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Tyger
2007-09-04, 10:38 PM
OK, wondering if anyone has any gear suggestions for a level 8 character. Cleric 1 / Crusader 4 / Ruby Knight 3. Amount to spend is 1/2 WBL or 13,500 GP.

Try to keep it to core, though MIC is possible. DM is pretty strict on items from MIC that replace DMG items at a fraction of the cost (like the crystals) so DMG items are preferable.

The character is one of three warrior types (ranger and monk/PW being the other two) with a cleric and scout filling out the roster.

Thoughts?

SadisticFishing
2007-09-04, 10:45 PM
Ick. Ruby Knight is rather abusable, though the wording on "Divine Impetus" actually infers only one use per round - don't EVER use it more than once a round, or your DM will become frustrated. No, not even to shirk death by a Barghest. Ever.

Other than that, take the Devoted Spirit, White Raven, and Shadow Hand maneuvers and stances, the best ones (no time to list them all, Divine Surge is a lot of damage for its level though). Stances that help the party are probably the best (Wolf Tactics, or whatever it's called, more damage when flanking is awesome). Thicket of Blades is pretty good too, though, luckily you have two swift actions a round if necessary to switch stances. Take the teleporting Shadow Hand maneuvers and just control the field while beating face.

SadisticFishing
2007-09-04, 10:48 PM
Errr, if you just mean gear, get a +X weapon, +X strength and +X constitution items, then +X shield, +X armor, and +X natural/deflection armor. Your stances and strikes give you all the versatility you need.

Also pick up some potions of flight.

Mwk weapon
+2 strength
+2 con
+1 shield
+1 armor
+1 ring of protection
+1 Cloak of Resistance

is 13,000

Yay AC!

Tyger
2007-09-04, 10:53 PM
Errr, if you just mean gear, get a +X weapon, +X strength and +X constitution items, then +X shield, +X armor, and +X natural/deflection armor. Your stances and strikes give you all the versatility you need.

Also pick up some potions of flight.

Mwk weapon
+2 strength
+2 con
+1 shield
+1 armor
+1 ring of protection
+1 Cloak of Resistance

is 13,000

Yay AC!

Good ideas all.

I should note that just his basic weapons and armor come to 2068 gold:
Spiked fullplate
Extreme Shield
Composite Longbow (Str +3)
Greatsword
(2) Short swords
Warhammer
Longspear.

So, really, only 11,432 to work with. Hadn't thought of the +Str belt though... good thought there. And AC is always your friend.

As for the maneuver advice, pretty much exactly what I was thinking. And yeah, I agree that the wording indicates you can only use that ability once a round. Otherwise it just opens up too many ugly doors.

SadisticFishing
2007-09-04, 11:00 PM
Ah I forgot the price of full plate - drop the deflection AC for now, I think.

+1 weapons aren't worth very much, by the by - just cast Magic Weapon on it, and even if it's not up 1 damage is not a big difference, unlike +2 weapons, from which you get +1 attack and +2 damage. +attack is awesome.

Oh, and White Raven Tactics (the one that gives an ally a turn?) is also completely ridiculous, even with the "once a round" of Divine Impetus.

Whoever wrote the ToB is silly -_- so much abusable stuff there, though the non-abusable stuff is really cool and balanced.

Tyger
2007-09-04, 11:02 PM
Ah I forgot the price of full plate - drop the deflection AC for now, I think.

+1 weapons aren't worth very much, by the by - just cast Magic Weapon on it, and even if it's not up 1 damage is not a big difference, unlike +2 weapons, from which you get +1 attack and +2 damage. +attack is awesome.

Oh, and White Raven Tactics (the one that gives an ally a turn?) is also completely ridiculous, even with the "once a round" of Divine Impetus.

Whoever wrote the ToB is silly -_- so much abusable stuff there, though the non-abusable stuff is really cool and balanced.

I keep hearing people saying that White Raven tactics is seriously broken, and it certainly could be if you use it to give the mage another turn... but in our party, with no caster, its not nearly that bad. I took it, and will likely use it, but only judiciously and in emergencies.

Reel On, Love
2007-09-04, 11:05 PM
WIS item over CON.

