Way of the Wave (5e DnD homebrew monastic tradition)

[Chibachiva]

Hi! Here's the link to my monastic tradition. (5e DnD homebrew)

http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/SkWRtVHFVG

My main idea was to create a type of monk filling the role of a striker having a few tools to survive the frontline and able to apply some crowd control.

This is my second version of the previously named Way of the Vengeful Wave, to which I made several adjustments. I must thank my DM Daniel Leroux for his help. Very special thanks to Lalliman and Composer99 for their phrasing advices!!

I welcome every constructive comments, as it is the main reason I'm posting this here. So, if you have any question, go ahead! And if you test it, let me know what you found out!

[JNAProductions]

Know Yourself, Know Your Enemy is OP as hell. Even at level 3, Wis Mod per short rest is basically once per encounter, so you just get +1 or more to-hit and AC against the scariest-looking enemy. Every fight. And that would probably be okay, by itself-except you can now dodge as a bonus action. For free.

White Crane isn't bad-a touch powerful, maybe, but not overly so. But it relies on Patient Defense being free, which is a no-go.

I'd make Stillness through movement four ki, probably. Otherwise fine.

Vengeful Wave could probably be a touch more expensive too.

[Lalliman]

Oof yeah, casually tossing the free Patient Defence at the end of Know Yourself is a big deal. The monk class only gets a relatively small amount of power from its archetype, so Know Yourself is definitely powerful enough without that.

The rest seems good, though it's a bit unfortunate that White Crane would be hard to trigger without the free Patient Defence. You could perhaps alter it to say that you can use it against the target of Know Yourself, even if you aren't dodging. It would be a bit tricky to word, but simply adding something like "You don't need to be benefiting from Patient Defence if the attacking creature is the target of your Know Yourself, Know Your Enemy feature." would work. Then again, this is likely to push it into overpowered territory. As I said, monks just don't get a lot of power from their archetypes.

Another option would be to keep White Crane as is, but change Know Yourself to allow a special version of Patient Defence that is free but only works against one chosen target. Though that might take out the more interesting considerations of Know Yourself.

Just some thoughts. Homebrewing monks is tough because of the limited design space.

[JNAProductions]

I'd be against allowing even a single-target dodge for free. Monks are already some of the best in 1v1s, due to Stunning Strike. Add on the ability to impose disadvantage on their attack rolls... Not even a Paladin could stand against that.

[Chibachiva]

Hey everyone!
Thanks for the feedback!
To JNAProductions : Being on the frontline is risky business. I am currently playing this subclass with my DM and I can tell you I'm getting my ass kicked (pardon the language). I can't count the number of times my HP has dropped below 5, even though I'm extra careful and my character has 16 AC (which isn't bad) as a level 3 character. Maybe I'm playing the class wrong, have a suckish luck or should rely more on hit-and-run tactics, but still, having only a d8 is rough for a starting frontline character, and this is why it relies so much on pumping the AC for this subclass. A monk is more agile than many and should be better at reading attacks and avoid being hit.

Moreover, a choice has to be made between playing aggressive (and attack with the martial art or flurry of blows feature) or play defensive (with patient defence or disengaging, the last one being free for a rogue, mind you). I have a hard time seeing how this defensive feature would be OP, so could you explain more precisely in what way it is?

That said, I'll give some thoughts to put back the price of 1 ki on the Patient Defence ability. Someone on Reddit mentioned it could also be read as a +2 bonus to AC starting at level 3, which wasn't my intention. I'll probably work on the phrasing.

About Stillness and Vengeful, I compared it to spells other classes would get at this level and the damage that would occur, which would, at least I think, make it somewhat balanced. I also took in account the cost for other subclasses abilities. Take Way of the Open Hand and it's Quivering Palm feature, reducing the target's health to 0 whenever you feel like it for 3 ki points.

About imposing disadvantage, other subclasses (Wizard subclasses at that!) offer it (some barbarians subclasses, for example), while others (I'm thinking of Samurai or Reckless attack of the barbarian) give you advantage on attacks. I do not think it is inherently OP to give advantage, as long as there is a trade off of equal value along the line.

