Daring Outlaw by level 3?

[BloodfeudKobold]

So I am making a Rogue/Swashbuckler. Original, I know. :smalltongue:

My one hang-up is that I qualify for Daring Outlaw, one of my favorite (and arguably strongest) parts of the build at level 4, just in time to not have access to a new feat for two more levels.

If there was a way to get one extra sneak attack die between one level of Rogue and two levels of Swashbuckler, I could get it at level 3 instead, and considering the next feat I'm taking is Fearful Presence (which I qualify for at the earliest at level six), if I can't get Daring Outlaw until level 6, I can't get Fearful Presence until 9th level.

I've been searching for a way and have found nothing useful, but figured I might as well ask. Restrictions are no BoVD or BoED, Hafling, only levels of Rogue and Swashbukcler, and not evil-aligned. Short of that, I would give anything to make this work. Any ideas?

[Crake]

I'm not aware of any way to get another d6 of sneak attack without actually taking a level in something. My suggestion would be to instead look for a way to get a bonus feat, or just to pay for a dark chaos shuffle at level 6 to swap out your third level feat for daring outlaw. Paying for the spellcasting services to have that done will cost you 4,900gp, so ask yourself if you're willing to pay for that (and obviously, make sure the DM is on board too)

[thethird]

Halfling rogue substitution lvl in races of the wild

[Telonius]

Anything, eh? How about your soul? The Faustian Pacts section of Fiendish Codex 2 list an additional Feat as one of the rewards.

... Aw, just saw "non evil." Well, that does limit things. Are Flaws available? If your DM counts Assassin's Stance as qualifying, you could get that through Martial Study/Martial Stance. If you're going Strongheart Halfling that could make it easier, too.

[ViperMagnum357]

Nothing comes to mind without Epic shenanigans or feats, not even grabbing a race with natural sneak attack. I can think of 2 of those with low enough LA to buy off, the Kapak and Venom Draconians from Dragonlance, but both still come with 2 Dragon RHD and 2 LA, so no full buyoff until ECL 9 even if you energy drain the RHD. And, of course, not halfing. And no, Halfing Racial Substitution will not work.

Only way I can think of is dipping levels in another class like Spellthief or Sneak Attack Fighter, but that pushes Grace to level 4 minimum. Dunno if there is a way to do what you want-Daring Outlaw looks like it was specifically built to prevent entry before level 4; not sure there is a way around that without using the generic class variant from UA with a permissive DM.

[Nifft]

If your DM counts Assassin's Stance as qualifying, you could get that through Martial Study/Martial Stance.

... at level 5 as a single-class Swordsage, or level 10 as a Rogue / Swashbuckler.

Not really useful if the PC is stuck at level 4.

[Troacctid]

Just go dragonborn at level 4 and make sure it causes you to lose one of your feats. Then you can replace it with Daring Outlaw.

[Rebel7284]

Rogue's Vest from DMG2 page 271 would work, but at 29,600 GP is a bit out of reach at level 3. If you can borrow or lease one while leveling up, you can give it back right after as you would self-qualify.

[Nifft]

Rogue's Vest from DMG2 page 271 would work, but at 29,600 GP is a bit out of reach at level 3. If you can borrow or lease one while leveling up, you can give it back right after as you would self-qualify.

Presumably the lender has a vested interest in your growth.

[ben-zayb]

Check with your DM if Halfling Rogue Substitution Level would qualify you for Daring Outlaw, as that technically gives you +1d6 Sneak Attack +1d6 Ranged Sneak Attack = +2d6 damage bonus in total on certain attacks.

[Darrin]

Race: Silverbrow Human.
Stub: Rogue 1/Swashbuckler 2.
Feats: Dragonfire Strike (Dragon Magic), {Open}.

This kicks your SA damage up to 2d6, although it also turns it into [fire] damage.


Just go dragonborn at level 4 and make sure it causes you to lose one of your feats. Then you can replace it with Daring Outlaw.

This should work. Put one skill rank in Ride and take Mounted Combat. As a human, you lose some skill points, so make sure you lose that rank in Ride and you can swap Mounted Combat with something else. Instead of losing your human bonus feat, the rules on page 10 of RotD state that you can lose any other bonus feat instead. This includes Light Armor Proficiency, which you gain as a bonus feat from Rogue (Swashies are already proficient in light armor). If you're dipping Sneak Attack Fighter 1 (Unearthed Arcana) for the Hit-and-Run ACF (Drow of the Underdark), then you can lose Shield Proficiency or Medium Armor Proficiency instead. You can also trade one of your existing feats for Dragon Tail or Dragon Wings.

[Arkain]

Have you asked your GM if you can "postpone" the feat for the reasons you've already detailed to us or if you can retrain the level 3 feat once you qualify at level 4?

[Nifft]

Just go dragonborn at level 4 and make sure it causes you to lose one of your feats. Then you can replace it with Daring Outlaw.

That's brilliant. I could see this also helping Anima Mage early entry.


Race: Silverbrow Human.
Stub: Rogue 1/Swashbuckler 2.
Feats: Dragonfire Strike (Dragon Magic), {Open}.

This kicks your SA damage up to 2d6, although it also turns it into [fire] damage.

