt she owes for the dress.
Though poor, Sigdi didn't want the free dress she was entitled to by the bylaws of Thor's church. She accepted it as a gift from Shirra.

My conclusion:
Durkon's mother was a cleric of Loki before Tenrin's death. She does not talk about Thor until after Tenrin is gone; she says "your pa used to look up at the sky," not we. Sigdi prepares her team with flaming weapons, where flame is Loki's personal trick.

Tenrin dies with dishonor, which Sigdi never cared about before as a devotee of Loki. (Perhaps that is why she doesn't want to discuss it — it's not part of her faith.)

After his death, she devoted herself to raising Durkon as a cleric of Thor (even though it made her miserable). She holds feasts on the evening before Thor's holy day. She even learns to cook (she says she can "barely boil water" before having Durkon — and what boils water? fire). Why did she learn to cook? Because as a cleric with two hands, she could create food magically (create food and water has somatic components; presumably can't be cast by a one-armed caster). She risks her life to save a dwarf from Tenrin's fate, death without honor, which is something she doesn't even believe in herself; she's setting a good example for Durkon. She's not proud when Durkon is ordained as a cleric of Thor, and refuses the dress she's entitled to (until it is reframed as a gift from Shirra).

And I think Durkon knows it now, too. He's watched all those memories again, and he's figured things out that he hadn't known or noticed before. Durkon is going to have reconcile his having placed her on a pedestal with her similarity to Hilgya.

In my opinion the "it's a little-known church bylaw" is just Thirden joking. I really don't think there is more to this particular scene than what we were shown: Sigdi is the kind of persons that loathes the idea of "living off someone's back" and not"pulling her own weight" (which make sense given that Dwarven society appears to have a collectivist streak to it) and insists on considering every gift that is given to her as something she must repay no matter how asymetrical the situation (her friends are clearly better off thans she is (they all have two arms for a start)).

You also seem to forget that fire is explicitly available (www.giantctp.com/comics/oots0954.html) to any and all Clerics.

It is possible that Sigdi had a 180° personnality switch after Terin's death but it would needsome serious storytelling to sell it.

Not that The Giant doesn't have those but still.

[D.One]

... and anyway Dvalin's guy had left already.

No, he didn't (panel 2) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1023.html).

[b_jonas]

The real question for me is whether the 'no time jumps' also applies to the audience. If the next 10 comics are all Durkon washing up for supper... :smallannoyed: It probably doesn't. Recall #458 in which Sabine explains how time jumps in the comic strip works (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html). Since the dialog in #1121 already establishes that there'll be twenty minutes of washing up, those twenty minutes will pass between this strip and the next one (unless something really interesting happens during washing up of course).

[Kashem]

Not to mention the case for the current book ending with, "Just kidding--the heroes didn't need to do anything."

Kinda. Backing out of the bet right before the apocalypse isn't really a good ending for the heroes. Yeah, all of the dwarves don't end up being tortured for eternity by Hel, and that's great, but still...

The entirety of creation gets killed in that scenario. I can pretty definitely call that a loss. I don't think we're pulling a "Raiders of the lost ark" level of "The heroes are totally pointless." here. Besides, Thor doesn't want to HAVE to lose the bet, so he'll hold out hope for the Order as long as it is reasonable.

I do think that would be why Dvalin wouldn't just say, "OK, just No." Dvalin strikes me as the kind of god that is so lawful that it would cause him to cease to exist if he did not keep his word on a promise that he made ages ago under completely different circumstances.

[Fish]

You also seem to forget that fire is explicitly available (www.giantctp.com/comics/oots0954.html) to any and all Clerics.
You seem to be under the impression that this point invalidates the theory. It does not. Fire suggests Loki without ruling out any other deity. If there had been only one possible god involved in providing that flame, there would be no mystery; even Durkula could have worked it out by process of elimination.

And
there wouldn't be much reason for Durkon's mantra, "do your duty even if it makes you miserable," if Durkon's mother had been doing what made her happy. Clearly, her son becoming a cleric of Thor did not make her happy. Clearly she was hiding the story of Tenrin's death, and whether he died with or without honor, for a reason. The confluence of {death with (dis)honor, fire magic, and not-Thor} = Loki, not some other deity.

Since we're pretty clear on the idea that Durkula cannot link the meaning of disparate memories, it stands to reason that the disparate memories will have something hidden in them. I propose this as being reasonable, given what we know.

[Jasdoif]

Not to mention the case for the current book ending with, "Just kidding--the heroes didn't need to do anything."To be fair, I could buy an in-between case where the battle doesn't play out the way the Order is expecting it to (maybe something straightforward like HPoH bailing on an apparently unwinnable fight to go after the Gate rather than the council, intending to get the gods to destroy the world to save their own skins despite Hel losing at the Godsmoot; and every vampire the Order defeats now is a vampire that can't contribute later).



But I find it very important to remember the gods are playing a variant of mutual assured destruction: The purpose of the Godsmoots and related byzantine protocol is to avoid creating another deicidal Snarl; an explicit breach of agreement carries an implicit "risking my otherwise-eternal life, and those of other deities" factor...and by extension, informs the other deities that there's nothing for them to gain in an agreement since it'll be broken even with that risk on the table.

The Northern gods might collectively be fine with backstabbing Hel to avoid her dreams of being "The Queen of the Northern Pantheon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1000.html)", what with her becoming the queen of them and all...but would the Western gods? The Southern gods? Is having to stand under Hel rather than Odin really worth having to risk their lives every time they want to decide something about the next world, since "they eviscerated one of their own by breaking an agreement at the last moment" will be fresh in everyone's mind?

It's a big part of why most of the Northern gods only care about "worshippers" in an abstract sense (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html), I think. Once a god is gone, they're gone; but they can throw down some more mortals to serve as worshippers. And Hel's ongoing existence shows the gods' subsistence level (if there is in fact a minimum) is pretty dang low. It's a rather straightforward "if one of us must die, I choose them, on account of them not being me" view.

[hamishspence]

And
there wouldn't be much reason for Durkon's mantra, "do your duty even if it makes you miserable," if Durkon's mother had been doing what made her happy. Clearly, her son becoming a cleric of Thor did not make her happy.

I think two things are being conflated together erroneously here.

I think "I've never been prouder of my boy" can be taken at face value in this case. And that "misery-making duty" had nothing to do with Durkon becoming a cleric - it had to do with other things.

[Ironsmith]

You seem to be under the impression that this point invalidates the theory. It does not. Fire suggests Loki without ruling out any other deity. If there had been only one possible god involved in providing that flame, there would be no mystery; even Durkula could have worked it out by process of elimination.

And
there wouldn't be much reason for Durkon's mantra, "do your duty even if it makes you miserable," if Durkon's mother had been doing what made her happy. Clearly, her son becoming a cleric of Thor did not make her happy. Clearly she was hiding the story of Tenrin's death, and whether he died with or without honor, for a reason. The confluence of {death with (dis)honor, fire magic, and not-Thor} = Loki, not some other deity.

