lvl 4 Paladin VS lvl 1 wizard

[Houston810]

I think I might have to fight a lvl 4 pal in my next game but I'm just a lvl 1 wizard right now. All I can think of right now is to use magic missile and then sleep. Do you guys have any advice?

[th3g0dc0mp13x]

He will one shot you if he gets to you, run away followed by a ranged attack, once he's under 22 or after doing 20ish damage then put him to sleep.
Alternatively expeditious retreat, BA dash away then hit him with ray of frost, repeat til dead.

[sithlordnergal]

Is this a 1 vs. 1 fight? If it is, you're dead. There's nothing I can think of that you can really do. Even if you roll a high initiative, the paladin just needs to hit you once and smite, and you're likely dead unless they roll all 1's for their damage.

As for strategies...the only one I can think of is magic missile and roll really high on a sleep spell. That way you are guaranteed to hit. That said, you would have to make sure:

1) You are at a far enough range that they can't just run up and Smite you for a one shot kill.

2) that you do enough damage that they aren't able to mostly fix it with a Lay on Hands during their turn. Which, if they are at range, they can conceivably do since they'll be able to heal up to 20 hp with Lay on Hands.

3) that you roll a high enough Sleep spell to knock them at. If the DM uses the average HP thing to calculate the Paladin's HP, and they have a +0 con, you're looking to take down a 28 hp paladin that can heal up to 20 hp. That's a hard roll to make with just 5d8.

4) that the paladin is not an elf or half elf. This really is just how vicious of a DM your DM is.

While point 4 would be a bit mean of the DM to do to you, the rest either require luck or a situation that generally isn't going to happen. I can count on one hand the amount of times I fought something in a space where the enemy couldn't reach me within a turn. One happened while I was on an airship, the other happened while I was stuck at the top of a 150ft tall cliff
----

Now, if you have a party with you, hide behind your tank and cast sleep as soon as the Paladin has about 15 hp.

[strangebloke]

Is there no chance of stealth? Talking him down? Poisoning him? Running away?

Ok. First of all you're possibly screwed.

Secondly, your plan might work if you win initiative, but you're screwed if you lose initiative so don't worry about that.

Assuming that you're starting at around 20 foot distance.

1. Run. As far as you can without dashing
2. Cast magic missile
3. Let him take his turn. He probably can't close with you. Hopefully he has no ranged attacks.
4. Paladin has ~28+con*4 HP. After taking the magic missile he'll probably be missing about 10hp, so sleep might work.

[MrStabby]

Depending on the oath of the paladin... you could try reasoning with them.

[sithlordnergal]

Is there no chance of stealth? Talking him down? Poisoning him? Running away?

Ok. First of all you're possibly screwed.

Secondly, your plan might work if you win initiative, but you're screwed if you lose initiative so don't worry about that.

Assuming that you're starting at around 20 foot distance.

1. Run. As far as you can without dashing
2. Cast magic missile
3. Let him take his turn. He probably can't close with you. Hopefully he has no ranged attacks.
4. Paladin has ~28+con*4 HP. After taking the magic missile he'll probably be missing about 10hp, so sleep might work.

Don't forget, the Paladin can heal up to 20 hp on their turn. Even if you do max damage from Magic Missile, that's only 15 damage. They can heal it all on their turn and have 5 hp left. After that, they just need to dash, and unless the wizard decides to spend their time dashing the Paladin will catch up quickly.

And since this is a level 1 Wizard they only have 2 spell slots. So you can't use Magic Missile again unless you want to try and take the Paladin down with cantrips.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Beg for your life. Realistically all you can hope for is to roleplay an outcome that doesn't end up with your character dead.

If that's not an option I'd probably get a head start on figuring out what class you want to play next.

[Sigreid]

Running is your best option. If that isn't possible, you're pretty much left with doing your best to keep him at range and cantrip him down. Anything you have that can slow his movement while you continuously back away is your only real chance.

That or swapping his d20 with one loaded to roll only ones. :smallbiggrin:

[1Pirate]

I think I might have to fight a lvl 4 pal in my next game but I'm just a lvl 1 wizard right now. All I can think of right now is to use magic missile and then sleep. Do you guys have any advice?
Do you think or do you know? I’m asking because your best bet is getting out of that fight. What Oath are they? That could also matter a lot.

With an Oathbreaker, you have no real combat options, they’ll just use Hellish Rebuke to kill you whenever you deal damage.

An Ancients paladin with any kind of ranged attack will just pin you down with Ensnaring Strike and kill you on the next round—unless the damage from Ensnaring Strike kills you on the spot. Even if they don’t have a ranged weapon, they might just get close enough to use their channel divinity which does more or less the same thing as Ensnaring Strike.

Vengeance can also lock you down at range with their channel divinity, and Crown can stop you from leaving their movement range, though both are Wisdom saves so you might be able to shake it depending on their DC.

Any paladin could make you come closer with Command, but again, that’s a Wisdom save, so you might have a reasonable chance to get out of it.

TL;DR: Get out of the fight or be prepared to roll up a new character.

[th3g0dc0mp13x]

I just realized that even running you are SOL. you can't move far enough to actually disengage from him.

Assuming you start 20' away from each other. (it's worse if you're closer)
First turn, ray of frost, run 30' away.
Paladin Dashes and is now 10' away,
Ray of frost run 30' away,
Paladin dashes and is now right next to you.
You have two options A. cast sleep and hope to god you roll well enough. or disengage and run.
If you don't disengage and don't land sleep you're now within attack range and if you dash you take an OA and die anyway if he hits.

The only option is either luck or expeditious retreat.

First turn Expeditious retreat and action Dash
Now ray of frost and BA dash away til he's dead/sleepable.

[Unoriginal]

Sorry, but we need more context. As others have said, you're pretty much dead unless you can avoid the combat.

Maybe if you can hire a big bunch of goons...

[JackPhoenix]

Not that staying at range helps much. If the paladin has a ranged weapon (and he should), he may outrange anything level 1 wizard could do (unless the wizard is an elf and also uses longbow).

If not, screw magic damage. Expeditious Retreat to keep distance and kite the paladin with a longbow, if possible.

[Nidgit]

First Expeditious Retreat, then Ray of Frost until they're in reasonable Sleep range. Unless the Paladin has a bow, you'll probably be okay as long as you can land your hits. If you've got sufficient range between the two fo you, switch to Chill Touch to potentially fend off Lay On Hands.

[Vrakk]

Tasha's Laughter? It's poor odds but puts him on the ground if it works and let's you cantrip him a few times - then do it to him again when he gets close again.

1) Cast Tasha's - move away 30ft
2) Cantrip of choice (and pray he somehow fails - even with advantage) move away 30ft
3) Tasha's again if he is close but remember he was prone and that costs movement speed to get up or cantrip again if he is still down - keep moving away
4) More cantrips

Like I said, it's poor odds of success but it seems to me like your best chance of success.