To Lalliman :
Hi again Lalliman! I'd be curious to hear more about your idea of changing Know Yourself to make it only to one target along with patient defence. In what way would it make it less powerful? Home brewing monks is indeed quite complicated, as I'm finding out XD.
Also, do you know of a way I could test those abilities and know if they are balanced or not? A fictional fight or something along the line?

Anyway, thanks again to both of you for the feedback.
I look forward to your replies!

[Chibachiva]

Suggestion :
For Know Yourself, instead of being free, what if it was a check the player had to make? Wisdom (Insight) against Charisma (Deception) check. The idea is not mine, but was taken from HalfMetalJacket's Way of the Empty Mind and Inquisitive Rogue Archetype. It would probably go something like that :
--------------
After studying your adversary's techniques and observing the way they think, you are able to better anticipate their moves, thus increasing your ability to avoid them.

Once per turn and as a free action, you choose a creature which isn't incapacitated, make a Wisdom (Insight) check against the target's Charisma (Deception) check. On a success, you gain a +1 bonus to AC and increasing your Ki DC by 1 against this single foe. The effect ends early if you die or are incapacitated. Any amount gained is lost whenever you choose a new creature.

You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Wisdom modifier and regain all expended uses of it whenever you complete a short or long rest. This bonus can add up to +1 at level 3, +2 at level 6 and +3 at level 11, lasting for 1 minute. This ability's duration is refreshed on use.
--------------
I could then add at level 6 pretty much the Inquisitive Rogue's Ear for Deceit ability, making it so whenever the monk uses it's Know Yourself ability and making an insight check, it can treat a roll of 7 or lower as an 8. The thing is, I don't want to steal away ideas from others, so, still not sure about this...

What say you?

[Lalliman]

Hi again Lalliman! I'd be curious to hear more about your idea of changing Know Yourself to make it only to one target along with patient defence. In what way would it make it less powerful? Home brewing monks is indeed quite complicated, as I'm finding out XD.
I simply meant that you leave the normal Patient Defence as is, and provide an alternate version that is free, but only one chosen target gets disadvantage on attacks against you. Naturally, improving your defence against one enemy is weaker than against all enemies. That said, I have a more well-considered suggestion at the end of my rambling wall of text below.


Also, do you know of a way I could test those abilities and know if they are balanced or not? A fictional fight or something along the line?
I wish I did, but it's tough for monks. You can't just compare DPS like you would with a fighter, since a monk has more options, more moving parts and is more reliant on resource expenditure. Aside from actual playtesting, you pretty much just have to weigh the general benefits of the class in your head, i.e. "The normal monk has A and B, and my monk has C and D. Are these features equally valuable when competently employed under expected circumstances?"


Suggestion: For Know Yourself, instead of being free, what if it was a check the player had to make? Wisdom (Insight) against Charisma (Deception) check.
Ultimately, this is not the part of the feature that is problematic, so nerfing that won't do so much. The real problem, I think, is that free Patient Defence is both technically too powerful, while not doing enough to get the monk into the role you want. Once again, see the rant.


Moreover, a choice has to be made between playing aggressive (and attack with the martial art or flurry of blows feature) or play defensive (with patient defence or disengaging, the last one being free for a rogue, mind you). I have a hard time seeing how this defensive feature would be OP, so could you explain more precisely in what way it is?
I don't have strong evidence to back this up, since I don't see monks in action that often, but I would agree that free Patient Defence isn't quite as earth-shattering as JNAP considers it. You sacrifice half to one third of your base damage to use it, and you lose the option to FoB. Cutting your offence in half to double your defence seems like an obviously fair trade, especially since the monk has so little margin of error in terms of getting hit. It's not just the d8 hit die that makes you fragile, but also the fact that you can't possibly afford to put more than a 14 into your Con.

So I agree that free Patient Defence can work, in theory. In practice, there's some other considerations to take into account. The big problem is that, regardless of how fair dodging as a bonus action is on paper, the monk design space doesn't accommodate such a feature. It's almost undeniable that the ability to activate Patient Defence as a bonus action is more powerful than the Open Hand's occasional rider effect, or the Shadow's ability to cast a few specific spells for ki points, especially if the other half of Know Thyself is included. The fact that you're still struggling on the front line is not because bonus action dodge is not a powerful ability, it's because you're still ultimately a monk, a class that was never meant to be on the front line. If you were to keep playing this class as a normal monk, with free Patient Defence as one of the tools in your toolbox, I think you would experience a considerable power boost compared to a normal monk. As is, you're kind of putting a fedora on a monkey and trying fruitlessly to pass it off as a human, instead of stepping back and saying "damn, that's a classy monkey". If that metaphor makes any sense.

