Epic Spells

[MaxMAnAtArms]

I know Epic spells are literally tons of work and math and everything else under the sun and it falls into Ask the DM territory instantly since the book says it but i was wanting to bounce an idea off the general group for feed back.

Im a dual caster build high 30s and i have epic spell casting feat.

I have read about the seeds (still getting my head around it)

I specialize in summoning (conjur) and I am evil. We are in a God hunting game. And yes the whole (own dimension and get sent by a nightmare etc etc) has been told to me and explained.

I want to make a spell to summon a creature or "create/birth" one that would be able to not go toe to toe with a god but be able to actually hurt them either by passing the damage. Untyped is pretty much the only real winner there. Or being a object/thing that makes the gods power less strong. I.e kill the followers and wittle down his forces to try and drop there power levels.


Or making a spell that ignores Sr/DR and having it Void based (untyped)

DM is pretty much a stickler for the rules but for our levels as well as what were doing if i can make it sense able/ plausible he is willing to accept things.

Any thoughts?

[ColorBlindNinja]

You can probably use Origins of the Species (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/originOfSpeciesAchaierai.htm) to make a monster of your own, and modify the spell as needed.

To bypass DR, I'd recommend Wraithstrike; it makes your melee attacks touch attacks, which cut right through DR.

How much mitigation are you planning/allowed to use, BTW?

[Doctor Awkward]

To bypass DR, I'd recommend Wraithstrike; it makes your melee attacks touch attacks, which cut right through DR.

Woah.Who?Wha?Why?

[Arcanist]

To bypass DR, I'd recommend Wraithstrike; it makes your melee attacks touch attacks, which cut right through DR.

I checked the DMG, I checked the SRD, I checked the spell Wraithstrike, I checked the Rule Compendium. I cannot find out where you're getting that touch attacks ignore damage reduction, but if you find a source please share.

OT: The easiest way to use a a 3rd party to kill a God, is to make that 3rd party love that God to such an extreme that casting Love's Pain (BoVD, page 98-99) on them actually harms that particular God. If you have multiple such creatures that love that God, just apply Chain Spell (CArc, page 76) to those targets and save yourself a usage of Restoration between your castings.

[Remuko]

I presume ColorBlindNinja was talking about the same stuff discussed in this thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?556511-am-i-reading-this-right

There's people arguing both sides.

[One Step Two]

For The creature conjuration route:

Use a spell similar to Origin of species to create a terrifying monster, but give it an Su Power that whenever it attacks a target, or perhaps radiates an aura, it deals damage similar to the Love's Pain spell from BoVD which targets "Anyone who worships the victim". Every attack landed, or turn spent near the monster forces every single worshiper of the targeted Deity to take 10d6 Damage.

[Remuko]

For The creature conjuration route:

Use a spell similar to Origin of species to create a terrifying monster, but give it an Su Power that whenever it attacks a target, or perhaps radiates an aura, it deals damage similar to the Love's Pain spell from BoVD which targets "Anyone who worships the victim". Every attack landed, or turn spent near the monster forces every single worshiper of the targeted Deity to take 10d6 Damage.

Even if this only dealt 1 damage (no save), it would murder most of the gods worshipers in a few turns. 10d6 sounds insane. That would kill like 90% of their worshipers in one turn.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Woah.Who?Wha?Why?

Wraithstrike makes all your melee attacks touch attacks.


Damage reduction does not negate touch attacks

[hamishspence]

The countertheory is that damage reduction does negate slashing, piercing, or bludgeoning damage (except where specified) and melee touch attack damage from a weapon is still one or more of these.


Damage reduction doesn't negate touch attacks. It still negates damage of the types it negates. What this means, however, is that your DR doesn't mean that you ignore the paralyzing touch of a ghoul or lich, even if you do ignore the damage from the attack. I think wraithstrike still fails to allow an inappropriate weapon to bypass DR, because it hasn't negated the touch attack...just the weapon damage.


Now, "rider effects" cannot be negated- but the damage itself, maybe can.

[Doctor Awkward]

Wraithstrike makes all your melee attacks touch attacks.

Yeah I'm inclined to agree with Segev and hamishpence.

Assuming that Wraithstrike makes melee attacks bypass DR is an incredibly literal reading of the SRD.

Touch attacks are a type of attack that don't actually deal damage. Having the damage of your touch attack negated doesn't have anything to do with whether or not the touch attack itself succeeded.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Assuming that Wraithstrike makes melee attacks bypass DR is an incredibly literal reading of the SRD.

I always try to go with the most straightforward interpetation of the text.


Touch attacks are a type of attack that don't actually deal damage.

Except in the case of Wraithstrike, they do deal damage.

[Covenant12]

Back to the OP, as he mentioned, any answer with fall under "Ask the DM." territory.

