Houserules for an upcoming game

[Boci]

About to DM a 6th level game, these are the house rules I have in mind so far:

1. In addition to +1 to all stats, humans can pick one of the following feats: Moderatly Armoured, Resilient, Weapon Master. Feat varient humans are not allowed.
Edit: either expertise in a single skill, or profiency with a single save.

Reason: I dislike feat varient humans, I don't like them being the only race that can take useful feats 3 levels early, but I also don't like how regular humans are pretty much always an inferior choice to a half-elf for any character concept.

2. Find Familiar does not allow you to dissmiss the familiar to a pocket dimension, it must always exist. A familiar may take the aid action, but to do so it must succeed on a DC: 10 check, adding your profiency to the roll. Even if they fail this check, they will however still allow a rogue to get SA.
Edit: Removed the second part, and will warn players that whilst passive familiars will likely be ignored in combat (but maybe order them back to avoid AoEs), familiars activly helping the PCs with aid/SA qualification will likely end up chomped/slshed/crushed.

Reason: I find Find Familiar to be too good in 5th edition, every caster takes it and its a bit silly to to have 3+ magical animals running around, plus it makes scouting a bit too easy. This way at least familiars are a bit more vulnerable, and their ability to contribute in combat is more limited is now riskier.

3. Slower healing. You may spend a single hitdie during a short rest. During a long rest you may spend up to half your maximum hitdie and then regain 1 hitdie + 1 per 5 levels. Other abilities are recovered as normal.
Edit: If a medkit is used on a character during a short or long rest, each hit die spent may be rolled twice and the better result taken. For each hitdie "improved" in this way, one use of the medkit is consumed.

Reason: Me and my group find that the magical healing of sleep tends to spoil the mood for a lot of adventures.

Edit: 4. Uncivilized. You may have a character start without the ability to read or write. If so, gain proficiency with survival, animal handling or nature.

Reason: Eh, makes sense. Its an option, worse case players don't use it.

What do you think of them? Are there any common ones I missed?

[sophontteks]

Modded human sounds a bit..strong. is it really solving the problem? You are giving them feats, which is what you didn't want in the first plave.

Slower healing will be trumped by magical healing with that rule. Consider just making it harder for the party to get a good night's rest. There may be some healing spells you'd want to ban/nerf if you want this rule.

[Boci]

Modded human sounds a bit..strong. is it really solving the problem? You are giving them feats, which is what you didn't want in the first plave.

I don't like their ability to choose fromm all feats, because some feats are really good. I might tweak it though. Any recommendations?


Slower healing will be trumped by magical healing with that rule. Consider just making it harder for the party to get a good night's rest. There may be some healing spells you'd want to ban/nerf if you want this rule.

Its not about balance, but atmosphere. Regrowing your ripped out intestines because of healing magic is fine, regrowing them from a good nights rest? I know characters are heroes, but that's a bit much.

[Potato_Priest]

Its not about balance, but atmosphere. Regrowing your ripped out intestines because of healing magic is fine, regrowing them from a good nights rest? I know characters are heroes, but that's a bit much.

Seems like you could alternatively avoid describing losing hp as getting your innards ripped out, which ought to just be unavoidably lethal regardless of how many HP you have.

[ProsecutorGodot]

You can certainly do all of these things at the table. I don't personally think it's a good idea, here's my recommendations:

1: Give every race a feat, get over your hang ups on VHuman or just don't allow VHuman. If you give every race a feat, few will pick VHuman. You can also not allow GWM, PAM and SS as starting feats. Limiting feat choices to 3 is just as liable to make people never choose human. Resilient coupled with a +1 to all is also insane, incredibly powerful and the other two options you selected are laughably bad in comparison.

2: I don't personally think there's anything wrong with Find Familiar, you should probably just start treating the familiar as a target that can be hit, because it is. It takes a full action to send the familiar away, so if the players is using it as a Helper bot, attack it. This also punishes Chain Pact warlocks to an insane degree for no reason.

3: DMG has a slower natural healing Variant. Use that one, this idea is far too punishing and will grind your players into dust.

[Finney]

Its not about balance, but atmosphere. Regrowing your ripped out intestines because of healing magic is fine, regrowing them from a good nights rest? I know characters are heroes, but that's a bit much.

You are equating losing hit points to being physically wounded and/or injured, which is not necessarily the case. Hit points are an abstract concept, which encompasses a variety of effects and factors, not only injuries. Once these effects are considered together, hit points becomes the representation of a character's general ability to resist cumulative effects, before passing out and risking death.

A long rest restoring all of a character's hit points is only problematic when you define the loss of hit points as always representative of a physical wound or injury. You can certainly interpret it that way in your game, but I have never viewed it that way myself.

[Honest Tiefling]

I don't like their ability to choose fromm all feats, because some feats are really good. I might tweak it though. Any recommendations?

1) Tinker instead with skills, or change the ability score array. What is effectively +1/+1/+1 isn't always so appealing, but maybe +2/+1/+1 and some skills would be better.

2) Ban humans. Can you make an interesting setting for your players like this? Perhaps all humans are Vhumans, and have enslaved all other races. Vhuman can be an option later in the game, maybe.

3) Have a limited list of feats that are good, but not great. So maybe NOT Warcaster or Polearm Master, but other ones.

4) Give them a limited rerolla ability, like they had in 4e. I miss that.

[Boci]

You are equating losing hit points to being physically wounded and/or injured, which is not necessarily the case. Hit points are an abstract concept, which encompasses a variety of effects and factors, not only injuries. Once these effects are considered together, hit points becomes the representation of a character's general ability to resist cumulative effects, before passing out and risking death.


Seems like you could alternatively avoid describing losing hp as getting your innards ripped out, which ought to just be unavoidably lethal regardless of how many HP you have.

When an assassin catches you unaware and hits you for 23 damage, they've done something to your body that a good night sleep could not heal. Given that, it would seem logical that any weapon damage dealing around 23 points of damage would be represented in a similarly gory way. Then there's also the importance of silver wapons for certain creatures, which only makes sense if HP damage is physical.

Also, cure light wounds. Sure, its just a spells names, but it stronger implies HP damage was meant to be physical.

[Finney]

When an assassin catches you unaware and hits you for 23 damage, they've done something to your body that a good night sleep could not heal. Given that, it would seem logical that any weapon damage dealing around 23 points of damage would be represented in a similarly gory way. Then there's also the importance of silver wapons for certain creatures, which only makes sense if HP damage is physical.

Not necessarily.

You can certainly describe it that way in your game, but losing hit points doesn't necessarily mean that a character has suffered a physical wound or injury. You seem to have your mind made up on the subject, though, so I won't continue trying to convince you otherwise.

[Boci]

1) Tinker instead with skills, or change the ability score array. What is effectively +1/+1/+1 isn't always so appealing, but maybe +2/+1/+1 and some skills would be better.

That just seems like they'd still be a poor man's half-elf, maybe just less so.


2) Ban humans. Can you make an interesting setting for your players like this? Perhaps all humans are Vhumans, and have enslaved all other races. Vhuman can be an option later in the game, maybe.

Interesting, but not the setting feel I want for this game. It would be too distracting.


3) Have a limited list of feats that are good, but not great. So maybe NOT Warcaster or Polearm Master, but other ones.

What would you recommend? Acrobit? Mobile? Actor?


4) Give them a limited rerolla ability, like they had in 4e. I miss that.

This could work. Another idea I had is that humans get 1 inspiration point whenever they finish a long rest.


Not necessarily.

You can certainly describe it that way in your game, but losing hit points doesn't necessarily mean that a character has suffered a physical wound or injury. You seem to have your mind made up on the subject, though, so I won't continue trying to convince you otherwise.

Or you could try telling me another way, rather than just "its possible, trust me". How would you fluff the hitpoints lost from an assassin getting the drop on a PC? From a scorpion injecting poison into the fighter? From a wolf critting?

If you can show me how to fluff these without referencing physical damage I might change my mind. I definitly won't if you just tell me its posible without showing how.

[sophontteks]

When an assassin catches you unaware and hits you for 23 damage, they've done something to your body that a good night sleep could not heal. Given that, it would seem logical that any weapon damage dealing around 23 points of damage would be represented in a similarly gory way. Then there's also the importance of silver wapons for certain creatures, which only makes sense if HP damage is physical.

Also, cure light wounds. Sure, its just a spells names, but it stronger implies HP damage was meant to be physical.

If an assassin who snuck up behind someone and dealt 26 hp in damage, and if that drops someone to 0, it did a lot. But if it didn't the player managed to avoid anything remotely lethal. They are still 100% combat effective. We can't have people running around with holes in their guts being 100% combat effective right?

Even a player with 1 hp is only worn out. They have no repercussions what-so-ever at one hp.

If an assassin dealt 26 hp damage. And the player got away. He got cut, but managed to spin around before the assassin could do anything lethal. Whatever you want to spin, if the player didn't go down, the strike wasn't very deadly.

[Boci]

If an assassin who snuck up behind someone and dealt 26 hp in damage, and if that drops someone to 0, it did a lot. But if it didn't the player managed to avoid anything remotely lethal. They are still 100% combat effective. We can't have people running around with holes in their guts being 100% combat effective right?