Since we're pretty clear on the idea that Durkula cannot link the meaning of disparate memories, it stands to reason that the disparate memories will have something hidden in them. I propose this as being reasonable, given what we know.

It's possible to interpret the "do your duty" mantra as an extension of Sigdi honoring Tenrin after his death; the guy did his duty up until the point when he died, which clearly wasn't pleasant for him. Or that could just be an old mantra of hers in general; military training seldom fits conventional molds of "happy", and in the case of the dwarves, duty would be an especially big reason to get involved in said military.

However, Tenrin's death being dishonorable, I'm willing to believe. Sigdi hiding the reason for it, I'm willing to believe. That one or both of them might have had Cleric levels, even, I'd believe (and it would explain why she's not happy about Durkon becoming a Cleric, if you believe that's what's going on)... she worries for her son's safety.

[Fyraltari]

You seem to be under the impression that this point invalidates the theory. It does not. Fire suggests Loki without ruling out any other deity. If there had been only one possible god involved in providing that flame, there would be no mystery; even Durkula could have worked it out by process of elimination.

It also suggest Sunna (Goddess of the Sun) and Surtur (Lord of the Fire Giants).


And
there wouldn't be much reason for Durkon's mantra, "do your duty even if it makes you miserable," if Durkon's mother had been doing what made her happy.
Are you saying that insisting on paying back gifts from friends despite being a one-armed (probably) jobless single mother living in near destitution or, as I proposed before, giving away considerable wealth because she thought she could not in good conscience enjoy said money is not "doing your duty even if it makes you miserable" or that she is somehow enjoying it?


Clearly, her son becoming a cleric of Thor did not make her happy
thatis not clear to me. She gives a perfectly valid reason not to be enjoying the feast* 100% and look as proud and happy as a stick figure can look during the actual ordination (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1086.html). If anyone looks grumpy it's the grandfather (is he Sigdi's father or Tenrin's by the way?).


Clearly she was hiding the story of Tenrin's death, and whether he died with or without honor, for a reason. The confluence of {death with (dis)honor, fire magic, and not-Thor} = Loki, not some other deity.
Agree, there is something fishy. About Tenrin, not Sigdi.



Since we're pretty clear on the idea that Durkula cannot link the meaning of disparate memories, it stands to reason that the disparate memories will have something hidden in them. I propose this as being reasonable, given what we know.
I agree. However if your theory is: Sigdi had her squad use (we don't even know if they made them themselves, they could very well have brought them with them from Firmament) fire-enchanted weapons against an ennemy that they knew would regenerate every wound not made with fire or acid (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0991.html), there is something wrong with the story of Tenrin's death (which is also where the fire comes in) and she wasn't able to stop thinking about her problems when her son became a Cleric therefore she may have been a Lokite, then you will forgive me if I don't find it very likely.

*We can add to that the possiblity of her being afraid that Durkon is wasting his life trying to fix hers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0983.html).

[D.One]

thatis not clear to me. She gives a perfectly valid reason not to be enjoying the feast* 100% and look as proud and happy as a stick figure can look during the actual ordination (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1086.html). If anyone looks grumpy it's the grandfather (is he Sigdi's father or Tenrin's by the way?).




Agreed. She seems pretty happy, and he seems pretty grateful to her (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1088.html).

[Fish]

It also suggest Sunna (Goddess of the Sun) and Surtur (Lord of the Fire Giants).
My point is only that if there had been only one possibility, Durkula (and, indeed, everyone on the forum) could have immediately made the correct conclusion. It isn't just Durkula that the Giant has to fool; it's us, the audience. He may be giving us hints, but without seeming to.

Are you saying that insisting on paying back gifts from friends despite being a one-armed (probably) jobless single mother living in near destitution or, as I proposed before, giving away considerable wealth because she thought she could not in good conscience enjoy said money is not "doing your duty even if it makes you miserable" or that she is somehow enjoying it?
That's a lot of grammatical disjunctions to unpack. I can't tell where you intend to separate your clauses.

In any case, I'm not suggesting that my theory is the only explanation for "do your duty, even if it makes you miserable." I'm saying it is consistent with it. That is all. There may be other explanations.

thatis not clear to me. She gives a perfectly valid reason not to be enjoying the feast
And I consider her excuse just that: an excuse. Someone observed that Sigdi didn't look proud, and perhaps we should ask whether there is some truth in it. You apparently accept her justification without further question. I don't.

Agree, there is something fishy. About Tenrin, not Sigdi.
I feel there is much greater narrative power in having Sigdi be the person with the secret double life. For one thing, Durkon thinks he knows her; for another, Durkon can talk to her. It puts the Tenrin-Sigdi relationship and the Durkon-Hilgya relationship on precisely the same footing and makes Kudzu a proxy for Durkon's own upbringing: Cleric of Loki mother, absent father. It makes Durkon re-visit his opinion of Hilgya, for whom he now has someone to use as a comparator. Also, it allows Sigdi to embody Durkon's central philosophy and that of his god's mortal enemy simultaneously, while honoring his own chosen deity that his mother specifically hand-raised him to follow. In my view, there's a lot more story meat on those bones.

What do we get from a revelation about Durkon's father? "Son, the man you never knew isn't the man you never knew. You remember all those stories you were never meant to hear because I told people not to tell you? It's time to tell you about them." "Oh no! You lied to me and kept secrets from me, which I already knew, because you were already keeping secrets from me." It's not terribly dramatic by comparison. It takes the dramatic tension on Tenrin, who cannot be present for the reveal, and places it on Sigdi in the form of hearsay. The urgency that Durkon is home outweighs the urgency of a hundred-year-old secret. Durkon has no reason to ask "Hey, are you willing to tell me about Dad now?" because nothing has changed. It doesn't put Hilgya in a sympathetic light. It doesn't draw the same parallels; in fact, it suggests that Durkon should take the child away from Hilgya and raise it himself, to guarantee Kudzu follows in Thor's path, because that's how his own mother raised him.

Of course, the Giant is quite capable of writing a good story, in whichever direction he chooses to take it, and I'm confident he would do well no matter where the story is headed. I can't rule out anything about Tenrin Thundershield, and I'm not saying it's impossible for that story to be good. I personally see more potential the other way.

However if your theory is: Sigdi had her squad use ... fire-enchanted weapons against an ennemy that they knew would regenerate every wound not made with fire or acid [link removed], there is something wrong with the story of Tenrin's death ... and she wasn't able to stop thinking about her problems when her son became a Cleric therefore she may have been a Lokite, then you will forgive me if I don't find it very likely.
I wouldn't phrase it that way, no. I would phrase it "Tenrin would have wanted his son to follow in his footsteps, and Sigdi loved him, so she vowed to raise Durkon in that way regardless of the personal cost." But if you want to reduce it to that, sure, have it your way. I suppose it won't be long before we see what's really going on.

As for "something wrong with the story of Tenrin's death," I agree: we haven't been told everything, but I don't see how the gaps in story specifically prove or disprove any theory about Sigdi or Tenrin. They're missing facts, not dispositive ones.

