My Extra Attack Forge Cleric Dream

[Baeric]

Hey all,

First time poster here, still a newbie at DnD so I'm looking for a bit of advice. I'm playing my first campaign with some friends, playing as a Forge Cleric (we just hit level 5), and so far loving the buff people and smash things playstyle. I had this idea that dipping 5 levels into a martial class (probably Hunter Ranger) to grab extra attack would synergize well with all the on-hits available to me, like Blessing of the Forge, Elemental, Magic and later on Holy Weapon, and Bestow Curse. As well, if I dipped into Ranger I could get some extra on-hits: Hunter's Mark, +2 vs. Favoured Enemy, Duelist. HOWEVER, upon asking Reddit for feedback on the idea, the general consensus was that this would make me both a crappy cleric and a crappy martial class, and both my damage and utility would be better if I stuck to Pure Cleric. They mostly chided me for saying I wanted more melee damage, since apparently most of a Cleric's damage is supposed to come from spells (especially later).

My questions are these: Would this 5 level dip really be so suboptimal? And are there any homebrew solutions to offer my DM that would be balanced so I could pull this off? Maybe switching the level 3 and 5 Conclave bonuses (Getting Extra Attack at 3 instead of Colossus Slayer/Horde Breaker)? I don't know nearly enough about this game to know what would be balanced/optimal and what wouldn't be. I'll probably just end up going Pure Cleric, but I'm going to grasp at straws for a bit before I give this on-hit Cleric dream up.

Looking back I probably should have picked Paladin if I wanted the buff and smash playstyle. Forge Cleric just looked so cool! And all these on-hit bonuses will be an utter waste if I am destined to be a pure spellcaster later.

Any and all feedback is greatly appreciated.

[OutOfThyme]

The big problem with large dips in 5e is that Ability Score Improvements are tied to class level, not character level. By going Ranger 5/Forge Cleric 15, you lose out on the 16th & 19th level Ability Score Improvements on the Cleric side, but you do get the ASI from Ranger at 4th level. Another thing is that you lose out on having access to 9th level spells until 20th level. This is kind of why multiclassing is a lot harder to do well in 5e.

Extra Attack at Ranger 3 would be entirely up to your DM, especially since you're getting it at 8th level, but it sets a bad precedent.

I'd actually talk to your DM about substituting Soul of the Forge for Extra Attack at 6th - there's precedent to casters getting Extra Attack at 6th level in certain subclasses, like the College of Swords Bard. Extra Attack is a very potent feature, but I think this request is reasonable for a DM to approve.

[Finieous]

I don't think there's anything suboptimal about it. In fact, if you want to remain a "melee cleric" past about mid-2nd Tier, you should multiclass into a martial IMO. Reason is, you're never going to get any more action economy, and as your spellcasting becomes more potent you'll find that the best use of your action in any situation that really matters is casting a spell.

ETA: The ASI issue is why fighter is so attractive. I played a War Cleric/Eldritch Knight that was a lot of fun and quite effective.

[Spacehamster]

Would work okay but would have been better to start with the 5 ranger levels and then go into cleric. :)

[CTurbo]

Is it "optimal" for a Cleric? No. But would it work and be fun for you? Absolutely. It's all about having fun.

The biggest problem with taking such a large "dip" in a martial class is that you're putting off getting your higher level spells for a really long time. Also consider that you'd be level 10 by then and may not even still be playing or at least getting close to being done. Most campaigns don't make it into the high levels.

What are your stats? I\Assuming point buy or standard array, if you're going to continue down this path, You're going to want to bump Str and Wis which doesn't give you much feat room.

Either Fighter or Ranger would work.

5 levels of Fighter gives you Dueling Fighting Style, Second Wind, Action Surge, and a Fighter subclass. 6 levels of Fighter gets you another ASI/feat which would make up for the one you lost. If you choose Fighter, I'd go with Battle Master for some fun maneuvers. Riposte and Parry are my favorite.

5 levels of Ranger gets you Natural Explorer, Dueling Fighting Style, Favored Enemy, and then a Ranger subclass/Conclave. Ask your DM if you can use the Revised Ranger. If so, I'd choose Ranger because it just fits better IMO and it gives you some fun spells that wouldn't otherwise have access to. I'd go with Hunter and Horde Breaker. Even though it's situational, it's pretty easy to pull off and an extra free attack per turn is really really good. You'll kind of already get Colossus Slayer at Cleric 8(Divine Strike), but they do stack together if you wanted to make it even better. Note that both Divine Strike and Colossus Slayer work if you can get a reaction attack(Riposte Maneuver, Sentinel, or regular Attack of Opportunity).

With other domains, Monk would be an excellent option, but I don't think it'd work for you.

If you have a 13 Charisma, you could go Paladin and still get your Dueling Fighting Style, even more healing, AND smites.

