Rainbow Servant entry at level 2?

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Is it possible to enter Rainbow Servant at level 2 by being human, taking a level in say Beguiler and then taking 2 flaws to get Versatile Spellcaster, Heighten Spell, Earth Sense (prerequisite) and Earth Spell.
That way you can cast level 3 spells at level 1, and you have 4 ranks in Knowledge (arcana). Then at level 2 you take a level of Rainbow Servant, and go on from there.

[schreier]

I believe generally that is accepted as a level 2 entrance. I think Sanctum spell also works with Heighten and Versatile spellcaster for other races with 2 feats.

[GrayDeath]

Theoretically possible (depends on the Interpretation of "Level Spells as "Spells that occupy a slot of said Level" instead of Spells of that Level", a typical RAW Argument often seen).

No DM I know would ever allow it though. ;)

[Mato]

Is it possible to enter Rainbow Servant at level 2 by being human,Using heighten spell and versatile spellcaster? No.

It goes back to what does it mean to cast 2nd level spells? A lot of GitP people think it means have have some way of producing a 2nd level effect, such as a heightened magic missile, but that's inaccurate. Heighten only affects calculations (see heighten spell), there is no such thing as a second level spell called "heightened magic missile" (see faq/rules of the game), and such a concept allows for people using scrolls to cast second level spells to enter classes which explains why that contextually WotC has opposed this in several snippets of text.

One of the most relevant comes from the globally overrides all preexisting text supplement known as the RC.

STARTING TO CAST
First you must choose which spell to cast. If you prepare spells, you select from among spells prepared earlier in the day and not yet cast. If you cast spells spontaneously, you can select any spell you know, provided you’re capable of casting spells of that level or higher and you have an appropriate spell slot available. If a spell has multiple versions, you choose which version to use when you cast it. You don’t have to prepare or know a specific version of the spell.Your character cannot have the option to even choose to cast a 2nd level spell until they have the appropriate spell slot available. Their inability to even select that option makes it impossible to say the have the ability to cast second level spells.

If this sounds confusing to you then I apologize for any difficulty you may have in recognizing that the ability to cast a heightened 1st level spell whose level is calculated out to be 2 for the purposes of save DCs and such is not the same thing as the ability to cast a 2nd level spell along with my ability to explain it to you. Perhaps the analogy that a cheese burger from McDonalds is not a Whopper from Burger may help? Maybe one about how your grandmother called your X-Box a "Nintendo"? You have to drop the confirmation bais and stop looking for ways they appear the same, and then accept that they have reasons they are different.

Now, if you want early entry. How does your DM feel about level adjustment or minor artifacts?

[Crake]

Using heighten spell and versatile spellcaster? No.

It goes back to what does it mean to cast 2nd level spells? A lot of GitP people think it means have have some way of producing a 2nd level effect, such as a heightened magic missile, but that's inaccurate. Heighten only affects calculations (see heighten spell), there is no such thing as a second level spell called "heightened magic missile" (see faq/rules of the game), and such a concept allows for people using scrolls to cast second level spells to enter classes which explains why that contextually WotC has opposed this in several snippets of text.

One of the most relevant comes from the globally overrides all preexisting text supplement known as the RC.
Your character cannot have the option to even choose to cast a 2nd level spell until they have the appropriate spell slot available. Their inability to even select that option makes it impossible to say the have the ability to cast second level spells.

If this sounds confusing to you then I apologize for any difficulty you may have in recognizing that the ability to cast a heightened 1st level spell whose level is calculated out to be 2 for the purposes of save DCs and such is not the same thing as the ability to cast a 2nd level spell along with my ability to explain it to you. Perhaps the analogy that a cheese burger from McDonalds is not a Whopper from Burger may help? Maybe one about how your grandmother called your X-Box a "Nintendo"? You have to drop the confirmation bais and stop looking for ways they appear the same, and then accept that they have reasons they are different.

Now, if you want early entry. How does your DM feel about level adjustment or minor artifacts?

I think you need to read heighten spell again. There is not a single mention of it being limited to calculations:


Benefit
A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.

Now, if you're going to try and argue that "spell level" and "effective spell level" are different, sure, but don't go claiming you have The One True RAW™

[ben-zayb]

If you play with Heroes of Horror version of taint, you can just have moderate depravity, then grab the Eldritch Corruption with your metamagic feat of choice. Boom, 3rd level spells with just a single feat (2 if you think metamagic feat at level 1 is a feat tax)

[Nifft]

Versatile Spellcaster is awesome, but it's not going to do what you want in this case, because Versatile Spellcaster doesn't create a spell slot.

A 1st level Beguiler could use Versatile Spellcaster in exactly one way: to expend two level 0 spell slots and cast a level 1 spell.

Earth Spell explicitly requires that the spell be cast from a higher-level slot, not from any other method (e.g. Versatile Spellcaster, which casts from two lower-level slots instead of one higher-level slot). Earth Spell isn't compatible with Versatile Spellcaster.

Heighten Spell might not be compatible with Versatile Spellcaster, either, since Versatile Spellcaster allows you to "cast a spell you know", and heightened fireball isn't a spell you know -- the spell would just be fireball. I'm not totally confident about this one, though, since some classes do allow you to add metamagic versions of spells as spells known. (A Spirit Shaman is even more flexible, since she applies metamagic feats during spell-prep, so a Spirit Shaman actually could have heightened fireball as a spell known.)


Sanctum Spell also fails to create a slot, so it does nothing to help you here either.

[Mato]

I think you need to readMy post again about how people can confuse one thing with another? Yes you should. Because there really is no spell in the game called "heightened magic missile" so I'm not sure how you can claim it's level entry says '2'.

But I realize this is a multilingual forum so let me try to simplify this for you.

Effective (adj)
1. successful in producing a desired or intended result.
2. fulfilling a specified function in fact, though not formally acknowledged as such.
And that's why when WotC wrote heighten spell they made it say "effective level" instead of "level".


and heightened fireball isn't a spell you know -- the spell would just be fireball. I'm not totally confident about this one, though, since some classes do allow you to add metamagic versions of spells as spells known. (A Spirit Shaman is even more flexible, since she applies metamagic feats during spell-prep, so a Spirit Shaman actually could have heightened fireball as a spell known.)You are right on the spell would just be fireball but the shame doesn't actually learn a "heightened fireball", rather.