[KorvinStarmast]

In any case, I'm not suggesting that my theory is the only explanation for "do your duty, even if it makes you miserable." I'm saying it is consistent with it. That is all. There may be other explanations. I enjoyed your musing, and will be interested to see how close you got.

[Fyraltari]

My point is only that if there had been only one possibility, Durkula (and, indeed, everyone on the forum) could have immediately made the correct conclusion. It isn't just Durkula that the Giant has to fool; it's us, the audience. He may be giving us hints, but without seeming to.
Alright.


That's a lot of grammatical disjunctions to unpack. I can't tell where you intend to separate your clauses.
Are you saying

(insisting on paying back gifts from friends despite being a one-armed (probably) jobless single mother living in near destitution) / (giving away considerable wealth because she thought she could not in good conscience enjoy said money) is not "doing your duty even if it makes you miserable" or*

Sigdi is enjoying the ()/() above?
*This is an inclusive "or".
In any case, I'm not suggesting that my theory is the only explanation for "do your duty, even if it makes you miserable." I'm saying it is consistent with it. That is all. There may be other explanations.


And I consider her excuse just that: an excuse. Someone observed that Sigdi didn't look proud, and perhaps we should ask whether there is some truth in it. You apparently accept her justification without further question. I don't.
I tend to assume that people that when character give information that is consistent with everything else and we are not given reasons to doubt their word (considering how Durkon turned out to be, I think it is safe to say that Sigdi's education did not emphatize deceitas much as honesty) they are telling the truth.



I feel there is much greater narrative power in having Sigdi be the person with the secret double life. For one thing, Durkon thinks he knows her; for another, Durkon can talk to her. It puts the Tenrin-Sigdi relationship and the Durkon-Hilgya relationship on precisely the same footing and makes Kudzu a proxy for Durkon's own upbringing: Cleric of Loki mother, absent father. It makes Durkon re-visit his opinion of Hilgya, for whom he now has someone to use as a comparator. Also, it allows Sigdi to embody Durkon's central philosophy and that of his god's mortal enemy simultaneously, while honoring his own chosen deity that his mother specifically hand-raised him to follow. In my view, there's a lot more story meat on those bones.
I disagree. Remember that this memory already happened by the time of Dorukan's Dungeon, whatever revelation we are about to see, he already knew when he spurned Hilgya. So it would be inconsistent for this revelation to be that Thor and Loki's teachings can cohabit in a single person.
If say, the story was that Tenrin and Sigdi discovering her pregnancy had a severe argument about their relationship and the way Durkon was to be raised and that argument was somehow partially responsible for Tenrin's death (feeling rejected by Sigdi he threw himself into unnecessary danger, for example) then this memory, combined with Kudzu's existence would prompt Durkon to re-evaluate his treatment of Hilgya (in a "don't repeat the error of his parents" way).



What do we get from a revelation about Durkon's father? "Son, the man you never knew isn't the man you never knew. You remember all those stories you were never meant to hear because I told people not to tell you? It's time to tell you about them." "Oh no! You lied to me and kept secrets from me, which I already knew, because you were already keeping secrets from me." It's not terribly dramatic by comparison. It takes the dramatic tension on Tenrin, who cannot be present for the reveal, and places it on Sigdi in the form of hearsay.
Dead parents are often a major influence on their kids. It is so easy to idealize someone who isn't there. Also Durkon's line of "it be interesting" coupled with Sigdi's name on the wall would indicate that he would initiate the conversation.


The urgency that Durkon is home outweighs the urgency of a hundred-year-old secret.
What urgency? This is a memory we are talking about, Durkon has known this since before the comic started.


Durkon has no reason to ask "Hey, are you willing to tell me about Dad now?" because nothing has changed. It doesn't put Hilgya in a sympathetic light. It doesn't draw the same parallels; in fact, it suggests that Durkon should take the child away from Hilgya and raise it himself, to guarantee Kudzu follows in Thor's path, because that's how his own mother raised him.
See above.


Of course, the Giant is quite capable of writing a good story, in whichever direction he chooses to take it, and I'm confident he would do well no matter where the story is headed. I can't rule out anything about Tenrin Thundershield, and I'm not saying it's impossible for that story to be good. I personally see more potential the other way.
Seconded but the other way around.


I wouldn't phrase it that way, no. I would phrase it "Tenrin would have wanted his son to follow in his footsteps, and Sigdi loved him, so she vowed to raise Durkon in that way regardless of the personal cost."
The thing is I really don't see anything that would suggest Sigdi is only pretending to be the second-best dwarf to ever dwarf even if for her son's and late husband's sakes. Then again maybe it's just that I don't like the reveals of "absolutely everything you knew about that character was a lie". It just destroys all emotionnal involvment you had with them


But if you want to reduce it to that, sure, have it your way. I suppose it won't be long before we see what's really going on.
Wait and see.


As for "something wrong with the story of Tenrin's death," I agree: we haven't been told everything, but I don't see how the gaps in story specifically prove or disprove any theory about Sigdi or Tenrin. They're missing facts, not dispositive ones.
Oh they don't (dis)prove anything this is just sterile speculation, but what else could we do waiting for the next comic An archive binge?
And should your theory turn out tobe the right one I trust the Giant to pull it out with maestria.
I am just, respectfully, pointing out why Idon't believe it will.

[Ruck]

*We can add to that the possiblity of her being afraid that Durkon is wasting his life trying to fix hers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0983.html).

...huh. What I noticed this time is that Sigdi specifically says they don't have the money for the regeneration, which will in some way or another be at odds with her status as a major donor to Thor's temple.

[Shining Wrath]

Hypothesis for which I have little evidence:

It's a different Sigdi Thundershield. Specifically, a not-too-distant ancestor of Durkon.

My little evidence:

We know the dwarves practice arranged marriages.
It's not uncommon among tradition-bound cultures for names to be reused among different generations of a family.


Possibly, then, Sigdi was named for an e.g., grandmother who also married into the Thundershield clan (assumption: dwarven women take their husband's last name. If they don't, then it's even easier - she's named for her grandmother, and therefore it doesn't really matter that the dwarves arrange marriages).

And the reason the Thundershield clan is poor is because Grandma Sigdi gave it all away. Consider the real-world practice of giving money to a monastery so they will pray for you or as atonement for some sin or sins. For Reasons, she bankrupted Clan Thundershield giving to the church.

[Manty5]

To atone for being the previous HPOH!

I know, a wacky idea.

[brian 333]

They may count things other than cash as donations. She sacrificed a husband and an arm for Thor.

She may be named after one of Dufkon's great-aunts.

Sigdi and Thundershield may be common names.

And maybe Sigdi's story is about to get some exposition. I can't wait to see.

[schmunzel]

I've been making a list of all the details I could extract from Durkon's flashbacks. I'm going to put them in a spoiler box, not because they're spoilers, but because seeing them all in one place might give people ideas about the plot that they'd rather not imagine just yet.

Details are listed chronologically, as best as I can work out.

