The "Most Spells from most Lists and per day" Character...with a big Limit

[GrayDeath]

As the Title says, mostly for a thought experiment I am looking for the build that allows access to the most spells from the most lists ....but without ever getting 7th or higher Level Spells.

The "Spammer" of low to Mid Level magic. The ultimate "I`ve got a Spell for that" guy. But not a true Power.


Why? Because I myself dont think I can do it (well), and some upcoming games might be able to use it well.

So, again, limited to 6th Level Spells, but getting as many per day, and access to as many lists/Spells as possible.

Cheese is allowed, but only up to 50% fat (^^). Nothing that fixes the alignment, no Infinity anything.
Everything else is free game.


Thank you all in advance.


Edit: 3.P, with all 3.5 Classes/Feats that do not have a clear successor in PF allowed, other stuff may be, but it would be better if it was mainly aimed at a good "Combo" of both. :)

[ColorBlindNinja]

My first thought is that you can abuse Planar Binding.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I mean...

Straight-up chameleon from Races of Destiny?

Grab the best ring of wizardry you can afford and that's pretty much done.

[schreier]

Archivist and/or Spell-to-Power Erudite have the most spell lists available to them.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

What you want is a Theurge of some kind. That should be the base of your build, IMO. Maybe then you could go into another Theurge class?
Start with an Arcane/Divine, using early entry, then use more early entry to get into a few levels of bard/psionic to avoid getting 9s anywhere.

[bean illus]

Something like:
Bard1/Arch1/Wiz3/Cham10/SubCh1/MT4

Arch3/Wiz3/MT9/Bard1/SubCh4

Most folks here can do better.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Beguiler 1/specialist wizard 4/ultimate magus 10/legacy champion 5. That gets you 15th-level beguiler casting and 15th-level wizard casting. Three of your 8th-level slots (2 base + 1 bonus) can all be broken down into 4ths with Arcane Manipulation, leaving only extra bonus 8ths that you can't use (26 INT to have one bonus 8th, 34 INT to have a second)(if that's still not allowed, replace wizard 4 with Exalted Arcanist or Eunuch Warlock). Your spell slot quota @ 32 INT (leaving no bonus 8ths) are:

Beguiler: 6 15 15 15 14 8 8 6
Wizard*: 6 13 13 13 15 9 6 5 0
Total: 12 28 28 28 29 17 14 11 0

A ring of wizardry doesn't double spell slots from specialization or high ability scores. I suppose that means it doesn't affect spell slots from a wizard domain either. It's still better to specialize/get a domain, but Focused Specialist isn't worth it.

You can qualify for Ultimate Magus one level earlier (with Primary Contact), but then you get more 8th-level slots, which aren't super useful under these restrictions.

You can also use Duskblade instead of Beguiler, which gets you more low-level slots (29 vs. 24 slots of level 1-4), but fewer mid-level slots (no 5-7 at all), resulting in a net loss of 6 slots + 6 bonus slots.


Anything that lets you prepare an additional spell by expending some resource can be used to get NI prepared spells by simply taking NI of said resource (which can be time, money, power points etc.), as prepared spells don't go anywhere if you don't cast them.


*8th-level slots broken down as follows:
1 + 2 + 5 = 8
3 + 5 = 8
4 + 4 = 8
Just to get a slightly more balanced total.

[TiaC]

Start with a 13th level Pathfinder Bard. No archetype is needed. Take the Music Beyond the Spheres (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/bard/bardic-masterpieces/masterpieces/music-beyond-the-spheres-dance-sing-string) masterpiece. Now, as a full-round action, you can cast limited wish as a supernatural ability by spending one round of bardic music. This means no material component, no SR, it can't be dispelled, it ignores longer casting times, and it doesn't provoke.