[Zonugal]

Do you have time to prep beforehand?

Because using Minor Illusion to cover a pit or other trap/obstacle might be your best bet.

You're a Wizard, you need to approach this encounter like one.

[GoodmanDL]

Do you have to fight the Paladin? Why?

Barring fortunate die rolls and terrain, you can't match up with a L4 chacter. Your should try to role play your way out of a fight. What does the Paladin want, and what do you have to give up?

[Blood of Gaea]

Expeditious Retreat and run away, live to fight another day.

[Pyramid Pug]

I'll admit to being morbidly curious as to the why of the fight and how it will play out lol

[SirGraystone]

Yell that someone is trying to kill you and call the city guards

[Grear Bylls]

I think I might have to fight a lvl 4 pal in my next game but I'm just a lvl 1 wizard right now. All I can think of right now is to use magic missile and then sleep. Do you guys have any advice?

What I said this for? To get into a place by proving your strength? Fighting a baddy? Another player? What's this for?

[Sigreid]

Just to tack on to what is being said here, a level 1 character should be dead meat in a 1 on 1 with a level 4. Sorry, but your only real chance is that others help you.

[Seba]

@OP Why are you fighting? I need to know *grabs popcorn*

[Idkwhatmyscreen]

In order to win, we need to shut the pally down hard. Getting a surprise round is so critical to success since it will enable us to have multiple uninterrupted turns to lock down the encounter. You will need to sneak up behind them and do the following

1. Cast unseen Servant and Find Familiar as a ritual before the fight(the servant will only last an hour so you need to time this correctly)

2. Use your familiar to you make a "shove" attack with advantage (contest athletics checks) (familiar takes the help action)

3. Since you surprised them with your shove attack you can skip their first turn

4. You can now grapple them with advantage (contest athletics checks)

5. Have your unseen servant take their sword and move it 15 feet away as a bonus action on your turn

6. Have your familiar help you maintain the grapple on their turn (since that is the only thing that they can do since you have them on the ground prone and grappled

7. On your turn use any touch based cantrip to attack them

8. Repeat 6 and 7 until they are dead
(also you can have your unseen servant try to go after their holy symbol)
If you can give them disadvantage on their strength checks in anyway you will be in good shape. If you can get another party member to cast a spell or maybe have the rouge sneak poison into their food.

If they break the grapple they will still have spells unless you can take their holy symbol as well. At that point you should use the opportunity attack you have to try and shove them again, otherwise they will be able to move the 15 ft to the point your unseen servant has moved the items away to (if you can deposit them farther away, I would recommend doing so)

[Moxxmix]

Expeditious Retreat for the bonus Dash (and, importantly, lasts 10 minutes), and then spam Chill Touch. Expeditious Retreat will always keep you too far away for him to close (so you don't need to combine it with Ray of Frost, which has a sucky 60' range anyway), which means no attacks or opportunity attacks, and Chill Touch (120' range) prevents him from healing any damage you do. Do enough damage and you can finish with a Sleep.

That's if the paladin only tried to melee. At 4th level paladin has 3 1st level spells, as well, so you have to be prepared to deal with those.

1) If you use spells that require a saving throw, Bless is the counter, which adds 1d4 to the roll.
2) If you use spells that require an attack roll, Shield of Faith is the counter, with +2 to AC. (He should use this one against Chill Touch.)
3) Heroism gives probably 20-30 temp HP that you'll have to whittle down. (Not sure whether this bypasses the Chill Touch restriction on healing.) Shield of Faith or Bless seem more likely, since they're all concentration spells.
4) If he can get within 60' of you, Command can disable your retreat. You must always end your turn at least 95' away from him. Watch out for dead ends, difficult terrain, or other movement obstacles.
5) If he can get within 30' of you, Compelled Dual can prevent any retreat.
6) If he can get within 60' of you, he can throw daggers.
7) If he can get within 120' of you, he can throw javelins. (Abuse any piece of cover you can find.)

Worst case AC is full plate (18) + shield (2) + Shield of Faith (2) = 22 AC. Maybe just 20 AC with full chain, on the generous side. If you're using a standard array build, best case for your attack spell is +5 to hit. So you're only going to be hitting about 20%-30% of the time. Unfortunately, that's not enough to reliably shut down his healing. Can expect to need to do about 30 HP of damage before you have a chance to use Sleep, unless you're really lucky.

If you have time to prepare, get a Familiar owl that can give you advantage on your attack rolls. That will bump your hit chances up to the 35%-50% range.

Toll the Dead is probably the best alternate to Chill Touch (if you just can't hit), since it requires a Wis saving throw. Should have about a 40% success rate. Unfortunately, it has a 60' range, which means you have to play games with distances to move within 60' range to cast the spell, and then move at least 35' away before the paladin gets to move, in order to prevent him from getting within 60' of you. Avoid this if he has javelins to throw.

Minor Illusion may also help out, if you have a prepared battlefield, but depends very much on the location and the paladin.

The grapple approach sounds nifty, but you're guaranteed to be in range of Command, and in that scenario I'd probably use Heroism to easily outpace the damage you could do. Even if the paladin is at disadvantage and weaponless, he can still punch you for enough damage to knock you out in two or three hits. I can't see it being a winning strategy.

[Finback]

What's the context? If your DM is making you have a battle of honour, ask that your character be allowed to pick the battlefield, or similar. Then use your wizard's wits to your advantage. Pick an environment where it will be difficult for a paladin to get into combat with you easily - like in a mudpit. He'll get bogged and slowed, while you use spells that allow you to float or move around and shoot from range.

[Unoriginal]

In order to win, we need to shut the pally down hard. Getting a surprise round is so critical to success since it will enable us to have multiple uninterrupted turns to lock down the encounter. You will need to sneak up behind them and do the following

1. Cast unseen Servant and Find Familiar as a ritual before the fight(the servant will only last an hour so you need to time this correctly)

2. Use your familiar to you make a "shove" attack with advantage (contest athletics checks) (familiar takes the help action)

3. Since you surprised them with your shove attack you can skip their first turn

4. You can now grapple them with advantage (contest athletics checks)

5. Have your unseen servant take their sword and move it 15 feet away as a bonus action on your turn

6. Have your familiar help you maintain the grapple on their turn (since that is the only thing that they can do since you have them on the ground prone and grappled

7. On your turn use any touch based cantrip to attack them

8. Repeat 6 and 7 until they are dead
(also you can have your unseen servant try to go after their holy symbol)
If you can give them disadvantage on their strength checks in anyway you will be in good shape. If you can get another party member to cast a spell or maybe have the rouge sneak poison into their food.

