Eldritch Knight advice: offensive or defensive?

[Beelzebubba]

I'm building a new character for a 5th level party - an Eldritch Knight - and wanted some advice on where to take it. I haven't played one before and don't have the benefit of experience.

TL/DR:
If you've played an Eldritch Knight, what's more fun? To become really, really tanky, and therefore an implacable, unstoppable juggernaut? Or, to grab more offensive capabilities at the expense of defensive power?

--

Long boring version: I've already picked a Race, Background and Skills that are non-optimal for role-playing flavor and out-of-combat utility. (A Half-Orc Sage.) I need help with feats and spell selection. My goal is: fun.

Stats:
STR 17
DEX 8
CON 16
INT 14
WIS 14
CHA 8

The two builds I'm thinking of:

Defensive
Fighting Style: Defense
ASI/Feat: Heavy Armor Master, OR +1 STR/WIS now and Resilient WIS at 6th level
Cantrips: Chill Touch, Shocking Grasp
Spells: Absorb Elements, Longstrider, Protection from Evil and Good, Shield
Weapons: Greataxe

Offensive/Control
Fighting Style: Great Weapon Fighting
ASI/Feat: Orcish Fury
Cantrips: Firebolt, Create Bonfire
Spells: Earth Tremor, Shield, Thunderwave, Fog Cloud
Weapon: Greataxe

Edit: One caveat: we don't use SCAG content, so no Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade. We do use Xanathar's Guide and some races from Volo's Guide.

There's also blending between the two extremes, or putting off the 18 STR for a while for Mobility, Magic Initiate, Spell Sniper, Alert, or something like that. They're all on the table at this point. Experiences? Ideas? TIA!

[hymer]

My instinct would be to rely on ASI and weapon style choices to provide me with all the offensive power I expect to have, and then use my spells for defence and utility.
But something should probably go to the personality of the character. Does orcish blood rule in battle? Then I'd go for a big, two-handed weapon. Or is this character a disciplined, tactical fighter, proud of spiting the hot orcish blood? Then I'd probably turtle up with Shield Master and maximum defences.

[napoleon_in_rag]

Weird. My current character is a Half Orc EK with Sage background. But I am only at level 4.

I suggest mixing the two. Like this:

Fighting Style: Great Weapon Fighting
ASI/Feat: Heavy Armor Master
Cantrips: Green Flame Blade, Booming Blade
Spells: Absorb Elements, Shield, +2 more utility spells
Weapons: Great Sword or Glaive (For reach)

I suggest sticking with Booming Blade and Green Flame Blade as cantrips. Shocking Grasp (for example) uses a melee attack and does 1d8+2 or 6.5 avg. A great sword with green Flame Blade does 2d6 +4 (STR) +2 (INT) or 13 avg. 14.3 avg if you add in great weapon fighting rerolls.

With great weapon fighting, you always want to use a 2d6 weapon instead of a 1d12. RAW allow you to reroll a 1 or 2 on either d6. Read this to understand the effects of GWM. (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/47172/how-much-damage-does-great-weapon-fighting-add-on-average)

The Shield and Absorb Elements spells give you such a big defensive bonus that Defensive fighting style is kind of a waste. Go with something offensive.

[napoleon_in_rag]

I think you missed it, we don't use SCAG content.

So, Shocking Grasp is in anticipation of War Magic, so I can - for example - hit my current opponent with Shocking Grasp, then safely move away without getting an Attack of Opportunity, in order to smack down someone else with the Bonus Action attack and possibly Action Surge. It sacrifices damage to enable tactical options.

If I took the Mobility feat, I'd probably grab something else that has battlefield control possibilities, like Frostbite, Ray of Frost, or Lightning Lure.

You didn't mention what books you were using in your original post. I see "Create Bonfire" which is a Elemental Evil Cantrip. Which books are you using?

BTW "Create Bonfire" is not a great cantrip for an EK because it requires concentration.

I suggest using "Firebolt" or "Ray of Frost" for cantrips so you have a ranged attack that does decent damage at 5th level.

If you are an imaginative player, "Minor Illusion" is very useful.

You mention "War Magic" - are you dipping wizard? And I guess that means you are using "Xanathar's Guide to Everything". So your table uses Xanathar but not SCAG?

[napoleon_in_rag]

Oh, whoops, I deleted that part about no SCAG content when I was editing it for clarity. It's back now. We do use Xanathar's, though.

War Magic is just the 7th level Eldtritch Knight thing: "Beginning at 7th level, when you use your action to cast a cantrip, you can make one weapon attack as a bonus action."