Even a player with 1 hp is only worn out. They have no repercussions what-so-ever at one hp.

Okay, so how would you fluff it? What happened? The assassin dealt 26 damage, but the PC still has HP left. How do you fluff that ingame?

[ProsecutorGodot]

... Or you could try telling me another way, rather than just "its possible, trust me". How would you fluff the hitpoints lost from an assassin getting the drop on a PC? From a scorpion injecting poison into the fighter? From a wolf critting?

If you can show me how to fluff these without referencing physical damage I might change my mind. I definitly won't if you just tell me its posible without showing how.

The wound isn't fatal until you're dead.

"The assassin struck true, dealing 26 damage. The blow might have struck something important but you can't tell for certain, you have limited time left to dispatch the cur and get medical attention before you risk bleeding out. You narrowly avoid his follow up strike. That might have been a killing blow if it had landed, the thought of it shakes your resolve. For now, the heat of battle and the adrenaline pumping through you will keep you standing and in fighting condition, your turn."

Even humans in real life can keep moving through seemingly fatal injuries off adrenaline and willpower alone, explaining it away in a world where there are actual flying dragons is simple.

[Finney]

Or you could try telling me another way, rather than just "its possible, trust me". How would you fluff the hitpoints lost from an assassin getting the drop on a PC? From a scorpion injecting poison into the fighter? From a wolf critting?

I already did explain how hit points can represent more than physical wounds and injuries, but I will take another stab since you seemed to have missed it.

Hit points are an abstract concept that are representative of a variety effects and factors, which include luck, skill, physical tolerance, endurance, etc. If a character loses hit points, it might be a physical wound. Or it could be cumulative fatigue from dodging and parrying blows in combat.

In the first edition of D&D, Gygax described hit points as:

How much damage (actual or potential) a character can withstand before being killed. A certain amount of hit points represent the actual physical punishment which can be sustained. The remainder, a significant portion of hit points at higher levels, stands for skill, luck, and/or magical factors.

Let us suppose that a 10th level fighter has 55 hit points, plus a bonus of 30 hit points for his constitution, for a total of 85 hit points. This is the equivalent of about 18 hit dice for creatures, about what it would take to kill four huge warhorses. It is ridiculous to assume that even a fantastic fighter can take that much punishment. The same holds true to a lesser extent for clerics, thieves, and the other classes. Thus, the majority of hit points are symbolic of combat skill, luck (bestowed by supernatural powers), and magical forces. (PHB p. 34)

The game's creator didn't even view losing hit points as primarily a physical wound or injury, but you can certainly interpret it that way in your game. I think doing so leads to unnecessary house rules, like wanting to modify long rests, though.

[Boci]

I already did explain how hit points can represent more than physical wounds and injuries, but I will take another stab since you seemed to have missed it.

Hit points are an abstract concept that are representative of a variety effects and factors, which include luck, skill, physical tolerance, endurance, etc. If a character loses hit points, it might be a physical wound. Or it could be cumulative fatigue from dodging and parrying blows in combat.

In the first edition of D&D, Gygax described hit points as:

How much damage (actual or potential) a character can withstand before being killed. A certain amount of hit points represent the actual physical punishment which can be sustained. The remainder, a significant portion of hit points at higher levels, stands for skill, luck, and/or magical factors.

Let us suppose that a 10th level fighter has 55 hit points, plus a bonus of 30 hit points for his constitution, for a total of 85 hit points. This is the equivalent of about 18 hit dice for creatures, about what it would take to kill four huge warhorses. It is ridiculous to assume that even a fantastic fighter can take that much punishment. The same holds true to a lesser extent for clerics, thieves, and the other classes. Thus, the majority of hit points are symbolic of combat skill, luck (bestowed by supernatural powers), and magical forces. (PHB p. 34)

The game's creator didn't even view losing hit points as primarily a physical wound or injury, but you can certainly interpret it that way in your game. I think doing so leads to unnecessary house rules, like wanting to modify long rests, though.

You're still not explaining how you would fluff it though. I get the alternative, I've been playing this for years and have heard them. What I haven't heard, is how to translate them into an ingame description. The scorpion stinging a fighter who then requires a save against poison. Too me, that's because their stinger pierced the fighters body. How would you describe it in game? What about unconcious/paralzed character? They're not being missed surely.


"The assassin struck true, dealing 26 damage. The blow might have struck something important but you can't tell for certain, you have limited time left to dispatch the cur and get medical attention before you risk bleeding out."

Right. And does that sound like something that a good nights sleep will completly fix?

[sophontteks]

You're still not explaining how you would fluff it though. I get the alternative, I've been playing this for years and have heard them. What I haven't heard, is how to translate them into an ingame description. The scorpion stinging a fighter who then requires a save against poison. Too me, that's because their stinger pierced the fighters body. How would you describe it in game? What about unconcious/paralzed character? They're not being missed surely.
I think the harder part is justifying the players suffering zero repercussions if you fluff it otherwise. Players running around with their guts hanging out just kills the ambience of the game to me. It'd require a whole other system in place.

[Boci]

I think the harder part is justifying the players suffering zero repercussions if you fluff it otherwise. Players running around with their guts hanging out just kills the ambience of the game to me. It'd require a whole other system in place.

For me the aethetics of arrows not hitting, unconcious characters being lucky enough to avoid a knife to the back, a giant scorpion injection poison yet barely breaking the skin, kills the ambience of the game way more. Each to their own. Certainly neither system is perfect.

[Finney]

You're still not explaining how you would fluff it though. I get the alternative, I've been playing this for years and have heard them. What I haven't heard, is how to translate them into an ingame description. The scorpion stinging a fighter who then requires a save against poison. Too me, that's because their stinger pierced the fighters body. How would you describe it in game? What about unconcious/paralzed character? They're not being missed surely.

If the fighter makes his saving throw, I would describe it as:

The scorpion strikes at you with its stinger and while the blow staggers you for a moment, it fails to penetrate the protective links of your chainmail chausses.

If the fighter fails his saving throw: I would describe it as:

The scorpion strikes at you with its stinger, which finds a gap in your chausses and buries deep into your calf. You are briefly overcome with a nauseating sensation as its poison courses through your veins.

The second scenario might actually cause a significant amount of hit point loss, but nothing that shouldn't be recoverable with rest. Assuming the fighter survives the poison, of course. If it ends up killing him or knocking him unconscious, describe the following instead:

The scorpion strikes at you with its stinger, which finds a gap in your chausses and buries deep into your calf. You are overcome with a nauseating sensation as its poison courses through your veins, and after a few moments your head and chest throb with searing pain. Your vision becomes blurry and you crumple to the ground unconscious.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Right. And does that sound like something that a good nights sleep will completly fix?
No it certainly doesn't if you ignore the "might have" and "before you risk bleeding out" part. It also helps your case to completely cut out the rest of it and only look at it in a way that supports your flawed line of thinking.

You have absolutely no way to know if that dagger hit something life threatening. All the system understands is that it did damage to you and if that damage is enough to knock you unconscious or kill you, then it hit something majorly important, otherwise you keep trudging along until something finally does put you down.

The wound isn't fatal unless you're dead a little bit of pain doesn't stop a righteous paladin or a determined wizard from sucking it up and dealing with those left over wounds in the morning. Their resolve carries them forward.

[Boci]

No it certainly doesn't if you ignore the "might have" and "before you risk bleeding out" part. It also helps your case to completely cut out the rest of it and only look at it in a way that supports your flawed line of thinking.

Sure, my flawed thinking. I've never insulted your way handling HP, if it works for you great. Shame you can't return the curtesy.

I also don't understand what you mean. I didn't ignore "the before you risk bleeding out" part. That what in fact the bases of my point. If you have a wound that is bleeding heavily, which is what you appeared to describing, a good nights rest should not completly heal it, regardless of how awesome you are to push through it.


If the fighter makes his saving throw, I would describe it as:

Each to their own. I wouldn't change how to fluff the physical aspect of the attack based on whether or not a seperate save passed or failed, since surely the attack happened the same regardless. Plus as a DM, I would describe the physical attack first, then ask for a save, so its not even an option for me, unless I change how I nerrate combat.

[Finney]

Each to their own. I wouldn't change how to fluff the physical aspect of the attack based on whether or not a seperate save passed or failed, since surely the attack happened the same regardless. Plus as a DM, I would describe the physical attack first, then ask for a save, so its not even an option for me, unless I change how I nerrate combat.

You don't necessarily have to describe it as the blow failing to penetrate armor on a successful saving throw. You could also describe the attack this way:

The scorpion strikes at you with its stinger, which finds a gap in your chainmail chausses. You are briefly overcome with a nauseating sensation as its poison courses through your veins, but you soldier on and shrug off the effects.

The damage is mostly representative of luck (resisting the poison), endurance and the cumulative effect of fatigue during combat. All of which can easily be explained as having "healed" from getting a good night's sleep.

[Boci]

You don't necessarily have to describe it as the blow failing to penetrate armor on a successful saving throw. You could also describe the attack this way:

The scorpion strikes at you with its stinger, which finds a gap in your chainmail chausses and buries deep into your calf. You are briefly overcome with a nauseating sensation as its poison courses through your veins, but you soldier on and shrug off the effects.

