What are the major issues with large PC’s and how do we get around it?

[Ralanr]

So I had a talk with my friend about how the centaur player race in the latest UA doesn’t really work thematically as a medium race (and how wording makes their mount racial hilarious). We ended up discussing a few of the reasons why Wizards just didn’t make them large, the biggest was how it effected Attacks or opportunity. The idea of a large PC with Polearm master and sentinel is terrifying (especially since it wouldn’t constantly require the enlarge spell).

So what are some other problems that large PC’s would bring and how do we get around that?

[Unoriginal]

The main issue is that Large creatures can use Large weapons, which deal twice the damage dice.

We go around it by not having Large PC races, at least not those who can use Large weapons.

[Ralanr]

The main issue is that Large creatures can use Large weapons, which deal twice the damage dice.

We go around it by not having Large PC races, at least not those who can use Large weapons.

I don’t remember seeing a table in the PHB that lists large weapon damage die. Is this an official thing or are we basing it off of older editions?

I know Pathfinder has such a table for large and smaller races (which makes me not want to play a small race in Melee in pathfinder).

[Boverk]

the only reference I can think of to damage increases due to being large are the extra 1d4 from the enlarge/reduce person spell.

Other than that, sheer amount of space covered is the real issue

[nickl_2000]

From a guy playing a Moon Druid, I'll say it's a pain in the rear when you are in an enclosed dungeon or a castle with small room.

[Unoriginal]

I don’t remember seeing a table in the PHB that lists large weapon damage die. Is this an official thing or are we basing it off of older editions?

It's official, it's in the DMG p. 278.


If a monster wields a manufactured weapon, it deals damage appropriate to the weapon. For example, a greataxe in the hands of a Medium monster deals 1d12 slashing damage plus the monster's Strength modifier, as is normal for that weapon. Big monsters typically wield oversized weapons that deal extra dice of damage on a hit. Double the weapon dice if the creature is Large, triple the weapon dice if it's Huge, and quadruple the weapon dice if it's Gargantuan. For example, a Huge giant wielding an appropriately sized greataxe deals 3d12 slashing damage (plus its Strength bonus), instead of the normal 1d12.

[Ralanr]

It's official, it's in the DMG p. 278.

Good to know. That you.

[mephnick]

Grappling, weapon damage and area threatened, but that's about it. The first two are easy enough to get around and just say the PC version of the class only uses medium weapons and grapples as a medium creature, though I'm not convinced the grappling is a huge problem. Area threatened is pretty hard to get around. Large creatures don't all have reach but they still threaten more squares.

Generally in past editions these things were tempered by Large creatures have an AC hit of some sort for being big targets, or a level adjustment. Level adjustment is beyond where they want to go with 5e and penalties to stats only seems to be cool if you're a kobold or orc (seriously, what the hell?) so I'm not sure what the fix is.

I guess the other thing is design of maps in published adventures, but the quality of those is so up and down anyway that who really gives a ****.

[Foxhound438]

I do think it boils down to the weapon damage. If you pick a large race, every hit from you is as good as a crit for someone else.

[alchahest]

Also PCs are not monsters. Monsters have other rules which don't apply to PCs. the only type of precedent we have for what happens when a player character is size L is when the enlarge spell is cast on them. Which is an additional D4, not doubling dice. (unless I suppose, you are using a dagger).

[strangebloke]

Area threatened is pretty hard to get around. Large creatures don't all have reach but they still threaten more squares.

Generally in past editions these things were tempered by Large creatures have an AC hit of some sort for being big targets, or a level adjustment. Level adjustment is beyond where they want to go with 5e and penalties to stats only seems to be cool if you're a kobold or orc (seriously, what the hell?) so I'm not sure what the fix is.

As far as threatened space is concerned, there's no difference between a Large Creature and a creature riding a Large Creature. A creature calculates range from the edge of the squares he occupies. A rider occupies the center of the large creature he is riding. Therefore he 'occupies' four squares just like his mount. Therefore he has the threatened area of a creature one size category larger.

This is why the Cavalier is built around threatened area control; mounted characters have a larger threatened area.

Tactically, there are consequences to being bigger, mostly that a lot of creatures can gang up on you in melee and that you can't move around freely. (both are bad) These effects are also true of mounted characters.

I don't really think, if weapon size is restricted, that there is any problem with large PCs outside of grappling rules and weapon size, both of which can be handwaved trivially.

[Cynthaer]

Also PCs are not monsters. Monsters have other rules which don't apply to PCs. the only type of precedent we have for what happens when a player character is size L is when the enlarge spell is cast on them. Which is an additional D4, not doubling dice. (unless I suppose, you are using a dagger).

It's true that 5e's design is perfectly comfortable with just saying "PCs and monsters use different rules".

That said, I think it's pretty ugly when you have a Large Longsword deal 2d6 in an ogre's hands, then start dealing 1d6+1d4 the moment a PC picks it up.

Aside from that, I haven't done the math, but I strongly suspect permanent +1d4 damage per attack is still way too much power, and would cause Large warrior classes to just have too much output compared to everyone else.

I think this month's centaur UA has really sparked the discussion because unlike most Large races, it comes with an obvious reason to not wield Large weapons anyway.


As far as threatened space is concerned, there's no difference between a Large Creature and a creature riding a Large Creature. A creature calculates range from the edge of the squares he occupies. A rider occupies the center of the large creature he is riding. Therefore he 'occupies' four squares just like his mount. Therefore he has the threatened area of a creature one size category larger.

This is why the Cavalier is built around threatened area control; mounted characters have a larger threatened area.

