"Spontaneous" spellcasting of 5th level or lower as a Wizard?

[Uncle Pine]

A recent post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23064823&postcount=2) taught me that Primal Scholar (a 5 levels PrC from Secret of Xen'Drik) exists, and that by combining its Secret of power ability with Unfettered Heroism you can effectively every 5th level or lower spell which you have prepared an infinite amount of times/day. So this is pretty neat and slightly more streamlined than psionic batteries and self-resetting spell traps.

1) Does it actually work? I can't seem to find anything faulty in there*, but double checking never hurts.

Spend 1 action point to regain a number of spells (or spell slots, if you cast spontaneously) that you have already cast today. The total levels of the spells or spell slots regained can't exceed your class level.*Emphasis mine. I assume this is per use of the ability, otherwise you'd be limited to regaining 5 levels of spell ever throughout your whole Primal Scholar career since it's explicitly not a daily cap.


Transmutation
Level: Bard 5, Sorcerer 5, Wizard 5,
Components: V,
Casting Time: 1 immediate action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round/level

You tap deep into your own arcane power to enhance the innate heroism within you. Each round that this spell is in effect, you gain a free temporary action point. If you don't spend this point by the beginning of your next turn, you lose it (though you gain another free point in the next round while the spell is in effect). In addition, while this spell is in effect, you can use action points more than once in a single round (though you may only spend one action point to modify the result of any one die roll or action, as normal).

You must have at least one action point to cast unfettered heroism. Once this spell ends, whether the duration expires or it is dispelled, you become fatigued.

Special: Human spellcasters cast this spell at +1 caster level.


2) If you're a Wizard with at least 22 Int, can you take Uncanny Forethought and leave a single spell slot open at each level between 0 and 5th level to cast any spell that you know as a full-round action and restore any of those slot as detailed above for unlimited "spontaneous" spellcasting of every 5th level or lower spell that you know (but not RAW spontaneous, so let's not get on an Ultimate Magus tangent)?

When preparing your daily allotment of spells, you can reserve a number of spell slots equal to your Intelligence modifier. As a standard action, you can use one of these slots to cast a spell that you selected for the Spell Mastery feat. The level of the slot used must be equal to or greater than the level of the spell you intend to cast.

Alternatively, as a full-round action, you can use a reserved slot to cast any spell that you know. The spell is resolved as normal, but for the purpose of the spell, your caster level is reduced by two. The level of the slot used must be equal to or greater than the level of the spell you intend to cast.

[Zaq]

Unfettered Heroism is well-known cheese*, but if you're comfortable using it at all, it's pretty straightforward that it should work with Secret of Power.

*It's weird to refer to using a spell for something that's darned close to its intended purpose as "cheese," but I call PAO cheese too, so whatevs. The real cheesy part comes from using APs as currency to activate abilities rather than as simple bonuses, but it's not like the book that introduced the AP mechanic in question didn't have "APs as currency" in it, so here we are.

Anyway. It's less clear that it would let you keep spontaneity. Secret of Power spells out that you already have to have cast the spell today, and as you said, you aren't officially a spontaneous caster by RAW. Accordingly, my gut reading is that you'd be able to recall the spell you cast with UF, but you wouldn't be able to recall the uncast UF slot.

Basically, my reading is that since you aren't actually a spontaneous spellcaster, you don't trigger the parenthetical "(or spell slots, if you cast spontaneously)" clause, so you're left with only the "spells [. . .] that you have already cast today" clause.

[ViperMagnum357]

If you think that is borked, remember Legacy Champion-you can increase your effective class level in perpetuity for Primal Scholar, allowing you to freely replace all of your spell slots through 9ths, straight into your 10+ non-epic slots for metamagic. And do not forget about Mystery of Giants: add that to metamagic reducers for a bunch of free metamagic at will.

[Mato]

It is a little overrated. UA's action points can be spent to reuse any class feature with a limit per day, like 9th level spell slots or the anima mage's vestige casting.

What would you expect for breaking the limitations of usage on something finitely limited then 9th level spells?

