What should be this character's alignment?

[Jon_Dahl]

The Character is a semi-powerful adventurer. He and his group have recently lost a member but now they have an excellent replacement. The new guy is a cleric and the Character thinks that the new guy might be the smartest and most effective cleric that he has ever met. The new guy saves the whole group a couple of times.

There is a problem, however. The new guy is emotionally unstable and suffers from depression and the situation is getting worse. The Character thinks that the depression will eventually start to affect his performance. The Character knows the sequence of events that made the new guy depressed:

Some time ago, the new guy belonged to an adventurers' guild. Poor leadership cost the lives of many adventurers. The bad guys were winning and the good guys were losing. Then one day a mysterious man suggested that the new guy, a few dozen fellow adventurers and a non-evil tribe of fire giants could go to an abandoned wasteland, claim their own republic there and be free men. It was all planned out but the mystery man only needed to find more adventurers. The new guy asked a man (whom he found trustworthy) to join the project and make this dream of 'Adventurerland" happen. The man said that he liked idea and wanted to help it happen, but right after the meeting the man told about plan to the guild leaders. The guild leadership found the whole idea amusing at best and warned the new guy not to mess with rebellious strangers. The new guy contacted the mystery man who in turn sent a death threat to the snitch. The snitch told the leaders who decided to arrest and interrogate the new guy although they didn't really care that much. The mystery man warned the new guy that he might get arrested and then the new guy went into exile.

The new guy feels that he lost his dream. He feels that for a fleeting moment there was hope, real hope, and it's gone. He finds comfort in adventuring, healing and in his deity, but he is starting lose his faith and the Character thinks that him losing his divine abilities is highly likely.

Then one day the Character tells the new guy that they will help him to kill the snitch. The Character has a plan how to do that. The Character decides to lure the snitch to a place where they can kill him in peace. Without telling anyone, the Character decides to give quarter if quarter is asked, but mainly he and his band of loyal adventurers will have to ambush and defeat another band of adventurers and most likely kill them. The Character will loot the snitch and his unknown friends, regardless of what happens, since losing one's magic item makes revenge too difficult, especially at that level.

[Goaty14]

Literally Anything? Getting revenge isn't quite specific to any one alignment, though he might lean somewhere else if he has other motivations, or gets things done a certain way.

[Falontani]

Whatever alignment he is, it should take a step towards evil if he actually gets his vengeance. As a cleric his alignment should be within 1 step of his deity.

[Goaty14]

Whatever alignment he is, it should take a step towards evil if he actually gets his vengeance. As a cleric his alignment should be within 1 step of his deity.

1) Why? That #$&#^(@! snitch ruined his, and everybody else's shot at getting a better life. I'd argue that there shouldn't be an alignment change because we don't know enough about the situation.
2) Nothing good comes from "paladin code" rules and effects.

[Falontani]

1) Why? That #$&#^(@! snitch ruined his, and everybody else's shot at getting a better life. I'd argue that there shouldn't be an alignment change because we don't know enough about the situation.
2) Nothing good comes from "paladin code" rules and effects.

1) Because revenge is an evil act.
2) By RAW clerics are supposed to follow within 1 step of their deities ethos.

[heavyfuel]

Ah, the joys of the alignment system! Honestly, I agree with Goaty in that it's whatever you want it to be. Clerics' alignment do need to be within one step from their deity's, but other than that.


1) Because revenge is an evil act

Avenging the ones who suffered isn't. The "Avenger" PrC is basically a non-evil assassin. So yeah.

[Venger]

1) Because revenge is an evil act.

Neither mechanically nor otherwise is this true. Snitches get stitches. Besides, it's not like being killed is anything more than a slap on the wrist in D&D.

Yeah the cleric can be of any alignment.

[hamishspence]

1) Because revenge is an evil act.

BoVD, in the list of (usually) Evil Acts, says "Revenge does not have to be evil" (but warns that evil mindsets tend to redefine it to "revenge at any cost).

