Class/Build Comparison Thread

[AnimeTheCat]

So, a thread was started here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?557800-Are-full-casting-progression-and-high-tier-characters-overrated) which evolved into me and a few others want to do build/class comparisons, so I made a new thread for that. Specifically, the first I'm going to do is compare level 8 builds against each other with the goal in mind to compare primary melee combat roles. ColorBlindNinja has offered to build something for it (can't recall if cleric or druid) and I'm building a barbarian and fighter.

Personally, I don't use flaws and I use 25 PB, but In your builds feel free to do whatever you like. I like to try and isolate classes so I stick to PHB races as well. Again, that limitation doesn't apply to everything.

Builds should include all WBL appropriate gear for the target level. As WBL is directly tied to all characters level, it should be included in finished products.

If anyone knows how, I would like to try and keep this updated with build numbers side by side.

1. Level 8 "fighter*" role comparison
- AnimeTheCat (Baseline, Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker, Fighter)
- ColorBlindNinja (Druid, Cleric)
- Falontani (Rogue)
- Kelb_Panthera (something non-caster)
- Lans (Halfling Barbarian 2/Fighter 4, Warforged Wizard/Spellsword)




Build
Abilty Scores (S/D/C/I/W/C/)
Saves (F/R/W)
Armor Class (AC/TAC/FFAC)
HP
Init
Speed
Space/Reach
Full Attack
Buff Spells
Magic Items
Feats
Tactics


Baseline - Half-Orc Barbarian 8
22(26R)/14/14(18R)/8/12/6
+10(+12R)/+6/+5(+7R)
20(18R)/13(11R)/18(16R)
73(89R)
+2
30 ft
5ft/5ft
+1 Shocking Greataxe +15/+10(+17/+12R) - 1d12+10(+13R) OR +1 Composite Longbow (+5 Str) +11/+6 - 1d8+6
None
+1 Breastplate, Amulet of Natural Armor +1, Ring of Protection +1, Gauntlets of Ogre Power, Cloak of Resistance +2
Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave



Falontoni Human Rogue 8
Abilty Scores (S/D/C/I/W/C/)
Saves (F/R/W)
Armor Class (AC/TAC/FFAC)
HP
Init
Speed
Space/Reach
Full Attack
Buff Spells
Magic Items
Feats
Tactics





*fighter in this case isn't the class but the function of the class, that is, to put the pointy end in the enemy.

Multiple people can build the same class, no two builds are gonna be the same.

If you have any other classes or builds you want to compare, post it and I'll keep track of who's building for what.

Here's how I suggest compiling builds:

Race:
Class(s):


Strength
Str Score
Intelligence
Int Score
Fortitude Save
Save Value
Armor Class
AC Score
HP
HP Value


Dexterity
Dex Score
Wisdom
Wis Score
Reflex Save
Save Value
Touch Armor Class
TAC Value
Initiative
Initiative Score


Constitution
Con Score
Charisma
Cha Score
Will Save
Save Value
Flat-Footed Armor Class
FFAC Value
Speed
Land Speed/Movement Mode and Speed





Attack
Weapon
Atttack Bonus
Damage
Crit
Range


Attack
Weapon
Atttack Bonus
Damage
Crit
Range


Attack
Weapon
Atttack Bonus
Damage
Crit
Range


Full Attack
Weapon(s)
Atttack Bonus(es)
Damage(s)
Crit
Range





Equipment/Item
Cost
WBL Start (i.e. 27,000 at Lvl 8)


















































Skill
Score
Ranks
Ability Modifier
Miscilaneous Modifiers




































































Spell Level
Spell Name
Number Prepared

















































Spells Per Day


Spell Level
Spells Per Day







































Spells Known


Spell Level
Spell Name








































Feats:

[ColorBlindNinja]

Unless anyone else has a preference for the Druid, I'll take that one.

EDIT: I can do the Cleric too if no one else wants to.

[AnimeTheCat]

Unless anyone else has a preference for the Druid, I'll take that one.

EDIT: I can do the Cleric too if no one else wants to.

Put an edit in above. More than one person can build the same class, so you can and should build both. Especially since you've taken such an interest, which I appreciate.

[Falontani]

I can take rogue.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Put an edit in above. More than one person can build the same class, so you can and should build both. Especially since you've taken such an interest, which I appreciate.

Got it. I'm reading Eggnack's Druid Handbook as we speak (er, post). :smallsmile:

[AnimeTheCat]

Once builds are posted I'll compile them in a chart and post so the numbers can be side-by-side, then link the post to the build reference and turn the first post into a table of contents.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Once builds are posted I'll compile them in a chart and post so the numbers can be side-by-side, then link the post to the build reference and turn the first post into a table of contents.

You might want to post a link to this thread in the: "Are full casting progression and high tier characters overrated?" thread.

[AnimeTheCat]

You might want to post a link to this thread in the: "Are full casting progression and high tier characters overrated?" thread.

Good call..

[ColorBlindNinja]

Good call..

Do you want me to do it or do you want to?

[AnimeTheCat]

I did it, just slow about it.

[Falontani]

14 str
14 dex
9 con
14 Int
8 Wis
14 Cha




Lvl

Class

Base Attack Bonus

Fort Save

Ref Save

Will Save

Skills

Feats

Class Features


1

Human Rogue

+0

+0

+2

+0

Hide +4, Move Silently +4, Disguise +4, Balance +4, Bluff +4, Spot +4, Listen +4, Use Magic Device +4, Tumble +4, Escape Artist +4, Sleight of Hand +4

Aberration Bloodline, Willing Deformity, Willing Deformity Tall, Inhuman Reach, Shaky, Vulnerable, Aggressive

Mimic, Sneak Attack +1d6



2

Rogue

+1

+0

+3

+1

Hide +5, Move Silently +5, Disguise +5, Balance +5, Bluff +5, Spot +5, Listen +5, Use Magic Device +5, Tumble +5, Escape Artist +5, Sleight of Hand +5


Evasion



3

Rogue

+2

+1

+3

+1

Hide +6, Move Silently +6, Disguise +6, Balance +5, Bluff +6, Spot +6, Listen +6, Use Magic Device +6, Tumble +6, Escape Artist +6, Sleight of Hand +5, Assume Quirk

Extended Reach

Sneak Attack +2d6, Penetrating Strike



4

Rogue

+3

+1

+4

+1

Hide +7, Move Silently +7, Disguise +7, Balance +5, Bluff +7, Spot +7, Listen +7, Use Magic Device +7, Tumble +7, Escape Artist +7, Sleight of Hand +5, Assume Quirk, Listen to This


Uncanny Dodge



5

Rogue

+3

+1

+4

+1

Hide +8, Move Silently +8, Disguise +8, Balance +6, Bluff +8, Spot +8, Listen +8, Use Magic Device +8, Tumble +8, Escape Artist +8, Sleight of Hand +6, Assume Quirk, Listen to This


Sneak Attack +3d6



6

Rogue

+4

+2

+5

+2

Hide +9, Move Silently +9, Disguise +9, Balance +6, Bluff +9, Spot +9, Listen +9, Use Magic Device +9, Tumble +9, Escape Artist +9, Sleight of Hand +6, Assume Quirk, Listen to This, Easy Escape

Craven




7

Rogue

+5

+2

+5

+2

Hide +10, Move Silently +10, Disguise +10, Balance +7, Bluff +10, Spot +10, Listen +10, Use Magic Device +10, Tumble +10, Escape Artist +10, Sleight of Hand +7, Assume Quirk, Listen to This, Easy Escape


Sneak Attack +4d6



8

Rogue

+6

+2

+6

+2

Hide +11, Move Silently +11, Disguise +11, Balance +7, Bluff +11, Spot +11, Listen +11, Use Magic Device +11, Tumble +11, Escape Artist +11, Sleight of Hand +7, Assume Quirk, Listen to This, Easy Escape, Escape Attack


Improved Uncanny Dodge





You are a Human Rogue who uses a spear. You have Mimic + a great disguise check to allow you to infiltrate, add in your bluff and your good at lying. You look normal even with your “deformities”. If someone tries to pin you down you have a +10 escape artist at level 1. Your strategy is catching someone off guard by stabbing them with a spear from 25 ft away. That is your reach. You never fight when you are outnumbered. When you do fight you deal 5d6+10 damage with a stab to the flat footed person.. Since you’ll only be taking standard action attacks you will use tumble to move away. In another level you’ll grab combat reflexes to make it really painful to come near you. You play the coward. Stabbing only when it benefits you. Your long limbs will also allow you to pick pockets from 20 feet away. You can scout for the party, but you’d prefer not to. Remember that you are a medium creature, but you can appear as a large one. So easy disguises as Humans, dwarves, elves, orcs, hobgoblins, bugbears, and more. Slightly less easy to disguise yourself as an ogre but still plausible. This character could very easily remain pure, however a single level dip into swordsage for +2d6 sneak attack would be awesome, and dipping in other classes/prestiges to gain more sneak attack is what you should focus on. Str, Dex, and Int are your main stats. Your first level up goes into constitution so you dont have a penalty, however your other level ups will probably go into str.





I hope I did what you were asking right?

[eggynack]

Not sure it's exactly what you want, cause it decidedly does not personally punch opponents, but that build I was talking about with the fighter crushing crocodiles was actually level 8, so I'ma be lazy and just post that.

Here's Orcy (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=431618), the 8th level druid. Generally the idea is to summon some quantity of massive beatsticks and toss out some spells depending on need. Oh, and not dying is part of the idea too. I think this might have been before I found out that desmodu bats get blindsense instead of blindsight, so it could make sense to swap enhance wild shape with friendly fire or something. Blindsense is nice though. Wind at back was, I think, for a specific purpose, so that probably swaps for friendly fire first. Also, I think the 0's are 1's that I, y'know, used. They're also buffs, so they get tossed on at the beginning of the day.

Anyway, here's Jake the Dinosaur (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=432745), Orcy's animal companion. Also, have a fancy giant crocodile, which serves as a relatively frequent summon, though decidedly not the only one.