[ryu]

There's a much simpler method to be spontaneous as a wizard. Just take spontaneous divination and use that to qualify for versatile spellcaster. Bam. You're a fully spontaneous wizard and you didn't even need PRCs.

[Uncle Pine]

Unfettered Heroism is well-known cheese*, but if you're comfortable using it at all, it's pretty straightforward that it should work with Secret of Power.

*It's weird to refer to using a spell for something that's darned close to its intended purpose as "cheese," but I call PAO cheese too, so whatevs. The real cheesy part comes from using APs as currency to activate abilities rather than as simple bonuses, but it's not like the book that introduced the AP mechanic in question didn't have "APs as currency" in it, so here we are.

Anyway. It's less clear that it would let you keep spontaneity. Secret of Power spells out that you already have to have cast the spell today, and as you said, you aren't officially a spontaneous caster by RAW. Accordingly, my gut reading is that you'd be able to recall the spell you cast with UF, but you wouldn't be able to recall the uncast UF slot.

Basically, my reading is that since you aren't actually a spontaneous spellcaster, you don't trigger the parenthetical "(or spell slots, if you cast spontaneously)" clause, so you're left with only the "spells [. . .] that you have already cast today" clause.
See? Double checking is always worth! I didn't go back to reread the bit between parentheses and simply approached Uncanny Forethought thinking I could recall the spell slot as a Wizard. Thanks for the correction.


If you think that is borked, remember Legacy Champion-you can increase your effective class level in perpetuity for Primal Scholar, allowing you to freely replace all of your spell slots through 9ths, straight into your 10+ non-epic slots for metamagic. And do not forget about Mystery of Giants: add that to metamagic reducers for a bunch of free metamagic at will.
Legacy Champion was a shower thought I had right after posting. Even though you wouldn't be able to cast an infinite amount of any of your spells (because the Uncanny Forethought trick doesn't work), being able to prepare a different spell in each of your spell slots and cast it every round for free 24/7 is definitely an immense boost in versatility. The kind of versatility an easy bake wizard would love to achieve.


It is a little overrated. UA's action points can be spent to reuse any class feature with a limit per day, like 9th level spell slots or the anima mage's vestige casting.

What would you expect for breaking the limitations of usage on something finitely limited then 9th level spells?
I didn't know about UA's action points! Thanks for bringing them up.
They kinda make Primal Scholar entirely useless, but if your DM chooses to pick them over Eberron's action points you're golden and can simply cast infinite all your spells infinite times/day as soon as you get access to Unfettered Heroism... Which is probably why they wouldn't fly at any table, whereas devoting 10 entire levels (Primal Scholar 5/Legacy Champion 5) to get the same benefit might work.


There's a much simpler method to be spontaneous as a wizard. Just take spontaneous divination and use that to qualify for versatile spellcaster. Bam. You're a fully spontaneous wizard and you didn't even need PRCs.
The goal was to get infinite spells by being a not-so-spontaneous wizard, not being a spontaneous wizard without infinite spells.

[ryu]

Then the trick is spell engine if I remember properly. Spell engines allow some really easy access to all the spells you want.

Spell engine (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/spells/magic-of-faerun--20/spell-engine--1590/)

Rod of Absorption (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/items/dungeon-masters-guide-v35--4/rod-absorption--194/index.html)

Now you have all the spells you could want.

[Mato]

I didn't know about UA's action points! Thanks for bringing them up.
They kinda make Primal Scholar entirely useless, but if your DM chooses to pick them over Eberron's action points you're golden and can simply cast infinite all your spells infinite times/day as soon as you get access to Unfettered Heroism... Which is probably why they wouldn't fly at any table, whereas devoting 10 entire levels (Primal Scholar 5/Legacy Champion 5) to get the same benefit might work.I don't really get GitP's fascination with naming things, which fallacy is that? Is it unnammed? If so, dibs.

Mato's Facepalm
A type of mind projection fallacy where you claim a DM will ban something if you use it. But they will not if you, like, invest a level in a PrC for it or something.



