May UA's Up: Ever Wanted To Be Part Horse?

[Mana Opal]

This month's UA is on Centuars and Minotaurs, it seems. Let's see how these beasties ar planned to act (and how the cowfolk have changed from last time), shall we?

UA: dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/centaurs-and-minotaurs

(Apparently, I don't have a high enough post count to actually link yet)

[PhoenixPhyre]

This month's UA is on Centuars and Minotaurs, it seems. Let's see how these beasties ar planned to act (and how the cowfolk have changed from last time), shall we?

UA: dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/centaurs-and-minotaurs

(Apparently, I don't have a high enough post count to actually link yet)

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/centaurs-and-minotaurs

For those interested.

Edit (after reading the document): Odd interaction--what about being a Centaur Thief Rogue?

Centaurs cost 5 ft/foot climbing if it requires hands (instead of 2 like normal). Thief Rogue (Second story work) says it no longer costs extra movement).

Other oddity (that has little effect): both have dual types--humanoid + monstrosity and effects that work on either type work on the PC.

[LudicSavant]

And here I was hoping that they had tried to tackle the age-old problem of a Large-sized PC, but they just lazily retconned them to be Medium, despite how little sense that makes (especially for centaurs, who are "In size, comparable to a human rider mounted on a horse, and they fill similar roles" but somehow significantly smaller than a riderless horse).

[Ralanr]

Interesting.

Seems like with Minotaurs they want them to use their horn abilities all together (dash to gore with bonus action, reaction to shove). Giving them intimidation proficiency is imo a bit lazy but fitting. Not sure what skill I’d have given them if I had to pick one.

[Mana Opal]

It worth noting that the minotaur's Hammering Horns ability can be used with any melee attack, not just its horns. The range limit does keep them from pulling some awkward PAM shenanigans with them, though.

[nickl_2000]

Interesting.

Seems like with Minotaurs they want them to use their horn abilities all together (dash to gore with bonus action, reaction to shove).

Actually you can't according to the phrasing. Dash lets you attack as a bonus action. Hammering Horns is a reaction after an attack.


I don't know how a Centaur can't be a large sized creature, but hey I like more options in races.


I wonder if my DM would allow me to wield a lance 1 handed as a Centaur, and then also have a rider wielding it on the other side :)

[Grey Watcher]

OK, I get that part of the design bible they have has "No PC's larger than Medium" in great big, bold, triple-underlined letters, but this part of the Centaur entry is ridiculous:

"In size, they are comparable to a human rider mounted on a horse"

"Your size is Medium, yet you tower over most other humanoids."

Just bite the bullet already. Put a big asterix like you did with flying PC races that "Available with participating DM's only" or just crumple the size rules up into a ball and throw them out altogether!

[LudicSavant]

To illustrate just how comical the Medium-sized Centaur is, it can ride a horse. While being (fluff-wise but not mechanically) as big as a horse, carrying as much as a horse, and bearing a Medium-sized rider, which can be another Centaur. Which can have another Centaur on its back. And so on and so forth.

Wow this is stupid.

[Ralanr]

Actually you can't according to the phrasing. Dash lets you attack as a bonus action. Hammering Horns is a reaction after an attack.


I don't know how a Centaur can't be a large sized creature, but hey I like more options in races.


I wonder if my DM would allow me to wield a lance 1 handed as a Centaur, and then also have a rider wielding it on the other side :)

I don’t understand. Why can’t my bonus action attack set off the push?

[Cynthaer]

And here I was hoping that they had tried to tackle the age-old problem of a Large-sized PC, but they just lazily retconned them to be Medium, despite how little sense that makes (especially for centaurs, who are "In size, comparable to a human rider mounted on a horse, and they fill similar roles" but somehow significantly smaller than a riderless horse).

Mearls has stated that they basically can't do a straight-up Large creature because the extra damage die for Large weapons would overwhelm everything else and make them too good as brawlers. (That's a rough paraphrase, obviously; he went into more detail on one of the Happy Fun Hour streams. Maybe the one with the Giant Soul Sorcerer.)

Anyway, this is UA, so here's the time to give your feedback. Personally, I think the centaur in particular—with her normal, human-sized hands—is a perfect candidate to try out templating such as "this creature is Large, but counts as Medium for weapon sizes" instead of "this creature is Medium, but counts as Large for carrying capacity".

EDIT: Out of curiosity, does anybody have any other statements from the designers about non-weapon-dice-related issues with Large PCs? I suppose they would also have a troublingly large threat range, especially when wielding reach weapons.

[LudicSavant]

Mearls has stated that they basically can't do a straight-up Large creature because the extra damage die for Large weapons would overwhelm everything else and make them too good as brawlers.

Watch this crazy game design black magic:

"Centaurs may be Large, but they use their weapons in human-scale upper bodies and use Medium-sized weapons just like humans do."


Anyway, this is UA, so here's the time to give your feedback. Personally, I think the centaur in particular—with her normal, human-sized hands—is a perfect candidate to try out templating such as "this creature is Large, but counts as Medium for weapon sizes" instead of "this creature is Medium, but counts as Large for carrying capacity".

Pretty much.

[nickl_2000]

I don’t understand. Why can’t my bonus action attack set off the push?

Hammering Horns. Immediately after you hit a creature with a melee attack as part of the Attack action on your turn,

Your bonus action attack isn't the same thing as an attack action and therefore doesn't set off the push ability.


Although a Minotaur would be an interested class for a Rogue with it's bonus action dash. It's an easy way to get a definite 2 attacks per turn.

[Cynthaer]

Watch this crazy game design black magic:

"Centaurs may be Large, but they use their weapons in human-scale upper bodies and use Medium-sized weapons just like humans do."

I mean, that's literally the thing I suggested in my next paragraph. I'm not defending the decision, just trying to make sure we're all on the same page about why it is the way it is. Otherwise we can't give useful feedback or propose good solutions to fix it.

EDIT: Just saw your edit, so I suppose we're all caught up to each other. :)

[strangebloke]

Yeah, I think the centaur is just not quite bold enough. Make 'em large, but wield medium-sized weapons. As it stands they're perfectly reasonable and I'll probably allow them in my next game. They look like great strength-based clerics, decent strength-based rangers (as weak a concept as that is by default) and probably OK fighters.

The charge ability is awesome for a GWF fighter, particularly a champion. Imagine using it on a crit for 8d6 greatsword damage.

If I were writing this, I would have made them large but with a +1 to DEX and a +1 to STR, so that everyone can make those cool horse archers they've always wanted.

Minotaur practically screams barbarian. Barbarians typically have a pretty wasteful action economy, and Minotaurs give them a shove as a reaction, which is just stellar. Probably better as an ancestral or bear barb than as a zealot or berserker. They're fine fighters, paladins, etc. Overall a lot more flexible than the centaur.

[KorvinStarmast]

Anyway, this is UA, so here's the time to give your feedback. Personally, I think the centaur in particular—with her normal, human-sized hands—is a perfect candidate to try out templating such as "this creature is Large, but counts as Medium for weapon sizes" instead of "this creature is Medium, but counts as Large for carrying capacity". They are trying hard. Too hard.

[Grey Watcher]

To illustrate just how comical the Medium-sized Centaur is, it can ride a horse. While being (fluff-wise but not mechanically) as big as a horse, carrying as much as a horse, and bearing a Medium-sized rider, which can be another Centaur. Which can have another Centaur on its back. And so on and so forth.

Wow this is stupid.

We heard (herd?) you like horseback riding so we put horseback riding in your horseback riding.


Anyway, this is UA, so here's the time to give your feedback. Personally, I think the centaur in particular—with her normal, human-sized hands—is a perfect candidate to try out templating such as "this creature is Large, but counts as Medium for weapon sizes" instead of "this creature is Medium, but counts as Large for carrying capacity".


Watch this crazy game design black magic:

"Centaurs may be Large, but they use their weapons in human-scale upper bodies and use Medium-sized weapons just like humans do."

What madness is this? Stop meddling in things man was not meant to know!

[strangebloke]

To illustrate just how comical the Medium-sized Centaur is, it can ride a horse. While being (fluff-wise but not mechanically) as big as a horse, carrying as much as a horse, and bearing a Medium-sized rider, which can be another Centaur. Which can have another Centaur on its back. And so on and so forth.

Wow this is stupid.

BATTLE TOWER!!!

Triple Centaur stack riding on top of a pegasus, go!

[nickl_2000]

BATTLE TOWER!!!

Triple Centaur stack riding on top of a pegasus, go!

I feel this needs a two handed sword wielding halfing naked barbarian on top of it all.

[Finney]

And here I was hoping that they had tried to tackle the age-old problem of a Large-sized PC, but they just lazily retconned them to be Medium, despite how little sense that makes (especially for centaurs, who are "In size, comparable to a human rider mounted on a horse, and they fill similar roles" but somehow significantly smaller than a riderless horse).

I agree completely.

Are the PC versions of these races supposed to be a new subrace or do they represent a small subset of the species that is stunted and/or genetically abnormal? Why would a PC minotaur or centaur be medium-sized, while they are both large-sized in the Monster Manual?

Not a fan of shoehorning them into the medium-sized category without any explanation as to how or why they are different than the rest of their species that you might encounter in the wild, so to speak.

[LudicSavant]

BATTLE TOWER!!!

Triple Centaur stack riding on top of a pegasus, go!

https://orig00.deviantart.net/e67a/f/2015/362/8/5/pmkoopabrostower_by_doctorworm1987-d9lsxvz.png

[Cynthaer]

So, ignoring the rules bug that lets you stack centaurs, how do we feel about the threat ranges for Large PCs? We're basically looking at a 4x4 threatened area instead of 3x3 for normal weapons, and 6x6 instead of 5x5 for reach weapons—that's another 11 squares covered by your Sentinal/Polearm Master fighter.

Mostly this isn't a problem if you're not trying to break it, but I'm a little concerned about the damage output and battlefield control offered by the optimized build. Am I just worrying too much?

[Grey Watcher]

I agree completely.

Are the PC versions of these races supposed to be a new subrace or do they represent a small subset of the species that is stunted and/or genetically abnormal? Why would a PC minotaur or centaur be medium-sized, while they are both large-sized in the Monster Manual?

Not a fan of shoehorning them into the medium-sized category without any explanation as to how or why they are different than the rest of their species that you might encounter in the wild, so to speak.

I was surprised that the Minotaur didn't have the "your carrying capacity is as a creature one category larger", since that's their usual workaround for "these guys are supposed to be large, but we're not allowed to give you that due to... reasons." As has been said, centaurs have literally the best excuse to be Large but not use Large people's weapons, since their upper bodies and hands are human-sized. I'm going to try to be nice from here on out and chalk it up to a communal derp.

[Mana Opal]

Mind if I focus on the other critter to come from this month's shenanigans, rather than the Totem Pole of Horse People (is the halfling standing on the topmost guy's shoulders, by the way?)? No? Okay, good!

We've had a couple runs for the minotaur prior to now, so for comparison's sake:

UA Waterborne Minotaur:
Ability Score Increase: +1 STR
Conqueror's Virtue: Your choice of an additional +1 STR, +1 INT, or +1 WIS
Horns: Natural weapons that deal 1d10 Piercing damage and grant Advantage on shoving checks (but not checks against being shoved yourself)
Goring Rush: After using a Dash action, you may use a Bonus Action to make a melee attack with your horns (note the lack of a required distance here)
Hammering Horns: After making a melee attack with your Attack Action, you may use your Bonus Action to make a shove attempt, which cannot be used to knock the target prone
Labrynthine Recall: You remember any path you've ever traveled
Sea Reaver: Proficiency with both Navigator's Tools and Vehicles (Sea)
Languages: Surprise! You can speak Common

Planes Shift: Amonkhet Minotaur:
Ability Score Increase: +2 STR, +1 CON
Natural Weapon: Your horns are Natural Weapons you can use for Unarmed Strikes. They deal 1d6 +STR Modifier Bludgeoning damage on a hit
Menacing: Proficiency in the Intimidate skill
Relentless Endurance: Once per long rest, if you are knocked to 0 or less HP (but not killed outright), you may be knocked down to 1 HP instead
Savage Attacks: When you score a critical hit with a melee weapon attack, you may reroll one of the damage die and add the result to the total
Languages: You can speak Common and Minotaur (that's new)

UA: Centaurs and Minotaurs... Minotaur:
Ability Score Increase: +2 STR, +1 CON (same as PS)
Horns: Your horns are natural weapons with which you are proficient (apparently the other two weren't...?) They deal 1d6 +STR Modifier piercing damage on a hit
Goring Rush: When you take the Dash action, and move at least as far as your speed (base speed is 30 ft. for all of them), you may make a melee attack with your horns with your Bonus Action
Hammering Horns: Immediately after you hit a creature with a melee attack from your Attack Action (thus, can't be used in the same round as Goring Horns in most cases), you may attempt to shove a creature within 5 ft. of you that is no bigger than Large size. If it fails the ensuing saving throw, it is forced to move 5 ft. away from you
Menacing: Proficiency in the Intimidate skill
Hybrid Nature: You are both a Humanoid and a Monstrosity, with all of the weaknesses involved. Whoops!
Languages: You speak both Common and Minotaur

All in all, it seems we have a fusion of the two prior attempts that simultaneously tries to simplify the gameplay and clarify the inconsistencies (no more 0 ft. Dashes, for example). We should probably expect to see Hybrid Nature come up a bit more often from here on out, huh?

[Joe the Rat]

So we all know what to put in the next survey, yes?

I suppose there is the issue of being too big for halflings to push around, and that Giants are valid tackles if you make them Large. Which frankly I don't see as an issue, ever since my players put grease+repelling blast to use sacking a hill giant steading...

[LudicSavant]

So, ignoring the rules bug that lets you stack centaurs, how do we feel about the threat ranges for Large PCs? We're basically looking at a 4x4 threatened area instead of 3x3 for normal weapons, and 6x6 instead of 5x5 for reach weapons—that's another 11 squares covered by your Sentinal/Polearm Master fighter.

Questions like these are precisely why I was interested in seeing how they'd tackle the issue from a design and balance standpoint. It's resolvable but has little precedent in WotC's design books (even if it does in other games). So I was curious to see how they'd finally approach it since centaurs obviously need to be actually Large to make anything resembling sense.

But it turns out they just opted to not think about the issue at all and instead implement the mechanically silliest race ever. :smallfrown:

[Cynthaer]

Questions like these are precisely why I was interested in seeing how they'd tackle the issue from a design and balance standpoint. It's resolvable but has little precedent in WotC's design books (even if it does in other games). So I was curious to see how they'd finally approach it since centaurs obviously need to be actually Large to make anything resembling sense.

But it turns out they just opted to not think about the issue at all and instead implement the mechanically silliest race ever. :smallfrown:

I mean, it's also possible that they did think about it and simply had enough problems with it that they felt it was worth floating this version to see how crucial the actual Large size was to the playerbase.

I know from the Giant Soul Sorcerer stream that the issues with Large characters are something that the designers think about in general, and it's an unavoidable topic of discussion when designing a centaur race. I would bet any amount of money you care to put up that they seriously wrestled with it before putting out the final UA.