[AnimeTheCat]

14 str
14 dex
9 con
14 Int
8 Wis
14 Cha




Lvl

Class

Base Attack Bonus

Fort Save

Ref Save

Will Save

Skills

Feats

Class Features


1

Human Rogue

+0

+0

+2

+0

Hide +4, Move Silently +4, Disguise +4, Balance +4, Bluff +4, Spot +4, Listen +4, Use Magic Device +4, Tumble +4, Escape Artist +4, Sleight of Hand +4

Aberration Bloodline, Willing Deformity, Willing Deformity Tall, Inhuman Reach, Shaky, Vulnerable, Aggressive

Mimic, Sneak Attack +1d6



2

Rogue

+1

+0

+3

+1

Hide +5, Move Silently +5, Disguise +5, Balance +5, Bluff +5, Spot +5, Listen +5, Use Magic Device +5, Tumble +5, Escape Artist +5, Sleight of Hand +5


Evasion



3

Rogue

+2

+1

+3

+1

Hide +6, Move Silently +6, Disguise +6, Balance +5, Bluff +6, Spot +6, Listen +6, Use Magic Device +6, Tumble +6, Escape Artist +6, Sleight of Hand +5, Assume Quirk

Extended Reach

Sneak Attack +2d6, Penetrating Strike



4

Rogue

+3

+1

+4

+1

Hide +7, Move Silently +7, Disguise +7, Balance +5, Bluff +7, Spot +7, Listen +7, Use Magic Device +7, Tumble +7, Escape Artist +7, Sleight of Hand +5, Assume Quirk, Listen to This


Uncanny Dodge



5

Rogue

+3

+1

+4

+1

Hide +8, Move Silently +8, Disguise +8, Balance +6, Bluff +8, Spot +8, Listen +8, Use Magic Device +8, Tumble +8, Escape Artist +8, Sleight of Hand +6, Assume Quirk, Listen to This


Sneak Attack +3d6



6

Rogue

+4

+2

+5

+2

Hide +9, Move Silently +9, Disguise +9, Balance +6, Bluff +9, Spot +9, Listen +9, Use Magic Device +9, Tumble +9, Escape Artist +9, Sleight of Hand +6, Assume Quirk, Listen to This, Easy Escape

Craven




7

Rogue

+5

+2

+5

+2

Hide +10, Move Silently +10, Disguise +10, Balance +7, Bluff +10, Spot +10, Listen +10, Use Magic Device +10, Tumble +10, Escape Artist +10, Sleight of Hand +7, Assume Quirk, Listen to This, Easy Escape


Sneak Attack +4d6



8

Rogue

+6

+2

+6

+2

Hide +11, Move Silently +11, Disguise +11, Balance +7, Bluff +11, Spot +11, Listen +11, Use Magic Device +11, Tumble +11, Escape Artist +11, Sleight of Hand +7, Assume Quirk, Listen to This, Easy Escape, Escape Attack


Improved Uncanny Dodge





You are a Human Rogue who uses a spear. You have Mimic + a great disguise check to allow you to infiltrate, add in your bluff and your good at lying. You look normal even with your “deformities”. If someone tries to pin you down you have a +10 escape artist at level 1. Your strategy is catching someone off guard by stabbing them with a spear from 25 ft away. That is your reach. You never fight when you are outnumbered. When you do fight you deal 5d6+10 damage with a stab to the flat footed person.. Since you’ll only be taking standard action attacks you will use tumble to move away. In another level you’ll grab combat reflexes to make it really painful to come near you. You play the coward. Stabbing only when it benefits you. Your long limbs will also allow you to pick pockets from 20 feet away. You can scout for the party, but you’d prefer not to. Remember that you are a medium creature, but you can appear as a large one. So easy disguises as Humans, dwarves, elves, orcs, hobgoblins, bugbears, and more. Slightly less easy to disguise yourself as an ogre but still plausible. This character could very easily remain pure, however a single level dip into swordsage for +2d6 sneak attack would be awesome, and dipping in other classes/prestiges to gain more sneak attack is what you should focus on. Str, Dex, and Int are your main stats. Your first level up goes into constitution so you dont have a penalty, however your other level ups will probably go into str.





I hope I did what you were asking right?

For the most part yeah, but you didn't include any equipment. I'm sure your gear plays a roll in you putting the pointy end of your weapon in the bad guy.

EDIT: When I'm not on mobile I'll set up a template to make things easier in the future.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I'm putting together a Druid build, an anthropomorphic bat.

I shall call him... Batman.

[AnimeTheCat]

I'm putting together a Druid build, an anthropomorphic bat.

I shall call him... Batman.

:applause: truly, a most original and fitting name.

[ColorBlindNinja]

:applause: truly, a most original and fitting name.

Well, it was either Batman or Manbat. I chose to go with the guy who dresses up in tights and beats up criminals with his bare hands.

[Falontani]

For the most part yeah, but you didn't include any equipment. I'm sure your gear plays a roll in you putting the pointy end of your weapon in the bad guy.

EDIT: When I'm not on mobile I'll set up a template to make things easier in the future.

uh oh, equipment? That is the bane of my existence!

[mabriss lethe]

Well, it was either Batman or Manbat. I chose to go with the guy who dresses up in tights and beats up criminals with his bare hands.

Batmanuel!

http://www.syfy.com/sites/syfy/files/styles/1140x640/public/2018/01/batmanuel.jpg?itok=1YQ-xiMs

I rest my cape.

[Kelb_Panthera]

So, a thread was started here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?557800-Are-full-casting-progression-and-high-tier-characters-overrated) which evolved into me and a few others want to do build/class comparisons, so I made a new thread for that. Specifically, the first I'm going to do is compare level 8 builds against each other with the goal in mind to compare primary melee combat roles. ColorBlindNinja has offered to build something for it (can't recall if cleric or druid) and I'm building a barbarian and fighter.

Personally, I don't use flaws and I use 25 PB, but In your builds feel free to do whatever you like. I like to try and isolate classes so I stick to PHB races as well. Again, that limitation doesn't apply to everything.

If anyone knows how, I would like to try and keep this updated with build numbers side by side.

1. Level 8 "fighter*" role comparison
- AnimeTheCat (Barbarian/Fighter)
- ColorBlindNinja (Druid/Cleric)
- Falontani (Rogue)

*fighter in this case isn't the class but the function of the class, that is, to put the pointy end in the enemy.

Multiple people can build the same class, no two builds are gonna be the same.

If you have any other classes or builds you want to compare, post it and I'll keep track of who's building for what.

Two things. Restricting to PHB races -really- hurts the non-caster side and the absence of WBL appropriate gear does the same. Roles aren't filled by classes, they're filled by whole characters and that includes race and gear.

I'll see about putting something together over the next few days. Definitely non-caster.

[AnimeTheCat]

Two things. Restricting to PHB races -really- hurts the non-caster side and the absence of WBL appropriate gear does the same. Roles aren't filled by classes, they're filled by whole characters and that includes race and gear.

I'll see about putting something together over the next few days. Definitely non-caster.

WBL is included, and race choice has no actual bearing on a class or how it functions. To my knowledge there are no base classes that require a specific race.

You can showcase whatever you want, my standards for myself are to restrict as much non class and character level relevant information, namely flaws, ability scores, and races. Thus, for myself, a class can be well showcased in the absence of those three factors.

If you want to showcase a particular build that utilizes a particular trick or function, showcase it by all means. That's what this thread is for. Showcasing builds to see what we can look at side by side, by the numbers.

I will edit the OP to include a line about the inclusion of WBL.

For an alternative comparison, I would be interested in seeing just how early a caster starts fighting, that is putting the pointy end in the enemy, better than a mundane martial character.

[Lans]

Quick halfing build, I saw the venomfire fleshraker, and thought, man that is cheesey, a martial character isn't going to be able to compete with that, then I had a little a ha moment.

I'm not sure the wbl for 8th, but I think its 27k. I would of added warblade levels, but you know the whole exp penalty thing. Would be better if I added boots of speed.

https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1587422

[eggynack]

Y'know what's weird is I never actually put venomfire on my spell list. I guess I thought it was too stupid. So, if you're cool with venomfire, then imagine Jake also having venomfire. Not like it takes too much away from the build. Wind wall isn't the best, least when friendly fire is on your list, so that's probably what'd get dropped.

[Lans]

You have venomfire between whispering sand and stone shape.

Edit never mind I misunderstood your formating

Fleshraker is a 4th level animal companion that seems like its stronger than the 7th level Deinonychus

[eggynack]

You have venomfire between whispering sand and stone shape.

Edit never mind I misunderstood your formating
Yeah, wasn't being used, but I did miss seeing it. I tend to toss anything even vaguely plausible onto my wider list.



Fleshraker is a 4th level animal companion that seems like its stronger than the 7th level Deinonychus
Pretty much. Worse HP, better AC, slightly less to-hit, a bit less damage, and you get poison, tripping and grappling. Ridiculous stuff.

[Lans]

Yeah, wasn't being used, but I did miss seeing it. I tend to toss anything even vaguely plausible onto my wider list.


Pretty much. Worse HP, better AC, slightly less to-hit, a bit less damage, and you get poison, tripping and grappling. Ridiculous stuff.

Its to hit isn't really less though, it has 2 attacks that are primary vs the 1 for the other dino

[AnimeTheCat]

Quick halfing build, I saw the venomfire fleshraker, and thought, man that is cheesey, a martial character isn't going to be able to compete with that, then I had a little a ha moment.

I'm not sure the wbl for 8th, but I think its 27k. I would of added warblade levels, but you know the whole exp penalty thing. Would be better if I added boots of speed.

https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1587422

I'll have to take a look at it and port it over to a table for comparison later. Just to confirm, it is a level 8 Durid? I can't get to Myth-Weavers at this time to check for myself.

I know that we're going to see big numbers from both the Animal Companions and Druids (with and without Wild Shape), but that's kind of the point is to actually see the numbers side-by-side for all of the various different thoughts and arguments that everyone is making one way or other.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I'll have to take a look at it and port it over to a table for comparison later. Just to confirm, it is a level 8 Durid? I can't get to Myth-Weavers at this time to check for myself.

No, it's a Barbarian 2/Fighter 4.

[AnimeTheCat]

No, it's a Barbarian 2/Fighter 4.

Oh, a halfling Barbarian 2/Fighter 4? That sounds like fun. I love playing little guys with anger issues.

[RaiKirah]

Are prestige classes allowed in these builds? So far they seem to have been avoided, but was that by choice or requirement?

[Lans]

Are prestige classes allowed in these builds? So far they seem to have been avoided, but was that by choice or requirement?

I think they are allowed, gishes are a thing

[AnimeTheCat]

Are prestige classes allowed in these builds? So far they seem to have been avoided, but was that by choice or requirement?


I think they are allowed, gishes are a thing

Prestige Classes are totally a thing, I guess they've just been avoided by choice. Multi-classing is a thing too.

Honestly, this first comparison (labled 1 in the OP) is about how good you can be at putting the pointy end in the enemy at level 8. That can be a combination of Monk/Fighter if you so desire or it can be a pure Rogue (as presented earlier), or warblade, or cleric, or druid. There's not really any "rules" so to speak. What I listed in the OP were the standards I was sticking to because I felt as though it isolated the actual class vs a build. You can, however, just build whatever's clever. I'm considering a very mild gish as a garnish to the Fighter and Barbarian i'm putting together.

Also, there's no "winning" here either. Builds aren't being evaluated, except maybe by peers to point out minor changes that could improve them. Otherwise, this is really so that benchmarks can be made for power comparisons and I think that over time it could serve as a pretty solid resource for new players and DMs to judge what power level their games are at or where they want their games to be, but that's probably wishful thinking on my end.

[Karl Aegis]

Gnome Fighter 8
CG Alignment


18 Strength (+2 from level ups, +2 Enhancement; Base 14)
12 Dexterity
16 Constitution
8 Intellect
13 Wisdom
8 Charisma



Fighter Bonus Feats:
Exotic Weapon Proficiency (Greatspear)
Weapon Focus (Greatspear)
Weapon Specialization (Greatspear)
Power Attack
Melee Weapon Mastery (Piercing)

Feats:
Cloak of the Obyrith
Demonic Skin
Eyes of the Abyss



+1 Vicious Greatspear
+1 Light Fortification Full Plate
Amulet of Natural Armor +2
Ring of Protection +1
Gauntlets of Ogre Power
Cloak of Resistance +1
1500 Gold of consumables



+17/+12
1d10+2d6+11 Damage Crit x3
72 Hit Points
26 AC
DR 3/lawful
+10 Fort +4 Ref +4 Will saves
Low-light Vision
Darkvision 30 feet
15 Speed (x3 Run)


I think I did this right. This gnome feels like it can use a vicious weapon because it's damage reduction reduces the damage it takes from 1-6 to 0-3. 0-2 if you're feeling cheesy with alchemical silver weapons.