Ahhhh.... That makes more sense. I thought maybe you meant "War Caster". Wizard has War Magic, EK has War Magic, the War Caster Feat, the War Cleric. WOTC is running out of names!

[Specter]

If you go defensive (which is a default way to go for an EK), make sure you have a way of diverting enemies to you. Sentinel and War Caster (Booming Blade) help here.

[CTurbo]

I'd take HAM at level 4 to round out that Str stat to 18 and take Sentinel at 6

Other than that, I would focus way more on offensive spells with some utility thrown in there. If you're wanting to use a Greataxe, grab GWM probably at level 8 or 12 if you'd rather max Str at 8.

Another option is to go PAM+Sentinel

I don't care for the GWF style and would probably take Defensive if using a 2 handed weapon.

[Captain Bob]

If you aren't investing in Int. then offensive spells will perpetually disappoint you given the low number of spell slots you get on an EK. Just my two cents from my own experience...I'd take utility cantrips and defensive / utility spells. Shield, Absorb Elements, Mirror Image, Fog Cloud... <insert spell without a save or attack roll here>. If you plan to pump Int. to 16 or above, blasting becomes more realistic - yet you still sort of lack the slots and progression IMO.

If you aren't using SCAG cantrips, war magic will almost always be unusable for you unless you're using blade barrier to beef it up for a round and still getting off an attack - you don't have the int. to reliably land shocking grasp or have a creature fail a save. Just attacking twice with a feat to back it up is going to be far better in terms of damage and reliability. Also don't listen to the dude that said defense fighting style is bad...You probably won't be rocking a shield so you don't need warcaster to use reaction spells. That leaves you with great weapon fighting or defense...having free AC is infinitely better. That ASI path is good for this type of character as well, 18 Str and 15 wis by 4, GWM at 6, resilient wis at 8. You have good saves against the two most devastating (wis and con), and use absorb elements for dex. You have a billion AC, and smash people with a huge weapon.



TLDR - your attacks are what's going to define you more from a damage stand point - you get the most of them out of anyone from extra attack. Run a weapon feat (GWM or PM) and use spells to keep you alive or add utility.

[stoutstien]

All the good offense melee cantrips are in xan so you're good to go. The fun part is trying to figure out if multiple attacks or using the cantrip will be better off. Booming blade + warcaster make you sticky almost like Pam Plus sentinel.

[Citan]

I'm building a new character for a 5th level party - an Eldritch Knight - and wanted some advice on where to take it. I haven't played one before and don't have the benefit of experience.

TL/DR:
If you've played an Eldritch Knight, what's more fun? To become really, really tanky, and therefore an implacable, unstoppable juggernaut? Or, to grab more offensive capabilities at the expense of defensive power?

--

Long boring version: I've already picked a Race, Background and Skills that are non-optimal for role-playing flavor and out-of-combat utility. (A Half-Orc Sage.) I need help with feats and spell selection. My goal is: fun.

Stats:
STR 17
DEX 8
CON 16
INT 14
WIS 14
CHA 8

The two builds I'm thinking of:

Defensive
Fighting Style: Defense
ASI/Feat: Heavy Armor Master, OR +1 STR/WIS now and Resilient WIS at 6th level
Cantrips: Chill Touch, Shocking Grasp
Spells: Absorb Elements, Longstrider, Protection from Evil and Good, Shield
Weapons: Greataxe

Offensive/Control
Fighting Style: Great Weapon Fighting
ASI/Feat: Orcish Fury
Cantrips: Firebolt, Create Bonfire
Spells: Earth Tremor, Shield, Thunderwave, Fog Cloud
Weapon: Greataxe

Edit: One caveat: we don't use SCAG content, so no Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade. We do use Xanathar's Guide and some races from Volo's Guide.

There's also blending between the two extremes, or putting off the 18 STR for a while for Mobility, Magic Initiate, Spell Sniper, Alert, or something like that. They're all on the table at this point. Experiences? Ideas? TIA!
Honestly, I'd mix both by rather using heavy armor + throwable weapon and shield, grabbing Warcaster soon enough. Or going dual-wielder STR based with Grappler feat so you can put someone to roast over a Create Bonfire while you continue slaying him.
But GWM is fine too. ;)

