Mordenkainen's Tome of Meh (At least for Optimizers)

[PeteNutButter]

I try to be a fan boy for D&D books and products as much as possible, as the more these things sell, the longer the edition will stay alive and produce more content. There is however, a limit.

The book like Volo's has player races to make it an enticing buy for players as well as DMs, but unlike Volo's the races are rather lackluster and quite few. There are a total of 5 Sub-races that are new as well as a straight reprint of two others (Why?).

The Shadar-kai are solid and the Eladrin are basically a better drow. The Sea elves are elves with gills, but have nothing special mechanically to speak of.

The Gith are pretty bad. Githzerai is basically awful with point buy. Wisdom and Int is so terrible. Githyanki get cool proficiencies, but the reality is if you want to be a melee wizard you are better off starting with a level of fighter for so many reasons. Medium armor and greatswords? Now you need a 14 dex in addition to your strength, int, and con. There is no practical way to make much use of the race using point buy. Perhaps a str-based arcane trickster? It's another one of those races that makes you jump through hoops to make use of its features, and then you just realize you can do better with just variant human. Maybe just a wizard in half plate?

If a race has no feature that can't be replicated with a feat, than it will inevitably be worse than variant human. Volo's was packed with races with cool and unique features that were signature and powerful. This book just feels like another step backwards.

In addition to the weak and few race options, the book has 115 pages before it gets to the monsters, of which maybe 5 have actual rule content on them. The monsters are I suppose the saving grace, but I haven't had a chance to go through them all yet. That is far too much fluff to content ratio, IMO. Keep in mind this "fluff" is only useful if you are playing in the default setting.

Forgive my rant, I'm just a bit sour and disappointed with the book.

[Specter]

Were people expecting it to have this kind of content? Because I was pretty sure it would be more of a' fluff 'book.

[PeteNutButter]

Were people expecting it to have this kind of content? Because I was pretty sure it would be more of a' fluff 'book.

I expected it to roughly follow the Volo's pattern with a good chunk of fluff and useful content.

[Grear Bylls]

I honestly wanted the book for the lore and monsters. Very helpful for my Out of the Abyss game.

[Theodoxus]

I honestly wanted the book for the lore and monsters. Very helpful for my Out of the Abyss game.

Pretty much this. I don't need more player options, but having official lore for things my players ask about (or have read and then test me on) is what I was looking for.

[Beechgnome]

I try to be a fan boy for D&D books and products as much as possible, as the more these things sell, the longer the edition will stay alive and produce more content. There is however, a limit.

The book like Volo's has player races to make it an enticing buy for players as well as DMs, but unlike Volo's the races are rather lackluster and quite few. There are a total of 5 Sub-races that are new as well as a straight reprint of two others (Why?).

The Shadar-kai are solid and the Eladrin are basically a better drow. The Sea elves are elves with gills, but have nothing special mechanically to speak of.

The Gith are pretty bad. Githzerai is basically awful with point buy. Wisdom and Int is so terrible. Githyanki get cool proficiencies, but the reality is if you want to be a melee wizard you are better off starting with a level of fighter for so many reasons. Medium armor and greatswords? Now you need a 14 dex in addition to your strength, int, and con. There is no practical way to make much use of the race using point buy. Perhaps a str-based arcane trickster? It's another one of those races that makes you jump through hoops to make use of its features, and then you just realize you can do better with just variant human. Maybe just a wizard in half plate?

If a race has no feature that can't be replicated with a feat, than it will inevitably be worse than variant human. Volo's was packed with races with cool and unique features that were signature and powerful. This book just feels like another step backwards.

In addition to the weak and few race options, the book has 115 pages before it gets to the monsters, of which maybe 5 have actual rule content on them. The monsters are I suppose the saving grace, but I haven't had a chance to go through them all yet. That is far too much fluff to content ratio, IMO. Keep in mind this "fluff" is only useful if you are playing in the default setting.

Forgive my rant, I'm just a bit sour and disappointed with the book.

First off, your optimizing guide is required reading. But before you completely right off the Gith, I think you may be short selling them a touch, at least from what I've seen in the preview.