I just also think that they came to an unsatisfactory solution, and that centaurs simply need to be 2x2 on the battle map in a way that even minotaurs and goliaths don't.

(Honestly, it may be that it's never going to be balanced enough for real publication, and that it may just need to live as a Large UA race with a big caveat reading "please don't take Sentinel or Polearm Master".)

[strangebloke]

So, ignoring the rules bug that lets you stack centaurs, how do we feel about the threat ranges for Large PCs? We're basically looking at a 4x4 threatened area instead of 3x3 for normal weapons, and 6x6 instead of 5x5 for reach weapons—that's another 11 squares covered by your Sentinal/Polearm Master fighter.

Mostly this isn't a problem if you're not trying to break it, but I'm a little concerned about the damage output and battlefield control offered by the optimized build. Am I just worrying too much?

You still only get one reaction a round. I certainly don't see it as any more serious than the bugbear who get's 5 foot reach added to everything.

Overall, I'd consider large size to be a buff, but not an egregious one since there's lots of downsides to being Large, most notably that you're going to have trouble navigating certain kinds of dungeons. In any case, the worse way you could break the game with large size (enlarge/reduce shenanigans) is still a lot less game breaking than the centaur tower.

[LudicSavant]

I would bet any amount of money you care to put up that they seriously wrestled with it before putting out the final UA. I wouldn't bet against it... which only makes it more concerning that we got what we got.

[MeeposFire]

I mean, it's also possible that they did think about it and simply had enough problems with it that they felt it was worth floating this version to see how crucial the actual Large size was to the playerbase.

I know from the Giant Soul Sorcerer stream that the issues with Large characters are something that the designers think about in general, and it's an unavoidable topic of discussion when designing a centaur race. I would bet any amount of money you care to put up that they seriously wrestled with it before putting out the final UA.

I just also think that they came to an unsatisfactory solution, and that centaurs simply need to be 2x2 on the battle map in a way that even minotaurs and goliaths don't.

(Honestly, it may be that it's never going to be balanced enough for real publication, and that it may just need to live as a Large UA race with a big caveat reading "please don't take Sentinel or Polearm Master".)

I think a lot of people forget that UA is designed for them to put out something and see how people like it. If you do not think the medium version is they way to go let them know and why. You can also put forth your ideas on how to make it work and they might take the feedback.

I like the idea of making it large but the weapon damage and reach is medium since the upper body is medium (by the way this is how it worked in some earlier versions like 3e where large long creatures had the same reach as medium creatures not large tall creatures).

[TheCleverGuy]

I have a problem with "Centaurs mature and age at about the same rate as humans." Mostly because the image of a human baby (that can't even hold its own head up) grafted onto even a pretty small foal is just too grotesque to think about.

[thoroughlyS]

I'm joining the chorus about Centaur size. Large size with a caveat about damage dice is the way to go, especially considering the physiology of the centaur specifically. For other large races (e.g. Ogres) they might have to figure out something else.

I suppose they would also have a troublingly large threat range, especially when wielding reach weapons.

Large size creatures usually also have a 5 ft. reach (the Centaur in the Monster Manual has a 10 ft. Pike, not a 15 ft. Pike).
However, on a grid, Large size creatures have more adjacent spaces than Medium. This feels like a trade off: on one hand, you threaten more space, on the other you can be surrounded by more.
The definition of a creature's size is "how much space a creature of a particular size controls in combat" (Player's Handbook p. 191). From a physiological standpoint, a Centaur might only be able to control the same amount of space as a Human, therefore they are Medium size. Yes, their body (particularly their hind) is larger than that, but they can't control the space behind them as effectively.
Size and space aside, I think Centaurs should get +1 DEX or +1 WIS, because I too want to see Centaur archers. And their name fluff tells me that they make excellent Ancestral Guardians Barbarians. You are connected to the spirits of those who bore your name before you. I think the Charge trait should be worded more like Savage Attacks. "You add the weapon's damage dice" instead of "roll the weapon’s damage dice twice", so that it doesn't stack with a crit.



I am unhappy with the direction Minotaurs are going, specifically that they are getting pigeonholed into the same role as the Goliath — a poor man's Half-Orc:

+2 STR and +1 CON yet again, when originally they had +1 STR and +1 STR/INT/WIS. I think +2 STR, +1 CON/INT/WIS would be appropriate.
Removing Labyrinthine Recall makes no sense. Honestly, how often would this feature come up? It's the most ribbony ribbon I've ever seen, and it's taken directly from the Minotaur statblock, let them keep it.
Tacking on proficiency in Intimidation seems lazy. At least make it Perception so that it lines up with the Minotaur statblock.
The one Half-Orc trait they should have, Darkvision, is mysteriously missing.


I have a problem with "Centaurs mature and age at about the same rate as humans." Mostly because the image of a human baby (that can't even hold its own head up) grafted onto even a pretty small foal is just too grotesque to think about.
https://i.imgur.com/fzK4Aom.jpg

[strangebloke]

I have a problem with "Centaurs mature and age at about the same rate as humans." Mostly because the image of a human baby (that can't even hold its own head up) grafted onto even a pretty small foal is just too grotesque to think about.

Well, there's no reason they can't be born more physically mature. Like 2 months more mature, say.

The only reason human babies can't support their own heads is because if they got any bigger, they wouldn't be able to fit through the birth canal. With Centaurs, long and lean as they are, that's not really a problem.

[Contrast]

I have a problem with "Centaurs mature and age at about the same rate as humans." Mostly because the image of a human baby (that can't even hold its own head up) grafted onto even a pretty small foal is just too grotesque to think about.

Click for image (http://i.imgur.com/fzK4Aom.jpg)

[samcifer]

I wish they'd add satyrs as a playable race. :(

[Mr. Crowbar]

I am fine with Medium Centaurs and would love to try out this race as presented, but they should really commit to one size or the other. Like I'd go with that they're more pony-people than horse-people.

[PeteNutButter]

With a large sized PC, reach/threatened squares isn't really an issue as they are the same as a mounted PC. I suspect there are other issues where they might have published mods that don't accommodate large sized creatures well. If the party has to squeeze through a crawl space or something the centaur might be SoL. Unlike the mounted PC, he can't "dismount." (Centaur totems not withstanding.)

As for the Minotaur, not bad. I see Haste on a Minotaur as a dash action into horn poking.

The free skills and whatnot are kind of lame. Most of the Volo's races had unique and fun features, which make the races enticing. The Minotaur kind of hits that mark, but the centaur definitely falls flat.

How are you going to make centaurs medium sized when EVERY PUBLISHED D&D CENTAUR MINI IS LARGE?

[Regitnui]

I wish they'd add satyrs as a playable race. :(

I got one really good reason for that. Greek mythology. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satyr) Let's just say they're all really obviously male all the time, and there's a reason the one in the MM is wearing a loincloth and holding the pipes in front of it. It's schmuck bait. 18+ Kender level schmuck bait.

On topic, am I the only person who thinks it's a typo that they left out the Labrythine Recall ribbon on the minotaurs.

[DracoKnight]

On topic, am I the only person who thinks it's a typo that they left out the Labrythine Recall ribbon on the minotaurs.

Personally, I don't miss it.

[Beechgnome]

I agree with the complaints about medium centaurs and we should let them know.

But what I want to know is this: what are they going for here? What world/setting/supplement is all of this geared toward?

We saw last fall's Eladrin, Gith and elf UAs and the book they would foreshadow. So what does playable centaurs and minotaurs say about future books?

[DracoKnight]

So what does playable centaurs and minotaurs say about future books?

Elminster's Guide to Monstrous Cultures? More playable human-shaped monsters. Reprint the Monstrous races from VGtM, and bring us a smattering of new ones.

[dgnslyr]

I have a problem with "Centaurs mature and age at about the same rate as humans." Mostly because the image of a human baby (that can't even hold its own head up) grafted onto even a pretty small foal is just too grotesque to think about.

Keyword is "about." I guess it would make sense that if the horse-half is old enough to walk, then the human-half should be at a similar developmental stage, too, so something like a toddler body on wobbly horsey legs.

Probably best not to worry too much about centaur life-history, though, before it takes us to strange and uncomfortable places.

[thoroughlyS]

Elminster's Guide to Monstrous Cultures? More playable human-shaped monsters. ReprintRework and flesh out the Monstrous races from VGtM, and bring us a smattering of new ones.
I'm holding out hope that they'll give each race a more full write-up, and maybe rework a few *cough*Orcs*cough*. I'd also like to see some subraces, especially so that Goblin Rogue isn't a waste of a race's best trait.

[Regitnui]

I agree with the complaints about medium centaurs and we should let them know.

But what I want to know is this: what are they going for here? What world/setting/supplement is all of this geared toward?

We saw last fall's Eladrin, Gith and elf UAs and the book they would foreshadow. So what does playable centaurs and minotaurs say about future books?

Is there a region or place in Forgotten Realms outside the Sword Coast known for 'monstrous' adventurers? That'd be my first guess, because neither of those are big presences in Eberron or Dark Sun, iirc. They do mention Krynn in the minotaur entry, but I don't know anything about Dragonlance either.

[MagneticKitty]

I assume we're allowed to post opinions on this thread? I don't care for the changes they made to Minotaur, I feel like the ruined the viability of using your horns as a main (non monk) weapon. But I think it's more comparable to other races with natural weapons. Just sad my unarmed Minotaur fighter or barb can't use only their horns viably anymore.

Also why limit centaur fur colors? Seems needlessly constraining. Should have said: in this relm (whatever main relm it is, I forget) Brown is normal. But in other relms all normal horse colors exist. Because that's half the fun of a centaur. I feel like their perks are balanced ok.. with speed and being able to have a rider... But happens if you give one a climb speed from rogue or Mariner tho?

[Willie the Duck]

The minotaur horn stuff seems... like a neat fiddly knob they are putting on their dashboard because it looks neat, not because anyone asked for that particular function. Who is demanding a strength race that gets random 1D6+str damage or 5' shove bonus or reaction attacks that trigger after reasonable but still infrequent triggers? How about we get the non-convoluted stuff from the Waterborne minotaur -- an unarmed attack option (yes, make the damage more reasonable), some bonus tool and/or skill proficiencies, can't get lost in a maze, and maybe some shoving bonuses, along with darkvision and physical stats. Simple, elegant, can make a decent fighter or barbarian as we'd expect, or a martial smarts/skills character to play against type.

[samcifer]

I got one really good reason for that. Greek mythology. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satyr) Let's just say they're all really obviously male all the time, and there's a reason the one in the MM is wearing a loincloth and holding the pipes in front of it. It's schmuck bait. 18+ Kender level schmuck bait.

On topic, am I the only person who thinks it's a typo that they left out the Labrythine Recall ribbon on the minotaurs.

I like them for thematic reasons.

[Knaight]

Downsides first - the whole idea of the medium centaur is pretty dumb in a lot of ways, and a slow climb speed is just entirely too soft a penalty for being a centaur, given that they probably shouldn't be able to climb at all. Horses aren't exactly mountain goats.

On the upside, this UA is potentially a bit telling for future material. The repeated mention of Hybrid and Monstrosity creature types, and the decision to overtly allude to abilities that affect them suggest that we might be getting a book heavy on them soon.

[Grey Watcher]

Personally, I don't miss it.

Yeah, given that being put in a maze was supposed to be something the Minotaur specifically couldn't get out of, making them innately good at mazes is a tad silly.

[Scripten]

Horses aren't exactly mountain goats.


However, Centaurs that are half mountain goat is a playable race I now desperately want.

[PeteNutButter]

However, Centaurs that are half mountain goat is a playable race I now desperately want.

Maybe that explains the medium size after all...

[strangebloke]

However, Centaurs that are half mountain goat is a playable race I now desperately want.

http://homebrewery.naturalcrit.com/share/H1NA5deT

Asinine Centaur in this homebrew probably qualifies.

...not that I really think this particular homebrew is very good. If anything, it's strictly worse than what's been released here. The Asinine Centaur is a small creature that can act as a mount for a large creature. Think about that for a second, and where that leads.

[Regitnui]

However, Centaurs that are half mountain goat is a playable race I now desperately want.

Aren't those in Planescape? Bariaur or something like that?

[Beechgnome]

Aren't those in Planescape? Bariaur or something like that?

Yup. Native to Ysgard. http://www.lomion.de/cmm/bariaur.php

[EvilAnagram]

So... monstrous races are solid fighters and barbarians, basically.


Click for image (http://i.imgur.com/fzK4Aom.jpg)
Well. That's horrifying.

...yup, definitely going to color my reactions to baby kicks for the next three months.


Elminster's Guide to Monstrous Cultures? More playable human-shaped monsters. Reprint the Monstrous races from VGtM, and bring us a smattering of new ones.
No more Elminster! He was the worst part of Volo's Guide. I can't believe such a relentless douchebag has a fanbase.

[MagneticKitty]

However, Centaurs that are half mountain goat is a playable race I now desperately want.


Goataur or deertaur
Your hindquarters are that of a deer or ram's body, where the animal's neck would be emerges a human's torso and upper half. Your head is adorned with horns, and your hair is typically shaggy and fur-like or curly and wooly in texture. Your human features are fine and pointed like an elf's, but males of your species are able to grow facial hair.

Ability score increase: dex +2 con +1
Age. You mature about the same rate as humans but on average live halfway into your second century.
Alignment. Goataurs are inclined toward neutrality.
Size. your size is medium.
Speed. 30 ft walk and climb

Sure-Footed. You have advantage on Strength and Dexterity saving throws made against effects that would knock you prone.

Tauric Build. You count as one size larger when determining your carrying capacity and the weight you can push or drag.
Your body is ill suited to wear normal armor, but usually mundane armor can be cobbled together between barding and humanoid armor. Finally, a Small or smaller creature can ride on your back if you allow it. In such a situation, you continue to act independently, not as a controlled mount.

Natural offense. You're never unnarmed. You're proficient with your hooves and horns as natural weapons. They deal 1d6 bludgeoning damage + your strength.

Battering ram. Your unnarmed strikes do double damage to structures.

[Beleriphon]

Is there a region or place in Forgotten Realms outside the Sword Coast known for 'monstrous' adventurers? That'd be my first guess, because neither of those are big presences in Eberron or Dark Sun, iirc. They do mention Krynn in the minotaur entry, but I don't know anything about Dragonlance either.

The Shaar is a plains region. We have Chondalwood which according to FR canon has a tribe living there.

[DracoKnight]

No more Elminster! He was the worst part of Volo's Guide. I can't believe such a relentless douchebag has a fanbase.

I'm with you on that. I just don't know a whole lot of FR Characters, and I figured Drizzt's Guide to Monstrous Cultures would be even less well-received.

[Grim Portent]

On the one hand, yay centaurs, on the other hand there's a bunch of homebrew that already went the lazy powerful build+ route for the size and it continues to be lazy compared to making them Large size with penalties rather than Medium with bonuses.