BoED says that "revenge" is not an acceptable cause for violence.


Combining the two, would suggest that non-violent revenge can be of any alignment (depending on the justification and the exact nature of the vengenance) but that violent revenge is non-Good - incompatible with a strongly good alignment.
The "Avenger" PrC is basically a non-evil assassin.
It's also an April Fools Day special.

[2D8HP]

Instead of my usual long post on what "Chaos" Evil", "Good", and "Law" have traditionally meant in D&D, I'll just tell you which Alignments are what most DM's (in my experience) are less likely to tell you that "You're not playing your Alignment", in order::

1) Neutral Evil

2) True Neutral

3) Chaotic Evil

4) Lawful Evil

5) Lawful Neutral

6) Chaotic Good (most are wrong in their interpretation of this Alignment IMNSHO, but whatever)

7) Chaotic Neutral

8) Neutral Good

and the one that your DM is least likely to consider you "Doing it right":

9) Lawful Good.

[Goaty14]

1) Because revenge is an evil act.

Mind you, the current guild was getting the character's trusted friends and allies killed left and right, and then Freddy McSnitch reports to the dark overlords and ruins their chances of a better life!

Sure, killing people who haven't done explicit evil is bad, but the snitch in question has implicitly continued the killing of adventurers, which is more of a good act from the character's perspective. If the snitch is evil to begin with, then killing him/her is ok, even by paladin standards.


2) By RAW clerics are supposed to follow within 1 step of their deities ethos.

Yes, but I very much don't like the idea of punishing the player for roleplaying his/her character. Do note that the GM seems pretty ok with the character doing this, given he's (likely) going to have the snitch take the bait.


violent revenge is non-Good - incompatible with a strongly good alignment.

Killing a dark evil overlord that has been terrorizing the material plane for decades is a good act... Doing so because he and his goons murdered your father... isn't good?

Laws do not exist without some sort of ethics applied, I believe that this is an allowance.

Inigo Montoya killed for revenge and he's very clearly good!

[hamishspence]

Killing a dark evil overlord that has been terrorizing the material plane for decades is a good act... Doing so because he and his goons murdered your father... isn't good?

Not if revenge is the primary consideration and you couldn't care less what he's done to the rest of the Material Plane. Murder (killing with nefarious motives) is generally considered an Evil act in D&D - and revenge qualifies as a "nefarious motive" in a way that Defence of Others From An Attacker, doesn't.
If the snitch is evil to begin with, then killing him/her is ok, even by paladin standards.

It is possible for killing to qualify as Murder even if the victim is evil. "Paladin/Exalted standards" demand that your primary motive be "People needed protecting from your victim".



Freddy McSnitch reports to the dark overlords and ruins their chances of a better life!

Sure, killing people who haven't done explicit evil is bad, but the snitch in question has implicitly continued the killing of adventurers

Based on the OP:


Some time ago, the new guy belonged to an adventurers' guild. Poor leadership cost the lives of many adventurers.
...

one day a mysterious man suggested that the new guy, a few dozen fellow adventurers and a non-evil tribe of fire giants could go to an abandoned wasteland, claim their own republic there and be free men. It was all planned out but the mystery man only needed to find more adventurers.

The new guy asked a man (whom he found trustworthy) to join the project and make this dream of 'Adventurerland" happen. The man said that he liked idea and wanted to help it happen, but right after the meeting the man told about plan to the guild leaders. The guild leadership found the whole idea amusing at best and warned the new guy not to mess with rebellious strangers. The new guy contacted the mystery man who in turn sent a death threat to the snitch. The snitch told the leaders who decided to arrest and interrogate the new guy although they didn't really care that much. The mystery man warned the new guy that he might get arrested and then the new guy went into exile.

the "mystery man's" "found a Republic in the wastelands" idea was considered suspicious by the "snitch" so they reported it to their bosses. That does not sound like "killing adventurers" to me - just caution.