Another issue that makes this hard to balance is that Know Yourself doesn't follow the normal format for a 3rd level ability. The 3rd level abilities of the other core traditions provide features that directly or indirectly cost ki. Know Yourself does not cost ki in any way, and actually provides a benefit that will greatly decrease your ki expenditure. Any round in which you use free Patient Defence is one in which you don't spend ki to FoB, Dash or Disengage, thus leaving you with only one feature (at least until you get White Crane) to spend your ki on: Stunning Strike. This means that the Wave monk will be encouraged even more strongly to use the monk's most annoying and overused feature. Which... I don't know if it's imbalanced, but it's certainly unfortunate.

So yeah, both these problems come down to the monk having very little design space, both because the core class is very firmly settled into its gameplay niche (involving hit and run tactics and lots of Stunning Strikes), and because the subclass features are of such minor power compared to those of other classes. I frankly think this is a failure on WotC's end, I really wish they'd revise the monk like they revised the ranger, toning down the prevalence of Stunning Strike and providing the class more flexibility.

But since that's not likely to happen any time soon, we'll have to work with the restrictions. And I think the best (only?) way to design a monk that escapes the usual gameplay niche is by providing new features that compete with the the core features that dictate the monk's normal niche, rather than existing side by side with them. The current version of Know Thyself doesn't do that: it provides one benefit that can be used side by side with the normal hit and run + Stunning Strike tactics, and another that broadens your options but doesn't really steer you away from the aforementioned approach. (White Crane does provide more incentive to change your play style, but 6th level is halfway through the campaign for most people, it's too late to get such a defining feature.)

So basically my thought is: Can we, instead of giving a free defensive feature that is easily usable with the default play style, provide a superior defensive feature that costs ki? Now, Open Hand Technique basically provides a superior version of FoB, thus encouraging you to use that more. By extension, we could give a superior version of Patient Defense.

Imagine that the 3rd level feature was this: Whenever you are benefiting from Patient Defence and a creature within 5 feet misses you with an attack, you can use your reaction to make an unarmed strike against that creature.

Similar stuff as before, but the usage is very different. You need to spend ki to dodge, like anyone else, but your dodge is a much more efficient use of your resources because you get a pretty good chance to also get an extra attack, thus putting your damage output back to where it would have been if you'd simply used your bonus action for the Martial Arts bonus attack. Still potentially a very powerful feature, but I think the power is partially balanced out by the fact that it relies on using a tactic that would normally be suboptimal, plus it's less open to Stunning Strike spamming because using it eats into your ki pool. AND it allows what is arguably the core mechanic of this subclass to be functional right from level 3.

From there, you could alter the 6th level feature to add the knockdown or push back rider to the reaction attack, as well as add the option to spend extra ki to make the counterattack without expending your reaction. As for the AC and DC (heh, like the band) increasing part of Know Yourself, you could move that up to a higher level feature if you really like it, or you could toss it. As previously said, I'm afraid the monk just doesn't have enough design space to accommodate that feature in addition to the others. Unless, perhaps, you attach a ki cost somehow.

And that was my overly-long rambling suggestion. Let me know if it's a sensible one or if the dank heat of spring is making me hallucinate.

[Chibachiva]

This overly-long rambling suggestion, as you said, is absolutely fantastic! I'm kinda blown away right now!

First of all, I must say that I really like your first idea of a modified version of Patient Defense and would probably provide a nice quick fix to the subclass and keeping the main theme ideas. I was actually thinking of splitting the subclass into two, each of them having their own theme, one being water-bending and the other, something like a taichi/kung fu feeling to it.

I'll keep in mind what you said about weighing the capacities and comparing them to other subclasses of the monk. Thanks for the idea!

Great analysis, by the way! The reasoning is pretty much flawless!
I laughed hard at the metaphor (and had to look up what is a fedora) :smallbiggrin:

The idea of putting back the price tag on Patient Defense makes more sense now, whenever it is compared to FoB in this way. I also like the idea of having an early access to the main idea of the subclass, as you said!