After they are married, Tenrin asks Sigdi if she'd like to meet under "Thor's starry sky."
Sigdi prepares her party with flaming weapons against the dragon-blood troll.
When Durkon was a child, Sigdi says "your pa used to look up at the sky."
Sigdi risks her own life to save an unnamed dwarf from dying dishonorably (falling off a ladder).
Sigdi refuses to allow Thirden from telling the story of how Tenrin died, specifically whether he died with or without honor.
Sigdi didn't know how to cook ("can barely boil water") before Durkon was born. However, since Durkon's birth she has been holding dinners every Wednesday (the day before Thor's day).
Sigdi's name is on the list of "very rich donors" for Thor's temple, even though she can't afford the donation to Odin's temple to have her arm restored.
Durkon does not thank his mother for any specific element of his clerical training, the way he thanks others for training in mythology, use of armor, etc.
Sigdi doesn't look proud that her son was ordained a cleric of Thor. She passes this off as discomfort about the debt she owes for the dress.
Though poor, Sigdi didn't want the free dress she was entitled to by the bylaws of Thor's church. She accepted it as a gift from Shirra.

My conclusion:
Durkon's mother was a cleric of Loki before Tenrin's death. She does not talk about Thor until after Tenrin is gone; she says "your pa used to look up at the sky," not we. Sigdi prepares her team with flaming weapons, where flame is Loki's personal trick.

Tenrin dies with dishonor, which Sigdi never cared about before as a devotee of Loki. (Perhaps that is why she doesn't want to discuss it — it's not part of her faith.)

After his death, she devoted herself to raising Durkon as a cleric of Thor (even though it made her miserable). She holds feasts on the evening before Thor's holy day. She even learns to cook (she says she can "barely boil water" before having Durkon — and what boils water? fire). Why did she learn to cook? Because as a cleric with two hands, she could create food magically (create food and water has somatic components; presumably can't be cast by a one-armed caster). She risks her life to save a dwarf from Tenrin's fate, death without honor, which is something she doesn't even believe in herself; she's setting a good example for Durkon. She's not proud when Durkon is ordained as a cleric of Thor, and refuses the dress she's entitled to (until it is reframed as a gift from Shirra).

And I think Durkon knows it now, too. He's watched all those memories again, and he's figured things out that he hadn't known or noticed before. Durkon is going to have reconcile his having placed her on a pedestal with her similarity to Hilgya.


damn it you make some convincing points.
I have some nitpicks though.

1) You do not rush to help somebody risking your life in an instant just to set some random example for your son. Even Rhich explicitely stated that her deeds were because of "thats who dwarves are" (it was more complicated than that, referred to dwarves more in a general sense and I cant find the link, but still)

2) there are Astronomers in Thors temple. They look at the sky. I argue now (in contraray to what I said before (who cares anyway?? )) that Her husband was a follower of Thor, she vowed to raise Durkon in his image because she admired him and/or (or not) lost her faith in Loki


<snip>

And I consider her excuse just that: an excuse. Someone observed that Sigdi didn't look proud, and perhaps we should ask whether there is some truth in it. You apparently accept her justification without further question. I don't.

<snip>

It seems to be important to the story as Rhich seems to put some effort into establishing it (and her defence)

sch

[schmunzel]

<snip>


I disagree. Remember that this memory already happened by the time of Dorukan's Dungeon, whatever revelation we are about to see, he already knew when he spurned Hilgya. So it would be inconsistent for this revelation to be that Thor and Loki's teachings can cohabit in a single person.

<snip>

Sigdi would not necessarily have had to tell the truth


<snip>

What urgency? This is a memory we are talking about, Durkon has known this since before the comic started.

<snip>


Durkon is home *now* (posthumously)

sch

[Ikuryo]

@ Fyraltari

The fact that all of the memories are things Durkon knew doesn't mean much when he never had the time or ability to go back and look them over. There is a large difference between having experienced something first hand and reviewing your entire life passively and being able to learn new things by the relations of memories.

What is revealed next might be something he knew at the time of Durokans dungeon but it might not have ment anything to him at the time. Now, having had more experience and having rewatched much of his life without the urgency of trying to survive, he might be able to pull more from the exchange then he could before.

Just the part with the frog eating Roy let him learn something that he knew before but had not put together yet. What is going to be said over dinner might have a conneciton to something he learned when he was a child but he couldn't put it together at the time.

[Ruck]

They may count things other than cash as donations. She sacrificed a husband and an arm for Thor.

She may be named after one of Dufkon's great-aunts.

Sigdi and Thundershield may be common names.

And maybe Sigdi's story is about to get some exposition. I can't wait to see.

Whatever the explanation, I doubt bolded is it. There's no reason to introduce her name on the wall if "It's just a coincidence" is how it plays out. It's possible it's an ancestor, but again, unless Rich is deliberately trying to confuse us, the explanation that makes the most sense is-- if the name Sigdi Thundershield is on the Wall of Very Rich Donors at Thor's temple, then it's referring to Durkon's mother.

[Ironsmith]

*We can add to that the possiblity of her being afraid that Durkon is wasting his life trying to fix hers (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0983.html).

I like this line of thought. It ties in nicely with observations like "you were a spectator in your own life before I made you a spectator in your own life", for instance.

A possibility, regarding what happened to Tenrin? Exactly what Thirdin said (when you read the subtext, that is). Why does Sigdi not want to talk about it? Because it's a painful story (she lost her husband and her arm that day), and because, as the commanding officer in that mission, she's more vulnerable to survivor's guilt than anyone else. That goes double for a society as honor-bound as the dwarves.

[Mandor]

Whatever the explanation, I doubt bolded is it. There's no reason to introduce her name on the wall if "It's just a coincidence" is how it plays out. It's possible it's an ancestor, but again, unless Rich is deliberately trying to confuse us, the explanation that makes the most sense is-- if the name Sigdi Thundershield is on the Wall of Very Rich Donors at Thor's temple, then it's referring to Durkon's mother.

I agree that is the most probable explanation, and it should certainly be the default hypothesis.
Especially given the "interestin'" remark by Durkon. That's practically beggin' for the next sentence to be "So let's talk, ma."

But it's not implausible that it's Durkon's Grandmother, etc. There has literally been NO opportunity for it to be clarified between then and now.

[Yendor]

This is going to be a big, personal memory, which complements all of Durkon's other memories we've seen. There are three main things we know about Sigdi: none of her current friends knew Tenrin, she dislikes depending on others' help, and her thoughts about denying feelings of love. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0084.html)

Here's my theory: Tenrin is either not Durkon's father, or not Sigdi's husband. (Or possibly both.) There was another, rich dwarf involved who was the father and/or husband, and Sigdi inherited a lot of money from him, but she was ashamed of that money and so got rid of it. There might be some details switched around, but that's basically it. (One possibility that occurred to me: Tenrin was rich and having an affair with Sigdi, but she feels guilty about inheriting money from him because she feels she got him killed.)

[Psychronia]

I have no idea what Durkon is trying to do, but I'm excited for both the execution of his plan and his memory in general.

...So hey, Kudzu ended up affecting the overall battle in some as-of-yet unforeseen way!

