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Irreverent Fool
2007-09-05, 05:52 AM
I'm building a charge-based (not mounted) paladin that I expect my players to face in a few levels and I need to know:

Does the Smite Evil class ability apply before or after multiplying the damage during a charge in which the paladin spell Rhino's Rush (SpC) has been used?

This is particularly important because he's got the Smiting Charge alternate class feature from the PHBII.

"Does smite damage get multiplied on a critical?" would yield the same answer, I suppose.

Reel On, Love
2007-09-05, 05:54 AM
Smite damage is a flat damage bonus. Flat damage bonuses get multiplied. Bonus dice of damage (like sneak attack) do not.

Irreverent Fool
2007-09-05, 06:05 AM
Smite damage is a flat damage bonus. Flat damage bonuses get multiplied. Bonus dice of damage (like sneak attack) do not.

Quick and to the point. Thanks! While I'm here, Mr. Barbarian 1/Paladin 5 also has pounce and I'm curious as to...

Do you gain the +2 from charging to all the attacks made that round or just the first when using pounce?

Do you gain the extra 2 points per paladin level to smiting 'on a charge attack' when using 'charging smite' if you smite evil with your second attack with pounce?

Reel On, Love
2007-09-05, 06:12 AM
Quick and to the point. Thanks! While I'm here, Mr. Barbarian 1/Paladin 5 also has pounce and I'm curious as to whether you gain the +2 from charging to all the attacks made that round or just the first.

All of them.

Funkyodor
2007-09-05, 07:18 AM
I've always played that the extra damage above and beyond a weapons base damage is not multiplied.


Critical Hits

...(some text removed)...

A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2.

Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit.

I would consider Smite to be Extra damage.

I guess it depends on your definition of Extra damage. Is STR bonus extra damage? Is Smite? Is the weapons Flaming bonus? The weapons Magic Bonus?

Dhavaer
2007-09-05, 07:27 AM
I've always played that the extra damage above and beyond a weapons base damage is not multiplied.



I would consider Smite to be Extra damage.

I guess it depends on your definition of Extra damage. Is STR bonus extra damage? Is Smite? Is the weapons Flaming bonus? The weapons Magic Bonus?

You've skipped out a very important word from that quote:


Multiplying Damage

Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results. Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage.

Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon’s normal damage are never multiplied.

Smite doesn't add extra dice, so it's multiplied.

Funkyodor
2007-09-05, 07:50 AM
Heh, heh. It's funny when the description under "Critical Hits" and "Multiplying Damage" has differing exception quotes. Wow I never caught that before, thanks for pointing that out. Which to use?

Quietus
2007-09-05, 08:06 AM
Heh, heh. It's funny when the description under "Critical Hits" and "Multiplying Damage" has differing exception quotes. Wow I never caught that before, thanks for pointing that out. Which to use?

The section on critical hits would be the primary source for dealing with critical hits, so I'd use that.

Person_Man
2007-09-05, 08:50 AM
Quick and to the point. Thanks! While I'm here, Mr. Barbarian 1/Paladin 5 also has pounce and I'm curious as to...

Do you gain the +2 from charging to all the attacks made that round or just the first when using pounce?

Do you gain the extra 2 points per paladin level to smiting 'on a charge attack' when using 'charging smite' if you smite evil with your second attack with pounce?

You can't be a Barbarian 1/Paladin 5 because of alignment restrictions. You need to be the superior Paladin of Freedom (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedCoreClass.html#freedom-slaughter-and-tyranny) instead, or just drop the Barbarian level (which would maximize your Smite and mount abilities anyway).

Also, I suggest being a Strongheart Halfling or similar Small race. Paladin Charge builds do best when mounted. Small races can ride medium mounts anywhere without penalty. Medium races have a very hard time riding large mounts while in castles, dungeons, etc.

Nerd-o-rama
2007-09-05, 09:36 AM
The section on critical hits would be the primary source for dealing with critical hits, so I'd use that.
For critical hits. For this case, where damage is multiplied by a spell effect, you'd almost certainly use the "multiplying damage" rule.

Also, I can't help but think the line under critical hits is a typo. Everyone I've ever seen playing the game multiplies all non-dice damage on a crit, including the CharOp guys that go over the rules with a fine-tooth comb. Anyway, I'll stick to multiplying all damage on a Crit.

Also, OP: Use a Lance. Redoubles (which, combined with Rhino's Rush, triples) all damage on a charge.