I'd just suggest you keep at least 14 INT, possibly 16 at least around char 10 when you get Eldricht Strike. Paired with War Magic, this will allow you to reliably apply cantrip riders. And a bunch of offensive spells become now extremely reliable, more than a Wizard himself. You will be limited to 1st and 2nd level though until level 13, so don't expect miracles until you get Slow or Fear. But especially with Xanathar's, even a simple Cause Fear or Earth Tremor can give you a significant advantage. ;)
On that note, Eldricht Strike War Magic benefits a tad from using ranged weapons thanks to Archery, at least unless/until your DM follows the recent turnback of Crawford about bonus actions.
It means you can for example deal damage to an enemy and immediately after prevents him from reaching your friend (Ray of Frost), imposing disadvantage on one attack (Frostbite) or pull him towards you (Lightning Lure).
You basically get a whole range of tactics opening to you, although you'd obviously need to expand cantrips known with Magic Initiate and possibly a dip in Wizard itself. And of course when you do that, you will deal (much) less damage than usual considering you get 3 attacks at level 11. It's worth it though imo. ;)

[GlenSmash!]

I think the defensive focused one will be slightly more effective in most combats, however I would choose the offensive one for the most fun.

In fact it looks very much like the EK I'm planing to play that is based on Thrall (from Warcraft) that inspired by a conversation from another thread.

[HolyAvenger7]

I was really trying to make a Sharpshooter Javelin build to work, but they don't get the -5/+10 part of the feat, and due to the item interaction rules you can only throw once a round unless you back it up with Two Weapon Fighting or a generous house rule.


Could you weapon bond the Javelin, throw, bonus action retrieve, throw again?

[Citan]

I was really trying to make a Sharpshooter Javelin build to work, but they don't get the -5/+10 part of the feat, and due to the item interaction rules you can only throw once a round unless you back it up with Two Weapon Fighting or a generous house rule.

Darts could get the -5/+10, but they're still limited by rate of fire.

It REALLY cheeses me out. I have a hard time having fun when I'm basically limited to 1 attack at 1d6+STR.

It makes it a lot more compelling to use that feat to boost Int instead and get some cantrip feasibility with a lot more flavor.

Half-Orc in gleaming silver armor, shooting Fire Bolts out of his eyes!



It basically turns War Magic into a round 2+ combat tactic, after I 'tag' them the first round. So, if a big tanky thing survives the first round and runs away, I can follow up and cower them with Cause Fear, or hit them with a Toll the Dead for better-than-one-melee-attack damage. Best case? Cause Fear is like a pro-level Vicious Mockery and makes a tough opponent whiff a full round of attacks.

I still have a hard time using those precious spell slots on offense, the more I think about it. Maybe it's a thing for really high levels only, after I get 'enough' spells. I'd still prefer to use Shield and get a full round of protection from all attacks rather than make a single opponent more vulnerable.

I'll just say this: none is plain better than the others
It's all about very different situations anyways.
- When you are isolated from others, either on purpose or unwillingly, Shield will certainly boost your chance of survive.
- A Cause Fear may actually save your whole party because you managed to apply it to a creature that your party just cannot take on right now for whatever reason.
- A Hold Person means with party ganging up you may outright kill in one round a big guy, meaning in turn you just "evaded" (potentially ^^) a whole lot of other attacks. Plus enemy's friend may flee or surrender when seeing how on of their toughest got dropped in an instant. Which is also a big thing.

The good thing is, nobody is putting a gun on your head and force one or the other way, so just pick both Shield and Cause Fear and adapt.

[KeilFX]

I'm currently playing a Half-Orc lvl7 Eldritch Knight, and I decided to make him a longbowman. He has a relatively low INT (+1 OR +2), so his spells tend towards ones that *dont* use attack rolls or save DC checks.

No matter what build, Haste will be a staple for you as a Fighter. +2 AC, ×2 movement, and +1 basic action is solid.

An offensive EK may consider Magic Initiate (Warlock) for the 1/rest Hex, as well as decent cantrips (Bladeward? Lvl7 feature "War magic" could be good for that? Though again, out-of-combat spells like prestidigitation and mage hand would serve you better, then casting a cantrip *over* weapon attacks).

Those special levels, where you get to learn a Wiz spell of any school of magic are really important. Identify(?), Misty step, Haste, Expedious retreat, Dispel magic, Summon Greater Demon (kek) are all bomb choices to consider, as you're otherwise limited to two schools (and if you're like me and have crap INT, you're limited even further).

[djreynolds]

I'm building a new character for a 5th level party - an Eldritch Knight - and wanted some advice on where to take it. I haven't played one before and don't have the benefit of experience.

TL/DR:
If you've played an Eldritch Knight, what's more fun? To become really, really tanky, and therefore an implacable, unstoppable juggernaut? Or, to grab more offensive capabilities at the expense of defensive power?