[D.One]

This is going to be a big, personal memory, which complements all of Durkon's other memories we've seen. There are three main things we know about Sigdi: none of her current friends knew Tenrin, she dislikes depending on others' help, and her thoughts about denying feelings of love. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0084.html)

Here's my theory: Tenrin is either not Durkon's father, or not Sigdi's husband. (Or possibly both.) There was another, rich dwarf involved who was the father and/or husband, and Sigdi inherited a lot of money from him, but she was ashamed of that money and so got rid of it. There might be some details switched around, but that's basically it. (One possibility that occurred to me: Tenrin was rich and having an affair with Sigdi, but she feels guilty about inheriting money from him because she feels she got him killed.)

The main problem I see with all this Dark Sidgi/Secret Sidgi/False Sidgi theories is that they probably coudn't be part of Durkon's intentions. You see, he apparently can't directly lie to Greg, maybe omit something (that will be shown if Greg demands so) or show a previous memory with information that is not true anymore.

We don't know for sure, but by the way Greg talks here (panel 26-27) (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0991.html), it's safe to assume he asked Durkon something in the line of "What happened to your father?". I think, if Durkon knew that story was false and that the true story of his father was another one, Greg might be able to see the ruse.

As far as we could understand, Durkon's plans probably rely on Greg's lack of ability to see the connections beetween memories, and to understand character growth. Thus, I believe there won't be a "HA! I fooled with false memories/memories that are not valid anymore!" that something in the lines of the Dark Sidgi idea suggests (Durkon would probably never know such informations anyway), but instead he will trick Greg with something like "HA! I've shown you everything, but you never connected the dots!"

As for Sidgi herself appearing and doing the big reveal, I don't think it will happen because:

1) That couldn't be part of Durkon's plan if he didn't know

and, more importantly

2) That would be her saving the day and taking the spotlight from Durkon, which is apparently the opposite way the story is heading.

PS:

and, because of (2),

3) It would be a bad and shallow Deus Ex Machina, something I don't see The Giant using...

[Shining Wrath]

I think Sigdi is probably at best a 5th level fighter with one arm. She'd be less help than Minrah. I do not think she's a powerful cleric of Loki, because a powerful cleric would have had different options available to fight a vampire troll than having her husband collapse the roof on top of them. Unless you want to argue that's an effective way to get a divorce, in which case - well, that's pretty dark, and I don't see the Giant having built Sigdi up as heroic to pull a switch like that. Sigdi is not going to show up and go Mama Bear on DurkonT, at any rate.

Although I can see her showing up and giving Hilgya a piece of her mind for taking her grandson into battle. Now THAT would be a confrontation for the ages.

[KorvinStarmast]

Although I can see her showing up and giving Hilgya a piece of her mind for taking her grandson into battle. Now THAT would be a confrontation for the ages. Yeah, looking forward to that. I can see this being a high probability conversation of Hilgya survives the fight with Durkula, which at the moment looks to be a strong possibility.

[Shining Wrath]

Yeah, looking forward to that. I can see this being a high probability conversation of Hilgya survives the fight with Durkula, which at the moment looks to be a strong possibility.

Also, Hilgya would say something negative about Durkon's character exactly once. If there's one person in world OotS who could go verbally nuclear on Hilgya and make her back down, it's Sigdi.

[factotum]

Of course, we don't actually know at this point if Sigdi is even still alive? She definitely was 20 years ago when Durkon was thrown out, because one of his complaints was that he didn't even get to wish her farewell, but who knows what's happened since.

[hroþila]

Of course, we don't actually know at this point if Sigdi is even still alive? She definitely was 20 years ago when Durkon was thrown out, because one of his complaints was that he didn't even get to wish her farewell, but who knows what's happened since.
The High Priest of Thor tried to inform Durkon about his grandfather passing away not that long ago. While we only saw the beginning of that letter, it is likely that Sigdi would have been mentioned before Durkon's grandfather if there were bad news about her. That'd be a much smaller window for her to die before the current arc.

[D.One]

The High Priest of Thor tried to inform Durkon about his grandfather passing away not that long ago. While we only saw the beginning of that letter, it is likely that Sigdi would have been mentioned before Durkon's grandfather if there were bad news about her. That'd be a much smaller window for her to die before the current arc.

And Minrah seems to know her, and seems to talk about her as a still-alive person (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1096.html).

[Ruck]

I agree that is the most probable explanation, and it should certainly be the default hypothesis.
Especially given the "interestin'" remark by Durkon. That's practically beggin' for the next sentence to be "So let's talk, ma."

But it's not implausible that it's Durkon's Grandmother, etc. There has literally been NO opportunity for it to be clarified between then and now.

The Doylist in me says "If it was i.e. Durkon's grandmother, Rich would have simply given her a different first name to alleviate confusion." Otherwise, I'd have to believe he did it solely to confuse the readers who decided to translate the donor wall before the reveal.

[Yendor]

A couple of interesting lines here: (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1007.html)

"Ye know how much Sigdi means ta all o' us at tha temple."
"After all our family's done fer them, this be tha thanks we get?"

It's certainly consistent with the idea Sigdi was a major benefactor of the temple.

[Jasdoif]

The High Priest of Thor tried to inform Durkon about his grandfather passing away not that long ago. While we only saw the beginning of that letter, it is likely that Sigdi would have been mentioned before Durkon's grandfather if there were bad news about her. That'd be a much smaller window for her to die before the current arc.Especially since Durkon directly mentioned both her and his grandfather in his letter (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0305.html), all the way back in Azure City.

[Shining Wrath]

The Doylist in me says "If it was i.e. Durkon's grandmother, Rich would have simply given her a different first name to alleviate confusion." Otherwise, I'd have to believe he did it solely to confuse the readers who decided to translate the donor wall before the reveal.

Translate, though, is a key word; it may be an "Easter Egg" joke rather than a key plot point.

[zimmerwald1915]

Translate, though, is a key word; it may be an "Easter Egg" joke rather than a key plot point.
Yendor points out dialogue that also indicates Sigdi is "important to" the Temple of Thor.

[Shining Wrath]

Yendor points out dialogue that also indicates Sigdi is "important to" the Temple of Thor.

Most likely, Sigdi did give a lot of money to the church and chose to live in poverty. I explore other options because it amuses me to do so.

The conversation between Durkon and Sigdi about why she gave away all that money will likely be revealing of character.

[Kashem]

I just realized something else: it is likely that the troll is dead at this point, from starvation, suffocation, or whatever. That means that Durkon's father's remains would be relatively easily accessible.
If Durkon's father died dishonorably, Durkon would actually have the relatively unique ability to FIX that. All they'd have to do is dig him up, have Durkon resurrect him, and then he could not only bring back Sigdi's arm, but her HUSBAND. Heck, by the end of the adventure, he might end up high enough level to go for a full True Resurrection, and not even need to dig him up, though one would question whether it'd be cheaper to dig him out than it would be to pay the additional diamonds.

Also just realized that Hilgya has been in town for a while now most likely. She might have already regenerated Sigdi's arm.

Reasonable chance of this being in the epilogue either way.