First off, having an invisible mage hand is not nothing; it is a feature previously only available to Arcane Tricksters, and it opens up all sorts of fun schemes for players.

Second, for Githzerai, having shield as a once a day racial spell without needing to dip is pretty sweet, especially, as I think the design intends, for monks.

Their advantage on saving throws is a hybrid of the Halfling bravery and the elf fey ancestry, so yeah, they could have done more with that.

I can see a nature cleric Githzerai with: Str 13 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 16 Cha 8, using shillelagh for melee and medium armor and a shield to tank away.

I can imagine a War Cleric 1/Abjurer X also kicking butt, with: Str 14 Dex 10 Con 13 Int 16 Wis 14 Cha 8.

If there is a criticism for Githzerai (and to me it is legitimate) it's that s are limited. it is very hard to envision a pure martial who isn't a monk, and the one rogue that might work, the arcane trickster, Just had its coolest trick stolen.

But as monks, druids, wizards, clerics and maybe rangers, Githzerai Look fun and useful to me.

[Daithi]

Personally, I'm looking forward to seeing if there are any devils/demons in the new book that are summonable.

[Unoriginal]

So you're saying that the book is rich in lore and ideas for characters and settings, has a lot of monsters, and has character options that'd be chosen for flavor reasons rather than for a marginal advantage through optimization?

It sounds like a 100% positive to me.

[PeteNutButter]

First off, your optimizing guide is required reading. But before you completely right off the Gith, I think you may be short selling them a touch, at least from what I've seen in the preview.

First off, having an invisible mage hand is not nothing; it is a feature previously only available to Arcane Tricksters, and it opens up all sorts of fun schemes for players.

Second, for Githzerai, having shield as a once a day racial spell without needing to dip is pretty sweet, especially, as I think the design intends, for monks.

Their advantage on saving throws is a hybrid of the Halfling bravery and the elf fey ancestry, so yeah, they could have done more with that.

I can see a nature cleric Githzerai with: Str 13 Dex 14 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 16 Cha 8, using shillelagh for melee and medium armor and a shield to tank away.

I can imagine a War Cleric 1/Abjurer X also kicking butt, with: Str 14 Dex 10 Con 13 Int 16 Wis 14 Cha 8.

If there is a criticism for Githzerai (and to me it is legitimate) it's that s are limited. it is very hard to envision a pure martial who isn't a monk, and the one rogue that might work, the arcane trickster, Just had its coolest trick stolen.

But as monks, druids, wizards, clerics and maybe rangers, Githzerai Look fun and useful to me.

There may be uses for the Gith. My reaction was a bit knee jerk, to be honest. They aren't totally horrible. But they aren't a top notch race by any means, and their mechanics are boring and unoriginal. I feel like an extraplanar race like the Gith could have had some really unique features. But alas, no such luck.


So you're saying that the book is rich in lore and ideas for characters and settings, has a lot of monsters, and has character options that'd be chosen for flavor reasons rather than for a marginal advantage through optimization?

It sounds like a 100% positive to me.

Indeed, to each their own.


Personally, I'm looking forward to seeing if there are any devils/demons in the new book that are summonable.

Abyssal Wretch CR 1/4
Bublezau CR 3
Dybbuk CR 4
Armanite CR 7
Maurezhi CR 7

[Eric Diaz]

I'm not a fan of the inevitable power creep that comes with those things... But then again I find most of WotC lore boring as hell... still, I'm probably going to buy it for the monters, I'm just a sucker for more and more monsters.

[Rfkannen]

How good do you think the book is for dms? Especially in the monster department?

[Ogre Mage]

I do not DM, so I was 80% sure I wasn't going to buy this book. After reading Pete's review I am now 99% sure I won't.

[strangebloke]

Just think of it as Monster Manual III: High-Level Campaign version, and call it a day.

[Envyus]

The Githyanki looks like them make good Eldrich Knights. And the Githzerai good monks.

[PeteNutButter]

I do not DM, so I was 80% sure I wasn't going to buy this book. After reading Pete's review I am now 99% sure I won't.