It's worth noting that, per Crawford, mounted characters do not have a larger threatened area by RAW.

https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/928363566163308544

(In various branches of that thread, he basically states that the actual PC still has a defined 5'x5' location while mounted. In one tweet, he explicitly says that when using a grid, you can place the rider in any square occupied by the mount.)

That said, it's not stated that the rider's relative location on the mount (i.e., NW corner) must remain the same throughout the battle, so you kind of have the reach of a Large character on your turn (by moving within the Large space), but the reach of a Medium/Small character between turns (since you still only occupy one square).

My impression is that the designers don't find this too powerful, because it requires buying and maintaining the mount (or using a spell slot to summon it).

Reach-wise, we might compare the Bugbear's "Long-Limbed" ability, which (with a Reach weapon) lets it attack a 7x7 (!) area on its turn, but still only a 5x5 area between turns.


Tactically, there are consequences to being bigger, mostly that a lot of creatures can gang up on you in melee and that you can't move around freely. (both are bad) These effects are also true of mounted characters.

I don't really think, if weapon size is restricted, that there is any problem with large PCs outside of grappling rules and weapon size, both of which can be handwaved trivially.

My concern is that for many melee characters, having more area for foes to attack is at best neutral and may even be an upside. Straight-up tanks generally want the enemy to attack them, because it means they're not attacking somebody else with less AC and HP.

I think part of the problem is that the effects of being Large are largely synergistic with the same builds: A Strength Fighter/Paladin/Barbarian with heavy armor (except Barbarians) who makes up the front line with either a shield for high AC or a reach weapon for massive threatened area.

Most versions of these builds want to occupy as much space as possible, threaten as much space as possible, be adjacent to as many foes and allies as possible, and even want to be near as much space as possible in the case of Paladins and Barbarians who have auras!

It might help if the Large race didn't have +Str or +Con, to reduce the synergy with those builds, but then you have the thematic problem that most Large races really should have one or both of those stats. It's sort of the inverse of the Mountain Dwarf, who can get +4 to stats and Heavy Armor, simply because those are usually redundant.

[strangebloke]

My impression is that the designers don't find this too powerful, because it requires buying and maintaining the mount (or using a spell slot to summon it).

Reach-wise, we might compare the Bugbear's "Long-Limbed" ability, which (with a Reach weapon) lets it attack a 7x7 (!) area on its turn, but still only a 5x5 area between turns.

Interesting Crawford Tweet. Yeah, I'm not sure how I would handle that issue. I mean, it's basically reach +2.5. Imagine a Conquest paladin getting a free +2.5 radius to his aura! Being mounted does have it's downsides, of course. Fear effects are hilariously painful for mounted characters.


My concern is that for many melee characters, having more area for foes to attack is at best neutral and may even be an upside. Straight-up tanks generally want the enemy to attack them, because it means they're not attacking somebody else with less AC and HP.

I think part of the problem is that the effects of being Large are largely synergistic with the same builds: A Strength Fighter/Paladin/Barbarian with heavy armor (except Barbarians) who makes up the front line with either a shield for high AC or a reach weapon for massive threatened area.

Most versions of these builds want to occupy as much space as possible, threaten as much space as possible, be adjacent to as many foes and allies as possible, and even want to be near as much space as possible in the case of Paladins and Barbarians who have auras!

It might help if the Large race didn't have +Str or +Con, to reduce the synergy with those builds, but then you have the thematic problem that most Large races really should have one or both of those stats. It's sort of the inverse of the Mountain Dwarf, who can get +4 to stats and Heavy Armor, simply because those are usually redundant.
Well, you are also more vulnerable to ranged attacking, and to flanking, if that's in play. But yeah, it's a strong benefit.

I would hazard to say, however, that it's possibly a little weaker than flight, or always-on advantage, both of which are also given as racial features. (granted, kobolds come with... limitations)

[KorvinStarmast]

The answer is: don't try to get around it. The basic game system was built around medium (and a few small) sized characters. (Which makes the Goliath PC one of many "you are trying to hard" problems; likewise with the Centaur and Minotaur in the current UA).

[alchahest]

Goliath REALLY isn't "trying too hard". The size thing only affects weight allowance. you don't gain reach, additional damage, or taking up more area on the table. It's been toned down from 3.x where they count as large only when advantageous.

[KorvinStarmast]

Goliath REALLY isn't "trying too hard". The size thing only affects weight allowance. you don't gain reach, additional damage, or taking up more area on the table. It's been toned down from 3.x where they count as large only when advantageous. They gave the bugbear PC reach, but not the Goliath. Sorry, they are making some (IMO) silly mistakes that are very preventable.

[Drascin]

Honestly, the damage thing seems easily curtailed in this case. Centaurs are big, but they're big because of their horse part adding mass and length, the human part is normal human sized, so put in a thing in their racial statblock about how due to this they use human-sized medium weapons despite counting as Large for other purposes, and done. Area threatened is an absolute nonissue (cause as mentioned, anyone on a horse threatens the same area anyway), and honestly the grappling thing mostly makes me shrug, does not seem anywhere near as useful as a lot of other racial traits.

[Ninja_Prawn]

There are a couple of other cases I can think of where Large size might be unduly beneficial:

Abilities like Whirlwind Attack and thunderwave suddenly get 50% stronger.
Lots of monsters have abilities that target "Medium or smaller" creatures; Large creatures are harder to swallow, engulf etc.

On the flip side, there are drawbacks too. Armour should cost significantly more, you need more cover if you want to hide or shelter from missile fire, there are spaces you can't squeeze into... My feeling is that a Large race could be made to work, if you took care with how you built it. And centaurs are a good place to start, because they clearly use medium sized weapons.