"Good Lich". How it works?

[Hyperversum]

Not mechanically speaking, but fluff-wise. Template from Libris Mortis.

I know, I know. It's one of those things you gotta "adapt" to every different setting, maybe making it a deathless rather than a normal undead and so on.

I just wanted to know if anyone used it, even better if by a playing character.
My problem with it is that Deathless are supposed to be created/produced by gods or general divine beings, granting them an extra time to do something. Baelnorns are basically deathless elf wizard-heroes that keep existing to do something, by order of their gods.
A lich, a standard lich, on the other hand is the traditional wizard/cleric that do some terrible ritual to obtain an higher level of existence. And generally (and in my setting this is the case) undead are by nature "evil", because of the energies they use to exist.

A good lich how could fit in this picture? I thought about making the ritual to become a good Lich being particularly harder to perform and that asks a sacrifice not from other beings but the caster itself. Yet, it's not enough imo.
This is my problem, I just can't make it fit between these concepts. Why shouldn't every wizard that want some extra time follow this route? Even a good cleric could use it effectively.

Just tell me everything you think about it!

[Scowling Dragon]

Well what is a bad lich? Its immortality, and it comes with the cost of care.
Ye the initial ritual is this evil soul destructive thing, and its a selfish thing.

The opposite may be to preserve. Somebody willing to take on a immortal burden. In a sense granting immortality to watch over something rather then to control it for yourself.

[Acanous]

Make it chaotic instead of evil? To flub the natural order and do what you want

[ExLibrisMortis]

A good lich has simply found some [good] power to sign off on immortality. Alignment is a matter of politics more than anything else; good is good because it hurts evil and vice versa. Life, death, and undeath are only tangentially related to good and evil; [good] deities like to frame themselves as pro-positive energy, but Pelor can barely hide his distaste.

[Falontani]

Why can't you just imagine, a lich, who put his soul into a phylactery he constructed with high arcane magic through the use of Necromancy (WHICH IS NOT AN EVIL SCHOOL). He is now immortal, and yes, undead. As an undead creature he uses negative energy instead of positive energy to heal himself. However negative energy is to cold as positive energy is to fire. Two elements on a scale. Calling one evil and the other good is something that has been done, but isn't accurate. Positive Energy is the life force of living creatures. Negative Energy is the life force of undead creatures. Living creatures run the gambit of alignments, with no portion of the alignment being dominant except neutrality. However Undead Creatures are predominantly evil, and this is why people misconstrue Negative Energy as evil. Just as one brands winter as evil.

A good lich would understand the concept of the energies. Where one person would tell the lich that giving up life meant giving up on passion, love, happiness, and the lich would reply that he has also given up sorrow, despair, and fear. He would understand the arguments for life, and he would not attempt to sway someone else to undeath, but would understand. Understanding is key.

I would even go so far as to say that a "good" lich may attempt to convince the evil liches that there is more to accomplish, more than just research and magic.

A good lich would probably have a project, that keeps them concerned with the day to day. Perhaps a garden that is tended daily. Something to remind the lich of the passing of days, the passing of time.

There are examples of good liches out there, and I would suggest looking into Good necromancers as well. If we can create Malconvokers who trick demons and devils into assisting mortals, using evil magic and lying to them, then we can create Necromancers and even liches that are good aligned.

The difference between a good lich and an evil lich is thus; Their philosophy, how they go about becoming a lich, and what their goals are.

[flappeercraft]

Think of it like the Ancient One from Dr Strange movie. While Good Liches do harness an evil source of power to extend their lifespan, they do so for the betterment of the world. While an undead existing is an evil act in itself, what if the undead does more good than it does evil by existing? That is what a Good Lich is.

[Darth Ultron]

A lich, a standard lich, on the other hand is the traditional wizard/cleric that do some terrible ritual to obtain an higher level of existence. And generally (and in my setting this is the case) undead are by nature "evil", because of the energies they use to exist.

A lich, like most intelligent undead, stick around for a reason to do something. The classic lich wants more time to read, experiment and get more magic. Though a lich can stick around to do other things. In general, a lich is only ''evil'' as they toss away 'normal' ways of life.

There is no reason to have necromancy as only evil magic, but even if you do just make good lich types use time magic, for example.



A good lich how could fit in this picture? I thought about making the ritual to become a good Lich being particularly harder to perform and that asks a sacrifice not from other beings but the caster itself. Yet, it's not enough imo.
This is my problem, I just can't make it fit between these concepts. Why shouldn't every wizard that want some extra time follow this route? Even a good cleric could use it effectively.


I good lich would stick around to do good things.

Not everyone wants to ''live forever'', it's a choice.

[Hyperversum]

Maybe I wasn't clear, because most of you are trying to say that "an immortal wizard can be good even when using something usually seen as evil", but that's not the point. I can perfectly see that.