If they break the grapple they will still have spells unless you can take their holy symbol as well. At that point you should use the opportunity attack you have to try and shove them again, otherwise they will be able to move the 15 ft to the point your unseen servant has moved the items away to (if you can deposit them farther away, I would recommend doing so)

That's literally suicide. A Paladin without their sword can still punch you to death, at this range.

[Spacehamster]

I think I might have to fight a lvl 4 pal in my next game but I'm just a lvl 1 wizard right now. All I can think of right now is to use magic missile and then sleep. Do you guys have any advice?

Be a level 1 v.human with mobile feat, each turn you get 20ft longer away from him with sprint.

[LudicSavant]

To win a fight like this you basically gotta play dirty. Most paladins have a weakness in that they're not great at range, and aren't particularly great at getting into range either (in fact, melee in general in 5e is a lot easier to kite than it used to be). Still, you basically die if they get to you and they've got some ~35 hp and healing to chew through while you can go down to a lucky crossbow shot. If you're open to cheese, you can milk your familiar for poisons (per the DMG) to get rather unfair damage for your first level basic ranged weapon attacks, and then have it Help you to get Advantage. Keep your distance using stuff like advantageous terrain, level 1 flight (such as from a race), or a mount. Move, shoot, and move back behind cover. Foil vision and otherwise use information warfare where possible. Spells are probably best used for control, defense, trickery, or in combination with environmental hazards rather than straight up magic missiles (as you'll run out of those before the Paladin goes down). It's an uphill fight but harder fights have been won by clever players (and vice versa, easier fights have been lost by dumb players with advantages as big as the Paladin's level gap).

[Unoriginal]

Somehow I imagine OP thought they'd be getting "of course a Wizard can beat that Paladin easy if they do X" answers.

[Idkwhatmyscreen]

That's literally suicide. A Paladin without their sword can still punch you to death, at this range.

Shh don't tell the paladin that

You would still be looking at 4 punches anyway since you can block two with the shield spell and the punch will do 4-5 damage depending on the strength of the pally If the wizard has 9 hit points he can take a few blows

[GlenSmash!]

Shh don't tell the paladin that

You would still be looking at 4 punches anyway since you can block two with the shield spell and the punch will do 4-5 damage depending on the strength of the pally If the wizard has 9 hit points he can take a few blows

Is that 4-5 damage assuming the Paladin doesn't smite? A single first level slot smite will do 9 average damage.

[Xihirli]

You can smite an unarmed strike.

[djreynolds]

Expeditious retreat is nice spell, like cunning action, your bonus action can be used to dash.

What are your spells?

[Citan]

I think I might have to fight a lvl 4 pal in my next game but I'm just a lvl 1 wizard right now. All I can think of right now is to use magic missile and then sleep. Do you guys have any advice?
Hi!

Well, I'd say using Expeditious Retreat and maybe Minor Illusion to create diversion/cover may be your only option to have a high chance of surviving, by running away.

First round: bonus action Expeditious Retreat, cast Minor Illusion to create cover, duck.
Subsequent rounds: Dash + Dash or Dash + new Minor Illusion.
You should be able to outrun him easily.

Classic Paladins rely on STR, so his best chance to hit you with a ranged attack would be Javelin, which has 30/120 feet range.
If you duck behind cover between turns, he will attack with -5 and disadvantage. Little chance to hit you.

His only real chance then to get you would be to Dash+move to close the gap in one turn then hope you won't Disengage before moving away and hit you.

If you can't outrun him fast, and even Expeditious Retreat would not be enough to put you out of reach as illustrated above, your best chance is still using Expeditious Retreat to at least force him to use thrown attacks instead of melee so at least Divine Smite is not an option, while using whatever cantrip you have (obviously Frostbite is the greatest here thanks to disadvantage on attack if you're still in short range, if you can manage the "auto-disadvantage range" for Javelin then Ray of Frost is the next best thing).

If you both start in close range and you lose Initiative, pray that your Shield will spare you for that round, then either try to rely on kite and run tactic, or risk everything on a Cause Fear (but Paladin is proficient), Grease (but will get you only one spare turn), Color Spray (same) or a Sleep (you'd need a near-max roll for a decent hope of it working).

In short, if you are trapped in an enclosed area, chances are survival are damn slim.

OR, find a way to sense him before he sense you (so before you "engage in fighting") and bet everything on a successful Charm Person + Persuasion check to let you live at least, maybe even not attack you (extremely dependent on context and DM, so this is the last of the last options XD).

[JackPhoenix]

Well, I'd say using Expeditious Retreat and maybe Minor Illusion to create diversion/cover may be your only option to have a high chance of surviving, by running away.

First round: bonus action Expeditious Retreat, cast Minor Illusion to create cover, duck.
Subsequent rounds: Dash + Dash or Dash + new Minor Illusion.
You should be able to outrun him easily.

Minor Illusion can't create cover. Ever. It's not solid. At best, you can use it to break foe's line of sight and gain heavy obscurment.

[Citan]

Minor Illusion can't create cover. Ever. It's not solid. At best, you can use it to break foe's line of sight and gain heavy obscurment.
From PHB about cover...

"A target with half cover has a +2 bonus to AC and Dexterity saving throws. A target has half cover if an obstacle blocks at least half of its body. The obstacle might be a low wall, a large piece of furniture, a narrow tree trunk, or a creature, whether that creature is an enemy or a friend.

A target with three-quarters cover has a +5 bonus to AC and Dexterity saving throws. A target has three-quarters cover if about three-quarters of it is covered by an obstacle. The obstacle might be a portcullis, an arrow slit, or a thick tree trunk.

A target with total cover can't be targeted directly by an attack or a spell, although some spells can reach such a target by including it in an area of effect. A target has total cover if it is completely concealed by an obstacle."


Minor Illusion, image part...
"If you create an image of an object it must be no larger than a 5-foot cube. The image can't create any sensory effect. Physical interaction with the image reveals it to be an illusion, because things can pass through it."
The ONLY limitation is about the size. No prescription on appearance, form, or whatever else besides that. So you're free to make it appear like a dirt wall, a conjured big metal shield with a slit or whatnot (preferably with a slit though, you do want to see the target to avoid backfire from stupid black&white vision rules).

Average human height: 5.5 feet. When crouched, probably somewhere around 3.5 feet.

So...
When standing tall but behind the illusion, you probably get at the very least 3/4 cover.


That the image is actually not solid is not important in the slightest, as long as it presents itself as something solid.

The mechanic of cover translates the fact that someone has a much, much smaller effective target available, which in turn adds pressure on aim accuracy.

And, if you crouch behind, then you get total cover, so you're unseen so attacker rolls at disadvantage, which is usually considered equivalent to somewhere between -3 and -5 malus depending on the initial gap to fill.

Sure, if DM decides that a miss translates as the arrow going right through the illusion instead of high above/aside you, and enemy is not too far, he will see a physical interaction that will reveal the trick.
A rigorous/nasty/adaptative DM may also decide that a near-miss from the attacker would reflect the fact that the arrow "missed" you but went through the illusion with you in the trajectory, so you actually suffered some damage.
Depends on many factors.
Worst case, you got one round.
Best case, you got several.