There's a much simpler method to be spontaneous as a wizard. Just take spontaneous divination and use that to qualify for versatile spellcaster. Bam. You're a fully spontaneous wizard and you didn't even need PRCs.Spontaneous divination cannot work unless you prepare spells.

Benefit: You can spontaneously cast any spell of the divination school by sacrificing a prepared spell of equal or greater level.
But the rules say

Some characters can cast spells, but they don’t need spellbooks, nor do they prepare their spells. They can cast any spell they know using a daily allotment of spell slots. These characters are called spontaneous spellcasters.
So no the spontaneous divination wizard is not a spontaneous spellcaster.



Then the trick is spell engine if I remember properly. Spell engines allow some really easy access to all the spells you want.
Spell engine (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/spells/magic-of-faerun--20/spell-engine--1590/)I like how you used a 3.0 spell printed in 2001 instead of the 3.5 version printed in 2005 in order to completely make up the part where the spell engine allows you to cast any of the absorbed spells just so you could try to contribute something. But misleading people with bad information is worse than not saying anything at all.

Next time try something legal, like a repeated echoing spell to produce an absurd amount of prepared spells during a wizard's downtime or whatever.

[Nifft]

I think that any DM who allows Unfettered Heroism would tend to only allow it with Eberron's action points, since it's a setting-specific spell from Eberron in the first place.

So I think that any build which assumes a combination of Unfettered Heroism + UA Action Points is unlikely to be allowed.


There's some min-max work on Primal Scholar over here: http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=18026.0

[ryu]

I like how you immediately assume a person listing off possible versions of solutions to the stated problem, and then googling a source of the remembered spell to show such things is attempting to mislead as opposed to not having memorized literally every iteration of every book. Really polite thing to do.

[Mato]

then googling a source of the remembered spell to show such things is attempting to mislead as opposed to not having memorized literally every iteration of every book.Maybe you didn't intend to mislead anyone but my point was misleading people with bad information is worse than not saying anything at all.

Here, I have a reference that you can try reading when you get a chance to.

Spell engine (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/spells/magic-of-faerun--20/spell-engine--1590/)
Even if you are unsure about magic of Faerun that link has a warning banner near the top saying it's from the 3.0 rule se. And if you look near the bottom it even lists a link to the SpC version so you can check out that one too.



I think that any DM who allows Unfettered Heroism would tend to only allow it with Eberron's action points, since it's a setting-specific spell from Eberron in the first place.Well if your DM is allowing content from Unearthed Arcana but not Eberron you can trying using one of the variant magic systems offered instead. Like recharge magic or vitalizing spell points combined with a ray of resurgence. :smallsmile:

[ryu]

And did you stop and consider that maybe, just maybe, it was a brief google reference search where I briefly confirmed the spell said what I remembered it saying? That there was the expectation that anyone seriously planning on using the thing would read it in full, and if necessary run it by DM? For pity's sake it's as though you expect remembrance not just of what spells are reprinted in a group of literal hundreds and more specifically which are reprinted with significant differences.

Accusing someone of being deliberately misleading, and that's exactly what words like "making it up" mean don't hide it, is rude.

[Uncle Pine]

I don't really get GitP's fascination with naming things, which fallacy is that? Is it unnammed? If so, dibs.

Mato's Facepalm
A type of mind projection fallacy where you claim a DM will ban something if you use it. But they will not if you, like, invest a level in a PrC for it or something.
I don't see it as a fallacy: players like free things, DMs usually strive for a coherent setting where they can drop situations for the PCs to react to. If the PCs start getting loads of stuff for free by (ab)using some basic rules, it goes without saying that a) they're the most intelligent beings that ever lived, because no one had ever thought of using simple physics (i.e. action points everyone gets) to obtain infinite power, or b) the DM has to acknowledge that someone must've tried to do the same before and succeeded at it. Option b) inherently ups the power level of the campaign (by making infinite spellcasters commonplace, for example) or force the DM to introduce significant alterations in the campaign geopolitics (for example to address why salt or iron are worth nothing, or why you can't split a ladder into two wooden sticks). The only other option is invoking the Gentlemen's Agreement and simply say no.
In some cases*, the above scenario can be sidestepped if the player has to devote a big amount of resources, feats, levels, etc. throughout the campaign to achieve the same amount of extraordinary, but still somewhat sensible, power: every person in the world has access to action point, every character with UMD can activate a wand of unfettered heroism, but not every spellcaster is a Primal Scholar. Hiding the power of "infinite spells" behind a wall of resources makes it much more plausible from a worldbuilding point of view.