The damage is mostly representative of luck (resisting the poison), endurance and the cumulative effect of fatigue during combat. All of which can easily be explained as having "healed" from getting a good night's sleep.

I disagree. I giant scorpion stinger is the equivilant to a longsword wielded in two hands. The wound from that sinking deep into your calf, should not heal completly in one night, especially not if you have suffered further damage.

[Contrast]

For me the aethetics of arrows not hitting,

The arrow nicks you.

The arrow slams into your armour - it didn't penetrate but you'll feel that blow later.


unconcious characters being lucky enough to avoid a knife to the back,

As you fade in and out of consciousness you see a blade flashing down towards you. You feebly struggle and your unexpected movement means the blade doesn't strike true.

The opponent goes to finish you but is momentarily distracted by <something else in combat> giving you a few more moments of life.


a giant scorpion injection poison yet barely breaking the skin

As you feel the tail begin to inject venom you yank it out before it can deliver a full dose.

As the tail whips towards your face you block it with your arm. The armour stops it penetrating fully but you feel the tip scratch the surface of your skin, which burns from the poison.



Easy. In relation to your assassin example - 26 damage would indeed be a mighty blow to a level 1 character. It would barely be an inconvenience to a raging level 20 barbarian however. If you always describe 26 damage as being enough to brutally eviscerate someone things are going to become increasingly awkward as you level regardless of what healing system you use.

That said, I too would recommend just using the gritty rest variant from the DMG if you'd prefer slower paced healing.

[Finney]

I disagree. I giant scorpion stinger is the equivilant to a longsword wielded in two hands. The wound from that sinking deep into your calf, should not heal completly in one night, especially not if you have suffered further damage.

You can describe that attack and every other in your game as being a physical wound or injury, if you want. You asked for alternatives and I provided them.

Hits points have always been an abstract concept. When you treat them as always representative of physical wounds and injuries, it will necessitate either the suspension of disbelief when it comes to what can be healed during a long rest or making houserules.

[Honest Tiefling]

What would you recommend? Acrobit? Mobile? Actor?

If you allow Xanathar's, Prodigy for the sheer flavor of it. I mean, humans aren't as graceful as the elves or as learned as the gnomes, but damn if they don't learn and adapt fast. Or they could replace it with another racial feat of races inclined to boink humans.


This could work. Another idea I had is that humans get 1 inspiration point whenever they finish a long rest.

Seems like a lot, but it really depends on how you handle inspiration points to begin with. I ask because while there are rules, this is a house rule thread. Admittedly I am not so good with crunch. Maybe the ability not to GAIN more inspiration, but the ability to reroll 1-2 on the die when they use it? Slight bonus, I think, but it reflects them being very determined which is often the human hat.

As for the healing, maybe players can have normal healing if they use healer's kit or similar items? Sprinkle some herbs, rub in a salve, burn a ritual cord, and voila! Good as new. No need for a healer class or feat.

[Boci]

The arrow nicks you.

Yeah, because that's not going to get silly. "You're fire fifth arrow at the ogre, and nick it again!" Bouncing off the armour is better, but still won't work in the long run. At some point you're going to wonder which blacksmith made all the arrows in the land on their off day.


As you fade in and out of consciousness you see a blade flashing down towards you. You feebly struggle and your unexpected movement means the blade doesn't strike true.

That's not really how unconcious works. You're unconcious, not drifting in an out. Otherwise you would still be aware.


The opponent goes to finish you but is momentarily distracted by <something else in combat> giving you a few more moments of life.

I refuse to accept your HP represents your luck to have an opponent distracted. "Wow, I went up a level and gained hp. I have have 0.35% more chance to have an opponent be distracted when they try and gut me while I'm unconcious.


As you feel the tail begin to inject venom you yank it out before it can deliver a full dose.

As the tail whips towards your face you block it with your arm. The armour stops it penetrating fully but you feel the tip scratch the surface of your skin, which burns from the poison.

The first one doesn't work, the second is the arrow problem again. Its works once, then gets increasingly redicolous every time its repeated.


Hits points have always been an abstract concept. When you treat them as always representative of physical wounds and injuries, it will necessitate either the suspension of disbelief when it comes to what can be healed during a long rest or making houserules.

Yeah, but its just one house rule, vs. constantly needing to suspend disbelief whenever I describe an injury someone not doing any major damage, despite the logistics of the attack strongly implying it would.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Sure, my flawed thinking. I've never insulted your way handling HP, if it works for you great. Shame you can't return the curtesy.

I also don't understand what you mean. I didn't ignore "the before you risk bleeding out" part. That what in fact the bases of my point. If you have a wound that is bleeding heavily, which is what you appeared to describing, a good nights rest should not completly heal it, regardless of how awesome you are to push through it.

Alright let's go at this from the opposite end then. Since you refuse to believe that hit point damage can be anything but bloody and gruesome, allow me to build you a scenario.

"You are Henry, an up and coming soldier with a hot head and an ego the size of a dragon's hoard(a level 4 fighter with 40 hp). You challenge your commander to a sparring match. Combatants are to be armed with wooden swords and training armor, your reward for beating him would be the day off basic training. You're confident in your skills and have already made plans to drink and "make merry" with your sweetheart at the inn.

Your commander shows up with a wooden sword in hand, and nothing but his undergarments. It's insulting, he thinks you weak. You raise your sword and shield and charge.

He avoids every strike you throw with ease, battering you senseless with only the pommel of his blade. The throbbing pain from the blunt part of his sword leaves quickly but the strikes to your pride linger. After what seems like hours, while only actually having been minutes at most, you are an exhausted, bruised and retching heap at the feet of your commander. Your will to go on has been shattered, you can't continue the duel. You struggle helplessly to regain your breath as darkness takes your vision.

You awake to a bucket of cold water dumped onto your face, your commander standing over you with a disapproving look on his face. He picks you up, pats you on the back and tells you to get some rest and get back for training in the morning"

In this scenario, Henry has effectively taken 40 hit points worth of damage. His body will recover quickly but his pride might never be the same. You're not always going to lose HP because someone took a literal chunk out of your body, just like you're not automatically at risk of dying because someone dealt 26 damage to you. The system doesn't have rules in place to account for different severities or types of injury so you can't just arbitrarily decide that getting stabbed shouldn't be something you can get over in a night.

The wound isn't fatal until you're dead. If 5e's interpretation of HP doesn't mesh with you, you'd have an easier time finding a new system to play than doctoring this system to work within your (in my opinion) ridiculous standards.

[Boci]

If 5e's interpretation of HP doesn't mesh with you, you'd have an easier time finding a new system to play than doctoring this system to work within your (in my opinion) ridiculous standards.

Why do people have to do this? I have one preference, you have another. Why does yours have to be right? I don't insist mine is. I find the contorted efforts to narrate HP as not being physical damage redicolous, but I never once told people to stop doing that or find a different system. *Shrug* If you're going to insist I'm wrong, you can stop wasting effort posting.

[Contrast]

Yeah, because that's not going to get silly.

You're the one describing people repeatedly getting stabbed and it not inconveniencing them in the slightest but somehow I'm the silly one. :smalltongue:

I gave you multiple examples on each one which I came up with in 2 seconds off the top of my head precisely to pre-empt that response. If you want me to come up with more I'd probably want to know some more about the specifics of the fight such as the terrain and equipment and type of attack so I could get more inventive.

Plus you don't have to describe every attack in detail - 'He swings at you for 10 damage' is acceptable if you're drawing a blank that second and the fight has a load of mooks in it.

[Boci]

You're the one describing people repeatedly getting stabbed and it not inconveniencing them in the slightest but somehow I'm the silly one. :smalltongue:

Yeah, as I said, neither system is perfect, both have their flaws. I, and most of the group I will be GMing for, find the flaws of hp = physical damage aproach easier to handle. Shockingly, I don't think people are wrong for disagreeing with me, which seems to be harder for the other side to do in return.

[Finney]

Yeah, but its just one house rule, vs. constantly needing to suspend disbelief whenever I describe an injury someone not doing any major damage, despite the logistics of the attack strongly implying it would.

It boils down to how you choose to narrate combat and how you choose to conceptualize hit points. It seems you are only comfortable with treating the loss of hit points as a physical wound or injury, so the house rule is probably your best bet.

I personally find that approach problematic for the reason Gygax pointed out: the amount of punishment that even a mid level character can take would be more than enough to kill multiple warhorses.

[Boci]

]I personally find that approach problematic for the reason Gygax pointed out: the amount of punishment that even a mid level character can take would be more than enough to kill multiple warhorses.

And would multiple warhorses have taken what you took, they would all be dead, so...

THe removal of damage reduction has made it easier to fluff the luck/combat fatigue aproach, but whilst rare, the material weapons are made out of can still count, and that is wierd if weapons don't physically wound.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Why do people have to do this? I have one preference, you have another. Why does yours have to be right? I don't insist mine is. I find the contorted efforts to narrate HP as not being physical damage redicolous, but I never once told people to stop doing that or find a different system. *Shrug* If you're going to insist I'm wrong, you can stop wasting effort posting.

By definition, in the PHB that defines the rules of this game, hit points are not only your physical well being. You're not wrong for thinking that full healing on a long rest is "magical" and sometimes a stretch, but you are wrong in assuming that every single time you are dealt 26 damage it has to constitute a physical or gruesome injury.