But, as said in the starting point, the act itself of becoming a Lich is corrupting, according to the definition of it (and we aren't de-fluffing this part). It's not because of negative energy or anything similar, simply because such a ritual (extract your soul and re-animating yourself as a undead at the same time) is evil. Just like using corrupt spells from BoVD, but with a x10000 multiplier of corruption.
This leads to many neutral individuals to use it and end up corrupted. This DOESN'T mean that they are the evil overlord trying to destroy everything. Simply the concept here is "Even if you do it for a good reason, this ritual ****s up your mind".

If you become a Lich through the gift of someone else is the Baelnorn concept I quoted at the start, aka becoming a deathless by action of a superior being.

My point here was thinking how this template could really work. And this explicitely requires you do it by yourself, not because of the action of someone.
And my problem is... if it's just that simple, why you should even bother with standard Lichdom? Hell, if you weren't already very evil, probably you would prefer to avoid to sacrifice 10 children to something to get your immortality.

Anyway...
From the "in-universe" PoV we are ready to go. Simply using negative energy as always, but "manipulating it" in almost Malconvoker style

What I still have to anwser is how it could work in-universe (You sacrifice something? A part of you? Energy aka EXP?) and why should most "immortality seeker" with a decent morality choose this over the other one.

TL;DR The point isn't about their morality, but thet fact that the act of becoming a Lich is by definition a vile (not an evil) act. And if good lichdom has the same mastery required, normal lichdom would be nearly useless (if you weren't already a edgy ol' school necromancer).

[Feantar]

TL;DR The point isn't about their morality, but thet fact that the act of becoming a Lich is by definition a vile (not an evil) act. And if good lichdom has the same mastery required, normal lichdom would be nearly useless (if you weren't already a edgy ol' school necromancer).

Well, becoming a lich hints that it takes some kind of really reprehensible act besides sticking your soul in a phyllactery. I might interpret that as a sacrifice to some evil power. To put it another way, evil liches can become liches at level 11 because an evil power actually foots the bill (with Wish maybe?). Going by this logic, one can become a lich and be relatively uncorrupted if they find a way to get that power though other means. In the case of Baelnorns, it is either from the Seldarine, or from Arselu'Tel'Quess(Epic Spells). But someone could be able to power the ritual by sacrificing powerful magic items, or an artifact, or stealing it from another lich (not a good act but probably not an evil one either).

If you're trying to understand the technical parts of a deathless lich, maybe they make some kind of permanent portal to the Positive inside their phyllactery a la ring gates that keeps them animated. It is similar in practice to how Eberrons Deathless Court works (although they use a manifest zone).

[frogglesmash]

One of the easiest ways to fluff it is to make it a gift from a good aligned god, probably something that comes with divinely decreed duties tacked on.

[theblasblas]

The Dread Necromancer's Lich Transformation capstone does not speak of doing something evil or changing alignments. Rather the transformation is one that happens overtime as you gain class levels, this is likely due to negative energy as they do not simply channel it but rather it "flows through a dread necromancer's body". In fact, it's almost as if, unlike in the Lich template's description, the transformation is in a way "involuntary" in the same sense that a Monk cannot refuse to become an outsider once it reaches a certain level of enlightenment(reaches level 20). Or perhaps a better comparison would be the Alienist's descent into madness.

In this case, perhaps you could fluff a good or neutral lich as someone who has learned the secrets of the Dread Necromancers without necessarily taking it as a class?

[BloodredAi]

Froggle, as the original poster mentioned quite a few times, that's exactly what they're trying to avoid.

Also, if one doesn't mind the theatrics, this is apparently how Liches are formed in D&D (with one of the references pulled from Pathfinder)
youtube.com/watch?v=kLGetrwTHNE

This gives a bit of context on how/why Liches are auto-evil.

On the other hand, though, if we're using Pathfinder-side stuff... the Oracle class has a Curse they can select (as part of their class features, not as a spell) that basically says "Over the course of your life, you accidentally performed most of the tasks required for Lichdom. you aren't a Lich yet, and you don't know that you've done this, but you now take damage from positive energy and heal from negative energy, like an undead"

It also mentions something along the line of "the process to become a Lich is unique for every individual" (although i presume that certain aspects are completely mandatory, like a Phylactery). Also... this isn't something Alignment-locked. Even a Lawful Good Oracle can take this Curse and become an almost-Lich.

So, there's room for thought. I wouldn't recommend taking this wholesale and saying 'they became a Lich through dumb luck', but the 'it's unique to the person in question' does allow for methods that don't make you auto-evil and don't screw with you mentally, as well as explaining why it's not something every wizard can do.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Compare advanced magical technology to advanced mundane technology. Say there's an easy way to do X, but it involves high levels of radiation, toxic byproducts, blowing up bear dens (with cubs inside), and slave labour. Or there's the hard way to do X, which avoids all of the shortcuts-with-drawbacks, and consequently takes more skill, precision, time, materials--you name it. This applies just as much to X = [become a lich] as it does to any other X, be it mundane or magical. Many liches, being unscrupulous, unsentimental, and vastly ambitious, take the easy path; after all, caring is for the weak, and becoming a lich is hard enough. However, a few liches--especially those of the "revered ancestor" variety--have the mindset, the resources, and the support needed to take the difficult road, and those are what we call "good liches".