How good do you think the book is for dms? Especially in the monster department?

It has monsters in it, higher level monsters, which continue to be in short supply in 5e. I typically homebrew most of my big bads, but I'll certainly squeeze some of these nasty demons in (if only to justify my purchase). The artwork is stellar, with the demons and whatnot all looking quite nightmarish. I'm particularly fond of the nightmare riding devil. To be fair to it, it has more and better monsters than Volo's had.


Just think of it as Monster Manual III: High-Level Campaign version, and call it a day.

That's about right.

I almost wish that was all it was, though. I'd honestly be happier with my purchase if the book lost 100 pages. I wouldn't miss them. I wouldn't even care if they lowered the price by 10 bucks. It's simply 100 pages of useless crap that will weigh down my bag of books and make it harder to find the stuff that actually matters.

If that sounds harsh, oh well. I like fluff when it's good, but we are 5 editions into D&D. Anything that is in there is either in previous editions' books or is changing something from previous editions books. The 50 pages on elves and halflings might as well be lifted out of my 3.5e Races of the Wild book, the gith content from my planar handbook, the demons from the book of vile darkness, etc.

I just feel like we should be past the point of buying reprinted/reflavored content. Who wants to relearn worldbuilding content? That's like if George R.R. Martin in book 3 just changed the names of all his characters in case people were starting to understand (as opposed to just killing them all). I thought that's why they stopped making campaign setting books. I'd have thought their market research would show there isn't a market for getting the same content with a new edition label.

All this fluff content should be on dndbeyond, freely available for reading and diving in for prospective new players to get into the world. That would drive them to want to play, which would encourage them to buy the books (or beyond content) where the real crunch is.

Seriously just expand this page: https://www.dndbeyond.com/characters/races/halfling

New players could read the short description or the full 10 pages and be like, "That's awesome. I want to buy [that book or that beyond content] and play that race."

That's just my salty 2cp. I would never have got the damned thing if Mordenkainen didn't cast Geas on me to continue my collection of books. The monsters are nice, but I prefer to home-brew my nasties.

[Eric Diaz]

That's about right.

I almost wish that was all it was, though. I'd honestly be happier with my purchase if the book lost 100 pages. I wouldn't miss them. I wouldn't even care if they lowered the price by 10 bucks. It's simply 100 pages of useless crap that will weigh down my bag of books and make it harder to find the stuff that actually matters.

If that sounds harsh, oh well. I like fluff when it's good, but we are 5 editions into D&D. Anything that is in there is either in previous editions' books or is changing something from previous editions books. The 50 pages on elves and halflings might as well be lifted out of my 3.5e Races of the Wild book, the gith content from my planar handbook, the demons from the book of vile darkness, etc.

I just feel like we should be past the point of buying reprinted/reflavored content. Who wants to relearn worldbuilding content? That's like if George R.R. Martin in book 3 just changed the names of all his characters in case people were starting to understand (as opposed to just killing them all). I thought that's why they stopped making campaign setting books. I'd have thought their market research would show there isn't a market for getting the same content with a new edition label.

All this fluff content should be on dndbeyond, freely available for reading and diving in for prospective new players to get into the world. That would drive them to want to play, which would encourage them to buy the books (or beyond content) where the real crunch is.

Seriously just expand this page: https://www.dndbeyond.com/characters/races/halfling

New players could read the short description or the full 10 pages and be like, "That's awesome. I want to buy [that book or that beyond content] and play that race."

That's just my salty 2cp. I would never have got the damned thing if Mordenkainen didn't cast Geas on me to continue my collection of books. The monsters are nice, but I prefer to home-brew my nasties.

Oh man, I feel your pain. Definitely don't need 100 pages on how elves like to climb trees and half-lings like to eat. Volo's was really boring with the "this reace is this way because their god wants it this way" schtick repeated for orcs, goblins, gnolls, hobgoblins, bugbears...