I'd suggest Cleric 6/Crusader 1/RKV 1, actually. That way, you can pick up the Thicket of Blades stance with the stance you gain at RKV 1 (IL 6/2 +1 + 1 = 5).

Use Enlarge Person (from an ally, potions, or the Strength domain if you're not using the Wee Jas fluff), a guisarme, and take Combat Reflexes and Combat Expertise + Improved Trip, or at least Stand Still. You can use Thicket of Blades to generate more AoOs, or (like if you do go Cleric 4/Crusader 1/RKV 3) Iron Guard's Glare to protect your allies (while using Stand Still or tripping on enemies trying to approach you).


Fishing, "so much"? Like what? Iron Heart Surge, White Raven Tactics, and Divine Impetus are pretty much the only abuseable things in the ToB. Well, those, and a highly specialized build focusing on the Stormguard Warrior tactical feat and getting Avalanche of Blades and TWF.
That's a far better track record than the vast majority of books--especially core.

Tyger
2007-09-04, 11:08 PM
WIS item over CON.

I'd suggest Cleric 6/Crusader 1/RKV 1, actually. That way, you can pick up the Thicket of Blades stance with the stance you gain at RKV 1 (IL 6/2 +1 + 1 = 5).

Use Enlarge Person (from an ally, potions, or the Strength domain if you're not using the Wee Jas fluff), a guisarme, and take Combat Reflexes and Combat Expertise + Improved Trip, or at least Stand Still. You can use Thicket of Blades to generate more AoOs, or (like if you do go Cleric 4/Crusader 1/RKV 3) Iron Guard's Glare to protect your allies (while using Stand Still or tripping on enemies trying to approach you).

Thanks, but the build doesn't allow for these suggestions. Character has a 10 DEX, so just no point going that route.

Build suggestions are appreciated, but really, that part is done. Just looking for gear advice at this point.

Vonriel
2007-09-04, 11:41 PM
Tyger, one thing you should note about this forum is that no matter what you ask for, as long as a character build is involved, someone will try to suggest something different, even if you make it clear you don't want help with said build. I don't know why this is, but it is.

yango
2007-09-04, 11:51 PM
I keep hearing people saying that White Raven tactics is seriously broken, and it certainly could be if you use it to give the mage another turn... but in our party, with no caster, its not nearly that bad. I took it, and will likely use it, but only judiciously and in emergencies.

WRT was broken before because with the CustServ rulings on allies, as well as their ruling on the Crusader recovery mechanic, you could continuously give yourself turns (since the spent maneuver would refresh every turn, and since you are technically your own ally, you could use it on yourself).

Both rulings have been overturned, making it very good, but not broken.

Tyger
2007-09-05, 05:02 AM
OK, here's what I am thinking thus far.

Gauntlets of Ogre Strength
Cloak of Resistance +1
+1 Full Plate
+1 Extreme Shield
+1 Greatsword
Healing Belt (MIC Item)
4 Masterwork weapons
Basic Gear

Works out to about 13000.

Thoughts?

Saph
2007-09-05, 06:59 AM
Looks pretty good. You'll need access to a healing wand somehow (healing wands are good), so it might be worth getting that in place of the Belt of Healing. If not, just persuade the group to buy one with party funds.

Scrolls of cheap, useful spells like Prot. Evil, Endure Elements, and Magic Weapon will improve your versatility for very little cost.

Personally I'd choose a Wis item over the Gauntlets of Ogre Power, and just prepare a lot of bull's strength spells for combat, but that one's a matter of play style.

What's an Extreme Shield? I don't remember seeing that in core or the MiC.

- Saph

Tyger
2007-09-05, 08:07 AM
Looks pretty good. You'll need access to a healing wand somehow (healing wands are good), so it might be worth getting that in place of the Belt of Healing. If not, just persuade the group to buy one with party funds.

Scrolls of cheap, useful spells like Prot. Evil, Endure Elements, and Magic Weapon will improve your versatility for very little cost.

Personally I'd choose a Wis item over the Gauntlets of Ogre Power, and just prepare a lot of bull's strength spells for combat, but that one's a matter of play style.

