My little Archer

[SchokoNougat]

Hey guys, i am pretty new to this Forum, in fact i only created this account because i found so much help in your threads that i am confident you can help me.

So i recently started playing dnd, about 1 month ago and i am really hooked. My first Character is Marek. To keep this short his family was killed by some criminals and the guards and subsecuently the law looked away. Since this Time he makes a living as a Killer for hire but only targets criminals. So he doesn't see himself as evil.

I am not a hardcore optimizer...yet. So i do Not use a Xbow but a Longbow. I started as Vhuman and took the Sharpshooter feat.
I started fighter but i think past Level 11 there is not much to get.
The 4 attack does not look that good if i can get so much more elsewhere.

So my Plan is to take 5 Level in fighter first. BM vor the Battlefield Control and Dex Asi to get to 18.
After that 3 Level in Rogue get me Cunning Action which seems so good. There were time where i was in meele and basicly useless.

But now i am not quite sure what to do.
First i thought 3 Level of gloom stalker ranger. This wood bring defense fightingstyle, spellcasting(Hunters Mark) and most importantly, Darksight and dread Ambusher.

Another Option would be 3 Level in warlock. This would give Devils sight, Hex, darkness for constant advantage.


Since i am playing AL UA is not an Option. Either option would bring me to lvl 11 which is realistic to reach.
So i guess my question is...what do you think? What would you do? If Marek goes on what would you do with the 9 level that are left? I Guess lvl 11 Fighter would be a must have.


Thanks in advance and Sorry for the formatting and writing.
I did my best but english is not my Mother tongue and my german autocorrectur from my mobil is killing me.
Will fix as much as i can once i am home.

[nickl_2000]

I am not a hardcore optimizer...yet. So i do Not use a Xbow but a Longbow. I started as Vhuman and took the Sharpshooter feat.
I started fighter but i think past Level 11 there is not much to get.
The 4 attack does not look that good if i can get so much more elsewhere.

So my Plan is to take 5 Level in fighter first. BM vor the Battlefield Control and Dex Asi to get to 18.
After that 3 Level in Rogue get me Cunning Action which seems so good. There were time where i was in meele and basicly useless.

But now i am not quite sure what to do.
First i thought 3 Level of gloom stalker ranger. This wood bring defense fightingstyle, spellcasting(Hunters Mark) and most importantly, Darksight and dread Ambusher.

Another Option would be 3 Level in warlock. This would give Devils sight, Hex, darkness for constant advantage.


Thanks in advance and Sorry for the formatting and writing.
I did my best but english is not my Mother tongue and my german autocorrectur from my mobil is killing me.
Will fix as much as i can once i am home.

Welcome :)


My first thought is that if you are going to go 5 levels into Fighter, you may as well go one more to get that second ASI. With it you can either pick up crossbow expert or bump your Dex to 20 (I'd go 20 dex). At this point you have 2 attacks and will do perfectly fine. Ranger would be a great choice if you are in a party that is often doing things in the dark and need darkvision. If not, I would go straight rogue for the sneak attack damage and skills. The level 2 cunning actions is amazingly powerful, and at level 3 you can choose a Rogue subclass. As for a Rogue subclass, I personally thing AT would be fun. You can use the Mage Hand to grab any weapons dropped do to the BM disarming attack.

[strangebloke]

Hey guys, i am pretty new to this Forum, in fact i only created this account because i found so much help in your threads that i am confident you can help me.

So i recently started playing dnd, about 1 month ago and i am really hooked. My first Character is Marek. To keep this short his family was killed by some criminals and the guards and subsecuently the law looked away. Since this Time he makes a living as a Killer for hire but only targets criminals. So he doesn't see himself as evil.

I am not a hardcore optimizer...yet. So i do Not use a Xbow but a Longbow. I started as Vhuman and took the Sharpshooter feat.
I started fighter but i think past Level 11 there is not much to get.
The 4 attack does not look that good if i can get so much more elsewhere.

So my Plan is to take 5 Level in fighter first. BM vor the Battlefield Control and Dex Asi to get to 18.
After that 3 Level in Rogue get me Cunning Action which seems so good. There were time where i was in meele and basicly useless.

But now i am not quite sure what to do.
First i thought 3 Level of gloom stalker ranger. This wood bring defense fightingstyle, spellcasting(Hunters Mark) and most importantly, Darksight and dread Ambusher.

Another Option would be 3 Level in warlock. This would give Devils sight, Hex, darkness for constant advantage.