Of course, you also can't see the target if you didn't manage to make a very small and slight slit, so disadvantage would get canceled.
Would that make the whole thing a moot point? I'd say not necessarily: unless your enemy has a way of knowing it's probably an illusion (like you're famous for it or it has friends with detect magic or whatever) why would he try to attack you at ranged with such a malus? He will probably rather dash to go around or pick another target.

You could even try a double trick if you know your enemy is used to fighting spellcasters, by mimicking the apparition of a wall as if it was created by a Mold Earth, so the enemy persuades itself it's actually solid. ^^. THIS requires DM leeway though, because while Mold Earth hints at the fact your effect is "transitional" (excavating means you're progressively going from state A to state B, even if in a fast fashion) the writing of Minor Illusion would rather hint at an instant, "fixed" apparition. So YMMV.

So, I understand your point in that Minor Illusion does not create a lasting cover, because of that limitation, compared to a Mold Earth for example, making it impractical for the particular OP's case.

BUT, technically, per game rules, as long as you create it right, when you cast it, you create a cover. It's up to you and DM behind to see how that translates in-game.

[JNAProductions]

Don't think an Unseen Servant can Shove.

Looking at the spell... I guess it technically can. But it's rocking a whopping -4 to Athletics, whereas our friendly Paladin probably has +7. So, even with Advantage, you have a...

15.45% chance of succeeding.

Great odds, those are.

[JackPhoenix]

Snip

It doesn't matter how the illusion looks like. It's not physical object, it can't actualy block the attack. The attacker gets disadvantage because he can't see you (at least until he shoots at the illusion for the first time and reveals it that way), but you don't get any AC bonus.

If you think your bolding of concealed means anything, I suggest you read the whole entry. "A target has half cover if an obstacle blocks at least half of its body." See? I can do that too. Illusion doesn't blocks anything, because there's nothing there. Notice how all examples are physical obstacles instead of just lowered visibility? That's because cover requires actual physical obstruction to exist (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/03/18/does-invisibility-count-as-total-cover/).


Don't think an Unseen Servant can Shove.

Looking at the spell... I guess it technically can. But it's rocking a whopping -4 to Athletics, whereas our friendly Paladin probably has +7. So, even with Advantage, you have a...

15.45% chance of succeeding.

Great odds, those are.

Shove is an attack. US can't attack.

[Citan]

It doesn't matter how the illusion looks like. It's not physical object, it can't actualy block the attack. The attacker gets disadvantage because he can't see you (at least until he shoots at the illusion for the first time and reveals it that way), but you don't get any AC bonus.

If you think your bolding of concealed means anything, I suggest you read the whole entry. "A target has half cover if an obstacle blocks at least half of its body." See? I can do that too. Illusion doesn't blocks anything, because there's nothing there. Notice how all examples are physical obstacles instead of just lowered visibility? That's because cover requires actual physical obstruction to exist (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2017/03/18/does-invisibility-count-as-total-cover/).

Ah, I was unaware of the Sage Advice.

I also understand your explanation, seems logical enough and was my first understanding long time ago.
But then why, why did I see so often on these forums the "you can create cover with Minor Illusions" since I first came around here? I thought I had been missing something and this was how to rule it since like months ago. XD

[JNAProductions]

Shove is an attack. US can't attack.

Yeah, I missed that line in Unseen Servant. Because that was my initial reaction too. "Surely," I thought, "The Unseen Servant can't attack!"

But I read it and just had my eyes glaze over at the "Can't attack" line, and so thought it could.

[sophontteks]

Ah, I was unaware of the Sage Advice.

I also understand your explanation, seems logical enough and was my first understanding long time ago.
But then why, why did I see so often on these forums the "you can create cover with Minor Illusions" since I first came around here? I thought I had been missing something and this was how to rule it since like months ago. XD
You can create cover. You just can't use it to block ranged attacks as you described. Like, I can create cover to hide behind or block LOS. A halfling could reasonably hide behind a minor illusion.

Since a ranged attack not only goes through an illusion, but also effectively dispells the illusion, you don't want it to get shot at. But if your totally concealed by it, and they assume its real, they won't be shooting at you.

[JackPhoenix]

Yeah, I missed that line in Unseen Servant. Because that was my initial reaction too. "Surely," I thought, "The Unseen Servant can't attack!"

But I read it and just had my eyes glaze over at the "Can't attack" line, and so thought it could.

To be fair, I had to re-read the spell 3 times before I noticed the line, even though I was sure it's there. But I've been at work for over 12 hours...


You can create cover. You just can't use it to block ranged attacks as you described. Like, I can create cover to hide behind or block LOS. A halfling could reasonably hide behind a minor illusion.

Since a ranged attack not only goes through an illusion, but also effectively dispells the illusion, you don't want it to get shot at. But if your totally concealed by it, and they assume its real, they won't be shooting at you.

Cover is specific game term, with specific mechanical meaning. You can hide behind illusions, but they do not provide cover, only physical obstacles do. They can provide obscurement, however. That's what allows you to hide or block LoS: Wall of Force or glass window provide cover, but do not create obscurement.

[sophontteks]

To be fair, I had to re-read the spell 3 times before I noticed the line, even though I was sure it's there. But I've been at work for over 12 hours...



Cover is specific game term, with specific mechanical meaning. You can hide behind illusions, but they do not provide cover, only physical obstacles do. They can provide obscurement, however. That's what allows you to hide or block LoS: Wall of Force or glass window provide cover, but do not create obscurement.
It is but that is not all the word is. I can say I am using my illusion for cover and I'm not wrong. It just doesn't meet the game term for cover. Do you get what I mean?

People say they are using illusions for cover but they aren''t refering to the game term for cover in regards to ranged combat.

[ProsecutorGodot]

You can create cover. You just can't use it to block ranged attacks as you described. Like, I can create cover to hide behind or block LOS. A halfling could reasonably hide behind a minor illusion.

Since a ranged attack not only goes through an illusion, but also effectively dispells the illusion, you don't want it to get shot at. But if your totally concealed by it, and they assume its real, they won't be shooting at you.
Just my own personal nitpick, ignoring the can and can't of Minor Illusion working this way:

I can't think of a feasible way for the "minor illusion as cover" strategy to do anything more than delay the inevitable. Wizard runs away, Paladin gives chase and either barrels right through it knowing full well it's an illusion or attempts to vault over the "wall" quickly realizing it's not real and continuing through it. If the wizard is simply hiding behind the illusion, that's not good because now the paladin is right there, if he put the illusion there in an effort to delay the paladin it's a pretty poor use of his action considering how simple it would be to overcome.

