Variant Rule: Negative Hit Points

[Tzun]

Hello everyone, I'd like to get the playground's thoughts and feedback on a new variant rule I'll be using in an upcoming campaign. My motivation for implementing this rule is that I find it unsatisfactory that characters can act with 100% efficiency at 1 hit point and then become unconscious at 0 hp. I feel there should be some degradation in their abilities as they lose hp. Now I know that this could spark debate about what hit points really mean and what its supposed to model, but please save this debate for another thread. I'm looking for feedback on any potential issues you foresee, any modifications to the rules you may make, any alternative systems or rules, etc. The rules are as follows:

Characters can have negative hit points if they sustain damage greater than their current hit points. For example, if your character currently has 4 hit points and then sustains 10 points of damage, they have -6 hit points. Dropping to 0 or negative hit points does not in and of itself knock the character unconscious.

If the character accumulates enough damage that it would put them at equal to or greater than the negative of their maximum hit points, the character dies. For example, if the character's maximum hit points is 15 and they currently have -7 hit points and they then accumulate damage equal to 8 hit points or greater, they die.

Every time the character's hit points drop from positive values to 0 or negative values or sustains damage while at negative values, they gain a level of exhaustion. If they sustain a critical hit while in negative territory, they gain 2 levels of exhaustion. Standard Exhaustion rules apply, save for this exception: level 5 exhaustion knocks the character unconscious causing them to make death saving throws. Any healing received while at level 5 exhaustion will also decrease exhaustion level to 4. Standard death saving throw rules apply, save for one exception: when you roll a 20, your character reduces 1 level of exhaustion instead of going to 1 hit point.

Thanks for your help!

[Cespenar]

Sounds nice at early levels, but it could make the PCs very beefy at higher levels. Especially benefits casters, where their effective precious HP pool doubles, and they could just lob spell after spell without being much affected by the disadvantages of exhaustion.

Maybe throw in a line that goes "to cast a spell while on negative hit points, the caster must make a Con check of DC(your choice)".

And also think about a way to slightly decrease normal HPs.

[Laserlight]

I did something similar. If you went to 0hp you had to make CON saves (as caster's Concentration) to stay conscious, and you gained a level of exhaustion, and would die at 6 levels even if you never passed out. In one campaign it had very little effect, because we seldom hit 0hp (although one foolhardy PC did hit zero three times in one session, and ”three levels of exhaustion” motivated him to be more careful). In the other campaign, people who hit zero usually withdrew from the fight until they got significant healing.

[Spore]

0) Scrap the system and have a maximum negative HP equal to your Con score.
1) give a penalty equal to the negative HP.
2) Spells should require a concentration save with the penalty added in.

[ShadowImmor]

I think it sounds like a good idea, I've got a slight variant rule myself which works thusly -

If you take half your hit point Maximum in a single attack, you gain 1 level of exhaustion and make a Low DC (12 or 13) con Save, if you fail, you get a second point of exhaustion, worked off in the normal way. This is designed to make the characters and players feel more vulnerable early on, but as they get tougher and gain more HP it will happen less and less and they'll feel more powerful.

Though if you don't mind people stealing yours I might work a variant of that into another campaign I run in the future.

Dan

[Tzun]

Good ideas guys. I didn't think about the caster abilities but that's a good idea using CON save to cast spells. I think I'd even add that you can't concentrate on spells while negative. Massive damage is another opportunity to add the exhaustion mechanic.

Limiting negative hp to CON score would be fine for first few levels but would be rather harsh at higher levels. You could be one shotted with a failed fireball save if you were low on hp whereas in the standard rules since you would need to exceed max hp to die outright you'd be ok.

Feel free to steal any or all ideas!

[KorvinStarmast]

Hello everyone, I'd like to get the playground's thoughts and feedback on a new variant rule I'll be using in an upcoming campaign. My motivation for implementing this rule is that I find it unsatisfactory that characters can act with 100% efficiency at 1 hit point and then become unconscious at 0 hp. Don't "fix" what isn't broken; that's my suggestion. HP are not meat.

Please read up on what's up with HP do what they do as a Game Mechanic (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/q/108454/22566)intended to aid in play. I did some research on that, and what 5e is doing is making play less complicated. There's a good reason for that, which is called Playability.

Then again, if you want more fiddly bits, and you all have fun with that, then Lay on MacDuff. :smallcool:

[Ganymede]

I just have PCs retain their failed death saves until they take a short rest. It makes being at 0 HP much scarier and players are much more motivated to prevent it from happening.