That said you likely need a custom seed to get what you want. Destroy seed is typeless damage, but allows SR and a save.

As a conjuration specialist, basing a seed on the Orb of Force (Spell Compendium) could work. Ranged touch attack, force damage, SR NO, Save NO. In the high 30's of player level fighting gods one just may make the effort to be immune to force. Very little is immune to force to begin with, but level 9 or lower spells could definitely be researched for it.

Typeless damage the psionic/kineticist power Tornado Blast has appeal. Typeless aoe damage, SR No, but reflex half. Could be modified to no save but single target ranged touch attack, then just buff the damage.

Full casters in high 30's require massive amounts of house rules to function at all. Bit envious, but I think we need more detail to get an accurate answer.

[Doctor Awkward]

I always try to go with the most straightforward interpetation of the text.



Except in the case of Wraithstrike, they do deal damage.

No, Touch Attacks never deal damage.

A touch attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#touchAttacks) is a special type of attack roll that ignores armor, natural armor, and shield bonuses to AC.

A damage roll (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#damage) is the result of a successful attack roll.

In order for your interpretation to be correct, you would have to find text stating that the damage roll of a touch attack is the type of rider effect that accompanies an attack which damage reduction cannot negate.

Or the text would have to read, "Damage reduction cannot negate the results of a touch attack,"

[ColorBlindNinja]

No, Touch Attacks never deal damage.

A touch attack (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#touchAttacks) is a special type of attack roll that ignores armor, natural armor, and shield bonuses to AC.

A damage roll (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/combatStatistics.htm#damage) is the result of a successful attack roll.

In order for your interpretation to be correct, you would have to find text stating that the damage roll of a touch attack is the type of rider effect that accompanies an attack which damage reduction cannot negate.

Or the text would have to read, "Damage reduction cannot negate the results of a touch attack,"

I don't care to argue any further on the matter.

[King of Nowhere]

You can probably use Origins of the Species (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/originOfSpeciesAchaierai.htm) to make a monster of your own, and modify the spell as needed.


Sorry to go on a tangent, but that spell burns 10k XP, 100 days, and requires the assistance of 20 more high level wizards during all that time... just to create a single CR 5 creature? I don't get it.

[Necroticplague]

Touch attacks are a type of attack that don't actually deal damage.

lolwut?
Some (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghost.htm) Incorporeal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wraith.htm) Friends (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shadow.htm) would like to have words with you. As well as Some (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shockingGrasp.htm) Spellcasting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/chillTouch.htm) Ones (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/vampiricTouch.htm).

Touch attacks can definitely deal damage. Damage that is not negated by DR.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Sorry to go on a tangent, but that spell burns 10k XP, 100 days, and requires the assistance of 20 more high level wizards during all that time... just to create a single CR 5 creature? I don't get it.

That's why you modify it. First of all, add in either the Energy Seed or the Heal Seed to make it instantaneous, so it can't be dispelled.

As for mitigation, the easiest way is to get a ton of minions to sacrifice spell slots, and perhaps increasing the casting time.

[Doctor Awkward]

lolwut?
Some (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghost.htm) Incorporeal (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wraith.htm) Friends (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/shadow.htm) would like to have words with you. As well as Some (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/shockingGrasp.htm) Spellcasting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/chillTouch.htm) Ones (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/vampiricTouch.htm).

Touch attacks can definitely deal damage. Damage that is not negated by DR.

What it actually says:

A ghost that hits a living target with its incorporeal touch attack drains 1d4 points from any one ability score

What it would need to say for you to be correct:

A ghost's touch attack drains 1d4 damage from any one ability score.

In a literal reading of the rules, no attack roll ever deals damage. A damage roll is the result of a successful attack roll. If attack rolls could deal damage there would, mechanically, be no difference between adding damage reduction dto armor class.

And spells that deal energy damage cannot be negated anyway, as Damage Reduction explicitly states.


Why do so many folks who read the rules in the most rules-lawyered literal way possible only read as far as something that supports their conclusion?

[Necroticplague]

What it actually says:


What it would need to say for you to be correct:
Fair enough point for the ghost, my memory on its abilities was fuzzy, thought they had one that just dealt straight hit point damage.

Regardless, what about for the Wraith, whose incorporeal touch attack does both normal damage and CON drain? It's position in the statblock makes it very clear that it's a property of the incorporeal touch, and not an ability of the Wraith.


And spells that deal energy damage cannot be negated anyway, as Damage Reduction explicitly states. I'm aware, I was merely responding to the patently false 'touch attacks don't deal damage'.

[One Step Two]

Even if this only dealt 1 damage (no save), it would murder most of the gods worshipers in a few turns. 10d6 sounds insane. That would kill like 90% of their worshipers in one turn.