I find your efforts to ignore the systems definition of hitpoints to be ONLY physical damage ridiculous.


Hit points represent a combination of physical and mental durability, the will to live, and luck. Creatures with more hit points are more difficult to kill. Those with fewer hit points are more fragile.

You asked for fluff on how you can sustain "lethal" damage without a physical injury, I gave it to you.

[Boci]

You asked for fluff on how you can sustain "lethal" damage without a physical injury, I gave it to you.

And fluff provided woulsn't work for me. My solution would be to conclude each to their own and that preferences are a thing. Your solution is that you must be right and me and my group are having badwrongfun for enjoying D&D with HP damage = physical wounds. Oh well...

[Finney]

And would multiple warhorses have taken what you took, they would all be dead, so...

Huh? The point Gygax was making is that if hit points were solely or even mostly representative of physical wounds, injuries or punishment that a character could take - it would be ridiculous (his words).

You asked for feedback about your houserules, but you don't seem very open or receptive to either suggestions or constructive criticism. Time for me to bow out of this thread.

Good luck with your game.

[Boci]

Huh? The point Gygax was making is that if hit points were solely or even mostly representative of physical wounds, injuries or punishment that a character could take - it would be ridiculous (his words).

My point was that regardless of what HP represents, be it physical wounds or luck and battle fatigue, if multitple warhorses were subject to the same things a midlevel character is, they will be dead.


You asked for feedback about your houserules, but you don't seem very open or receptive to either suggestions or constructive criticism. Time for me to bow out of this thread.

I listened to Honest Tiefling about how to change my aproach to humans. I also listened to what you had to say, then decided it wouldn't work as well as what I already had. Maybe don't offer advice if you're going to be offended when people don't take it?

Its possible we got off on the wrong foot because you assumed I didn't know of the alternate way of fluffing HP, when I did and just found it didn't work for me, but I don't get why you feel I'm not open to critisism just because I'm not taking your advice. Surely not taking advice is an options, otherwise its not advice, but an order.

[ProsecutorGodot]

And fluff provided woulsn't work for me. My solution would be to conclude each to their own and that preferences are a thing. Your solution is that you must be right and me and my group are having badwrongfun for enjoying D&D with HP damage = physical wounds. Oh well...

You are creating your own problem by insisting that. More power to you, but insisting that the only way to lose HP is physically and the only way to heal it effectively is magically only further takes away from realism.

It's in a different direction, sure, but it's just as ridiculous to imagine a world where most novice adventurers don't make it past their first year because they're all hemophiliacs who can't naturally heal. The system you suggested would inevitably end with the guaranteed death of an adventurer, regardless of how life threatening the stab they suffered the day before actually was. There wouldn't be enough healing magic in the world to ensure the majority of people were at their best after a rest. Your first injury would literally be a death sentence.

Use the healing variants detailed in the DMG. If you combine Gritty Realism Rest Variant with the Slow Natural Healing variant you'll have the slow grinding gameplay you seem to want. Getting stabbed for 26 damage would put you out for weeks.

[Boci]

It's in a different direction, sure, but it's just as ridiculous to imagine a world where most novice adventurers don't make it past their first year because they're all hemophiliacs who can't naturally heal.

Can't naturally heal? A wizard with 10 con heals on average 3.5 hitpoints a day.

I listened to what you have to say, I disagree. Sorry I didn't take your advice, but good to hear it works for you.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Can't naturally heal? A wizard with 10 con heals on average 3.5 hitpoints a day.

I listened to what you have to say, I disagree. Sorry I didn't take your advice, but good to hear it works for you.

Your 10 con wizard would have to go the rest of his life without getting hit, otherwise every bit of HP he gained on level up would be a net loss. You've taken away healing on a long rest so they have to spend the single hit die you allow them just to gain their new maximum hit points, if they're lucky. Couple that with the fact that they only would have 1 hit die until level 5 and they'll probably never be at full health without a cleric's assistance again. Healing magic is a finite resource so someone would eventually have to make a sacrifice.

It's actually funny, with the method you suggested in OP your survivability depends more on luck than anything else, if you got less than average on your hit die you eventually wear yourself out and die. The potential for a party to just wither away because their natural ability to heal is SO poor is incredibly realistic

[Boci]

Your 10 con wizard would have to go the rest of his life without getting hit, otherwise every bit of HP he gained on level up would be a net loss. You've taken away healing on a long rest so they have to spend the single hit die you allow them just to gain their new maximum hit points, if they're lucky. Couple that with the fact that they only would have 1 hit die until level 5 and they'll probably never be at full health without a cleric's assistance again. Healing magic is a finite resource so someone would eventually have to make a sacrifice.

What? This makes no sense.


A 6th level wizard, probably has 14 con. If they roll that's 5d6+18, or they can take the above average for 38. They have 6 hitdie for healing, each worth 1d6+2 for a total of 6d6+12. They can spend one during a short rest and three whenever they short rest and regain 2. They need 3 days to recover all hitdie, and maybe double that if they also lost all their hitpoints too and had no magical healing available. So worst case scenario a week's downtime, assuming they have no magic healing, which is a questionable assumption in a party.

Its worse than the default sules sure, but nowhere near the apolyse you're making it out to be. You do realize characters can take a break for a few days right?


It's actually funny, with the method you suggested in OP your survivability depends more on luck than anything else, if you got less than average on your hit die you eventually wear yourself out and die. The potential for a party to just wither away because their natural ability to heal is SO poor is incredibly realistic

Without downtime, yes, yes it is. You repeatedly fight each day and only rest 8 hours at a time, yes without magic you're going to die. That is realistic, glad we agree.

[ProsecutorGodot]

A 6th level wizard, probably has 14 con. If they roll that's 5d6+18, or they can take the above average for 38. They have 6 hitdie for healing, each worth 1d6+2 for a total of 6d6+12. They can spend one during a short rest and three whenever they short rest and regain 2. They need 3 days to recover all hitdie, and maybe double that if they also lost all their hitpoints too and had no magical healing available. So worst case scenario a week's downtime, assuming they have no magic healing, which is a questionable assumption in a party.

Its worse than the default sules sure, but nowhere near the apolyse you're making it out to be. You do realize characters can take a break for a few days right?
Start the wizard at level 1 and work from there. Your wizard would not magically start at level 6 where suddenly they aren't getting short changed on long rest hit die. If you can't work that wizard into being level 6 without having to roll lucky on your hit die then you've got a problem.

You're assuming just as much that they would be able to consistently take multiple days break whenever they want. What happens if they've been sent to clean out the sewers or some other dungeon, as adventurers are often sent out to do, and they're caught between encounters without hit die. They die.

You could alter a recommended adventuring day to accommodate their terrible natural healing but then why did you even bother going through all that trouble in the first place.

Gods forbid something has to be done quickly, one nasty hit and your party has to forfeit the contract because Jimbo needs 4 days to recover.

[Boci]

Start the wizard at level 1 and work from there. Your wizard would not magically start at level 6 where suddenly they aren't getting short changed on long rest hit die. If you can't work that wizard into being level 6 without having to roll lucky on your hit die then you've got a problem.

In the opening post I mention these are house rules for a 6th level game. Why would I be concerned how they effect a character from another game?


You're assuming just as much that they would be able to consistently take multiple days break whenever they want.

Yeah, funny isn't it. Its almost as if one of us is the DM and can make these assumption about the game and have a good chance of being right. Which one of us is that again?


Gods forbid something has to be done quickly, one nasty hit and your party has to forfeit the contract because Jimbo needs 4 days to recover.

Sounds like a really good moment. The party are reminded of their mortality and that sometimes they will fail, and that caution is better recklessly persuit of glory and success. I don't see the above as bad. I tend not to give time sensative missions for various reason, but the few times I do, this would be an acceptable outcome for me, and my players I feel.

[ProsecutorGodot]

In the opening post I mention these are house rules for a 6th level game. Why would I be concerned how they effect a character from another game?

Because if you want to arbitrarily change healing because you shouldn't "realistically" be able to recover that quickly, how did your adventurers even get to 6th level with that kind of handicap. How did they get so far above the common man when a goblin could dice them into ribbons in a handful of swings.

The sheer amount of luck or immense time investment (months or years) to get to the point in which you can only relatively safely be an adventurer is completely ridiculous.

It really can be as apocalyptic as I've described, the only way it doesn't end up that way is if the party takes their sweet time and nurses their tender paper cuts with an hour long rest.

This could all be solved if you would take the DMG variants into consideration instead of pushing a luck based grinder system that will eventually kill somebody purely off the fact that their one allowed hit die per short rest rolled a 1. Combining the two variants I mentioned earlier accomplishes nearly the same thing without putting a poorly thought out limit on their healing. If you're advocating taking weeks of downtime as the balancing factor just make the rests take longer instead.


Sounds like a really good moment. The party are reminded of their mortality and that sometimes they will fail, and that caution is better recklessly persuit of glory and success. I don't see the above as bad. I tend not to give time sensative missions for various reason, but the few times I do, this would be an acceptable outcome for me, and my players I feel.
This is an even better question. If your players are expected to fail when it comes to them getting paid how are they paying for the food and lodging they need while jimbo recovers. If they're making enough gold to live comfortably during the extended downtime that their frail bodies forced them into, why would they even go back to risking their lives for fortune.