If a spirit shaman knows any metamagic feats, she applies them to her spells when she retrieves her spells for the day. For example, a spirit shaman might choose to retrieve an empowered flame strike by using a 6th-level spell retrieved slot. Any time she uses flame strike during the ensuing day, she must use a 6th-level spell slot to cast it, and it is always empowered.The spell is still just flame strike, but for the rest of the day she has to use a 6th level slot and it's always empowered.

It gets a little confusing a moment later when the text uses the word "spell" when it says she can retrieve both versions of flame strike and cast either of them, but you can't single out that text as your main evidence when the text also admits there isn't such a thing as "empowered flame strike" and never allows the shamen to learn it either.

This type of metamagic question has been asked enough there is an official entry on it.

Can I apply the Innate Spell feat to a spell improved by another metamagic feat?
No. Innate Spell applies only to actual spells, not to spells affected by metamagic feats and the like. Just because you’re capable of applying, say, the Empower Spell feat to a fireball spell, that doesn’t make “empowered fireball” a spell. The spell is still “fireball” and thus Innate Spell applies only to the normal version of that spell.

[Crake]

Versatile Spellcaster is awesome, but it's not going to do what you want in this case, because Versatile Spellcaster doesn't create a spell slot.

A 1st level Beguiler could use Versatile Spellcaster in exactly one way: to expend two level 0 spell slots and cast a level 1 spell.

Earth Spell explicitly requires that the spell be cast from a higher-level slot, not from any other method (e.g. Versatile Spellcaster, which casts from two lower-level slots instead of one higher-level slot). Earth Spell isn't compatible with Versatile Spellcaster.

Heighten Spell might not be compatible with Versatile Spellcaster, either, since Versatile Spellcaster allows you to "cast a spell you know", and heightened fireball isn't a spell you know -- the spell would just be fireball. I'm not totally confident about this one, though, since some classes do allow you to add metamagic versions of spells as spells known. (A Spirit Shaman is even more flexible, since she applies metamagic feats during spell-prep, so a Spirit Shaman actually could have heightened fireball as a spell known.)


Sanctum Spell also fails to create a slot, so it does nothing to help you here either.


My post again about how people can confuse one thing with another? Yes you should. Because there really is no spell in the game called "heightened magic missile" so I'm not sure how you can claim it's level entry says '2'.

But I realize this is a multilingual forum so let me try to simplify this for you.

And that's why when WotC wrote heighten spell they made it say "effective level" instead of "level".

You are right on the spell would just be fireball but the shame doesn't actually learn a "heightened fireball", rather.
The spell is still just flame strike, but for the rest of the day she has to use a 6th level slot and it's always empowered.

It gets a little confusing a moment later when the text uses the word "spell" when it says she can retrieve both versions of flame strike and cast either of them, but you can't single out that text as your main evidence when the text also admits there isn't such a thing as "empowered flame strike" and never allows the shamen to learn it either.

This type of metamagic question has been asked enough there is an official entry on it.

This would be all well and good if the requirement was to know a 3rd level spell. The requirement isn't to that. It's the ability to cast a third level spell. And while heightened magic missle may not be a spell you know, it is a 2nd/3rd/4th etc level spell that you can cast. As would be a sanctum magic missile, or a snowcasted magic missile etc.

[Nifft]

This would be all well and good if the requirement was to know a 3rd level spell. The requirement isn't to that. It's the ability to cast a third level spell. And while heightened magic missle may not be a spell you know, it is a 2nd/3rd/4th etc level spell that you can cast. Except you can't, as detailed above.


As would be a sanctum magic missile, or a snowcasted magic missile etc. Sanctum Spell is a mess and really shouldn't be used for anything practical.

If this is just theory-crafting, then it does whatever you want, because it's poorly specified.

[Crake]

Except you can't, as detailed above.

Sanctum Spell is a mess and really shouldn't be used for anything practical.

If this is just theory-crafting, then it does whatever you want, because it's poorly specified.

Except you can, because when you cast a heightened/sanctum/snowcasting magic missile it is an Xth level spell. You don't know it, but it's still the same as casting a higher level spell.

And sanctum spell isn't poorly specified at all. When you cast the spell outside your sanctum, it's treated as one spell level lower, when cast inside your sanctum it's treated as 1 level higher, there's nothing more to it. If you have sanctum spell, and have a sanctum, you're able to cast spells one level higher than you normally otherwise would be able to. Same goes for snowcasting.

[Falontani]

You can create a potion of up to third level, a wand of up to fourth level. Can I create a potion of Maximized Cure Serious Wounds? Cure Serious Wounds is a third level spell and thus is acceptable for a potion. A maximized Cure serious Wounds (iirc) is a 7th level spell for pricing, but should still be able to follow all the normal rules for creating a potion if it is a third level spell. If it is not a third level spell and can not be created (because its a 7th level spell due to metamagic) then the same argument can be used to allow someone that only has access to Cure Serious Wounds, but can cast a Maximized version at 7th level is able to cast 7th level spells. The rules compendium says nothing about THIS instance.

[Karl Aegis]

Heighten Spell Burning Hands is a second level spell, but the rules don't acknowledge it as a second level spell. That's the definition of effective.

Unless your couatls made their temple in a hobo jungle in the middle of town, your level 1 character isn't going to find their temple. Even then, making it through a bunch of hobos is not something you should take lightly.

[RoboEmperor]

Still surprises me no matter how many times versatile spellcaster rears its ugly head for early entry, there is no shortage of the same people arguing it. XD


Heighten Spell might not be compatible with Versatile Spellcaster, either, since Versatile Spellcaster allows you to "cast a spell you know", and heightened fireball isn't a spell you know -- the spell would just be fireball. I'm not totally confident about this one, though, since some classes do allow you to add metamagic versions of spells as spells known. (A Spirit Shaman is even more flexible, since she applies metamagic feats during spell-prep, so a Spirit Shaman actually could have heightened fireball as a spell known.)

FAQ says you can use versatile spellcaster to cast metamagic. Official example was two 1st level spell slots for an extended shield or something. And yes, some people are gonna say "FAQ ISN'T RAW".

[Deadline]

You can create a potion of up to third level, a wand of up to fourth level. Can I create a potion of Maximized Cure Serious Wounds? Cure Serious Wounds is a third level spell and thus is acceptable for a potion. A maximized Cure serious Wounds (iirc) is a 7th level spell for pricing, but should still be able to follow all the normal rules for creating a potion if it is a third level spell. If it is not a third level spell and can not be created (because its a 7th level spell due to metamagic) then the same argument can be used to allow someone that only has access to Cure Serious Wounds, but can cast a Maximized version at 7th level is able to cast 7th level spells. The rules compendium says nothing about THIS instance.