[Tetrasodium]

I'm about a third of the way into reading MToF cover to cover & I know that this is going to surprise some people given how I'm normally quick to blast WotC with both barrels over a lot of the virtual faerun sourcebooks 5e has given us... MToF is very different from the norm and useful to me of all people. Not only that, I like it & the good far outweighs the bad. WotC has outdone themselves & I'm impressed.

There was an article (https://www.polygon.com/2018/5/10/17339208/dungeons-dragons-sourcebook-mordenkainens-tome-of-foes-preview) where a couple of the 15 page section on halflings & gnomes got posted & despite the forgotten realms bias, the book itself is very good. Where a book like the MM will frequently talk about how a creature (ie harpies) was created by so & so god in such and such setting as a result of whatever, they creatures are described more along the lines of wjhat they are like as individuals/a group akin to how a wildlife show might describe how lions interact with each other and/or the world around them.

[Envyus]

Huh Glad you like it.

[Unoriginal]

If that sounds harsh, oh well. I like fluff when it's good, but we are 5 editions into D&D. Anything that is in there is either in previous editions' books or is changing something from previous editions books. The 50 pages on elves and halflings might as well be lifted out of my 3.5e Races of the Wild book, the gith content from my planar handbook, the demons from the book of vile darkness, etc.


No, it might not.

5e is not 3.5. The lore is different, the default setting is different, the expectations are different, the game is different.

Why should all bloody editions be forever held accountable to 3.5 lore? Especially when so much of it was god-damn awful (any game is better for NOT having the Book of Exalted Deeds be relevant to it).

I am incredibly happy that 5e is being its own thing, has its own identity. That's how it should be, not shackled by the past.

Also, "Anything that is in there is either in previous editions' books or is changing something from previous editions books" describes literally everything in every edition of D&D past Chainmail.

As a wise person on the internet said, "originality is just putting old things in new ways". It's what 5e has been doing, and it has been doing so magnificently.

I get that you're disappointed this new book didn't give you what you want out of the game, and it's fair, but come on.

[Tetrasodium]

No, it might not.

5e is not 3.5. The lore is different, the default setting is different, the expectations are different, the game is different.

Why should all bloody editions be forever held accountable to 3.5 lore? Especially when so much of it was god-damn awful (any game is better for NOT having the Book of Exalted Deeds be relevant to it).

I am incredibly happy that 5e is being its own thing, has its own identity. That's how it should be, not shackled by the past.

Also, "Anything that is in there is either in previous editions' books or is changing something from previous editions books" describes literally everything in every edition of D&D past Chainmail.

As a wise person on the internet said, "originality is just putting old things in new ways". It's what 5e has been doing, and has been doing magnificently.

4e did some really stupid things with settings that caused problems for those settings even limiting yiur view to just 4e itself. The end result was that those settings were not really those settings. A lot of 5e core books still followed those bad habits in some ways, mtof metaphorically shifts gears & tone in the text to avoid those bad habits.

A lot of mtof is both familiar as well as told in ways not simply my in an older version

[sky red hunter]

If you don't like the direction 5e is going, then grab your mates and go play 3.5 or 4 or whatever, save your energy and quit griping over what you don't like and embrace what you do.

[Vorpal Crowbar]

Personally, I'm looking forward to seeing if there are any devils/demons in the new book that are summonable.

CR name type
1/4 Abyssal Wretch Demon
1/2 Nupperibo Devil
2 Rutterkin Demon
3 Bulezau Demon
4 Dybbuk Demon
4 Merregon Devil
6 White Abishai Devil
7 Armanite Demon
7 Black Abishai Devil
7 Maurezhi Demon
10 Orthon Devil



I'm glad to see they finally fleshed out Infernal Calling & Summon Lesser/Greater Demon a bit more. I hope many of them are more of the caster/utility type, instead of the brute type.

[Beechgnome]

CR name type
1/4 Abyssal Wretch Demon
1/2 Nupperibo Devil
2 Rutterkin Demon
3 Bulezau Demon
4 Dybbuk Demon
4 Merregon Devil
6 White Abishai Devil
7 Armanite Demon
7 Black Abishai Devil
7 Maurezhi Demon
10 Orthon Devil



I'm glad to see they finally fleshed out Infernal Calling & Summon Lesser/Greater Demon a bit more. I hope many of them are more of the caster/utility type, instead of the brute type.

