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tedcahill2
2018-05-18, 09:37 AM
When looking at the core attributes in D&D the physical attributes are very well defined and reflective of your character.
Power > Strength
Finesse > Dexterity
Resistance > Constitution

The dynamic for mental attributes is totally different though, and I think that's kind of a shame because thinking about attributes in terms of power, finesse, and resistance gives a really clear picture of what strengths and weaknesses on a core level. Unfortunately Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma don't fit the Power, Finesse, Resistance structure.

Charisma is kind of power, but only in social situations, but intelligence is more classically what mental power would be defined as. Wisdom is sort of a hybrid of finesse (in things like perception) and resistance for Will saves and the like.

But as I was thinking about this structure I realized the major issue is that Charisma and Intelligence are sort of vying for the role of mental power. When I think about that fact Charisma is clearly the loser for the power role on mental attributes, but it also doesn't make sense as a finesse attribute. I think Charisma needs to be replaced entirely and social skills should instead be based on a new statistic that better represents mental finesse.

Now I'm not talking about retrofitting this into the D&D system, I'm just brainstorming an idea. Does Charisma even make sense as a mental attribute if using the power, finesse, resistance structure for character attributes?

PhoenixPhyre
2018-05-18, 10:30 AM
Using that model, maybe not.

But Charisma is, for me, force of personality. It's not attractiveness--ugly people can be charismatic. It's not rhetoric ability--I've known people who were uneducated and couldn't speak "well" who would knock you off your feet as they walked into a room and who could get everyone to follow them.

I break the mental stats down as

INT: Knowledge of facts, memory, logic. Ability to reason consciously through things.
WIS: Perception, knowledge of self, intuition. Ability to see how things are, to separate self from other. The ability not to bend to someone else's will.
CHA: force of personality, will. The counterpart to WIS--it's externally focused instead of internally focuses. It's the ability to get something else to bend to you.

There's still a lot of overlap, but that's inevitable.

Honest Tiefling
2018-05-18, 10:42 AM
I think the fact that charisma keeps being called will, but the actual saving throw in both 3rd and usually 5th is typically WISDOM means that the system is a little broke. Through PhoenixPhyre does distinguish the two, I don't feel it is as simple or intuitive as the physical stats. How can strongly willed people crumple in the face of external threats?

PhoenixPhyre
2018-05-18, 10:48 AM
I think the fact that charisma keeps being called will, but the actual saving throw in both 3rd and usually 5th is typically WISDOM means that the system is a little broke. Through PhoenixPhyre does distinguish the two, I don't feel it is as simple or intuitive as the physical stats. How can strongly willed people crumple in the face of external threats?

I agree that the two saves are muddled.

"Strongly willed" is too broad, IMO. You can be hard to dissuade (CHA), you can be perceptive as to the falseness of the threat (WIS), or many other such things. You can be stubborn but easy to trick; or easy to convince with accurate threats but able to shrug off false threats like water.

aaron819
2018-05-18, 10:52 AM
Charisma is about as abstract as everything in D&D is. I wouldn't bother thinking too hard about it, and just take it for what it is: a stat used to tell people what to do or blow stuff up if you're a sorcerer

aaron819
2018-05-18, 10:55 AM
I should note that that comment wasn't me hating on D&D or charisma in any way. Everything in D&D is abstract, and that's ok. It isn't meant to simulate anything remotely resembling the real world.

Thrudd
2018-05-18, 11:08 AM
The D&D attributes have been redefined over the years to fit a more simulationist model while keeping the same names as the original game, where they are really abstract and limited in application. Four of them were primarily to determine what class a character was suited for. The other two (Con and Cha), determined abilities universal to all characters (hit points and leadership of followers).

Charisma did three things, basically- adjust how npc's react to parley attempts, and determine how many followers you could lead and how loyal they were.

Now they have tacked on whole new forms of magic that don't/ought not to have anything to do with leadership or social ability.

