Trying to figure out monk abilities with Fist of the Forest, Battle Dancer, etc.

[schreier]

Trying to figure out damage for a monk-based character. Got confused trying to research the Fist of the Forest interaction, then went on from there.

Some questions:
1. Fist of the Forest seems to specifically link its damage enhancing abilities to d8 and d10 specifically, as opposed to at least that level (it says "At 1st level, you deal 1d8 points of damage with each unarmed strike. When you attain 3rd level, this damage increases to 1d10 points. See the monk class feature (PH 41). If your unarmed attack already deals this amount of damage, increase the base damage to the next step indicated on the monk class table.")

If you do more than 1d8 when you get the Fist of the Forest level, what effect does it have? I originally read it as "at least 1d8" but some argue that it only works if you do exactly 1d8 damage - so I wanted to people's thoughts. It does have a footnote indicating that it is for medium, so it already factors in the possibility of different sizes.

2. What is the consensus on adding stats to AC? Monk seems to clearly add Wis to AC (in addition to the standard Dex). Does Fist of the Forest replace the Wis with Con, or do Con and Wis get added to AC? What if you throw in Battle Dancer (Cha)? If you take a feat like Kung Fu Genius (applying Intelligence instead of Wisdom to AC), can you also then take Ninja to get Wis as well?

3. Does Battle Dancer unarmed damage (which is the same progression as Monk) stack with monk levels and PrC that stack with Monk? It does say "A battle dancer uses unarmed strikes in a manner similar to a monk."

4. If you have feats and/or items that help with monk damage, do they stack? For example, if you have Greater Mighty Wallop, it maxes at Colossal. If you also have Improved Natural Attack, a Battle Fist (warforged component), and a Totem Avatar bound to your shoulder chakra, do you have Colossal (from GMW) + 1 (INA) + 1 (fist) + 1 (avatar)? From the tables I've seen, Colossal is 12d8, then 16d8, then 24d8, then 32d8)
(http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Ultimate_Monk_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build)/Highlights#Base_Damage )

5. How do Acolyte of the Fist and Initiate of Draconic Mysteries work with dice damage? It looks like it would have to be an epic (lvl 21) character to make Monk 5 / Initiate of Draconic Mysteries 8 / Acolyte of the Fist 8 - but that would have 4 "dice step" up -- at that level, assuming Colossal size you would go from 12d8 to .. 12d10, then 12d12, then 12d20, then 12d100? Is that the proper progression?

I know these are somewhat extreme examples - just trying to understand the interaction of the classes and the rules.

Thanks for indulging this exercise
schreier

[Falontani]

Trying to figure out damage for a monk-based character. Got confused trying to research the Fist of the Forest interaction, then went on from there.

Some questions:
1. Fist of the Forest seems to specifically link its damage enhancing abilities to d8 and d10 specifically, as opposed to at least that level (it says "At 1st level, you deal 1d8 points of damage with each unarmed strike. When you attain 3rd level, this damage increases to 1d10 points. See the monk class feature (PH 41). If your unarmed attack already deals this amount of damage, increase the base damage to the next step indicated on the monk class table.")

If you do more than 1d8 when you get the Fist of the Forest level, what effect does it have? I originally read it as "at least 1d8" but some argue that it only works if you do exactly 1d8 damage - so I wanted to people's thoughts. It does have a footnote indicating that it is for medium, so it already factors in the possibility of different sizes.
If you have monk levels or a monk progression with unarmed strikes then all it does is increase your unarmed dice by one step.
2. What is the consensus on adding stats to AC? Monk seems to clearly add Wis to AC (in addition to the standard Dex). Does Fist of the Forest replace the Wis with Con, or do Con and Wis get added to AC? What if you throw in Battle Dancer (Cha)? If you take a feat like Kung Fu Genius (applying Intelligence instead of Wisdom to AC), can you also then take Ninja to get Wis as well?
It stacks, and yes if you take Kung Fu Genius then you can get int
3. Does Battle Dancer unarmed damage (which is the same progression as Monk) stack with monk levels and PrC that stack with Monk? It does say "A battle dancer uses unarmed strikes in a manner similar to a monk."
By RAW I do not believe that they stack, however I believe they very well should
4. If you have feats and/or items that help with monk damage, do they stack? For example, if you have Greater Mighty Wallop, it maxes at Colossal. If you also have Improved Natural Attack, a Battle Fist (warforged component), and a Totem Avatar bound to your shoulder chakra, do you have Colossal (from GMW) + 1 (INA) + 1 (fist) + 1 (avatar)? From the tables I've seen, Colossal is 12d8, then 16d8, then 24d8, then 32d8)
(http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Ultimate_Monk_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build)/Highlights#Base_Damage )
It depends on the order in which they are added. If Greater Mighty Whallop is applied last then it can only increase up to colossal. With that said many things for unarmed dice to stack

Answered in Purple

[Darrin]

1. Fist of the Forest seems to specifically link its damage enhancing abilities to d8 and d10 specifically, as opposed to at least that level (it says "At 1st level, you deal 1d8 points of damage with each unarmed strike. When you attain 3rd level, this damage increases to 1d10 points. See the monk class feature (PH 41). If your unarmed attack already deals this amount of damage, increase the base damage to the next step indicated on the monk class table.")

