Teamwork Across Tiers

[AnimeTheCat]

Ok, so a lot of people don't like fighters. That's fine, I do. I was perusing the Miniatures Handbook and found the shieldmate feat. Ordinarily, I find these "adjacent ally" feats to be really crummy. What if the fighter took these feats and then used the Druids animal companion as a mount? Hear me out before you discount this.

It supports the druid by reducing the amount of buffing necessary to support the AC. With mounted combat, the survivability of the AC goes up. With shieldmate, the AC gets a +1 shield bonus to Armor Class anytime the fighter is mounted. Improved shieldmate improves this to +2.

I'm curious as to how the fighter would interact with the AC. For instance, could the fighter use Handle Animal to direct the animal companion to charge and use ride to fight with mount? I'm also certain there are more adjacent ally feats that are better than shieldmate, but I can't think of them off the top of my head.

I doubt this is a revolutionary thought, but I did think it was neat and I didn't recall seeing anything like this before.

EDIT: I forgot to add; if you have input on the above, I would be interested in hearing it. If you have other thoughts along the same lines, that is unconventional applications of low tier classes supporting high tier classes, those additions would be appreciated.

[Goaty14]

That's a real crummy idea. I mean, if you *really* wanted to stop the AC from getting murdered from attacks, you'd just invest skill points into ride, take mounted combat, and then pump ride into the high heavens.

Even then, using a Riding Shield (RoS) gives the +2 AC bonus to you and the mount, so yes, the feat *is* really crummy.

[Aetis]

I'm sure the druid would prefer to gain xp and treasure at a faster rate than to split it with the ill-mannered scoundrel who insists on riding the druid's fleshraker.

[Florian]

Ok, this is a Pathfinder perspective to it: It´s basically a dream come true when you can pair a martial with the right archetype up with a druids animal companion. The synergy between a, say, Mounted Fury or Dragoon and an AC is... let's put it... brutal.

As for skills: Even the druid has to use handle animal and ride to manage the AC to perform the learned tricks. Yes, that can fail and is something that tends to be disregarded in certain discussions.

[Troacctid]

Why don't you use the druid as a mount instead? Seems more useful to protect than the animal companion.

[ryu]

Why don't you use the druid as a mount instead? Seems more useful to protect than the animal companion.

Because that's too kinky and even if it weren't the druid would demand to be on top.

But no seriously I'm pretty sure humanoids don't count as mountable.

[RoboEmperor]

But no seriously I'm pretty sure humanoids don't count as mountable.

All creatures can be mounted.

Problem is Carry Weight. Characters gear + characters weight is more than most characters can carry.

[Florian]

Why don't you use the druid as a mount instead? Seems more useful to protect than the animal companion.

Again, a slightly PF-based answer, but....

1) Can´t use Ride skill to deflect a hit

2) Economy of Actions.

3) Full Attack dependency. Going onto details, you'll want a full rage on spirited charge pounce attack, which is something that excludes spellcasting or using SLA.

[AnimeTheCat]

That's a real crummy idea. I mean, if you *really* wanted to stop the AC from getting murdered from attacks, you'd just invest skill points into ride, take mounted combat, and then pump ride into the high heavens.

Even then, using a Riding Shield (RoS) gives the +2 AC bonus to you and the mount, so yes, the feat *is* really crummy.

Mounted combat can only be used once per round. And a riders shield is only applicable to the mount and is an exotic shield that may or may not be allowed.

Granted, I know the feat is crummy and I said that from the beginning. The concept of using tactical and teamwork feats to benefit the AC, and thus the druid, isn't crummy.


I'm sure the druid would prefer to gain xp and treasure at a faster rate than to split it with the ill-mannered scoundrel who insists on riding the druid's fleshraker.

I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about... I'm assuming that you're talking about just not having a fighter which is:
1. Not teamwork, and
2. Had nothing to do with the intent of the thread.

Aside from that, are you under the impression the player would simply expect it, or do you think that this would be something discussed and agreed upon by the players?

[JNAProductions]

Because that's too kinky and even if it weren't the druid would demand to be on top.

But no seriously I'm pretty sure humanoids don't count as mountable.

...

Wild Shape?

As to the thread: There are probably more effective things to spend your feats on, if you're a Fighter in a game with a well-built Druid. It depends on how optimized everyone is.

I will say, I was expecting to see T1s or T2s helping T3s or lower, not the other way around.

[AnimeTheCat]

...

Wild Shape?

As to the thread: There are probably more effective things to spend your feats on, if you're a Fighter in a game with a well-built Druid. It depends on how optimized everyone is.

I will say, I was expecting to see T1s or T2s helping T3s or lower, not the other way around.

Right, and that was the point. Especially when talking about beneficial contribution, most people do think top-down. I was trying to think of fighter bonus feats that apply to team mates, which can be applied either to the Druids AC, the druid when wildshaped, or any other time the fighter happens to be adjacent to an ally.

[JNAProductions]

Right, and that was the point. Especially when talking about beneficial contribution, most people do think top-down. I was trying to think of fighter bonus feats that apply to team mates, which can be applied either to the Druids AC, the druid when wildshaped, or any other time the fighter happens to be adjacent to an ally.

If the game is low-op, tiers don't matter so much.

If the game is high-op, a Druid either has all the AC they could ever want or just plain doesn't care about AC.