[Boci]

The sheer amount of luck or immense time investment (months or years) to get to the point in which you can only relatively safely be an adventurer is completely ridiculous.

Not it isn't, that's entierly subjective.

Come on, you're being silly. You won't except accept that I find a few years to reach level 6 perfectly reasonable, you described negativly moment in a game I would view as memorable and good, and you've told me off for making assumptions about a game I'm going to DM.

Just accept that we have different preferences and move on.


This is an even better question. If your players are expected to fail when it comes to them getting paid how are they paying for the food and lodging they need while jimbo recovers. If they're making enough gold to live comfortably during the extended downtime that their frail bodies forced them into, why would they even go back to risking their lives for fortune.

They're expected to fail occassionally. How do they eat then? On the savings they have from when they didn't fail. Or they burrow the money and the next plothook is paying it off. Or one party member is treated and the rest do manual/non-adventuring labour. Ect, ect.

This may be a problem for you, but it is not a problem for me and my players. Kindly accept that.

[Eric Diaz]

If you allow Xanathar's, Prodigy for the sheer flavor of it. I mean, humans aren't as graceful as the elves or as learned as the gnomes, but damn if they don't learn and adapt fast. Or they could replace it with another racial feat of races inclined to boink humans.

Came here to say that. Allow humans to take prodigy at level 1, nothing else. Will be useful for many characters, perfect with human "flavor".

[thoroughlyS]

1. In addition to +1 to all stats, humans can pick one of the following feats: Moderatly Armoured, Resilient, Weapon Master. Feat varient humans are not allowed.
Reason: I dislike feat varient humans, I don't like them being the only race that can take useful feats 3 levels early, but I also don't like how regular humans are pretty much always an inferior choice to a half-elf for any character concept.
To make standard Humans more competitive, I agree with giving them double proficiency on one skill (not the whole of Prodigy).

One tweak I've mulled over for variant Humans is to restrict the free feat to "half feats" (those with +1 to an ability score). This restriction eliminates the most powerful options (e.g. Crossbow Expert, Great Weapon Master, War Caster), and makes a variant Human have similar ability score increases to other races. This still includes Resilient, but I think it's fine to have a "default" choice. Perhaps also allow the feats with an Ability Score Prerequisite, and Magic Initiate.

2. Find Familiar does not allow you to dissmiss the familiar to a pocket dimension, it must always exist. A familiar may take the aid action, but to do so it must succeed on a DC: 10 check, adding your profiency to the roll. Even if they fail this check, they will however still allow a rogue to get SA.
Reason: I find Find Familiar to be too good in 5th edition, every caster takes it and its a bit silly to to have 3+ magical animals running around, plus it makes scouting a bit too easy. This way at least familiars are a bit more vulnerable, and their ability to contribute in combat is more limited.
I agree with other posters that a change in tactics — targeting familiars — might be the most appropriate. One outlier is the Owl (who can stay out of reach with Flyby), which you can ban as a choice.

3. Slower healing. You may spend a single hitdie during a short rest. During a long rest you may spend up to half your maximum hitdie and then regain 1 hitdie + 1 per 5 levels. Other abilities are recovered as normal.
Reason: Me and my group find that the magical healing of sleep tends to spoil the mood for a lot of adventures.
I second using the Slow Natural Healing variant (DMG p.267).

[Boci]

To make standard Humans more competitive, I agree with giving them double proficiency on one skill (not the whole of Prodigy).

Okay, so +1 to all stats, plus they can choose between expertise to a single skill or proficiency to a single save?


I agree with other posters that a change in tactics — targeting familiars — might be the most appropriate. One outlier is the Owl (who can stay out of reach with Flyby), which you can ban as a choice.

Hmmm. I kinda like the idea of familiars not being tools you use and then put away when you don't need them, rather being constant companions. I'll drop the need to make a check to successfully aid, but I'll keeo the lack of ability


I second using the Slow Natural Healing variant (DMG p.267).

I played Tyranny of Dragons, or whatever it was called, twice. Once with Slow Natural Healing, once without. The difference, was minimal. Between the magical healing we had access to, and leftover hitdie, plus the fact that particularly difficult battles tended to be followed by at least a few days downtime, I don't remember finishing longrests without full HP really being a thing with Slow Natural Healing.

Someone earlier mention medkits, and I will add them to make them more useful, but for now I'm keeping that rule largely unchanged.

So, edited house rules are in the OP, reposted here for convinience:

1. In addition to +1 to all stats, humans can pick either expertise in a single skill, or profiency with a single save.

Reason: I dislike feat varient humans, I don't like them being the only race that can take useful feats 3 levels early, but I also don't like how regular humans are pretty much always an inferior choice to a half-elf for any character concept.

2. Find Familiar does not allow you to dissmiss the familiar to a pocket dimension, it must always exist. In addition, players will be warned that whilst passive familiars will likely be ignored in combat (but maybe order them back to avoid AoEs), familiars activly helping the PCs with aid/SA qualification will likely end up chomped/slshed/crushed.

Reason: I find Find Familiar to be too good in 5th edition, every caster takes it and its a bit silly to to have 3+ magical animals running around, plus it makes scouting a bit too easy. This way at least familiars are a bit more vulnerable, and their ability to contribute in combat is now riskier.

3. Slower healing. You may spend a single hitdie during a short rest. During a long rest you may spend up to half your maximum hitdie and then regain 1 hitdie + 1 per 5 levels. Other abilities are recovered as normal. If a medkit is used on a character during a short or long rest, each hit die spent may be rolled twice and the better result taken. For each hitdie "improved" in this way, one use of the medkit is consumed.

Reason: Me and my group find that the magical healing of sleep tends to spoil the mood for a lot of adventures.

4. Uncivilized. You may have a character start without the ability to read or write. If so, gain proficiency with survival, animal handling or nature.

Reason: Eh, makes sense. Its an option, worse case players don't use it.

[strangebloke]

1. This is probably ok, but nobody will take a vHuman unless they're just trying to make "Guy with all good stats."

2. Sure, fine. Only wizards and chain warlocks and Arcane Tricksters really get them, in my experience. Magic initiate is not the world's most popular feat.

3. I realize that this caused a ruckus down-thread. I pretty much disagree with you on everything. Let me dig into this.

From a balance perspective, you've made magical healing 100% critical in your game, and nerfed martials into the floor. Consider a party of a fighter, barbarian, rogue, and wizard. If they have a rough day, they'll need to spend 3-5 days getting back into shape. Well, except for the fighter, who gets back into fighting shape in a single day thanks to second wind. Conversely, a party with a druid, paladin, ranger, and bard can get back into play after a single long rest. That's silly unbalanced. In a month, a healer-less party can have 6-7 adventuring days, and a healered party can have 15. A party with healing spirit can probably get 30 days of adventuring in.

From a simulationist ("realistic") perspective I don't know what you think you've gained. If Joey going to one hp means that his guts have been torn out, how is he still fighting at full capacity? How is Second Wind not pure magic? What the frickle frack is Inspiring Leader doing to people by giving them temporary HP?

My suggestion for getting rid of "magical sleep" is to use "Gritty Realism rules" for resting. I'll post my version below. Basically, just make short rests take as long as long rests currently do, (eight hours)make long rests take a whole week, and adjust spell durations to compensate. That way you get rid of balance issues with magical healing and still make it feel like the party really has to take some time to rest up. If you want to make injuries really feel like injuries, you need to inflict exhaustion and other status debuffs on the party. I'll also post my injury rules below.


Resting
-Long rests are 7 days of downtime. Long Rests remove all levels of exhaustion.
-Short rests require eight hours of downtime, and remove 1 level of exhaustion

Spells
-Magic items that regain charges each day, now do so at the start of each week.
-Spells with a duration of 1 hour now have a duration of “Until dawn of the next day”
-Spells with a duration of 8 hours now have a duration of “until the end of the week”
-Spells with a duration of 24 hours (including animate dead) now have a duration of “until the end of the next new moon or full moon” (15 days, roughly)

Lingering Injuries/Exhaustion
-When a character takes damage from a single source equal to or greater than half his his point maximum, he must make a DC 15 Constitution saving throw. If he fails, he is stunned until the end of his next turn. If he fails by 5 or more, he drops to zero hit points.
-When a character is hit by a critical hit, the DM rolls on the injury table with advantage.
-When a character drops to 0 hit points but isn’t killed outright, the DM rolls on the injury table (if he was reduced to 0 hit points by a blow that took have his maximum hitpoints, roll with disadvantage) and the character gains a level of exhaustion.

Injury Table
d20, Injury: Effect and Treatment

1, Irreparable Damage: You lose an eye, hand, or foot. If an eye, you have disadvantage on Wisdom(Perception) checks. If you lose two eyes, you go blind. If a leg or arm, you gain the Broken Arm or Broken Leg condition. Regardless, the condition gained can only be removed by Regeneration, a magical prosthesis, or a similar effect.