The outrunning part of the strategy might work but the minor illusion part doesn't seem to give any meaningful benefit

[Idkwhatmyscreen]

You can smite an unarmed strike.

Crap, why would they remove it from the weapon table if it is technically a weapon when used in attack

New plan, pour fire ants into his armor.

[Demonslayer666]

Is it to the death?

This is kinda important to know, because it it isn't, just try your best and see what happens.

If it is in fact to the death, try and get out of it or hire a judicial champion.

[Speely]

Paladin did enough damage to knock the original poster unconcious irl, I guess. :P

[Boverk]

Is it to the death?

This is kinda important to know, because it it isn't, just try your best and see what happens.

If it is in fact to the death, try and get out of it or hire a judicial champion.

I am also very curious how this plays out

[AHF]

Do you have time to prep beforehand?

Because using Minor Illusion to cover a pit or other trap/obstacle might be your best bet.

You're a Wizard, you need to approach this encounter like one.

I like this best. Get a lethal pit trap and then conceal it with a minor illusion (like cutting a hole in the middle of a bridge and then creating the illusion that the bridge has no hole). Bait him to run into the trap (perhaps readying an action to cast sleep immediately after he hits the bottom of the pit or something) and then cast sleep on him if he survives.

[Citan]

It is but that is not all the word is. I can say I am using my illusion for cover and I'm not wrong. It just doesn't meet the game term for cover. Do you get what I mean?

People say they are using illusions for cover but they aren''t refering to the game term for cover in regards to ranged combat.
Yeah, that's it. I think I've been mixing cover in general meaning and cover as in specific game mechanic because people use it in one way, others the other. ^^

[GlenSmash!]

I suppose the wizard could find a way to make engaging in the Duel contrary to the Paladin's Oath, but you might just end up fighting an Oathbreaker that way.

[Zonugal]

While we await the original poster, I offer up this guy as a build for us to use in our theoretical space.

He's designed to be an actual character that would make sense to field at a table.

Zonu the Magnificent

https://image.ibb.co/fx1yQd/Elven_Pirate.jpg

Zonu the Magnificient
High Elf Wizard 1 with the Sailor background
Medium humanoid (elf), Chaotic Neutral
Armor class 13 (unarmored)/16 (mage armor)
Hit points 7 (1d6+1)
Speed 30 ft.
---
Str 10, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 8
---
Saving Throws Intelligence +5 and Wisdom +3
Skills Athletics +2, History +5, Insight +5, Navigator’s Tools +2, Perception +3, Stealth +5, and Vehicles (Water) +2
Feats --
Senses passive Perception 13; darkvision 60 ft.
Languages Common, Dwarven, and Elven
Challenge 1
---
Special Abilities
Racial Abilities: Cantrip (Gust), Darkvision (60 ft.), Elf Weapon Training, Fey Ancestry, Keen Senses, and Trance
Background Abilities: Ship’s Passage
Class Abilities: Spellcasting (Wizard), Arcane Recovery (1st-level/day), and Ritual Casting (Wizard)
---
Actions
Dagger. Melee weapon attack: +5 to hit, reach 5 ft., range 20 ft./60 ft., one target. Hit: 5 (1d4+3) slashing damage; finesse, light
Shortbow. Ranged weapon attack: +5 to hit, range 80 ft./320 ft., one target. Hit: 6 (1d6+3) piercing damage; ammunition (range 80/320), two-handed
---
Wizard Spells -- Zonu’s spellcasting ability is Intelligence-based (spell save DC 13)
Cantrips Known (at will) -- Gust, Minor Illusion, Mold Earth, and Prestidigitation
1st-level Spells Prepared (2/long rest) -- Burning Hands, Mage Armor, Shield, and Tasha’s Hideous Laughter
--
Equipment: An arcane focus (crystal), a belaying pin, a belt pouch (4 gp), a set of common clothes, cook’s utensils, a dagger, an explorer’s pack, manacles, a shortbow with twenty arrows quivered, Silk rope (50 ft.), a spellbook, a set of traveler’s clothes, and a trinket (a wineskin that refills when interred with a dead person for a night).
--
Spellbook
1st-level Spells: Burning Hands, Find Familiar, Mage Armor, Shield, Tasha’s Hideous Laughter, & Unseen Servant

[JNAProductions]

While we await the original poster, I offer up this guy as a build for us to use in our theoretical space.

He's designed to be an actual character that would make sense to field at a table.

Zonu the Magnificent

http://resizeimage.net/viewimg/7wTyGoWdzZqWA3k7/ovlK4/elven-pirate.jpg

Zonu the Magnificient
High Elf Wizard 1 with the Sailor background
Medium humanoid (elf), Chaotic Neutral
Armor class 13 (unarmored)/16 (mage armor)
Hit points 7 (1d6+1)
Speed 30 ft.
---
Str 10, Dex 16, Con 13, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 8
---
Saving Throws Intelligence +5 and Wisdom +3
Skills Athletics +2, History +5, Insight +5, Navigator’s Tools +2, Perception +3, Stealth +5, and Vehicles (Water) +2
Feats --
Senses passive Perception 13; darkvision 60 ft.
Languages Common, Dwarven, and Elven
Challenge 1
---
Special Abilities
Racial Abilities: Cantrip (Gust), Darkvision (60 ft.), Elf Weapon Training, Fey Ancestry, Keen Senses, and Trance
Background Abilities: Ship’s Passage
Class Abilities: Spellcasting (Wizard), Arcane Recovery (1st-level/day), and Ritual Casting (Wizard)
---
Actions
Dagger. Melee weapon attack: +5 to hit, reach 5 ft., range 20 ft./60 ft., one target. Hit: 5 (1d4+3) slashing damage; finesse, light
Shortbow. Ranged weapon attack: +5 to hit, range 80 ft./320 ft., one target. Hit: 6 (1d6+3) piercing damage; ammunition (range 80/320), two-handed
---
Wizard Spells -- Zonu’s spellcasting ability is Intelligence-based (spell save DC 13)
Cantrips Known (at will) -- Gust, Minor Illusion, Mold Earth, and Prestidigitation
1st-level Spells Prepared (2/long rest) -- Burning Hands, Mage Armor, Shield, and Tasha’s Hideous Laughter
--
Equipment: An arcane focus (crystal), a belaying pin, a belt pouch (4 gp), a set of common clothes, cook’s utensils, a dagger, an explorer’s pack, manacles, a shortbow with twenty arrows quivered, Silk rope (50 ft.), a spellbook, a set of traveler’s clothes, and a trinket (a wineskin that refills when interred with a dead person for a night).
--
Spellbook
1st-level Spells: Burning Hands, Find Familiar, Mage Armor, Shield, Tasha’s Hideous Laughter, & Unseen Servant

Minor note: A level 1 PC is NOT CR 1.