There is a Faerunian prestige class, Master Alchemist, that lets you brew potions beyond 3rd level. :smallwink:

[Mato]

And sanctum spell isn't poorly specified at all.Oh I agree, but your post was.

If you have sanctum spell, and have a sanctum, then the sanctum spell's effective spell level is one higher than normal.There, that claim actually tries to say the same thing the metamagic does instead of incorrectly claiming something else.


Still surprises me no matter how many times versatile spellcaster rears its ugly head for early entry, there is no shortage of the same people arguing it. XDIt's GitP, what did you expect? I always walk into every thread thinking everyone involved has a negative modifier to wisdom checks and no ranks in knowledge(rules) and I fully expect ability damage/drain on my own failed will saves. I just wish the DCs weren't so high :(

[Nifft]

Except you can, because when you cast a heightened/sanctum/snowcasting magic missile it is an Xth level spell. You don't know it, but it's still the same as casting a higher level spell. I see no trace of Versatile Spellcaster in your newest attempt.

Are you conceding the point that Versatile Spellcaster does not work to allow early entry?



And sanctum spell isn't poorly specified at all. When you cast the spell outside your sanctum, it's treated as one spell level lower, when cast inside your sanctum it's treated as 1 level higher, there's nothing more to it.

List out exactly what "treated as" means, and also what is excluded by "treated as".

[death390]

technically possible wit 3 feats: the ONLY MANDATORY ONE is Heighten spell.


there are multiple things that can be used to do the 3rd level spell trick: Versatile spellcaster, Sanctum spell , Earth spell (+ earth sense but that makes 4 feats), Easy Metamagic (Heighten), Practical Metamagic (Heighten).

So here are a couple possibilities. (* marked can be done @ lvl 1 with 3 feats)

Versatile spellcaster (2 lvl 1s to make a 2nd) + Heightened 0/1st lvl spell + Earth/Sanctum* spell
Versatile spellcaster (2 lvl 1s to make a 2nd) + Heightened 0/1st lvl spell + Easy*/Practical Metamagic (Heighten)
Heighten spell 0lvl in a 1st lvl slot + Easy/Practical Metamagic (Heighten) + Earth/Sanctum* Spell
Heighten spell 0lvl in a 1st lvl slot + Earth Spell + Sanctum Spell
Heighten spell 0lvl in a 1st lvl slot + Easy Metamagic (Heighten) + easy*/Practical Metamagic (Easy Metamagic (Heighten))

Mind you that Practical has 2 restrictions that is not available at 1st level merely added due to its effect (8 ranks spellcraft, able to spont. cast 3rd lvl spells), while easy metamagic only requires another metamagic (heighten in this case). as stated earlier any use of earth spell makes it 4

Easy/ Practical Metamagic and Earth/Sanctum Spell are grouped due to the fact that each pair does the same thing. Easy/ Practical each reduce the cost by 1 and Sanctum/Earth spell each increase the level by 1. i have a personal prefference for Versatile as there is a debate that since it allows you to cast a higher level spell than normal and beguilers know all spells that gaining access allows you to cast spells you normally don't have access to like invisibility @ lvl 1 for 2 1sts.

also due to the fact that Easy Metamagic is a Metamagic itis a valid target for Easy/ Practical Metamagic itself, which also means that Easy Metamagic chaining is possible but beware thrown books if you do too many.

The Metamagic reduces (Easy/Practical) work because while it cannot reduce the cost below 1 it does reduce it TO 1. so a +2 Heightened spell cost +1 Spell level, and if both are applied a +3 spell costs +1. thus taking a 0 lvl spell putting it in a 1st level slot cost 1 but is 0+3 if easy/easy or easy/practical are used. similarly putting a 1st into a 2nd via versatile with -1 cost = lvl 3 from 2nd level slot. when it comes to reducers vs boosters i prefer the reducers due to the fact that the boosters have requirements that cannot always be met (touching ground/ in sanctum).

[heavyfuel]

A 2nd level Beguiler can't cast 2nd level spells because he doesn't have 4 caster levels, the necessary quantity of caster levels required for Beguilers to cast 2nd level spells.

This rule never made it into the SRD, but it's in the Player's Handbook on pg 171.


You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level. For example, at 10th level, Mialee can cast a fireball to a range of 800 feet for 10d6 points of damage. If she wishes, she can cast a fireball that deals less damage by casting the spell at a lower caster level, but she must reduce the range according to the selected caster level, and she can’t cast fireball with a caster level lower than 5th (the minimum level required for a wizard to cast fireball).

The minimum level required for a Beguiler to cast Heighten whatever-lv1-spell is 4. The minimum required for a 3rd level spell is lv 6.

[ben-zayb]

The minimum level required for a Beguiler to cast Heighten whatever-lv1-spell is 4. The minimum required for a 3rd level spell is lv 6.Citation needed.

I read Fireball requires CL5, nothing more.

[Nifft]

Citation needed.

I read Fireball requires CL5, nothing more.

I think the citation was posted above.

The chain of logic seems to be:

- Heighten makes a spell 2nd level.
- To cast any 2nd level spell, you must be 4th level.
- Therefore, to Heighten a spell to 2nd level, you must be 4th level.


I'm not sure it's correct, but it's coherent and logical AFAICT.

[RoboEmperor]

Caster level debate is the same as all other parts of this debate.

"Specific Trumps General"

Versatile spellcaster is the specific that lets you ignore all caster level, ability score, and class level restrictions. That's the argument anyhow.

[Nifft]

Versatile spellcaster is the specific that lets you ignore all caster level, ability score, and class level restrictions. That's the argument anyhow.

Show the text which you think specifies that you're allowed to ignore those rules.

[RoboEmperor]

Show the text which you think specifies that you're allowed to ignore those rules.

I don't know where "specific trumps general" is located, someone else needs to help you with that.

In any case, versatile spellcaster says you "can" cast the spell if you have two lower level spell slots, so this specific sentence trumps all general rules like the "-" argument, minimum CL argument, etc. etc.

Some people say no, it does not, and whatever. That's the argument anyhow.

[heavyfuel]

Citation needed.

I read Fireball requires CL5, nothing more.

Someone didn't read the entire quote.


the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question

This applies to all spells. Fireball is only the example given.

Or what, you're gonna argue that this only applies to Fireballs cast by Wizards because the PHB didn't explicitly mention every single spell by every single spellcasting class?

[Nifft]

I don't know where "specific trumps general" is located, someone else needs to help you with that. Are you trying to misunderstand? That wasn't the challenge at all.