2, Broken Arm: You cannot use one of your hands. Healing magic of 5th level or higher can remove this injury. If you spend a long rest in complete bedrest, someone can make a DC 15 Wisdom(medicine) check to attempt to remove this injury.

3, Broken Leg: Your base land speed is reduced by 10 feet. If you take this injury twice or you don’t have a crutch or prosthesis, you cannot stand. Healing magic of 5th level or higher can remove this injury. If you spend a long rest in complete bedrest, someone can make a DC 15 Wisdom(medicine) check to attempt to remove this injury.

4, Internal Injury: Whenever you attempt an action in combat, you must make a DC 10 Constitution Saving Throw. On a failed save you lose your action and can’t use reactions until the start of your next turn. This condition goes away if you spend a long rest in complete bedrest, or if healing magic of greater than 5th level is used on you.

5-7, Broken Ribs: Same as internal injury, but the DC is 5, and the required healing magic level is 4.

8-10, Limp:Your movement speed is reduced by 5. If you take the dash action, make a DC 10 Dexterity saving throw or fall prone. Magical healing can remove the limp

11-13, Festering Wound:Your HP maximum is reduced by 1 for each of your maximum hit dice. If you are magically healed, you can forgo some of the healing effect to recover a number of maximum hit points equal to the amount of healing that you gave up. Otherwise, over the course of a short or long rest, a character can make a medicine check with a DC equal to the number of maximum hit points lost + 5 to restore the lost hit points.

14-16, Horrible Scar: You have disadvantage on Charisma(Persuasion) checks and advantage on Charisma(Intimidation) checks that reference the scar. Magical healing can remove this effect.

17-20, Minor Scar: No adverse effect. Can be removed by magical healing (if desired)

[Boci]

[B]From a balance perspective, you've made magical healing 100% critical in your game, and nerfed martials into the floor. Consider a party of a fighter, barbarian, rogue, and wizard. If they have a rough day, they'll need to spend 3-5 days getting back into shape. Well, except for the fighter, who gets back into fighting shape in a single day thanks to second wind. Conversely, a party with a druid, paladin, ranger, and bard can get back into play after a single long rest. That's silly unbalanced. In a month, a healer-less party can have 6-7 adventuring days, and a healered party can have 15. A party with healing spirit can probably get 30 days of adventuring in.

See, what you describe as a problem, I don't see as one. There are two options:

1. The party has no magical healer (a set up I am yet to see): So the party needs 3-5 days to recover. As I DM, that means I won;t choose a plot that is time sensative to a degree that this would make success impossible, and, why is that recovery time a problem? Do characters die if they have to take down time? Are you worried its boring? I don't think the group will be bored with downtime and a chance to RP in a non-lethal enviroment.

2. The party has at least one magical healer: They can recover easily.

What you describe as a problem I see as a feature. Yes the two scenarios are unbalanced, but they won't exist in the same game, so why does it matter?


From a simulationist ("realistic") perspective I don't know what you think you've gained. If Joey going to one hp means that his guts have been torn out, how is he still fighting at full capacity? How is Second Wind not pure magic? What the frickle frack is Inspiring Leader doing to people by giving them temporary HP?

That can seem a bit strange, but its worth noting he has 1 HP. If the fight continues, he's either going to drop to 0, at which point he won't be at full capacity, or he will be healed. It would be quite rare for somone to fight for multiple rounds with 1 hp. Plus, adrenaline is a hell of thing. There was a news story about a Japanese biker who "failed to notice his leg had been severed below the knee when he hit a safety barrier, and rode on for 2 km".

Temporary hitpoints are moral. They allow you to continue fighting, and then dissapear after the fight since moral is not forever. In contrast to cure wounds, which actually fixes your damaged body, and thus stay with you.

A fighter's second wind is their ability to fight on after suffering wounds that would drop others.

[sophontteks]

So if I have 25 hp and something hits me for 24 I would go unconcious next round even if I don't take damage? Is there another houserule you didn't mention at play here?

[Boci]

So if I have 25 hp and something hits me for 24 I would go unconcious next round even if I don't take damage? Is there another houserule you didn't mention at play here?

No, but you're in combat generaly, where you are unlikely to stay at 1HP for long. You're either going to be hit again and knocked into dying, or healed. Or combat is over, and then my players tend to then roleplay being borderline incapacatated by the damage they took. Slumping down, going quiet, ect.

[strangebloke]

See, what you describe as a problem, I don't see as one. There are two options:

1. The party has no magical healer (a set up I am yet to see): So the party needs 3-5 days to recover. As I DM, that means I won;t choose a plot that is time sensative to a degree that this would make success impossible, and, why is that recovery time a problem? Do characters die if they have to take down time? Are you worried its boring? I don't think the group will be bored with downtime and a chance to RP in a non-lethal enviroment.

2. The party has at least one magical healer: They can recover easily.

What you describe as a problem I see as a feature. Yes the two scenarios are unbalanced, but they won't exist in the same game, so why does it matter?

Sure, you can say "I'll adjust the pacing to compensate" but what you're really saying is, "I'll throw easier problems at the party."

Which, OK, but that's kind of lame. I want to be as heroic as possible at my current level. I don't want the DM to throw soft-ball adventures at my party because we have a sucky composition that can't handle a tough adventure. So ultimately, someone has to be the healer, and that's lame. Especially since a paladin or ranger probably won't pack enough healing, so you'll need a specialized bard, druid, or cleric.

Or everyone just plays fighters and they second-wind themselves back into full HP every day. Seriously, if I'm a fighter and the rest of the party has to take 5 days to heal up, I might just heal up, go and earn some money pitfighting, get hurt, and heal up, go pitfighting, then heal up again before they come back. Suddenly everyone's jealous of the fighter.

You say that it's a feature. How so? What is the advantage of your system over the 'gritty realism' rest system? Both options get rid of magical overnight recoveries. Your rules also turns minor abilities like Second Wind and the Lizardfolk Bite into massively useful tools.

By default, everyone has access to lots of nonmagical healing, so second wind etc aren't that crazy. You removed almost all of the game's nonmagical healing, which massively boosts certain abilities, and massively nerfs others, like song of rest.


That can seem a bit strange, but its worth noting he has 1 HP. If the fight continues, he's either going to drop to 0, at which point he won't be at full capacity, or he will be healed. It would be quite rare for somone to fight for multiple rounds with 1 hp. Plus, adrenaline is a hell of thing. There was a news story about a Japanese biker who "failed to notice his leg had been severed below the knee when he hit a safety barrier, and rode on for 2 km".
Somebody with 1 hit point can hike fifty miles in the jungle without resting. It isn't an adrenaline thing.

In fact, if the party is without any healing resources left, this is a very possible occurrence. If the guy stabilizes and can't be healed further, they'll likely want to travel back to town for a safe resting spot. There's nothing from stopping the guy with 1 HP from doing this.

If you want to represent injuries, you need a seperate, non-HP-based system for that. I provided one. What do you think of it?


Temporary hitpoints are moral. They allow you to continue fighting, and then dissapear after the fight since moral is not forever. In contrast to cure wounds, which actually fixes your damaged body, and thus stay with you.

A fighter's second wind is their ability to fight on after suffering wounds that would drop others.

So let's tally this up then.
-Inspiring leader grants "Morale" which is temporary HP (even if it goes away, it counts towards HP)
-Second Wind grants the ability to fight on after others would drop.
-What about a Champion's self-heal ability?
-A Barbarian's resistance? That's to showcase their adrenaline letting them shrug off wounds, right?

It is almost as though HP represents more things than meat. (but also includes meat)

[strangebloke]

No, but you're in combat generaly, where you are unlikely to stay at 1HP for long. You're either going to be hit again and knocked into dying, or healed. Or combat is over, and then my players tend to then roleplay being borderline incapacatated by the damage they took. Slumping down, going quiet, ect.

What about out of combat. What if my buddy stabilizes me with a healer's kit and I have to walk back to town because we're out of spells and potions?

I'm quite literally walking miles with no health left.

[Boci]

Sure, you can say "I'll adjust the pacing to compensate" but what you're really saying is, "I'll throw easier problems at the party."

Which, OK, but that's kind of lame.

Since you are so concerned about my party enjoyment of the game (and not just manufactoring problems to win an argument on the internet), I will ask the players specifically if they find a pace with allows them to take 3-5 days downtime whenever neccissary (assuming no magic healing in the party) to be lame, and oif they say yes I will consider one of the alternatives suggested in this thread.


It is almost as though HP represents more things than meat. (but also includes meat)

Yeah sure. Physic damage obviously isn't meat, its right in the same. I still don't like full heal from an 8 hour long rest.


What about out of combat. What if my buddy stabilizes me with a healer's kit and I have to walk back to town because we're out of spells and potions?

I'm quite literally walking miles with no health left.

Yes you are. Again, my players would usually roleplay being an incredably effort. Depending on the exact circumstances, they may even call for a short/long rest before reaching town to rteflect their damage state, though that would be rare.


You say that it's a feature. How so? What is the advantage of your system over the 'gritty realism' rest system?

Its a compromise between the default rules and that. Maybe its because I got into D&D in 3.5, so I got used to the idea that natural healing sucks but spells come back in a day (yes I am aware that may have been a contributing factor to the martial caster imbalance of the ssytem, but I think the spells themselves probably contributed more). However, when the other players played 3.5, and despite prefering 5e they did agree that 3.5's hp recovery system was superior. For them. And evidently not other people on this thread. Who won't be playing in this game. Hint hint.