Starbuck_II
2007-09-05, 11:31 AM
You can't be a Barbarian 1/Paladin 5 because of alignment restrictions. You need to be the superior Paladin of Freedom (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedCoreClass.html#freedom-slaughter-and-tyranny) instead, or just drop the Barbarian level (which would maximize your Smite and mount abilities anyway).

Also, I suggest being a Strongheart Halfling or similar Small race. Paladin Charge builds do best when mounted. Small races can ride medium mounts anywhere without penalty. Medium races have a very hard time riding large mounts while in castles, dungeons, etc.

Why can't he?
I'm NG Barbarian I become lawful losing rage. But by the divine I am empowered with power: "I am, nay, I always was a Paladin. I just hadn't heard my true calling". (it does say that not everyone realizes the call to serve right away).
So he stays Paladin 5 levels.

Why Barbarian mechanically? Pounce.
Paladin gets Charge + pounce= 2 attacks in a charge.



Anyway, I'll stick to multiplying all damage on a Crit.


Remember: not flaming, nor Sneak attack. Damage dice do not get multiplied. Only flat damage bosts.


Also any flat and extra dice from ToB manuevers specifically don't as an exception.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2007-09-05, 11:40 AM
Also, OP: Use a Lance. Redoubles (which, combined with Rhino's Rush, triples) all damage on a charge.

Only when mounted, which the OP is not.

Person_Man
2007-09-05, 12:38 PM
Here's another option: Barbarian 1/Paladin of Freedom 5/Ronin 2/Whatever X

Ronin can deduct from their AC and add to their damage. They also get +1d6 Sneak Attack. Then take the Craven feat from Champions of Ruin. When making a sneak attack, you deal an extra 1 point of damage per character level. Since its a static bonus, its multiplied when you charge. On top of that, take Power Attack and Shock Trooper.

So, lets say you win Initiative or have a friend cast Greater Invisibility on you.

When mounted and using a lance two handed, your charge damage would be:

3[Base damage + BAB + character level + (BAB*2) + (Str*1.5) + Smite + static magical bonuses] + 1d6

Of course, your AC will be garbage. But lances are reach weapons, so with Combat Reflexes you should be ok.

Irreverent Fool
2007-09-05, 11:40 PM
You can't be a Barbarian 1/Paladin 5 because of alignment restrictions. You need to be the superior Paladin of Freedom (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedCoreClass.html#freedom-slaughter-and-tyranny) instead, or just drop the Barbarian level (which would maximize your Smite and mount abilities anyway).

Also, I suggest being a Strongheart Halfling or similar Small race. Paladin Charge builds do best when mounted. Small races can ride medium mounts anywhere without penalty. Medium races have a very hard time riding large mounts while in castles, dungeons, etc.

You can be a Barbarian 1/Paladin 5 if your alignment changes. You lose your rage ability when you lose chaotic alignment and you can't return to Paladin if you multiclass out of it (unless the other class specifically says so). This character is specifically designed not to be a mounted combatant and still rely on charges.

I'm not fully optimizing for charges for story reason and out of mercy for my players. Thanks for the tips though! I'm kind of wanting to play a charge build after putting this guy together... it'll end up being the first halfling I've ever played! :D

Edit: Starbuck, guess I didn't read all the posts. You hit the nail on the head.

Renegade Paladin
2007-09-05, 11:51 PM
You can't be a Barbarian 1/Paladin 5 because of alignment restrictions. You need to be the superior Paladin of Freedom (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/unearthedCoreClass.html#freedom-slaughter-and-tyranny) instead, or just drop the Barbarian level (which would maximize your Smite and mount abilities anyway).
What in God's name is superior about the non-paladin of freedom? :smallconfused: And he could easily have that multiclass combo; he just couldn't rage.

tainsouvra
2007-09-05, 11:52 PM
I can't help but think the line under critical hits is a typo. Everyone I've ever seen playing the game multiplies all non-dice damage on a crit, including the CharOp guys that go over the rules with a fine-tooth comb. Anyway, I'll stick to multiplying all damage on a Crit. It is indeed an error, which is made clear by the text earlier in the same section:
A critical hit means that you roll your damage more than once, with all your usual bonuses, and add the rolls together. Unless otherwise specified, the threat range for a critical hit on an attack roll is 20, and the multiplier is ×2.

Exception: Extra damage over and above a weapon’s normal damage is not multiplied when you score a critical hit. If they actually meant all extra damage, rather than simply extra damage dice, then the bolded portion would have never been included. The actual printed books, of course, specify damage dice.

Additionally, as has been noted, the OP was asking about damage being multiplied by a spell rather than a critical, making the section on multiplying damage the primary source.