Reoccurring Gish BBEGs, aka evil party.

[Tindragon]

So, haven't done a true reoccurring BBEG in a long time. Well, outside of a the argyle Lich.

Been thinking, since as DM I pretty much allow my players to run anything RAW legal, from any published 3.5 and most 3.0 books, I get to DM all the optimized super PCs.

I've decided it's time for them to 'meet their match' so to speak. I've got some time, not DMing now, and probably not soon(hopefully actually, as I am having fun on the other side of the screen right now) but want to make an optimized evil party.

Was thinking an Evil Druid build, shape-changer with pets o doom...

An Incantatrix build, (focused Conj?)

maybe a ranged Bard, arcane arch, sub chord, going into abjchamp...

and a DMM cleric build, not sure if persist or quicken...

basically 4 optimized baddies, that are the anti-party. Who will start at level 10 or 11 and level up as the players do, going on their own adventures, that often will cross path with the PCs, or the PCs must catch them, step them, whatever... I'll story board it all out later.

I'm thinking not serious uber tank, instead, they'll summon for that, or perhaps have [evil] planar allies et al.

And always have an escape plan, teleport ready/scroll, word of recall, whatever.

I can do the maths, but what builds using these 4 base wants, would you use to cover it all? Really keep the party on their toes.

I'll probably build them using a 34-36 pt build if that matters.


The PCs as it stands, are elf wiz generalist, eladrin (kind of a human/celestial - very home brew) bard, whisper gnome rogue/swashbuckler, dwarf ftr/duskblade, human Ftr/Clr/Prc Pally and a human fighter... yeah,really, plain old human fighter... The fighter may or may not be returning next campaign. They'll all be 9th level and of course, should still be 6 players.

[Crake]

Keep in mind you'll still be at a disadvantage, because you're one person managing 4 characters, of which you don't regularly play, wheras the PCs only have 1 set of abilities each to remember, and play them often enough that they'll remember most (hopefully all, but lets be honest) of their abilities.

[Goaty14]

An Incantatrix build, (focused Conj?)

Nah. Not only is Transmutation better in higher levels, but having access to all spell schools is the real kicker.


Keep in mind you'll still be at a disadvantage, because you're one person managing 4 characters, of which you don't regularly play, wheras the PCs only have 1 set of abilities each to remember, and play them often enough that they'll remember most (hopefully all, but lets be honest) of their abilities.

However, he can manage all 4 characters with similar tactics, whereas the players might have differing ideas... like playing chess, but you switch your turn with 3 other people.

[Demidos]

I'd second what Crake said -- keeping track of the potential abilities of a single shapeshifting Druid PC is already a nightmare and a half, and you've dumped that whole workload on yourself as well as you mentioning that they would use summoning as a common tactic, which just leads to more book-keeping for yourself. Personally I would toss out some re-skinned monsters.

At level 10-11ish:
Standing in for the beastmaster druid: A muholdrani divine minion treant can summon powerful copies of itself which can be fluffed as animals. Maybe let him cast a few spells (Snowsight + Sleet storm + entangle should be good enough)
Standing in for the ranged bard: An arrow demon (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20040815b&page=4) with a single level of crusader can do a great arrows of doom impression.
Standing in for the Incantrix: Not sure how to stand in for an optimized caster, as the point of this is to keep things simple. Maybe come up with a single signature spell per level and use that?
DMM Cleric - Maybe a refluffed unicorn?


That being said...if you think you have the DMing ability to control all these characters...I have some sample character builds you might like.
A warweaver (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=222587) might fit your arcane caster requirement.
An A-Game paladin (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=835607) can fit your bard req, or here is a sample bard archer (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=222606) (partial gestalt with a custom "devil fruit" class.

[Tindragon]

Appreciate the feedback!!

I've been managing the entire world since 2000! lol.

Keeping track of the 3-4 NPCs, won't pose much difficulty, once I have them fleshed out. I will PRE level them, and have some subsets of combos listed out (I am a HUGE fan of 3x5 and 4x6 cards with notes, pre determined styles, et al).

Honestly, from back when I used a single reoccurring BBEG, I found it was super easy. I leveled him, had him fleshed out, and he became like a character to me. I knew him inside and out, his personality, et al, and that made doing anything with him, easier than learning a 'new' demon, dragon, whatever 1 off BBEG that I had not run recently or ever before.

Now, if I have 3-4, I don't ALWAYS need to use all of them, it could be that just 1 or 2 of them with some 'mooks' at any time will suffice. And having a full on BBEG party, vs PC party, will not happen often, maybe 1 time early, and then near end game when it's time for a 'final showdown'.

The other thing is my players, even though they tend to run optimized, and win a lot, they often employ EXACT same stratagem. And if they don't win in 1st few rounds, often find themselves hard off and in disarray pulling off a crit, or some other lucky rolls that ultimately save them.

So part of this, is that they will be up against a similar group of foes, who LEARN and re-act, and have an 'out' planned.

