Recognizing potential saves

[Pyramid Pug]

Sup folks, Pug here once again to pester you lot with some potato level questions.

Was chatting with my barbarian mate in preparation for our upcoming session and we were spitballin’ spells for my cleric to prepare.

Some stuff is obvious like healing word, spirit guardians, as well as guiding bolt (we’re in shadowfel, so radiant damage comes in handy). The issue tho, came about with control spells like banishment, hold person or blindness due to their saves.

Now if I’m facing a critter that’s big and/or heavily armoured I think it’s a safe bet that it’s gonna be strong and hardy, so stuff that targets constitution or strenght might be a bad idea. Conversely if the beastie is on smaller size, it’s probaly more spry so stuff that targets dex might be off the table.

Now I could be “that guy” and wiki stuff, but I don’t want to be “that guy” and bring meta knowledge to the playing table (not to mention my dm could simply change things), so my question is this, How do I go about roughly recognizing what an enemy might be good at saving or not in terms of charisma, wisdom and intelligence? And I mean this outside of scan like class abilities like the BM has.

In other words, how would you describe an enemy with high (or low) mental atributes as a dm, or how would you as a player ask the mental equivalent of “does this bloke look strong?”

Well.. I suppose I could wait and see if they cast spells, tho that sounds awfuly passive..

[Ninja_Prawn]

Well, they say you can't jusge a book by its cover, which means you can't judge a creature's mental stats from its physical appearance.

That said, monsters designed by WotC do tend to follow some patterns.

Expect aberrations (recognised by alien appearance and/or excessive tentacles) to have high Int and surprisingly high Cha scores.

Dragons almost universally have strong mental stats across the board. Usually Cha>Int>Wis. Dex is usually their weakest save.

Things that look bestial or monstrous, including fiends and elementals with that look, often have decent Wis but poor Cha and terrible Int.

Conversely, humanoid fiends, elementals and undead are likely to have strong Int and Cha scores, with moderate to decent Wis.

As a general rule monsters, especially at high CR, have saving throw proficiencies that cover their weaknesses rather than complement their strengths - many are counter-intuitive or even nonsensical. Expect big bosses to have no obvious weaknesses, even if they don't have Legendary Resistance.

[Cespenar]

You could try to roll an Arcana or whatever check to identify an enemy and weasel in a question about "do I know if this monster is actually as smart as a human?", but asking about specific stats would be too metagamey.

[MrStabby]

Everyone who enters combat is expected to contribute to combat in a meaningful way. Either through physical prowess or casting spells.

Step one is probably to look for armour. Heavy armour (at least if they are appearing to move unencumbered by it) is a sign of strength and that is probably what they are bringing to the table. Mental saves are more likely to be failed. Greatswords etc. are also a hint.

If they are unarmoured they may be dex focused or mental focused. Look at their weapons. If they are bearing a bow they are most likely to be dex focused and have weaker mental saves. Crossbow is less definite. A rapier or other finesse weapon is also likely to be a sign of high dexterity.

There are other elements you can look for. Books, scrolls etc. that show an interest in reading may suggest a higher than average intelligence. Holy symbols point towards high Wis or Cha (a check on Str may help to separate these). A nature theme is likely to be associated with wisdom. An arcane focus is also a sign for higher int or cha.

[Lombra]

As you said:
big = probably high con and str
Small = probably high dex
Fiendish = probably high int if not dumb
Fey = probably high cha if not dumb
Casts spells = probably high wis

[Ninja_Prawn]

Casts spells = probably high wis

The vast majority of innate spellcasting is sorcerous in nature, i.e. Cha-based. Not that monsters necessarily have optimised casting stats.

The thing with Wis is that almost all monsters have middling Wis scores. So for powerful fiends and dragons, it'll be their weakest mental stat, but for weak monsters and monstrosities it'll usually be their best mental stat. Whether or not they have proficiency in the save is impossible to guess.