[strangebloke]

Its a compromise between the default rules and that. Maybe its because I got into D&D in 3.5, so I got used to the idea that natural healing sucks but spells come back in a day (yes I am aware that may have been a contributing factor to the martial caster imbalance of the ssytem, but I think the spells themselves probably contributed more)..
So you're literally don't this so that Nagical healing will be better than non magical.

Very well. This will achieve that goal. I have no idea why this is desirable. Make them both suck or neither, IMO.


However, when the other players played 3.5, and despite prefering 5e they did agree that 3.5's hp recovery system was superior. For them. And evidently not other people on this thread. Who won't be playing in this game. Hint hint.

If you all for criticism of your houserules that's what you're going to get. Passive aggressively whining about feedback you asked for is stupid.

[Boci]

If you all for criticism of your houserules that's what you're going to get. Passive aggressively whining about feedback you asked for is stupid.

I have edited 3/3 of the initial houserules on this thread, based on comments from posters on this thread. That would imply I listen to feedback given and use it when I find it beneficial. The fact that I am not listening to one piece feedback does not make me closed minded. It means I have judged, based on years of expirience with the HP system, that my initial thoughts on the matter in this thread were better suited for me and my players than the advice of strangers. If this offends you, don't give advise and then whine about me being narrow minded when I reject one thing said to me.

By all means tell me that HP can represent other stuff. But when I then respond and say I know but that doesn't work for me, isn't its reasonable to let it drop around the second you try and convince me your way is better, rather than insisting that no, I'd doing it wrong?


Very well. This will achieve that goal. I have no idea why this is desirable. Make them both suck or neither, IMO.

And if you were my player, I would listen to this feedback. I am being serious, I will check with the players and hear their thoughts on the matter. But I do find it a bit silly how utterly dismissive people on this thread have been towards the idea that I know what will work for a group I know better than they know what will work for a group they have never met.

[strangebloke]

And if you were my player, I would listen to this feedback. I am being serious, I will check with the players and hear their thoughts on the matter. But I do find it a bit silly how utterly dismissive people on this thread have been towards the idea that I know what will work for a group I know better than they know what will work for a group they have never met.

Look, none of this matters, really. You can treat hitpoints (narratively) as whatever. Blessings of the Gods. Luck. Morale. Meat. any combination of those. Whatever. It won't effect the mechanics. If you want to tweak the healing mechanics to something silly, fine, whatever. If your group likes this method, cool. It won't ruin your game or anything.

But here's the thing. You've heard that phrase, "the customer is always right?" It's total bull.

Your players can be wrong about what actually makes for a good, fun game for them, particularly in a case like this where biases are present. It honestly sounds to me as though you guys have a lot of nostalgia for pathfinder/3.5, and therefore prefer mechanics that are more recognizable, even if you've no real justification for it. The fact that you immediately default to "It's what my players want" is a major signal of that, IMO.

As a DM, it's your responsibility to tailor your game to your players, and sometimes that means not doing exactly what they ask. You have access to more information than they do, and you're putting more thought into the game than they are. Most players don't really put much more thought into underlying mechanics than a shrug and a "Sure, that sounds right." They aren't a completely reliable source for good decision making.

As an example, if I asked each of my players, "Would it be cool if you each started with super McAwesome Weapon?" They might be like, "Yeah, that sounds awesome." And it is awesome, but then four sessions in everyone gets bored because they're trouncing all the encounters and the regular loot I'm giving them is way less cool than their McAwesome starting gear. So I ramp up the difficulty, but it's sloppy and suddenly there's a TPK. Woops. Before I decided to give them the weapons, I should have considered my own ability to balance around and work with those weapons I gave them them.

As a community of feedback givers, it's our job to nosily point out that you might have more fun if you tried it this way. Individually, we're going to be objectively wrong or completely off-base a lot of the time, but that's why we're here, to learn and do better. If you're offended by that, don't be. I used to run HP as meat and my players liked it and that was cool, but running HP-as-morale ended up making my narration and overall gaming experience a lot better. I'm only arguing this with you because I want you to experience the improvements that I experienced.

[mephnick]

I allow humans to substitute up to 3 +1's for a skill, tool or language proficiency. Makes them quite strong and versatile.

[Boci]

As a community of feedback givers, it's our job to nosily point out that you might have more fun if you tried it this way. Individually, we're going to be objectively wrong or completely off-base a lot of the time, but that's why we're here, to learn and do better. If you're offended by that, don't be.

I'm not offended by being told something. I don't even mind it. I am bemused and then annoyed at being repeatedly told the same thing, multiple times by multiple posters with a shred of self-awareneness that they may be wrong and that the advice in general may be good but in reality will not even work for one group. But I'm still not offended.

I'm not even offended by the sheer ego required to see a thread where someone edits their house rules based on feedback yet be unable to leave sincerly without a parting shot about how I'm clearly not interested in feedback just because I ignored theres. But that's probably the closest thing in this thread that is to offending.

Maybe I'm wrong on this, its possible, but I don't find this last post genuine. You said the way I planned to handle the game was lame. You then ammended this to its sucks, IMO, a qualifier you missed the first time. Another poster, not you, insisted I had flawed line of thinking. All the while, not once did I say anyone was wrong for not running HP = physical wounds. What I see in your post if you realize how jerkish your attitude was in this thread and now trying to retroactivly justify. Maybe I wrong, I hope I am, but that's what I see in your post.


I allow humans to substitute up to 3 +1's for a skill, tool or language proficiency. Makes them quite strong and versatile.

That probably helps, but isn't a half-elf still better? They get +1 to any two stats, +2 charisma, 2 skill proficiencies, advantage on charm saves and immunity to sleep magic and dark vision.

A human by contrast, taking full advantage of this rule get +1 to any 3 stats, and 3 proficiencies. One more, and yes they could be a tool or a language, but is that realy worth darkvision and fey ancestry? I guess it depends on how the backgrounds are being played, with enough freedom you can use background to convert skill proficiencies into tools, but if you can only use them as presented in the book, such opportunities are limited. I think I also have a fluff problem with this. Half-elves are clearly the versatile race by default, making humans a little bit more versatile feels like a poor identity for the race, and weakens the half-elfs. Maybe I need to think about it more.

[Garfunion]

Human stats; going to be honest, why would I choose expertise in a single skill when I can gain proficiency in an ability stat for saves.

Many DM’s fail to take advantage of using the variant human to represent regional human sub-races.
Here are two examples.

Forest regional human(mobility feat)
•Ability Score Increase. Your Dexterity and Wisdom scores each increase by 1.
•Forest Folk. You have proficiency in the Survival skill.
•Fleet of Foot. Your base walking speed is 40 feet.
•Sure-Footed. When you use the Dash action, difficult terrain doesn’t cost you extra movement on that turn.
•Spring Attack. When you make a melee attack against a creature, you don’t provoke opportunity attacks from that creature for the rest of your turn, whether you hit or not.

Mountain regional human(tough feat)
•Ability Score Increase. Your Strength and Constitution scores each increase by 1.
•Daunting. You have proficiency in the Intimidation skill.
•Tough. Your hit point maximum increases by 2, and it increases by 2 every time you gain a level.

[mephnick]

That probably helps, but isn't a half-elf still better? They get +1 to any two stats, +2 charisma, 2 skill proficiencies, advantage on charm saves and immunity to sleep magic and dark vision.

Half elf is completely unbalanced and shouldnt be the design bar IMO, but yeah you could probably add something else. It's proven to be pretty popular at my table so eh.

[Boci]

Half elf is completely unbalanced and shouldnt be the design bar IMO, but yeah you could probably add something else. It's proven to be pretty popular at my table so eh.

Whilst that may be true, at least other races got things half-eleves didn;t? Are half-elves better than half-orcs? Maybe, but half-elves don't get relentless and savage crit. Are half elves better than dwarves? Maybe, but half-ellves don't get resistance and advantage against poison. ect. Feat variant humans, as much as I dislike them, are getting something half-elves humans. Unless you really, really need that extra skill/tool proficiency, default humans aren't getting anything half-eleves aren't. Its better than what we have, but I feel humans need something half-elves just can't get, to be a valid race in their own right.


Human stats; going to be honest, why would I choose expertise in a single skill when I can gain proficiency in an ability stat for saves.

Shoving fighter wants expertise on athletics? Cha based class wants expertise on persuasion? I dunno, maybe its weaker, but I think its a nice option to have for certain character concepts.

[sophontteks]

Half elves are probably the strongest race due to the spead, bonus skills, and darkvision. I rate them over V.humans because they don't get darkvision. V.humans sound great on paper until that v.human rogue realizes that sneaking isn't very effective whilst holding a torch.

[Boci]

Half elves are probably the strongest race due to the spead, bonus skills, and darkvision. I rate them over V.humans because they don't get darkvision. V.humans sound great on paper until that v.human rogue realizes that sneaking isn't very effective whilst holding a torch.