In any case, versatile spellcaster says you "can" cast the spell if you have two lower level spell slots, so this specific sentence trumps all general rules like the "-" argument, minimum CL argument, etc. etc. So it doesn't actually specify what you claim.

It looks like nothing in Versatile Spellcaster permits you to ignore the general rules which you need ignored. Specific exceptions do indeed trump general rules, but the absence of specific text doesn't trump anything.

[ben-zayb]

This applies to all spells. Fireball is only the example given.

Or what, you're gonna argue that this only applies to Fireballs cast by Wizards because the PHB didn't explicitly mention every single spell by every single spellcasting class?

Yep, it's not that hard to realize my point, right?

Again. Citation needed.

[Aharon]

My post again about how people can confuse one thing with another? Yes you should. Because there really is no spell in the game called "heightened magic missile" so I'm not sure how you can claim it's level entry says '2'.

But I realize this is a multilingual forum so let me try to simplify this for you.

And that's why when WotC wrote heighten spell they made it say "effective level" instead of "level".

You are right on the spell would just be fireball but the shame doesn't actually learn a "heightened fireball", rather.
The spell is still just flame strike, but for the rest of the day she has to use a 6th level slot and it's always empowered.

It gets a little confusing a moment later when the text uses the word "spell" when it says she can retrieve both versions of flame strike and cast either of them, but you can't single out that text as your main evidence when the text also admits there isn't such a thing as "empowered flame strike" and never allows the shamen to learn it either.

This type of metamagic question has been asked enough there is an official entry on it.

Just to understand where you're coming from: As you have a very RAW reading, would you also argue that, since metamagic doesn't change the level of spells, you can put extremely metamagic'd spells into items?


Magic Items and Metamagic Spells
With the right item creation feat, you can store a metamagic version of a spell in a scroll, potion, or wand. Level limits for potions and wands apply to the spell’s higher spell level (after the application of the metamagic feat). A character doesn’t need the metamagic feat to activate an item storing a metamagic version of a spell.

-> by your logic, the bolded part doesn't do anything, since there is no higher spell level after the application of a metamagic feat, only a higher effective spell level for purposes of using the spell with a spell slot?

[death390]

That stupid Caster Level Debate is so obnoxious, the question arises with those "what about the fast progression classes?" ur-pries, beholder mage, ect. do they not get their spells for a long ass time? if the beholder mage can't cast fireball until CL 4 then why does he get it @ his 2nd level? what about spells with different levels for different caster?

there is nothing explicit about how that works because it is an unfinished bit of rules that was not finished.

hell spellcaster is only defined as: "spellcaster: A character capable of casting spells." on page 313 of PHB 3.5 but people still argue that you can't use prestige classes to progress another prestige classes spellcasting or that you can" (i'm on the can side of the fence).

i mean hell look at eldritch Theurge and Mystic Theurge for a second "Spellcasting: At each level, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class (but not an invocation-using class) to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level. "

"Spells per Day: When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously."

they each reference the name of the ability "spellcasting" and "spells per day" why shouldn't these be able to stack? all they require is that "spellcasting class" be arcane for eldrith theurge and one of each for mystic theurge. eldritch theurge is a "arcane spellcasting class" and an "Invocation-using class" while Mystic theurge is a "arcane spellcasting class" and "divine spellcasting class".

there are a lot of things that have not nor will ever be cleared up with 3.5 in all cases talk with your DM about it!

[Karl Aegis]

Just to understand where you're coming from: As you have a very RAW reading, would you also argue that, since metamagic doesn't change the level of spells, you can put extremely metamagic'd spells into items?



-> by your logic, the bolded part doesn't do anything, since there is no higher spell level after the application of a metamagic feat, only a higher effective spell level for purposes of using the spell with a spell slot?

What are you asking here? It looks like you're trying to bring item creation into a thread about Rainbow Servant. Rainbow Servant is irrelevant to item creation. Drinking a potion is also not casting a spell. If you suddenly find yourself able to drink a potion of a third level spell, your ability to find jungle temples is unchanged. It's irrelevant to the discussion.

[heavyfuel]

Yep, it's not that hard to realize my point, right?

Again. Citation needed.

It actually is.

My citation says every spell has a minimum caster level required. At best this is "Ask your DM what is the minimum CL required for each spell", and I don't think most DMs will say the minimum caster level for a beguiler to cast a second level spell is anything less than 4.

At worst, it means you need to use the tables accompanying every single spellcasting class.

[ben-zayb]

My citation says every spell has a minimum caster level required.I'm with you here, yes. While it is cut and dry RAW, it's also a rule without further instructions to guide it. (aside from specific ones like Fireball)


At best this is "Ask your DM what is the minimum CL required for each spell", and I don't think most DMs will say the minimum caster level for a beguiler to cast a second level spell is anything less than 4.

At worst, it means you need to use the tables accompanying every single spellcasting class.And... again, this is the part where RAW is lacking, hence why I am asking for citation. If you, as a DM, want to houserule it either way, that's your prerogative in your table. death390 illustrates the lack of uniformity with fast progression classes, and that also applies to casters with non-9th progression, such as Rangers, Paladins, Nar Demonbinders, Bards, etc.

Ultimately, RAW discussions can and will include early tricks to cast spells of higher level, and it can for the most part freely ignore the earlier rule of minimum CL if it isn't Fireball because there's no RAW for most other spells (or spells of a particular spell level).

TLDR: Rules about minimum CL for casting spells of a particular level is dysfunctional, if not nonfunctional

[heavyfuel]

It's not dysfunctional. It only requires you to actually read the tables for each spellcasting class, or for your DM to adjudicate the minimum CL.

Either way, you definitely can't cast a spell if your CL isn't high enough, which breaks most of these "early entry" tricks.

[Nifft]

I'm with you here, yes. While it is cut and dry RAW, it's also a rule without further instructions to guide it. (aside from specific ones like Fireball)

It's a pretty pervasive rule though. Here it is in the Ability Scores (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#abilityScores) section:



Abilities And Spellcasters

The ability that governs bonus spells depends on what type of spellcaster your character is: Intelligence for wizards; Wisdom for clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers; or Charisma for sorcerers and bards. In addition to having a high ability score, a spellcaster must be of high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level.


That's in the most basic of the core mechanics -- the page is literally "theBasics.htm".

It's not really plausible to call that a house rule.