What's an Extreme Shield? I don't remember seeing that in core or the MiC.

- Saph

Well, on the healing note, we do have a cleric in the party, and a couple of my maneuvers and stances will also do some healing, so the belt is just the icing on the cake. At 6d8 per day, every day, and only 750 gp, it seems like a pretty good deal. I know I can buy a Wand of Cure Light Wounds for that, but that's 50 charges and then gone. I'm lousy at math, but I think the belt is a better investment.

As for the Wisdom items over the Gauntlets, the character is really focusing more on the warrior aspects rather than the clerical aspects. That may change later (though he's not taking any other cleric levels, so he'll max out at CL 9) but for now, thug with a few spells. I can certainly see where you are coming from there though Saph, and from an optimization point of view why it would be better, but I really don't want to show up the other characters (none of which are even remotely optimized) and as it is I am going to have to be pretty careful.

The Extreme Shield is in Races of Stone. Its got almost the benefit of a Tower Shield, and far fewer penalties. All round great shield.

Machete
2007-09-05, 09:15 AM
[QUOTE=Saph;3147478]

What's an Extreme Shield? I don't remember seeing that in core or the MiC.

- Saph[/QUOTE


See the equipment section of Racs of Stone. Exotic Shield.

Dausuul
2007-09-05, 10:26 AM
WRT was broken before because with the CustServ rulings on allies, as well as their ruling on the Crusader recovery mechanic, you could continuously give yourself turns (since the spent maneuver would refresh every turn, and since you are technically your own ally, you could use it on yourself).

Both rulings have been overturned, making it very good, but not broken.

It's still broken in my book, but that's mostly because you can use it on casters. If there are no casters in the game, it's tolerable, though I prefer to just ban anything that gives extra actions (extra attacks are okay, just not actual extra actions).

skywalker
2007-09-05, 12:10 PM
The Extreme Shield is in Races of Stone. Its got almost the benefit of a Tower Shield, and far fewer penalties. All round great shield.

Not to insult your intelligence, but you are aware that the extreme shield takes a feat to use properly, right?

If you do, that's fine, I just never understood spending a feat for 1pt of armor class.

Tyger
2007-09-05, 01:09 PM
Not to insult your intelligence, but you are aware that the extreme shield takes a feat to use properly, right?

If you do, that's fine, I just never understood spending a feat for 1pt of armor class.

Actually, there's an alternate feature that allows a fighter class to swap out their Tower Shield proficiency for it. WHich is what I have done. Yeah, I wouldn't have spent a feat on it either, unless I was a fighter with feats to burn that is.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-09-05, 01:26 PM
Wand of Fast Healing 1 for 750 GP (Twice as effective as Cure Light for the same cost) and First level scrolls instead of all those Master work weapons.

+2 Periapt of Wisdom instead of Gauntlets of Ogre Strength or the Rust Bag of Tricks (3.000 GP) and a Level 1 Pearl of Power usuable by any spellcaster in the party is nice.

In another level or two Heward's Handy Haversacks are nice for carrying things around.

yango
2007-09-05, 01:39 PM
It's still broken in my book, but that's mostly because you can use it on casters. If there are no casters in the game, it's tolerable, though I prefer to just ban anything that gives extra actions (extra attacks are okay, just not actual extra actions).

At the very least, its significantly less broken than it was before. Infinite turns in a round is more broken than a caster getting 2 turns per round.

Tyger
2007-09-05, 01:41 PM
OK, that's two recommendations to dump the belt and buy either a wand of CLW or FH... I must be missing something.

Can someone explain how the 750 GP is better spent on these items than on the belt? Belt does 3 charges, each of which can heal 2d8. That's three uses per day. So, an average session is 2 game days, that's 12d8 healing per session.

A wand of CLW will heal the same amount, at a cost of 6 charges per day... or roughly 8.5 game days.

Granted, the healing item will be an emergency use item, so it won't get used every single time, but it seems that the belt, which will effectively work forever, is a better buy at the end of the day.

What am I missing?