However, there are downsides to the ability. First, it causes ability drain whenever you use it. This can be mitigated by being a construct or undead, but that's difficult. So, you buy a Ring of Inner Fortitude, Major (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/rings/ring-of-inner-fortitude) for 42,000 gp and shrug off the ability drain. Second, the wish is interpreted by "an alien entity of the Dark Tapestry". Luckily, there is a trait called Thoughtful Wish-Maker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/regional-traits/thoughtful-wish-maker-plane-of-fire). With this trait, if you can succeed at a DC 30 Sense Motive check, you know how to word a wish granted by an outsider such that your words are not twisted. Thus, you get what you want from your wishes.

So, this Bard can cast spontaneously off all lists up to 5th level and off the Sorc/Wiz list up to 6th level dozens of times a day. You can then use your swift action to use bardic music.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I feel like people are forgetting that the OP said he didn't want the character to be able to cast 7th level or higher spells and to get access to as many lists as possible.

[Goaty14]

I feel like people are forgetting that the OP said he didn't want the character to be able to cast 7th level or higher spells and to get access to as many lists as possible.


Archivist and/or Spell-to-Power Erudite have the most spell lists available to them.

Piggybacking off of this, (specifically) an Archivist 3/StP Erudite 3/Psychic Theurge 10/Whatever-that-doesn't-give CL 4 fits the bill by:

-Is able to cast any divine spell (If he has the scroll for non-cleric spells)
-Able to manifest any arcane spell (If he has seen it been used)
-Able to manifest any power.
...all up to 7th level. Take 1 less level of Psychic Theurge if you're aiming for 6th level spells.

Which covers most meaningful spell-systems in D&D, any questions?

[Helluin]

Be an Artificer, burn an absurd amount of your wealth to craft a scepter of Limited Wish

Make a Schema (permanent scrolls that can be used 1/day, can contain up to 6th lvl spell) of Unfettered Heroism (regenerates 1 temporary Action Point each round, but only last one round) using Etch Schema.

Take Wand Surge feat (allows you to spend an action point to mitigate the charge cost of spell trigger item, including scepters, staves, and wands).

By lvl. 11 you can apply persistent metamagic to your Schema, so have persistent Unfettered Herosim on yourself every day.

Now you can cast Limited Wish once per round without ever spending a single charge from your Scepter.

[GrayDeath]

OK, some seful tips so afar.
To clarify: with limited cheese I meant "not a cheesed item that anyone can just steal" or "Spam infinite Wishes" or similar, as well as no "really questionable readings".

That its going to be some kind of Theurge build was almost clear from the get got. But which option gets me the most spells available and per day?
The above Theurge Version is already fun, but the Beguiler/Wuzard reaches 7th Level which I dont want, otherwise interesting.
The Psy Variant is a ... Osy Variant. I am asking Spells StP is rather considered a bit much over here. ;)

Open for more interesting suggestions. ;)

[thethird]

Chameleon has been mentioned but yeah, cameleon

[ShurikVch]

There are two variants:
1) Divine: Mystic Ranger with Sword of the Arcane Order, dip in Contemplative to get Spell domain (for Anyspell, Greater)
2) Arcane: Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, or Warmage into Eldritch Master PrC. The Eldritch Master have rather underwhelming 2/10 CL progression, but allow to take two any spell lists, and add them to your spell list

[bean illus]

OK, some seful tips so afar.
To clarify: with limited cheese I meant "not a cheesed item that anyone can just steal" or "Spam infinite Wishes" or similar, as well as no "really questionable readings".

That its going to be some kind of Theurge build was almost clear from the get got. But which option gets me the most spells available and per day?
The above Theurge Version is already fun, but the Beguiler/Wuzard reaches 7th Level which I dont want, otherwise interesting.
The Psy Variant is a ... Osy Variant. I am asking Spells StP is rather considered a bit much over here. ;)

Open for more interesting suggestions. ;)


Something like:
Bard1/Arch1/Wiz3/Cham10/SubCh1/MT4

Arch3/Wiz3/MT9/Bard1/SubCh4

Most folks here can do better.
Honestly, Chamelion can't be beat for this. It RAW says ANY DIVINE/ARCANE spell. You can enter cham at 5? Double Aptitude literally DOUBLES the number of spells per day. In 10 levels ... with ability bonuses:

0.. 1.. 2.. 3.. 4.. 5.. 6..
8 10 10 10 10 8 4

The question (besides why) is: What to do for the first 5 levels, and the last 5.