Where in the OP does the "guild leadership" come across as Dark Overlords? They just come across as having "poor leadership" - nothing more - and a touchy attitude to people seeking to found their own kingdoms.

[heavyfuel]

It's also an April Fools Day special.

Is it? I never noticed that :smallbiggrin:

Still, it can definitely be taken as a serious class, unlike, say Chicken Infested Commoner.

[hamishspence]

The Slayer of Domiel PRC in BOED is a better example of "assassinates for a Good cause" - speciality, tyrannies.

However, this adventurer's guild, while repressive - doesn't sound like an out-and-out tyranny such that assassinating its leaders and/or informants qualifies as being "in a Good cause".


Snitches get stitches.

Technically, the "new guy" is a snitch too - he snitches on snitches, to strangers who throw around death threats.

[fallensavior]

One man's revenge is another man's justice.

[tiercel]

Some time ago, the new guy belonged to an adventurers' guild. Poor leadership cost the lives of many adventurers. The bad guys were winning and the good guys were losing. Then one day a mysterious man suggested that the new guy, a few dozen fellow adventurers and a non-evil tribe of fire giants could go to an abandoned wasteland, claim their own republic there and be free men. It was all planned out but the mystery man only needed to find more adventurers. The new guy asked a man (whom he found trustworthy) to join the project and make this dream of 'Adventurerland" happen. The man said that he liked idea and wanted to help it happen, but right after the meeting the man told about plan to the guild leaders. The guild leadership found the whole idea amusing at best and warned the new guy not to mess with rebellious strangers. The new guy contacted the mystery man who in turn sent a death threat to the snitch. The snitch told the leaders who decided to arrest and interrogate the new guy although they didn't really care that much. The mystery man warned the new guy that he might get arrested and then the new guy went into exile.

The new guy feels that he lost his dream. He feels that for a fleeting moment there was hope, real hope, and it's gone. He finds comfort in adventuring, healing and in his deity, but he is starting lose his faith and the Character thinks that him losing his divine abilities is highly likely.

Then one day the Character tells the new guy that they will help him to kill the snitch. The Character has a plan how to do that. The Character decides to lure the snitch to a place where they can kill him in peace.

Possible counterpoint:

I am the BBEG.

There is a pesky adventurers’ guild, but thanks to Evil is Smart, Good is Dumb, I am winning. Still, these adventurers are costing me more in resources or time than I’d like.

I send a Trusted Lieutenant in Mysterious Stranger guise (basically, hooded cloak, tavern, and yellow exclamation mark over his head) to tell some trusting-looking sap new-guy adventurer that wouldn’t it be great if he and his adventurer buddies and some annoyingly non-Evil, non-cooperative-with-my-plans fire giant tribe just all went away went to go live in some mythical Wild-West-style “freedom.”

This almost works! Practically almost without effort on my part, all of my problems very nearly remove themselves for me.

Except there’s a little-goody-two-shoes snitch. Well, I can’t be having with that, now can I?

I could just remove him myself, but I am a very busy BBEG and/or it wouldn’t do for me to reveal my presence during Phase XVI of my Master Plan. Besides, it is just so much more amusing to make my opponents do my dirty work for me.

I use my lieutenant to help turn this sap new guy against the guild, convincing him the threat to him is much more real than it really is. Now he’s all broken up about the “loss of his dream.” —Whether or not the dream ever could have been real is immaterial to me; I just wanted my opponents out of my way. His tears are delicious, however, and on a more practical level his poor little broken heart may just convince his buddies to go murder the one non-schmuck in the whole guild who is actually suspicious of my Nefarious Plan.

I’m winning so hard that my opponents are now more concerned about their morality than whether they should be killing a guy instead of listening to him.

I decide now is as good a time as any to indulge in breaking Rule 20 of the Evil Overlord List (http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html). (What good is being Evil if I have to follow someone else’s rules all the time?)

But please! Alignment. *steeples fingers*. By all means go on.