Yeah the one quibble I pointed out in a previous thread: no CR 1/2 demon means summon lesser demons still doesn't quite work as it should. Unless you just threw refluffed Nupperibos at 'em.

[PeteNutButter]

No, it might not.

5e is not 3.5. The lore is different, the default setting is different, the expectations are different, the game is different.

Why should all bloody editions be forever held accountable to 3.5 lore? Especially when so much of it was god-damn awful (any game is better for NOT having the Book of Exalted Deeds be relevant to it).

I am incredibly happy that 5e is being its own thing, has its own identity. That's how it should be, not shackled by the past.

Also, "Anything that is in there is either in previous editions' books or is changing something from previous editions books" describes literally everything in every edition of D&D past Chainmail.

As a wise person on the internet said, "originality is just putting old things in new ways". It's what 5e has been doing, and it has been doing so magnificently.

I get that you're disappointed this new book didn't give you what you want out of the game, and it's fair, but come on.

My point is that I just don't care to relearn content, even if it's better. If you don't play in the default setting its pointless. In previous editions, If I had no intentions of playing in a setting I could just not buy the campaign setting for Eberron, Faerun, or Dragonlance, etc. In 5e, I get FR stuff crammed into half my book.


If you don't like the direction 5e is going, then grab your mates and go play 3.5 or 4 or whatever, save your energy and quit griping over what you don't like and embrace what you do.

You totally miss the nuance of my complaints, and are basically saying, "You aren't allowed to complain about aspects you don't like." I genuinely appreciate a lot of the content of 5e. The actual content of an edition is the rules structure, otherwise we'd still by playing OD&D.

I'm curious what percentage of players play in the realms, as compared to other settings/homebrew.

[PhoenixPhyre]

In 5e, I get FR stuff crammed into half my book.

I'm curious what percentage of players play in the realms, as compared to other settings/homebrew.

Sigh...not this again. For the last time, FR =/= default 5e. In fact, FR heavily modifies the default.

As someone who only DMs in my own, highly non-standard, setting, I like these types of books. They give me a good source of coherent ideas to mine.

If your first impulse when looking at material is "how can I exploit this for mechanical power" or "That's just fluff so it doesn't matter", 5e is not going to satisfy you. Because that's alien to the whole design. No more importing PrCs or spells that only exist in one setting (yes, that means you, Ruby Knight Vindicators or Knights of the Nine).

[Unoriginal]

My point is that I just don't care to relearn content, even if it's better. If you don't play in the default setting its pointless. In previous editions, If I had no intentions of playing in a setting I could just not buy the campaign setting for Eberron, Faerun, or Dragonlance, etc. In 5e, I get FR stuff crammed into half my book.



You totally miss the nuance of my complaints, and are basically saying, "You aren't allowed to complain about aspects you don't like." I genuinely appreciate a lot of the content of 5e. The actual content of an edition is the rules structure, otherwise we'd still by playing OD&D.

I'm curious what percentage of players play in the realms, as compared to other settings/homebrew.

The Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes is not Forgotten Realms-specific.

[War_lord]

In 5e, I get FR stuff crammed into half my book.

There's been about five different threads where people have gone into exact detail about why this assertion is false. TLDR version: the stuff you're calling "FR" is actually generic 5th edition, and the actual Forgotten Realms setting gets jerked around by WoTC just as much, if not more, then other settings.

This thread just comes off to me as a 3.5 player complaining about 5e not being 3.5.

[Armored Walrus]

I bought my copy on Roll20 specifically to have all the monsters, with tokens attached, at my fingertips, so I'm looking forward to it unlocking at noon today. I'm not sure I'll even get around to reading the player options and the lore stuff for quite awhile. Probably not until one of my players wants to use some of it. But yeah, I thought it was pretty much assumed by the community that this was, at its heart, pretty much a monster manual with some lore.