[Tzun]

I just have PCs retain their failed death saves until they take a short rest. It makes being at 0 HP much scarier and players are much more motivated to prevent it from happening.

That would definitely make things scarier, but I also want to model a more graduated decline of abilities as you lose hp, not a sudden knockout where your only options at that point is to hope you make your death save or have someone else bring you back. This approach would allow the players some more leeway in correcting the situation themselves. When the exhaustion starts piling up they know they're in deep trouble and better start taking appropriate actions such as healing themselves (in my game anyone can expend 1 hit die as an action using a healers kit), disengaging, dodging, hiding, getting the hell out, what have you.

[Eric Diaz]

That would definitely make things scarier, but I also want to model a more graduated decline of abilities as you lose hp, not a sudden knockout where your only options at that point is to hope you make your death save or have someone else bring you back. This approach would allow the players some more leeway in correcting the situation themselves. When the exhaustion starts piling up they know they're in deep trouble and better start taking appropriate actions such as healing themselves (in my game anyone can expend 1 hit die as an action using a healers kit), disengaging, dodging, hiding, getting the hell out, what have you.

That's a worthy goal IMO. And negative HP seems like a good way to do that. Also nullifies the "whack a mole" effect.

I have a different (or complementary) take on that, FWIW:

If you are reduced to 0 hit points, make a death saving throw. Failure means you must tick one of three boxes: unconscious, disabled (which means incapacitated, disadvantage to everything, something from 3e, or whatever you like) or dying. When you tick all three, you're dead. Whatever rules you used for immediate death still apply (-10 HP, -CON HP, massive damage, etc).

You make no further death saving throws, unless: a) you are dying, b) you're incapacitated and decide to take any action, or c) you take more damage.

Success in this saving throw has no immediate effect (there are no "success boxes"), failure makes you tick another box. There is no stabilization or gaining 1 HP without healing, although you can heal yourself if conscious, or wake up unconscious (either one taking 1d4 rounds with help). You still take a while to be ok: for 1d4 hours, you have disadvantage in all rolls, including death saving throws.

http://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com.br/2015/04/death-saving-throws-quick-house-rule.html

[Tzun]

That's a worthy goal IMO. And negative HP seems like a good way to do that. Also nullifies the "whack a mole" effect.

I have a different (or complementary) take on that, FWIW:

If you are reduced to 0 hit points, make a death saving throw. Failure means you must tick one of three boxes: unconscious, disabled (which means incapacitated, disadvantage to everything, something from 3e, or whatever you like) or dying. When you tick all three, you're dead. Whatever rules you used for immediate death still apply (-10 HP, -CON HP, massive damage, etc).

You make no further death saving throws, unless: a) you are dying, b) you're incapacitated and decide to take any action, or c) you take more damage.

Success in this saving throw has no immediate effect (there are no "success boxes"), failure makes you tick another box. There is no stabilization or gaining 1 HP without healing, although you can heal yourself if conscious, or wake up unconscious (either one taking 1d4 rounds with help). You still take a while to be ok: for 1d4 hours, you have disadvantage in all rolls, including death saving throws.


That's an interesting system, simple but still have options. Might be worth testing out.

Questions:
1. Unconscious means your knocked out but stable and dont have to roll death save?
2. Disabled means your incapacitated and disadvantage on everything. But the incapacitated conditionmeans you can't take any actions or reactions? How would you be able to do anything?
3. Dying means unconscious and rolling death saves?

[Laserlight]

What I'd actually like is for damage to reduce your movement distance, attack ability, and AC. A full on reworking would no longer be D&D, of course, but perhaps when you hit "Bloodied" you suffer a penalty to one or more of those categories. Roll 2d6: each 1-2 means you're - 1/3 of your normal movement; each 3-4 means you lose half your proficiency on attacks; each 5-6 means -2 to your AC. Something like that.

[Tzun]

Ok reading through these comments I've come up with a simpler ruleset which still does what I want it to do and does not even require negative hit points. Here's how it goes:

- Whenever your character is dropped to 0 hp, you instead increase your level of exhaustion by 1 and your hp are set to1.
- if you started at lvl 4 exhaustion before being dropped to 0 hp, you are knocked unconscious and start making death saving throws.
- if you somehow started at lvl 5 exhaustion prior to being dropped to 0, you are now dead.

And I would add these rules to exhaustion:
- at lvl 2 exhaustion, you can no longer concentrate on spells.
- at lvl 3 exhaustion, you must succeed on CON save to cast spells. DC=5+ spell lvl (cantrip=0). Remember this save will be rolled at disadvantage due to exhaustion lvl.