[Fyraltari]

I just realized something else: it is likely that the troll is dead at this point, from starvation, suffocation, or whatever. That means that Durkon's father's remains would be relatively easily accessible.
If Durkon's father died dishonorably, Durkon would actually have the relatively unique ability to FIX that. All they'd have to do is dig him up, have Durkon resurrect him, and then he could not only bring back Sigdi's arm, but her HUSBAND. Heck, by the end of the adventure, he might end up high enough level to go for a full True Resurrection, and not even need to dig him up, though one would question whether it'd be cheaper to dig him out than it would be to pay the additional diamonds.

Also just realized that Hilgya has been in town for a while now most likely. She might have already regenerated Sigdi's arm.

Reasonable chance of this being in the epilogue either way.


Durkon is more than 50 year old. I doubt there is anything left of Tenrin to cast on.
And The Giant doesn't like True Resurrection. At all.

[D.One]

I just realized something else: it is likely that the troll is dead at this point, from starvation, suffocation, or whatever. That means that Durkon's father's remains would be relatively easily accessible.
If Durkon's father died dishonorably, Durkon would actually have the relatively unique ability to FIX that. All they'd have to do is dig him up, have Durkon resurrect him, and then he could not only bring back Sigdi's arm, but her HUSBAND. Heck, by the end of the adventure, he might end up high enough level to go for a full True Resurrection, and not even need to dig him up, though one would question whether it'd be cheaper to dig him out than it would be to pay the additional diamonds.

Also just realized that Hilgya has been in town for a while now most likely. She might have already regenerated Sigdi's arm.

Reasonable chance of this being in the epilogue either way.


As far as we (and probably Durkon) know until now about his death, Tenrin's death was quite honorable, sacrificing himself to stop the Half-Dragon Troll and save his remaining comrades.

If The GodBet remains by the end of the Story, I believe even Sidgi would not be in favor of bringing back her died-with-honor late husband (but that's anjust an opinion of mine).

As for Hylgia, I don't believe she would be walking around searching for Durkon and asking informations in the Temple of Thor if she had already met Sidgi. She could just wait him there.

[Thurulian]

I am kinda curious what happened to Sabine after Nale died, Rich never shows her after the battle with Tarquin so i think it would be the perfect unexpected move to make her suddenly appear and help them with the vampire situation and bring some news from the Fiends for V.

[8BitNinja]

I am kinda curious what happened to Sabine after Nale died, Rich never shows her after the battle with Tarquin so i think it would be the perfect unexpected move to make her suddenly appear and help them with the vampire situation and bring some news from the Fiends for V.

Maybe she'll Diablos ex Machina into the fight, siding with the vampire.

[Ruck]

Translate, though, is a key word; it may be an "Easter Egg" joke rather than a key plot point.


Yendor points out dialogue that also indicates Sigdi is "important to" the Temple of Thor.

In addition, we see Durkon reading the wall when it appears. He would have noticed, and even when the Giant has just put Easter eggs in the strip into fonts like this, they translate into things that make sense in context. Assuming Durkon can read that font, he would read "Sigdi Thundershield." (If the names weren't supposed to mean anything, Rich probably would have put meaningless names, maybe Kickstarter backers, or just a message like "There's no clue on these walls.")

[AutomatedTeller]

I doubt that we see Sabine in this - I cannot imagine the directors are want the vampires to succeed, but I also doubt that they want to go up against Hel. I expect V to be left alone for these battles.

I agree that we'll see her again at some point, as the last remnant of the Linear Guild.

[Thurulian]

In addition, we see Durkon reading the wall when it appears. He would have noticed, and even when the Giant has just put Easter eggs in the strip into fonts like this, they translate into things that make sense in context. Assuming Durkon can read that font, he would read "Sigdi Thundershield." (If the names weren't supposed to mean anything, Rich probably would have put meaningless names, maybe Kickstarter backers, or just a message like "There's no clue on these walls.")

i agree its an awful lot of effort to go through just to mislead people i think its more likely that it is Sigdis' name on the wall and that Durkon wonders why she didnt use the money to get her arm healed.

[Manty5]

You know... they do refer to Sigdi as "sergeant" in might possibly be the present tense. Also, I'm interested in HER reaction to what's been done to her boy.

The "Durkon is now allowed to return" plot hook may not be to save Durkon from Greg. It might be to save the temple of Thor from Sigdi. If Durkon's been repressed his whole life, his mom has 20 years of repressed sorrow. If the pale patrol vamp HER right after she learns of what the temple did to her boy...

[Rrmcklin]

You know... they do refer to Sigdi as "sergeant" in might possibly be the present tense. Also, I'm interested in HER reaction to what's been done to her boy.

The "Durkon is now allowed to return" plot hook may not be to save Durkon from Greg. It might be to save the temple of Thor from Sigdi. If Durkon's been repressed his whole life, his mom has 20 years of repressed sorrow. If the pale patrol vamp HER right after she learns of what the temple did to her boy...

You don't get to live off a pension if you're still currently in service. They exist so you have something to live off of after you're done working.

[Shining Wrath]

You don't get to live off a pension if you're still currently in service. They exist so you have something to live off of after you're done working.

I believe Manty5 means that Sigdi is still alive, not that she is still an active duty sergeant.

Although if there's an emergency, even a one-armed retiree might be called back - we don't know the exact terms of the dwarven army's policies. It may be akin to the USMC; you may stop serving in active duty, but you are always a Marine. For some reason I think the dwarves and the Bulldogs would understand one another.

[SilverCacaobean]

OK, here's my theories (for all they aren't worth):[...] Even on his worst day, Durkon could never hurt his mother. Maybe we'll see the line that Durkula can't cross because he's only evil, not EVIL.[...]

Why do you think he wouldn't hurt Sigdi? His whole plan (well, Hel's plan) is to send all the dwarves, including her, to Hel to suffer for all eternity.


Point is, we're due for an explanation of what Durkon told Hilgya: that his Ma taught him self-denial and the importance of duty - especially if it makes you miserable. [...]

Agreed. I think it's about time we got some context on this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0084.html). I could be wrong but either way, I'm really happy we're getting more Durkon memories.

[schmunzel]

Why do you think he wouldn't hurt Sigdi? His whole plan (well, Hel's plan) is to send all the dwarves, including her, to Hel to suffer for all eternity.



Agreed. I think it's about time we got some context on this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0084.html). I could be wrong but either way, I'm really happy we're getting more Durkon memories.

And Im convinced were about to see the conversation were she stresses that point from next strip on




You know... they do refer to Sigdi as "sergeant" in might possibly be the present tense. Also, I'm interested in HER reaction to what's been done to her boy.

The "Durkon is now allowed to return" plot hook may not be to save Durkon from Greg. It might be to save the temple of Thor from Sigdi. If Durkon's been repressed his whole life, his mom has 20 years of repressed sorrow. If the pale patrol vamp HER right after she learns of what the temple did to her boy...

What did the temple do to her boy which she doesnt know about for the last 20 years ??



sch

[D.One]

Why do you think he wouldn't hurt Sigdi? His whole plan (well, Hel's plan) is to send all the dwarves, including her, to Hel to suffer for all eternity.