[Mellack]

I like this best. Get a lethal pit trap and then conceal it with a minor illusion (like cutting a hole in the middle of a bridge and then creating the illusion that the bridge has no hole). Bait him to run into the trap (perhaps readying an action to cast sleep immediately after he hits the bottom of the pit or something) and then cast sleep on him if he survives.

Considering minor illusion has only a minute duration, that would be tricky to pull off.

[Idkwhatmyscreen]

If you got the cook utensils, poison that pally with a fantastic meal. You could also try to disguise the meal so that it contains ingredients that the pally can't eat as a part of their religious order (like human blood or kobold meat)

[Zonugal]

If you got the cook utensils, poison that pally with a fantastic meal. You could also try to disguise the meal so that it contains ingredients that the pally can't eat as a part of their religious order (like human blood or kobold meat)

And Zonu has Prestigidation, so he can mask the taste of any poison or ill-elements!

[Sigreid]

There's always the classic "how would you beat him?" "With a stick, while he slept".

[DrowPiratRobrts]

Could you give us your spell list for starters?

[coyote_sly]

The poison suggestions aren't very practical. It likely won't do enough damage to outpace Heroism, and if it IS actually threatening he can just remove it with Lay On Hands.

There's basically zero room for error, here - if you get hit, you get smited. If you get smited, you almost certainly go unconscious as it'll likely be 3d8. With good rolls there's a chance you just die outright.

I'm also curious about the setup here.

[JackPhoenix]

The OP was new account, and wasn't seen after the first post. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for more information...

[AHF]

Considering minor illusion has only a minute duration, that would be tricky to pull off.

You have to use a bit of creativity for any scenario here to work but you could do any number of things like put a blanket or other "rough concealment" over the hole, get a significant lead over the paladin with expeditious retreat and then use the minor illusion cantrip to change "moderately concealed trap" into "perfectly concealed trap" before the paladin catches up. This is easier to do if you get his attention in the first place by firing from range with a bow or something (allowing the wizard to start from a sufficient range so as to stay out of the paladin's attack range).

[Houston810]

So the fight was over me trying to save a vampire child (surgical kill then revivify) vs him straight up killing them.

Thankfully I avoided having to fight him because he ran down into the church basment and the vampire almost slaughtered the party.

But that character and I will likely have a head to head in the future.

So I'm a lvl 2 fighter lvl 1 wizard now.
Stats are 10 13 12 13 16 19
(It's divine soul the rest of the way)
Choose or use whatever spells you want.

[JackPhoenix]

So the fight was over me trying to save a vampire child (surgical kill then revivify) vs him straight up killing them.

Thankfully I avoided having to fight him because he ran down into the church basment and the vampire almost slaughtered the party..

Well... he was right. Only way to return a vampire back to life is True Resurrection. Revivify will revive him as vampire.

[ProsecutorGodot]

So the fight was over me trying to save a vampire child (surgical kill then revivify) vs him straight up killing them.

Thankfully I avoided having to fight him because he ran down into the church basment and the vampire almost slaughtered the party.

But that character and I will likely have a head to head in the future.

So I'm a lvl 2 fighter lvl 1 wizard now.
Stats are 10 13 12 13 16 19
(It's divine soul the rest of the way)
Choose or use whatever spells you want.

On an unrelated note: I'm not sure I understand the point of starting wizard if your end goal is to be a sorcerer.

On topic: Vampirism is a VERY complicated curse, when the corpse rises as an undead vampire it is an undead vampire now. Revivify doesn't fix that, ignoring the curse portion, a vampire spawn has been dead for more than a minute even if you "killed" him a minute ago. Wish and True Resurrection are the only methods you would have that can restore an undead body to it's formerly not undead (un-undead?) condition.

If the setting you're playing in is actually Curse of Strahd, which I'm assuming it is by your description of the encounter,
Resurrecting Doru in this manner would either not work or leave him as a vampire spawn and also give him indefinite madness, resurrecting him with True Resurrection would leave him with indefinite madness but cure his vampirism. Wish can do it and while this method wouldn't cause him to die and be revived, avoiding the madness, you would run the risk of never being able to cast Wish again.

As good a deed as it would be to try and fix him in the best way possible, the amount of 9th level spells required are well beyond what you would realistically ever have in Barovia.

I'm with the Paladin on this one, a Wizards "naive" misunderstanding of how divine magic works is detrimental to the cause. Since you're starting to raise your CHA I'd recommend having a conversation with the Paladin so that he can explain this to your wizard in world.

[Houston810]

Well... he was right. Only way to return a vampire back to life is True Resurrection. Revivify will revive him as vampire.

Why? Monster Manual says it would work for PCs why not NPCs?

[the secret fire]

It is but that is not all the word is. I can say I am using my illusion for cover and I'm not wrong. It just doesn't meet the game term for cover. Do you get what I mean?

People say they are using illusions for cover but they aren''t refering to the game term for cover in regards to ranged combat.

No, you are also misusing the real-world terminology. Speaking as someone who has actually been trained for and engaged in ranged combat: cover is the term for putting yourself behind a solid object which can block projectiles; concealment is the term for putting yourself where the enemy can't see you.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Why? Monster Manual says it would work for PCs why not NPCs?

It doesn't specify the type of resurrection, which is important.

The time span in which Revivify can work has already passed as it takes at least one night for the dead body to rise as a vampire (it however doesn't say that you can't use it on undead, so with a certain interpretation of the spells rules, casting revivify on a vampire spawn could restore a vampire spawn to unlife), Raise Dead specifically cannot restore undead to life, Resurrection specifically states that it doesn't remove magical curses which includes Vampirism as it is a magical curse.

Only True Resurrection fits the criteria:
-Time Limit of 200 years is very generous, your friend very likely did die within that time. The NPC in question certainly did as his father is around to complain about it.
-It can restore undead to life, even if the Vampire is turned to ash in sunlight you can restore them as it creates a new body.
-It can cure Vampirism since it cures magical curses, so if the body isn't turned to ash it can instead just make their existing body whole in body and soul.

[JackPhoenix]

Why? Monster Manual says it would work for PCs why not NPCs?

No, it does not. Or rather, it does say that you can get cured of vampirism by two means: Wish, or being killed and returned to life. The first doesn't need explanaition. The second is little harder: Raise Dead specifically can't bring undead back to life, Resurrection doesn't work on undead and neither does Reincarnate. Revivify lacks limit on creature type, but it won't change it: use it on undead, and you'll get back undead. Only True Resurrection can return undead creature back to life.

There's also time limit how long can the creature be dead, as ProsecutorGodot noted.

Edit: Shadowmonk'd.

[Houston810]

Only True Resurrection fits the criteria:
-Time Limit of 200 years is very generous, your friend very likely did die within that time. The NPC in question certainly did as his father is around to complain about it.
-It can restore undead to life, even if the Vampire is turned to ash in sunlight you can restore them as it creates a new body.
-It can cure Vampirism since it cures magical curses, so if the body isn't turned to ash it can instead just make their existing body whole in body and soul.