Oh most definitely! Love's Pain is frankly insane, given that once you're able to hit the target with it, all the people they love take 1d6 per 2 CL Damage, no save, no SR, no matter the distance. And the craziest part? It's a 3rd levels spell. The only hard part of casting it is the 1d6 Int Damage. But that's why you get someone to cast sheltered Vitality on you beforehand.

The reason why we bind the spell to a creature that uses that power that as an Su ability is to negate the corruption cost is the for the following reasons:

1: It keeps to the theme of the Evil Conjurer who summons creatures to do his bidding
2: Because it can be cast as a ritual, adding time and other casters who fuel the ritual mitigate the high Epic spell DCs

Admittedly, the given example spell to summon an Acherai is a little lame, but it's a base on which to grow your own monster.

[ColorBlindNinja]

If you're evil, you could cast Apocalypse From the Sky.

[Doctor Awkward]

Regardless, what about for the Wraith, whose incorporeal touch attack does both normal damage and CON drain? It's position in the statblock makes it very clear that it's a property of the incorporeal touch, and not an ability of the Wraith.

For one thing, the accompanying text block for Wraith disagrees with that assessment, and states that a creature struck by a wraith's incorporeal touch attack "must succeed on a DC 14 Fortitude save or take 1d6 points of Constitution drain. The save DC is Charisma-based. On each such successful attack, the wraith gains 5 temporary hit points."

It is tagged as a supernatural ability and is clearly a special quality of the wraith.

Second, damage reduction already tells you how to you should handle a wraith. Creatures with damage reduction can ignore damage from most weapon and natural attacks. This is certainly a natural attack. It goes on to say that the individual damage reduction entry "indicates the amount of damage ignored (usually 5 to 15 points) and the type of weapon that negates the ability."

As the touch attack does not have a listed damage type, the 1d4 does not overcome it is not overcame any damage reduction unless that damage reduction specifies that it is overcome by incorporeal touch attacks.

While the list of special effects that accompany an attack does not specify ability drain one way or another, it does suggest that most effects which work on contact are not negated. Thus the Constitution drain, which requires only that the target be struck successfully by a touch attack (as opposed to damaged by a touch attack), would function normally.

[One Step Two]

If you're evil, you could cast Apocalypse From the Sky.

This could work! Pick the target Deity's high holy day, or sponsor a church pilgrimage for all worshipers of said Deity so that a large chunk of them are all in one place, then just nuke from orbit. Heck, you don't even need to resort to Apocalypse from the Sky, you can use Control Winds and just Tornado them into the upper atmosphere.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Heck, you don't even need to resort to Apocalypse from the Sky, you can use Control Winds and just Tornado them into the upper atmosphere.

True, but Apocalypse From the Sky does have a certain cool factor to it. Plus, it has a 10 mile per spell level radius.

[Necroticplague]

For one thing, the accompanying text block for Wraith disagrees with that assessment, and states that a creature struck by a wraith's incorporeal touch attack "must succeed on a DC 14 Fortitude save or take 1d6 points of Constitution drain. The save DC is Charisma-based. On each such successful attack, the wraith gains 5 temporary hit points."

It is tagged as a supernatural ability and is clearly a special quality of the wraith.
Sorry for the confusion, I was just referring to the 1d4 damage. That's not given a similar treatment to the drain.

[MaxMAnAtArms]

Back to the OP, as he mentioned, any answer with fall under "Ask the DM." territory.

That said you likely need a custom seed to get what you want. Destroy seed is typeless damage, but allows SR and a save.

As a conjuration specialist, basing a seed on the Orb of Force (Spell Compendium) could work. Ranged touch attack, force damage, SR NO, Save NO. In the high 30's of player level fighting gods one just may make the effort to be immune to force. Very little is immune to force to begin with, but level 9 or lower spells could definitely be researched for it.

Typeless damage the psionic/kineticist power Tornado Blast has appeal. Typeless aoe damage, SR No, but reflex half. Could be modified to no save but single target ranged touch attack, then just buff the damage.

Full casters in high 30's require massive amounts of house rules to function at all. Bit envious, but I think we need more detail to get an accurate answer.

TBH the Dm is letting us get away with "your high 30s you must of had time to create/make/do said things for spells" Being undead. I have even more time then most would. Id swap tbh lol. anything past 20 im all derp. As of this moment im having to redo it a 4th? i think time since i misread something and one of the classes is invalid for my build. :( But moving on. I would love to do an orb. Or a Multi orb spell. hell id be willing to say hey this spell X (epic spell I make) takes all my epic spell casting slots just to make it go bang.

Hey could I do that? make an epic spell that burns all "owned" epic spell slots to be cast?