Since i am playing AL UA is not an Option. Either option would bring me to lvl 11 which is realistic to reach.
So i guess my question is...what do you think? What would you do? If Marek goes on what would you do with the 9 level that are left? I Guess lvl 11 Fighter would be a must have.


Thanks in advance and Sorry for the formatting and writing.
I did my best but english is not my Mother tongue and my german autocorrectur from my mobil is killing me.
Will fix as much as i can once i am home.

Hi!

I'm going to try and sum up what I think your concerns are:
1. You're worried that at high levels, the fighter is lacking in features and will not be worth continuing in.
2. You're concerned about getting trapped in melee, unable to be really effective.

Fighter is strong at every level of the game. The key to understanding feats is that they don't just make you stronger in your niche (Sharpshooter) but they can also make you better at things your character is (by default) bad at.

So by level 12 you'll have six feats/ASI so you've got tons of room to diversify. Here's some possible feats you could consider.

Feat Reccs
a. Inspiring Leader: Give everyone in the party extra hitpoints on each short rest. It feels really cool to be 'the leader' and your party will love you for this.

b. Healer: Very similar in function to inspiring leader, but different aesthetically.

c. Ritual Caster: You are now the party wizard/cleric. You can get tons of spells like Locate Object, Identify, Detect Magic, etc. This gives you something to do when not in combat.

d. Prodigy: You are now the party rogue. You can get expertise in stealth, and proficiency in thieve's tools. Alternately, pick up expertise in intimidation and just glare your way through all your social encounters. Alternately get expertise in athletics and become a champion wrestler while having mediocre Strength.

e. Mobile: You don't like getting stuck in melee? No fear! You can make a single swipe with your trusty rapier, and then run away with no worries! Also you're very fast.

Multiclassing:
None of the builds you listed are bad, and in all honesty, the high level Battlemaster features are kind of underwhelming, but since you're new to the game, I would advise that you don't really worry about it for now. Just play your character, and if you feel like multiclassing later on, you can always do that.

That said... if you do multiclass I would wait until level 6. That second ASI is very nice.
1. Rogue: a solid option. Expertise gives you out of combat flexibility and cunning action makes you very mobile. Sneak attack progression means that you aren't falling behind in damage-dealing.

2. Ranger: Darkvision is great in some campaigns, mediocre in others. The ambush abilities are decent. I would highly reccomend picking up prodigy at some point so that you can take more advantage of your sneaky flavor. Hunter's mark means that you're not falling behind on damage, and you get a second fighting style. Combos well with rogue.

3. Warlock: Not what I'd recommend. you'll fall behind on damage since the warlock's main damage-boosting feature is Eldritch Blast, which you won't be using. Also, while Darkness/Devil's Sight is good, it isn't that good. Your allies might get annoyed at you for throwing darkness everywhere, and if you do get hit you can easily lose the spell.

I would also add, when you become a Battlemaster, that you'd be well-served looking up the 'Precision Attack' maneuver. It's totally fantastic for a sharpshooter since you can decide to use it after you see the roll of an attack.

[SchokoNougat]

I guess my main problem is the comparision from Ranger to Warlock.

At 3rd Level the Warlock looks to have the edge over the Ranger.
- Hex is better than Hunters Mark (Hex counts on each shot this means 2d6+ Disadvantage against Team spells vs 1d6 from the Rangers Hunters Mark )
So i think Warlock would not mean i fall behind in damage. It should increased it by all means.
- Devils Sight is much better than Dark Vision
- Darkness on my bow will give me constant advantage (I am mainly away from my group)
- Pact of the Chain gives me a Imp i can cast Darkness on that can kling to my enemys or simply spy out of combat


I do understand that Feats are quite strong but everything the Ranger offers could be taken with the Alert and/or Mobile Feat. I can even get 3 new Tricks for the BM and a Die from a Feat.

My vision from Marek is a Battlefield controling assassain that is hard to pin down. The BM Tricks help greatly to support my team and Precision-Shot turned many misses into hits.
I am currently Level 6 (5 Fighter/1Rogue). I took expertise in Perception and Stealth to sneak better. Without Darkvision this still bad my time will come.


Oh and thanks again for your help guys this is exactly what i wanted input and good arguments! :)

[JeffreyGator]

There are nifty things about the warlock but you need a 13 charisma to do this and that was mostly a dump stat. Ranger OTOH only requires 13 wis (in addition to the 16 dex) and so that is so much cheaper.

Gloomstalker may suit your playstyle better for the seeing in the dark.
PROs grants semi-invisibility in the dark (all the time)
CONs semi-invisibility < 2/SR seeing in magical darkness.
PROs semi-invisibility is not a potential detriment to your allies that magical darkness is

Ranger-Gloomstalker also gives you the 2nd fighting style for which I like mariner (http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/UA_Waterborne_v3.pdf)

This helps less if you are planning to MC into rogue-thief.