If you do more than 1d8 when you get the Fist of the Forest level, what effect does it have? I originally read it as "at least 1d8" but some argue that it only works if you do exactly 1d8 damage - so I wanted to people's thoughts. It does have a footnote indicating that it is for medium, so it already factors in the possibility of different sizes.


FotF's Unarmed Damage (Ex) ability is not worded particularly well. From a strict RAW standpoint, there's an argument that it only applies if your unarmed damage is exactly 1d8 or 1d10, and if it's above that then those abilities no longer apply. However, the only person I've ever seen arguing for that level of pedantry no longer posts here, so... I read it as, "If your unarmed damage already exceeds 1d8 or 1d10, then increase your unarmed damage on the monk table by one or two steps as appropriate."

When you start adding additional steps, such as Improved Natural Attack, Totem Avatar Soulmeld, or greater mighty wallop, then things get a bit wonky, as you have to put some thought into which order you want those size increases to take effect. In general, when multiple abilities are being stacked together at the same time, the user/owner gets to decide the specific order of operations.



2. What is the consensus on adding stats to AC? Monk seems to clearly add Wis to AC (in addition to the standard Dex). Does Fist of the Forest replace the Wis with Con, or do Con and Wis get added to AC? What if you throw in Battle Dancer (Cha)? If you take a feat like Kung Fu Genius (applying Intelligence instead of Wisdom to AC), can you also then take Ninja to get Wis as well?


It depends on how you define a "source". On this forum, most people go by the name of the ability. If the two abilities are both called "AC Bonus", then general consensus is they don't stack. However, that is not a universal consensus. If you ask me, I say monks need all the help they can get, go ahead and let 'em stack. You're just making them more MAD anyway.



3. Does Battle Dancer unarmed damage (which is the same progression as Monk) stack with monk levels and PrC that stack with Monk? It does say "A battle dancer uses unarmed strikes in a manner similar to a monk."


Well, first there's an alignment issue, so a Lawful Battle Dancer or a Chaotic Monk is going to raise some eyebrows. Battle Dancer doesn't contain any language about what happens if the Battle Dancer switches alignment, so it's difficult to tell whether they keep their class abilities. Monks who become chaotic still retain their abilities, so it would be legal to start as a monk, change your alignment to chaotic, and then continue to advance as a Battle Dancer. As far as stacking your unarmed damage... there is no text in Battle Dancer saying that you can stack monk levels, so by strict RAW your unarmed damage would be tracked separately for each class. At my table, I'd allow them to stack, but that's just me.



4. If you have feats and/or items that help with monk damage, do they stack? For example, if you have Greater Mighty Wallop, it maxes at Colossal. If you also have Improved Natural Attack, a Battle Fist (warforged component), and a Totem Avatar bound to your shoulder chakra, do you have Colossal (from GMW) + 1 (INA) + 1 (fist) + 1 (avatar)? From the tables I've seen, Colossal is 12d8, then 16d8, then 24d8, then 32d8)


Both Improved Natural Attack and the weapon size table in the Rules Compendium top out at 12d8, so by strict RAW there's no indication that you're allowed to increase your weapon damage above that. However... the increasing number of dice can be mathematically determined, if you are so inclined, and many optimizers (notably most King of Smack builds) do progress beyond 12d6 or 12d8. Note that there are two "tracks" for increasing damage steps, the Xd6 and Xd8 tracks. Depending on how exactly you apply your size increases, you may wind up on one track or the other.

Anyway. RAW stops at 12d8. If you want to go beyond that... you'll need to work out whatever your group is comfortable with.



5. How do Acolyte of the Fist and Initiate of Draconic Mysteries work with dice damage? It looks like it would have to be an epic (lvl 21) character to make Monk 5 / Initiate of Draconic Mysteries 8 / Acolyte of the Fist 8 - but that would have 4 "dice step" up -- at that level, assuming Colossal size you would go from 12d8 to .. 12d10, then 12d12, then 12d20, then 12d100? Is that the proper progression?