[Lombra]

The vast majority of innate spellcasting is sorcerous in nature, i.e. Cha-based. Not that monsters necessarily have optimised casting stats.

The thing with Wis is that almost all monsters have middling Wis scores. So for powerful fiends and dragons, it'll be their weakest mental stat, but for weak monsters and monstrosities it'll usually be their best mental stat. Whether or not they have proficiency in the save is impossible to guess.

I could have sworn that despite the spellcasting type, most monsters that cast spells have a high wisdom save (not necessairly score)

[PhoenixPhyre]

Overall, Wisdom is rarely dumped but it's also rarely extremely high (by base score). High-CR creatures usually have WIS save proficiency, because it's one of the big 3. They also usually have high CON and CON save proficiency.

This is because WIS represents awareness of the world around you, including awareness of self. Normal creatures, including beasts, are pretty normal on those scores.

For wisdom, the best descriptor I can think of is "perceptive." Someone that sees what's going on around them and recognizes it for what it is has high wisdom. Note that wisdom, in particular, is unconnected with "making good decisions" or "spouting wise sayings" in this edition.

Edit: From a quick scan of the MM, the only creatures with +5 or better WIS scores are celestials. Basically every high-CR creature has WIS save proficiency, but they usually have proficiency in all the 3 majors. Their WIS scores are rarely higher than +3, and many are in the +1/+2 range.

[Pex]

It's not metagaming to guess an opponent's weakness. It's playing the game. You could be right, you could be wrong, but you're supposed to think and use logic. You're you.

Your character knows things you the player don't. It lives in the gameworld. Your character is not an ignorant imbecile, 8 IN or not. If you the player want to know something depending on what it is the DM could just tell you. More likely you will need to roll a check, usually Intelligence with applicable Knowledge Proficiency but others are possible depending on the situation. This is where the difference between an 8 and 18 IN matters as well as proficiency. 8 IN characters can still know things but not as much or remember as easily as 18 IN characters. That's fine.

If your DM never lets you know anything tell him your character knows things you the player don't. It lives in the gameworld. Players are allowed to know things. The check determines what the character knows or at least can remember at that particular moment, and the DC should be reasonable to the situation. If the DM still refuses get a new DM, but this is me being my stereotypical cynical self. Most DMs aren't so power hungry.

[Pyramid Pug]

Thanks everyone for the input, that helps put things into perspective.

Guess that if I can't outright tell or know I can default to wisdom saving throws, as beasties will all usually have decent but not overly high saves (unless it's a creature that relies on having a high perception, like say a predator type of critter).

You'd think something that flies would have good dex tho, never would have suspected that dragons have "poor" dex saves. So much for float like a butterfly, sting like a bee I guess :smallbiggrin:

This was actually prompted by a dragon. On the last session we were trying to escape one as we were battered by a fight that ended as the dragon descended. We were near a magically sealed door that the npcs in our party were frantically trying to get open, and the door finally started to open as the dragon was readying an attack. I tried to gain some time with a banish, but the DM said "yeah it passed the save. It seems like a really charismatic creature". That was what got me wondering "how do I even go about recognising a highly charismatic creature?"

We all made it out btw, up next was the barbarian who was nearest to the dragon and he charged at us all, barreling us through the door (which was too small for the dragon to get through... we hope).


I'm asking because I wanted to avoid knowledge or ability rolls as my character doesn't have particularly strong stats in that regard, and he also doesn't have class specific stuff that can help (like some hunter class skills or divination spells). At best I can frame it in terms of a religious question as he is a cleric, like if facing an undead or a fiend "Does my character remember anything from sunday class on how to best deal with this dood?"

That said unlike me the characters is a seasoned adventurer and while he might not know what he's facing, he is well acquainted with the tools at his disposition and has experience with creatures that resist him and creatures that don't. I don't expect the exact information I'd get from a spell, class skill or int roll, but I'd assume my character would have some sort of judgement born from adventuring.