That's where Sublime Chord comes in. It's a rapid advancement caster DELIVERING 4th LEVEL SPELLS AT 1st LEVEL and for the investment of Bard1/SuCh4 level you can net:

0.. 1.. 2.. 3.. 4.. 5.. 6..
2 . 0 . 0 . 0 . 3 . 3 . 2
Quite the payoff for 5 levels

Still need more base class. I assume this character needs spells before 5th level?

Bard6/Cham10/SubCh4
Short-n-sweet and does what you want.
You could go divine Bard for wisdom based spells.

.0.. 1.. 2.. 3.. 4.. 5.. 6..
11 14 13 10 13 11 6

[bean illus]

Sorc10 / Cham10 with versatile spellcaster?

Mega spellspam access.

[Nifft]

In order to cast the most spells per day, you probably want to cast 2 spells per round -- every round, all day.

That's a lot of spells.

Is that your goal here? It can be done, of course.


EDIT:
Sorc10 / Cham10 with versatile spellcaster?

Mega spellspam access.

Mostly yeah, but with this modification:


Sorc 5 / Chameleon 10 / Primal Scholar 5

Feats:
- Able Learner (for Chameleon entry)
- Practiced Spellcaster + Mysterious Magic (for Primal Scholar entry)
- Versatile Spellcaster

Take the Secret of Power and the spell unfettered heroism (either as a Sorcerer or as a Chameleon or both).

While unfettered heroism is in effect, you can regain up to 5 levels of expended spell slots every round as a free action. Of course, unfettered heroism is a level 5 spell, so you can cast it and then get it back the next round for free.

With Versatile Spellcaster, you can use 2x level 5 slots to cast any level 6 spell you know, so you can cast spells of levels 1 through 6 every round, all day.

[GrayDeath]

Hmmm, that may be a little too high on the fat cheese, as it closes to NI Effects.

But shouldnt a Theurge Build due to giving access at 2 spell caster classes, per se give me more spells/Day (accepting the Chamaeleons RAW Access to any spell is a bit problematic too, as its not at the same time, mefears...).

Edit: OK from Cha Level 8/Lvel 13 on it would work, a bt late but an option nonetheless. :

[bean illus]

Hmmm, that may be a little too high on the fat cheese, as it closes to NI Effects.

But shouldnt a Theurge Build due to giving access at 2 spell caster classes, per se give me more spells/Day (accepting the Chamaeleons RAW Access to any spell is a bit problematic too, as its not at the same time, mefears...).

I'm not certain what you're trying to say here, but the way I read it is... double aptitude specifically says you can take Arcane aptitude and Divine aptitude at the same time.

what are you asking for? I mean, if you want to cast any spell then take Any Spell and Greater Any Spell. But if you want to be able to spam mid level spells all day long, then take versatile spellcaster.

But most of the options are either MAD, alignment restricted, or need to go on a lactose diet.

Sorc3/FavSoul1/MT6/Cham10
Great spontaneous access to 1st through 4th level spells, plus the standard chameleon package. MAD though ...3 casting stats.

How many casting stats are you trying to pull off here? Chameleon alone needs intelligence and wisdom.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I'm not certain what you're trying to say here, but the way I read it is... double aptitude specifically says you can take Arcane aptitude and Divine aptitude at the same time.

what are you asking for? I mean, if you want to cast any spell then take Any Spell and Greater Any Spell. But if you want to be able to spam mid level spells all day long, then take versatile spellcaster.

But most of the options are either MAD, alignment restricted, or need to go on a lactose diet.

Sorc3/FavSoul1/MT6/Cham10
Great spontaneous access to 1st through 4th level spells, plus the standard chameleon package. MAD though ...3 casting stats.

How many casting stats are you trying to pull off here? Chameleon alone needs intelligence and wisdom.