[KorvinStarmast]

The Gith are pretty bad. Githzerai is basically awful with point buy. 5e wasn't built with multiclassing as the default. I despise power creep; I also found the Volo's PC monsters to be a bad addition to the game. (Aasimar barely were OK, and are a needed antidote to the tiefling (stuff) ).

I preordered, but it won't be delivered until end of month. :smallyuk:

[Armored Walrus]

To be fair, to everyone giving Pete a rough time about his opinion, OP makes it pretty clear what perspective he's reacting from. Of course your opinion will be different if you don't share that perspective. Doesn't mean he's wrong. :P

That being said, I'm surprised, Pete, at your surprise and disappointment, because I thought it was pretty well documented what was going to be in this book. I think the PC options are really only there so that players have options with which to interact with this lore expansion.

[PeteNutButter]

To be fair, to everyone giving Pete a rough time about his opinion, OP makes it pretty clear what perspective he's reacting from. Of course your opinion will be different if you don't share that perspective. Doesn't mean he's wrong. :P

That being said, I'm surprised, Pete, at your surprise and disappointment, because I thought it was pretty well documented what was going to be in this book. I think the PC options are really only there so that players have options with which to interact with this lore expansion.

Thank you. You make a good point as well about expectations. I think I was in denial, and really looking for something to fiddle with as an optimizer.

I did indeed make it clear of my perspective. From an optimizer's point of view the book adds almost nothing worthwhile. My disappointment on that front was strong enough on that to post here, despite the inevitable backlash I expected to receive. Mechanically the gith are very disappointing. Why did they strip the Githzerai of the AC boost? That was something unique for a published race, and was a good balance to make up for the bad stat paring. Most of the others are pretty lackluster and boring. The Eladrin are the only ones that stand out as worth playing.

I feel like they should be beyond publishing races that are on the power level of the dragonborn and PHB tiefling. Variant Human and Half Elf are the tier 1 races mechanically. Several of the Volo's races had enough to put them in that tier in the right build or at least tier 2. These new races are solidly middle ground with the Githzerai in the crap tier. There is no reason they can't make mechanically sound and viable options for the new races. New options will inevitably create power creep, but as long as they keep the new races weaker than v human and Half elf they should be fine.

This bothers me because I care about the fluff though. I like Githzerai. They are an awesome race, but now I'm in a situation where I put myself at a significant mechanical disadvantage if I play it. Now people will say that the difference is insignificant, but I'll assure it's a matter of perspective. I'm sure I'll still play one, because rules #1 and #2 of optimization are have fun and play what you want.

At any rate, I posted another thread trying to make use of the races.

[Beechgnome]

Thank you. You make a good point as well about expectations. I think I was in denial, and really looking for something to fiddle with as an optimizer.

I did indeed make it clear of my perspective. From an optimizer's point of view the book adds almost nothing worthwhile. My disappointment on that front was strong enough on that to post here, despite the inevitable backlash I expected to receive. Mechanically the gith are very disappointing. Why did they strip the Githzerai of the AC boost? That was something unique for a published race, and was a good balance to make up for the bad stat paring. Most of the others are pretty lackluster and boring. The Eladrin are the only ones that stand out as worth playing.

I feel like they should be beyond publishing races that are on the power level of the dragonborn and PHB tiefling. Variant Human and Half Elf are the tier 1 races mechanically. Several of the Volo's races had enough to put them in that tier in the right build or at least tier 2. These new races are solidly middle ground with the Githzerai in the crap tier. There is no reason they can't make mechanically sound and viable options for the new races. New options will inevitably create power creep, but as long as they keep the new races weaker than v human and Half elf they should be fine.

This bothers me because I care about the fluff though. I like Githzerai. They are an awesome race, but now I'm in a situation where I put myself at a significant mechanical disadvantage if I play it. Now people will say that the difference is insignificant, but I'll assure it's a matter of perspective. I'm sure I'll still play one, because rules #1 and #2 of optimization are have fun and play what you want.

At any rate, I posted another thread trying to make use of the races.

Saw the thread. Glad you incorporated some of my gith thoughts in a more pithy (githy?) way.