[ZamielVanWeber]

I always ruled you had to commit an unspeakable act of good. Like for evil you had to do something so foul the rules refuse to describe it, an act which causes your soul to go "forget this" and leave your body so you can grab it and shove it into a box. For good you had to do something of extreme sacrifice IN SECRET and the gentle glow of peace you feel, untouched by pride or worldly satisfaction, helps your soul float free from it's mortal chains... at which point you grab it and shove it in a box.

[nedz]

One I ran a few years ago was a Lich who had fallen out with his mates. The principle here was "The enemy of my enemy is my friend".

So he's engaged in a power struggle with some other Liches, recruits some good heroes to do his work for him (describing himself to them as the Vivimancer). It did help that the good heroes were a little dodgy themselves, well adventurers.

He was, of course, an unreliable patron, though I subverted that trope into simply being disinterested in the heroes once they had done the Lich killing thing for him.

It worked quite well.

[Andor13]

TL;DR The point isn't about their morality, but thet fact that the act of becoming a Lich is by definition a vile (not an evil) act. And if good lichdom has the same mastery required, normal lichdom would be nearly useless (if you weren't already a edgy ol' school necromancer).

Here's the deal. If you define the act of becoming a Lich as a corruptively evil act, then you only get corrupted evil Lichs. If you want a good Lich, you must change your definitions, QED. It might perhaps be worth contemplating why, exactly, becoming a Lich through ritual will automagically turn you evil, but using Magic Jar to swap your soul with a Lich's will not.

It is a trueism that D&D takes an overly simplistic approach to alignment. That is particularly the case for things like the Undead or Lycanthropy.

Consider this: Positive energy in D&D strongly linked to Good, and Negative to Evil. Good Deities only offer Positive Channeling. Evil Deities only offer Negative. This is mirrored in the Heal/Inflict lines of spells. Only, this makes absolutely no sense under D&D cosmology whatsoever. In the standard "Great Wheel" model The Positive and Negative planes, source of all +/- energy are part of the Inner Planes, connected to the Prime Material plane through the Ethereal. GOOD and EVIL, on the other hand are cosmological principles of the Outer Planes. They make up of one the the two axis of conflict that drive the doings up the Great Wheel. The Outer Planes connect to the Prime Material Plane through the Astral.

Good/Evil and Positive/Negative are not only unrelated, they are orthogonal to each other. Channeling Positive Energy from a deity makes as much sense as ordering your ice cubes from the Sahara desert.

So why the unalterable link between Good/Evil and Life/Undeath? For something like a Vampire, it makes sense, even with the best of intentions a being that needs to feed on other sentient beings must at some level come to see them as little more that cattle. But why does the same hold for something like a Mummy, or a Lich?

[hamishspence]

I think pre 3.0, mummies were "animated by positive energy" which was why they weren't always evil. 3e dropped that, but they were still usually LE rather than always Evil (any).

[Calthropstu]

I remember a few baelnorn that are canon. Most were tied to the mythals when Cormanthyr fell. I suppose a good lich could simply come about from a helm of opposite alignment easily enough.
But to just become a plain old lich who uses positive energy instead of negative? Easily enough to imagine actually.

You tie your soul to the positive material plane gaining infinite regeneration. An effect is achieved similar to the painting of dorian gray. It ties all of your emotions into a single thing which must be good in nature... which the object must represent.

[Andor13]

I remember a few baelnorn that are canon. Most were tied to the mythals when Cormanthyr fell. I suppose a good lich could simply come about from a helm of opposite alignment easily enough.
But to just become a plain old lich who uses positive energy instead of negative? Easily enough to imagine actually.

You tie your soul to the positive material plane gaining infinite regeneration. An effect is achieved similar to the painting of dorian gray. It ties all of your emotions into a single thing which must be good in nature... which the object must represent.

But it doesn't follow that being powered by Positive Energy makes you Good. Every living being is powered by positive energy, and most of them are [Samuel Jackson Reference]. Red Dragons are powered by Positive Energy. Goblins are powered by Positive Energy. Mind Flayers are powered by Positive Energy. A High Priest of Tharzidun nick-named "The puppy molester" is powered by Positive Energy.

And therefore it doesn't follow that being powered by Negative Energy makes you Evil (https://youtu.be/tWYCS6k1IOA).

Again the whole Good-Positive Evil-Negative link in standard cosmology is weaksauce.

[JyP]

I know, I know. It's one of those things you gotta "adapt" to every different setting, maybe making it a deathless rather than a normal undead and so on.
I remember at least a short story about a good lich near Myth Drannor (with Elminster) dating back from AD&D years - whereas the Deathless was added with D&D3 with Eberron I think ?

So no wonder you would have issues with mixing the 2 concepts - a "good lich" is an older version of the same idea - a "not-evil undead", from a time it was basically unheard of, when all undeads were evil beings to be killed - Forgotten Realms of old times.

D&D3 added some ways for PCs to be undead, be it through Libris Mortis, Ghostwalk, etc. Eberron even got whole countries with undeads... as with most fantasy tropes, undeads are more common now in D&D.