I've been thinking... not that it affects the storyline, it's more of a philosophical questioning... some dwarves might escape Hel during the death-by-erased-world event. The Giant has aknowledged that living an honorable life is important, maybe as much as the moment of death. At least, living an honorable life might lead someone to be doing something honorable at the moment of death. With this last thought in mind, there will certainly be dwarves that, at the moment the world is being erased, will be "being honorable" and thus will escape Hel.

Again, I don't think this affects the fact the they must stop Hel anyway.

[eilandesq]

Durkon is more than 50 year old. I doubt there is anything left of Tenrin to cast on.
And The Giant doesn't like True Resurrection. At all.

All it would take is a small bit of bone--resurrection will work on someone dead up to ten years per caster level. They'd have to dig into that rockslide, but if any of the skeleton is there and the spirit is willing to be raised, it could be done.

[zimmerwald1915]

All it would take is a small bit of bone--resurrection will work on someone dead up to ten years per caster level. They'd have to dig into that rockslide, but if any of the skeleton is there and the spirit is willing to be raised, it could be done.
That seems like the kind of excavation and forensics project that could take a long time. The Order has a world to save, and is on a clock.

[eilandesq]

That seems like the kind of excavation and forensics project that could take a long time. The Order has a world to save, and is on a clock.

True. But "locate object" and "passwall" would probably get it done if they needed to do it for some reason.

[KorvinStarmast]

The Order has a world to save, and is on a clock. The order need not dig: there's a whole city full of dwarves for that, if the plot requires.

[Elenna]

You know... they do refer to Sigdi as "sergeant" in might possibly be the present tense.

Okay, gotcha. I couldn't remember if it had been said by any trustworthy narrators.

[Mandor]

True. But "locate object" and "passwall" would probably get it done if they needed to do it for some reason.Consider also that Tenrin might not consent to being Ressurected.

If he died with honor, he's safe from Hel. Being reborn into the world again puts him back in jeapordy (/cue Wierd Al). And if he's been dead for 50 years in the afterlife, perhaps the idea of the mortal world and all its trials, no longer holds an appeal for him. Case in point, I doubt Roy's mother would accept a Ressurection, even if one could be provided. She is content where she is, and has come fully to terms with being dead.

[Snails]

I've been thinking... not that it affects the storyline, it's more of a philosophical questioning... some dwarves might escape Hel during the death-by-erased-world event. The Giant has aknowledged that living an honorable life is important, maybe as much as the moment of death. At least, living an honorable life might lead someone to be doing something honorable at the moment of death. With this last thought in mind, there will certainly be dwarves that, at the moment the world is being erased, will be "being honorable" and thus will escape Hel.

Again, I don't think this affects the fact the they must stop Hel anyway.

Yes, I think the point is that the only reliable means of escaping Hel's grasp is by dying honorably in battle. In fact, it seems to me that it is so reliable, that probably a lot of lousy examples of dwarfdom, lives that well-deserve Hel's eternal attentions, escape their just fate by a small helping of courage and well-timed bloodshed.

In essence, isn't that Hel's gripe? That many many souls that should have been hers are going elsewhere based on a "technicality"? We have no particular reason to doubt that Hel is being quite truthful about how unfairly it all has worked out.

That said, IMHO, The Giant's comments have implied that others could "die with honor" by virtue of living genuinely virtuous lives in an honorable fashion. Of course, such is probably pretty hard, not something the average dwarf can necessarily achieve. Why count on that when you have a Sure Thing?

BTW, The Bet suggests to me that no dwarf truly retires from the military. Sigdi may be on pension, which means she has retired from the daily grind that an active member is responsible for. But, all dwarves have some expectation that a battle can be found soonish when their health beginning to fail. Not that all dwarves necessarily need such an out (see above), but dwarven society would be arranged such that the option was available to all.

[Ruck]

I doubt Roy's mother would accept a Ressurection, even if one could be provided. She is content where she is, and has come fully to terms with being dead.

I've always been curious how old Roy's mother was when she died, how large is the age gap between her and Eugene, and how old they were when they had children. It feels like a series of details that probably have some inconsistencies when you think about it, but I don't think I've ever thought it important enough to the story to try to figure out.

[hamishspence]

I've always been curious how old Roy's mother was when she died, how large is the age gap between her and Eugene, and how old they were when they had children. It feels like a series of details that probably have some inconsistencies when you think about it, but I don't think I've ever thought it important enough to the story to try to figure out.

We know at least that she was 19 or older, since her form in Celestial is of the "19 year old looker who had never even heard of Eugene Greenhilt."

If we assume she met and married him only very shortly after turning 19, then, by this timeline:


http://oots.wikia.com/wiki/Timeline

Eugene was born in 1102, married in 1153 (Sara being born in 1134 or very shortly earlier), they had their first child (Roy) in 1155, they had their second child Eric in 1162, they had their third child Julia in 1167 (after Eric died in 1165) and Eugene died in 1180 (Sara dying in 1181)

So - age gap is on the order of 32 years or less, Eugene is 53 when he has his first child (and Sara at least 21) Eugene is 65 when he has his last child (and Sara at least 33), and Eugene is 78 when he dies (and Sara at least 47 when she dies a year later).

Of course - this is the absolute lower limit. Sara may be a few years older than this.

[LadyEowyn]

When he meets her in heaven, Roy mentions remembering his mom as having grey hair and osteoporosis, so I think we can conclude she didn't die in her 40s.

Absent other evidence, I'd guess she was 40 when she had Julia (close to the upper limit for having kids) and 64 when she died.

[hamishspence]

Plenty of people go grey young. Osteoporosis, however, does tend to kick in a bit later.


But I don't think 47 is problematically young for it, given that, while it's rare in under-50s, it happens. Especially if the person has had early menopause for some reason.

[LadyEowyn]

But do we have any particular reason for thinking she was that young? She never said she met Eugene at 20, just that her "ideal self" is age 19 and she didn't know him yet then.

[hamishspence]

Eugene does, when showing Roy in the prequels what Sara looked like that back then (with an illusion) refer to her as "girl" rather than "woman" but that's pretty ambiguous.

If she had a CON of 3, then aging penalties would reduce it to 0 by Old Age (53) and mean she'd die at 53 instead of 72 or older.

Using The Giant's interpretation of INT 3 as being the lowest a normal person's INT can be, the same might apply to CON.

If she died at 53 instead of 47, she'd have married Eugene at around 25 instead of 19. She is wearing her hair down rather than in pigtails in the flashback scene - which might be a hint that she's just a little older.

[eilandesq]

Eugene does, when showing Roy in the prequels what Sara looked like that back then (with an illusion) refer to her as "girl" rather than "woman" but that's pretty ambiguous.

If she had a CON of 3, then aging penalties would reduce it to 0 by Old Age (53) and mean she'd die at 53 instead of 72 or older.

Using The Giant's interpretation of INT 3 as being the lowest a normal person's INT can be, the same might apply to CON.

If she died at 53 instead of 47, she'd have married Eugene at around 25 instead of 19. She is wearing her hair down rather than in pigtails in the flashback scene - which might be a hint that she's just a little older.