I was thinking I'd leave the rider effect at level 3, for simplicity and the whole core idea. However, WotOH gets a rider effect and one more attack for 1 ki at level 3 and well, WotW (Way of the Wave), gets an advantage over Dexterity saving throws, plus enemies attack at disadvantage (I'm trying to apply what you told me before). Therefore, like you said, that would be plenty enough for level 3 and we could simply put the rider effect at level 6 instead. I took away the progression, as the ki points kept adding up in a weird wa, thus making too complicated.
It would look like this :

White Crane Spreads its Wings
You have learned to take advantage of your opponents' mistakes. Beginning at 3th level, whenever you are benefiting from your Patient Defence feature, if a creature within 5 feet of you misses you with a melee weapon attack, you can use your reaction to make an unarmed strike targeting the triggering creature.

At level 6, this ability improves. Provided your unarmed strike hits, you can choose to apply one of the following effects:
The target must succeed on a Dexterity saving throw or be knocked prone.
The target must succeed on a Strength saving throw or be pushed 15 feet away from you.

Then at level 6, I'd put the Know Yourself ability, but I'd make it a bonus action instead of a free action. After checking other "marking" features like the curse of the Warlock Hexblade and the mark of the Fighter Cavalier, they're pretty much all considered bonus actions. I'm still wondering about the number of uses per short rest. 3 to 5 times per short rest seems enough and forces the monk to think about what's ahead. Then again, that depends on what type of party the monk is in. If it relies on long rests more than short rests... I think it'll be fine.

After studying your adversary's techniques and observing the way they think, you are able to better anticipate their moves, thus increasing your ability to avoid them. Once per turn and as a bonus action, you choose a creature, gaining a +1 bonus to AC and increasing your Ki DC by 1 against this single foe. The effect ends early if you die or are incapacitated. Any amount gained is lost whenever you choose a new creature.
You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Wisdom modifier and regain all expended uses of it whenever you complete a short or long rest. This bonus can only add up to +1 bonus at level 6, +2 at level 11 and +3 at level 17, lasting for 1 minute. This ability's duration is refreshed on use.

Level 17 could be something else than a friggin' wave. Even though it makes sense with the theme, it doesn't really fit with the feeling of the subclass, which isn't really about magic. I think I'd put back the multiple counter attacks, this time for free, in the same way the Drunken Master gets his at the same level. I'm tempted to add a little bit more however.
Something like that :

At level 17, you can now make three unarmed strikes, each against a separate triggering attack, whenever you use the Patient Defense feature. Moreover, having studied your adversaries and their techniques plays to your advantage. You can now add your Wisdom modifier whenever you roll for an attack or for damage while using your Martial Arts die.

I'll have to go for now! See you soon!

[Lalliman]

I'm glad that it was helpful! Do let me know how it goes in playtesting.


After studying your adversary's techniques and observing the way they think, you are able to better anticipate their moves, thus increasing your ability to avoid them. Once per turn and as a bonus action, you choose a creature, gaining a +1 bonus to AC and increasing your Ki DC by 1 against this single foe. The effect ends early if you die or are incapacitated. Any amount gained is lost whenever you choose a new creature.
You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Wisdom modifier and regain all expended uses of it whenever you complete a short or long rest. This bonus can only add up to +1 bonus at level 6, +2 at level 11 and +3 at level 17, lasting for 1 minute. This ability's duration is refreshed on use.
Uses equal to your Wis mod per short rest indeed seems fine, since the real cost is the use of your bonus action. I might perhaps add a note saying that you have to be in initiative to use it, since that both makes sense (you have to see the target fight) and prevents people from racking up the bonus before combat starts.


At level 17, you can now make three unarmed strikes, each against a separate triggering attack, whenever you use the Patient Defense feature. Moreover, having studied your adversaries and their techniques plays to your advantage. You can now add your Wisdom modifier whenever you roll for an attack or for damage while using your Martial Arts die.
I know what you mean, but this isn't very clearly worded. To avoid confusion on how or when the reaction is spent, I would phrase it as:

Starting at 17th level, when you spend your reaction to make a counterattack with White Crane Spreads Its Wings, you enter a reactive stance. Until the start of your next turn, you can make up to two more counterattacks without spending a reaction, each against a separate triggering attack.