Don't forget the chameleon's ability boon. At 10, they get a +6 competence bonus to one ability for each aptitude focus active. Pop one in to each of the lower casting stats. :smallbiggrin:

[bean illus]

Don't forget the chameleon's ability boon. At 10, they get a +6 competence bonus to one ability for each aptitude focus active. Pop one in to each of the lower casting stats. :smallbiggrin:
I totally let myself forget that. duh . It's part of the Facto-meleon build (every Cham build).
Thx.

That totally makes this Sorc/FS/MT/Cham much more feasible.

And don't forget Chameleon gets access to higher level spells through spell list shenanigans.

[Kelb_Panthera]

I totally let myself forget that. duh . It's part of the Facto-meleon build (every Cham build).
Thx.

Don't go into chameleon from factotum. There's basically no synergy there. If you're going for the arcane/divine focus, enter by a spellcasting class so you can qualify for some caster tricks that chameleon forbids you from grabbing with aptitude foci.

My favorite chameleon build is a changeling factotum 1/monk 2/incarnate 3/chameleon 10/X 5. Be a different character every day. :smallwink:

[bean illus]

Don't go into chameleon from factotum. There's basically no synergy there. If you're going for the arcane/divine focus, enter by a spellcasting class so you can qualify for some caster tricks that chameleon forbids you from grabbing with aptitude foci.

My favorite chameleon build is a changeling factotum 1/monk 2/incarnate 3/chameleon 10/X 5. Be a different character every day. :smallwink:
Uhhh... Brains over Brawn and Cunning Insight have utility in a lot of INT builds. It is acknowledged by many to be the best facto dip. It even fits in your build.

[Nifft]

Uhhh... Brains over Brawn and Cunning Insight have utility in a lot of INT builds. It is acknowledged by many to be the best facto dip. It even fits in your build.

I've seen Factotum brought up in a lot of Chameleon threads, but it's always shot down with convincing arguments by people who have tried the combo and felt the disappointment.

I think Brains Over Brawn is a legitimately good feature, but I'm not sure it's worth 3 levels, and I don't think it's got much synergy on a full-caster Chameleon. It's better for a mixed-gish than a full-caster.

[Sto]

Now, my addition here is kinda useless, but RAAW (rules as accidentally written) says that the vigilante gets 30 something 3rd level spell slots.

Now to be serious. Bamboo spirit folk for trackless step (or whatever it is they get). You then need to bard/cleric/sublime cord your way into arcane hierophant and mystic theurge. I think that will work.

Edit: Woodland stride, not trackless step.

[bean illus]

I've seen Factotum brought up in a lot of Chameleon threads, but it's always shot down with convincing arguments by people who have tried the combo and felt the disappointment.

I think Brains Over Brawn is a legitimately good feature, but I'm not sure it's worth 3 levels, and I don't think it's got much synergy on a full-caster Chameleon. It's better for a mixed-gish than a full-caster.
I'm not saying it's the best, but you do get cunning insight. INT to att, dam, and saves is a decent feature, and specifically synergies with Ability Boon.

And i think Fact3/Cham/10 is a bit of a gish?

I find Cham hard to build around, and I've heard others say so also.

But we're off point. This isn't a facto thread.

[Nifft]

I'm not saying it's the best, but you do get cunning insight. INT to att, dam, and saves is a decent feature. It would be, except the limitation on usage makes it kinda garbage.


And i think Fact3/Cham/10 is a bit of a gish?

I find Cham hard to build around, and I've heard others say so also. Chameleon is awesome and there are many excellent ways to spend the 5 (or 6) levels before you enter.

There's no one right way, but there are some wrong ways.

Factotum is usually the wrong way.


We had a thread on good Chameleon prefix builds, take a look for it.

[bean illus]

It would be, except the limitation on usage makes it kinda garbage.

Chameleon is awesome and there are many excellent ways to spend the 5 (or 6) levels before you enter.

There's no one right way, but there are some wrong ways.

Factotum is usually the wrong way.


We had a thread on good Chameleon prefix builds, take a look for it.
You seem to think I'm saying you're wrong?