[ImproperJustice]

Hang in there. Fighter is a fine class and very versatile.

Battlemaster is a solid choice for an archer since so many maneuvers can happen at range.
Action Surge, Indomitable and the previously mentioned feats/ASI are all great features.

Feats can really expand your utility. Athlete can be a good choice for archers by granting a climbing speed.

Also, Fighters are good in any combat situation. In melee you should have a finesse weapon to take advantage of your Dex score, and all your maneuvers work just fine there as well.

Get a mount, be a horse archer. Take a feat like defensive duelist, mobile, or dual wielder to mox up combat styles.

Grab magic Initiate and take booming blade, green flame blade or shocking grasp. Then find familiar to have a cool owl/ hawk buddy.


The real strength of the fighter class is that it is a bit of a “blank slate” for you to add as much flavor to as you want :)

Probably my single favorite class.

[SchokoNougat]

Well as i said UA is forbidden since this is AL. Defensive Duelist would be my choice.
The idea of a horse is cool but does not really fit my liking. And i am really not to eager to go into meele. I really want to support them with combat tricks and ranged attacks.

The thing is my Magic initiate when i can take Pact of the Chain? I can have multiple buddys...even a little Dragon which is kinda cool because..well its a dragon. Pseudodragon but a dragon.


I will definitely go rogue 3(assassain) now and stats is not a problem. So warlock or ranger is both possible.

The question is, what afterwards?

[nickl_2000]

Well as i said UA is forbidden since this is AL. Defensive Duelist would be my choice.
The idea of a horse is cool but does not really fit my liking. And i am really not to eager to go into meele. I really want to support them with combat tricks and ranged attacks.

The thing is my Magic initiate when i can take Pact of the Chain? I can have multiple buddys...even a little Dragon which is kinda cool because..well its a dragon. Pseudodragon but a dragon.


I will definitely go rogue 3(assassain) now and stats is not a problem. So warlock or ranger is both possible.

The question is, what afterwards?

Given the choice between Warlock or Ranger I would choose Warlock. You can get major utility from pact of the tome, you have hex and darkness. I don't think Ranger offers as much.

[strangebloke]

I guess my main problem is the comparision from Ranger to Warlock.

At 3rd Level the Warlock looks to have the edge over the Ranger.
- Hex is better than Hunters Mark (Hex counts on each shot this means 2d6+ Disadvantage against Team spells vs 1d6 from the Rangers Hunters Mark )
So i think Warlock would not mean i fall behind in damage. It should increased it by all means.
- Devils Sight is much better than Dark Vision
- Darkness on my bow will give me constant advantage (I am mainly away from my group)
- Pact of the Chain gives me a Imp i can cast Darkness on that can kling to my enemys or simply spy out of combat


I do understand that Feats are quite strong but everything the Ranger offers could be taken with the Alert and/or Mobile Feat. I can even get 3 new Tricks for the BM and a Die from a Feat.

My vision from Marek is a Battlefield controling assassain that is hard to pin down. The BM Tricks help greatly to support my team and Precision-Shot turned many misses into hits.
I am currently Level 6 (5 Fighter/1Rogue). I took expertise in Perception and Stealth to sneak better. Without Darkvision this still bad my time will come.

Oh and thanks again for your help guys this is exactly what i wanted input and good arguments! :)

- Hex is better than Hunters Mark

They're comparable. Both deal damage on every hit. Hex gives disadvantage on an ability check (you can use this in combo with maneuvers like trip attack), Hunter's Mark gives advantage on perception/survival checks. Hunter's Mark also lacks verbal components, and thus can be cast from stealth.

- Devils Sight is much better than Dark Vision

This true. However, Umbral Sight also grants invisibility in darkness, which makes it better overall.

- Darkness on my bow will give me constant advantage (I am mainly away from my group)

Yes, however you'll only have darkness available when you don't have hex up (due to concentration), whereas if you're attacking from conventional darkness as a ranger, you can have hunter's mark active. Moreover, darkness needs an action to cast, so you're wasting your first turn setting this up.

- Pact of the Chain gives me a Imp i can cast Darkness on that can kling to my enemys or simply spy out of combat

Pact of the Chain is very good for scouting and utility. No disagreement here. This is a clear advantage over the Ranger.