———

The above is meant as less of an attempt to torpedo this thread’s alignment discussion and more of a way of offering a significantly different potential perspective which might color the discussion.

[Jon_Dahl]

Thank you, tiercel, even though your message didn't help with the subject that much, it still gave me ideas for my campaign.

[hamishspence]

I am the BBEG.

There is a pesky adventurers’ guild, but thanks to Evil is Smart, Good is Dumb, I am winning. Still, these adventurers are costing me more in resources or time than I’d like.

I send a Trusted Lieutenant in Mysterious Stranger guise (basically, hooded cloak, tavern, and yellow exclamation mark over his head) to tell some trusting-looking sap new-guy adventurer that wouldn’t it be great if he and his adventurer buddies and some annoyingly non-Evil, non-cooperative-with-my-plans fire giant tribe just all went away went to go live in some mythical Wild-West-style “freedom.”

This almost works! Practically almost without effort on my part, all of my problems very nearly remove themselves for me.

Except there’s a little-goody-two-shoes snitch. Well, I can’t be having with that, now can I?

I could just remove him myself, but I am a very busy BBEG and/or it wouldn’t do for me to reveal my presence during Phase XVI of my Master Plan. Besides, it is just so much more amusing to make my opponents do my dirty work for me.

I use my lieutenant to help turn this sap new guy against the guild, convincing him the threat to him is much more real than it really is. Now he’s all broken up about the “loss of his dream.” —Whether or not the dream ever could have been real is immaterial to me; I just wanted my opponents out of my way. His tears are delicious, however, and on a more practical level his poor little broken heart may just convince his buddies to go murder the one non-schmuck in the whole guild who is actually suspicious of my Nefarious Plan.

I’m winning so hard that my opponents are now more concerned about their morality than whether they should be killing a guy instead of listening to him.

I decide now is as good a time as any to indulge in breaking Rule 20 of the Evil Overlord List (http://www.eviloverlord.com/lists/overlord.html). (What good is being Evil if I have to follow someone else’s rules all the time?)

But please! Alignment. *steeples fingers*. By all means go on.


That was exactly my reaction. Mysterious Strangers turning people against their own guild (even if its leadership is pretty poor) should be distrusted.

[tiercel]

That was exactly my reaction. Mysterious Strangers turning people against their own guild (even if its leadership is pretty poor) should be distrusted.

Right? I may not be as volubly and capably eloquent as some on the subject of effective Evil Masterminds, but I’m glad I’m not the only one who read the situation and saw that a possible explanation just fell right out.


Thank you, tiercel, even though your message didn't help with the subject that much, it still gave me ideas for my campaign.

Glad I could be of some help, if indirectly! Perhaps a little less obliquely, I might ask what the purpose of ambushing and likely killing the snitch is? Vengeance likely won’t restore “the dream,” even assuming the possible backstory I proposed isn’t actually true and “the dream” was ever in play (and not just a ploy) — and furthermore, I’m not sure that even successful vengeance (even if it can ever be shown to be arguably justifiable) will actually help “the new guy’s” depressed outlook.

If vengeance were actually justifiable and primarily aimed at somehow helping one person recover himself/a world view, that might be considered a Chaotic Good motivation.

If non-lethal justice—as opposed to vengeance—is the primary plan, then if done to help people found a “better world” that could be a Neutral Good motivation, or as part of a program to reform the Adventurers’s Guild and the society it works within, possibly even a Lawful Good one.

On the other hand, if (as it sounds like) the motivation is more “I like this new guy and the snitch hurt his feelings, so I’m gonna totally kill this snitch” sounds like a disproportionate response and an Evil motivation. If there were something to gain from murdering the snitch, it could be seen as Lawful, but if it’s more “nobody gets in the way of Number One and what’s mine” without disproportionate violence, that sounds more like Neutral Evil motivation to me.