[AnimeTheCat]

Ok, life has a habit of getting lifey when I wanna do something fun.

As someone recommended in the other thread, I'm going to include pregen characters from PHB II as baseline or control builds.

I should have my builds up this weekend.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Ok, life has a habit of getting lifey when I wanna do something fun.

As someone recommended in the other thread, I'm going to include pregen characters from PHB II as baseline or control builds.

I should have my builds up this weekend.

My Druid should be done by this weekend, as well. Or Monday, if something comes up.

[Quertus]

I don't really post my actually builds online. So I'm not here to "win" - I'm here to lose! To demonstrate how horrible 3e is at balance, and how difficult to optimize certain ideas are.

I'll post a few characters, just for fun, depending on how much time I have. Here's the start of one:


Race: Troll
Class(s): none


Strength
34
Intelligence
4
Fortitude Save
10
Armor Class
18
HP
54


Dexterity
18
Wisdom
6
Reflex Save
5
Touch Armor Class
13
Initiative
+8


Constitution
22
Charisma
4
Will Save
-1
Flat-Footed Armor Class
14
Speed
30'





Attack
Claw
+15
1d6+13
20/x2
10' reach


Attack
Claw
+15
1d6+13
20/x2
10' reach


Attack
Bite
+10
1d6+7
Crit
Range


Full Attack
Weapon(s)
Atttack Bonus(es)
Damage(s)
Crit
Range



Att +15 = 3(BAB) + 12(Str) + 1(Enc) + -1 (size)
AC 18 = 10(base) + 5(NAC) + 4(dex) + -1(size)



Equipment/Item
Cost
WBL Start (i.e. 27,000 at Lvl 8)


(that thing to make all natural weapons +1 - Amulet of Mighty Fists, maybe?)




(something for flight)




Belt of Strength





































Skill
Score
Ranks
Ability Modifier
Miscilaneous Modifiers


Lucid Dreaming

4.0































































Spell Level
Spell Name
Number Prepared

















































Spells Per Day


Spell Level
Spells Per Day







































Spells Known


Spell Level
Spell Name








































Feats: Improved Initiative

Overview: Yiiksuv is designed to work in a party. In practice, he's a horrible "tank": he takes point, monsters hit him, he drops, and then spend the encounter unconscious while the party deals with the threat.

[ColorBlindNinja]

I don't really post my actually builds online. So I'm not here to "win" - I'm here to lose! To demonstrate how horrible 3e is at balance, and how difficult to optimize certain ideas are.

I'll post a few characters, just for fun, depending on how much time I have. Here's the start of one:


Race: Troll
Class(s): none


Strength
34
Intelligence
4
Fortitude Save
10
Armor Class
18
HP
54


Dexterity
18
Wisdom
6
Reflex Save
5
Touch Armor Class
13
Initiative
+8


Constitution
22
Charisma
4
Will Save
-1
Flat-Footed Armor Class
14
Speed
30'





Attack
Claw
+15
1d6+13
20/x2
10' reach


Attack
Claw
+15
1d6+13
20/x2
10' reach


Attack
Bite
+10
1d6+7
Crit
Range


Full Attack
Weapon(s)
Atttack Bonus(es)
Damage(s)
Crit
Range



Att +15 = 3(BAB) + 12(Str) + 1(Enc) + -1 (size)
AC 18 = 10(base) + 5(NAC) + 4(dex) + -1(size)



Equipment/Item
Cost
WBL Start (i.e. 27,000 at Lvl 8)


(that thing to make all natural weapons +1 - Amulet of Mighty Fists, maybe?)




(something for flight)




Belt of Strength





































Skill
Score
Ranks
Ability Modifier
Miscilaneous Modifiers


Lucid Dreaming

4.0































































Spell Level
Spell Name
Number Prepared

















































Spells Per Day


Spell Level
Spells Per Day







































Spells Known


Spell Level
Spell Name








































Feats: Improved Initiative

Overview: Yiiksuv is designed to work in a party. In practice, he's a horrible "tank": he takes point, monsters hit him, he drops, and then spend the encounter unconscious while the party deals with the threat.


I hear a Necklace of Natural Attacks (from Savage Species) is useful for characters that fight unarmed.

[Quertus]

I hear a Necklace of Natural Attacks (from Savage Species) is useful for characters that fight unarmed.

That might be the one I need - I can never keep those things straight. I'll check it out when I'm not afb. Thanks!

[AnimeTheCat]

I don't really post my actually builds online. So I'm not here to "win" - I'm here to lose! To demonstrate how horrible 3e is at balance, and how difficult to optimize certain ideas are.

I'll post a few characters, just for fun, depending on how much time I have. Here's the start of one:


Race: Troll
Class(s): none


Strength
34
Intelligence
4
Fortitude Save
10
Armor Class
18
HP
54


Dexterity
18
Wisdom
6
Reflex Save
5
Touch Armor Class
13
Initiative
+8


Constitution
22
Charisma
4
Will Save
-1
Flat-Footed Armor Class
14
Speed
30'





Attack
Claw
+15
1d6+13
20/x2
10' reach


Attack
Claw
+15
1d6+13
20/x2
10' reach


Attack
Bite
+10
1d6+7
Crit
Range


Full Attack
Weapon(s)
Atttack Bonus(es)
Damage(s)
Crit
Range



Att +15 = 3(BAB) + 12(Str) + 1(Enc) + -1 (size)
AC 18 = 10(base) + 5(NAC) + 4(dex) + -1(size)



Equipment/Item
Cost
WBL Start (i.e. 27,000 at Lvl 8)


(that thing to make all natural weapons +1 - Amulet of Mighty Fists, maybe?)




(something for flight)




Belt of Strength





































Skill
Score
Ranks
Ability Modifier
Miscilaneous Modifiers


Lucid Dreaming

4.0































































Spell Level
Spell Name
Number Prepared

















































Spells Per Day


Spell Level
Spells Per Day







































Spells Known


Spell Level
Spell Name








































Feats: Improved Initiative

Overview: Yiiksuv is designed to work in a party. In practice, he's a horrible "tank": he takes point, monsters hit him, he drops, and then spend the encounter unconscious while the party deals with the threat.


Was it easy enough to use those table templates to plug your information in to? I tried to make it relatively fill in the blank in functionality.

[Quertus]

Was it easy enough to use those table templates to plug your information in to? I tried to make it relatively fill in the blank in functionality.

Eh. I was working from a phone, so everything's horrible...

EDIT: I think it makes it a lot prettier than if I'd just spewed out some text.

[ColorBlindNinja]

All right, the only thing left to do for my Druid is his Wild Shape form, animal companion and gear. I should be done sometime tomorrow, and then I'll post it.

EDIT: Druid's done.



“I am the terror that flaps in the night!”

Druid 8

Alignment: Neutral Good

Speed: Fly 30’, Land 15’ (Hunting Bat: Fly 70’ (good). Land 30’) (Fleshraker: 60’)

72 HP


(32 PB):
STR: 4 (-3) (Hunting Bat: 15 (+2)) (Fleshraker: 19 (+4))
DEX: 8 (-1) (Hunting Bat: 26 (+8) (Fleshraker: 19 (+4))
CON: 18 (+4) (Hunting Bat: 13 (+1)) (Fleshraker: 15 (+2))
INT: 12 (+1)
WIS: 24 (+7)
CHA: 8 (-1)


AC: 10 (Hunting Bat: 21, touch 18, flat-footed 13) (Fleshraker: 20, touch 14, flat-footed 16)

Initiative: +8 (Hunting Bat: +17) (Fleshraker: +13)


BAB: +6/+1
Grapple: +2
Melee Attack: +4/-1 (Hunting Bat: +8/+4) (Fleshraker: +10/+6) (+3 to one natural weapon)
Fleshraker Pounce: 2 claws +11 melee (1d6+4 plus poison & 8d6 acid) and tail +3 melee (1d6+2 plus poison & 8d6 acid)
Ranged Attack: +6/+1 (Hunting Bat: +14/+9) (Fleshraker: +10/+5)


Saving Throws:
FORT: +12 (Hunting Bat: +9) (Fleshraker: +10)
REF: +3 (Hunting Bat: +12) (Fleshraker: +8)
WILL: +15


Skills:
Concentration: +15
Handle Animal: +10
Knowledge Nature: +14
Spellcraft: +12
Spot: +18


Animal Companion (Fleshraker)
Nature Sense
Wild Empathy
Woodland Stride
Trackless Step
Resist Nature’s Lure
Wild Shape (Large, 3/day)



Improved Initiative
(Flaw: Fussy) Mourning Mutate
(Flaws: Love of Nature) Greenbound Summoning
Companion Spellbond
Natural Spell



0: 6
1st: 6
2nd: 5
3rd: 5
4th: 3



0: Detect Magic, Know Direction, Detect Poison, Create Water, Cure Minor, Mending
1st: Produce Flame x3, Raptor’s Sight (cast), Snowshoes (cast), Traveler’s Mount (cast)
2nd: Blinding Spittle, Luminous Armor (Cast), Heart of Air (Cast), Splinterbolt, Lesser Restoration
3rd: Heart of Water (Cast), Magic Fang Greater (Cast), Primal Instinct (Cast), Venomfire (Cast), Sleet Storm
4th: Enhance Wild Shape (Cast), Friendly Fire, Boreal Wind



- Wilding Clasp x3 (12,000 GP)
- Periapt of Wisdom (4,000 GP)
- Rod of Extend Lesser (3,000 GP)
- Pearl of Speech (600 GP)
- Wand of Lesser Vigor (750 GP)
- Chronocharm of the Uncaring Archmage (500 GP)
- Shapesand (100 GP)
- Cloak of Resistance +2 (4,000 GP)
2,050 GP Left.


Languages: Common, Druidic, Sylvan.


HD: 7d8
54 HP
Initiative: +9
Speed: 70 ft.
Armor Class: 23, touch 15, flat-footed 18
Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+9
Attack: Claw +10 melee (1d6+4 and poison)
Full Attack: 2 claws +10 melee (1d6+5 plus poison & 8d6 acid) and bite+8 melee (1d6+3) and tail +8 melee (1d6+3 plus poison & 8d6 acid)
Special Attacks: Leaping pounce, poison, rake 1d6+3
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent, Combative Mount
Saves: Fort +9, Ref +9, Will +6
Abilities: Str 21, Dex 20, Con 18, Int 2, Wis 16, Cha 12
Skills: Hide +18*, Jump +29
Feats: Improved Natural Attack (claw), Improved Initiative, Multiattack
Special: Link, Share Spell, Evasion
Tricks: Attack, Come, Down, Heel, Stay, Guard, Fetch, Seek




Any corrections or suggestions would be appreciated.