I'm saying this isn't a facto thread. I mentioned facto in passing because i once built a facto-meleon and should have remembered ability boon.

Everyone knows there are endless 'stronger' builds, and I'm not the only person to use facto3. Though I wouldn't play it at 20th level, I think the build would be fun up to 14th.

But we're not talking about that. This is a how many spells a day thread. Thanks for the tip on the chameleon entry thread.

[Jack_Simth]

Building off Chameleon... Chameleon gets you *any* 6th level or lower spell with a little work, so how do we go about more spells per day... there we go, recent thread Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?558568-quot-Spontaneous-quot-spellcasting-of-5th-level-or-lower-as-a-Wizard).

So Bard-5/Chameleon-7 (for Double Aptitude)/Primal Scholar (Advancing Chameleon casting)-5/Legacy Champion-3 (progressing Primal Scholar twice, still pushing Chameleon). Then keep Unfettered Heroism running. You'll need Practiced Spellcaster(Bard) to qualify for Primal Scholar (Chameleon caster level can't qualify you for things).

... there you go. A 20th level build that gets 6th level and lower spells from any class list, and can cast them all (or at least, all the ones currently prepared... but see Uncanny Forethought) all day. Eberron Specific.

[ericgrau]

The ultimate "I`ve got a Spell for that" guy. But not a true Power.
Every low level utility scroll. Because honestly "that" obscure thing usually only happens once or never in the entire campaign anyway. If you expect more than once, then get a few of that scroll and/or restock. I've done it and it's loads of fun. Hopefully with your many class lists from thread tips you'll be able to use every scroll, otherwise UMD it.

So I was playing an obsessively curious mage. An NPC had a mysterious MacGuffin urn in his inn room. I had many scrolls but I didn't have knock, because 2nd level scrolls were expensive at my level and I didn't expect a locked door. There may have been a special super magic lock anyway, I forget. So I scroll cast tenser's floating disk from the crack under the door. I scroll cast unseen servant to push the urn onto the disk. The urn is over the weight limit. I scroll cast another unseen servant to help. I bring the disk to me, then scroll cast identify with my pinkie touching the urn under the door. I learn it is a vessel holding some great entity. The nervous DM asks if I'm going to do anything else. Right when he thinks I'm about to shatter his precious plot I say "Nah, I'm good. Curiosity satisfied. Plus I dunno if I can handle whatever's inside here in this inn in the middle of the night." NPC opens urn later to disrupt an event and we fight the entity.

I spent much of that campaign pulling random scrolls out of my butt for everything.

If you're going to load up on spell lists but not spell level, then try battlefield control spells for spells that are effective even when others are casting higher level spells. For oddly specific BFC that requires you to have the right spell for the right situation ("I've got a spell for that" BFC), try druid.

[bean illus]

So Bard-5/Chameleon-7 (for Double Aptitude)/Primal Scholar (Advancing Chameleon casting)-5/Legacy Champion-3 (progressing Primal Scholar twice, still pushing Chameleon). Then keep Unfettered Heroism running. You'll need Practiced Spellcaster(Bard) to qualify for Primal Scholar (Chameleon caster level can't qualify you for things).


I'm pretty sure you can't do that.

[Nifft]

I'm pretty sure you can't do that.

I think you're right.

Other PrCs can't advance Chameleon casting.

[Jack_Simth]

I think you're right.

Other PrCs can't advance Chameleon casting.

You can't qualify for anything based on the focus. However, the class is definitely a casting class.

[bean illus]

You can't qualify for anything based on the focus. However, the class is definitely a casting class.
But double aptitude is a class feature. Find a prc to advance other's class feature and it would work.

[Nifft]

You can't qualify for anything based on the focus. However, the class is definitely a casting class. There is no spellcasting class feature.

Aptitude Focus is a class feature, and spellcasting is just a thing you sometimes get from Aptitude Focus.

Find a class that advances Aptitude Focus.


Anyway, the Sorc 5 / Chameleon 10 / Primal Scholar 5 posted on the previous page works perfectly well and does the trick you're trying to do.

[ColorBlindNinja]

There is no spellcasting class feature.