EDIT: Since the possibility of one PC riding another non-shapeshifted PC as a mount is now official, anyone got any ideas for ways to make two PCs that work in concert as mount and rider? Obvious stuff I see is the Mounted Combatant feat*, Wolf Totem Barbarian and Ancients/Devotion Paladin. Centaur Rogue for bonus action disengage and dash to keep the rider super mobile perhaps?

*Though since centaurs are only Medium the advantage on smaller targets is only going to work on small creatures.

[Joe the Rat]

Something I've been tickling about - what happens if we make them Medium-and-a-half? I'm picturing a 5x10 control zone. Too fiddly?

[Sigreid]

To illustrate just how comical the Medium-sized Centaur is, it can ride a horse. While being (fluff-wise but not mechanically) as big as a horse, carrying as much as a horse, and bearing a Medium-sized rider, which can be another Centaur. Which can have another Centaur on its back. And so on and so forth.

Wow this is stupid.

Clearly they are Shetland centaurs.

More seriously, in this case they are probably using the medium to define the capabilities of the human half. A centaur can't use a hill giant's club, for example.

[Beechgnome]

Step one: play Eldritch Knight centaur.
Step two: At 7th level, swap out non-Abjuration/Evocation spell with Enlarge/Reduce.
Step three: cast on self. Now I am large.
Step four: visit the family without shame. For one minute.

[MagneticKitty]

EDIT: Since the possibility of one PC riding another non-shapeshifted PC as a mount is now official, anyone got any ideas for ways to make two PCs that work in concert as mount and rider? Obvious stuff I see is the Mounted Combatant feat*, Wolf Totem Barbarian and Ancients/Devotion Paladin. Centaur Rogue for bonus action disengage and dash to keep the rider super mobile perhaps?

*Though since centaurs are only Medium the advantage on smaller targets is only going to work on small creatures.

Maybe Calvary fighter dual weilding fighting style as a rider and mounted combatant and dual weilder feat. Dual weilding Lance's, which are now one handed. And.. rogue with sneak attack as the mount? Rogue likes having an ally nearby and also not taking hits.

[EvilAnagram]

I'm with you on that. I just don't know a whole lot of FR Characters, and I figured Drizzt's Guide to Monstrous Cultures would be even less well-received.
I feel like a Ranger's field guide would be fun. All of the side text would be about taste and consistency.

[ProseBeforeHos]

Anyway, this is UA, so here's the time to give your feedback. Personally, I think the centaur in particular—with her normal, human-sized hands—is a perfect candidate to try out templating such as "this creature is Large, but counts as Medium for weapon sizes" instead of "this creature is Medium, but counts as Large for carrying capacity".


Came here to post this. Such an easy fix for the 'large issue' not sure why they have to do dumb stuff like making medium centaurs.

[Tetrasodium]

I agree with the complaints about medium centaurs and we should let them know.

But what I want to know is this: what are they going for here? What world/setting/supplement is all of this geared toward?

We saw last fall's Eladrin, Gith and elf UAs and the book they would foreshadow. So what does playable centaurs and minotaurs say about future books?


Is there a region or place in Forgotten Realms outside the Sword Coast known for 'monstrous' adventurers? That'd be my first guess, because neither of those are big presences in Eberron or Dark Sun, iirc. They do mention Krynn in the minotaur entry, but I don't know anything about Dragonlance either.

I don't miss Labrythine Recall one bit, good riddance. It was a completely useless ability, when was the last time a gm made their group navigate their way out of a dungeon? On top of being useless, in a survival type situation where a gm might make players navigate their way out, it was absurdly far into the munchkin range of things. As if those were not enough, it is automatic success for survival checks & such to find your way back through the wilderness.

Droaam in eberron has at least one minotaur warlord (Rhesh Turakbar (http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/Rhesh_Turakbar)) loyal to The DoSK (http://keith-baker.com/dragonmarks-66-droaam-and-the-daughters-of-sora-kell/). Given what little we know about Turakbars fist (http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/Turakbar%27s_Fist), either he's a pretty crazy demon worshiper or enjoys the protection of tall tales helping to protect his keep. Xor'chylic (mindflayer mayor/warlord of greywall) is said to have minotaur guards along with the znir pact gnolls he keeps in greywall to keep the peace. I'd not be surprised if The DoSK also had them alongside the war trolls & skullcrusher ogres they pulled out of nobodyknowswhere. House Tharashk (http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/House_Tharashk) mercenaries (those are basically all monstrous races) would almost certainly spread any number of minotaurs across the eastern lands & leave them wealthy but unemployed at the sudden treaty of thronehold once their contracts were up. I'd not bat an eye or consider it a worthwhile use of time to check if they were/were not reported present in the demon wastes either. Eberron does not have minotaurs with a large noteworthy presence true, but there are a so many places they can simply live completely uninteresting lives of no particular note that they don't even need an excuse to exist so much as some examples of them as normal functioning citizens.


forgotten realms has the beastlands (http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Beastlands), but like much of FR it's turned up to 12 & keeps running on large amounts of combined pixie dust (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nbEeU2dRBg)/handwavium to keep from flying apart. I tried adapting a droaam adventure to it at one point & in the end decided that it was too wildly different to accomplish that


I kinda like the minotaur quite a bit, the centaur is silly in how it dances around not just making it large but limited to medium scale weaponry.

[Level2intern]

Although a Minotaur would be an interested class for a Rogue with it's bonus action dash. It's an easy way to get a definite 2 attacks per turn.

Doesn't work. You can't use bonus action to dash and also bonus action to make the horn attack.

[Rynjin]

Watch this crazy game design black magic:

"Centaurs may be Large, but they use their weapons in human-scale upper bodies and use Medium-sized weapons just like humans do."



Pretty much.

I mean, this is how centaurs work in PF at least, so they wouldn't have even needed an original thought process for this. just seems they were lazy.

[Jerrykhor]

'In size, they are comparable to a human rider mounted on a horse'. Your size is medium.

Buuuuuull****. What's next? Playable Giant race, size=medium?

[A Fat Dragon]

'In size, they are comparable to a human rider mounted on a horse'. Your size is medium.

Buuuuuull****. What's next? Playable Giant race, size=medium?

Actually, Size = Small.
Gotta’ compensate for all that diversity and rock-throwing abilities.

[Willie the Duck]

Doesn't work. You can't use bonus action to dash and also bonus action to make the horn attack.

Indeed. Using up your reaction for a small shove I guess you get to decide when to trigger (although it's giving up any potential OA, so ick!), but overall, I am having a hard time coming up with the build one makes with this race, rather than on of the other str/con races.

[Finback]

However, Centaurs that are half mountain goat is a playable race I now desperately want.

2e had gnoats. Gnome-goat-aurs.

[Finback]

I feel like minotaurs got dealt a bad hand with this. If my players want a minotaur, I'm going to offer them the first UA version, as I feel it allowed a bit more choice in how to play them with different classes, etc. This one feels like "yeah, fighter or barbarian, everything else is a bad match"; something I dislike intently. I'm not saying some races can't be *better* at certain roles, but it shouldn't feel like the full package of abilities locks you down. I mean, a minotaur sorcerer player shouldn't feel like their horns are a wasted utility, and the +2 Str was for naught.

[Tectorman]

Regarding the Centaur...

Pleased, more or less. I don't think there really can be a way to get a working Large size playable race, so I'd much rather that break and I still get my Centaur PC than have all Centaurs be Large and unplayable. And if that means calling them out as separate from the MM Centaurs, so be it.

Also agree with the extent of the penalty on checks to climb. It certainly shouldn't be impossible. They've not half-intelligent human, half-dumb horse; they're one creature that has had challenges moving vertically since they first became sentient and would have used that time as a species and as a culture to come up with their own ways to climb. Besides, did you see the last Hobbit movie? Here's the creatures scaling vertical terrain in order of proficiency:

Legolas
The goats the dwarves were riding
All the other bipeds that didn't have hooves

Even if they remain horse-like rather than goat-like, the fact that they're intelligent IMO is all the justification they need to be theoretically capable of climbing. But if that's what it takes to justify the climbing and the different size compared to the MM Centaurs, then fine.

Regarding the Minotaurs, it kind of felt like they were just Horns the Race (I already don't play Dragonborn, aka Breath Weapon the Race, so I don't want to see another race defined by one gimmick). I get that Labyrinthine Recall (name?) might have needed a change, but I appreciated the simple fact of its existence that it did something to diversify the Minotaur.

[Kaliayev]

The charge ability is awesome for a GWF fighter, particularly a champion. Imagine using it on a crit for 8d6 greatsword damage.

Tfw your per rest racial trait is missing the words "you can."

[Jerrykhor]

I feel like minotaurs got dealt a bad hand with this. If my players want a minotaur, I'm going to offer them the first UA version, as I feel it allowed a bit more choice in how to play them with different classes, etc. This one feels like "yeah, fighter or barbarian, everything else is a bad match"; something I dislike intently. I'm not saying some races can't be *better* at certain roles, but it shouldn't feel like the full package of abilities locks you down. I mean, a minotaur sorcerer player shouldn't feel like their horns are a wasted utility, and the +2 Str was for naught.

Its no different from the other brutish races like half-orc or goliath, they are all optimised for barb/fighter, except minotaur is a bit worse.

[Sigreid]

Given that the historical mythology reference for the minotaur was an underground maze murder machine, I'm disappointed they dont have some kind of a sense that works in the dark and the 1e ability to navigate mazes.

[Knaight]

Given that the historical mythology reference for the minotaur was an underground maze murder machine, I'm disappointed they dont have some kind of a sense that works in the dark and the 1e ability to navigate mazes.

As pointed out upthread, the ability to navigate mazes never seemed to extend to actually leaving them, and was pretty questionable as a result.

[EvilAnagram]

As pointed out upthread, the ability to navigate mazes never seemed to extend to actually leaving them, and was pretty questionable as a result.

How about the ability to easily navigate mazes coupled with crushing agoraphobia?

[Finback]

As pointed out upthread, the ability to navigate mazes never seemed to extend to actually leaving them, and was pretty questionable as a result.

You know, thinking about this - was the labyrinth ever actually meant to be escapable for the Minotaur? It was more a prison than anything. Granted, Theseus was able to escape, but what if we're talking about a situation where the only "escape routes" aren't physically viable for the Minotaur? I mean, a rat can escape from a prison cell pretty easily if the bars are, say, 10cm apart, but a human certainly can't.

One could argue the Minotaur had an incredible sense of memory of the labyrinth from being trapped in there, but if there was no physically viable way to escape because leaving was never part of the option, it's not really fair to disallow a good memory.

[Spacehamster]

Yeah, I think the centaur is just not quite bold enough. Make 'em large, but wield medium-sized weapons. As it stands they're perfectly reasonable and I'll probably allow them in my next game. They look like great strength-based clerics, decent strength-based rangers (as weak a concept as that is by default) and probably OK fighters.

The charge ability is awesome for a GWF fighter, particularly a champion. Imagine using it on a crit for 8d6 greatsword damage.

If I were writing this, I would have made them large but with a +1 to DEX and a +1 to STR, so that everyone can make those cool horse archers they've always wanted.

Minotaur practically screams barbarian. Barbarians typically have a pretty wasteful action economy, and Minotaurs give them a shove as a reaction, which is just stellar. Probably better as an ancestral or bear barb than as a zealot or berserker. They're fine fighters, paladins, etc. Overall a lot more flexible than the centaur.

How is STR based ranger weak? A GWM ranger is higher dpr than a dual wield or dueling one, about same as a ranged sharpshooter due to bigger damage die but less to hit than archery. :)

[EvilAnagram]

How is STR based ranger weak? A GWM ranger is higher dpr than a dual wield or dueling one, about same as a ranged sharpshooter due to bigger damage die but less to hit than archery. :)

I never understood it, but a lot of people start acting weird if you tell them to try out the STRanger.

[Spacehamster]

I never understood it, but a lot of people start acting weird if you tell them to try out the STRanger.

Aye to me it’s equal to the DEX based ranged ranger and the best non defensive melee option, mountain Dwarf is the best fit for it with these stats after racials: 16/14/16/9/13/8, with that you have better AC than other rangers(defensive style), an uneven WIS that goes well with Resilient or observant, better damage than your average melee DEX ranger and are way cooler than those foppish sissy elves. :)

[A Fat Dragon]

Primeval Enclave Ranger gives you a Large form.

Just be a Centaur PC and do that, problem solved! Desperately pushing the “All speed reduced to 5” under the rug

[nickl_2000]

Alright, what about using the base 40 feet movement of the Centaur and making them a monk. You have better unarmed strikes at level 1 for flurry of blows, and you movement per round gets even more crazy!

[WhismurWanders]

Alright, what about using the base 40 feet movement of the Centaur and making them a monk. You have better unarmed strikes at level 1 for flurry of blows, and you movement per round gets even more crazy!

You also get to be a Centaur that can run across water, and up vertical surfaces.

While carrying a rider. (AFAIK you don't need special equipment to stay on a mount that has unusual travelling methods, like Griffons or Giant Wolf Spiders)

Even Skyrim's horses weren't that ridiculous. (https://i.imgur.com/aKgdAiH.png)

[nickl_2000]

You also get to be a Centaur that can run across water, and up vertical surfaces.

While carrying a rider. (AFAIK you don't need special equipment to stay on a mount that has unusual travelling methods, like Griffons or Giant Wolf Spiders)

Even Skyrim's horses weren't that ridiculous. (https://i.imgur.com/aKgdAiH.png)

I'm pretty sure you would need a special saddle for running up a wall, but over water seem fine to me. That does make for an interesting concept though.

[WhismurWanders]

I'm pretty sure you would need a special saddle for running up a wall, but over water seem fine to me. That does make for an interesting concept though.

Even then, saddles aren't all too expensive. An exotic saddle is only 60 gp, that's a drop in the bucket of 5e's economy.

[nickl_2000]

Even then, saddles aren't all too expensive. An exotic saddle is only 60 gp, that's a drop in the bucket of 5e's economy.

Oh I agree completely. 60 GP really is nothing. I've got a Moon Druid who is currently carrying around an exotic saddle for insert forms, and exotic saddle for snake forms, and a regular saddle (as bought a bag of holding for obvious reasons.

[DigoDragon]

Why be just part horse when you could be full pony (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1O1Tbgtc66NKq7bgAsYCL5XN9xjQI-hMDJheBuzuqfiY/edit?usp=sharing)? That's my question. XD [/Shameless]



BATTLE TOWER!!!
Triple Centaur stack riding on top of a pegasus, go!

https://orig00.deviantart.net/e67a/f/2015/362/8/5/pmkoopabrostower_by_doctorworm1987-d9lsxvz.png

The main reason I came to this thread was to let you two know that you both are the reason there's coffee all over my computer monitor. :smalltongue:



I am fine with Medium Centaurs and would love to try out this race as presented, but they should really commit to one size or the other. Like I'd go with that they're more pony-people than horse-people.

I think the aforementioned "this creature is Large, but counts as Medium for weapon sizes" is the clean and easy way to go. At least, I would take this route if a PC wanted to play a centaur.



No more Elminster! He was the worst part of Volo's Guide. I can't believe such a relentless douchebag has a fanbase.