Quick DPR comparison
Let me do a quick DPR comparison. Let's assume for the moment that this is a normal combat with no surprise or setup time. I'd argue that setup time favors the ranger more, since he can cast hunter's mark from stealth and since that potentially lets him find a corner of darkness from which to shoot.

The two builds I'm looking at here are vHuman fighter 6/gloomstalker 3 and vHuman fighter 5/warlock 3, each with Sharpshooter and 18 dexterity. I'm also assuming 15 AC. I'll be looking at a warlock who casts hex, and a warlock who casts darkness. I'm ignoring action surge, although using it on the first turn of combat with a gloomstalker multiclass is hilariously strong. I'm also ignoring precision attack, which once again disfavors the darkness warlock.

Turn 1:
gloomstalker:
-casts Hunter's Mark (HM) as a bonus action
-attacks for: (1d8(longbow) + 1d6(HM) + 4(DEX) + 10(SS))*2*0.4 +(1d8 + 1d6 +1d8(dread ambusher) + 4 + 10)*0.4 = 35.3 damage

DarkWarlock:
-casts darkness

HexWarlock:
-casts Hex as a bonus action
-attacks for: (1d8 + 1d6(Hex) + 4 + 10)*2*0.5 = 22 damage

Turn 2:
gloomstalker:
-attacks for: (1d8 + 1d6 + 4 + 10)*2*0.5 = 22 damage

DarkWarlock:
-attacks for: (1d8 + 1d6 + 4 + 10)*2*0.75 = 33 damage

HexWarlock:
-attacks for: (1d8 + 1d6 + 4 + 10)*2*0.5 = 22 damage

So, the HexWarlock is just strictly worse than the gloomstalker. The DarkLock gets better than the gloomstalker after the fifth round of combat, provided that the gloomstalker doesn't have any other source of advantage.

The gloomstalker has better DPR. The Darklock also gets a defensive boost from the darkness, which is a big deal against weaker mobs. It's also worth noting that the Darkness/Devil's sight trick becomes a lot worse as the game goes on due to many high-level foes (dragon's for instance) having truesight or blindsense.

Overall, the warlock will have greater out of combat utility, the ranger will be better at combat, with higher HP, higher AC (fighting style:defense) and higher DPR for most combats.

It really comes down to the campaign. If you're in a campaign with lots of non-magical darkness, gloomstalker becomes better. If you're in a campaign where you get 2-3 short rests for every long rests, warlock becomes better. If you're in a campaign with lots of the same enemy type, gloomstalker becomes better. Favored enemy:Giant is awesome in Storm King's Thunder, for example.

Basically go with whichever you think is cooler.

[SchokoNougat]

Okaaay looks like I am illiterate. It seems I totally ignored or missed that part. Hunters Mark does in fact do damage on each hit. **** I apologise whole heartily that was my bad. But it does require Verbal components does it? At least thats what I thought V stands for. I do thought about the darkness part again too and I really think you are right. It sounds better as it really will be. The concentration being the main thing.


I think taking the magic initiate feat with find familiar,minor illusion and ??? or ritual caster feat for a little companion can perfectly replace the Pact of the Chain for most parts.


Oh and even if it was just a quick comparison that helped me greatly thanks for that I think I made up my mind. Ranger(Gloom Stalker) it is for 3 Levels. Thanks for your help!


This will bring me to Fighter 5/Rogue 3/Ranger 3. I will have all the abilities I can hope for as an archer without being useless out of combat.

The remaining 9 Levels will probably go towards Fighter 11 and Rogue 6. Depending if I want 2 more expertise or a Feat/Asi I might go Fighter 12 Rogue 5

[strangebloke]

Okaaay looks like I am illiterate. It seems I totally ignored or missed that part. Hunters Mark does in fact do damage on each hit. **** I apologise whole heartily that was my bad. But it does require Verbal components does it? At least thats what I thought V stands for. I do thought about the darkness part again too and I really think you are right. It sounds better as it really will be. The concentration being the main thing.


I think taking the magic initiate feat with find familiar,minor illusion and ??? or ritual caster feat for a little companion can perfectly replace the Pact of the Chain for most parts.

No, yeah, sorry. Roll20 has an error on its site. It can't be cast from stealth. My bad. \_:smallsmile:_/

Magic initiate is a great feat. I'm partial to Mold Earth as a cantrip, personally, but Control Flames is a great trick for a gloomstalker. It can be cast from stealth, and if there's only light sources in one spot in the room (campfire) you can expand the area of your darkness a lot before the shooting starts.

[CTurbo]

Can you use the UA Revised Ranger or are you stuck with the PHB Ranger? If it has to be the PHB Ranger, I wouldn't bother.