Initiate of Draconic Mysteries does not specify if "die step" refers to physical dice, the dice on the Monk Unarmed table, or the steps listed under Improved Natural Attack. Acolyte of the Fist specifies "die type", which sounds like physical dice. As far as RAW goes... I'm stumped. I'm not sure how to parse either ability and still keep it somewhere near the neighborhood of where the designers intended. My inclination would be to treat each "die step" or "die type" as an increase on the Monk table or on the INA progression.

If you really want to go beyond the physical die types above d12... I have d14s and d16s in my dice collection. After that, I'd probably go d20, d24, d30... and if you managed to get up above d30, then I'd bring out the Zocchihedron, because why not?

[emeraldstreak]

4. If you have feats and/or items that help with monk damage, do they stack? For example, if you have Greater Mighty Wallop, it maxes at Colossal. If you also have Improved Natural Attack, a Battle Fist (warforged component), and a Totem Avatar bound to your shoulder chakra, do you have Colossal (from GMW) + 1 (INA) + 1 (fist) + 1 (avatar)? From the tables I've seen, Colossal is 12d8, then 16d8, then 24d8, then 32d8)
(http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Ultimate_Monk_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build)/Highlights#Base_Damage )


Full explanation of the RAW (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=22812269&postcount=37) on this.

[schreier]

Thank you emeraldstreak for the RAW explanation. That is very helpful, and it seems clear that the progression should occur.

It sounds like the consensus so far is:
Fist of the Forest should increase damage, even if you are not exactly at 1d8.

RAW is uncertain, but the two posters would let the AC bonuses stack - but some on the site would say it's the same name so won't stack.

Monk/Battle Dancer probably don't stack, but there is a reasonable argument to allow it

Damage can continue past 12d8. On that last one --
If you have feats and spells that increase size - can you pick the order, or is it the order it is applied?
For example, if you have improved natural attack as a feat, then have greater mighty wallop cast on you - by time order, you are colossal (assuming lvl 20). If you are allowed to apply the feat after the spell, then you can be colossal + 1. Would people allow feats to apply after, even though they were "possessed" before the spell was cast?

As far as dice increases - it's pretty much impossible outside of epic it seems to get all 4 dice level increases, since both prestige classes that advance them are not available before level 6. d6 to 8 to 10 to 12 is pretty straight forward ... d20 and d100 seem crazy, but don't need to concern ourselves with that generally.

[kulosle]

My group mainly uses digital dice so we house ruled that any damage increase for natural attacks would just be +1d4. It is slieghtly stronger than what the rules suggest but even if your trying to exploit it, (and we do allow that sometimes) it is always weaker than exploiting anything else. And it's just so much simpler. But be prepared to rolls a lot of d4s.

[emeraldstreak]

Damage can continue past 12d8. On that last one --
If you have feats and spells that increase size - can you pick the order, or is it the order it is applied?
For example, if you have improved natural attack as a feat, then have greater mighty wallop cast on you - by time order, you are colossal (assuming lvl 20). If you are allowed to apply the feat after the spell, then you can be colossal + 1. Would people allow feats to apply after, even though they were "possessed" before the spell was cast?


- Greater Mighty Wallop begins its description with "as Mighty Wallop" and Mighty Wallop clearly states it isn't an actual size increase. So they both bypass the stacking rule for actual magic size increases. So far so good.

- Greater Mighty Wallop says up to five steps, but then says to an effective (but not actual) maximum of Colossal.

Based on that, I would rule it supersedes both pre-existing effective increases (say, ones from feats) and existing actual increases (ie Half-Ogre templated humanoid that is permanently Enlarged). But if you were to obtain another effective increase (say from a spell cast after GMW), they will stack.

Something to keep in mind: the DMG tables don't ever mention Colossal. They simply count number of steps of damage increase.

[emeraldstreak]

On a side note, consider into the Scorpion Kama from MIC and Beast Strike from Dragon Magazine.

The Scorpion Kama copies unarmed damage, while it itself can be enchanted and more importantly, if oversized it counts as two-handed weapon an multiplies Strength accordingly.

Beast Strike adds a slam's or a claw's damage to unarmed strikes. Especially potent with Warshaper or Warforged slams.

PS. Then there's the Sizing weapon enchant. If placed on the necklace from Savage Species which enchants unarmed strikes, there are two possibilities:

- freely trade attack penalties for sizing up your unarmed strike

- or (if going with specific Sizing enchant rules trump "unarmed strike always counts as light weapon" rule) go up two sizes and have two-handed unarmed strike

[schreier]

So a warforged could take a battlefist and put it on after greater mighty wallop, or a chameleon could use their floating feat to take improved natural attack after greater mighty wallop - and those would work ... but if you have the feat already, or are wearing the fist when the spell is cast, you are capped.

Normally, you can order things in the way most advantageous - but I agree here it seems to be based on the timing of the application of the effect.