[ben-zayb]

It's not dysfunctional. It only requires you to actually read the tables for each spellcasting class, or for your DM to adjudicate the minimum CL.Please cite a RAW instruction that specifically asks to refer to a table for purposes of "caster level" and "class level" requirements. You can't, because there isn't any such citation.

The tables you see are for spells per day for purposes of preparing spells or casting spells spontaneously, with no references whatsoever to CL


Either way, you definitely can't cast a spell if your CL isn't high enough, which breaks most of these "early entry" tricks.Except, again, you have no information on what the minimum CLs per spell level are if you are just basing it on RAW.


It's not really plausible to call that a house rule.The houserule part is the DM adjudicating/defining what the minimum class level is, because it wasn't explicitly mentioned, and no formula was explicitly provided, for specific spells or spells of a given spell level.

Sure, you can extrapolate based on tables, which makes sense. But at that point you are already making a ruling in the absence of one.

I can also extrapolate that monks are proficient with their Unarmed attacks or totemists are proficient with natural weapons from their soulmelds, because that just won't make sense otherwise, but that's similarly no longer part of RAW.

[Nifft]

The houserule part is the DM adjudicating/defining what the minimum class level is, because it wasn't explicitly mentioned, and no formula was explicitly provided, for specific spells or spells of a given spell level.

Sure, you can extrapolate based on tables, which makes sense. But at that point you are already making a ruling in the absence of one.

You don't have to extrapolate -- every possible value is listed on the tables.

There needs to be an empty space in order for extrapolation to occur.

Just look up on the table what level caster gets what level spells.

There's no formula because instead there are tables.

D&D loves table look-ups.

[heavyfuel]

Dude, I've show at least twice now citations that say you have to have a minimum CL before casting a spell. Nifft has also done it. At this point I'm pretty sure you're just trolling (because apparently it's 2008 again) and I'll follow standard internet protocol of no longer feeding you.

[ben-zayb]

Just look up on the table what level caster gets what level spells.

There's no formula because instead there are tables.Not quite, as what it shows is only what class level gets how many spells per day per spell level normally. Whether that also shows the hard limit on minimum class level and thus prevents early tricks from working, is not determined by current RAW.


Dude, I've show at least twice now citations that say you have to have a minimum CL before casting a spell. Nifft has also done it. At this point I'm pretty sure you're just trolling (because apparently it's 2008 again) and I'll follow standard internet protocol of no longer feeding you.Considering the fact that I've repeatedly confirmed that I know there is a minimum CL, and you simply completely missing my point, I'm inclined to believe it's the other way around. And while I wouldn't attribute your responses to malice, it's honestly fruitless to repeatedly explain what can't be grasped

[Aharon]

What are you asking here? It looks like you're trying to bring item creation into a thread about Rainbow Servant. Rainbow Servant is irrelevant to item creation. Drinking a potion is also not casting a spell. If you suddenly find yourself able to drink a potion of a third level spell, your ability to find jungle temples is unchanged. It's irrelevant to the discussion.

I was curious if Mato's position was internally consistent. If you argue against early entry based on the semantics of Heighten spell and effective vs. real levels, other, even more ridiculous stuff becomes possible.

[zergling.exe]

Not quite, as what it shows is only what class level gets how many spells per day per spell level normally. Whether that also shows the hard limit on minimum class level and thus prevents early tricks from working, is not determined by current RAW.

Considering the fact that I've repeatedly confirmed that I know there is a minimum CL, and you simply completely missing my point, I'm inclined to believe it's the other way around. And while I wouldn't attribute your responses to malice, it's honestly fruitless to repeatedly explain what can't be grasped

Well, then we look at the ability score section of the PHB to give us the answer, since it points out that the table IS in fact also what the minimum caster level is:


The ability that governs bonus spells (see Chapter 3: Classes) depends on what type of spellcaster your character is: Intelligence for wizards; Wisdom for clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers; or Charisma for sorcerers and bards. In addition to having a high ability score, a spellcaster must be of high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level. (See the class descriptions in Chapter 3 for details.) For instance, the wizard Mialee has an Intelligence score of 15, so she’s smart enough to get one bonus 1st level spell and one bonus 2nd-level spell. (She will not actually get the 2nd-level spell until she is 3rd level wizard, since that’s the minimum level a wizard must be to cast 2nd-level spells.)


The ability that governs bonus spells depends on what type of spellcaster your character is: Intelligence for wizards; Wisdom for clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers; or Charisma for sorcerers and bards. In addition to having a high ability score, a spellcaster must be of high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level.

Now the SRD cuts out the very important example, but as we can see, the PHB does make the rule work by laying out what your minimum caster level is. This will be ignored again saying it only applies to wizards and their 2nd level spells, but really? That's a stupid argument.

[death390]

also i found the Specific trumps general rule, mind you that this is the literal version not the paraphrase.

Dnd 3.5 Rules Errata

"Errata Rule: Primary Sources
When you find a disagreement between two D&D® rules sources, unless an official errata file says otherwise, the primary source is correct. One example of a primary/secondary source is text taking precedence over a table entry. An individual spell description takes precedence when the short description in the beginning of the spells chapter disagrees. Another example of primary vs. secondary sources involves book and topic precedence. The Player's Handbook, for example, gives all the rules for playing the game, for playing PC races, and for using base class descriptions. If you find something on one of those topics from the DUNGEON MASTER's Guide or the Monster Manual that disagrees with the Player's Handbook, you should assume the Player's Handbook is the primary source. The
DUNGEON MASTER's Guide is the primary source for topics such as magic item descriptions, special material construction rules, and so on. The Monster Manual is the primary source for monster descriptions, templates, and supernatural, extraordinary, and spell-like abilities. "


when parsed it says that
Official Errata > Primary source
Text> Table
latest topic book > not topic book

for example players handbook has many spells but Spell compendium is the topic book for spells before 2005. spells publish after 2005 might not be subject to that though as they might not have been considered back in 2005. for example if any spell from magic of incarnum breaks a spell compendium rule MoI takes precedence because they are Incarnum based spells.

Additionally Feats as a whole give you the ability to do something which is normally not allowed, that is WHY they often have the section listed "Normal:" in their descriptions. this is not always the case such as deflect arrows as it doesn't have a "Normal:" section but still allows you to do what it states in the description. or are you saying that the feat has no effect?