[Tetrasodium]

To be fair, to everyone giving Pete a rough time about his opinion, OP makes it pretty clear what perspective he's reacting from. Of course your opinion will be different if you don't share that perspective. Doesn't mean he's wrong. :P

That being said, I'm surprised, Pete, at your surprise and disappointment, because I thought it was pretty well documented what was going to be in this book. I think the PC options are really only there so that players have options with which to interact with this lore expansion.

That well documented stuff you mention is a big part of why fans of settings not named "forgotten realms" or the "TotallyNothingLike AndAbsolutelyNotForgottenRealms default setting of forgotten realms" have been freaking out the last month or so. I've been a rather vocal member of that particular angry & horrified riot.. so take that into consideration wjen I say this having finished both skimming and reading it.... I understand his concerns & agree with them, but mtof actually seems to have very much been written with those concerns in mind. That does not mean that I won't cpntinue to crucify WotC if it looks like the sins of earlier 5e books & inexcusable nihtmares of 4e even look like they might be coming back. There are thingas in MToF that "worry" me & I won't like about that (check my sig), but even those worrisome sections are generally useful enough & have enough details about groups as a whole that I don't need to invent cultures and such while stripping away the suddenly tolerable new shade of faerun.

The Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes is not Forgotten Realms-specific.


This is both true and untrue. I know that you consider calling anything much shy of a shelf of full on Salvatore's drizzt novels "forgotten realms" to be heresy of the greatest order, but yes it uses a lot of the baselines of forgotten realms. With that said, they finally dropped the layers of forgotten realms painted over everything down from six to eight coats too many down to just a single light shading a paint chip might call eggshell cream or something else close to being rather neutral & simple.


My point is that I just don't care to relearn content, even if it's better. If you don't play in the default setting its pointless. In previous editions, If I had no intentions of playing in a setting I could just not buy the campaign setting for Eberron, Faerun, or Dragonlance, etc. In 5e, I get FR stuff crammed into half my book.



You totally miss the nuance of my complaints, and are basically saying, "You aren't allowed to complain about aspects you don't like." I genuinely appreciate a lot of the content of 5e. The actual content of an edition is the rules structure, otherwise we'd still by playing OD&D.

I'm curious what percentage of players play in the realms, as compared to other settings/homebrew.



Having read it, it's really not something to "re-learn" that will conflict with what you know & love about $setting, it's more something you can point to and say "It's kind of like that but more $whatever" I run eberron games & have been doing so since it came out & did a better job of conveying what my teenage self was trying to homebrew into a setting of my own. Yes I've gotten a lot better at it over the years, yes wotc smoked a big crackpipe laced with near lethal levels of lsd & who knows what else when they made the 4e eberron... but this book is not something that should concern you. You might want to checkout my sig

[Unoriginal]

I feel like they should be beyond publishing races that are on the power level of the dragonborn and PHB tiefling. Variant Human and Half Elf are the tier 1 races mechanically. Several of the Volo's races had enough to put them in that tier in the right build or at least tier 2.

There is no tier of races in 5e. Unless you go in the microscopic.


There is no reason they can't make mechanically sound and viable options for the new races.

Yes, as they demonstrated with those mechanically sound and viable new races they just published.


New options will inevitably create power creep

No they will not.

Not ever game is 3.X.



This bothers me because I care about the fluff though. I like Githzerai. They are an awesome race, but now I'm in a situation where I put myself at a significant mechanical disadvantage if I play it. Now people will say that the difference is insignificant, but I'll assure it's a matter of perspective.

I seem incapable of seeing why playing a Githzerai will put you at a significant mechanical disadvantage.

Maybe you could try explaining it in detail?

[PeteNutButter]

Having read it, it's really not something to "re-learn" that will conflict with what you know & love about $setting, it's more something you can point to and say "It's kind of like that but more $whatever" I run eberron games & have been doing so since it came out & did a better job of conveying what my teenage self was trying to homebrew into a setting of my own. Yes I've gotten a lot better at it over the years, yes wotc smoked a big crackpipe laced with near lethal levels of lsd & who knows what else when they made the 4e eberron... but this book is not something that should concern you. You might want to checkout my sig

I'm sure I'll make my way through the content at some point. Perhaps sooner after checking out your review.