I say Ranger if DM lets you use the UA Revised, but Fighter if he won't.

[bid]

The bigger problem is that you'll spend a long time playing from level 5 to level 10, and your campaign may end early. This is why others suggest you start martial to get extra attack now, before going cleric.

You can cast spiritual weapon and get a second attack, or you could forgo the shield and use twin light hammers. You also get extra damage at level 8, so not all is lost.


If you really want extra attack and not its sugary substitute, your best bet at "hack your DM" is to refluff yourself as a pure paladin 5. Or fighter/ranger 5 and MC forge after.

[Malifice]

Hey all,

First time poster here, still a newbie at DnD so I'm looking for a bit of advice. I'm playing my first campaign with some friends, playing as a Forge Cleric (we just hit level 5), and so far loving the buff people and smash things playstyle. I had this idea that dipping 5 levels into a martial class (probably Hunter Ranger) to grab extra attack would synergize well with all the on-hits available to me, like Blessing of the Forge, Elemental, Magic and later on Holy Weapon, and Bestow Curse. As well, if I dipped into Ranger I could get some extra on-hits: Hunter's Mark, +2 vs. Favoured Enemy, Duelist. HOWEVER, upon asking Reddit for feedback on the idea, the general consensus was that this would make me both a crappy cleric and a crappy martial class, and both my damage and utility would be better if I stuck to Pure Cleric. They mostly chided me for saying I wanted more melee damage, since apparently most of a Cleric's damage is supposed to come from spells (especially later).

My questions are these: Would this 5 level dip really be so suboptimal? And are there any homebrew solutions to offer my DM that would be balanced so I could pull this off? Maybe switching the level 3 and 5 Conclave bonuses (Getting Extra Attack at 3 instead of Colossus Slayer/Horde Breaker)? I don't know nearly enough about this game to know what would be balanced/optimal and what wouldn't be. I'll probably just end up going Pure Cleric, but I'm going to grasp at straws for a bit before I give this on-hit Cleric dream up.

Looking back I probably should have picked Paladin if I wanted the buff and smash playstyle. Forge Cleric just looked so cool! And all these on-hit bonuses will be an utter waste if I am destined to be a pure spellcaster later.

Any and all feedback is greatly appreciated.

You cant go wrong with Paladin 6/ Cleric 14.

Paladin advances your casting (leaving you with 9th level slots), gives you more Channel divinity options, plus adds Smite and +Cha to saves to your list (and martial weapons).

Fluffy as **** too.

[stoutstien]

Grab magic initiate, take wizard, grab booming blade as one of your cantrips and sheild for lv one spell. Congrats you can keep pace with smashing faces and have nigh unhittable ac

[Malifice]

Grab magic initiate, take wizard, grab booming blade as one of your cantrips and sheild for lv one spell. Congrats you can keep pace with smashing faces and have nigh unhittable ac

Once per long rest.

[CTurbo]

Yeah I really dislike Shield as the Magic Initiate spell since it's just once per long rest. Find Familiar is much better.

Getting Booming Blade would help a lot.

Remember, you can cast Spirit Guardians and Spiritual Weapon, and sit down in melee and attack once, then bonus action Spiritual Weapon all while tearing the enemy up with Spirit Guardians. So you can actually do a LOT of damage in melee already. Plus both of those spells scale well with higher slots.

ONE time with my 12th level Tempest Cleric, I set up the Spiritual Weapon + Spirit Guardians combo, but with my highest spell slots. On my turn, I attacked once with Booming Blade for 4d8+Str damage, then used my bonus action to attack with SW for 4d8+Wis damage, all while dishing out 6d8 damage to all enemies within 10ft of me. AND at least a time or two, I was able to use Booming Blade with my reaction for another 4d8+Str damage. If any of my Booming Blade victims would have moved, they would have taken an additional 3d8 damage. AND anytime I DID get hit, and hadn't used my reaction, the attacker took 2d8 damage just from hitting me. Talk about a melee beast. That is a LOT of d8s each round lol

[Finieous]

The bigger problem is that you'll spend a long time playing from level 5 to level 10, and your campaign may end early. This is why others suggest you start martial to get extra attack now, before going cleric.

You can cast spiritual weapon and get a second attack, or you could forgo the shield and use twin light hammers. You also get extra damage at level 8, so not all is lost.


That's actually an understatement IMO. With bless, spiritual weapon, spirit guardians, Divine Strike, etc., you can remain very useful in melee as a cleric to 9th level. Additional perks depend on subclass. These can easily make up for the loss of one Extra Attack in Tier 2. Get your 5th-level spells, and if your campaign ends there, so be it -- there won't be an opportunity for your melee ability to become obsolete.