[Quertus]

I've made a few changes to try to make poor Yiiksuv work better as a solo character:


Race: Troll
Class(s): none


Strength
34
Intelligence
4
Fortitude Save
10
Armor Class
18
HP
54


Dexterity
18
Wisdom
6
Reflex Save
5
Touch Armor Class
13
Initiative
+8


Constitution
22
Charisma
4
Will Save
-1
Flat-Footed Armor Class
14
Speed
30'





Attack
Claw
+15
1d6+13+F14 prone
20/x2
10' reach


Attack
Claw
+15
1d6+13+F14 prone
20/x2
10' reach


Attack
Rend
---
2d6+19
---



Attack
Bite
+9
1d6+6
Crit
Range


Full Attack
Weapon(s)
Atttack Bonus(es)
Damage(s)
Crit
Range



Att +15 = 3(BAB) + 12(Str) + 1(Enc) + -1 (size)
AC 18 = 10(base) + 5(NAC) + 4(dex) + -1(size)



Equipment/Item
Cost
WBL Start (i.e. 27,000 at Lvl 8)


Necklace of Natural Weapons (+1 Charge Breaker)
17,200



(something for flight)




Belt of Strength +2
4,000

































I'll probably need to cheese my way into a flying mount, because of my size. :smallannoyed: So, stack of Huge carpets, Animate Object, Permanency, buy only one (or two) for chump change. Or slave prices on a flying creature that's actually Huge - like a Yrthak, an advanced HD Spider Eater, and advanced HD Wyvern, or a ghetto Zombie Dragon. :smalltongue: Plus a war saddle.

So, I'll likely have no money for half-charged Boots of Speed, or for anything clever to improve my AC. :smallfrown: Oh, well.



Skill
Score
Ranks
Ability Modifier
Miscilaneous Modifiers


Lucid Dreaming

4.0






























































Ability
Details


Regeneration 1
Heal 1 HP/r, F/A deal real damage


10' Reach



Charge Breaker
if Yiiksuv his with a claw attack, the target must make a DC 14 Fortitude save or fall prone.


Rend
if Yiiksuv his with both claw attacks, he gets a free rend attack


Feats: Improved Initiative

Overview: Yiiksuv is designed to work in a party. In practice, he's a horrible "tank": he takes point, monsters hit him, he drops, and then spend the encounter unconscious while the party deals with the threat. This new build hopes to take advantage of reach & Charge Breaker to prevent most opposition from even attacking him.

[Quertus]

What I really want to do is test The Power of Teamwork, and build 2 characters who work together, but have to face off against twice as many monsters as a solo character.

Specifically, a Cleric who has buffed a Rogue. They lose if either character (usually the Cleric) drops.

Cleric is DMM Persist Necklace of Prayer Beads build, full plate, shield, beats people up with his night stick. Mainly buffs the rogue, then just threatens spaces to allow the Rogue to sneak attack. Rogue is Dark Whisper Gnome craven 2-weapon fighting Hide in Plain Sight DPS build. Hopes to not get attacked.

I'd like to try to put my money where my mouth is on Rogue being the best buff platform.

[ColorBlindNinja]

My Druid's strategy is to either turn into a hunting bat and use ranged spells while my animal companion fights in melee, or turn into a Fleshraker and fight in melee with my animal companion.

Either way, most of the damage that's being dealt is from Venomfire.

[MeimuHakurei]

I made a Level 8 Wizard back in the other thread, it's time for me to throw my hat in the ring for a more optimized Wizard.

Sources:
-Player's Handbook
-Player's Handbook 2
-Complete Mage
-Races of Stone
-Spell Compendium
-Player's Guide to Faerun

The Sheet (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1590082)

Other Notes is where I wrote down the contents of the spellbook. Despite me having a good idea what works for a wizard, I still feel there's plenty of things I overlooked. Also, I wanted to avoid using content from 3.0 books. I also suck at choosing a proper loadout for spell prep.

[AnimeTheCat]

So, considering the CR and Encounter Level systems were designed with a four person party in mind, I thin it would be worthwhile to list a variety of monsters and opposition ranging from high quantities of low CR foes to single higher CR foes. For the first one I'll pull a variety and plop their stat blocks in or link them as my opponent comparison points in conjunction with the PHB 2 starting packages as an optimization baseline.

[eggynack]

Improved Initiative
(Flaw: Fussy) Mourning Mutate
(Flaws: Love of Nature) Greenbound Summoning
Companion Spellbond
Natural Spell

Maybe toss improved initiative and add on natural bond. Your combat focus is the animal companion, yeah?


Produce Flame x3
That's a lot of flame being produced. There's a good number of low cost decent impact first level spells. I like instant of power, vision of punishment, and blockade as less than standard action combat spells. Also maybe enrage animal as a decent low level buff spell for the companion.

[Quertus]

The Power of Teamwork
(work in progress, help appreciated)
(sad that I can't get Improved Two Weapon Fighting until next level)
(really sad to Persist Haste instead of Divine Power like I'd hoped)


Race: Dark (0+1-1) Whisper Gnome
Class(s): Rogue 7 / Thug 1


Strength
10
Intelligence
Int Score
Fortitude Save
5
Armor Class
19
HP
42


Dexterity
24
Wisdom
Wis Score
Reflex Save
11
Touch Armor Class
19
Initiative
+7


Constitution
14
Charisma
Cha Score
Will Save
~1?
Flat-Footed Armor Class
11
Speed
Land Speed/Movement Mode and Speed





Attack
Weapon
Atttack Bonus
Damage
Crit
Range


Attack
Dagger "+4"
+20/+20/+15
1d3+7+5d6+8SA
19-20/x2
---


Attack
offhand Dagger "+4"
+20
1d3+7+5d6+8SA
19-20/x2
---


Full Attack
Weapon(s)
+20/+20/+20/+15
1d3+7+5d6+8SA
19-20/x2
---




Att +20(+22 flanking) =6(BAB) + 1(size) + 4(wpn) + 7(dex) +3(luck) + 1(Haste) + -2(2-wpn) +2(flanking)



Equipment/Item
Cost
WBL Start (i.e. 27,000 at Lvl 8)


Dagger ("+4") (x2)
"free"



Amulet of Emergency Healing
6,000



Cloak of Elvenkind
2,500
+5 Hide


Skin of the Chameleon
18,000
+10 Hide



































Skill
Score
Ranks
Ability Modifier
Miscilaneous Modifiers


Hide
49
11
7
8+4+4+5+10



























































Notes: needs Rogue alternate class feature to sneak attack creatures normally immune for half.

Feats (/3): Craven, Two-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Finesse

Dwoemers: Divine Power Haste, Divine Favor


Race: Human
Class(s): Cleric


Strength
Str Score
Intelligence
Int Score
Fortitude Save
Save Value
Armor Class
28
HP
HP Value


Dexterity
Dex Score
Wisdom
Wis Score
Reflex Save
Save Value
Touch Armor Class
TAC Value
Initiative
Initiative Score


Constitution
Con Score
Charisma
Cha Score
Will Save
Save Value
Flat-Footed Armor Class
FFAC Value
Speed
Land Speed/Movement Mode and Speed





Attack
Weapon
Atttack Bonus
Damage
Crit
Range


Attack
Weapon
Atttack Bonus
Damage
Crit
Range


Attack
Weapon
Atttack Bonus
Damage
Crit
Range


Full Attack
Weapon(s)
Atttack Bonus(es)
Damage(s)
Crit
Range





Equipment/Item
Cost
WBL Start (i.e. 27,000 at Lvl 8)


Necklace of Prayer Beads (Karma)
5,000?
adds +4 to caster level for x, 1/day


Nightstick
7,500



Minor Ring of Spell Storing
18,000
stores 3 levels of spells


Plate Mail "+4"




Large steel shield "+4"



























Skill
Score
Ranks
Ability Modifier
Miscilaneous Modifiers




































































Spell Level
Spell Name
Number Prepared


4th
Greater Magic Weapon
x2


4th
Divine Power
x1


1st
Divine Favor
x1


3rd
Magic Vestment
x2


3rd
Haste
x1


1st
Resurgence
x3


2nd
Close Wounds
x3















Feats: Extend Spell, Persist Spell, DMM:Persist, ... Extra Turning?

I'm not up on what current conventional wisdom is regarding valid turn pools for DMM:Persist builds. So people can probably do better with less cheese than I'll likely manage. I'm currently just assuming that it's relatively straightforward to get enough turn attempts to Persist two spells.


Basic strategy is that the Rogue hides, flanks with the Cleric, and deals massive Sneak Attack damage. If the Cleric gets in trouble, the Rogue can heal via Amulet of Emergency Healing, or by using Resurgence in the Ring of Spell Storing. If the Rogue gets in trouble (unlikely, given his minimum hide total, even after 20-point penalty for full attack, is 30), the Cleric has similar options.

This duo was chosen with the hope of making the math really easy (x2 monsters gang up on Cleric, unless they can spot Rogue, effectively only Rogue deals damage, etc).

The Rogue would obviously do better as a solo character with only a single set of monsters, but I'm too lazy to try to optimize HiPS onto PHB races.

[ColorBlindNinja]

Maybe toss improved initiative and add on natural bond. Your combat focus is the animal companion, yeah?

More or less, I might turn into a Fleshraker and join my Animal Companion in melee on occasion.

I normally take Improved Initiative on all my characters to improve my odds of going first.



That's a lot of flame being produced. There's a good number of low cost decent impact first level spells. I like instant of power, vision of punishment, and blockade as less than standard action combat spells. Also maybe enrage animal as a decent low level buff spell for the companion.

I mostly took Produce Flame three times so that way I could turn into a hunting bat and toss fire on people from a distance. That spell list should probably be tweaked for the days I'd want to turn into a Fleshraker.

[zlefin]

as a somewhat related point of comparison, it thought it might be good to also have a link to that pathfinder benchmarking stuff, since the numbers are comparable:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1CCxnAb8apicr3fOrSCEFNRwHlzRieMrXm6ld9-uLAFc/edit#gid=0

which came from, and is more thoroughly explained here:
https://rpgwillikers.wordpress.com/2015/09/29/bench-pressing-character-creation-by-the-numbers/

[Anthrowhale]

Here's a mundane immunity charger. Unlike an Ubercharger, it is a cannon rather than a glass cannon that is designed to be fully functional in a DMZ.

The build: Necropolitan Orc Barbarian 1/Pugilist 1/Ranger 1/Pugilist 1/Ranger 1/Battle Trickster 2/Exotic Weapon Master 1

Str 22=16+4(orc)+2(levels), Dex 14, Con -, Int 12=14-2(orc), Wis 9=11-2(orc), Cha 6=8-2(Orc)

With notable items:
Goring Horn 8K //Fiend Folio, A bonus 1d8 gore attack + Improved Bull Rush
Feathered Wings 10K //Fiend Folio, Fly 80(Average).
Masterwork Dragonsplits .6K? //MMIV charging weapons.
Masterwork Composite[+6] Longbow 1K //Kill things from long range if possible.
An arrow assortment.

Necropolitan provides massive immunities and is essentially free by level 8. You are immune to Mind-affecting, poison, sleep, paralysis, stunning, disease, death effects, fortitude saves unless they affect objects, critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, energy drain, physical ability score damage, death from massive damage. Does not breath, eat, or sleep. In combination with Pugilist 1, you have immunity to damage.


Flaw 1: Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Dragonsplits) // MMIV, An exotic 1-handed weapon that counts as light for the purpose of 2-weapon fighting.
Flaw 2: Snowtiger Berserker //Unapproachable East, Pounce with light weapons only that is Ex (rather than Su) and where the full attack is clearly a part of the charger rather than following.
1. Weapon Focus (Dragonsplits)
Barbarian 1: Fast Movement (move 40')
Barbarian 1: Rage (Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy )) // Extra attack with -2 to all attacks
Pugilist 1: Shake it off // You only take nonlethal damage now... but you are immune to nonlethal damage.
3. Close-Quarters Fighting //Complete Warrior, Always AOO Improved Grab/Grapple with damage a bonus to grapple check
Pugilist 2: Power Attack //More damage
Ranger 2: Two-Weapon Fighting. //More attacks
6. Headlong Rush //Variant charge provokes AOO and does double damage.
Goring Horn: Improved Bull Rush //Prereq, note that it costs less than half of WBL.
Battle Trickster 2. Shock Trooper //Penalize AC instead of Attack for PA.
Exotic Weapon Master 1. Uncanny Blow //Exotic one-handed weapon PAs as two-handed weapon.