EDIT: thanks to colorblindninja for posting this one.
"Originally Posted by Rules Compendium Pg. 5
ORDER OF RULES APPLICATION
The D&D game assumes a specific order of rules application: General to specific to exception. A general rule is a basic guideline, but a more specific rule takes precedence when applied to the same activity. For instance, a monster description is more specific than any general rule about monsters, so the description takes precedence. An exception is a particular kind of specific rule that contradicts or breaks another rule (general or specific). The Improved Disarm feat, for instance, provides an exception to the rule that an attacker provokes an attack of opportunity from the defender he’s trying to disarm (see Disarm, page 45).
I'm not sure if that helps. "


on to the other part of this issue. Raw states that "You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question,". however it DOES NOT explain what that explicitly means in any way shape or form beyond the fireball example. in no other book INCLUDING SPELL COMPENDIUM! does it reference minimum caster level beyond magic item creation. most have taken this to mean that the minimum caster level is the CL that you acquire the ability to cast that spell to prevent major dysfunction of the rules since it would prevent many spells from being used otherwise.

If spells individually have a specific CL minimum then the first class to be able to cast it would have to set the minimum CL. problems with this? Trapsmith for example has arcane sight (and many other spells) at lower listed spell level (1 instead of 3), arcane sight is spell level 1 meaning the minimum caster level for arcane sight would be CL 1.

If spell levels have a minimum caster level then any class that gets spells faster than a normal fast/prepared/spontaneous caster can't use them until they get to that caster level. since the example shows the lvl 3 spell fireball has a minimum of 5 that means it seems to be based on prepared caster but that screws over anything that has fast progression.

If the class level that you gain access to the spell level is the minimum caster level then that at least makes sense. a sorcerer casting fireball would be minimum CL 6, wizard CL 5, and Beholder Mage CL 3. it even fixed the issue of different spell levels for different classes because it is dependent of the class.

HOWEVER Versatile spellcaster explicitly states that "You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher. For example, a sorcerer with this feat can expend two 2nd-level spell slots to cast any 3rd-level spell he knows." which means that by the letter of the rules using 2 spell slots of equivalent level you may cast ANY spell known by the caster that is 1 spell level above the sacrificed slots. a strict reading of this means that you cant sacrifice two (for example) Spell level 0 slots and cast a (for example) spell level 0 spell instead it must be (for example) spell level 1.



also zergling that example is NOT minimum CASTER LEVEL the example you posted shows simply the MINIMUM CLASS level. as at the point of printing there was no way to cast a spell beyond the listed values, however a wizard with the precocious apprentice feat is able to cast a single 2nd level spell via a spellcraft check or does that feat not work at all???? the minimum class level for the PHB wizard to cast 2nd level spells is 3rd level.

[kulosle]

What ben-zayb is trying to say is that there is bo where that it says "the minimum caster level to cast a spell is determined by the earliest class level the class learns that spell."

I agree that this is clearly what it is suppose to be But it is not stated anywhere. Even if we take your last example. It doesn't even say caster level.


She will not actually get the 2nd-level spell until she is 3rd level wizard, since that’s the minimum level a wizard must be to cast 2nd-level spells


From this it's sounds like it's talking about class level or maybe character levels. Both don't work as an arguement. Even if you interpret it to mean caster level. Then other things become an issue. Because by raw the archmage doesn't advance caster level. But it does give you higher spell slots and spells known. Are you unable to cast those spells?

The point ben-zayb was making (I think) is there is not enough solid rules to play the game. You have to use house rules or rai.

But also you seem to be arguing in two different directions. Saying that you can't use versatile spell caster to cast heighten spells because you aren't a high enough level to cast that high level of spells. But you also argue that heighten spell isn't actually a higher level spell. Only 1 of those can be true.

[Troacctid]

It all fits together pretty neatly if you just decide that you need to have access to the appropriate level of spell slot in order to count as being able to cast spells of that level for the purpose of prerequisites. Cuts out most early entry tricks (which I know a lot of people dislike) and solves the question of the spellcaster who has 3rd level slots but only took 2nd level spells known.

[kulosle]

Oh I agree. There are lots of sensible ways to house rule these problems away but they are all house rules. I have yet to meet a table that says monks aren't proficient with their fists. But it is still a house rule, no matter how universal they are.

[Troacctid]

Actually, I think some of the quotes upthread provide enough textual evidence to support it as a potential reading of RAW.

[Mato]

Caster level debate is the same as all other parts of this debate.
"Specific Trumps General"
Versatile spellcaster is the specific that lets you ignore all caster level, ability score, and class level restrictions. That's the argument anyhow.
Show the text which you think specifies that you're allowed to ignore those rules.
I don't know where "specific trumps general" is located, someone else needs to help you with that.@Someone, if you're going to make such a board claim about the feat, you might as well say it ignores arcane spell failure and antimagic field too. Otherwise, logically, you have to admit limitations apply.

But the fact that you'll argue things based off something someone else may, or may not, have said with no actual idea of something is true or not is terrible. You need a citation to back up your claims, one way or another. And a direct rule citation preventing even the choice to cast a 2nd level spell until you have an available second level slot was already submitted a page ago. Versatile spellcaster does not provide a second level slot so the discussion, whether you like it or not, agree or disagree, is over.


Just to understand where you're coming from: As you have a very RAW reading, would you also argue that, since metamagic doesn't change the level of spells, you can put extremely metamagic'd spells into items?If you are in a total vacuum and trying to say casting a quickened fireball is a 3rd level, or 7th level, spell it seems like the text doesn't make sense. Even the directly entry preceding it is a little unhelpful.

But the text is presenting in a certain way to help explain things and ignoring it is just like ignoring any other rule so let's start there shall we?

As a spellcaster’s knowledge of magic grows, she can learn to cast spells in ways slightly different from the ways in which the spells were originally designed or learned. For example, a spellcaster can learn to cast a spell without having to say its verbal component, to cast a spell for greater effect, or even to cast it with nothing but a moment’s thought. Preparing and casting a spell in such a way is harder than normal but, thanks to metamagic feats, at least it is possible.
For instance, at 3rd level, Mialee chooses to gain Silent Spell, the feat that allows her to cast a spell without its verbal component. The cost of doing so, however, is that in preparing the spell, she must use up a spell slot one spell level higher than the spell actually is. Thus, if she prepares charm person as a silent spell, it takes up one of her 2nd-level slots. It is still only a 1st-level spell, so the DC for the Will save against it does not go up. Mialee cannot prepare a 2nd-level spell as a silent spell because she would have to prepare it as a 3rd level spell, and she can’t use 3rd-level spell slots until she reaches 5th level.

Sorcerers and Bards: Sorcerers and bards choose spells as they cast them. They can choose when they cast their spells whether to apply their metamagic feats to improve them. As with other spellcasters, the improved spell uses up a higher-level spell slot.

Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell: In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell. Saving throw modifications are not changed unless stated otherwise in the feat description.What it's trying to say is you have to use a 7th level slot (and be a thirteenth level wizard) to cast this spell that in all ways is still a 3rd level spell. Since this is an all encompassing statement it includes how feat and prestigious class requirements are supposed to interact with metamagic feats.

But returning back to magic items and to more directly answer your question. We know that near the end of the metamagic explanation the PHB is taking it for granted that you're able to differentiate between the two and if you can't then "spell’s higher spell level" is probably going to be confusing. You may even still be struggling with it some. So how about instead of looking for rules on magic items inside the PHB, let's check the book with the rules on magic items?

Using metamagic feats, a caster can place spells in items at a higher level than normal. For example, a caster could heighten a spell’s level to increase its effectiveness, or quicken a spell to allow it to be used as a free action, placing it within an item at the higher metamagic level. See Chapter 5: Feats in the Player’s Handbook for more on metamagic feats.And from this, well I can't tell you that "metamagic" is some kind of defined term but I can at least tell you that it doesn't say "spell’s higher spell level" in a confusing way.

This also allows it to skip past how a quickened fireball is in all ways a 3rd level spell. A quickened fireball may be a 3rd level spell but when it comes to magical item limitations and pricing, they are actually technically based on the metamagic's effective cost and slot needed rather than the spell's level entry.

[death390]

@Someone, if you're going to make such a board claim about the feat, you might as well say it ignores arcane spell failure and antimagic field too. Otherwise, logically, you have to admit limitations apply.

But the fact that you'll argue things based off something someone else may, or may not, have said with no actual idea of something is true or not is terrible. You need a citation to back up your claims, one way or another. And a direct rule citation preventing even the choice to cast a 2nd level spell until you have an available second level slot was already submitted a page ago. Versatile spellcaster does not provide a second level slot so the discussion, whether you like it or not, agree or disagree, is over.

If you are in a total vacuum and trying to say casting a quickened fireball is a 3rd level, or 7th level, spell it seems like the text doesn't make sense. Even the directly entry preceding it is a little unhelpful.

But the text is presenting in a certain way to help explain things and ignoring it is just like ignoring any other rule so let's start there shall we?


What it's trying to say is you have to use a 7th level slot (and be a thirteenth level wizard) to cast this spell that in all ways is still a 3rd level spell. Since this is an all encompassing statement it includes how feat and prestigious class requirements are supposed to interact with metamagic feats.

But returning back to magic items and to more directly answer your question. We know that near the end of the metamagic explanation the PHB is taking it for granted that you're able to differentiate between the two and if you can't then "spell’s higher spell level" is probably going to be confusing. You may even still be struggling with it some. So how about instead of looking for rules on magic items inside the PHB, let's check the book with the rules on magic items?
And from this, well I can't tell you that "metamagic" is some kind of defined term but I can at least tell you that it doesn't say "spell’s higher spell level" in a confusing way.

This also allows it to skip past how a quickened fireball is in all ways a 3rd level spell. A quickened fireball may be a 3rd level spell but when it comes to magical item limitations and pricing, they are actually technically based on the metamagic's effective cost and slot needed rather than the spell's level entry.


Part of the original text is this "For example,a sorcerer with this feat can expend two 2nd-level spell slots to cast any 3rd-level spell he knows." full stop, it does not say that you must have more than (-) spell slots of that level, it also doesn't say anything about casting restrictions on the spell. it simply states "You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher." this means that in the strictest reading of the rules it is not subject to any spell-casting restrictions. not that i would advise that mind you, i still think Attribute and ASF make sense to use because of the term Cast in the description. however Caster Level minimums are not flushed out in any meaningful way AND as much as i hate the FAQ they at one point stated that you could use the ability to use metamagic in slots above what could normally be cast such as a still spell magic missile out of 2 1st level slots at level 1. no i don't have the quote someone else posted it forever ago in another thread i read when i first looked at this feat.

don't forget Versatile spellcaster is not a Metamagic feat, it is a General one. this means it changes the way magic is cast overall not by spell slot adjustment, personally even playing with the "Minimum Caster Level is the point you gain access to the level of spell" variation of the incomplete rule; this means that you gain access to the next level of spells at an earlier caster level at the cost of 2 slots instead of 1.

[Mato]

Part of the original text is this "For example,a sorcerer with this feat can expend two 2nd-level spell slots to cast any 3rd-level spell he knows." full stop, it does not say that you must have more than (-) spell slots of that level, it also doesn't say anything about casting restrictions on the spell. it simply states "You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher."

@Someone, if you're going to make such a board claim about the feat, you might as well say it ignores arcane spell failure and antimagic field too. Otherwise, logically, you have to admit limitations apply.@Someone, if you're going to make such a board claim about the feat, you might as well say it ignores arcane spell failure and antimagic field too. Otherwise, logically, you have to admit limitations apply.
Funny thing is, we actually have rules that says a sorcerer needs a 3rd level slot and we have rules that a sorcerer needs to fulfill somatic requirements. Your proposal ignores those and over favors a single sentence above everything else. It's like arguing you can make a full-attack while under the effects of slow because your ignoring the text that says you cannot and favoring the text that says you get one full-around action on your turn.

Let me introduce you to the three biggest lies of your life. The first is this.

Fallacy of accent – a specific type of ambiguity that arises when the meaning of a sentence is changed by placing an unusual prosodic stress, or when, in a written passage, it's left unclear which word the emphasis was supposed to fall on.The second one is in my signature. And the third one, well unfortunately no one can be told what it is. It is everywhere you are. It is all around you. Even now, in your very room. You can see it when you look out your window or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work…when you go to 4chan…when you post on the forum. It is like a a prison that you cannot smell or taste or touch. You applaud it and wear t-shirts about people who reject it and substitute their own because it validates your choices to do the same. You could take the upper right link and the story ends, log out now and believe whatever you want to believe. You continue to take the other links, read various discussions, and eventually...not in the thread you're replying to...you'll realize the truth.

[death390]

Funny thing is, we actually have rules that says a sorcerer needs a 3rd level slot and we have rules that a sorcerer needs to fulfill somatic requirements. Your proposal ignores those and over favors a single sentence above everything else. It's like arguing you can make a full-attack while under the effects of slow because your ignoring the text that says you cannot and favoring the text that says you get one full-around action on your turn.