Yeah, the GM of my local D&D 3.5 game seems to know how to play him well when he gave everyone magical gear except me, just because I said I liked horses.

[the_brazenburn]

You know, thinking about this - was the labyrinth ever actually meant to be escapable for the Minotaur? It was more a prison than anything. Granted, Theseus was able to escape, but what if we're talking about a situation where the only "escape routes" aren't physically viable for the Minotaur? I mean, a rat can escape from a prison cell pretty easily if the bars are, say, 10cm apart, but a human certainly can't.

One could argue the Minotaur had an incredible sense of memory of the labyrinth from being trapped in there, but if there was no physically viable way to escape because leaving was never part of the option, it's not really fair to disallow a good memory.

Some traditions put the Minotaur in the position of a victim. He was the creation of a vengeful god, who was essentially using the poor guy to piss off a king he didn't like. The Minotaur was put in the maze because he was different, and was made into a killing machine because that was the only thing he knew.

Personally, I like the idea that the Minotaur couldn't escape the maze because he didn't want to. It was pretty clear that the Athenian tributes were killed by the Minotaur, not by starvation. Thus, he must have been able to navigate the maze relatively easily. Theseus was only able to find him via magic.

Obviously, this is only one interpretation of the mythology, and one that isn't particularly synergystic with 5e's interpretation.

[Boverk]

So I've been thinking about ridiculous things to do with the centaur and rider(mounted combat) combo.

Mounted combat means the centaur mount can't be targeted, so the centaur just needs to worry about AOE saving throws, right? It also gives your mount evasion.

Paladin rider for the +cha to all saves sounds nice. Oath of the Ancients would give you both resistance to spells

You could have the centaur be a monk for prof in all saving throws, stunning strike, and the ability to catch missiles(one ranged to the mount, all other attacks to the rider.

you can have the mount go swashbuckler 9 to be able to use Panache as an action to give your target disadvantage with attacks unless its targeting you, which your rider makes impossible to do. And Panache doesn't state a limit, so you can do one every turn. This could also make a nice grapple stomping build

Rogue Scout centaur would be incredibly mobile, and be great for the opening nova attack

Tempest cleric mount would be able to fly at will

Wizard mount could take as their spell master (or just cast)

Alter self...you're basically an awesome centaur jet-ski
reduce/enlarge person ...be large! your rider has advantage with melee attacks on anything medium or smaller
jump...bounce your way across the battlefield (centaur warlock can also do this at will)
spider climb...centaur wall-crawling mounted shenanigans
invisibility...invisible mount is just amusing.


War Magic would be a great choice for this, since on a reaction, you can give +4 to saving throws and get int to initiative, or abjuration wizard, since you could give your rider hit points.

[nickl_2000]

So I've been thinking about ridiculous things to do with the centaur and rider(mounted combat) combo.

Mounted combat means the centaur mount can't be targeted, so the centaur just needs to worry about AOE saving throws, right? It also gives your mount evasion.

Paladin rider for the +cha to all saves sounds nice. Oath of the Ancients would give you both resistance to spells

You could have the centaur be a monk for prof in all saving throws, stunning strike, and the ability to catch missiles(one ranged to the mount, all other attacks to the rider.

you can have the mount go swashbuckler 9 to be able to use Panache as an action to give your target disadvantage with attacks unless its targeting you, which your rider makes impossible to do. And Panache doesn't state a limit, so you can do one every turn. This could also make a nice grapple stomping build

Rogue Scout centaur would be incredibly mobile, and be great for the opening nova attack

Tempest cleric mount would be able to fly at will

Wizard mount could take as their spell master (or just cast)

Alter self...you're basically an awesome centaur jet-ski
reduce/enlarge person ...be large! your rider has advantage with melee attacks on anything medium or smaller
jump...bounce your way across the battlefield (centaur warlock can also do this at will)
spider climb...centaur wall-crawling mounted shenanigans
invisibility...invisible mount is just amusing.


War Magic would be a great choice for this, since on a reaction, you can give +4 to saving throws and get int to initiative, or abjuration wizard, since you could give your rider hit points.


What about Caviler with Unwavering Mark for the Centaur or Ancestral Guardian with the Ancestral Protectors feature. That's crazy powerful.

[Sigreid]

Some traditions put the Minotaur in the position of a victim. He was the creation of a vengeful god, who was essentially using the poor guy to piss off a king he didn't like. The Minotaur was put in the maze because he was different, and was made into a killing machine because that was the only thing he knew.

Personally, I like the idea that the Minotaur couldn't escape the maze because he didn't want to. It was pretty clear that the Athenian tributes were killed by the Minotaur, not by starvation. Thus, he must have been able to navigate the maze relatively easily. Theseus was only able to find him via magic.

Obviously, this is only one interpretation of the mythology, and one that isn't particularly synergystic with 5e's interpretation.

The recurring theme in Greek mythology is that the gods are easily offended and turn people into or otherwise create monsters to punish humans at the drop of a hat.

As far as the minotaur goes, in the maze he was going to be fed and was safe. Holding all the cards as it were. Given that if he left he would undoubtedly be murdered by a mob, his incentive was to stay.

[Boverk]

What about Caviler with Unwavering Mark for the Centaur or Ancestral Guardian with the Ancestral Protectors feature. That's crazy powerful.

I thought about Ancestral Guardian, but figured that Swashbuckler with Panache brought more to the table, with Reliable talent, better initiative, and cunning action.

Both would be good, but they do have limits on how often they can "taunt" Ancestral guardian has to be raging, and cavalier can do it strength mod times per day.

Also, since the swashbuckler gets the free disengage(Fancy Footwork) and dash as a bonus action(cunning action) and the rider isn't using their movement to move, neither would provoke attacks of opportunity, right?

so mobile Swashbuckler with a tanky Paladin on their back would be insane....take mobile feat for 100 feet of movement every turn, lance smiting their way to victory.

[the_brazenburn]

As far as the minotaur goes, in the maze he was going to be fed and was safe. Holding all the cards as it were. Given that if he left he would undoubtedly be murdered by a mob, his incentive was to stay.

Precisely. The fact that he stayed in the labyrinth reveals more about personal experience and common sense than it does about an inability to navigate mazes.

[Sigreid]

I thought about Ancestral Guardian, but figured that Swashbuckler with Panache brought more to the table, with Reliable talent, better initiative, and cunning action.

Both would be good, but they do have limits on how often they can "taunt" Ancestral guardian has to be raging, and cavalier can do it strength mod times per day.

Also, since the swashbuckler gets the free disengage(Fancy Footwork) and dash as a bonus action(cunning action) and the rider isn't using their movement to move, neither would provoke attacks of opportunity, right?

so mobile Swashbuckler with a tanky Paladin on their back would be insane....take mobile feat for 100 feet of movement every turn, lance smiting their way to victory.

The centaur would be good as the group wizard. Think about it, with his rider having the mounted combat feat you get to have a wizard with the ultimate tank protection. I also agree paladin is best for the rider to minimize the chance either succumbs to a spell.

[nickl_2000]

The centaur would be good as the group wizard. Think about it, with his rider having the mounted combat feat you get to have a wizard with the ultimate tank protection. I also agree paladin is best for the rider to minimize the chance either succumbs to a spell.

Just for fun, toss a saddle of the cavalier on top of the Centaur too.

[Willie the Duck]

I feel like minotaurs got dealt a bad hand with this. If my players want a minotaur, I'm going to offer them the first UA version, as I feel it allowed a bit more choice in how to play them with different classes, etc. This one feels like "yeah, fighter or barbarian, everything else is a bad match"; something I dislike intently. I'm not saying some races can't be *better* at certain roles, but it shouldn't feel like the full package of abilities locks you down. I mean, a minotaur sorcerer player shouldn't feel like their horns are a wasted utility, and the +2 Str was for naught.


Its no different from the other brutish races like half-orc or goliath, they are all optimised for barb/fighter, except minotaur is a bit worse.

A half-orc sorcerer gets their 1/day 'ignore being put down to 0 hp' effect, and presuming they melee attack at all, the extra crit dice eventually benefit them. a minotaur sorcerer may literally never dash into melee, and have a low enough total str that the reaction shove is never an optimal use of a reaction. However, you are basically right. My real issue is that even a featless, non-2wf, champion fighter (who thus almost never has any other uses for their bonus action or any non-OA reaction) will still have a hard time setting up these minor benefits in a useful way (unless someone is seeing something I don't).


Obviously, this is only one interpretation of the mythology, and one that isn't particularly synergystic with 5e's interpretation.


The recurring theme in Greek mythology is that the gods are easily offended and turn people into or otherwise create monsters to punish humans at the drop of a hat.

As far as the minotaur goes, in the maze he was going to be fed and was safe. Holding all the cards as it were. Given that if he left he would undoubtedly be murdered by a mob, his incentive was to stay.

I like the idea of minotaurs as cursed humans, rather than an entire race of the things. However, along with the hooved feet and such, D&D minotaurs seem to have clearly deviated from the mythological underpinnings quite a bit (and in Krynn they are... sailors for some reason?). Not that most Greek myth monsters really make sense in their old contexts once you make a whole race of them instead of them being one-offs.

[Logosloki]

I feel Goataurs should be the Dwarfen equivalent to a Centaur.

Centaurs being medium made me laugh for a good while, reading people's reactions just made me laugh harder. Equine Build doesn't actually make any sense because of it. Or, Equine build allows you to stack as many Centaurs as you would like. the whole party can ride on one square.

So, hooves. I think they should be d8 and/or versatile, that way they count as having 2 hooves for an attack or one double hoof oof. Since they aren't light they don't count for dual wielding but would you allow them for duelist? I'm thinking more about them because if a player wants to use their hooves as a primary weapon (and ranged weapons/reach weapons for the human half) I want them to feel like they can just go with it and feel powerful for choosing so over say a longsword. In this scenario assume that I would ask the player to call at the start of their turn if they were using human or horse half rather than allowing for mixed attacks.

[Boverk]

The centaur would be good as the group wizard. Think about it, with his rider having the mounted combat feat you get to have a wizard with the ultimate tank protection. I also agree paladin is best for the rider to minimize the chance either succumbs to a spell.

yeah, I think war wizard or abjuration wizard would be best for this (Or Theurgy Wizard if it makes it out of UA).

war wizard gets to use their reaction to give themselves a +4 to a saving throw, and abjuration gets to give themselves more hp, which they can use to take damage for their rider.

Divination would also be good for mind spike and counterspell shenanigans, coupled with clutch roll swaps

[Boverk]

I feel Goataurs should be the Dwarfen equivalent to a Centaur.

Centaurs being medium made me laugh for a good while, reading people's reactions just made me laugh harder. Equine Build doesn't actually make any sense because of it. Or, Equine build allows you to stack as many Centaurs as you would like. the whole party can ride on one square.

So, hooves. I think they should be d8 and/or versatile, that way they count as having 2 hooves for an attack or one double hoof oof. Since they aren't light they don't count for dual wielding but would you allow them for duelist? I'm thinking more about them because if a player wants to use their hooves as a primary weapon (and ranged weapons/reach weapons for the human half) I want them to feel like they can just go with it and feel powerful for choosing so over say a longsword. In this scenario assume that I would ask the player to call at the start of their turn if they were using human or horse half rather than allowing for mixed attacks.

The versatile trade off is giving up a shield for damage. if you make the hooves versatile, there would never be a reason do a non-versatile hoof attack, unless you required a dexterity check, or sacrificed some movement

[Knaight]

One could argue the Minotaur had an incredible sense of memory of the labyrinth from being trapped in there, but if there was no physically viable way to escape because leaving was never part of the option, it's not really fair to disallow a good memory.

On the other hand, that argument also basically acknowledges that the Minotaur didn't have a general perfect sense of direction, so much as that they knew the one specific maze that they lived in for their entire life. The only species trait involved there is basic memory.

[nickl_2000]

On the other hand, that argument also basically acknowledges that the Minotaur didn't have a general perfect sense of direction, so much as that they knew the one specific maze that they lived in for their entire life. The only species trait involved there is basic memory.

Wasn't the Labyrinth enchanted so that the maze was constantly changing? If it was, a basic memory wouldn't help with this.

[the_brazenburn]

Wasn't the Labyrinth enchanted so that the maze was constantly changing? If it was, a basic memory wouldn't help with this.

Depends on the story. Some traditions say that it was enchanted to change shape, or to misdirect people inside. Others just say that it was really big and complex.

Either way, though, the Minotaur would have needed one hell of an Int score to navigate it accurately, and it's pretty clear that he didn't. That makes it clear, at least to me, that Minotaurs should have some sort of "Labyrinthine Recall" ability.

IMO, of course.

[nickl_2000]

Depends on the story. Some traditions say that it was enchanted to change shape, or to misdirect people inside. Others just say that it was really big and complex.

Either way, though, the Minotaur would have needed one hell of an Int score to navigate it accurately, and it's pretty clear that he didn't. That makes it clear, at least to me, that Minotaurs should have some sort of "Labyrinthine Recall" ability.

IMO, of course.

Thank, my knowledge of Greek mythology is either 20 years old from studying it in school or from reading my kids the Percy Jackson books. Either way, it's not likely to be completely accurate.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Did anybody notice that centaurs can ride centaurs ?

[Ralanr]

Did anybody notice that centaurs can ride centaurs ?

Yes. It’s a tower of horses.

[Mortis_Elrod]

Ok question tho? Shadow monk centaur is being ridden by his friendly Shadow Sorcerer. Sorcerer creates darkness and centaur teleports them.

Does the centaur appear alone ? Does the sorcerer sit in your he air where he was go a moment before looking down and then drops like a cartoon?

[nickl_2000]

By the way, did anyone address the issue with how the heck a centaur wears normal armor? I mean a Minotaur makes sense since they are somewhat shaped the same way, but a centaur?

[Ralanr]

By the way, did anyone address the issue with how the heck a centaur wears normal armor? I mean a Minotaur makes sense since they are somewhat shaped the same way, but a centaur?

Some mix of human and horse armor.

[nickl_2000]

Some mix of human and horse armor.

I would think it would need an additional cost though. It certainly isn't just adjusting a few straps to fit correctly.

[Boverk]

By the way, did anyone address the issue with how the heck a centaur wears normal armor? I mean a Minotaur makes sense since they are somewhat shaped the same way, but a centaur?

Probably the same hand waving which makes a halfling's plate mail cost the same as a goliath's.

Basically, Smiths hate halflings, but love centaurs, so they get discounts/markups accordingly

[the_brazenburn]

I would think it would need an additional cost though. It certainly isn't just adjusting a few straps to fit correctly.

If it's half armor and half barding, split the difference between the costs and get double the price of ordinary armor.

That's how I'd rule it, at least.

[strangebloke]

If it's half armor and half barding, split the difference between the costs and get double the price of ordinary armor.

That's how I'd rule it, at least.

If you're shooting for realism its probably:

1/2 cost of human armor + full cost of barding

After all a centaur is most of a horse and half of a person.

I'm really loving this thread because my next campaign I'm running has both centaurs and minotaurs.