Glimmerskin Halfling would allow you to take the Halfling Rogue racial sub level (for +2d6 ranged sneak attack) and also Dragonfire Strike at level 1.

[Troacctid]

That's brilliant. I could see this also helping Anima Mage early entry.
Yeah, the dragonborn trick is my go-to for this sort of thing. It's a bit sticky with a halfling—not a lot of feats you can disqualify yourself from. But that's what Slayer of Dragons is for. You just need to get those 4 ranks in Religion. Blow a feat for that and then swap that feat out for Dragon Wings or Dragon Tail.

[Nifft]

Yeah, the dragonborn trick is my go-to for this sort of thing. It's a bit sticky with a halfling—not a lot of feats you can disqualify yourself from. But that's what Slayer of Dragons is for. You just need to get those 4 ranks in Religion. Blow a feat for that and then swap that feat out for Dragon Wings or Dragon Tail.

Wouldn't some Halfling-only feat suffice?

Yondalla's Sense (Races of the Wild) has no prereq other than Halfling, for example.


Hmm, in terms of disqualification, I don't see anything about what happens to already paid-for skill ranks when you lose Able Learner.

[Jowgen]

Bracers of the Hunter (secrets of Xen'drik) cost 8500 gp and give +1d6 SA (also +2 Init and +5 Hide). Still likely out of the range of what you can finagle, but more reasonable than the Rogue's Vest at least.

Alternativly, you could try to convince your DM that someone cast Hunters Eye on you the very round you level up.

[Arkain]

Alternativly, you could try to convince your DM that someone cast Hunters Eye on you the very round you level up.

A scroll would be necessary, as it's personal range only (unless you can get a tricked out caster to do it, but at that point you might as well pay for something like Psychic Reformation). This does also assume that a level up happens during a specific single round, which not everyone may agree to.
... actually, are psionics an option? In that case paying for a Psychic Reformation is probably one of the better solutions.

[zlefin]

while it doesn't get it at lvl 3; you could ask if you could use the retraining rules once you're lvl 4 to change whatever feat you took at 3 to daring outlaw.

And I'd echo the other person who said there's a fair chance a dm would let you simply hold off taking any feat at 3 so you could take it at 4 when you can use it, though I don't think there's any RAW support for such.

[Darrin]

Wouldn't some Halfling-only feat suffice?

Yondalla's Sense (Races of the Wild) has no prereq other than Halfling, for example.


You're still a Halfling after the Ritual of Rebirth, so I don't think this would work.

Slayer of Dragons (Dragon Magic p. 22) works because one of the prereqs is "must not be of
the dragonblood subtype". When you become dragonborn, you no longer qualify for the feat. However, one of the other prereqs is 4 ranks in Knowledge (religion), so you're probably going to want to make sure that's a class skill for something.

If you're human who gets extra skill points, then any feat that requires a certain number of skill points should work. Mounted Combat requires Ride 1 (although if I've got a base class with Ride as a class skill, I usually swap it for Tumble via the Skilled City Dweller ACF). I used Sailor's Balance (Stormwrack) before in an Iron Chef entry... actually I was a little surprised no one called me on it.



Hmm, in terms of disqualification, I don't see anything about what happens to already paid-for skill ranks when you lose Able Learner.

Able Learner only takes effect when you're actually purchasing skill ranks, so... once the skill ranks are in place, I would think that's water under the bridge. You actually had the feat when those ranks were purchased, so I don't see why you'd have to recalculate your ranks.

Open-Minded, however... I'd probably just handwave it away and keep your current ranks as-is, but I could see some peope arguing that you'd have to deduct 5 skill points.

If you have to have a particular feat at a certain level, there are a few ways to do that outside of Dragonborn of Bahamut. If you're a half-elf, for example, dipping Half-Elf Paragon gets you a bonus feat. The other easy way to do that is to take Skill Focus (Diplomacy), and then dip Marshall (Miniatures Handbook) for a level.

[WhamBamSam]

Becoming Dragonborn reduces your Dex, and sets your age category to adult, which can reduce mental ability scores if you were previously middle aged or older. There are plenty of feats that you can disqualify yourself from in this way.

[cartejos]

Generic Warrior 1/Swashbuckler 2/Feat Rogue X

Generic Warrior can pick up the 2d6 Sneak Attack, Swashbuckler grabs Grace +1, and Feat Rogue arguably gains feats and Sneak Attack.

Counters: Some DM's may not allow the generic classes from UA, and some still will restrict access to some of the "specific" feats granted to the generic classes.
They may also not allow Feat Rogue to advance Sneak Attack and Fighter Feats, though they should.
Finally, I do believe that the Swashbuckler/Rogue sneak attack will subsume the Warriors Sneak Attack rather than stacking, thus you won't get 3d6 sneak attack until GenWar1/Swash 2/Rog 3. The Generic Warrior will shotgun you to the front, but turn into a wasted level later, retraining rules might fix that depending.

[Nifft]

You're still a Halfling after the Ritual of Rebirth, so I don't think this would work. Derp! I saw that they retained pervious subtypes, but I'd missed that they were also considered a member of their previous race.

Thanks.