-- Note to self: Make a skill monkey gnome called Wiki. :smallbiggrin: --

[Ninja_Prawn]

I guess I should point out: most dragons don't have prof in Str or Int saves, so that's a weakness, particularly in younger dragons. As they get older though, their strength and intelligence stats grow more than their dexterity (which usually doesn't grow at all), to the point where it's a reasonable choice to just throw Dex saves at them (given how much easier it is to gain access to abilities that target Dex in the first place).

Abilities that target Int are so rare that it's basically not worth considering.

[Pyramid Pug]

I guess I should point out: most dragons don't have prof in Str or Int saves, so that's a weakness, particularly in younger dragons. As they get older though, their strength and intelligence stats grow more than their dexterity (which usually doesn't grow at all), to the point where it's a reasonable choice to just throw Dex saves at them (given how much easier it is to gain access to abilities that target Dex in the first place).

Abilities that target Int are so rare that it's basically not worth considering.

Yes well.. weakness is a bit of an overstatement, more like "of all the bad choices, this one is the least bad" lol

Don't think I have anything in my repertoire that targets dex control wise tho.. that's more the area of druids yeh? Like entangles and whatnot..

[PhoenixPhyre]

Yes well.. weakness is a bit of an overstatement, more like "of all the bad choices, this one is the least bad" lol

Don't think I have anything in my repertoire that targets dex control wise tho.. that's more the area of druids yeh? Like entangles and whatnot..

Dex saves are only very rarely control effects.

General pattern:

STR: physical control (entangle, grapple)
DEX: damage (usually save-for-half)
CON: physical conditions, Thunder damage, poison
WIS: mental control/conditions
INT: Illusions, maze, mind-flayers (there are a couple exceptions, but INT saves are rare)
CHA: loss-of-self effects (possession, polymorph?), banishment

[Ninja_Prawn]

polymorph?

Question mark is right: polymorph is Wis. It probably should be Cha, but then, a lot of Wis saves should probably be Cha.

@Pyramid Pug, Dex is used for anything you could potentially dodge out of the way of, or where ducking for cover might protect you a bit. Hence, it's the most common save most people will face. Lightning bolts, sacred flames, blade barriers, disintegrates, cave-ins, slipping off the edges of cliffs, Open Hand Technique, caltrops, hand grenades... there are loads of ways to inflict Dex saves on people.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Question mark is right: polymorph is Wis. It probably should be Cha, but then, a lot of Wis saves should probably be Cha.

Yeah. I was working from memory there. If I had to do it, a bunch would change as well.

[Pyramid Pug]

So if I'd use a single word to describe saves..

Strength- Stand, the creature won't budge no matter what.
Dexterity- React, the creature is in motion when others haven't even begun to realize something is up
Constitution- Endure, the creature is a juggernaut and nothing thrown at it seems to stick
Intelligence- Understand, the creature's mind realises inconsistencies and paradoxes keeping its wits against illusions and mind games
Wisdom- Feel. The creature awareness picks up minute breaks in patterns and processes them subconsciously leading to a prenatural (or supernatural even) intuition.
Charisma- Will. The creature asserts itself against that that would visit unwanted change upon it. You won't do it, I won't let it, it won't pass!

That about right?

[PhoenixPhyre]

So if I'd use a single word to describe saves..

Strength- Stand, the creature won't budge no matter what.
Dexterity- React, the creature is in motion when others haven't even begun to realize something is up
Constitution- Endure, the creature is a juggernaut and nothing thrown at it seems to stick
Intelligence- Understand, the creature's mind realises inconsistencies and paradoxes keeping its wits against illusions and mind games
Wisdom- Feel. The creature awareness picks up minute breaks in patterns and processes them subconsciously leading to a prenatural (or supernatural even) intuition.
Charisma- Will. The creature asserts itself against that that would visit unwanted change upon it. You won't do it, I won't let it, it won't pass!

That about right?

That works for me.