On a charge attack the to-hit is: 14=8(BAB)+6(Str)+1(Masterwork enhancement)+1(Weapon Focus)+2(Charge)-2(Whirling Frenzy)-2(Two-weapons)
For a 14/14(off-hand)/14(Whirling Frenzy)/9 attack routine with Dragonsplits. In addition, there is a gore attack at 9=8(BAB)+6(Str)+2(Charge)-5(secondary)-2(Whirling Frenzy)
The Dragonsplits expected damage on hit is 51 = (3.5(base)+6(strength)+16(Uncanny Blow Power Attack)) x2(Headlong Rush) or 45 for the offhand.
The Gore attack expected damage on hit is 31 =(4.5(base)+3(Strength)+8(Power Attack)) x2 Headlong Rush.

Against an average CR 8 (http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?138024-Average-AC-and-Hp-of-Core-monsters-by-CR) opponent with AC 20 and 96 hp, this is about a 50% overkill in expectation. More generally, this build can scale to level 20 where it can pounce-kill CR 20 dragons. Against GPB Pit Fiends in a DMZ, it can do excessive quantities of nonlethal damage, then dig a hole, drop the Pit fiend in, and cover it up so the crushing damage keeps the Pit Fiend from ever acting again.

[ColorBlindNinja]

More generally, this build can scale to level 20 where it can pounce-kill CR 20 dragons. Against GPB Pit Fiends in a DMZ, it can do excessive quantities of nonlethal damage, then dig a hole, drop the Pit fiend in, and cover it up so the crushing damage keeps the Pit Fiend from ever acting again.

This assumes that those dragons don't make intelligent use of their spells and that the Pit Fiend is in a dead magic zone.

[Anthrowhale]

This assumes that those dragons don't make intelligent use of their spells and that the Pit Fiend is in a dead magic zone.

The goal is a proof point that mundanes can function better than spellcasters in a DMZ, even when Planar Binding is employed by spellcasters, as per discussion in the previous thread.

(I haven't done a real comparison with things in this thread yet.)

[ColorBlindNinja]

The goal is a proof point that mundanes can function better than spellcasters in a DMZ, even when Planar Binding is employed by spellcasters, as per discussion in the previous thread.

(I haven't done a real comparison with things in this thread yet.)

AnimeTheCat can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but the purpose of this thread was to compare the effectiveness of Martials to Casters in the melee role.

[Anthrowhale]

AnimeTheCat can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but the purpose of this thread was to compare the effectiveness of Martials to Casters in the melee role.

Sure---let's see how it compares.

[Cosi]

The goal is a proof point that mundanes can function better than spellcasters in a DMZ, even when Planar Binding is employed by spellcasters, as per discussion in the previous thread.

If planar binding is only getting you one demon, you're not going to get away with Necropolitan + Pugilist damage immunity. If you are getting that, the encounter with planar binding goons is going to be twenty or thirty demons minimum.

[AnimeTheCat]

Starting Package Used: Package 1: The Destroyer
Race: Half-Orc
Class(s): Barbarian 8
The Table below includes magic items.


Strength
22 (26R)
Intelligence
8
Fortitude Save
+10
Armor Class
20
HP
73


Dexterity
14
Wisdom
12
Reflex Save
+6
Touch Armor Class
13
Initiative
+2


Constitution
14
Charisma
6
Will Save
+5 (+7R
Flat-Footed Armor Class
18
Speed
30 ft


- R denotes Rage



Attack
+1 Shocking Greataxe
+15/+10 (+17/+12R)
1d12+10 (+13R)
x3
Melee


Attack
+1 Composite Longbow (+5 Str)
+11/+6
1d8+6
x3
110 ft





Equipment/Item
Cost
WBL Start (i.e. 27,000 at Lvl 8)


+1 Shocking Greataxe
8,350
18,650


+1 Breastplate
1,350
17,300


Amulet of Natural Armor +1
2,000
15,300


Ring of Protection +1
2,000
13,300


+1 Composite Longbow (Str +5)
2,900
10,400


Gauntlets of Ogre Power
4,000
6,400


Cloak of Resistance +2
4,000
2,400















Skill
Score
Ranks
Ability Modifier
Miscilaneous Modifiers


































































Feats:



Used a 32 PB, could easily switch to a 25 PB.
Race: Human
Class: Barbarian 6/Frenzied Berserker 2
Alignment: Chaotic Good


Strength
20 (24R/26F/30RF)
Intelligence
10
Fortitude Save
+11
Armor Class
19 (17R/15F/13RF)
HP
81


Dexterity
12
Wisdom
14
Reflex Save
3
Touch Armor Class
12 (10R/8F/6RF)
Initiative
+1


Constitution
16 (20R)
Charisma
8
Will Save
+4 (+6R)
Flat-Footed Armor Class
18 (16R/14F/12RF)
Speed
30 ft


- R Denotes Rage
- F Denotes Frenzy
- RF Denotes Rage and Frenzy



Attack
+1 Greatsword
+14/+9
2d6+8
19-20/x2
Melee


Attack
Masterwork Composite Longbow (+5 Str)
+10/+5
1d8+5
x3
110 ft


Full Attack
Greatsword
+14/+9 (+16/+11R, +17/+17/+12F, +19/+19/+14RF
2d6+8 (+1d8+11R, +1d8+13F, +1d8+16RF
19-20/x2
Melee





Equipment/Item
Cost
27,000 GP


+1 Berserker Greatsword
8,350
19,650


Belt of Priestly Might (Kord)
6,000
13,650


Masterwork Composite Longbow (+5 Str)
900
12,750


+1 Breastplate
1,350
11,400


Amulet of Tears
2,300
9,100


Ring of Protection +1
2,000
7,100


Anklet of Translocation (x2)
2,800
4,300


Potion of Fly (x2)
1,500
2,800


Potion of Enlarge Person (x4)
1,000
1,800





Skill
Score
Ranks
Ability Modifier
Miscilaneous Modifiers


































































Feats: HPower Attack, 1Cleave, 3Destructive Rage, 6Intimidating Rage

A pretty straightforward Frenzied Berserker build with moderate optimization (Strength is the important ability score, make it the best, followed by Constitution, make it good too). I could lower my Wisdom, but I like having that for bonuses to Will saves and Survival (I like survival on my barbarians).

Could be more optimized, 2 flaws and a 2 level dip in Fighter for feats for leap attack and shock trooper, 2 levels of warblade for maneuvers, Spirit Lion for Pounce, Wolf Totem for Improved Trip, use a Guisarme for reach and tripping. I know the typical optimization tricks, just chose to go straightforward with this one.



I used a 25 PB, but could easily switch it to a 32 PB.
Race:
Class(s):


Strength

Intelligence

Fortitude Save

Armor Class

HP



Dexterity

Wisdom

Reflex Save

Touch Armor Class

Initiative



Constitution

Charisma

Will Save

Flat-Footed Armor Class

Speed






Attack
Weapon
Atttack Bonus
Damage
Crit
Range


Attack
Weapon
Atttack Bonus
Damage
Crit
Range


Attack
Weapon
Atttack Bonus
Damage
Crit
Range


Full Attack
Weapon(s)
Atttack Bonus(es)
Damage(s)
Crit
Range





Equipment/Item
Cost
WBL Start (i.e. 27,000 at Lvl 8)


















































Skill
Score
Ranks
Ability Modifier
Miscilaneous Modifiers




































































Spell Level
Spell Name
Number Prepared

















































Spells Per Day


Spell Level
Spells Per Day







































Spells Known


Spell Level
Spell Name








































Feats:


@ColorBlindNinja:
Yeah, this is really a straight numbers comparison between all characters and their functionality in the Melee Combat Role. The primary means of comparison is going to be defense (AC, Mobility, Saves, Etc.), Offense (Damage, Chance to hit, number of attacks, etc.) and combat utility (tripping, disarming, sickening, pulling "aggro" if someone puts in a knight or uses Goad). Like I said, there isn't really going to be a "winner" but everyone will be able to see ability scores, attacks, full attacks, and special attacks side-by-side and make decisions from there. I'm going to include a section in the comparisons for what magical buffs the character is under the influence so that, should people so choose, they can see what would be removed in the event that the character was under the effect of anti-magic of some kind.

I'm of the personal opinion that if you are under the effect of a spell or magic item that brings you up to or above standard competence, that you're acting in that level of competence, not operating there, if that makes sense. I would personally rate a character under the influence of 3-5 buff spells as less competent overall in melee combat than someone who uses a magic item and weapon and that's it, but that's my opinion and I won't try to force it on anyone else. I'm not getting in to a "Caster vs Mundane" war, though I'm not stopping one either. If people want to argue the points of Planar Binding vs personal face smashing, go for it. I'm not the biggest personal fan of minionmancy unless it's undead or Leadership, so LPB, Gate, Etc don't really appeal to me from even a gameplay or roleplay perspective (just my opinion).

All I'm doing is putting numbers next to numbers and letting people think for themselves as to what they would rather have or what they think is better, because better can be quantitative (strictly what is the highest/most numbers) or it can be qualitative (how one comes by the numbers they have). It's all In the Eye of the Beholder :smallwink:

[ExLibrisMortis]

There's a build in my signature that fits the challenge pretty well.

[ColorBlindNinja]

@ColorBlindNinja:
Yeah, this is really a straight numbers comparison between all characters and their functionality in the Melee Combat Role. The primary means of comparison is going to be defense (AC, Mobility, Saves, Etc.), Offense (Damage, Chance to hit, number of attacks, etc.) and combat utility (tripping, disarming, sickening, pulling "aggro" if someone puts in a knight or uses Goad). Like I said, there isn't really going to be a "winner" but everyone will be able to see ability scores, attacks, full attacks, and special attacks side-by-side and make decisions from there. I'm going to include a section in the comparisons for what magical buffs the character is under the influence so that, should people so choose, they can see what would be removed in the event that the character was under the effect of anti-magic of some kind.

I'm of the personal opinion that if you are under the effect of a spell or magic item that brings you up to or above standard competence, that you're acting in that level of competence, not operating there, if that makes sense. I would personally rate a character under the influence of 3-5 buff spells as less competent overall in melee combat than someone who uses a magic item and weapon and that's it, but that's my opinion and I won't try to force it on anyone else. I'm not getting in to a "Caster vs Mundane" war, though I'm not stopping one either. If people want to argue the points of Planar Binding vs personal face smashing, go for it. I'm not the biggest personal fan of minionmancy unless it's undead or Leadership, so LPB, Gate, Etc don't really appeal to me from even a gameplay or roleplay perspective (just my opinion).

All I'm doing is putting numbers next to numbers and letting people think for themselves as to what they would rather have or what they think is better, because better can be quantitative (strictly what is the highest/most numbers) or it can be qualitative (how one comes by the numbers they have). It's all In the Eye of the Beholder :smallwink:

OK. Most of my Druid build's damage is coming from Venomfire, I may redo my items to pick up a rod of energy sub so that I can deal with monsters that are immune/resist acid.