*Some stuff is still unlikely to be plausible, such as festering anger cancer mage and the likes. Your DM's mileage may vary.


I think that any DM who allows Unfettered Heroism would tend to only allow it with Eberron's action points, since it's a setting-specific spell from Eberron in the first place.

So I think that any build which assumes a combination of Unfettered Heroism + UA Action Points is unlikely to be allowed.


There's some min-max work on Primal Scholar over here: http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=18026.0
Thanks for the link!


Then the trick is spell engine if I remember properly. Spell engines allow some really easy access to all the spells you want.

Spell engine (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/spells/magic-of-faerun--20/spell-engine--1590/)

Rod of Absorption (http://dnd.arkalseif.info/items/dungeon-masters-guide-v35--4/rod-absorption--194/index.html)

Now you have all the spells you could want.
You're thinking of 3.5e's Energy Transformation Field (also from the Spell Compendium), which can be used to create an infinite amount of self-resetting "traps" that you can activate on demand by poking at them. That's what I was referring to in the OP. Still, you can use Spell Engine to swap out your selection of at-will prepared spells so that's pretty awesome. :smallsmile:

[ryu]

Also you have the option of casting wish to mitigate the time to a standard if the ten minute casting time is still too high.

I'd still much rather do the versatile spellcaster trick as opposed to switching out. Pulling unprepared things from your butt immediately as opposed to after an action of setup is a BIG difference.

[Zanos]

Yeah that's not a fallacy at all. Levels are one of the basic currencies of character building. Any sane DM is more likely to allow a trick if it costs 10 levels instead of 1 spell.

Of course that doesn't mean that everything that costs 10 levels is fair game.

[Mato]

Yeah that's not a fallacy at all. Levels are one of the basic currencies of character building.You have the outlook it's a currency, implying you traded something away that pays for your preferred option. Like maybe you think a primal scholar traded away the ability to use take four levels in the incantatrix to apply metamagics to his spells but he doesn't have to. He doesn't sacrifice spells known, prepared, and through infinite slots he can simply cast a spell to swap away his prepared spells. He really doesn't pay for anything since those legacy champion levels continue to reward him in other ways as well, such as offering a free item of legacy that provides even more spells and free metamagics with extra uses tied to those abilities.

And that's because Levels operate more as a scaling gateway, the more you accumulate the more options you have and the more options your opponents are supposed to have. A good example is a 17th level wizard gets one normal 9th level spell, an 18th gets two, a 19th gets three, and a 20th gets four. He isn't paying for anything, he is accumulating things as he gains levels. But the primal scholar / legacy champion has infinite slots at level 18, and level 19, and level 20. He has broken the entire point of leveling much like Pun-Pun does, even the increases with caster level are useless when you can use spells to increase that anyway. In other words and more in line with your style of thinking, the primal scholar has reduced the value of leveling so he cannot use it to buy things.

Pine's post summarizes more to to that obrownie thing or w/e. PCs want free stuff and that's why the DM uses rule 0 to fix it or everyone plays under a gentleman's agreement. This is more about admitting something breaks the game in such a way DMs would ban existence of it, and then saying it's totally allowed anyway because you personally think you can come up with a valid excuse or circumstance that it would be allowed even if it's banned anyway.