If you can use the revised version, I'd go Hunter for Horde Breaker. It's excellent for archers.

Of course, going Fighter 11/Rogue 9 would be great. You'd have 5d6 sneak damage, Cunning Action, Uncanny Dodge, and Evasion. I actually like Scout for Archers. It's easy to keep enemies off of you.

Magic Initiate is great and Find Familiar is my top choice too.

[Specter]

Fighter/Rogue is fine. It's a smooth progression all along, and at FGT12/ROG8, you'll have 6 ASI's, 4d6 sneak attack, 4 expertised skills, Uncanny Dodge/Evasion (which will save you many times) and most of the fighter goods.

[SchokoNougat]

Okay so i thought about everything for a while and went over your suggestions and i think they are great.


@strangebloke
Control flames is a nice idea. Thats pretty cool and fits my idea of Marek perfectly. I am not so impressed by mold earth would you care to elaborate why you like it that much?


@CTurbo
As i mentioned already i am only allowed to pick published stuff since i am playing AL. But the gloomstalker is quite good because i neet the darkvision and the 3rd Level goodies are awesome.

@Specter
Holy **** the writer of some of my favourite guides replied. Am i famous now mom!? o.O Your Eldritch Knight Guide was one of the reasons i found and stayed in this forum.

Your are right with it beeing ok but i miss out on some really good things. The 3rd Level Gloomstalker Abilitys are something i will miss hard. Darkvision/Hunters Mark and so on.



So Fighter 5/Rogue3/Ranger3 is kinda set. The question i developed the last days where is the the 4-6 Level in Rogue even worth it? I could easily take another 3 Levels in Fighter. The biggest thing i would miss is Expertise for 2 skills at Lvl 6. But i am not sure if that is realy that good. Uncanny dodge uses my reaction for halve damage but i need to see the source of the damage. The ASI is not that important since fighter 12-14 would give me 2.


So this are the few things i grumbled about for the past days. As always thanks for your help :)

[Specter]

Okay so i thought about everything for a while and went over your suggestions and i think they are great.


@strangebloke
Control flames is a nice idea. Thats pretty cool and fits my idea of Marek perfectly. I am not so impressed by mold earth would you care to elaborate why you like it that much?


@CTurbo
As i mentioned already i am only allowed to pick published stuff since i am playing AL. But the gloomstalker is quite good because i neet the darkvision and the 3rd Level goodies are awesome.

@Specter
Holy **** the writer of some of my favourite guides replied. Am i famous now mom!? o.O Your Eldritch Knight Guide was one of the reasons i found and stayed in this forum.

Your are right with it beeing ok but i miss out on some really good things. The 3rd Level Gloomstalker Abilitys are something i will miss hard. Darkvision/Hunters Mark and so on.



So Fighter 5/Rogue3/Ranger3 is kinda set. The question i developed the last days where is the the 4-6 Level in Rogue even worth it? I could easily take another 3 Levels in Fighter. The biggest thing i would miss is Expertise for 2 skills at Lvl 6. But i am not sure if that is realy that good. Uncanny dodge uses my reaction for halve damage but i need to see the source of the damage. The ASI is not that important since fighter 12-14 would give me 2.


So this are the few things i grumbled about for the past days. As always thanks for your help :)

Hey, thanks!

The main deal about Ranger is when to take the first level. If you're not in the wilderness, it's likely you'll get zero benefits from it, so when in doubt go Rogue first. If you do take that route, I'd suggest Fighter 11/Rogue 5/Ranger 4. You'll miss on one ASI but Uncanny Dodge is worth it. It's a free, always-on reaction that will save you time and time again.

[strangebloke]

@strangebloke
Control flames is a nice idea. Thats pretty cool and fits my idea of Marek perfectly. I am not so impressed by mold earth would you care to elaborate why you like it that much?

Mold Earth is cool for two reasons:

1. Exploration: If your party sepnds a lot of time tromping through the desert/jungle/whatever, it's really cool to be able to make your own cave for the night. In and urban campaign, you can build secret underground warrens kobold-style. In a dungeon, you can sometimes use it to make a smooth wall rough enough to climb, or to tunnel under a wall. Some of this depends on DM fiat, but it's worth looking into.

2. Tactics: In the rare event that you're on the defensive, and not the offensive, you can set up cover for yourself in the form of a foxhole. You can funnel the enemy using large mounds of dirt. You can make a low dirt wall for your melee guys to take cover behind. You can make patches of difficult terrain in those chokepoints such that the enemy has to waste a lot of movement to get into melee with you.

It's not the best cantrip in the game or anything, I just think that it's fun.