If the campaign continues, with a fighter subclass, you get ASIs at CL 4, 8, 13, 15, and 17. I really like EK to add melee cantrips (comes online at 12th level, so booming blade is adding +2d8 plus move adders), defensive spells such as shield and absorb elements, Extra Attack at 14th, War Magic at 16th, booming blade goes to +3d8 at 17th, then Eldritch Strike at 19th (nasty with 5th-level cleric spells) and third attack as your capstone at 20th level.

In a nutshell, you stay competitive through Tier 2 as a cleric, then in Tier 3 and 4 you get lots of new melee abilities that synergize well with your cleric levels to stay competitive in those tiers as well.

[Woglin]

Hey all,

First time poster here, still a newbie at DnD so I'm looking for a bit of advice. I'm playing my first campaign with some friends, playing as a Forge Cleric (we just hit level 5), and so far loving the buff people and smash things playstyle. I had this idea that dipping 5 levels into a martial class (probably Hunter Ranger) to grab extra attack would synergize well with all the on-hits available to me, like Blessing of the Forge, Elemental, Magic and later on Holy Weapon, and Bestow Curse. As well, if I dipped into Ranger I could get some extra on-hits: Hunter's Mark, +2 vs. Favoured Enemy, Duelist. HOWEVER, upon asking Reddit for feedback on the idea, the general consensus was that this would make me both a crappy cleric and a crappy martial class, and both my damage and utility would be better if I stuck to Pure Cleric. They mostly chided me for saying I wanted more melee damage, since apparently most of a Cleric's damage is supposed to come from spells (especially later).

My questions are these: Would this 5 level dip really be so suboptimal? And are there any homebrew solutions to offer my DM that would be balanced so I could pull this off? Maybe switching the level 3 and 5 Conclave bonuses (Getting Extra Attack at 3 instead of Colossus Slayer/Horde Breaker)? I don't know nearly enough about this game to know what would be balanced/optimal and what wouldn't be. I'll probably just end up going Pure Cleric, but I'm going to grasp at straws for a bit before I give this on-hit Cleric dream up.

Looking back I probably should have picked Paladin if I wanted the buff and smash playstyle. Forge Cleric just looked so cool! And all these on-hit bonuses will be an utter waste if I am destined to be a pure spellcaster later.

Any and all feedback is greatly appreciated.

Cleric + Ranger is a perfectly good combination for a melee cleric. We have one in our local Adventurer's League game and she's a powerhouse (admittedly, she also has a Dwarven Thrower and a Belt of Giant Strength to support that combo). I'd suggest sticking with cleric to level 9 though, long enough to nab both Divine Strike and 5th level spells (which includes the powerful and always-hilarious Animate Objects for a Forge Cleric).

FWIW, our Shield Dwarf Cleric went: Levels 1-9 as Forge Cleric, taking +2 Wis and Shield Master at levels 4 and 8 respectively. She then took 5 levels of Hunter Ranger, picking up Dueling Style, Colossus Slayer, Warcaster, and Extra Attack. She's virtually impossible to kill, and while she doesn't churn out damage quite as fast as the Paladin, she's a VERY respectable front-line fighter and party buffer.

[MrStabby]

If your DM allows it I think a switch to paladins would work. Ask if you can keep as many forge features as possible. Swap domain spells to keep forge spells, keep the domain channel divinity and so on. Ask to swap casting stat/proficiency to wisdom or ask to rejig your stats.

Otherwise multiclassing is fine. Ranger is solid but will need 13 dex, you might have dumped dex due to having heavy armour proficiency.

Rather than bumping dex to multiclass there might be more mileage from boosting cha and going valor bard or swords bard. You have spells that scale well and will get the spell slots to scale them. You will get the martial weapon proficiency you probably want and a few other benefits. Downside is a further level delay in extra attack. It probably depends what level you play to.

[Contrast]

Grab magic initiate, take wizard, grab booming blade as one of your cantrips and sheild for lv one spell. Congrats you can keep pace with smashing faces and have nigh unhittable ac

I'd also suggest this is a much more viable way to remain relevant in melee.

It even works pretty well fluff wise as your weapon will be wreathed in holy energy!

GFB/BB - Find Familiar is probably strictly the best but there are other options. If you chose warlock Hex would potentially allow you to eke out a little more combat damage in combats where you weren't concentrating on something else and is actually somewhat relevant as a debuff in social situations depending on how obvious your DM thinks spellcasting is.

[Vogie]

Kinda obscure Wombo-combo-bordering-on-nonbo, you can get an "extra attack" with 3 levels of Berzerker Barbarian.

As you're a cleric, you'll eventually be able to GR away your exhaustion.

[Kyrinthic]

For a full cleric, there is a tricky turn around. for the first 5-7 levels, you mix it up in melee. After that, you have enough spells, that the optimal choices in combat are generally casting a spell. If you spend a lot of effort making the combat part better, you lose out on the casting part, which is what you should be awesome at. The confusion is there because the melee thing works at the lowest levels.