There is no tier of races in 5e. Unless you go in the microscopic.


If you think that the variant human and the dragonborn are on the same level of power then I don't think it's possible for us to agree on the mechanical viability of the power of races. I'd agree to disagree.

[LordEntrails]

So you're saying that the book is rich in lore and ideas for characters and settings, has a lot of monsters, and has character options that'd be chosen for flavor reasons rather than for a marginal advantage through optimization?

It sounds like a 100% positive to me.
I'm not a fan of optimization. So I'm good with what I've heard about MToF. Worrying about optimizers in writing a new product makes avoiding power creep near impossible. I don't want power creep or "tiers" in my races or classes.

[Armored Walrus]

My copy just unlocked on Roll20 so just perusing. I do note some new rules for cults, which is intriguing, a single new feat for svirfneblin PCs, a couple new magic items. But yeah, this really is a DM book, by and large.

[PeteNutButter]

My copy just unlocked on Roll20 so just perusing. I do note some new rules for cults, which is intriguing, a single new feat for svirfneblin PCs, a couple new magic items. But yeah, this really is a DM book, by and large.

The Svirfneblin feat was already out in EE companion, and has been used in conjunction with the abjurers for easy refilling of the ward with nondetection at will.

[HolyDraconus]

As far as AL is concerned, the player options suck, and the DM options (compared to Xanathars) blow.

[Snowbluff]

No they will not.

Not ever game is 3.X.


3.5 didn't even have power creep. The largest number of powerful options was in the PHB.

[Unoriginal]

3.5 didn't even have power creep. The largest number of powerful options was in the PHB.

Well it had "let's argue this particular meaning/combo to gain an advantage" creep.

[jaappleton]

I am in love with the new Eladrin.

They were already pretty darn good, and now they're better.

Fey Step is no longer Misty Step, so it doesn't get in the way of 'only one spell of first level or higher per turn' rule.

Now Fey Step can do additional effects after level 3.

I love them for Bladelocks, Paladins, and Rogues. Not totally in love with the fact that they're now +1 Charisma, I wish it'd remained versatile with +1 Cha or +1 Int. But I really can't complain too much.

Aside from the Eladrin? As far as I'm concerned, regarding player options, the rest of the book is trash. And that's such a shame, as I LOVE the Githzerai lore-wise, but it should've been a different stat boost. +1 Int, +1 Wis, +1 Dex, like in the style of the Triton, would've been MUCH better for them.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Well it had "let's argue this particular meaning/combo to gain an advantage" creep.

Option creep, when more options means more power (spells, monsters to summon, items, feats, etc) is power creep even if the individual things aren't any more powerful. Bring able to splat dive enables a lot of things when every piece interacts with every other.

5e has less of that, both because there's less such content and because the interaction between items is more controlled.

[PeteNutButter]

Aside from the Eladrin? As far as I'm concerned, regarding player options, the rest of the book is trash. And that's such a shame, as I LOVE the Githzerai lore-wise, but it should've been a different stat boost. +1 Int, +1 Wis, +1 Dex, like in the style of the Triton, would've been MUCH better for them.

That is EXACTLY what I thought. The 3 stat boosting from Triton would have gone perfectly for the Githzerai, since they had the subrace give +2. They should really use the 3 stat boosting more. Half Elfs get a total of 4 points, so it's not unheard of.

[Armored Walrus]

That is EXACTLY what I thought. The 3 stat boosting from Triton would have gone perfectly for the Githzerai, since they had the subrace give +2. They should really use the 3 stat boosting more. Half Elfs get a total of 4 points, so it's not unheard of.

Hell, humans get 6. :)

[PeteNutButter]

Hell, humans get 6. :)

I'd be ok with another race giving something like +1 str, int, wis, and cha. Anything more than four stats, or more than two physical ones would be stepping on the poor human toes too much.