That might be true, but the v.human rogue is getting something that the half-elf rogue isn't. Crossbow master will give an extra chance for to get sa and generally boost their damage and allows them to overcome one of the big disadvantages of range. Are half-elves still better? Maybe, but oyu cannot call them stricktly better. As long as humans get something only humans get, even if it is weaker than what halfelves get, that still decent race design, assiming customization and indeviduality is the goal.

Now personally I don't want that one thing to be a feat, heace my houserule, but the point is, its not as bad if once race is more powerful than all the others, as long as each race gets its own thing.

[sophontteks]

That might be true, but the v.human rogue is getting something that the half-elf rogue isn't. Crossbow master will give an extra chance for to get sa and generally boost their damage and allows them to overcome one of the big disadvantages of range. Are half-elves still better? Maybe, but oyu cannot call them stricktly better. As long as humans get something only humans get, even if it is weaker than what halfelves get, that still decent race design, assiming customization and indeviduality is the goal.

Now personally I don't want that one thing to be a feat, heace my houserule, but the point is, its not as bad if once race is more powerful than all the others, as long as each race gets its own thing.
And the Half-elf is getting something the V'human isn't. Darkvision. Which allows them to overcome being at disadvantage in dim light.

[Boci]

And the Half-elf is getting something the V'human isn't. Darkvision. Which allows them to overcome being at disadvantage in dim light.

Which is good race design. Vumans get something half-elves don't, half-elves get something vumans don't. As long as that's true, it matters a bit less, though its not irrelevant, whether or not the two races are strickly equal, as long as each gets something the other doesn't.

My point was that fixing default humans by giving them extra proficiencies is likely going to result in them being stricktly worse than half-elves, which is bad race design. Even if humans are worse, as long as they get something half-eleves don't, the ability disaprity is not as bad.

Vuman's aren't a badly designed race, even if the half-elf is technically better. Default humans are a badly designed race, and I don't feel giving them extra poficioncies is enough to fix is. Its better than nothing, and if it works at your table that's all you need, but I'm personally looking for something a bit more unique than extra skill/tool proficiencies.

[daemonaetea]

For the change to healing, have you considered the longer duration rests variant in the DMG? Basically a short rest is now 8 hours, and a long rest is now a week. Means you can heal up moderate damage overnight, but severe injuries require a week off to recuperate, easily fluffed as medical treatment.

[Malifice]

Find Familiar does not allow you to dissmiss the familiar to a pocket dimension, it must always exist. A familiar may take the aid action, but to do so it must succeed on a DC: 10 check, adding your profiency to the roll. Even if they fail this check, they will however still allow a rogue to get SA.
Edit: Removed the second part, and will warn players that whilst passive familiars will likely be ignored in combat (but maybe order them back to avoid AoEs), familiars activly helping the PCs with aid/SA qualification will likely end up chomped/slshed/crushed.
?

There used to be a penalty if your familiar was killed.

I use the following rule:

''If your familiar is reduced to 0 HP, you suffer a level of exhaustion.''


http://dnd.schadenfreudestudios.com/1e%20familiar.png

[Honest Tiefling]

Vuman's aren't a badly designed race, even if the half-elf is technically better. Default humans are a badly designed race, and I don't feel giving them extra poficioncies is enough to fix is. Its better than nothing, and if it works at your table that's all you need, but I'm personally looking for something a bit more unique than extra skill/tool proficiencies.

Then some sort of Inspiration mechanic? Perhaps if they roll under a certain amount on the dice, (such as 1-2) they get to keep the inspiration point and use it again.

If humans aren't those crazy adaptable guys who can learn anything, what ARE they in your world? That might be a good starting point.

[Boci]

For the change to healing, have you considered the longer duration rests variant in the DMG? Basically a short rest is now 8 hours, and a long rest is now a week. Means you can heal up moderate damage overnight, but severe injuries require a week off to recuperate, easily fluffed as medical treatment.

Its a compromise. We don't like waiting a week for things to come back, especially spells, but 8 hours is too much for HP.


There used to be a penalty if your familiar was killed.

I use the following rule:

''If your familiar is reduced to 0 HP, you suffer a level of exhaustion.''

I seem to recall the penalty use to be worse, but this is something to consider. Players may actually like this, as it also gives some risk for enemies using their familiar in battle.


Then some sort of Inspiration mechanic? Perhaps if they roll under a certain amount on the dice, (such as 1-2) they get to keep the inspiration point and use it again.

If humans aren't those crazy adaptable guys who can learn anything, what ARE they in your world? That might be a good starting point.

Humans are survivors was certain an idea I had, hence profifiency to a save of their choice. Inspiration could work as well, though as inspiration is for a d20, keeping it when you roll a 1 or 2 isn't too helpful, plus inspiration gives advantage, you usually don't check which is the extra die for that. Maybe is neither roll is above 10 they keep their inspiration point? Or they roll 3 dice when using inspiration, elven accuracy style?

[thoroughlyS]

Humans are survivors
Human
Ability Score Increase. Your ability scores each increase by 1.
Age. Humans reach adulthood in their late teens and live less than a century.
Alignment. Humans tend toward no particular alignment. The best and the worst are found among them.
Size. Humans vary widely in height and build, from barely 5 feet to well over 6 feet tall. Regardless of your position in that range, your size is Medium.
Speed. Your base walking speed is 30 feet.
Resolute. You have proficiency in death saving throws.
Tenacity. When you are at 0 hit points and become stabilized, you can gain temporary hit points equal to 1d8 plus your level. You cannot use this feature again until you complete a long rest.
Skills. You gain proficiency in one skill of your choice.
Languages. You can speak, read, and write Common and one extra language of your choice. Humans typically learn the languages of other peoples they deal with, including obscure dialects. They are fond of sprinkling their speech with words borrowed from other tongues: Orc curses, Elvish musical expressions, Dwarvish military phrases, and so on.

Variant Human
Ability Score Increase. Two different ability scores of your choice increase by 1.
Age. Humans reach adulthood in their late teens and live less than a century.
Alignment. Humans tend toward no particular alignment. The best and the worst are found among them.
Size. Humans vary widely in height and build, from barely 5 feet to well over 6 feet tall. Regardless of your position in that range, your size is Medium.
Speed. Your base walking speed is 30 feet.
Feat. You gain one feat of your choice. This feat must increase an ability score by 1 or have an ability score prerequisite.
Skills. You gain proficiency in one skill of your choice.
Languages. You can speak, read, and write Common and one extra language of your choice. Humans typically learn the languages of other peoples they deal with, including obscure dialects. They are fond of sprinkling their speech with words borrowed from other tongues: Orc curses, Elvish musical expressions, Dwarvish military phrases, and so on.

[Boci]

Human
Ability Score Increase. Your ability scores each increase by 1.
Age. Humans reach adulthood in their late teens and live less than a century.
Alignment. Humans tend toward no particular alignment. The best and the worst are found among them.
Size. Humans vary widely in height and build, from barely 5 feet to well over 6 feet tall. Regardless of your position in that range, your size is Medium.
Speed. Your base walking speed is 30 feet.
Resolute. You have proficiency in death saving throws.
Tenacity. When you are at 0 hit points and become stabilized, you can gain temporary hit points equal to 1d8 plus your level. You cannot use this feature again until you complete a long rest.
Skills. You gain proficiency in one skill of your choice.
Languages. You can speak, read, and write Common and one extra language of your choice. Humans typically learn the languages of other peoples they deal with, including obscure dialects. They are fond of sprinkling their speech with words borrowed from other tongues: Orc curses, Elvish musical expressions, Dwarvish military phrases, and so on.

Variant Human
Ability Score Increase. Two different ability scores of your choice increase by 1.
Age. Humans reach adulthood in their late teens and live less than a century.
Alignment. Humans tend toward no particular alignment. The best and the worst are found among them.
Size. Humans vary widely in height and build, from barely 5 feet to well over 6 feet tall. Regardless of your position in that range, your size is Medium.
Speed. Your base walking speed is 30 feet.
Feat. You gain one feat of your choice. This feat must increase an ability score by 1, or have an ability score prerequisite.
Skills. You gain proficiency in one skill of your choice.
Languages. You can speak, read, and write Common and one extra language of your choice. Humans typically learn the languages of other peoples they deal with, including obscure dialects. They are fond of sprinkling their speech with words borrowed from other tongues: Orc curses, Elvish musical expressions, Dwarvish military phrases, and so on.

I like the first one, everything fits and I feel it works with the half-elf, rather than the two stepping oin eachothers toes. The second one, its good, but the wording is convoluted. Not a mechanical problem, just a matter of elegance. I might nix it, humansdon't need a second racial option, and the first one should fix the mechanical problems with the default human.

[thoroughlyS]

The second one, its good, but the wording is convoluted. Not a mechanical problem, just a matter of elegance.
The restriction is one sentence of only two clauses. It is the simplest way I can think of to restrict players from choosing things like Great Weapon Master or War Caster at 1st level. Listing individual feats (either black-listing or white-listing) would be inelegant.

[Boci]

The restriction is one sentence of only two clauses. It is the simplest way I can think of to restrict players from choosing things like Great Weapon Master or War Caster at 1st level. Listing individual feats (either black-listing or white-listing) would be inelegant.

It is the simplest way yes, but I still think its inelegent. There's no good wayI can think of to restrict how they can take feats.