There's a build in my signature that fits the challenge pretty well.

Nice to see some Meld Shaping in there, I sometimes feel like they don't get much love.

[AnimeTheCat]

OK. Most of my Druid build's damage is coming from Venomfire, I may redo my items to pick up a rod of energy sub so that I can deal with monsters that are immune/resist acid.

There's not really any problem with damage coming from a single source, and to my knowledge there aren't that many creatures with Acid Immunity/Resistance, so at ECL 8, you're probably fine as far as damage output goes. That may not be the case at higher levels, but that's just how higher levels are.


Nice to see some Meld Shaping in there, I sometimes feel like they don't get much love.

Were I not prepping another character and baseline monsers, I would make an incarnate. I prefer them to totemists. I do thoroughly enjoy the floating bonuses that you can apply and Azurins are simply my favorite race for it (bonus essentia AND a feat, yes please). *Sigh* I haven't had one of my friends willing to DM a game where I play an Incarnate though... I told them I would play the "Skillmonkey" role, but they don't understand Incarnum so they are hesitant to allow it, even with someone who has explained it to them multiple times and isn't about upsetting the balance of the game of "winning" at D&D. (we have had a player try to showboat and "win" at D&D a few times. Usually solved by OOC conversation, but without fail they will eventually complain. It's not even a balancing thing with them, it's about what "I" did and what "You" didn't...)


There's a build in my signature that fits the challenge pretty well.

For this exercise, would you mind doing a 32 PB of what fits your build best so that I can put it up there with the rest of them (eventually... Maybe Thursday... Life is busy)

[ExLibrisMortis]

For this exercise, would you mind doing a 32 PB of what fits your build best so that I can put it up there with the rest of them (eventually... Maybe Thursday... Life is busy)
Okay.


This build was designed for use at level 8 with 1 LA bought off. It's a crowd controller with healing ability, but it doesn't do so well without decent stats (str/dex/con and 13+ int). The idea is to dump AC and buff self-heals, DR, and counter-attacks.

Azurin Crusader 4/Incarnate 4
Starting stats are 16/14/16/14/8/8 (32 points equivalent). Add a strength-boosting template if possible, but don't reduce dexterity (at all) or intelligence (below 13). Increases go in Strength, resulting in final stats of 18/14/16/14/8/8 at level 8.

Feats
Combat Expertise, Combat Reflexes, Extra Granted Maneuver, Improved Trip, Karmic Strike, Midnight Dodge.

You can replace Extra Granted Maneuver with Expanded Soulmeld Capacity. Take Double Chakra at 9th and Robilar's Gambit at 12th.

Flaws
Shaky, Vulnerable. This build is supposed to be low on AC.

Trait
Aggressive. More AC penalties!

Maneuvers
Stances ― iron guard’s glare (1st), martial spirit (1st)
Strikes ― battle leader’s charge (2nd), charging minotaur (1st), crusader’s strike (1st), douse the flames (1st), leading the attack (1st)
Boosts ― white raven tactics (3rd)

Soulmelds
Airstep Sandals (bound), Planar Ward, Spellward Shirt, Therapeutic Mantle.
If using Double Chakra, Mantle of Flame is neat.
If you're not facing spellcasters, use Astral Vambraces instead of Spellward Shirt.

Now, this is a complex build, and you need to be aware of several combinations that provide you with the stats and tricks you need.

1. Martial Spirit (stance) + Therapeutic Mantle (soulmeld) + Improved Trip (feat)
You can heal a lot of damage. Let me put up the text:


Therapeutic Mantle
Whenever you are the target of a spell or effect that heals hit point damage, the spell heals additional damage equal to its spell level. [...]

Essentia: Every point of essentia invested increases the additional healing by 2 more hit points.

Martial Spirit
While you are in this stance, you or an ally within 30 feet heals 2 points of damage each time you make a successful melee attack.

Improved Trip
If you trip an opponent in melee combat, you immediately get a melee attack against that opponent as if you hadn’t used your attack for the trip attempt.
Note: to trip, you must first make a melee touch attack.

The combination is simple: whenever possible, your attack is a trip attempt. If you make your melee touch attack, you heal 9 hit points. If you then make your follow-up attack, you heal another 9 hit points.
The healing is computed as follows: 2 base, +2 per point of essentia (3), +1 because Martial Spirit is a first-level maneuver.
Note that the latter is a reasonable house-rule, as Martial Spirit is not, technically, a first-level equivalent spell.

2. Steely Resolve (class feature) + Astral Vambraces (soulmeld) + combination 1
You're hard to kill.
You have delayed damage (10), damage reduction (8/magic) or spell resistance (17), and healing (9 hp per attack).
Spellward Shirt can really use Expanded Soulmeld Capacity, because SR 21 is just a lot more relevant at level 9, though it's not perfect by any means.

3. Large size (race or spell) + Guisarme (weapon) + Combat Reflexes (feat) + Improved Trip (feat) + combination 1
It sucks to be near you.
You threaten a 50' diameter area - 10' base size, and 10' reach, which you use with a guisarme, to double to 20'. Whenever an opponent provokes an AoO, you get to trip them, and take your follow-up attack, healing 9 hit points each time.

4. Karmic Strike (feat) + low AC (various) + Mantle of Flame (soulmeld) + all of the above
It sucks to attack you in melee.
Mantle of Flame simply deals 4d6 fire damage to anyone attacking you in melee (except with reach weapons).
You can take an AoO whenever an opponent hits you, which will be often, because your AC sucks - you have a -6 penalty from Vulnerable, Aggressive, and Karmic Strike itself. This AoO will be a trip-follow-up-heal combo, as per combination 1, and the damage from the provoking attack will be reduced, as per combination 2, so enemies will not succeed in killing you with melee attacks, but still take damage.

Keep in mind that you can't use them all at once. You have only 6 essentia and 4 soulmelds, so you can't fill your Shirt, Mantle and Vambraces all at once. In addition, both Mantles take the same slot - hence the Double Chakra feat at level 9 - so you must decide which one you prefer. For example, if the cleric handles the healing, you might as well go with the Mantle of Flame (and switch your stance to Iron Guard's Glare), to deal that extra damage.

Your Airstep Sandals allow you to fly short distances, which may allow you to avoid difficult terrain or balance atop obstacles. High ground provides +1 to hit.

Your Planar Ward provides a continuous protection from alignment effect, which stops some of the nastier Will save-based effects.

Binding Astral Vambraces can get you a Fly or Swim speed, Power Attack, or Trip (with a Slam you don't have, so it might not work).

Weaknesses
Anything beyond 20' is annoying, anything beyond ~80' is potentially problematic.

[Anthrowhale]

I spent a little bit of time looking into expected damage vs. AC 20 (average for CR 8). There are 3 builds so far that seem significant. I'm ignoring critical hits and rolls of 1 for simplicity.

Double Fleshrakers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23084378&postcount=40) has an expected damage of 118. This is slightly awkward because you must never be more than 30' apart, but an advantage is that it basically applies to every full attack.

Immunity Charger (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23088194&postcount=50) has an expected damage of 186 on a Whirling Frenzy charge and 131 on a charge.

I'm unclear on the damage output of the Fleshraker mount (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1587422). This one makes my head hurt. If a mount charges does the mounter count as charging? If so, this is extremely potent. Reading through Mounted Combat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#mountedCombat), it says
When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance. which seems to imply the answer is 'yes' without explicitly stating it. Spirited Charge makes this triple damage with a lance on any mount, so you are doing: 3x(1d6+5(strength)x1.5(two-handed)+2(enhance)+8(Power Attack)x2(Two-handed))=85.5 expected. This is higher than Lans's calculation. Using that Whirling Frenzy Pounce + the Fleshraker damage (minor) comes to an expected 218 damage which drops to 127 without whirling frenzy.

I don't understand the Sword/Shield build well enough to evaluate. For example, how is the rogue getting divine favor cast on them? And where is the +4 weapon coming from?

[Quertus]

I don't understand the Sword/Shield build well enough to evaluate. For example, how is the rogue getting divine favor cast on them? And where is the +4 weapon coming from?

I'm clearly not finished with those characters (sorry!), but I was trying to demonstrate my oft-stated stance that Rogue is the best buff platform in the game.

Divine Favor comes from the Cleric via the Ring of Spell Storing. Cleric casts Divine Favor into the Ring, Rogue uses Ring, gets Divine Favor. Greater Magic Weapon is the source of the enchantment on the Rogue's blades.

Against AC 20, the Rogue should hit 100%/100%/75%/50%(IIRC), for (again, IIRC)(1d3+7+5d6+8)*3.25 = (2+7+17+8)*3.25 = 34*3.25 = 102+9 = 111 expected damage.

Nowhere near the top of the charts, especially since you have to cut it in half - it's effectively 55 damage per character. Assuming I've done my math right.

[MeimuHakurei]

I find Rogues as the best buff platform a little sketchy, given that they have a class that's a straight upgrade from it - the Rogue really only has Sneak Attack going for it, while the Factotum has better skills due to Int synergy, more class skills (you can't really beat "everything"), ability to delegate just about everything to Intelligence and still gets trapfinding. Heck, Cunning Brilliance allows the Factotum to steal Rogue class features!

[Florian]

@Quertus:

I don´t see a need for DMM:P at lower levels. Combat Reflexes, SF:C and Augmented Summoning while using a reach weapon (longspear) will prove to be more practical when it comes to economy of actions and a celestial wolf as a third flanking buddy will help trigger more AoOs, including SA.

[Quertus]

@Quertus:

I don´t see a need for DMM:P at lower levels. Combat Reflexes, SF:C and Augmented Summoning while using a reach weapon (longspear) will prove to be more practical when it comes to economy of actions and a celestial wolf as a third flanking buddy will help trigger more AoOs, including SA.

Thanks! As you can probably tell, I don't usually play muggles.

I think, if I tried to optimize a single Rogue, I'd aim for PaO cheese, for truly ridiculous numbers of attacks. Can you imagine the Hydra that can sneak up on you, and gets SA damage with each head? I think most players would start throwing things at their GM if they encountered that beast in the wild.

[MeimuHakurei]

Thanks! As you can probably tell, I don't usually play muggles.

I think, if I tried to optimize a single Rogue, I'd aim for PaO cheese, for truly ridiculous numbers of attacks. Can you imagine the Hydra that can sneak up on you, and gets SA damage with each head? I think most players would start throwing things at their GM if they encountered that beast in the wild.

That's pretty damn effective as a build idea - I'd say it's comparable to a high-op Ubercharger. Still, it has the problem of struggling with enemies immune to sneak attacks (which is an uncomfortably high share of enemies).

[ColorBlindNinja]

That's pretty damn effective as a build idea - I'd say it's comparable to a high-op Ubercharger. Still, it has the problem of struggling with enemies immune to sneak attacks (which is an uncomfortably high share of enemies).

There are some spells that can bypass Sneak Attack immunity, you can get them in wands, if you can afford them.

[Karl Aegis]

I was curious how many of the builds used a gimmick of some sort so I compiled a few of them.