A melee that has no cleric bits will melee better than one with cleric bits. A cleric with no multiclassing will be a better spellcaster. This is true, but it doesnt mean you cant find a middle ground that works, just be aware of what you are giving up. The synergies you can build can be strong. You are going to become hard pressed to find the stats to support the build though.


So, the most important part of a full caster class like the cleric is spells, obviously. You need a class that adds to that, and one that adds extra attacks to boot.

The best option here is paladin, it is flavorful, and smites with a cleric set of spell slots can be quite powerful at all levels. But it means you need a good Cha, and clerics rarely have that. Might be worth the costs to get level 6 on this one.

Second option might be a ranger, less direct synergy, but works well for certain clerics (not so much forge clerics though), still gives 1/2 spellcasting, and some interesting things on the list. Most of the level 3 features give you some extra damage, and extra attack at 5 is good stuff. This one requires dex, which isnt likely to be a strong point on a forge cleric either.

Both of these are half casters, you lose out on the ability to have level 9 spell slots if you go more than 5 levels, and you lost out on the ability to know level 9 spells regardless. This is a pretty big hit at the end game. More relevantly though, you will be behind by a spell level compared to other casters in your group, and have a couple spell slots less.

Another interesting option is the valor bard. They have some interesting extra boosts, get extra attack at 6, but have a full caster level, meaning you get spell slots 'on time', though you still suffer being behind on spells known. But again, this requires Cha, which you probably dont have a lot of.

I would avoid any class without at least half casting, as you will hurt your spellcasting far too much.


TLDR: Paladin, Ranger, or Bard can work, but will require Cha or Dex to do. You current stats are going to be very relevant. You will be trading high end spell power for this, and you wont be as strong as a full melee class, but you will have a lot of versitility.

[SirGraystone]

Cleric should use Spiritual Weapon as an extra attack, if you really want to multiclass fighter level 2 for a fighting style and action surge. Action surge let you cast 2 spells in the same round.

[Deathtongue]

I remember getting ridiculed when I stated that it was unfair for there not to be a cleric domain that got Extra Attack when we have Hexblade, Bladesinger, and College of Swords/Valor.

[Kyrinthic]

I remember getting ridiculed when I stated that it was unfair for there not to be a cleric domain that got Extra Attack when we have Hexblade, Bladesinger, and College of Swords/Valor.

giving a cleric extra attack instead of the +D8 on an attack would be pretty much a wash. Cant imagine it really impacting anything of note.

Other than hexblade (warlocks exist in a funny place), those archetypes are only swinging a weapon around for giggles, not in any fight that is meaningful, at least in the higher levels, the same would go for a cleric with an extra attack. Once cantrips are doing 3-4 dice, weapon attacks dont hold up, and even cantrips are weak compared to real spells, which you have enough to be casting for most combat rounds in a day by that level.

[GlenSmash!]

5 levels in a class with Extra Attack, then the rest in any flavor of cleric works just fine.

The only problem is most games don't take place at a high enough level to enjoy the effort expended.

[MagneticKitty]

I would avoid more than a level 3 multiclass, because lv 17 forge cleric's ability of resistance to all mundane weapon damage. I'd take a way to get a bonus attack. Monk bonus unarmed (kensei) / Pam bonus hit Or some other melee feat. Fighter is good for fighting style (defense) and action surge because your ac is already really good with heavy armor and +1 ac at level 6 cleric. Paladin would let you smite with full caster slots and have defense fighting style.
I think you're fine with adding a bit of martial just don't go over lv 3. Eldritch knight would be good for utility spells and attacking melee cantrip (scales with character level this will help add punch to your single attack and pick up warcaster) and familiar. Or add warlock for pact weapon +1 weapon from invocation.

[Foxhound438]

Grab magic initiate, take wizard, grab booming blade as one of your cantrips and sheild for lv one spell. Congrats you can keep pace with smashing faces and have nigh unhittable ac

this is probably the best route, honestly, though I would maybe pass on shield.

Remember that you're 3 levels away from getting a nice boost to melee damage in cleric anyways, although not a huge one, but it does start to stack up pretty nicely with booming blade. If you take MI at level 8, you'll be swinging 3d8+str, which will be a respectable ~ 17-19 damage on average for your action, before any other spell is thrown in. For comparison, a fighter that isn't using great weapon master would be dealing somewhere around 26 with a greatsword, and you can more than make the difference there with spirit guardians.

[Nessie]

Are you committed to the idea of attacking twice or are you more interested in upping you melee damage in general? As some of the others have recommended, grabbing booming blade (or green-flame blade for the fluff) via magic initiate or multiclassing OR my recommendation is via spell sniper. This will still let you be rather potent in melee without delaying your casting. Booming blade also has terrific synergy with Warcaster, so I would recommend picking that up as well (assuming you don't have it already).