[Spacehamster]

Halfling riding a centaur, riding a moon Druid in horse form, riding a moon Druid in mammoth form that rides a level 20 wizard transformed into a dragon. :D

[Asmotherion]

So, the Wizards of the coast want to tell me that:

This is a Large Beast:
https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/t/black-horse-3706438.jpg

Wile this is a Medium Humanoid:
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/65/1c/c2/651cc2c40262c4bc4a09eeda7cf22088.jpg

I think something implyed is politically incorect here. :smalltongue: I knew the Wizards of the Coast were secretly Death Eaters!

[A Fat Dragon]

If Centaurs received a bonus to Dex instead of Strength, they would make very good Monks.

I could definitely see myself playing a Centaur Monk (Speed, Unarmored Defense, and Proficiency in all saving throws? Yes please) and one of my party members playing a Cavalier Fighter in the future.

[Finback]

(and in Krynn they are... sailors for some reason?).

Krynnish minotaurs are pretty much the most "modern" race in the world; they're pretty much a pastiche of the Graeco-Roman empires, complete with colosseums, senates, and a very heavy naval presence (living on an island chain). The island thing kind of precludes some sailing understanding. In terms of their military strategy, the sailors are also the landfall soldiers, so they would spend a fair amount of time at sea as well as on land, and pretty much almost every minotaur who can be a soldier will be one at some point, so sailing is a fairly common base skill for them.

[EvilAnagram]

The island thing kind of precludes some sailing understanding.

I would think that island living would necessitate sailing. Or are they Moana minotaurs?

[JakOfAllTirades]

I don't know about everyone else, but I'm taking notes for next month's UA feedback survey....

[Boverk]

I don't know about everyone else, but I'm taking notes for next month's UA feedback survey....

I have so much feedback

[Tectorman]

Wile this is a Medium Humanoid:
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/65/1c/c2/651cc2c40262c4bc4a09eeda7cf22088.jpg

See, I look at that and I totally buy her fitting into a 5-foot square and only having difficulty climbing due to her lower body rather than it being impossible. No more doubts here; WotC making playable Centaurs Medium is a very good idea that I hope stays all the way to print.

And yeah, maybe I'd care less if 5E were entirely "Theater of the Mind", but if a grid's involved, then I simply don't want to be potentially surrounded by 12 enemies, and I don't feel like I need to threaten the same (or 32 squares with reach).

As for the whole "mobile tower of Centaurs", I feel like that would be mitigated by their carrying capacity alone. Except for outlier circumstances, they're only carrying Str score x 15 x 2, which caps at 600 lbs. That's, what, maybe one extra Centaur, plus both of their gear. But even then, their Equine Build allows "A Medium or smaller creature". "A" means one, no plurals. Though I do agree that the language about how they're not a controlled mount needs to explicitly describe how mounted combat works or if it doesn't at all (as I don't believe it's meant to here).

[Ralanr]

If Centaurs received a bonus to Dex instead of Strength, they would make very good Monks.

I could definitely see myself playing a Centaur Monk (Speed, Unarmored Defense, and Proficiency in all saving throws? Yes please) and one of my party members playing a Cavalier Fighter in the future.

Centaurs with wall running would be hilarious.

[Angelalex242]

So, the Wizards of the coast want to tell me that:

This is a Large Beast:
https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/t/black-horse-3706438.jpg

Wile this is a Medium Humanoid:
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/65/1c/c2/651cc2c40262c4bc4a09eeda7cf22088.jpg

I think something implyed is politically incorect here. :smalltongue: I knew the Wizards of the Coast were secretly Death Eaters!

I know Season 8 Dawn when I see her! Well met, fellow Buffy fan!

[Laserlight]

I think giving the centaurs a racial charge ability was...not the best design decision. It's basically saying "WOTC really wants you to play centaurs as melee fighters. Those of you who think centaurs should be skirmishing archers, or squishy casters, well, your racial ability is never going to do anything for you."

I think the charge bonus should have been a racial Feat instead.

[DracoKnight]

I think giving the centaurs a racial charge ability was...not the best design decision. It's basically saying "WOTC really wants you to play centaurs as melee fighters. Those of you who think centaurs should be skirmishing archers, or squishy casters, well, your racial ability is never going to do anything for you."

I think the charge bonus should have been a racial Feat instead.

I mean, the 5e races are full of those design decisions. And Centaur is kinda designed to be a melee fighter anyway, getting a substantial STR boost.

[LudicSavant]

I mean, the 5e races are full of those design decisions.

Doing something lame more often does not make it stop being lame.

[DracoKnight]

Doing something lame more often does not make it stop being lame.

I didn't say it doesn't. I'm just pointing out that it tends towards the trappings of 5e racial design.

[Kaliayev]

During today's Dragon+, JC talked about experimenting with the application of hybrid nature to other PC races (monsters like night hag as well, theoretically). Potentially, an aasimar would be hybrid human/celestial, an elf would be hybrid humanoid/fey, etc. I'm curious what people think about this approach. Personally, I think it can be neat from a narrative perspective, but very problematic when applied to the broader mechanics landscape. For example, would someone who cast detect evil and good in an elven city just be completely overloaded with sensory input? To what extent is your party hindered when fighting a demon with a tiefling in your party? I think it would make the game clunkier, which runs counter to RAF.

Discussion about hybrid nature (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/261767858?t=48m48s)

[Regitnui]

During today's Dragon+, JC talked about experimenting with the application of hybrid nature to other PC races (monsters like night hag as well, theoretically).

I'm of the opinion that they had the game almost as perfect as D&D can be at launch, and only need content (settings, race options, feats) to make this one if the best editions ever. My rule of thumb is: If it makes things more complicated and/or raises the barrier to entry, it's a bad idea. Hybrid nature on core races? Does both. "Mearlshawk" initiative just made things more complicated. Now putting the complexity as optional is better. I have no objection to monster races like minotaurs and centaurs being complicated, but the core game should be as simple as possible for newbies while still keeping crunch.

[nickl_2000]

JC has seen a lot of grief on twitter about Centaur's being medium sized.

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/996546635072126976
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/996530792158318592
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/996555801727647745

[DracoKnight]

At this point, I don't think it's actually gonna be a huge deal for centaurs to be Medium. They're just going to take up a 5ftx10ft area on the grid. For gear and all else that matters mechanically anyway, they're not gonna need anything more than medium-sized shiz.

EDIT: I'm more annoyed that Minotaurs don't get Powerful Build and Darkvision. Unless I'm forgetting something and they don't actually get Darkvision as a monster.

[Ralanr]

At this point, I don't think it's actually gonna be a huge deal for centaurs to be Medium. They're just going to take up a 5ftx10ft area on the grid. For gear and all else that matters mechanically anyway, they're not gonna need anything more than medium-sized shiz.

EDIT: I'm more annoyed that Minotaurs don't get Powerful Build and Darkvision. Unless I'm forgetting something and they don't actually get Darkvision as a monster.

They do actually. Horns must be taking to much of the power budget.

[strangebloke]

They do actually. Horns must be taking to much of the power budget.

I would get rid of the charge, personally, or combine the charge and the horns into one thing.

[Chaosmancer]

I'm of the opinion that they had the game almost as perfect as D&D can be at launch, and only need content (settings, race options, feats) to make this one if the best editions ever. My rule of thumb is: If it makes things more complicated and/or raises the barrier to entry, it's a bad idea. Hybrid nature on core races? Does both. "Mearlshawk" initiative just made things more complicated. Now putting the complexity as optional is better. I have no objection to monster races like minotaurs and centaurs being complicated, but the core game should be as simple as possible for newbies while still keeping crunch.

I think I agree it should be an optional rule, not a base rule.

However, I love the idea of this optional rule A LOT. I think it will help the tone of certain things. I've actually played with this when people used Divine Sense or Primal Awareness, letting them know that Tieglings or creatures corrupted by the Far Realms give off a faint signature. Getting something more official that might give me more ideas on how to expand upon that, or feats or boons that might reflect that "corrupting" influence of extraplanar forces. That'd be kind of awesome

[Willie the Duck]

They do actually. Horns must be taking to much of the power budget.

Really? These horn rules?

If they were convenient d10+str weapons with shoves you might reasonably ever use I might see it. This, no. I know what I'm putting down for my feedback.

[Regitnui]

I think I agree it should be an optional rule, not a base rule.

However, I love the idea of this optional rule A LOT. I think it will help the tone of certain things. I've actually played with this when people used Divine Sense or Primal Awareness, letting them know that Tieglings or creatures corrupted by the Far Realms give off a faint signature. Getting something more official that might give me more ideas on how to expand upon that, or feats or boons that might reflect that "corrupting" influence of extraplanar forces. That'd be kind of awesome

Oh, I like that idea, but it should definitely be put in a DM's options section, along with how it alters detect spells. Like do tieflings, aasimar and elves now trigger detect good and evil?

[Finback]

For example, would someone who cast detect evil and good in an elven city just be completely overloaded with sensory input? To what extent is your party hindered when fighting a demon with a tiefling in your party? I think it would make the game clunkier, which runs counter to RAF.



For the former, rather than overwhelm them with sensory overload, it'd be more like just a wall of manageable noise. You couldn't *pinpoint* something if you're surrounded by it. It'd be like picking one particular wildebeest with an odd pattern out of a migration. Or picking out a single out of tune vuvuzela at the World Cup.

[HolyDraconus]

Thinking about it some, the hybrid type is a surprisingly good way of introducing vampirism and lycanthropy into official PC usage. I can see thralls, minions, half dragons, half elementals and a number of other things using it as a gateway to player availability.

[Regitnui]

Or picking out a single out of tune vuvuzela at the World Cup.

So basically a demon in disguise just needs to stock their city with tieflings, and bam, undetectable by magic. After all, there's no such thing as an out-of-tune vuvuzela.

[Glorthindel]

For example, would someone who cast detect evil and good in an elven city just be completely overloaded with sensory input? To what extent is your party hindered when fighting a demon with a tiefling in your party? I think it would make the game clunkier, which runs counter to RAF.

Heh, thats a point - they specifically went out of their way to change Detect Good and Evil to remove its ability to detect the alignments of player characters and NPC's, and now are looking to wedge that problem back in again.

[Tectorman]

Heh, thats a point - they specifically went out of their way to change Detect Good and Evil to remove its ability to detect the alignments of player characters and NPC's, and now are looking to wedge that problem back in again.

I agree that's a problem with races that would be both Humanoid and a type that triggers Detect Good and Evil spells, but is the combination of Humanoid and Monstrosity a problem? I was taking it as a workaround to low-level PCs being immune to Charm-, Hold-, and Dominate Person, and I don't think Monstrosity has other issues the way Celestial, Fiend, and Fey do.

[Chaosmancer]

Heh, thats a point - they specifically went out of their way to change Detect Good and Evil to remove its ability to detect the alignments of player characters and NPC's, and now are looking to wedge that problem back in again.

Wasn't that problem more of a "the vizier registered as evil, kill him, he's the one who poisoned the Prince" or a "the rogue registered as evil, I'm good, I must smite him as my god demands"?

I never heard of it as a "the demon is hiding in this crowd but I keep getting false positives from the warlock" type of problem.

Honestly, I think the bigger thing is that they should have renamed those spells, but the boat has sailed

[NaughtyTiger]

Mearls has stated that they basically can't do a straight-up Large creature because the extra damage die for Large weapons would overwhelm everything else and make them too good as brawlers. (That's a rough paraphrase, obviously; he went into more detail on one of the Happy Fun Hour streams. Maybe the one with the Giant Soul Sorcerer.)

Anyway, this is UA, so here's the time to give your feedback. Personally, I think the centaur in particular—with her normal, human-sized hands—is a perfect candidate to try out templating such as "this creature is Large, but counts as Medium for weapon sizes" instead of "this creature is Medium, but counts as Large for carrying capacity".

EDIT: Out of curiosity, does anybody have any other statements from the designers about non-weapon-dice-related issues with Large PCs? I suppose they would also have a troublingly large threat range, especially when wielding reach weapons.


Does the rule book explicitly say Large creatures get double dice?
I thought it was design guidance.
I mean, Enlarge spell doesn't double your weapon die.

[Finback]

So basically a demon in disguise just needs to stock their city with tieflings, and bam, undetectable by magic. After all, there's no such thing as an out-of-tune vuvuzela.

If the demon is dumb enough to try to hide in a city with a heavy alignment skew to good, they probably deserved a party detecting them. And if the party is silly enough to try detect evil in a city full of a huge abundance of alignments (or worse, say, a city in the Abyss or nine Hells) then they probably deserve the horrible feedback of a billion vuvuzelas.

(Is there such a thing as an *in*-tune vuvuzela?)

[Dr. Cliché]

Centaurs being medium seems really silly to me.

I'm also dubious of them being able to climb at all. But maybe I just want to see a party having to create a rudimentary pulley system to get their centaur friend up the cliff. :smallwink:

[Glorthindel]

"the rogue registered as evil, I'm good, I must smite him as my god demands"?

I never heard of it as a "the demon is hiding in this crowd but I keep getting false positives from the warlock" type of problem.


The problem is the combnination of the two - "the demon is hiding in this crowd and while looking for him, I've just discovered the tiefling/elf/genasi is registered as evil, I'm good, I must smite him as my god demands".

When they altered Detect Good and Evil, it removed the trick of using the spell to sweep the party (and every NPC interacted with) for evil. This was a good change in my mind. If they retcon these races into being dual-natured (and into a nature that is detectable by the spell), then it means those races have a severe drawback for players, since they are "exposed" to alignment-checking, while other races aren't. Its probably a minor thing, but worth considering.

[PhoenixPhyre]

The problem is the combnination of the two - "the demon is hiding in this crowd and while looking for him, I've just discovered the tiefling/elf/genasi is registered as evil, I'm good, I must smite him as my god demands".

When they altered Detect Good and Evil, it removed the trick of using the spell to sweep the party (and every NPC interacted with) for evil. This was a good change in my mind. If they retcon these races into being dual-natured (and into a nature that is detectable by the spell), then it means those races have a severe drawback for players, since they are "exposed" to alignment-checking, while other races aren't. Its probably a minor thing, but worth considering.

I wish they had renamed those spells or abilities--"Detect Abnormal" or something. Because they don't detect alignments. There's only a single ability that actually mechanically tells what something's alignment is--the sprite's heart sight. Detect Evil and Good pings on a lot of things that aren't of fixed alignment--aberrations, elementals, and fey don't have fixed good or evil alignments. So anyone saying "it pings, so it's evil" with that spell is mistaken.

Divine Sense (the paladin ability) does only ping on celestials, undead, and fiends. So you'd get tricky consequences there if you mixed those creature types with humanoids. Monstrosity, aberration, elemental, plant, construct, and fey would have their own issues, but not the "evil = smite" issue.

Edit: I have a homebrew class (in the Base Class Contest) that has a ribbon ability that changes their type. Doesn't hybridize it, changes it to aberration. From what I can tell, it only affects a few spells and makes them ping on detect evil and good.

[Sigreid]

Centaurs being medium seems really silly to me.