And why the Periapt rather than the Gauntlets? An additional spell per day (character has a 15 WIS, so +2 only nets one more level 3 spell, and a +1 to save DC which is already really really low; +1 on Will saves is nice, but its already pretty high), vs. +1 to hit and +1 to damage on every single sword stroke, all day long, plus additional carrying weight.

And yeah, I am thinking of ditching the masterwork weapons for some scrolls... have to balance that out a bit.

CASTLEMIKE
2007-09-05, 07:43 PM
I was curious why not Cleric -2, Crusader -3, RKV - 3 as that 4th level in RKV will give you level 3 divine spells or going WB-1, Cleric - 1, Crusader - 3, RKV -3 gets you more skillpoints, maneuvers, 12 hit points + con at level 1?

The wand of fast healing 1 is good for 11 hit points a charge and has 50 charges so it should be good for a few levels of advancement. I would have recommended an eternal wand or two of fast healing 1 but I thought we were supposed to stick to the DMG

You use the wand after you use up your daily belt healing and any spells set aside for healing when your party really needs healing.

Unless cleric spellcasting is just going to be a dip for this PC or doing party buffs and healing you should be bumping up your primary PC casting ability unless it is just a short term game or campaign.

The impression I had was most of the recommendations are to get rid of the gauntlets of ogre power.

Tyger
2007-09-05, 10:45 PM
I was curious why not Cleric -2, Crusader -3, RKV - 3 as that 4th level in RKV will give you level 3 divine spells or going WB-1, Cleric - 1, Crusader - 3, RKV -3 gets you more skillpoints, maneuvers, 12 hit points + con at level 1?

The wand of fast healing 1 is good for 11 hit points a charge and has 50 charges so it should be good for a few levels of advancement. I would have recommended an eternal wand or two of fast healing 1 but I thought we were supposed to stick to the DMG

You use the wand after you use up your daily belt healing and any spells set aside for healing when your party really needs healing.

Unless cleric spellcasting is just going to be a dip for this PC or doing party buffs and healing you should be bumping up your primary PC casting ability unless it is just a short term game or campaign.

The impression I had was most of the recommendations are to get rid of the gauntlets of ogre power.

Yeah, to be honest, the clerical casting is a side benefit of getting the Turn ability that the Cleric class was taken for. This character is a beefed up Crusader, with an assassin's twist, thus the Ruby Knight. The clerical casting is just a bonus. And with the lousy stats I rolled, I can't get my WIS up any higher without sacrificing my STR more than I am prepared to do.

And DMG is preferred, as noted in the OP, but not required, also as noted.

I think you are right though, on the MW weapons. No point getting a bunch of those. At our level, MW weapons are dropping from trees in the forest. No point spending gold on them when I can take that same 1200 GP and spend it on a boat load of scrolls.

skywalker
2007-09-05, 10:57 PM
Dude, Tyger, I'm SO glad you changed the title on this thread, because even though I've read it and replied to it, every time I scrolled past it, it jumped out at me. I don't want to pimp you out, man, I'm not that kinda guy...


Also, I say stick with the belt, avoid the wand of CLW, unless, of course, you're quite afraid of undead(my solo-monster beguiler has a wand of CLW for this reason, besides the fact that he's squishy.) If you need healing supplemental to your healbot cleric and your belt, fast healing is the way to go.

Tyger
2007-09-05, 11:17 PM
Dude, Tyger, I'm SO glad you changed the title on this thread, because even though I've read it and replied to it, every time I scrolled past it, it jumped out at me. I don't want to pimp you out, man, I'm not that kinda guy...

Yeah, I hadn't noticed that prior to my wife peering over my shoulder and asking exactly what services I was requesting on this alleged "gaming site"... Made for an interesting moment. :smalleek:



Also, I say stick with the belt, avoid the wand of CLW, unless, of course, you're quite afraid of undead(my solo-monster beguiler has a wand of CLW for this reason, besides the fact that he's squishy.) If you need healing supplemental to your healbot cleric and your belt, fast healing is the way to go.

Yeah, I may take the advice of folks and grab a Wand of Vigour (which is what I assume people have been calling a wand of Fast Healing) if I can't find enough scrolls / potions to spend my grubby little 1200 GP left over on.