I'm going to argue that vampirism is not a magical disease or a curse per the rules and as it is can not be cured by the spells that cure these.

[Houston810]

No, it does not. Or rather, it does say that you can get cured of vampirism by two means: Wish, or being killed and returned to life. The first doesn't need explanaition. The second is little harder: Raise Dead specifically can't bring undead back to life, Resurrection doesn't work on undead and neither does Reincarnate. Revivify lacks limit on creature type, but it won't change it: use it on undead, and you'll get back undead. Only True Resurrection can return undead creature back to life.

There's also time limit how long can the creature be dead, as ProsecutorGodot noted.

Edit: Shadowmonk'd.

Nothing said here is an actual restriction on what I wanted to do if you consider a dead vampire to be dead.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I'm going to argue that vampirism is not a magical disease or a curse per the rules and as it is can not be cured by the spells that cure these.

I guess that's a fair argument to make but that doesn't help in this case, as mentioned above by JackPhoenix the only spell that can bring back the dead that can be used on Undead creatures to cure them of their undead nature is True Resurrection.I would also argue that, as with natural born lycanthropes, the fact that the MM lists the only cures being Wish and a resurrection that it does constitute a magical curse, a particularly powerful one at that.


Nothing said here is an actual restriction on what I wanted to do if you consider a dead vampire to be dead.
I know it seems a bit counterintuitive, but an undead creature that you've killed is still considered undead.

[JackPhoenix]

Nothing said here is an actual restriction on what I wanted to do if you consider a dead vampire to be dead.

Again, only TR can specifically bring undead creatures back to life, Raise Dead and Resurrection specifically can't, and Reincarnate works on *humanoid* corpses, not *undead* corpses. And Revivify will bring dead vampire back as vampire. Both RAW and RAI. (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/04/11/can-i-revify-a-killed-zombie/)

[Houston810]

I guess that's a fair argument to make but that doesn't help in this case, as mentioned above by JackPhoenix the only spell that can bring back the dead that can be used on Undead creatures to cure them of their undead nature is True Resurrection.

I'm not trying to remove an undead status from a creature, I consider it removed when they are killed and made dead.


I would also argue that, as with natural born lycanthropes, the fact that the MM lists the only cures being Wish and a resurrection that it does constitute a magical curse, a particularly powerful one at that.
Natural born lycanthopy is not a magical curse... its a feature of that creatures birth. And it can't be cured by any form of resurrection


I know it seems a bit counter intuitive, but an undead creature that you've killed is still considered undead.
Show me this in any official capacity and this will be the nail in my vampiric coffin *bada cha*

[Houston810]

Again, only TR can specifically bring undead creatures back to life, Raise Dead and Resurrection specifically can't, and Reincarnate works on *humanoid* corpses, not *undead* corpses. And Revivify will bring dead vampire back as vampire.

If your understanding of status conditions are correct revivfy won't bring back a dead vampire at all as anything.

Also as a practitioner of formal logic I have no respect for Crawford's opinion on anything, though I will say if you consider him to be the arbiter of RAI then by RAI it would not work.

[Unoriginal]

Also as a practitioner of formal logic I have no respect for Crawford's opinion on anything, though I will say if you consider him to be the arbiter of RAI then by RAI it would not work.

As a "practitioner of formal logic", you should have respect for Crawford's right to explain the rules in the Sage's Advice, as it is his official capacity.

[Houston810]

As a "practitioner of formal logic", you should have respect for Crawford's right to explain the rules in the Sage's Advice, as it is his official capacity.

No I shouldn't... his being posted to do it doesn't obligate me to anything... he's bad at words and logic... sorry if you like the guy. I have nothing against him on a personal level.

[Unoriginal]

No I shouldn't... his being posted to do it doesn't obligate me to anything... he's bad at words and logic... sorry if you like the guy. I have nothing against him on a personal level.

He literally wrote the rules, so yes you're obligated to follow them if you want to follow RAW.

If you think he's bad at words and logic, then I suggest you find a different game to play, because it means you think 5e is badly worded and illogical.

I can't imagine you will find anything fun or enjoyable in it.


I consider it removed when they are killed and made dead.


Maybe you consider that, but you are wrong.



Show me this in any official capacity and this will be the nail in my vampiric coffin *bada cha*

Any official capacity, you say? Alright, here's two:

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/05/07/if-a-pc-becomes-undead-can-resurrection-work-if-the-undead-pc-is-killed/ (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/05/07/if-a-pc-becomes-undead-can-resurrection-work-if-the-undead-pc-is-killed/)

https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/04/26/a-pc-infected-by-vampirism-can-be-killed-and-raise-dead/
(https://www.sageadvice.eu/2016/04/26/a-pc-infected-by-vampirism-can-be-killed-and-raise-dead/)

Yes, Sage Advice is official.

[ProsecutorGodot]

No I shouldn't... his being posted to do it doesn't obligate me to anything... he's bad at words and logic... sorry if you like the guy. I have nothing against him on a personal level.
Page Zero of PHB:

D&D Lead Designers: Mike Mearls, Jeremy Crawford
Players Handbook Lead: Jeremy Crawford

Page Zero of DMG:
Dungeon Master's Guide Leads: Jeremy Crawford, Christopher Perkins, James Wyatt

The man is literally the one who made the rules this edition. You're free to ignore the rules when you're running your own game, but by RAW and RAI, a dead undead is still an undead. There wouldn't be any reason for the distinction on spells that bring back the dead otherwise.

Being risen as an undead is literally an offense against goodness and damns the soul and body that has become undead. Only high level magics, reality bending or divine intervention can truly restore someone to life after that. It's hardcore, there's a reason literal Gods in the games multiverse take the creation of undead so seriously.

[Houston810]

He literally wrote the rules, so yes you're obligated to follow them if you want to follow RAW.

If you think Crawford penned D&D 5e alone or even in the majority you're just wrong. Also I feel like you have a loose grasp on what an obligation is...


If you think he's bad at words and logic, then I suggest you find a different game to play, because it means you think 5e is badly worded and illogical.
I appreciate your suggestion, I'm gona go ahead and ignore it ... I actually don't find the published works that badly worded or illogical at all.


I can't imagine you will find anything fun or enjoyable in it.
Well I've found it enjoyable for 20 years or soo... Sooo I think you're just lacking imagination...




Maybe you consider that, but you are wrong.

Or I'm not. Especially considering the main tenets of 5e.



Yes, Sage Advice is official.

-It's not. It's why some answers are tagged as official and some aren't.

Oh P.S. I will not respond to you again.

[ProsecutorGodot]

-It's not. It's why some answers are tagged as official and some aren't.
All of Jeremy Crawford's tweets are official rulings, it says as much in the Sage Advice Compendium.