I'm also dubious of them being able to climb at all. But maybe I just want to see a party having to create a rudimentary pulley system to get their centaur friend up the cliff. :smallwink:

Don't see why they can't just say centaurs are large but treated as medium for weapons and reach instead of they are medium and treated as large for carrying capacity. Just flip the script and it's fine.

[Dr. Cliché]

Don't see why they can't just say centaurs are large but treated as medium for weapons and reach instead of they are medium and treated as large for carrying capacity. Just flip the script and it's fine.

Yeah, that would make a lot more sense.

Still wouldn't let them climb, though. :smallwink:

[Sigreid]

Yeah, that would make a lot more sense.

Still wouldn't let them climb, though. :smallwink:

Depends on what they're climbing. A sheer wall, probably not. A normal cliff with outcroppings and such, maybe.

[Dr. Cliché]

Depends on what they're climbing. A sheer wall, probably not. A normal cliff with outcroppings and such, maybe.

I think their rear end would cause too much trouble even on a cliff with outcroppings. It would basically act like a leaver, pulling their top half away from any handholds.

[Chaosmancer]

The problem is the combnination of the two - "the demon is hiding in this crowd and while looking for him, I've just discovered the tiefling/elf/genasi is registered as evil, I'm good, I must smite him as my god demands".

When they altered Detect Good and Evil, it removed the trick of using the spell to sweep the party (and every NPC interacted with) for evil. This was a good change in my mind. If they retcon these races into being dual-natured (and into a nature that is detectable by the spell), then it means those races have a severe drawback for players, since they are "exposed" to alignment-checking, while other races aren't. Its probably a minor thing, but worth considering.

But they wouldn't be exposed to alignment checking. All the spell will do is tell you they have a fiendish aura.

Man, that could do with some easy comedy with an oblivious player.

Paladin: "Sir, are you aware one of your waitresses has the aura of... A DEVIL!"

Barkeep: "Which one? The blonde halfling lass or the red-skinned lady with the horns who makes fire spit from her eyes when Pete gets handsy?"

Paladin: "The one with the devil horns.... Um..."

Barkeep: "Think that there might be what we call 'a clue'"

[Sigreid]

I think their rear end would cause too much trouble even on a cliff with outcroppings. It would basically act like a leaver, pulling their top half away from any handholds.

I keep thinking of goats. While I realize horses and goats are not the same I think the sapient brain may be able to compensate.

[Personification]

But they wouldn't be exposed to alignment checking. All the spell will do is tell you they have a fiendish aura.

Man, that could do with some easy comedy with an oblivious player.

Paladin: "Sir, are you aware one of your waitresses has the aura of... A DEVIL!"

Barkeep: "Which one? The blonde halfling lass or the red-skinned lady with the horns who makes fire spit from her eyes when Pete gets handsy?"

Paladin: "The one with the devil horns.... Um..."

Barkeep: "Think that there might be what we call 'a clue'"

Actually, the Halfling also would have had a fiendish aura, but the paladin couldn't detect it through her lead sheet.

[Tectorman]

I just realized what a missed opportunity the title of this thread for the May UA is.

Oh, well. May the Horse be with you all!

[Tectorman]

What about this as a solution to the Large/Medium Centaur issue?

Dwarves, Gnomes, Halflings, and Elves have multiple subraces (Elves are getting more now). So let's just have multiple breeds of Centaur. Some Large but wielding Medium weapons, some Medium but with a Large's carrying capacity. And then we can just say that the MM Centaurs are the Large breed version.

[Temperjoke]

Here's my ultra-important, desperate-to-know-the-answer-for question about centaurs: Do they still get a penalty for using a lance in melee, and are two hands still required? Cause I would love to have my Shining Force 2 centaur knights/paladins! :D

((visual references here (https://sf2.shiningforcecentral.com/characters/shining-force-ii/chester/) and here (https://sf2.shiningforcecentral.com/characters/shining-force-ii/eric/) and here (https://sf2.shiningforcecentral.com/characters/shining-force-ii/rick/) and here (https://sf2.shiningforcecentral.com/characters/shining-force-ii/higins/) ))

[strangebloke]

Here's my ultra-important, desperate-to-know-the-answer-for question about centaurs: Do they still get a penalty for using a lance in melee, and are two hands still required? Cause I would love to have my Shining Force 2 centaur knights/paladins! :D

((visual references here (https://sf2.shiningforcecentral.com/characters/shining-force-ii/chester/) and here (https://sf2.shiningforcecentral.com/characters/shining-force-ii/eric/) and here (https://sf2.shiningforcecentral.com/characters/shining-force-ii/rick/) and here (https://sf2.shiningforcecentral.com/characters/shining-force-ii/higins/) ))

I know, right!

The way the rules are written, I think that they can use a lance in one hand just fine, since they "always count as mounted." but I'm pretty sure that they have the same disadvantage in melee as everyone else.

In any case, Shining Force centaurs are probably medium sized, so that's no concern, and the race seems particularly suited for a knight-type build.

[MeeposFire]

I know, right!

The way the rules are written, I think that they can use a lance in one hand just fine, since they "always count as mounted." but I'm pretty sure that they have the same disadvantage in melee as everyone else.

In any case, Shining Force centaurs are probably medium sized, so that's no concern, and the race seems particularly suited for a knight-type build.

Honestly my Shining Force centaurs almost always used throwing spears rather than lances. I did have both on them but I rarely even bothered to switch them as the spear was almost as good or better quite a bit of the time.

[Temperjoke]

Honestly my Shining Force centaurs almost always used throwing spears rather than lances. I did have both on them but I rarely even bothered to switch them as the spear was almost as good or better quite a bit of the time.

See, I often had them on the front end, while the full ranged people were behind them. Except for my pegasus knights and other flyers, they were in a flanking group usually.

[MeeposFire]

See, I often had them on the front end, while the full ranged people were behind them. Except for my pegasus knights and other flyers, they were in a flanking group usually.

In SHinging Force one centaurs were my primary range attacks since I found archers to not be much better and teh centaurs could attack up close.

In the second game I only had a couple so I ended up needing them more as "archers" than ever before. Also I think the best weapon in the game for them as a spear rather than lance so I would not need to bother with the lance.

[Knaight]

I keep thinking of goats. While I realize horses and goats are not the same I think the sapient brain may be able to compensate.

The sapient brain doesn't mean much for climbing skill, at least outside of bringing tool use into it. Instinctive climbers routinely do quite well, as can be seen by the sort of ridiculous movement squirrels can get up to on vertical surfaces. There's just not a lot that gets around a human not being able to pull the weight of a horse up a cliff by climbing hand holds while the load is awkwardly distributed, or horses just being terrible climbers (as I pointed out upthread, horses are not mountain goats).

You can, of course, just choose to ignore this and have centaurs climb anyways. It just runs into some really ridiculous mental imagery that's going to annoy some people.

[SaintRidley]

OK, I get that part of the design bible they have has "No PC's larger than Medium" in great big, bold, triple-underlined letters, but this part of the Centaur entry is ridiculous:

"In size, they are comparable to a human rider mounted on a horse"

"Your size is Medium, yet you tower over most other humanoids."

Just bite the bullet already. Put a big asterix like you did with flying PC races that "Available with participating DM's only" or just crumple the size rules up into a ball and throw them out altogether!

Agreed. I find it patently silly that PC Minotaurs or Centaurs are different size categories from their Monster Manual cousins. This kind of thing is always an instant turn-off, never going to use it at my table, thing for me.

[Luccan]

Hmm... I don't like Minotaurs losing Labyrinthine Recall, it fits much better with the lore of the Minotaur and really isn't OP or anything. There should be something that ties them into The Minotaur and its maze, in my opinion. Advantage on Survival checks to find your way back to anywhere you've been?

I think I'd really like subraces for Minotaurs and Centaurs. I'd really like more variety if these get made into playable races (I'm not crazy about the lack of subraces for races outside core). Archer Centaurs and Minotaurs who get navigation abilities would be nice.

[WhismurWanders]

Hmm... I don't like Minotaurs losing Labyrinthine Recall, it fits much better with the lore of the Minotaur and really isn't OP or anything. There should be something that ties them into The Minotaur and its maze, in my opinion. Advantage on Survival checks to find your way back to anywhere you've been?

The whole point of Daedalus's labyrinth was that the Minotaur wasn't able to navigate it though, functioning as a good way to trap both the sacrifices and the Minotaur inside.

[the_brazenburn]

The whole point of Daedalus's labyrinth was that the Minotaur wasn't able to navigate it though, functioning as a good way to trap both the sacrifices and the Minotaur inside.

We've already had this discussion.

The Minotaur could navigate the maze, but not get out. Probably it was either sealed beyond the capabilities of his Str score, or the exit was too small for him to fit through, or the Minotaur simply didn't want to leave. Whichever is true, it could still find its way around; otherwise the Athenian tributes would have died of starvation rather than being mauled by the Minotaur.

[Luccan]

We've already had this discussion.

The Minotaur could navigate the maze, but not get out. Probably it was either sealed beyond the capabilities of his Str score, or the exit was too small for him to fit through, or the Minotaur simply didn't want to leave. Whichever is true, it could still find its way around; otherwise the Athenian tributes would have died of starvation rather than being mauled by the Minotaur.

I'm going to have to agree. It was the Minotaur's prison because there wasn't a way for him to bust out, not because he couldn't find the exit. Especially considering the thing would have to be sealed in some manner to prevent escape by his victims. I've always thought it would be more like a pit. Drop them down, leave them to die as they're hunted down in endless hallways.

[Vorpal Crowbar]

To illustrate just how comical the Medium-sized Centaur is, it can ride a horse. While being (fluff-wise but not mechanically) as big as a horse, carrying as much as a horse, and bearing a Medium-sized rider, which can be another Centaur. Which can have another Centaur on its back. And so on and so forth.

Wow this is stupid.

I laughed really hard at this - yeah its a bad design, at least it is a playtest. Hopefully they will scrap it and start over


VC

[MaxWilson]

The sapient brain doesn't mean much for climbing skill, at least outside of bringing tool use into it. Instinctive climbers routinely do quite well, as can be seen by the sort of ridiculous movement squirrels can get up to on vertical surfaces. There's just not a lot that gets around a human not being able to pull the weight of a horse up a cliff by climbing hand holds while the load is awkwardly distributed, or horses just being terrible climbers (as I pointed out upthread, horses are not mountain goats).

You can, of course, just choose to ignore this and have centaurs climb anyways. It just runs into some really ridiculous mental imagery that's going to annoy some people.

That's not unique to this UA though. Per 5E PHB rules, even regular MM centaurs, horses, and even hippos can climb trees almost as fast as they can walk on solid ground--even as birds and dragons drift through the skies barely faster than hot air balloons.

Anyway, the blame goes on the PHB climbing rules.

[MaxWilson]

We've already had this discussion.

The Minotaur could navigate the maze, but not get out. Probably it was either sealed beyond the capabilities of his Str score, or the exit was too small for him to fit through, or the Minotaur simply didn't want to leave. Whichever is true, it could still find its way around; otherwise the Athenian tributes would have died of starvation rather than being mauled by the Minotaur.

Then why make it a maze instead of just a cage? Where's the added value of the labyrinthine complexity?

[PhoenixPhyre]

Then why make it a maze instead of just a cage? Where's the added value of the labyrinthine complexity?

As I understand it, the labyrinth was ceremonial rather than functional. There have been several cultures with "mazes" that have no dead ends, no wrong turns, just a complex spiral in to the center. For symbolic/religious reasons.

[Knaight]

That's not unique to this UA though. Per 5E PHB rules, even regular MM centaurs, horses, and even hippos can climb trees almost as fast as they can walk on solid ground--even as birds and dragons drift through the skies barely faster than hot air balloons.

Anyway, the blame goes on the PHB climbing rules.

That's fair, but if they're going to bring in new climbing rules for the centaur (which they did) they might as well just hard ban it.

[MaxWilson]

That's fair, but if they're going to bring in new climbing rules for the centaur (which they did) they might as well just hard ban it.

Absolutely.

I could also see a soft ban along the lines of "disadvantage on all climbing checks that require arms and hands, and a DC 15+ Athletics check for every 10' of elevation climbed or fall." So certain exceptional centaurs might still be able to climb trees at some risk, which is probably amazing to see. (Perhaps the amazing centaur climbs in hexapedal fashion using hooves as quasi-hands, like a human acrobat juggling umbrellas with their feet.)

[Dao_Pun]

i am now obliged to make a Minotaur shadow monk that runs like naruto...

[LudicSavant]

I laughed really hard at this - yeah its a bad design, at least it is a playtest. Hopefully they will scrap it and start over


VC

Yeah, honestly I think they both should be remade from scratch. It's even a bad design if you ignore all the Medium shenanigans. Just take a look at the Minotaur... another bland pigeonholed race. Oooof.

[EvilAnagram]

Yeah, honestly I think they both should be remade from scratch. It's even a bad design if you ignore all the Medium shenanigans. Just take a look at the Minotaur... another bland pigeonholed race. Oooof.
Why do you say that?

[LudicSavant]

Why do you say that?

Many of the reasons have been mentioned by others in the thread already.

[EvilAnagram]

Many of the reasons have been mentioned by others in the thread already.
Most people have been talking about the medium size and arguing whether the Labyrinthine recall should come back. Scrapping the entire thing and starting over seems extreme.

[MaxWilson]

Most people have been talking about the medium size and arguing whether the Labyrinthine recall should come back. Scrapping the entire thing and starting over seems extreme.

Also the relative uselessness of horns--though I think they are wrong about that despite the low damage. Grapplers always appreciate natural attacks, and a reaction shove is interesting for melee kiting and tanking both. Also useful for breaking free of being grappled, since Shove is the standard countermeasure for breaking a grapple if you have extra attacks.

Minotaurs in this UA are better than Goliaths and Dragonborns at least.

[Willie the Duck]

Also the relative uselessness of horns--though I think they are wrong about that despite the low damage. Grapplers always appreciate natural attacks, and a reaction shove is interesting for melee kiting and tanking both. Also useful for breaking free of being grappled, since Shove is the standard countermeasure for breaking a grapple if you have extra attacks.

The basic 'having a natural 1d6+str' attack is good. Straight-up good in an obvious way much like it is for lizardfolk (and yes, is great in a grapple). The bonus action and reaction action uses, however, are pretty niche. Yes, every fighter who has ever been 35' from their opposition had bemoaned that they have to take their move and a dash action to get to their opponents, and being able to dish out d6+str that round is better than nothing. But that's it, better than nothing. The shove... well you bring up a good point about grapple-breaking. If I was convinced that was the intended result I might consider it better. The bigger problem, from my perspective, is that the most comparable race IMO is half-orc (same stat bonuses and intimidation skill, same social role as 'uncivilized traditional villain race who just as often subverts that'), and their bonus abilities are useful for any build (1/LR ignore dropping to 0 hp), and useful for any combat build (increased crit). Compare that to these rather... 'hard to consistently make use of' is the way I'd put it.


Minotaurs in this UA are better than Goliaths and Dragonborns at least.

Okay. And to normal orcs, and some other routinely declared suboptimal races. Fair point.

