Reverse Druid - Balance Questions

[WereRabbitz]

So came up with a backstory for one our players being a farm hand who was cursed into Panther form. Said character was taken in by Druids who helped to teach it wild shape so he could for a few hours a day turn himself back into halfing and be able to speak again.

So basically he is a level 6 Druid that is by default a panther... He has to use his wildshapes to turn into a humanoid so he can cast spells and when it wears off he has to revert back to Panther form again. He took the wild shape arch type, but i'm worried about some balancing.

Starting off at level 6 (joining existing campaign)


I had him roll up halfling stats so when he went humanoid those were his stats, but in his normal state he has panther stats/actions with the exception to wis/int/cha just like wild shape does. If he is in humanoid shape and passes out he reverts back to Panther form like the normal wild shape rules

I am planning on letting him Gain HD & Proficiency bonuses to scores just like a normal druid would get as they level. I was going to let him increase his panther stats when he gained feats if so desired or use feats that logistically sound reasonable to a panther's capabilities.

The two big concerns i have are these:
1. Does letting these feats/stats to his panther form give him too much of a leg up?

2. How do i keep his wild shape from feeling *Cheap* since he can only do humanoids? Should I allow a narrow range of animals (humanoid and "cat" creatures?)

Thanks!

[Daithi]

Let me start by saying that I think the animal that turns into a human concept is pretty cool.

As far as balance goes, I don't think I'd worry about it much. Any 6th level adventurer should be able to turn a panther into a nice rug. So, I'd certainly allow his panther form to take feats or whatnot to become more powerful. If anything, his panther is going to start looking weaker and weaker as your group advances in levels.

If all he can turn into is a human or cat related animal then he's already nerfed to some degree. By the way, I'd personally go with Crag Cat instead of panther.

[A Fat Dragon]

Moon Druids at some point can turn into Elementals at the cost of 2 Wildshape uses. I’d say it might be cool to switch Elementals to Monstrosities, for both flavor points, and versatility.

I’d say it’s Panther form gains HP as any other adventurer does, and that it should be able to Wildshape into any humanoid (If it follows the CR requirement, of course), and into felines. This would lead to a bit more versatility, and the humanoids would allow some cool deception trickery, as you could transform and pretend to be somebody that you aren’t.

Perhaps have it’s natural Melee attack level up a few times as well? Perhaps at the same rate a cantrip increases, or half as fast as a cantrip increases? Might not be huge, but it might make them keep up with the rest of the party later in the campaign.

[ProseBeforeHos]

The balance problems come more from that a panther is a very weak beast for a level 6 party, certainly much weaker than a level 6 druid, casting spells and swapping into CR2 animals (read: Cave Bear).

As cool as this concept is the danger is that the player just becomes a fifth wheel in the group. you're probably gonna have to buff the base "panther form" enough that it can hold it's own as a secondary fighter/scout.

Also, how are you going to handle the lvl 10 elemental forms? Allow the druid to swap into some sort of CR5 monstrosity (troll maybe)?

[CTurbo]

I love the idea. I would most definitely allow him to bump stats and take feats for his Panther form that potentially cross over into his humanoid form. Maybe even let him get a feat AND ASI at the same time. The biggest issue I see with the Panther is a 10 Con and low AC. Another option would be to let him start with the stats of a Tiger instead. I'd keep the Elemental feature the same.

And one more potential option would be to just let him keep and use the stats he rolled for his Halfling form while in his "normal" Panther form.

[A Fat Dragon]

Would you be willing to let him have a hit die one level bigger than current Druid hit die, as compensation for only 10 Con? I get there’s still the problem with Concentration, but giving him a boost to AC every few levels may help, and you could allow him to take Warcaster and Resilient feats, which would greatly help.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I would give him PC-style stats as a Panther, rather than restricting him to the default stat block-- basically make a custom "Panther" race. As for Wild Shapes... If you're thinking about keeping it as a binary panther/halfling going, maybe go with something Circle of Spores-y? Swap Wild Shape uses for a significant non-shapeshift-y combat buff, which can be attached to either Panther or halfling form?

[Vogie]

Moon Druids at some point can turn into Elementals at the cost of 2 Wildshape uses. I’d say it might be cool to switch Elementals to Monstrosities, for both flavor points, and versatility.

I’d say it’s Panther form gains HP as any other adventurer does, and that it should be able to Wildshape into any humanoid (If it follows the CR requirement, of course), and into felines. This would lead to a bit more versatility, and the humanoids would allow some cool deception trickery, as you could transform and pretend to be somebody that you aren’t.

Perhaps have it’s natural Melee attack level up a few times as well? Perhaps at the same rate a cantrip increases, or half as fast as a cantrip increases? Might not be huge, but it might make them keep up with the rest of the party later in the campaign.


I like these ideas. Doubly so if the elementals are cat-like rather than humanoid.

Perhaps follow the Martial Arts scaling for the natural melee attacks?

I don't think there's any reason why a wildshaping panther couldn't also transform into elephants, eagles & snakes.

Maybe check out the Middle Finger of Vecna Circle of the Fist (http://mfov.magehandpress.com/2016/08/fist-of-forest.html).


I would give him PC-style stats as a Panther, rather than restricting him to the default stat block-- basically make a custom "Panther" race. As for Wild Shapes... If you're thinking about keeping it as a binary panther/halfling going, maybe go with something Circle of Spores-y? Swap Wild Shape uses for a significant non-shapeshift-y combat buff, which can be attached to either Panther or halfling form?

I assume the OP was just going to have the character's stats (as they were originally humanoid) just have a +2/+2/+0/-4/+2/-2 modifier while in panther form, and grow with normal ASIs? Other than being really hard to MC into Charisma or Int based classes, I suppose.

I really like the idea of something Circle of Spores-y. It'd be better with some flavor resonance... maybe switch poison to fire, and you could be a sort of Flaming panther spirit.

[CTurbo]

What was the final resolution to this? What were the rolled stats?

I've been thinking about it and I think the best thing to do is to just use the rolled stats for the Panther's stats as well as when in Halfling form.

The Panther has a d8 hit die just like the Druid so there's no need to change anything there.

Again the biggest problem is the Panther has a 10 Con AND a 12 AC. You could probably get by with one of those but not both together. A 6th level d8 hit die character would only have 33 hit points.

So you could gift the Panther the tough feat which would help, but I'd recommend what I said above about letting the player set the Panther's stats the same way he normally would for his character using whatever rules you use at your table. Another alternative would be to allow the Panther to start with a 14 Con, and allow it to have the Barbarian's unarmored defense which is Dex+Con which would bring it up from 12 to 14. Considering the maximum AC the Panther could have with a 20 Dex is 15, and the player would be much better off bumping Str. Gifting the Panther a free +4 to Con will likely still be worse than what the player would come up with with the rolled stats.

I like this idea and I'm going to steal it one day lol


Edit: One additional potential idea is to use the Ranger Beastmaster's method of making the companion's viable in combat and that is to add your proficiency bonus to AC, attack rolls, damage rolls, and skills/saves it's proficient in.

[MagneticKitty]

I'd have it be his race instead. Take a look at the yuan-ti racial feat and mod it. Give it panther skills on cool down instead. Let him take any class he wants... Monk probably for hitting harder.