A little more complicated, but it's basically the same thing with less chance to misinterpret the specifics.

As for the second part, adding your Wis mod to every single attack is ludicrous. Because mind you, weapons can also use your Martial Arts die if it's higher than their normal damage die. Balance is pretty roughshod at 17th level, but even so I'd either limit this to one attack per round, or attach a ki cost to it.

[Chibachiva]

Thanks again for the phrasing! There's no doubt yours is much clearer XD

Yeah, I probably went waaaaay overboard with the Wisdom modifier:smallbiggrin:. The revised Ranger gets a similar bonus at level 20, I think, but only once per turn (just like you said) and only on either an attack roll or a damage roll. I'd like to see a damage boost and a ki cost attached to it would definitely make sense. I'll have to check if there are similar effects in some spells, it could be a source of inspiration and help me making it more balanced.

There's Elemental Weapon, a paladin spell that can be cast at 5th level, giving a +2 bonus to attack roll and +2d4 of elemental damage (cold, fire or lightning, etc). It is a concentration spell, lasting 1 hour. Here's my reasoning in order to fix the ki price. Normally, as per the Way of Shadow subclass, it'd be 1 ki for each spell level, therefore making it 5 ki points for an Elemental Weapon equivalent. However, I'd take away the duration, making available for one minute, thus decreasing the price (?). On the other side, I'd also like to take away the concentration part, since being on the front line while casting spells is pretty hard (even though the monk would have proficiency with Constitution saving throws, at this point...). Taking in account the WotOH level 17 feature is 3 ki points, I'd probably make it the same for that feature, costing a bonus action (the classic spell being an action to cast).

Anyway, that's the first spell I found, so there could be many other better options/ideas waiting to be found. Pretty straight forward however, and not too strong (at least, I think).

(Insert Martial Art Related Name Here)
Starting at 17th level, when you spend your reaction to make a counterattack with White Crane Spreads Its Wings, you enter a reactive stance. Until the start of your next turn, you can make up to two more counterattacks without spending a reaction, each against a separate triggering attack.
Moreover, you are now able to manifest your ki through your weapons. As a bonus action, you can now spend 3 ki points to gain a +2 bonus to attack rolls, dealing an extra 2d4 cold damage. This feature lasts for one minute.

[Lalliman]

(Insert Martial Art Related Name Here)
Starting at 17th level, when you spend your reaction to make a counterattack with White Crane Spreads Its Wings, you enter a reactive stance. Until the start of your next turn, you can make up to two more counterattacks without spending a reaction, each against a separate triggering attack.
Moreover, you are now able to manifest your ki through your weapons. As a bonus action, you can now spend 3 ki points to gain a +2 bonus to attack rolls, dealing an extra 2d4 cold damage. This feature lasts for one minute.
Very late response, but this seems perfectly good. It's a lot cheaper than Elemental Weapon in terms of resource and action cost, but that balances out against the opportunity cost: the paladin gets access to all seven 5th level spells on their list plus however many lower-level spells can be upcast to 5th level, and the monk gets this as their only option.

As for a martial-artsy name: Vengeful Tide? A tide consists of multiple waves, just as this feature allows multiple counterattacks. Or, to tap into the cold damage component: Frigid Tide, Arctic Tide or Boreal tide.

[Chibachiva]

Oouuuh! I really like Boreal Tide! It took a while, but it seems like I finally got the hang of a balanced ability XD I'll put all the changes in a new version either today or tomorrow! Thanks again for all that you've done Lalliman, I'll make sure your name is visible in the credits!

[Chibachiva]

There we go! An updated version with the changes mentioned earlier, which are :
a) White Crane feature at level 3, the rider effect only coming at 6th level.
b) Patient Defense has a normal ki cost (1 ki).
c) Know yourself comes at level 6, costs a bonus action and a use, the number of which is determined by your Wisdom modifier and scales at later levels.
d) Vengeful Wave is changed to Vengeful Tide, expanding the total number of counters to a missed attack to 3. Moreover, the monk can spend ki points to get a bonus to attack rolls and an extra 2d4 force damage.

http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/SkWRtVHFVG

If anyone tries it, let me know! I'd be happy to hear about it and how it went!