My guess is that she got sick and failed her saving throws, and that for some reason a cleric wasn't around to take care of the problem. Except for the "failed saving throws" and "clerics with remove disease existed" part, that happened a lot back in the day.

[D.One]

When he meets her in heaven, Roy mentions remembering his mom as having grey hair and osteoporosis, so I think we can conclude she didn't die in her 40s.

Absent other evidence, I'd guess she was 40 when she had Julia (close to the upper limit for having kids) and 64 when she died.


Plenty of people go grey young. Osteoporosis, however, does tend to kick in a bit later.


But I don't think 47 is problematically young for it, given that, while it's rare in under-50s, it happens. Especially if the person has had early menopause for some reason.

Aside from the probability of osteoporosis, in fact Sara's minimum age at her moment of death is around 47 (middle age, close to old age by DnD's human standards). Since everything points out that she was younger than Eugene, she couldn't be more than 79 when she died (venerable age).

DnD humans (without magical augmentation) live up to 72-90 years. That means Sara could have died of old age, depending on how much younger than Eugene she was. If so, no Rezz for her. If not, she would probably not want to go back anyway, since she's pretty happy where she is.

[hamishspence]

Since Venerable Age is 70, a Con 6 or lower person would die at 70 instead of "having the gods roll the dice for maximum age".


Eugene literally died of old age. When a person reaches a certain age, the gods roll dice to see what his or her maximum lifespan is going to be, and when the person hits 12:01 on that birthday, they keel over dead from no apparent cause.

This is definitely true in the OOTS world, and probably true in many other fantasy worlds (except perhaps the birthday timing). The gods measuring the lifespan of every person has deep roots in mythology—the Fates, the Norns, etc. People don't die of cancer in a fantasy world, they die of having the thread of their existence severed by the personifications of Destiny.

Once you have fireballs and dragons, you have to accept that sometimes, things are exactly what they are described as being, science be damned.

[Ruck]

Absent other evidence, I'd guess she was 40 when she had Julia (close to the upper limit for having kids) and 64 when she died.

Well, Julia's certainly not 24 now.

This highlights the inconsistency I struggle with: Either Sara married Eugene pretty young and then died much younger than he did with no apparent explanation, or she had children implausibly late in life.

[Keltest]

Well, Julia's certainly not 24 now.

This highlights the inconsistency I struggle with: Either Sara married Eugene pretty young and then died much younger than he did with no apparent explanation, or she had children implausibly late in life.

Or A Wizard Did It. That wizard probably being Eugene.

[D.One]

Since Venerable Age is 70, a Con 6 or lower person would die at 70 instead of "having the gods roll the dice for maximum age".

Eugene died at 78, within 72-90 human's maxmum age range. That means he certainly didn't have (before Middle age) a CON lower than 7, or he would have died at 70, as you noted. Sara could have had a CON of 6 or less and have died when she reached 70, but since we don't know how she died, it's hard to tell.

[hamishspence]

Either Sara married Eugene pretty young and then died much younger than he did with no apparent explanation, or she had children implausibly late in life.



She could even have had a CON of 3 and died at 53. That would have made her 25 when she married Eugene, 27 when she had Roy, and 39 when she had Julia.

Result - a "natural causes" explanation for early death, and Julia being conceived not at a problematically late age.


Sara could have had a CON of 6 or less and have died when she reached 70, but since we don't know how she died, it's hard to tell.

Problem is (with CON 4-6), that would have made her 54 when she had Julia - which is "Old age". It would also mean she'd be 40 when she married Eugene - which doesn't exactly fit with the flashback scene.

[Ruck]

She could even have had a CON of 3 and died at 53. That would have made her 25 when she married Eugene, 27 when she had Roy, and 39 when she had Julia.

Result - a "natural causes" explanation for early death, and Julia being conceived not at a problematically late age.
I didn't know a human could die that young from natural causes under D&D rules, but this would work if it fits. Do we have any indicators for exactly when Sara died?

[D.One]

I didn't know a human could die that young from natural causes under D&D rules, but this would work if it fits. Do we have any indicators for exactly when Sara died?

We know she died in 1181, about 2 years prior to Dungeon Crawling Fools. We don't know how she died, neither when she was born.

[hamishspence]

The youngest one can die in a fashion that can be called "of old age" is Middle Age.

If you roll 3 for CON, and then take the Pathetic flaw for CON, then you will have a natural CON of 1:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm#pathetic

which means that the 1 pt "aging CON loss" at middle age will kill you.

I was wondering if Sangwaan's illness alluded to in SPOILER ALERT,

might mechanically be represented that way - meaning she would automatically die at 35?

EDIT - apparently the age was

before 30 - but of course, her illness wasn't given the chance to kill her.

[D.One]

The youngest one can die in a fashion that can be called "of old age" is Middle Age.

If you roll 3 for CON, and then take the Pathetic flaw for CON, then you will have a natural CON of 1:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm#pathetic

which means that the 1 pt "aging CON loss" at middle age will kill you.

I was wondering if Sangwaan's illness alluded to in SPOILER ALERT, might mechanically be represented that way - meaning she would automatically die at 35?

I believe the person doesn't really needs to have a starting CON of 3 or have the Pathetic flaw to die of old age in Middle Age(s :smallbiggrin:). If some event (maybe poison, maybe illness, who knows?, maybe even the CON loss for some Raise Dead) decreases permanently such person's CON, or causes CON drain, in order for the person to be reduced to CON 1 before reaching middle age, the 1 point reduction would kill him/her of "old age/natural causes".

[hamishspence]

True - but the above examples, allow it to happen without poison, illness, and Raise Dead spells.

[Shining Wrath]

We do not know that OotS women experience menopause, nor that said menopause occurs at the same age as earth women. It's quite possible that Sarah had Julia at 60, especially if Eugene and Sarah were willing to spend some money for a cleric of Baldur or Freya or a druid to do something magical.

Once you've got dragons and fireballs, you've also got "Greater Restoration of Fertility", male and female versions.

[hroþila]

We do not know that OotS women experience menopause, nor that said menopause occurs at the same age as earth women.
Not entirely canon, but Roy/Hamlet's mother played by Sara in the Hamlet stick tale was said to be "likely postmenopausal".

[AutomatedTeller]

I can't tell whether this is why the forum is awesome or whether it's just a sign of ADD. (not AD&D, of course)

I mean, a discussion of the climax of the book has, so far, 10 posts about how old a character only seen 2 books ago was when she died.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Or A Wizard Did It. That wizard probably being Eugene.

More likely a cleric of the fertility goddess. What, we use specialists IRL, why not in strip?

[Thurulian]

I can't tell whether this is why the forum is awesome or whether it's just a sign of ADD. (not AD&D, of course)

I mean, a discussion of the climax of the book has, so far, 10 posts about how old a character only seen 2 books ago was when she died.

Threads get off topic so quickly. Who thinks that someone from the order is gonna die in this book? i have an itching suspicion that someone important is gonna die soon.

[brian 333]

In a world of magic ageing effects one can achieve old age in a very short time. Simply viewing a ghost was once a cause of aging, as were the use of haste spells and items.