Rogue 8
25 Point Buy
Reach, Low Armor Class, Low Hit Points, Low Saves
Gimmick: Sneak Attack
WARNINGS:
Extend Reach - Humans don't qualify
Flaws
Trait
Forgotten Realms Only

Druid 8
32 Point Buy
Darkvision 60 feet, Low-light Vision
Low Armor Class
Variant Race
Gimmick: Summoner, Spellcaster
Gimmick: Charge - Animal Companion
WARNING:
Forgotten Realms Only

Barbarian 2 Fighter 6
25 Point Buy
Multiclass Character
Limited Ability: Rage
Rage Variant - Whirling Frenzy
Gimmick: Mounted
Gimmick: Charger
WARNING:
Homebrew items

Fighter 8
25 Point Buy
Darkvision 30 feet, Low-light Vision
High Armor Class, Low Speed, Damage Reduction

Troll
30 Point Buy
Darkvision 60 feet, Low-light Vision
Low Armor Class, Low Will Save, Low Hit Points, Regeneration
WARNINGS:
Level 11
Homebrew Items
Illegal Starting Strength: 20

Druid 8
32 Point Buy
High Initiative
Gimmick: Spellcaster
Gimmick: Charger
Gimmick: Charger - Animal Companion
WARNINGS:
Flaws
Forgotten Realms Only

Wizard 8
32 Point Buy
Darkvision 60 Feet, Low-light Vision
Low Armor Class, Low Hit Points, Low Attack Bonus
Gimmick: Spellcaster, Summoner

Is actually two characters
Is actually two characters
Gimmick: Is actually two characters
Gimmick: Sneak Attack
Gimmick: Spellcaster
WARNINGS
Singular items are worth more than 50% of character wealth
Dungeon Master unlikely to accept two characters as singular character
Forgotten Realms Only

Frankenclass
Darkvision 60 Feet
Non-lethal damage
Gimmick: Charger
Gimmick: Undead
Limited Ability: Rage
Rage Variant:Whirling Frenzy
WARNINGS:
Forgotten Realms Only
Snow Tiger Berserker only uses light weapons, build uses one-handed weapons
Flaws
Only deals non-lethal damage, not immune to damage
Weapon Specialization without prerequisites

[Anthrowhale]

Only deals non-lethal damage, not immune to damage
There is an ambiguity here, but the theory that Shake It Off only applies to damage dealt seems highly suspect. To get there, you need to believe that class designers intentionally included an option which removes the option of dealing lethal damage and reduces the durations of stuns dealt by the pugilist. It seems more plausible that instead Shake It Off applies to damage received where the conversion to nonlethal and the reduction in stun durations are clear advantages rather than clear nerfs. This also seems more consistent with the name.


Weapon Specialization without prerequisites

This was just a typo: It's Exotic Weapon Proficiency (fixed, thanks).

[AnimeTheCat]

I was curious how many of the builds used a gimmick of some sort so I compiled a few of them.

Rogue 8
25 Point Buy
Reach, Low Armor Class, Low Hit Points, Low Saves
Gimmick: Sneak Attack
WARNINGS:
Extend Reach - Humans don't qualify
Flaws
Trait
Forgotten Realms Only

Druid 8
32 Point Buy
Darkvision 60 feet, Low-light Vision
Low Armor Class
Variant Race
Gimmick: Summoner, Spellcaster
Gimmick: Charge - Animal Companion
WARNING:
Forgotten Realms Only

Barbarian 2 Fighter 6
25 Point Buy
Multiclass Character
Limited Ability: Rage
Rage Variant - Whirling Frenzy
Gimmick: Mounted
Gimmick: Charger
WARNING:
Homebrew items

Fighter 8
25 Point Buy
Darkvision 30 feet, Low-light Vision
High Armor Class, Low Speed, Damage Reduction

Troll
30 Point Buy
Darkvision 60 feet, Low-light Vision
Low Armor Class, Low Will Save, Low Hit Points, Regeneration
WARNINGS:
Level 11
Homebrew Items
Illegal Starting Strength: 20

Druid 8
32 Point Buy
High Initiative
Gimmick: Spellcaster
Gimmick: Charger
Gimmick: Charger - Animal Companion
WARNINGS:
Flaws
Forgotten Realms Only

Wizard 8
32 Point Buy
Darkvision 60 Feet, Low-light Vision
Low Armor Class, Low Hit Points, Low Attack Bonus
Gimmick: Spellcaster, Summoner

Is actually two characters
Is actually two characters
Gimmick: Is actually two characters
Gimmick: Sneak Attack
Gimmick: Spellcaster
WARNINGS
Singular items are worth more than 50% of character wealth
Dungeon Master unlikely to accept two characters as singular character
Forgotten Realms Only

Frankenclass
Darkvision 60 Feet
Non-lethal damage
Gimmick: Charger
Gimmick: Undead
Limited Ability: Rage
Rage Variant:Whirling Frenzy
WARNINGS:
Forgotten Realms Only
Snow Tiger Berserker only uses light weapons, build uses one-handed weapons
Flaws
Only deals non-lethal damage, not immune to damage
Weapon Specialization without prerequisites


Aww... You didn't list mine lol

[Anthrowhale]

It just gives DR 1 vs nonlethal, errata in Dragon 313.
Oh nice. It looks like all 3 of us are wrong. Here's the text from Dragon 313.

The pugilist develops fast healing 1 that applies only to nonlethal damage. This ability also reduces the duration of all stunning effects by 1 round. The pugilist can take this ability multiple times; its effects stack.

This implies the damage immunity is broken so we're back to a glass cannon. Let me see if I can figure out how to fix it...

[Anthrowhale]

I guess I remembered that wrong.. been a while. Point was mostly that its not immunity.

Yeah, thanks.

[Quertus]

I was curious how many of the builds used a gimmick of some sort so I compiled a few of them.

Troll
WARNINGS:
Level 11
Homebrew Items
Illegal Starting Strength: 20

No, I used Savage Species progression, he's only level 8 - thus the missing HD, regeneration only being 1 HP/round, etc.

I'm not even sure where you got those other two "homebrew items" from (unless you're confusing paying for spell casting services as a custom item...)

EDIT: I have no idea how I calculated Yiiksuv's strength stat. Apparently, I can't math. :smallredface:

EDIT II: I may have used the troll I found online with a much higher strength stat. Or I may have used the original character - who was a half-Dragon troll - as a baseline.

[ExLibrisMortis]

It may be worth swapping the rows and columns in your table, AnimeTheCat. Due to the way tables are set up, it's hard to add columns, but easy to add rows. Also, in Western writing, rows can just keep going, whereas columns stop fitting on your page/screen at some point.

[AnimeTheCat]

It may be worth swapping the rows and columns in your table, AnimeTheCat. Due to the way tables are set up, it's hard to add columns, but easy to add rows. Also, in Western writing, rows can just keep going, whereas columns stop fitting on your page/screen at some point.

Duely noted. I've got reformatting to do and that just makes more sense anyway than the way I was doing it.

[eggynack]

Druid 8
32 Point Buy
Darkvision 60 feet, Low-light Vision
Low Armor Class
Variant Race
Gimmick: Summoner, Spellcaster
Gimmick: Charge - Animal Companion
WARNING:
Forgotten Realms Only
Not so sure my build has low AC. It typically (always?) runs around in desmodu hunting bat form with luminous armor, which means between 25 and 29 AC depending on attack type.

[Lans]

Barbarian 2 Fighter 6
25 Point Buy
Multiclass Character
Limited Ability: Rage
Rage Variant - Whirling Frenzy
Gimmick: Mounted
Gimmick: Charger
WARNING:
Homebrew items



What items are homebrew?


No, I used Savage Species progression, he's only level 8 - thus the missing HD, regeneration only being 1 HP/round, etc.



That wasn't even remotely clear. I thought you were using something from the revamp la thread.

[Florian]

Thanks! As you can probably tell, I don't usually play muggles.

I think, if I tried to optimize a single Rogue, I'd aim for PaO cheese, for truly ridiculous numbers of attacks. Can you imagine the Hydra that can sneak up on you, and gets SA damage with each head? I think most players would start throwing things at their GM if they encountered that beast in the wild.

Hm, how to explain it? When it comes to "muggles", it´s not really helpful to look at things in isolation, you've got to look for synergies and viable combat tactics instead. Unlike working with spells and looking what you have and combo with, you must basically anticipate what could be there and come up with stuff that could easily combo under different circumstances.

[Lans]

I'm making a warforged wizard/spellsword with adamantine body https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1592795

I was thinking about going focused specialist, combat brute, shocktrooper, and arcane strike, but those feats come online at level 9 without shenanigens. I might take still spell.

[AnimeTheCat]

I made some formatting changes to the table in the OP. Let me know if there are any suggestions or changes. Making builds as rows is way more efficient to add to it for sure. Length is difficult with so many columns, so what can I remove or shorten to make it fit a little nicer?

[Kelb_Panthera]

I've decided to open with an example of the idea of a non-magical character taken to its extreme. 25PB (though I honestly prefer 32)


Race: Karsite
Class(s): Human Paragon 2/ Forsaker 4/ Warblade 1 (warblade level at 5, 1 point of LA bought off at 6)


Strength
16
Intelligence
14
Fortitude Save
10
Armor Class
20
HP
56


Dexterity
16
Wisdom
10
Reflex Save
8
Touch Armor Class
13
Initiative
3


Constitution
14
Charisma
12
Will Save
9
Flat-Footed Armor Class
17
Speed
40ft (reduced to 30 by medium load)





Attack
Longsword
+10
1D8+3
19-20 X2
5ft


Attack
Guisarme
+9
2d4+4
X2
10ft


Attack
Net
+5
Entangle
-
10ft


Full Attack
Longsword
+10/ +5
1d8+3
19-20 X2
5ft





Equipment/Item
Cost
WBL Start (i.e. 27,000 at Lvl 8)


Weapons
344gp



Mithral Chain +MWK Dastana
425gp



Standard Adv Gear*
39.8gp



Gnome Artificer Device 1**
11,400gp



Gnome Artificer Device 2**
9,000



Magebred L. Warhorse w/ Barding
700gp



Healing Salve X4
4gp



Jug of Shapesand
100gp



Explosive Packs X3
(1 Round Fuse)
600gp



Alchemical Sleep X5
150gp



Ghostoil
250gp



Chaos Flask X5
500gp



Trollbane X2
180gp



Fast Leg Fiendish Graft
4,000gp







Skill
Score
Ranks
Ability Modifier
Miscilaneous Modifiers


Climb
+8
0
+3
+5


Jump
+18
10
+3
+5


Know (Arch & Eng)
+12
10
+2
-


Listen
+10
10
0
-


Sense Motive
+10
10
0
-


Tumble
+13
10
+3
-


Use Rope (CC)
+4
1
+3
-





Maneuver Level
Maneuver Name
Discipline


War 2
Disarming Strike
Iron Heart


War 1
Sudden Leap
Tiger Claw


War 2
Mountain Hammer
Stone Dragon


War 1
Punsihing Stance
Iron Heart (stance)



Feats: Great Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will, Combat Expertise, Combat Intuition

Class Features: Adaptive learning [Know (Arch & Eng)], Forsake Magic, Tough Defense (con to AC), Magic Destruction, Natural Weapons, Fast Healing 1 (20 points/ day), Inherent Bonuses to Str and Dex (+2 each), Battle Clarity (int to ref unless FF), Weapon Aptitude, SR 31 (17 racial +14 class; explicitly stacks)

*Standard Adventuring gear is a backpack, bedroll, 4 belt pouches, waterskin, mess kit, crowbar, collapsible grappling hook w/ silk rope, and bullseye lantern w/ oil.