Are you certain of that?


Spells
A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time, the way a wizard or a cleric must (see below).

[Nifft]

Are you certain of that?

What does the Sorcerer's spellcasting have to do with the Chameleon PrC's lack of a spellcasting class feature?

[ColorBlindNinja]

What does the Sorcerer's spellcasting have to do with the Chameleon PrC's lack of a spellcasting class feature?

Ah, I misunderstood; I though you mean that spellcasting isn't a class feature.

[Nifft]

Ah, I misunderstood; I though you mean that spellcasting isn't a class feature.

In the topic of discussion -- advancing the Chameleon class with the Primal Scholar class -- that is exactly correct, Spellcasting isn't a class feature in the former so the latter can't advance it.

That's what we had been discussing when you jumped in.

[Jack_Simth]

There is no spellcasting class feature.

Aptitude Focus is a class feature, and spellcasting is just a thing you sometimes get from Aptitude Focus.

Find a class that advances Aptitude Focus.
Where are you getting that you're specifically required to have the Spellcasting class feature to be considered a spellcasting class? You've got spells per day, spells known as applicable, and a caster level, all from a class feature. "A spellcasting class" doesn't name the spellcasting class feature itself.



Anyway, the Sorc 5 / Chameleon 10 / Primal Scholar 5 posted on the previous page works perfectly well and does the trick you're trying to do.
Hard to qualify for Chameleon as a Sorcerer; few skill points. Only most of it; doesn't get the 6th level at-wills.

[Nifft]

Where are you getting that you're specifically required to have the Spellcasting class feature to be considered a spellcasting class? You can't qualify for anything using that Chameleon class feature, or any other Chameleon class feature, as explained in the Chameleon text:


Class Features

The chameleon's class features allow you to adopt a variety of roles, from armored warrior to spellcaster to sneaky rogue.

You can't use any abilities gained from your aptitude focus, ability boon, or mimic class feature abilities to qualify for a feat, prestige class, or other option. You can use your bonus feat to qualify for such options, but if you change the feat, you suffer the normal drawbacks for no longer meeting a prerequisite or requirement.

You can't choose to advance a thing that doesn't qualify for any other option. Aptitude Focus grants stuff which is explicitly incompatible.


Hard to qualify for Chameleon as a Sorcerer; few skill points. Only most of it; doesn't get the 6th level at-wills. With a decent Int score (e.g. 12), the Sorcerer's skill points are more than sufficient. You need to get Disguise by picking a race like Silverbrow Human, or getting Silver Dragon Heritage, but beyond that it's really not difficult.

You're absolutely wrong about 6th level at-wills, can you figure out why? If it's not clear from the post on the 1st page, let me know, and I'll spoil you on some mid-level optimization.

[Jack_Simth]

You can't qualify for anything using that Chameleon class feature, or any other Chameleon class feature, as explained in the Chameleon text:

You can't choose to advance a thing that doesn't qualify for any other option. Aptitude Focus grants stuff which is explicitly incompatible.

You can't qualify for anything, sure. However: Most PrC's do NOT include the "that you used to qualify" clause in their advancement line (some do). For Primal Scholar, specifically, it's:

Spellcasting: At each level, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in a spellcasting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level. You do not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. If you had more than one spellcasting class before becoming a primal scholar, you must decide to which class to add each level for the purpose of determining spells per day, caster level, and spells known.
I'm not seeing a mention of "must be one you used to qualify" on there. Are you?

Again: Where are you getting this restriction?


With a decent Int score (e.g. 12), the Sorcerer's skill points are more than sufficient. You need to get Disguise by picking a race like Silverbrow Human, or getting Silver Dragon Heritage, but beyond that it's really not difficult.