All of these are just ways of exploring the kind of motivation, rather than “what alignment is The Character” per se, but the possibility that the snitch might be right and/or well-meaning would seem to be relevant as well (and if the snitch’s motivations don’t matter to The Character, that would seem to push a likely-lethal response much more firmly down into the deep end of the alignment pool.)

[Zanos]

Some time ago, the new guy belonged to an adventurers' guild. Poor leadership cost the lives of many adventurers. The bad guys were winning and the good guys were losing. Then one day a mysterious man suggested that the new guy, a few dozen fellow adventurers and a non-evil tribe of fire giants could go to an abandoned wasteland, claim their own republic there and be free men. It was all planned out but the mystery man only needed to find more adventurers. The new guy asked a man (whom he found trustworthy) to join the project and make this dream of 'Adventurerland" happen. The man said that he liked idea and wanted to help it happen, but right after the meeting the man told about plan to the guild leaders. The guild leadership found the whole idea amusing at best and warned the new guy not to mess with rebellious strangers. The new guy contacted the mystery man who in turn sent a death threat to the snitch. The snitch told the leaders who decided to arrest and interrogate the new guy although they didn't really care that much. The mystery man warned the new guy that he might get arrested and then the new guy went into exile.

...

Then one day the Character tells the new guy that they will help him to kill the snitch. The Character has a plan how to do that. The Character decides to lure the snitch to a place where they can kill him in peace. Without telling anyone, the Character decides to give quarter if quarter is asked, but mainly he and his band of loyal adventurers will have to ambush and defeat another band of adventurers and most likely kill them. The Character will loot the snitch and his unknown friends, regardless of what happens, since losing one's magic item makes revenge too difficult, especially at that level.
The Snitch is only indirectly responsible for any of this. He heard something that didn't mesh with the leadership(that seems more incompetent than malicious), and tattled. As a result, the New Guy might have been arrested, but fled. Not really sure how that crushes his entire dream though, wasn't the entire plan to go somewhere else anyway?

Ambushing this guy for the express purpose of killing him is murder, straight up. It's not like he lined up the New Guys family and beat them all to death, and he's not even actively malicious or a current threat to the party.

That doesn't mean the characters current alignment is Evil, but if he goes through with murdering some dude who inconvenienced him then that's textbook Evil. At the moment I'd say either True Neutral or Chaotic Neutral. Probably not Lawful, since a Lawful person would probably try to change a bad organization from within.


Snitches get stitches.
Not sure that's a great phrase to be using as an argument for something being non-Evil.

Counterpoint: If you see something, say something.

[Jon_Dahl]

I might ask what the purpose of ambushing and likely killing the snitch is?

The Character is responsible for his team (i.e. adventuring group). The new guy is too powerful to be left out of the team but his past haunts him and makes him a liability. The Character decides to "fix" the past and that way things will get normal again. Moreover, the Character feels that the snitch absolutely and definitely deserves what's coming, no doubt about that. Snitches are the lowest life-form on earth.


Not really sure how that crushes his entire dream though, wasn't the entire plan to go somewhere else anyway?

The guy was supposed to recruit the guild members secretly. Now that the leadership is fully aware of what is going on, things don't look that good.

[Zanos]

The Character is responsible for his team (i.e. adventuring group). The new guy is too powerful to be left out of the team but his past haunts him and makes him a liability. The Character decides to "fix" the past and that way things will get normal again. Moreover, the Character feels that the snitch absolutely and definitely deserves what's coming, no doubt about that. Snitches are the lowest life-form on earth.
Well, I hope The Character is Chaotic Evil then, because wow.


The guy was supposed to recruit the guild members secretly. Now that the leadership is fully aware of what is going on, things don't look that good.
I'm going to have to agree with the above post then. Covertly recruiting the members of a Good but overall incompetently managed organization is really suspect at first glance, and it's pretty hard to blame the guy for reporting it to the higher ups. It's also not like they cracked down and killed everyone involved, just arrested some folks and asked some questions.