**Gnome Artificer Devices (Magic of Faerun page 23 & 24) are completely non-magical and not restricted in their use to gnome artificers. Price doubled from cost to create per ordinary magic items.

Device 1 on shoulders and arms: Bull's strength (20 charges), spider climb (20 charges), launch item (30 charges), and battering ram (10 charges)

Device 2 on waist and feet: Cat's Grace (20 charges), Expeditious Retreat (20 charges), and Grease at CL 5 (10 charges)





And here's a link to the char sheet: Asta The Black Clover (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1592428).

Please forgive the blatant ripping off of the name. I'm terrible with names.


I'll come back with a more normal fighter next.

[eggynack]

Snip
The degree to which this build looks super similar to the fleshraker animal companion (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=817089)on my build is a bit shocking. Not sure exactly what your in-combat plan is but a cursory examination implies that I'd probably go with the fleshraker in any sort of bare bones face to face combat scenario. And, to be clear, while you have totally eschewed anything even marginally magical, the fleshraker kinda has too, at least on that character sheet.

[Kelb_Panthera]

The degree to which this build looks super similar to the fleshraker animal companion (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=817089)on my build is a bit shocking. Not sure exactly what your in-combat plan is but a cursory examination implies that I'd probably go with the fleshraker in any sort of bare bones face to face combat scenario. And, to be clear, while you have totally eschewed anything even marginally magical, the fleshraker kinda has too, at least on that character sheet.

First step is using one of the BFC options or debuffs he's got to weaken the enemy's numbers and/or limit its mobility. Second step is to buff with the appropriate device(s). Final step is to stab it to death :smalltongue:

There's no denying this is pretty close to the upper bound for a non-magical character that's not eschewing magic just for the sake of doing it though. Might make it as far as 13~ish if pushed with everything I've got but certainly not any further. Without the forsaker levels to justify their expense, Lantan Artificer Devices just aren't worth it and forsaker is nigh-worthless without them, symionts, and grafts. For sure, the clothes make the man here.

Oh, and the irony of being completely non-magical leading to an evil character is not lost on me. :smallconfused::smallamused:

[Anthrowhale]

First step is using one of the BFC options or debuffs he's got to weaken the enemy's numbers and/or limit its mobility. Second step is to buff with the appropriate device(s). Final step is to stab it to death :smalltongue:

If you are taking Karsite for the spell resistance, you might consider the Lesser Bariaur (Planar Handbook) instead as it's LA+1.

[Anthrowhale]

Since my first attempt melted down on the Pugilist Errata, here's Immunity Charger II.

The basic build is Dragonborn[wings] Warforged Bear Totem Barbarian with Whirling Frenzy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bearTotemClassFeatures ) 1/Fighter 4/Warforged Juggernaut 3 with stats: (24 point buy)
Str 18(=16+2(levels)), Dex 15(=13-2(Dragonborn)), Con 12(=8+2(Dragonborn)+2(Warforged)), Int 14, Wis 6, Cha 6


Flaw 1: Multiattack
Flaw 2: Adamantine Body
Bear Totem Barbarian 1: Toughness
Level 1: Troll-Blooded
Fighter 1: Snowtiger Berserker
Fighter 2: Power Attack
Level 3: Improved Multiattack
Fighter 4: Power Lunge
Goring Horn: Improved Bull Rush
Level 6: Shocktrooper
Juggernaut 1: Powerful Charge



Spike Stones 4K (Maug graft that increases natural weapon damage by 1d4)
2x Rending Claw 10K (Illithid graft for 1d6 claw attack)
Goring Horn 8K (Illithid graft for 1d8 gore attack + improved bull rush)
Masterwork composite[+4] longbow .8K
A variety of arrows
~4K gp to spend


The attack routine takes advantage of 3 natural weapons with no penalty due to Improved Multiattack and Armor Spikes for iteratives. On a charge, the base to-hit is 14(=7(bab)+4(strength)+2(charge)+1(Juggernaut)).
Making a dive attack (which functions as a charge except with movement restrictions), the damage is:
2x claw 42 = (3.5(base)+2.5(spike stones)+8(Str x2 Power Lunge)+7(Power attack)) x2 (Dive Attack With Piercing Weapon)
Goring Horn 53 = (4.5(base)+2.5(spike stones)+4.5(Powerful Charge)+8(Str x2 Power Lunge)+7(Power Attack)) x2 (Dive Attack with piercing weapon)
Armor Spikes 23 = (3.5(base)+8(Str x2 Power Lunge))x2(Dive Attack with Piercing Weapon)

The average damage vs. AC 20 (average at CR8) for a Dive Attack is 131.5 which grows to 197 if Whirling Frenzy is in use.

On the immunities side, we have immunity to: Damage (except Acid or Fire), Critical Hits, Mind-Affecting, poison, sleep effects, paralysis, disease, nausea, fatigue, exhaustion, and energy drain.

Kelb's nonmagical devices could obviously be complimentary.

[Kelb_Panthera]

If you are taking Karsite for the spell resistance, you might consider the Lesser Bariaur (Planar Handbook) instead as it's LA+1.

SR, weapon proficiencies, the human bonus feat and skill points, and a solid in-character justification for saying "F magic, I don't need it." Mostly the bonus feat though.

Doesn't lesser bariaur have racial HD?

[Anthrowhale]

SR, weapon proficiencies, the human bonus feat and skill points, and a solid in-character justification for saying "F magic, I don't need it." Mostly the bonus feat though.

Doesn't lesser bariaur have racial HD?

Nope. It's a pretty good LA+1: Outsider, SR 11+class level, Str+2/Cha-2, Quadruped, Medium, move 40', Darkvision 60', quadruped, Listen/Spot+2, Will saves+2 vs. Spells/Spell-likes.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Nope. It's a pretty good LA+1: Outsider, SR 11+class level, Str+2/Cha-2, Quadruped, Medium, move 40', Darkvision 60', quadruped, Listen/Spot+2, Will saves+2 vs. Spells/Spell-likes.

That does look solid. Still couldn't have done what I wanted with it.

[Lans]

I made a bunch of orc chargers

Warblade https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1594806 Warblades don't really add much damage outside of charging
Barbarian https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1594775
Fighter https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1594763
Soulborn https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1594805
Warrior https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=965250

[Anthrowhale]

I made a bunch of orc chargers

Warblade https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1594806 Warblades don't really add much damage outside of charging
Barbarian https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1594775
Fighter https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1594763
Soulborn https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1594805
Warrior https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=965250

A lance doesn't double damage unless you are mounted? You could potentially take advantage of heedless charge or power lunge on some of these builds.

[Anthrowhale]

Here's an Archer Build

Neraphim Ranger 2/Targeteer 4/Exotic Weapon Master 2

Str 8/Dex 8/Con 14/Int 14/Wis 18=16+2(levels)/Cha 8 (22 point buy)
Str 21/Dex 31/Con 16/Int 17/Wis 18=16+2(levels)/Cha 8 (after Polymorph Any Object(Kelvezu))
Fly 60'(good)

Unlike the Immune Charger, flaws are not needed.

1. Point Blank Shot
Ranger 2: Rapid Shot
Targeteer 1: Exotic Weapon Proficiency[Footbow]
Targeteer 1: Arrow Swarm
3. Precise Shot
Targeteer 2: Vital Aim
Targeteer 4: Improved Initiative
6. Weapon Focus[Footbow]
Exotic Weapon Master 1: Close Combat Shot
Exotic Weapon Master 2: Ranged Disarm



Composite[+5] Footbow+1+Shock 8.9K
Boots of Speed 12K
Polymorph Any Object [caster level 20] 1.6K //Same Kingdom, Same Class, Same Size
Mithril Buckler 1.015
Thistledown Padded .405
Cloak of Resistance +1 1K
Hat of Disguise 1.8K // so you aren't killed on sight. Note that true seeing reveals a Neraphim.
A selection of arrows


The attack routine uses Arrow Swarm (2 extra attacks, -5 to all attacks) and Haste (free action for any 10 rounds/day) to get an extra 3 attacks.

The attack bonus is 17=8(BAB)+10(Dexterity)+1(Haste)+1(Point Blank Shot)+1(Weapon Focus)+1(Enhancement)-5(Arrow Swarm)
The damage is 48=4.5(base)+10(Dexterity, from Vital Aim)+28(Kelvezu Sneak attack)+1(Point Blank Shot)+1(Enhancement)+3.5(Electricity)+Poison(1d6 Con Fort DC 17)
With a 17/17/17/17/12 attack routine this does an expected 204 damage vs AC 20. Against precision-immune enemies, this declines to an expected 72.25.

This build isn't immune like Immune Charger, but it does have pretty good defenses:
AC: 37=10(base)+15(Natural Armor)+10(Dexterity)+1(Thistledown)+1(Buckler)
Initiative: +14=10(Dexterity)+4(Initiative)
Hide&Move Silently are 31 using PHB II retraining.
Spot is 17.
Fort 14/Refl 15/Will 6

[MeimuHakurei]

I also want to give making a martial a try, focusing on physical combat over spells. However, it does use perhaps the most infamous D&D template of all time.

Sources:
-Player's Handbook
-Dungeon Master's Guide
-Monster Manual
-Complete Adventurer
-Web Enhancement: Hate of the Cobra
-Tome of Battle: The Book of Nine Swords
-Complete Divine
-Magic Item Compendium
-Unearthed Arcana

The character (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=1597184)

-Able to shift into a variety of forms from Tiny to Huge with 17 HD or less
-Can add Pounce and/or two claw attacks to adapted forms
-Posesses a good amount of skill ranks in stealth-related skills for various small or tiny shapes
-Can Wild Shape as a free action at will thanks to the template
-Darkvision due to Outsider Type
-Still has a number of other potentially viable combat forms (War Troll, Darktentacles etc.) from other monster manuals
-Cannot actually change into animal forms

EDIT: Added Flaws to get Master of Many Forms prereqs in

[Karl Aegis]

Belt of Giant Strength
This wide belt is made of thick leather and studded with iron. The belt adds to the wearer’s Strength score in the form of an enhancement bonus of +4 or +6. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#beltofGiantStrength)

Can we just stop this Belt of Giant Strength +2 thing that's going on? It doesn't exist. Quite frankly, it's alarming that more builds have this item than Gauntlets of Ogre Power.

[Kelb_Panthera]

Belt of Giant Strength
This wide belt is made of thick leather and studded with iron. The belt adds to the wearer’s Strength score in the form of an enhancement bonus of +4 or +6. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#beltofGiantStrength)

Can we just stop this Belt of Giant Strength +2 thing that's going on? It doesn't exist. Quite frankly, it's alarming that more builds have this item than Gauntlets of Ogre Power.

It's a direct, obvious conversion that's just as perfectly in line with the magic item creation guidelines as either the gauntlets at +2 or the belt at +4. This is just needless pedantry.

[eggynack]

It's a direct, obvious conversion that's just as perfectly in line with the magic item creation guidelines as either the gauntlets at +2 or the belt at +4. This is just needless pedantry.
Also essentially incorrect pedantry. The magic item compendium has the adding/improving common item effects rules, and one of the things there is +2/+4/+6 strength items for the arms, hands, or waist. So, not only can folks have as many +2 strength belts as they want; we can get the effect with no additional cost on existing magic belts.