You're absolutely wrong about 6th level at-wills, can you figure out why? If it's not clear from the post on the 1st page, let me know, and I'll spoil you on some mid-level optimization.
Missed that trick... but still, not quite at-will. You are using two slots per spell, and can only refresh them at the rate of one per round. So you're not spamming the 6th level ones every round (every other on long runs), although you can get several in a row.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I'm not seeing a mention of "must be one you used to qualify" on there. Are you?
I think the argument is simply that Aptitude Focus (Ex) isn't advanced by classes that offer increases in spellcasting. If I gain a level in Chameleon, what spellcasting advancement do I get? Well, nothing. I get Aptitude Focus advancement, sure, but that's not the same thing.

It's a bit (not completely) like Legacy Champion: you can definitely get spellcasting by advancing LC, but LC itself doesn't directly grant spellcasting.

[Nifft]

You can't qualify for anything, sure. However: Most PrC's do NOT include the "that you used to qualify" clause in their advancement line (some do). For Primal Scholar, specifically, it's:

I'm not seeing a mention of "must be one you used to qualify" on there. Are you?

Again: Where are you getting this restriction? Chameleon doesn't have spellcasting as a feature, so you can't advance Chameleon spellcasting.

When there's an option that allows you to pick one kind of spellcasting, you can't use anything granted by Aptitude Focus to qualify for that option -- and you can't choose a thing which disqualifies itself from ever being an option.

The things inside Aptitude Focus are deliberately excluded from interacting with build choices.


I think the argument is simply that Aptitude Focus (Ex) isn't advanced by classes that offer increases in spellcasting. If I gain a level in Chameleon, what spellcasting advancement do I get? Well, nothing. I get Aptitude Focus advancement, sure, but that's not the same thing.

It's a bit (not completely) like Legacy Champion: you can definitely get spellcasting by advancing LC, but LC itself doesn't directly grant spellcasting.

Yeah, this is an accurate way to say it.

[Jack_Simth]

Chameleon doesn't have spellcasting as a feature, so you can't advance Chameleon spellcasting.

The advancement detail doesn't reference the spellcasting class feature at all; that's only briefly mentioned on the table, and that's just a quick summary. Where are you getting that the spellcasting class feature is actually required?


When there's an option that allows you to pick one kind of spellcasting, you can't use anything granted by Aptitude Focus to qualify for that option -- and you can't choose a thing which disqualifies itself from ever being an option.
You're stating this. Can you actually quote a reason?

The things inside Aptitude Focus are deliberately excluded from interacting with build choices.
No, you're only excluded from qualifying for stuff based on it. Please find a quote where it is actually excluded from being advanced by something else.


Yeah, this is an accurate way to say it.
It only says increases spellcasting on the table, which is just a quick summary of features. The actual text is "At each level, you gain new spells per day and an increase in caster level (and spells known, if applicable) as if you had also gained a level in a spellcasting class to which you belonged before adding the prestige class level." (bigger quote earlier, I'm specifically grabbing from the PrC in question, and it's a pain to manually copy the text). Again: No reference to the specific spellcasting class feature that you seem to be assuming is there. When you have a divine or arcane focus, you've got spells per day, caster level, and spells sort-of known (at least, as much as for any Wizard). They're situational, sure, but then so are a lot of things.

[Nifft]

The advancement detail doesn't reference the spellcasting class feature at all; that's only briefly mentioned on the table, and that's just a quick summary. Where are you getting that the spellcasting class feature is actually required? If a thing does not exist, how do you propose that it should be advanced?

Give a detailed answer please, with citations for how other things that don't exist can be advanced.


You're stating this. Can you actually quote a reason? I think it was provided in the passage from Races of Destiny, but honestly it's not even necessary for you to understand or accept that point. There's no class spellcasting to advance.


No, you're only excluded from qualifying for stuff based on it. Please find a quote where it is actually excluded from being advanced by something else. It can be advanced, but only by advancing Aptitude Focus. Legacy Champion could advance Aptitude Focus and thus also advance spellcasting, for example. So it's not excluded from being advanced by something else, just by the thing that you happen to have picked up from my earlier build.

Hope that helps.

[bean illus]

I look at wizard and there is a class feature that says spells. I look under archivist and there is a class feature that says spells. I look under sorcerer and there is a class feature that says spells.