I don't really see a situation where this is especially helpful when tiers matter.

[RoboEmperor]

If the game is low-op, tiers don't matter so much.

If the game is high-op, a Druid either has all the AC they could ever want or just plain doesn't care about AC.

I don't really see a situation where this is especially helpful when tiers matter.

I second this.

[AnimeTheCat]

I guess I just prefer low-op games where people work as a team, obstacles are overcome as a group, the members collaborate on how to be inclusive and play to each others strengths, and people aren't constantly whining about the fact that some players aren't playing T1 [insert desired explative].

Seriously... I get tired of people telling me to play something with magic or "sword magic" when I don't wanna do that. Forgive me for being upset when trying to start a conversation about inclusion and teamwork, and it gets perverted by people turning it into a thread abut personal back patting and exclusion.

If anyone questions why the community is dwindling, look no further than these forums here because they scream exclusion and personal gain rather than teamwork and inclusion.

[JNAProductions]

I guess I just prefer low-op games where people work as a team, obstacles are overcome as a group, the members collaborate on how to be inclusive and play to each others strengths, and people aren't constantly whining about the fact that some players aren't playing T1 [insert desired explative].

Seriously... I get tired of people telling me to play something with magic or "sword magic" when I don't wanna do that. Forgive me for being upset when trying to start a conversation about inclusion and teamwork, and it gets perverted by people turning it into a thread abut personal back patting and exclusion.

If anyone questions why the community is dwindling, look no further than these forums here because they scream exclusion and personal gain rather than teamwork and inclusion.

No one is saying that. What's being said is that, if the tier system is in play (as in, everyone is moderately-to-heavily optimized) 2 AC is basically irrelevant.

This is a nice ability to have in a low-op game, and I don't think anyone here has said "Low-op is trash!" or anything like that. It's a preference, same as, say, open-world or linear; or like magic or muscle or gishing.

But, ASSUMING PEOPLE ARE OPTIMIZED ENOUGH TO MERIT THE TIER SYSTEM, there's really not much a T4 character can do to help a T1 character, outside their one, very specific niche (massive bodily harm).

Now, if you're in a game where where the most optimization people do is good stat allocation, and they pick feats based entirely on what feels right, not on numbers, then yeah. +2 AC is probably a big boost to another Fighter or, yes, the Druid. But that's not a game where the tier system matters.

[RoboEmperor]

I guess I just prefer low-op games where people work as a team, obstacles are overcome as a group, the members collaborate on how to be inclusive and play to each others strengths, and people aren't constantly whining about the fact that some players aren't playing T1 [insert desired explative].

Seriously... I get tired of people telling me to play something with magic or "sword magic" when I don't wanna do that. Forgive me for being upset when trying to start a conversation about inclusion and teamwork, and it gets perverted by people turning it into a thread abut personal back patting and exclusion.

If anyone questions why the community is dwindling, look no further than these forums here because they scream exclusion and personal gain rather than teamwork and inclusion.

What we're saying is
1. Low-op, sure, your teamwork thing sounds like a fun party shtick that can lead to some very fun encounters.
2. High-op, nope, your teamwork thing is suboptimal so it's bad.

That's it.

If you want this "teamwork" to work at high-op, come up with something that makes the teamworking mundane and caster surpass double caster or a single caster with more xp. Otherwise it's suboptimal and therefore not high-op.

[Deophaun]

The fighter is better off taking Martial Study and grabbing the shield block Devoted Spirit maneuver if that's what you want to do. Actually, the fighter is just better off being a Crusader and focusing on Devoted Spirit and White Raven maneuvers, because they actually do teamwork well.

What we're saying is
1. Low-op, sure, your teamwork thing sounds like a fun party shtick that can lead to some very fun encounters.
2. High-op, nope, your teamwork thing is suboptimal so it's bad.
There's also mid-op, where you care about things like AC enough so the DM doesn't cast animate books at you. Though a situational 1 AC for a feat is pretty bad there as well.

Seriously... I get tired of people telling me to play something with magic or "sword magic" when I don't wanna do that.
Then don't do that. But you are going to run smack into the fact that people who do enjoy teamwork and also using magic or "good martial design" are going to completely outclass you.

[Dimers]

riders shield is only applicable to the mount and is an exotic shield that may or may not be allowed.

The shield is explicitly applicable to both rider and mount, while only costing you a single feat rather than the two from Miniatures. There's a significant chance that the DM would also allow a rider's shield enhancement bonus to apply to both characters, and a small chance she'd apply the shield's OTHER benefits to both characters (like ghost touch or what-have-you).

Miniatures Handbook content is no more likely to be acceptable than Races of Stone content, so "may or may not be allowed" isn't a powerful argument in favor of one over the other.

Shieldmate does have one advantage over Exotic Shield Proficiency, in that the bonus applies to all adjacent allies. That's not a benefit I'd personally spend resources on, but I'm not you.

In any case, why argue for two self-proclaimed "crummy" feats over one with a similar (probably better) benefit that matches the flavor just as well?

EDIT: Ahh, you were probably saying "rider's shield doesn't benefit other adjacent allies" rather than "rider's shield doesn't benefit the user". Still, I stand by my judgement that a large benefit for one creature that's likely to stay with you is more useful than a small, expensive benefit for multiple allies tidily gathered up in fireball formation.