A more off topic example is a DM saying no to a player wanting to play as an an adult true dragon, so someone else just suggests persisting shapechange to play as an adult true dragon. Contextually the topic moved from the DM not wanting you to ignore HD/LA to using a metamagic cost ignoring 17th level caster ignoring HD/LA anyway which is even worse. In topic if you think DM would ban infinite 5th level spells then you really shouldn't try to say in the same breath that infinite 5th level spells, and infinite 6ths, and infinite 7ths, and infinite 8ths, and infinite 9ths, would totally be allowed anyway if you just spend five more levels in it. And this sort of estrange thinking that happens a lot more then it should on here. And don't worry, I'm sure I'll get to reexplain this a lot over the next decade.

[Uncle Pine]

Pine's post summarizes more to to that obrownie thing or w/e. PCs want free stuff and that's why the DM uses rule 0 to fix it or everyone plays under a gentleman's agreement. This is more about admitting something breaks the game in such a way DMs would ban existence of it, and then saying it's totally allowed anyway because you personally think you can come up with a valid excuse or circumstance that it would be allowed even if it's banned anyway.
My post was actually about approaching power levels and "tricks" in the rules in order to mantain internal consistency in a campaign world, with a caveat about infinites (or NI) scores because I really don't think there is a satisfying way to include them in a coherent world.

[Cosi]

A type of mind projection fallacy where you claim a DM will ban something if you use it. But they will not if you, like, invest a level in a PrC for it or something.

Your argument is bad. While there are certainly some things that would be banned regardless of whether you sunk ten levels (and a lost caster level) into them, there are others that would be banned in the former case, but not the latter. Consider, for example, the Mindbender. I think anyone would agree that getting all the Mindbender's class features for a single spell would be completely broken. But no one wants to ban Mindbender. Clearly it is entirely possible for something that is broken at one cost to not be broken at a higher cost.

Actually, that last point should be entirely sufficient to demonstrate why you are wrong -- paying more for something is necessarily less powerful than paying less for that thing. Resultantly, it is not sufficient to say "it is broken to get that via a spell" to prove that a PrC which grants something is broken.

[Zanos]

...
You're expending the preqreqs for both prestige classes, the opportunity to take prestige classes that have other effects, and one caster level from legacy champion. And while it's not how it's supposed to work, Legacy Weapons are complete garbage that hurt more than they help, especially to someone with infinite spells. Overall, is that a fair trade? Probably not. But having no trade off is a less defensible position than having some trade off, just because that's how levels work.

The real problem is that you tried to generalize it. It's basic conceit of character construction that there's a situation where a DM won't allow X if you expended Y, but will allow X if you expend Z. It's pretty much a core concept of character building in almost any system.

Whether or not infinite spell slots is one of those things is entirely dependent on your DM.

Really, it's not like my post was that long:


Of course that doesn't mean that everything that costs 10 levels is fair game.

[Mato]

Your argument is bad.And your understanding is bad.

Your example of the mindbender is simply inapplicable. In order for Mato's Facepalm to apply you have to project the idea that it's so broken most DMs would ban it onto other people. Then is then immediately followed by contradictory claim that it won't be banned if you follow a certain circumstance as defined by you. This is what makes it a type mind projection fallacy, because they have assume our views on the matter match their own. Both on whether or not it should be banned and what kind of circumstances might allow it to be permittable.

You are trying to say there is a circumstance that Mindbender can be allowed and that's fine. As long as you don't claim we'll ban it off our tables and then contradict your self saying it should be allowed under your set of circumstances then you'll avoid the internal contradiction of the claim and mind projection fallacy of assuming what we will or will not agree with.

[Zanos]

I believe I understand. The name is what the reader does upon hearing the argument.

[Cosi]

As long as you don't claim we'll ban it off our tables and then contradict your self saying it should be allowed under your set of circumstances then you'll avoid the internal contradiction of the claim and mind projection fallacy of assuming what we will or will not agree with.

Well, that's not what anyone said, so I guess my bad for assuming you were replying to the arguments posted in the thread you posted in?

The argument Pine made was quite clearly of the cost form that is totally reasonable. He said "doing this flat out is cheese, but doing this after sinking resources into it might be okay". That is 100% a reasonable argument, and apparently 0% something that your fallacy applies to.