So, if the PCs do not adapt, or have alternate plans besides 'win with big booms' in 1st few rounds, they're gonna feel some loss.

I won't design for TPK, but the threat will loom, and the challenge will adjust for them, over and over, with none of the BBEG NPC party looking to take a chance at dying to win, but instead constantly harass and hopefully TEACH the PC/players they need to work as a unit better, rather than a set of optimized characters racing for the killing blow...

I had a campaign 2.5 years back, that we paused. PCs all level 17. smaller party though, half dragon ogre war hulk, human druid (just bad ass), human dmm persist cleric, dragonkin scout. They had taken a side quest for the cleric, to end up against a dwarf Lich wizard (yep) level 20. They encountered the lich, 2 times, and 'defeated him', they literally are walking into the 'final fight' of him, then we had 2 players return, and 1 of the other leave, life happens, before next session, and started a new campaign of characters (the above listed).

The point is, if (when) we get back to that lich fight, the lich is 100% prepared for them and in his lair (well, one of them) and the party has never even TRIED finding his phylactery. This next fight, is designed, by a super INT 2,000 year old level 20 Wizard. He has it laid out per the previous 2 encounters, to WIN. The players know this. However, even IF (and they certainly can) win out, they've no means to find the phylactery where it's at, not just now, they do HAVE the MEANS to find it, but haven't even tried!! And are walking [knowingly] into what could be a TPK fight, because they 'always win'.

Hence, why I want to try this. All my players are long time D&D players, since at least 2e, 2 others beside myself since AD&D (and we'd gone back to old boxes for ****s and giggles) so they are seasoned, and worked together a long time. This is the kind of challenge they should be up for in this long running campaign setting, and campaign chapter where they (both parties) have a fairly wide spread reputation and more than a little fame.

So, the Incantrix, as a generalist, maybe specializing in Transmutation, I like.

All these will be HUMAN fyi. Pure, humans. (36 pt builds, to match PCs)

The druid I think is a must for this, just to put that pain of them knowing this guy will be a beast like their other druid is, and they will have to deal with that near enough.

Bard, I can do with or without, the Bard/arcarch/sublime/abjurant champ is just mean... ranged death and buffs a plenty...

The DMM cleric, I see as the ring leader... maybe a cleric of no deity, just 2 domains (I do use CORE deities, slightly modified to fit world, but 99% core mechanics wise). The cleric is the one, I am most flexible on. But I KNOW clerics well, so maybe the EASIEST for me to run with. I've just never done the DMM quick path, and with EVIL no Pelor/sun extra turns... so I guess I'm looking for the evil equivalent if one exists.

The Druid build I have down, the Bard as well. It's the Incantrix and evil DMM cleric build paths I really would like suggestions on.

[lylsyly]

I have been doing this for a few months now. BBEG is a Red Great Wyrm. Her Bodyguards/Problem Solvers/Bane to my current party are a Red Dragonspawn Duskblade, a DWVK Dragonfire Adept and a human/half red dragon Sorcadin. Only 3 bad guys versus the 5 man party. I keep them leveled up enough to be on the borderline between Very Difficult and Overpowering. I have fun playing them against the party. Who says you can't play/dm at the same time?

[Epic Legand]

I have done this before with great joy. When there are reoccurring villains, then the PC get more invested. Each NPC is a foil to the PCs.. Including the fighter. Having them learn and adapt will be great for your group. As will hitting them hard. They are now of a level to raise dead, not fun, but it works. Also, good for the goose, good for the gander...they can raise their own fallen. Be careful when equipping them, and opposing party with equal wealth eventally turns into dead villians and a party with 2x wealth. Chose items that are not as useful to the party, restricted to a religion, ext. Or be ready to deal with it.
You need a good gish. Try Rouge 1, Sorc 4 Unseen savant 5 to start, have him focus on invisible fighting with a weapon loaded with spell storing. Use a reach weapon and watch you party try to guess the right square to attack :). Have him cast non detection on himself to make it tougher to defeat his invis. Now your NPC have a skill monkey, add some wands with 5 charges each for utility spells. Maybe a whip dagger as the weapon...15' reach is fun.

[Tindragon]

Done.

If you've seen the other threads, you know.

But thanks for all the suggestions.

Decided on

Gish 1W/5DuskB/4AbjC 10th (+1 AC, +9 Eldr Knight to finish off)
Caster 5 W/ 5INcantantix (+5 Incan, then maybe wiz and archmage )
Cleric 10 Clr - DMM quicken. War/Travel (undedicated NE, using Reliquary of Nerull, 1 nightstick, Chr item, and prolly stay straight cleric)

They will summon n buff meat shields, fodder. And have the argyle evil hireling, merc, giant, whatever buffed and harrying the party as needed.

This should be fun. Working out last back story (they're a close nit, take care of each other, even though evil, group)

With all of them having access to teleport, dim door, et al, gonna be hard to tie them down or corner them for a while. Making for a great reoccurring theme.

Any suggestions on CR 10-19 'red shirt' evils they leave for party to deal with, much appreciated!