If you're referring to Zoltar's Sage Advice website, that website is a third party resource that compiles the list of rulings that have been made. If one of JC's tweets is not labeled as an "official ruling" there it doesn't mean that what JC said wasn't an official ruling, it means Zoltar forgot to label it as such.

The compendium officially lists Jeremy Crawford's tweets as rulings.

It also says that the Dungeon Master is free to ignore those rulings. If you make a compelling argument to your DM about being able to resurrect an undead in this manner and they agree, nothing JC or we say matters. It is not for you to decide as the end all be all rule however, and ignoring JC doesn't make the ruling unofficial.

[Houston810]

The man is literally the one who made the rules this edition.
I promise you that is not true despite what you think a lead designer does, showing me he's the lead designer isn't knew info to me. I refuse to argue this point further than to tell you my opinion and ensure you that your's is poorly based.


You're free to ignore the rules when you're running your own game but by RAW and RAI, a dead undead is still an undead.
Oh I know, its one of the main tenets of 5e. We already have. Also may I take this moment to compliment your style of candor and forum etiquette. As well as apologize if you have found minr harsh.


There wouldn't be any reason for the distinction on spells that bring back the dead otherwise.
I can think of one for literally every instance but this is getting exhausting.


Being risen as an undead is literally an offense against goodness and damns the soul and body that has become undead. Only high level magics, reality bending or divine intervention can truly restore someone to life after that. It's hardcore, there's a reason literal Gods in the games multiverse take the creation of undead so seriously.
What do you mean it damns the soul? I'm actually very curious about this. Do vampires not have souls in 5e?

[Houston810]

All of Jeremy Crawford's tweets are official rulings, it says as much in the Sage Advice Compendium.

If that's true, its literally the most depressing thing I've heard in a long time.

Ugg I just read it. His dumb face is the only exception of all humans on the earth... What do you do when he contradicts himself or published work?

[Blood of Gaea]

If that's true, its literally the most depressing thing I've heard in a long time.

Ugg I just read it. His dumb face is the only exception of all humans on the earth... What do you do when he contradicts himself or published work?
Do what I do, ignore his rulings and make your own.

[LudicSavant]

What do you mean it damns the soul? I'm actually very curious about this. Do vampires not have souls in 5e?

His posts about Jeremy Crawford's rulings being official (yet ignorable at your DM's option) are correct. His posts about vampire souls in D&D 5e in general are not, at least if he's not discussing a specific setting.

[Greywander]

Ultimately, this is something you should discuss with your DM, as only they can tell you how undeath and resurrection magic work in their game.

That said, Revivify would almost certainly not work for one very important reason: the time limit. Revivify has to be cast within one minute of the creature's death. Thus, we have two possible scenarios:
The spell succeeds, bringing the dead vampire back as a vampire.
The spell fails, as the person the vampire used to be has been dead for a long time.

If you want to raise them as a normal, not-undead person, then you have to count the time they spent undead as being "dead". You can't have it both ways. So unless they became a vampire within the last minute, you're out of luck.

Raise Dead would likely fail for the same reason (they've been "dead" for more than 10 days), but Resurrection might work. Regarding the "doesn't work on undead" part, I believe RAW dead undead are still considered undead (so you would need True Resurrection), but it could also make sense for a dead undead to become "inert" (no longer undead, but could be animated again). Under this interpretation, True Resurrection (and Revivify!) could be cast on undead, without needing to kill them first, whereas the clauses in Raise Dead and Resurrection specifically prevent this. I don't think this is RAI, but it might be an interesting way to play. Do note that most powerful undead such as liches are likely older than 200 years, and thus outside the time limit of even True Resurrection.

Interestingly, on page 195 of the MM, under the "Player Characters as Vampires" sidebox, it notes that one way to reverse vampirism is to kill the person and then bring them back to life, but it doesn't specify which resurrection spells would work.

As for how undead in general work, and vampires specifically, it's a bit of a rabbit hole. As far as I've seen, there's nothing that suggests that animating a dead body has any effect on that person's soul, so no, they're not "literally damned". You could, of course, run things that way if you want necromancy to be Mega Super Bad™. However, to understand how it actually works in D&D, we first have to make a distinction between a person's soul and their animating spirit. This distinction can be seen in the description of the Speak with Dead spell:

The corpse knows only what it knew in life, including the languages it knew. Answers are usually brief, cryptic, or repetitive, and the corpse is under no compulsion to offer a truthful answer if you are hostile to it or it recognizes you as an enemy. This spell doesn't return the creature's soul to its body, only its animating spirit. Thus, the corpse can't learn new information, doesn't comprehend anything that has happened since it died, and can't speculate about future events.
So from what we can infer here, the soul is what allows a person to learn new information, (and thus, presumably) comprehend what has happened to themselves, and speculate on future events. By contrast, the animating spirit retains all the memories of what has happened to themselves, is able to recognize friends and enemies, and can choose to lie. It can also be given commands.

Most of your run-of-the-mill zombies and skeletons only have an animating spirit. They might remember things they knew in life, and as such might mime tasks they used to do when they were alive, but they can't learn new information. A notable exception are liches, which retain their original soul. Vampires are another exception, but they do not retain their original soul.

When someone becomes a vampire (as I understand it), they are dead. Period. That person's soul is gone (presumably to the afterlife), and it gets replaced by a negative energy spirit that animates it as a vampire. However, they keep their animating spirit, which explains why the vampire retains some or all of its memories from when it was alive. (Actually, I'm having trouble finding this in the MM, so maybe this was just one person's interpretation after all. Take it with a grain of salt.)

Personally, I prefer a more "gray-and-gray" type of necromancy/undeath, where it's more about how the undead are used rather than necromancy itself being evil. Vanilla vampires seem to fall into the "definitely evil" category, but you could always make up a (probably weaker) free-willed type of vampire that can choose to be evil or good.

[JackPhoenix]

Snip

Yep, it's pretty much your personal interpretation. Only skeletons are specifically noted as lacking the original souls. All incorporeal undead do have them, as do ghouls, liches, revenants and wights (based on the MM fluff). Vampires likely have them, zombies propably don't, but MM doesn't say so outright. Strahd confirms vampires do have the original soul, though. So only skeletons and maybe zombies are soulless.

[ProsecutorGodot]

I mentioned damned souls because OP's game is in Barovia. At least I'm fairly confident that it is because his description of events is the exact same scenario for Doru and Father Donavich in the church of barovia village.

In general, the soul being damned is my personal take on things since the only true way to fix undeath like that is incredibly high level stuff. In the context of this conversation, the souls are damned because if you die in Barovia your soul is trapped there eternally. It says as much in the alterations to magic section for Curse of Strahd.

If OP however is not playing Curse of Strahd, then no it does not damn the soul of the undead unless the DM decides it does.