--

Long boring version: I've already picked a Race, Background and Skills that are non-optimal for role-playing flavor and out-of-combat utility. (A Half-Orc Sage.) I need help with feats and spell selection. My goal is: fun.

Stats:
STR 17
DEX 8
CON 16
INT 14
WIS 14
CHA 8

The two builds I'm thinking of:

Defensive
Fighting Style: Defense
ASI/Feat: Heavy Armor Master, OR +1 STR/WIS now and Resilient WIS at 6th level
Cantrips: Chill Touch, Shocking Grasp
Spells: Absorb Elements, Longstrider, Protection from Evil and Good, Shield
Weapons: Greataxe

Offensive/Control
Fighting Style: Great Weapon Fighting
ASI/Feat: Orcish Fury
Cantrips: Firebolt, Create Bonfire
Spells: Earth Tremor, Shield, Thunderwave, Fog Cloud
Weapon: Greataxe

Edit: One caveat: we don't use SCAG content, so no Booming Blade or Green Flame Blade. We do use Xanathar's Guide and some races from Volo's Guide.

There's also blending between the two extremes, or putting off the 18 STR for a while for Mobility, Magic Initiate, Spell Sniper, Alert, or something like that. They're all on the table at this point. Experiences? Ideas? TIA!

If you are using spells for attack, you may wish to invest more in intelligence

Grabbing a level of cleric opens up some nice utility as does a level of wizard, or even druid. You only have so many known spells. This will allow you to dump some spells like protection from evil, you could just grab it from one of these 2 dips

Look to see if a dip of druid, cleric, or wizard could help

Resilient wisdom is always a good choice, but its not always a sure thing. Grabbing resistance, or bless, or protection from evil (frees up a known spell) from cleric is easy, maybe even divine favor from war cleric

Grabbing thorn whip from druid is nice, no save large or smaller

Mobility is nice when you have 3 attacks

Last EK I played multiclassed with cleric, nature

[Deox]

Anecdotal advice:
Playing an EK now, just reached level 12.

Walking around with an 18 AC (full plate), I'm pretty comfortable with hits / misses. When I need to turtle, donning a shield and using Blur really makes me hard to hit, using Shield for some emergencies. I couple it with (UA) Tunnel Fighter and Sentinel and can be really "sticky" in places too.

Overall, the character is a very strong and balanced in both offense and defense. The chassis (assuming you're afforded some decent equipment while progressing) is sound. Missing Booming Blade and Greenflame Blade really is not an issue, especially when you get your second Extra Attack feature. In my experience, BB and GFB are great low level, but fall off in value when Extra Attack comes online. Anecdotally, I actually only cast the spells a handful of times, and found myself using other utility spells or actions.

Also, I cannot understate the value of Second Wind and especially Action Surge.

[Foxhound438]

BTW "Create Bonfire" is not a great cantrip for an EK because it requires concentration.


bonfire is fine, especially early when you don't have a lot of options for concentration competing in the first place and very few spell slots to use those options with anyways. You can go all the way to level 7 without any other spells competing (think shield, absorb elements, thunderwave, find familiar). After that you certainly get into stuff like shadow blade or blur that you would rather have, but there you're still looking at having 2 spell slots to use them with per day, so in an adventuring day enforced game you still have 3-6 fights without anything better.

Plus it's pretty good if you can make an enemy stand in place at the risk of taking an opportunity attack.

[Sigreid]

If you are willing to take a 2 level dip in wizard at some point you will get a lot of magic versatility and the ability to drop a fireball on your own location to clear the ground a bit without hurting yourself. This may also help you appear to be a much more important target to take down fast, meaning you draw attention to yourself and away from others.

[Beelzebubba]

If you are willing to take a 2 level dip in wizard at some point you will get a lot of magic versatility and the ability to drop a fireball on your own location to clear the ground a bit without hurting yourself. This may also help you appear to be a much more important target to take down fast, meaning you draw attention to yourself and away from others.

I looked into the multiclassing, and it always means delaying something else that looks cooler and has more immediate benefit until after 15th level. I mean, look at this!

6 - Feat/ASI
7 - War Magic
8 - Feat/ASI
9 - +4 Proficiency Bonus, Indomitable
10 - Eldritch Strike
11 - Third Attack
12 - Feat/ASI
13 - +4 Proficiency Bonus, 2x Indomitable
14 - Feat/ASI
15 - 30' teleport with Action Surge

Also, this happens:

Eldritch Knight 8:
Spell slots: (4) 1st level, (2) 2nd level
Knows 6 EK spells, 2 of which are 2nd level

Eldritch Knight 6 / Wizard 2:
Spell slots: (4) 1st level, (3) 2nd level
Knows 4 EK spells and 5 Wizard spells, none of which are 2nd level

So, multi-classing would net me:
- lower hit points
- delay War Magic
- delay a Feat/ASI
- I would only be up-casting 1st level spells into those extra slots
+ arcane recovery for one more 1st level spell per day
+ one more 2nd level spell slot for an up-cast 1st level spell
+ 3 more cantrips
+ have a bunch of utility ritual spells at my disposal

Regardless, by multiclassing at any time, I will always delay my acquisition of higher level spells. It trades off potency for flexibility and breadth.