When I looked at chameleon there is a class feature that says aptitude, and another that says double aptitude. I do not see a class feature that says spells.

And just because it's true I will note that, the Opie asked repeatedly for light/medium cheese. Early entry to Mystic theurge is light cheese. Using a using a Caster advancing PRC to advance chameleon is ...

[Jack_Simth]

If a thing does not exist, how do you propose that it should be advanced?

Give a detailed answer please, with citations for how other things that don't exist can be advanced.

I'm not advancing something that doesn't exist. I'm advancing something that sometimes exists.

As an example: Suppose I cast Bear's Endurance (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/bearsEndurance.htm) on a pet Ghoul (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/ghoul.htm); a valid target, but no con score, so the enhancement bonus to Con doesn't do anything. However, while Bear's Endurance is still running, I cast Polymorph Any Object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm) on said Ghoul to turn it into a human. It now has a Con score - of 10. The Enhancement bonus still exists, and Con is no longer a nonability, so it's making Fort saves at +2 (+2 Con, +0 base). Once the If the Polymorph Any Object spell gets dispelled while the Bear's Endurance remains, Con becomes a nonability again, the Enhancement has no effect, and the Ghoul is making Fort saves at +0. But it does work while the ghoul has that con score.

I'm doing essentially the same thing for the Chameleon. PrC's that advance spellcasting increase spells per day, caster level, and spells known of the prior class. Sometimes, a Chameleon doesn't have these. During those timeframes, the PrC's advancement has no effect. Other times, the Chameleon does. During these timeframes, the PrC advances Chameleon casting. Sure, people call it "advances spellcasting" as shorthand, but those PrC entries don't actually reference the "spells" class feature! What's so odd about this?


I think it was provided in the passage from Races of Destiny, but honestly it's not even necessary for you to understand or accept that point. There's no class spellcasting to advance.
It was provided that the Chameleon focus for the day can't be used to qualify for feats, PrC's, and so on. Lots of people seem to be extrapolating that the Chameleon's focus for the day can't be impacted by other things. But it doesn't say that second half that people extrapolate. If I had a Bard-5/Chameleon-10 pick up Scribe Scroll with the floating feat, I could make a Caster Level 15 scroll of Heal as a 5th level spell (it's on the Adept spell list there) for a quick 150 HP healing later with a UMD check. Why? Well, during that timeframe, I have the caster level of 15 (I qualified for Scribe Scroll with the Bard levels), but I'm making the item's crafting requirements entirely by things from the Chameleon (floating feat and the Divine focus).


It can be advanced, but only by advancing Aptitude Focus. Legacy Champion could advance Aptitude Focus and thus also advance spellcasting, for example. So it's not excluded from being advanced by something else, just by the thing that you happen to have picked up from my earlier build.

Hope that helps.
The actual spellcasting advancement entries of PrC's (and especially the specific PrC in question) don't actually reference the spells class feature; just spell slots, spells known (as applicable) and caster level. The Chameleon has those (provided the Chameleon is using the divine and/or arcane focus at the time). Why are you having trouble accepting this?


I look at wizard and there is a class feature that says spells. I look under archivist and there is a class feature that says spells. I look under sorcerer and there is a class feature that says spells.

When I looked at chameleon there is a class feature that says aptitude, and another that says double aptitude. I do not see a class feature that says spells.

You'll also notice "spellcaster" is not actually a defined term. The Chameleon has spell slots and can cast spells (situationally, at least). They're actual spells, not spell-like abilities. How is a person that casts spells not a spellcaster?


And just because it's true I will note that, the Opie asked repeatedly for light/medium cheese. Early entry to Mystic theurge is light cheese. Using a using a Caster advancing PRC to advance chameleon is ...
... table dependent. What's heavy cheddar at one table may be par for the course at another. Some folks think using Power Attack with a two-handed weapon is cheese. Others think it's just basic melee-1.

[GrayDeath]

OK, lets for the sake of this thead say that no, Spellcating advancing Classes do not advance a Chamaeleons Aptitudes, Period.

And please lets get back to lower fat solutions? Pretty please? ^^