Summonable Demons & Devils questions

[Vorpal Crowbar]

I know the MM says that some Demons have a chance of summoning a 2nd demon, and the 2nd can't summoned demon can't summon a 3rd demon. For instance: Chasme, has a 30% chance of summoning a 2nd Chasme, but the 2nd Chasme can't summon a 3rd.

Is there a ruling on Player characters summoning a greater demon, Like a Chasme, and having it try at a 30% chance to Summon a 2nd Chasme?


VC

[Envyus]

I know the MM says that some Demons have a chance of summoning a 2nd demon, and the 2nd can't summoned demon can't summon a 3rd demon. For instance: Chasme, has a 30% chance of summoning a 2nd Chasme, but the 2nd Chasme can't summon a 3rd.

Is there a ruling on Player characters summoning a greater demon, Like a Chasme, and having it try at a 30% chance to Summon a 2nd Chasme?


VC

It should be able to. As unlike the rules for Demons summoning allies there are none against it.

[JackPhoenix]

Note that the second fiend isn't under your control. Or the summoning fiend's control.

[Unoriginal]

Note that the second fiend isn't under your control. Or the summoning fiend's control.

This.

You're just getting an independent Fiend to show up.

[Ivor_The_Mad]

I think that would work. I see no reason why the 1st demon cant summon a 2nd one because the demon you summon is not the 2nd demon. Thats how I rule it.

[Vorpal Crowbar]

This.

You're just getting an independent Fiend to show up.

- Maybe - according to the MM p54 "...acts as an ally of its summoner..."
So Chasme #2 would be an ally of Chasme #1. So I would need to be allies with Chasme #1 to make allies of Chasme #2



If I hit Chasme #1 with Rod of Rulership, before it summoned Chasme #2
If I hit both with rod of Rulership
If a Party member hit Chasme #1 with Charm monster, before it summoned Chasme #2



then both would be allies its seems,

VC

[Sigreid]

I know in AD&D the summon another demon feature represented the demon calling in a favor. That was why the second couldn't, or rather wouldn't, summon another demon. You dont usually obligate yourself to a favor in order to grant a favor to another.

[Unoriginal]

- Maybe - according to the MM p54 "...acts as an ally of its summoner..."
So Chasme #2 would be an ally of Chasme #1. So I would need to be allies with Chasme #1 to make allies of Chasme #2



If I hit Chasme #1 with Rod of Rulership, before it summoned Chasme #2
If I hit both with rod of Rulership
If a Party member hit Chasme #1 with Charm monster, before it summoned Chasme #2



then both would be allies its seems,

VC

Well, think about it like that:

You're summoned by an ally, and when you show up they're obviously being controlled by a wizard.

Do you consider the wizard your ally?

[JackPhoenix]

- Maybe - according to the MM p54 "...acts as an ally of its summoner..."
So Chasme #2 would be an ally of Chasme #1. So I would need to be allies with Chasme #1 to make allies of Chasme #2



If I hit Chasme #1 with Rod of Rulership, before it summoned Chasme #2
If I hit both with rod of Rulership
If a Party member hit Chasme #1 with Charm monster, before it summoned Chasme #2



then both would be allies its seems,

Translated from Abyssal:

Chasme 2: Hey, Bob, long time no see... prime material, eh? What's up?
Chasme 1: Ah, you know how it is... you think you've got all of the copies of that tome with your true name destroyed, and then some mortals summons you and starts ordering you around.
Chasme 2: Man, that sucks. That's him? Should I take care of him?
Chasme 1: Well, he ordered me to tell you to obey him.
Chasme 2: You know you're not my boss, right?
Chasme 1: Yeah, I do... but he doesn't. So... I order you to obey that guy.
Chasme 2: Nah, screw that... I'm gonna suck that idiot dry. You'll owe me for that.

By the way, the blood circle won't protect you from the second demon.

[PhantomSoul]

- Maybe - according to the MM p54 "...acts as an ally of its summoner..."
So Chasme #2 would be an ally of Chasme #1. So I would need to be allies with Chasme #1 to make allies of Chasme #2



If I hit Chasme #1 with Rod of Rulership, before it summoned Chasme #2
If I hit both with rod of Rulership
If a Party member hit Chasme #1 with Charm monster, before it summoned Chasme #2



then both would be allies its seems,

VC

I don't think they meant "independent" as in "without allies"; it was being contrasted with "control". The second demon may or may not consider the Wizard an ally (it's the controller of an ally, but not necessarily an ally -- maybe even presumed not to be an ally depending on the DM!), but crucially the second demon isn't controlled by the Wizard even if the Wizard controls the first demon.