[Sigreid]

As I understand it, the labyrinth was ceremonial rather than functional. There have been several cultures with "mazes" that have no dead ends, no wrong turns, just a complex spiral in to the center. For symbolic/religious reasons.

I saw a documentary that said they found an ancient palace on the appropriate island that was so massive it was, in effect a labyrinth, with evidence of cannibalism. In all likelihood the myth was a story that explained the existence of what later people found.

[MaxWilson]

The bonus action and reaction action uses, however, are pretty niche. Yes, every fighter who has ever been 35' from their opposition had bemoaned that they have to take their move and a dash action to get to their opponents, and being able to dish out d6+str that round is better than nothing. But that's it, better than nothing. The shove... well you bring up a good point about grapple-breaking. If I was convinced that was the intended result I might consider it better. The bigger problem, from my perspective, is that the most comparable race IMO is half-orc (same stat bonuses and intimidation skill, same social role as 'uncivilized traditional villain race who just as often subverts that'), and their bonus abilities are useful for any build (1/LR ignore dropping to 0 hp), and useful for any combat build (increased crit). Compare that to these rather... 'hard to consistently make use of' is the way I'd put it.


The reaction shove can also be used to get allies out of trouble (shove enemy out of attack range so squishy ally can run away without taking opportunity attack) and as a form of pseudo-Mobile feat to avoid OAs yourself. It's definitely competitive with half-orc, whose stand-out ability is useless unless you're both overmatched (enemy is able to hammer you down to zero HP) but not too overmatched (else enemy will insta-kill you and you get no benefit) and is basically only as strong as a first-level Healing Word spell. I'll take an at-will reaction shove instead, please, with a side order of better grapple + shield + attack and a free charge option.

[Willie the Duck]

I'll take an at-will reaction shove instead, please, with a side order of better grapple + shield + attack and a free charge option.

Walk me through that, if you will. What build and combat situation would you put that on, and how would it go?

[MaxWilson]

Walk me through that, if you will. What build and combat situation would you put that on, and how would it go?

I'm on mobile so briefly:

Melee fighters are never really strong per se in 5e, so this is more of a casual fun character than a highly professional monster killer, but something like: Marcus Daedalus Carnifex, retired minotaur centurion. Samurai, GWM + Healer feats, Defense style. Sometimes greatsword, sometimes warhammer + shield. Longbow for backup. Proficient in Stealth, Perception, Athletics, Intimidation, Animal Handling. Stats around S 17 D 12 C 14 I 10 W 9 C 11. Bit of a temper problem, which is why he never made it to high rank and in fact took early retirement. Temper shows only in high-pressure situations though. (Crease/Sneakers model.) In adventuring mostly for the excitement and the easy cash (when you survive).

Basically acts as party tank. Gets in the way of monsters, shoves them away from squishies, hits things with greatsword and/or grabs them and slams them on their back and gores them.

Pretty straightforward really, which is really the whole point of the character.

Does that answer your question or do you need more detail on what a fight looks like with a whole party plus this guy?

[Finback]

I saw a documentary that said they found an ancient palace on the appropriate island that was so massive it was, in effect a labyrinth, with evidence of cannibalism. In all likelihood the myth was a story that explained the existence of what later people found.

I'm quite curious to learn more. Closest I can find is:

"In the 2000s, archaeologists explored other potential sites of the labyrinth.[24] Oxford University geographer Nicholas Howarth believes that 'Evans's hypothesis that the palace of Knossos is also the Labyrinth must be treated sceptically.'[24] Howarth and his team conducted a search of an underground complex known as the Skotino cave but concluded that it was formed naturally. Another contender is a series of underground tunnels at Gortyn, accessed by a narrow crack but expanding into interlinking caverns. Unlike the Skotino cave, these caverns have smooth walls and columns, and appear to have been at least partially man-made. This site corresponds to an unusual labyrinth symbol on a 16th-century map of Crete contained in a book of maps in the library of Christ Church, Oxford. A map of the caves themselves was produced by the French in 1821. The site was also used by German soldiers to store ammunition during the Second World War. Howarth's investigation was shown on a documentary[25] produced for the National Geographic Channel." - from the wikipedia entry on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labyrinth, but no mention of cannibalism..*





*Sam: Curious... What could account for such a bizarre fluctuation in the populace? War? Famine? Rampant cannibalism?
Max (getting excited): Cannibalism! I vote cannibalism!

[Willie the Duck]

Pretty straightforward really, which is really the whole point of the character.

Does that answer your question or do you need more detail on what a fight looks like with a whole party plus this guy?

If you have the time. I wasn't looking for what personality you would play this guy as, I was looking for the set up where you would actually be able to routinely use these bonus and reaction based abilities (or main attack unarmeds, although that's pretty obvious-'when grappling or disarmed'). Broad strokes would be fine (so like 'in a party with squishy spellcasters and the DM routinely has the monster swarm over the front line, the minotaur would be able to...').

The fundamental disconnect is that I don't see these abilities being usable particularly often, and apparently you do.

[Sigreid]

I'm quite curious to learn more. Closest I can find is:

"In the 2000s, archaeologists explored other potential sites of the labyrinth.[24] Oxford University geographer Nicholas Howarth believes that 'Evans's hypothesis that the palace of Knossos is also the Labyrinth must be treated sceptically.'[24] Howarth and his team conducted a search of an underground complex known as the Skotino cave but concluded that it was formed naturally. Another contender is a series of underground tunnels at Gortyn, accessed by a narrow crack but expanding into interlinking caverns. Unlike the Skotino cave, these caverns have smooth walls and columns, and appear to have been at least partially man-made. This site corresponds to an unusual labyrinth symbol on a 16th-century map of Crete contained in a book of maps in the library of Christ Church, Oxford. A map of the caves themselves was produced by the French in 1821. The site was also used by German soldiers to store ammunition during the Second World War. Howarth's investigation was shown on a documentary[25] produced for the National Geographic Channel." - from the wikipedia entry on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labyrinth, but no mention of cannibalism..*





*Sam: Curious... What could account for such a bizarre fluctuation in the populace? War? Famine? Rampant cannibalism?
Max (getting excited): Cannibalism! I vote cannibalism!

I'd direct you to the documentary if I could. It was a few years ago and I've pretty much already said what stuck.

[dreast]

Anyone else notice that these centaur rules make decent rules for Planescape Bariaurs as well, for those trying for 5e planescape? Maybe with a "goatlike build" racial ability instead of an "equine build" (goats are great climbers, incidentally, so maybe just take away both the positives and negatives of equine build?), and with horns instead of hooves (merely a flavor change)? With this and the gith races in MToF, Aasimar in Volo's, and Tieflings in the PHB, that would just leave the rogue modrons.

More modrons, WoTC! More modrons!

[Boverk]

The survey for feedback is up now, so go give your feedback on the centaurs and minotaurs!

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/survey-centaurs-and-minotaurs

[Sigreid]

The survey for feedback is up now, so go give your feedback on the centaurs and minotaurs!

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/survey-centaurs-and-minotaurs
Thanks. I basically told them centaurs should be large with a trait they are treated as medium for weapons and reach.

[Joe the Rat]

Indeed. I had a similar thought for them. I also suggested they give some actual numbers to the size, or possibly referencing specific med-size equines (some of which are in the damn books) if they insist on the medium size.

(I've seen examples of smaller mount-worthy horses, enough so to satisfy me on the range of sizes... but they REALLY need to make it clear that there are different types of centaur for that)

[MaxWilson]

If you have the time. I wasn't looking for what personality you would play this guy as, I was looking for the set up where you would actually be able to routinely use these bonus and reaction based abilities (or main attack unarmeds, although that's pretty obvious-'when grappling or disarmed'). Broad strokes would be fine (so like 'in a party with squishy spellcasters and the DM routinely has the monster swarm over the front line, the minotaur would be able to...').

The fundamental disconnect is that I don't see these abilities being usable particularly often, and apparently you do.

In a party with a front line/back line distinction (so e.g. pure class wizards and lore bards, with AC in the 11-15 range, or else wide level disparities like levels 3 and 11 in the same party), when a monster threatens the back line, move to the back line and shove the monster away from the squishy.

If a new player or less-skilled player of a squishy miscounts distance and gets too close to a monster that's going to eat him (gelatinous cube comes to mind), shove it away.

Gratuitously shove monsters around just to inflate your image in their minds (by doing more offensive stuff) and attract attention away from the squishies. It does cost you your reaction attack threat so don't do this too much when squishies are within 30' already.

If playing with more experienced players with a better sense of distance, against a relatively small number of strong monsters (e.g. Frost giants), after doing your initial charge + shove to attract attention when contact is first made, buy tempo on second and perhaps subsequent rounds by shoving enemies away after you attack and then falling back 30' toward the squishies, so the enemy misses a round of attacks. Requires other front liners to be aware and using compatible tactics, e.g. a Sentinel fighter using Dodge + opportunity attack as his attack mode.

If you fight swarms of creatures (a dozen stirges and two Flameskulls) don't use this tactic, use AoEs instead. And obviously it won't work against ranged or fast foes like centaurs and hobgoblins, which is why melee is weak in 5e. But against typical MM melee meat sack monster distributions it will work about as well as other melee strategies, and you have three modes to use (kiting, protecting by shoving, and grappling/proning/goring) each of which is probably useful in at least 25% of all melee fights, so overall you get a lot more usage than you would out of half-orc features.

[Dr. Cliché]

Oh, I just want to add something else that I noticed - I don't think Centaurs should have a walking speed of 40ft. From a standing start, horses are actually slower than humans. it seems like they should have 25-30ft movement speed, and instead get increased speed when they take the Dash action (or when they Run/Charge).

Nowhere near as deal-breaking as the size problem, just something that bugs me.

[Tectorman]

The survey for feedback is up now, so go give your feedback on the centaurs and minotaurs!

http://dnd.wizards.com/articles/unearthed-arcana/survey-centaurs-and-minotaurs

Thanks for the heads up! I gave my suggestion for multiple Centaur subraces if we need both Medium and Large size Centaurs. Whatever needs to happen to keep from losing Medium size.

[Finback]

I'd direct you to the documentary if I could. It was a few years ago and I've pretty much already said what stuck.

All good. I'm wondering if it was the NatGeo one. I'm moreso curious because of the idea that this would explain the myth - sometimes, this is actually backwards. Case in point: the Jersey Devil. There never WAS a Jersey Devil, but people now keep trying to explain the legend by pointing to real world things, but this presumes there ever was a real event to trigger it. They may be trying to explain the myth with a real example, but are fitting the narrative of the site to the myth, when there may not have been any basis in reality for the myth.

[Sigreid]

All good. I'm wondering if it was the NatGeo one. I'm moreso curious because of the idea that this would explain the myth - sometimes, this is actually backwards. Case in point: the Jersey Devil. There never WAS a Jersey Devil, but people now keep trying to explain the legend by pointing to real world things, but this presumes there ever was a real event to trigger it. They may be trying to explain the myth with a real example, but are fitting the narrative of the site to the myth, when there may not have been any basis in reality for the myth.

Yeah, that's always true. According to my mythology class in college a myth may be true or false, but no one knows the origin of the story and a people believe or act as though they believe it even though it's not proven.

[Willie the Duck]

Oh, I just want to add something else that I noticed - I don't think Centaurs should have a walking speed of 40ft. From a standing start, horses are actually slower than humans. it seems like they should have 25-30ft movement speed, and instead get increased speed when they take the Dash action (or when they Run/Charge).
Nowhere near as deal-breaking as the size problem, just something that bugs me.

I think when it comes to TTRPGs (at least those without complex vehicle rules like 3e GURPS and Hero System) treating speed like a on-off quality and not realistically modeling acceleration and the like, well the uh, horse has already left the barn, as it were.
sorry, dad joke thread got my motor running.

[MaxWilson]

I think when it comes to TTRPGs (at least those without complex vehicle rules like 3e GURPS and Hero System) treating speed like a on-off quality and not realistically modeling acceleration and the like, well the uh, horse has already left the barn, as it were.

Well, yes, but it's not too hard to add that detail back in if you want: certain creatures (e.g. horses, cheetahs, wolves, and anything with flying) could e.g. get double movement on their second turn of Dashing in a straight line.

I hope I answered your question about minotaur tactics in sufficient detail to satisfy your curiosity. I honestly don't see what is obscure about them--if it's still unclear it might help for your to describe a melee situation where you think a reaction shove WOULDN'T ever be useful, and how often those types of situations come up in your campaign. (Remember that the bar we're trying to clear is merely "competitive with half-orc and better than dragonborn" so the minotaur package doesn't have to be all THAT useful. It's not like we're trying to compete with variant human.)

[thoroughlyS]

Since nobody asked for it, here's my revision of the Minotaur (reworked, taken from Waterborne Adventures)

Minotaur
Ability Score Increase. Your Strength score increases by 2, and your Constitution score increases by 1.
Age. Minotaurs enter adulthood at around the age of 17 and can live up to 150 years.
Alignment. Minotaurs believe in a strict code of honor, and thus tend toward law. They are loyal to the death and make implacable enemies, even as their brutal culture and disdain for weakness push them toward evil.
Size. Minotaurs average over 6 feet in height, and they have strong, stocky builds. Your size is Medium.
Speed. Your base walking speed is 30 feet.
Darkvision. You can see in dim light within 60 feet of you as if it were bright light, and in darkness as if it were dim light. You can't discern color in darkness, only shades of gray.
Horns. Your horns are natural melee weapons, which you can use to make unarmed strikes. If you hit with them, you deal piercing damage equal to 1d6 + your Strength modifier, instead of the bludgeoning damage normal for an unarmed strike.*
Goring Rush. Immediately after you use the Dash action on your turn and move at least 10 feet in a straight line, you can make one melee attack with your horns as a bonus action.
Hammering Horns. Immediately after you make a melee attack against a creature as part of the Attack action on your turn†, you can attempt to shove that creature with your horns using your reaction. The creature must be within 5 feet of you. You cannot use this shove attempt to knock a creature prone.
Labyrinthine Recall. You can perfectly recall any path you have traveled.
Hybrid Nature. You have two creature types: humanoid and monstrosity. You can be affected by a game effect if it works on either of your creature types.
Languages. You can speak, read, and write Common and Giant.
Conqueror’s Virtue. From a young age, you focused on one of the three virtues of cunning, intellect, or strength.

Cunning
Ability Score Increase. Your Wisdom score increases by 1.
Keen Senses. You have proficiency in the Perception skill.

Intellect
Ability Score Increase. Your Intelligence score increases by 1.
Tool Proficiency. You gain proficiency with cartographer's tools, mason's tools, or navigator's tools.

Strength
Ability Score Increase. Your Constitution score increases by 1.
Powerful Build. You count as one size larger when determining your carrying capacity and the weight you can push, drag, or lift.

*This is functionally identical, but uses the same wording as the Lizardfolk.
†Firstly, requiring a hit as opposed to just an attack feels cumbersome. Secondly, by removing the action restriction this creates synergy with Goring Rush. At low levels this is similar to the Aggressive trait of the Orc (i.e. pretty powerful), but after getting Extra Attack it actually becomes worse because you can only make one attack.