Let me introduce you to the three biggest lies of your life. The first is this.
The second one is in my signature. And the third one, well unfortunately no one can be told what it is. It is everywhere you are. It is all around you. Even now, in your very room. You can see it when you look out your window or when you turn on your television. You can feel it when you go to work…when you go to 4chan…when you post on the forum. It is like a a prison that you cannot smell or taste or touch. You applaud it and wear t-shirts about people who reject it and substitute their own because it validates your choices to do the same. You could take the upper right link and the story ends, log out now and believe whatever you want to believe. You continue to take the other links, read various discussions, and eventually...not in the thread you're replying to...you'll realize the truth.

and i can see that you stopped reading after you saw that quote because i explicitly state that using that reading would not be a good idea. Feats are exceptions to the rules yes, but the more you can make them conform to the rules while obeying RAI the better. i will repeat my previous statement. the FAQ (as much as we all hate it it is "right" unless blatantly wrong) ruled that it gave you access to spell slots above what you can normally cast with an example of a metamagic spell that normally couldn't cast. second caster level minimums were never flushed out in any meaningful way and if read in any way but 1 leads to making several instances of impossible to use features. when read the way that doesn't this trick allows VSpc to do what the fact stated.

[Falontani]

You can create a potion of up to third level, a wand of up to fourth level.
Can I create a potion of Maximized Cure Serious Wounds? Cure Serious Wounds is a third level spell and thus is acceptable for a potion. A maximized Cure serious Wounds (iirc) is a 7th level spell for pricing, but should still be able to follow all the normal rules for creating a potion if it is a third level spell.
If it is not a third level spell and can not be created (because its a 7th level spell due to metamagic) then the same argument can be used to allow someone that only has access to Cure Serious Wounds, but can cast a Maximized version at 7th level is able to cast 7th level spells. The rules compendium says nothing about THIS instance.

I love how the ones arguing haven't attempted to answer my question and are just arguing in circles. A RAW answer here should solve the debate.

[Jack_Simth]

You can create a potion of up to third level, a wand of up to fourth level. Can I create a potion of Maximized Cure Serious Wounds? Cure Serious Wounds is a third level spell and thus is acceptable for a potion. A maximized Cure serious Wounds (iirc) is a 7th level spell for pricing, but should still be able to follow all the normal rules for creating a potion if it is a third level spell. If it is not a third level spell and can not be created (because its a 7th level spell due to metamagic) then the same argument can be used to allow someone that only has access to Cure Serious Wounds, but can cast a Maximized version at 7th level is able to cast 7th level spells. The rules compendium says nothing about THIS instance.
Hardly needs to. It's mentioned in the SRD:

Magic Items and Metamagic Spells

With the right item creation feat, you can store a metamagic version of a spell in a scroll, potion, or wand. Level limits for potions and wands apply to the spell’s higher spell level (after the application of the metamagic feat). A character doesn’t need the metamagic feat to activate an item storing a metamagic version of a spell. (emphasis added, specific text copied and pasted from here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#magicItemsandMetamagicSpells))
Yes, it uses spell level, which is technically only modified by Heighten spell, but the intent is clear enough.

As to the OP... could possibly do it with just two feats via Sanctum Spell and Precocious Apprentice. Potentially could solve the problem of requiring more than one spell per day via Extra Slot.

[Karl Aegis]

Hardly needs to. It's mentioned in the SRD:
(emphasis added, specific text copied and pasted from here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#magicItemsandMetamagicSpells))
Yes, it uses spell level, which is technically only modified by Heighten spell, but the intent is clear enough.

As to the OP... could possibly do it with just two feats via Sanctum Spell and Precocious Apprentice. Potentially could solve the problem of requiring more than one spell per day via Extra Slot.

"You gain an extra 2nd-level spell slot that must be used initially to cast only the chosen spell." doesn't give you a pass to apply metamagic to your chosen spell.

[death390]

Hardly needs to. It's mentioned in the SRD:
(emphasis added, specific text copied and pasted from here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#magicItemsandMetamagicSpells))
Yes, it uses spell level, which is technically only modified by Heighten spell, but the intent is clear enough.

As to the OP... could possibly do it with just two feats via Sanctum Spell and Precocious Apprentice. Potentially could solve the problem of requiring more than one spell per day via Extra Slot.

actually that isn't possible since precocious apprentice only lets you use the designated spell in that slot until you gain access to 2nd level spells. "You gain an extra 2nd-level spell slot that must be used initially to cast only the chosen spell. Until your level is high enough to allow you to cast 2nd-level spells, you must succeed on a DC 8 caster level check to successfully cast this spell; if you fail, the spell is miscast to no effect."

[Aharon]

And from this, well I can't tell you that "metamagic" is some kind of defined term but I can at least tell you that it doesn't say "spell’s higher spell level" in a confusing way.

This also allows it to skip past how a quickened fireball is in all ways a 3rd level spell. A quickened fireball may be a 3rd level spell but when it comes to magical item limitations and pricing, they are actually technically based on the metamagic's effective cost and slot needed rather than the spell's level entry.

Well, it does say "spell's higher spell level" in a confusing way. There's no such thing as a "higher metamagic level". It is not defined. Either we apply common sense - and come to the ruling you proposed, but also do that to not shut versatile spellcaster down - or we use strict RAW, and get an exploit or a "not defined", but can argue against versatile spellcaster in the same vein.
To be lenient with the exact language in one case and not in the other is incongruent, in my opinion.

[Necroticplague]

Why is it always Earth Spell that comes up in these kinds of discussion? Eldritch Corruption is less of a pain to slot into a caster build (less prerequisites, and it’s one prerequisite is pretty easy), and gives two levels of heighten, instead of 1. You’d think it would be more if the go to option.

[Troacctid]

Why is it always Earth Spell that comes up in these kinds of discussion? Eldritch Corruption is less of a pain to slot into a caster build (less prerequisites, and it’s one prerequisite is pretty easy), and gives two levels of heighten, instead of 1. You’d think it would be more if the go to option.
Taint is a relatively unpopular optional rule that a lot of campaigns won't be using. And if you are using it, it comes with a lot of awkward baggage.

[ATalsen]

Theoretically possible (depends on the Interpretation of "Level Spells as "Spells that occupy a slot of said Level" instead of Spells of that Level", a typical RAW Argument often seen).

No DM I know would ever allow it though. ;)

I've got a Rainbow-Warsnake PC build running in my campaign at the moment, and we are high enough level that it has the 'all cleric spell access'. Its not overpowered that I have seen - not compared to the PoW builds and other high-end PCs in the campaign.

Its certainly not for all campaigns, though.