So, looking it over, I'm not really sure it's worth it.

[djreynolds]

Eldritch Knight 8:
Spell slots: (4) 1st level, (2) 2nd level
Knows 6 EK spells, 2 of which are 2nd level

Eldritch Knight 6 / Wizard 2:
Spell slots: (4) 1st level, (3) 2nd level
Knows 4 EK spells and 5 Wizard spells, none of which are 2nd level

So, multi-classing would net me:
- lower hit points
- delay War Magic
- delay a Feat/ASI
- I would only be up-casting 1st level spells into those extra slots
+ arcane recovery for one more 1st level spell per day
+ one more 2nd level spell slot for an up-cast 1st level spell
+ 3 more cantrips
+ have a bunch of utility ritual spells at my disposal

Regardless, by multiclassing at any time, I will always delay my acquisition of higher level spells. It trades off potency for flexibility and breadth.

So, looking it over, I'm not really sure it's worth it.

Its just options, that at any time you can take. You don't have to.

As for feats, GWM is sweet but it may depend on your ability to be buffed with bless or obtain advantage

Mobile is nice, but can wait till like 12th level

I would max out strength, HAM, is fine.

Grab resilient wisdom

For spells, firebolt as you have no ranged attack and shocking grasp
1st level, shield, absorb elements, Tasha's hideous laughter
2nd level mirror image, flaming sphere (its like spiritual weapon, not as cool though)

I like protection from evil, it comes up, and but your cleric can use lesser restoration to fix stuff or even cast it on you.
Shield and absorb elements will carry you, Tasha's hideous laughter is awesome it can take a big giant/ogre/orc type right out of the fight until you are ready to deal with him

Blur is great, but its as good as mirror image since the latter you do not have to concentrate on.

[Sigreid]

I looked into the multiclassing, and it always means delaying something else that looks cooler and has more immediate benefit until after 15th level. I mean, look at this!

6 - Feat/ASI
7 - War Magic
8 - Feat/ASI
9 - +4 Proficiency Bonus, Indomitable
10 - Eldritch Strike
11 - Third Attack
12 - Feat/ASI
13 - +4 Proficiency Bonus, 2x Indomitable
14 - Feat/ASI
15 - 30' teleport with Action Surge

Also, this happens:

Eldritch Knight 8:
Spell slots: (4) 1st level, (2) 2nd level
Knows 6 EK spells, 2 of which are 2nd level

Eldritch Knight 6 / Wizard 2:
Spell slots: (4) 1st level, (3) 2nd level
Knows 4 EK spells and 5 Wizard spells, none of which are 2nd level

So, multi-classing would net me:
- lower hit points
- delay War Magic
- delay a Feat/ASI
- I would only be up-casting 1st level spells into those extra slots
+ arcane recovery for one more 1st level spell per day
+ one more 2nd level spell slot for an up-cast 1st level spell
+ 3 more cantrips
+ have a bunch of utility ritual spells at my disposal

Regardless, by multiclassing at any time, I will always delay my acquisition of higher level spells. It trades off potency for flexibility and breadth.

So, looking it over, I'm not really sure it's worth it.

You always have to consider the cost of multi-class. If I did the EK/Wiz multiclass what I would mainly be doing it for was sculpt spell. The ritual casting and preparation of a few first level spells would be just a little something to take the sting from the cost.

[Fire Tarrasque]

I mean... If your select goal is fun, not optimization, take the offensive route. But take shocking grasp. Shocking grasp is the best cantrip. Create bonfire is meh. Tasha's is always a great and convenient spell for the big ones.
Otherwise I suggest offensive. Murder is fun. Please don't quote me on that.

[Pex]

Take Absorb Elements for either style. It's that good. If you need to justify it for offense style remember that in addition to the damage resistance your next attack that hits deals +1d6 damage of the type you absorbed.

The Javelin idea sounds cool. With a 14 IN an attack Cantrip that uses an attack roll is fine. You want some range attack. It's not your forte, but at least you get to contribute. It's decent enough damage, and you have an ok chance to hit.