[JackPhoenix]

Late to the party, but... medium-sized centaur? That's not half-man, half-horse, it's half-man, half-ass. Half-ass-man?

[WhismurWanders]

Hammering Horns. Immediately after you make a melee attack against a creature as part of the Attack action on your turn†, you can attempt to shove that creature with your horns using your reaction. The creature must be within 5 feet of you. You cannot use this shove attempt to knock a creature prone.

You may want to consider using "melee weapon attack" as opposed to simply "melee attack" due to certain melee spell attacks. As far as I can tell, the current wording would allow a Minotaur with Booming Blade to both cast the spell and shove the enemy away from them*, whereupon the enemy has no choice but to stand still or trigger the spell, granting quite a bit of crowd-control for the cost of a cantrip and a reaction. I don't really know if that would be too powerful or not, but it could be something to consider.

*I know that the shove itself wouldn't trigger Booming Blade, since the creature has to "willingly" move. But by shoving an enemy away, only an enemy with more than a 5' reach or with a ranged option would be able to retaliate without triggering the spell

[Tectorman]

Late to the party, but... medium-sized centaur? That's not half-man, half-horse, it's half-man, half-ass. Half-ass-man?

Ever watch Fantasia? Take a look at both the Centaurs and the Centaurettes. And how they compare to the Cupids. And the Satyr kids. And the Unicorn and Pegasus foals (and how they, in turn, compare to the adult Pegasi). And how big Bacchus is in comparison.

Centaurs bring Medium-size makes plenty of sense from a fluff perspective and it neatly avoids any issues that may crop up due to being Large size from a mechanics perspective. The only issue is that they were introduced as Large size in the MM.

Oh, well? Call it a mistake and move forward?

[JackPhoenix]

Ever watch Fantasia? Take a look at both the Centaurs and the Centaurettes. And how they compare to the Cupids. And the Satyr kids. And the Unicorn and Pegasus foals (and how they, in turn, compare to the adult Pegasi). And how big Bacchus is in comparison.

Centaurs bring Medium-size makes plenty of sense from a fluff perspective and it neatly avoids any issues that may crop up due to being Large size from a mechanics perspective. The only issue is that they were introduced as Large size in the MM.

Oh, well? Call it a mistake and move forward?

But that's the thing. We're not talking about Fantasia centaurs (I haven't seen it, by the way), we're talking about D&D centaurs. Which are established as Large. This problem arises every time someone decide "hey, this would be cool as a playable race!" and then make it different from supposedly the same race already present in the books (hobgoblins, goblins and kobolds, I'm looking at you!... actually, half Volo's races, when I think about it) to make it balanced. I have the same problem every time someone tries to homebrew playable vampire, lycanthrope, or what-have-you.

I'm cool with PCs and NPCs being different based on the "class" abilities, but making their racial abilities different is bad design.

Human should be the only playable race, and everyone should shut about playing anything else.

[Sigreid]

But that's the thing. We're not talking about Fantasia centaurs (I haven't seen it, by the way), we're talking about D&D centaurs. Which are established as Large. This problem arises every time someone decide "hey, this would be cool as a playable race!" and then make it different from supposedly the same race already present in the books (hobgoblins, goblins and kobolds, I'm looking at you!... actually, half Volo's races, when I think about it) to make it balanced. I have the same problem every time someone tries to homebrew playable vampire, lycanthrope, or what-have-you.

I'm cool with PCs and NPCs being different based on the "class" abilities, but making their racial abilities different is bad design.

Human should be the only playable race, and everyone should shut about playing anything else.

If you like classical music at all Fantasia is an amazing music video.

[thoroughlyS]

You may want to consider using "melee weapon attack" as opposed to simply "melee attack" due to certain melee spell attacks.
I didn't actually change that part, the ability in the Unearthed Arcana only specifies melee attack. Furthermore, booming blade and green-flame blade aren't spell attacks, so this distinction wouldn't affect them. It would affect spells like shocking grasp and flame blade.

[M Placeholder]

Is there a region or place in Forgotten Realms outside the Sword Coast known for 'monstrous' adventurers?

The Shaar, the vast arid steppe that covers a huge tract of Southern Faerun, with a huge set of cliffs that cut across it. It's home to Thri-Kreen (one subrace), Loxo (anthropomorphic Elephants with two trunks), Wemics (Lion centaurs) and Gnolls. There are a few merc companies that hire monsters, and at the extreme Southeast of the Shaar, there is a monster nation called Veldorn.

[Tectorman]

But that's the thing. We're not talking about Fantasia centaurs (I haven't seen it, by the way), we're talking about D&D centaurs. Which are established as Large. This problem arises every time someone decide "hey, this would be cool as a playable race!" and then make it different from supposedly the same race already present in the books (hobgoblins, goblins and kobolds, I'm looking at you!... actually, half Volo's races, when I think about it) to make it balanced. I have the same problem every time someone tries to homebrew playable vampire, lycanthrope, or what-have-you.

I'm cool with PCs and NPCs being different based on the "class" abilities, but making their racial abilities different is bad design.

Human should be the only playable race, and everyone should shut about playing anything else.

So your only problem is that they first came out as Large in the MM? Okay. Again, why is that the issue? It came out first; of what significance is that? Why does that give it primacy? Why is that not the mistake and the playable Medium size must be the mistake instead? Why can it not be the other way around?

Or to bring it to a solution that keeps both options on deck, why not have multiple breeds? The Large size MM Centaurs are one breed (and make that one playable option) and the playable Medium size Centaurs are a different breed (and also playable). We have, what, six different varieties of Elf. I think previous editions had as many as eleven. The game can easily boast multiple subraces of Centaur.

[M Placeholder]

Or to bring it to a solution that keeps both options on deck, why not have multiple breeds? The Large size MM Centaurs are one breed (and make that one playable option) and the playable Medium size Centaurs are a different breed (and also playable). We have, what, six different varieties of Elf. I think previous editions had as many as eleven. The game can easily boast multiple subraces of Centaur.

In 2e, there were quite (http://www.lomion.de/cmm/centdese.php)a (http://www.lomion.de/cmm/cenkgnoa.php) few (http://www.lomion.de/cmm/cenkhapo.php) different (http://www.lomion.de/cmm/hybsil.php)types of centaur that were medium or small sized. Just stat a few of those up as PC races, job done

[MaxWilson]

So your only problem is that they first came out as Large in the MM? Okay. Again, why is that the issue? It came out first; of what significance is that? Why does that give it primacy? Why is that not the mistake and the playable Medium size must be the mistake instead? Why can it not be the other way around?

Well, there's also the fact that the UA fluff itself describes centaurs as "towering over" other Medium-sized creatures, so even UA appears to want MM-sized centaurs instead of tiny Fantasia-sized centaurs.

[Luccan]

I think this UA is starting to show the flaws of sticking to a "monsters and players don't use the same rules" mentality for 5e. Sure, it lets you do cool stuff like legendary and lair actions, but then you get problems like Centaurs counting as Medium for players, but Large in the MM. When you design the game so that certain things are wildly out of balance if given to players (which is the explanation I've heard for all these Medium sized PCs that sometimes pretend to be Large), you have to realize that you have given up some versatility (or created player/monster disparity) in character building in exchange for ease of play.

[strangebloke]

I think this UA is starting to show the flaws of sticking to a "monsters and players don't use the same rules" mentality for 5e. Sure, it lets you do cool stuff like legendary and lair actions, but then you get problems like Centaurs counting as Medium for players, but Large in the MM. When you design the game so that certain things are wildly out of balance if given to players (which is the explanation I've heard for all these Medium sized PCs that sometimes pretend to be Large), you have to realize that you have given up some versatility (or created player/monster disparity) in character building in exchange for ease of play.

I don't think that large size is overpowered for PCs so long as it comes with some drawbacks and it's a large portion of that race's features. As it stands, if you get rid of large-size weapons and large-size grappling rules, the only things that large size let you do:

-medium size characters can mount you (no big)
-you threaten more of the battlefield (nice, but not ridiculous)
-Aura effects are way better (this is the big one)

Overall? eh. I would not consider large size to be a bigger deal than a flying race. So maybe large centaurs, but you ban them in AL.

[MaxWilson]

I think this UA is starting to show the flaws of sticking to a "monsters and players don't use the same rules" mentality for 5e. Sure, it lets you do cool stuff like legendary and lair actions, but then you get problems like Centaurs counting as Medium for players, but Large in the MM. When you design the game so that certain things are wildly out of balance if given to players (which is the explanation I've heard for all these Medium sized PCs that sometimes pretend to be Large), you have to realize that you have given up some versatility (or created player/monster disparity) in character building in exchange for ease of play.

Along those lines, it's quite strange that Mearl has cited, as the reason for not wanting Large-sized PCs, the fact that Large monsters generally get double damage dice on their weapons... but Enlarge/Reduce only gives +1d4 to damage--the same damage bonus BTW as a level 1 bonus action spell (Divine Favor), and of a worse type (bludgeoning/piercing/slashing, nonmagical by default, instead of radiant).

A reasonable DM houserule is to just make Enlarge/Reduce double the damage dice, just like regular Large weapons. That way Enlarge/Reduce is useful for damage and not just for grappling shenanigans.

[Joe the Rat]

What's hilarious here is that Centaurs don't have double dice weapons in the Monster Manual- just on the hooves. If there was a race to trial with, this is it.

Also, I'm making a note to add MaxWilson's Enlarge mod to try next time I'm running.

[Temperjoke]

I do find it interesting that they have no problem adding blurbs for bugbears, goliaths, and firbolgs regarding their size, and one for bugbears' longlimbs, but they don't want to add something for centaur size versus weapons/damage.

[Drizztguen]

I havent seen anything on these yet, apologies if it was mentioned already: can centaurs use horseshoes of speed? 40ft + 30ft = 70ft movement, and that’s not even taking a monk class into account...

[Drizztguen]

Would boots of speed be applicable?

[Willie the Duck]

I hope I answered your question about minotaur tactics in sufficient detail to satisfy your curiosity. I honestly don't see what is obscure about them--if it's still unclear it might help for your to describe a melee situation where you think a reaction shove WOULDN'T ever be useful, and how often those types of situations come up in your campaign. (Remember that the bar we're trying to clear is merely "competitive with half-orc and better than dragonborn" so the minotaur package doesn't have to be all THAT useful. It's not like we're trying to compete with variant human.)

It really isn't obscure. It was really more "convince me that this really would actual be a viable strategy in practice," but 'convince me' sounds too rude. In the end, I think I buy it, at least for some concepts. I made a minotaur Eldritch knight/rogue1 (yes, for expertise in athletics) who attacks with booming blade, pushes his opponent away, and then sees if they rush back into the frey--it was sufficiently useful to say I found a good use for the race.

[OvisCaedo]

It really isn't obscure. It was really more "convince me that this really would actual be a viable strategy in practice," but 'convince me' sounds too rude. In the end, I think I buy it, at least for some concepts. I made a minotaur Eldritch knight/rogue1 (yes, for expertise in athletics) who attacks with booming blade, pushes his opponent away, and then sees if they rush back into the frey--it was sufficiently useful to say I found a good use for the race.

Useful, but also technically not valid as the Hammering Horns feature is written (asssuming you mean that), since casting Booming Blade is not "the Attack action" even if you make a melee weapon attack in it. Which is probably a deliberate exclusion on the phrasing, but also could be considered kind of a silly one. It also excludes trying to use the push with the race's built in "charge" attack.

Though maybe Eldritch Knight itself has some built in feature to endorse a booming blade/shove combo? I'd think that would also exclude actually using the racial feature, though... Maybe I need to re-read EK.

[Willie the Duck]

Yeah, you are correct. In the same way that you can't pair the SCAG cantrips with 2wf, this is technically not possible. We play using the 'seriously? Don't make me roll my eyes at you' method of play which states that things like the SCAG cantrips count as attacks (right up until someone tries to find a cheesy interpretation to ping off it, which we all agree this is not). My minotaur uses a warhammer, but we'd also let him trigger booming blade with his horns (which are not a melee weapon even though they make a melee weapon attack) and any other 'iffy' decisions. :-)

[OvisCaedo]

Oh, I can understand that. Honestly, if I was GMing, I'd consider allowing it myself. Though a booming blade with a "free" shove attempt seems like it'd be the real edge of what I'd consider not being cheesy... I can see people falling either way on it if they're willing to be generally lenient for the sake of fun. I'm not trying to call you or your group out for "doing things wrong".

Rather, I felt like I should point out that it's not RAW, because as far as evaluating the value of the race's features as written and for what kind of feedback should be given, the strictness and technicalities matter a lot. If there are combinations that make it fun or interesting that are deliberately excluded by the way it's written up, that seems like a reason to try submitting feedback for them to change the feature TO be more open in future revisions.

[Willie the Duck]

Oh, I can understand that. Honestly, if I was GMing, I'd consider allowing it myself. Though a booming blade with a "free" shove attempt seems like it'd be the real edge of what I'd consider not being cheesy... I can see people falling either way on it if they're willing to be generally lenient for the sake of fun. I'm not trying to call you or your group out for "doing things wrong".

And that is a real problem with my analysis (not the playing, since the character was clearly not OP)--I found a use for the race, but one that exploits a clear deviation from RAW (and one a reasonable person might consider cheesy). If that's what I have to do to make this race work, maybe I'm not 100% convinced that the race works.

[MaxWilson]

Oh, I can understand that. Honestly, if I was GMing, I'd consider allowing it myself. Though a booming blade with a "free" shove attempt seems like it'd be the real edge of what I'd consider not being cheesy... I can see people falling either way on it if they're willing to be generally lenient for the sake of fun. I'm not trying to call you or your group out for "doing things wrong".

Rather, I felt like I should point out that it's not RAW, because as far as evaluating the value of the race's features as written and for what kind of feedback should be given, the strictness and technicalities matter a lot. If there are combinations that make it fun or interesting that are deliberately excluded by the way it's written up, that seems like a reason to try submitting feedback for them to change the feature TO be more open in future revisions.

If ubiquitous Booming Blade on an EK is your strategy, you're going to want the Mobile feat. Variant human with Mobile might be the way to go here. I recommend a Sharpshooter Mobile EK with Expeditious Retreat/Mage Armor/Shield/Darkness/Magic Weapon for this use-case: you have a terrific ranged attack and you still make a great switch-hitter in melee. And you're fantastic at exploiting difficult terrain due to the Expeditious Retreat/Mobile synergy.

Minotaur would be more if you're going for the tanky melee Cavalier/Samurai/Battlemaster angle. Less mechanically powerful, but still fun in the right campaign. I mean, you could still play a Minotaur Eldritch Knight with the Mobile feat, but at that point, why bother? EK already has most of the good minotaur features covered using magic. You're losing out slightly on the grapple/shield/gore angle but there's still a lot of redundancy there.

If I were going to play a Minotaur it would be specifically for the sake of playing a simple, non-magical character who was effective using primarily at-will, physical resources. Not SCAG cantrips and EK spells.