Really, for the way the game works now, it would be better to rename and reorganize the attributes so they make more sense- but this won't happen because of tradition.

Honest Tiefling
2018-05-18, 11:13 AM
"Strongly willed" is too broad, IMO. You can be hard to dissuade (CHA), you can be perceptive as to the falseness of the threat (WIS), or many other such things. You can be stubborn but easy to trick; or easy to convince with accurate threats but able to shrug off false threats like water.

I'm not saying you are wrong, but I am saying you are definitely hitting the nail on the head. Why will needs to be connected to perception (which is usually a god stat in most games) is a little beyond me.

then again, I also wonder why DnD needs a common sense stat. I feel like that is just inviting trouble. I think it got dropped for 5th edition, possibly even 4th.

hymer
2018-05-18, 11:16 AM
When looking at the core attributes in D&D the physical attributes are very well defined and reflective of your character.
Power > Strength
Finesse > Dexterity
Resistance > Constitution

These aren't actually easier to distinguish from each other than the mental attributes. Supremely agile people are also quite strong. People with bad overall health cannot have olympic class wight-lifting capability. And so on.
And when you improve one of these things through training or maturing, the other two improve as well, albeit to a smaller degree; at least until you reach extreme levels.

So I don't think there's any particular reason to focus on the intricacies of the mental attributes (which, by the way, are also influenced by the physical ones, and vice versa).

Jay R
2018-05-18, 11:24 AM
The Charisma stat has been used since 1974 to represent leadership and influence. It works fine.

If you have a model for how the stats should work, and Charisma doesn't fit that model, then the model is incorrect.

Specifically, you are trying to make the mental stats work like the physical stats. Your analysis that it doesn't work is absolutely correct. But that doesn't lead to the conclusion that the stats are wrong.

The correct conclusion is that the physical model doesn't model the mental stats.

hamishspence
2018-05-18, 11:31 AM
These aren't actually easier to distinguish from each other than the mental attributes. Supremely agile people are also quite strong. People with bad overall health cannot have olympic class wight-lifting capability. And so on.
And when you improve one of these things through training or maturing, the other two improve as well, albeit to a smaller degree; at least until you reach extreme levels.

There can be huge gaps though.

A weightlifter can be very unagile, with a very poor aim, and very clumsy fingers - these three, combined, are Dexterity.

hymer
2018-05-18, 11:47 AM
@ hamishspence: Dexterity is also balance, something you'll need to avoid unpleasant accidents when lifting hundreds of pounds into the air over your own head. I think you'll find that serious weightlifters are considerably more coordinated than the average person.
To put it more theoretically: Strength isn't just the raw power of your muscle fibres. It's also very much the coordination of their use. And that's what dexterity is supposed to be about.

Edit: Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you can't be strong and clumsy (though the stereotype is a lot more theatrical than real). But the capabilities of one's body is not compartmentalized into three, neat categories at all.

Second Edit: Big guy trying to thread a needle (http://www.bbc.com/news/av/newsbeat-44169222/eddie-hall-record-breaking-strong-man-does-delicate-tasks). :smallbiggrin:

Quertus
2018-05-18, 01:02 PM
Does Charisma make sense in a Power / Finesse / Resistance model? Well, White Wolf, in whose products I first encountered such a model, certainly thought so. For them, Charisma was social Power.

The question you should be asking, I think, is, does using a Power / Finesse / Resistance model make sense in D&D?

Fable Wright
2018-05-18, 02:21 PM
I don't understand the question. Resistance is Wisdom. Finesse is Intelligence. Power is Charisma.

Dexterity is knowing your body, its capacities and limits, muscle memory, and ability to rapidly perform the right motion on a trigger.

Intelligence is knowing facts, your academic limits, rote procedures for things, and the ability to rapidly recall the correct information on a trigger.

Dexterity is arguably a power stat like strength, or moreso, since it can determine to hit, initiative, damage, armor class, and more. You've noticed intelligence in the same boat.

Charisma, like Strength, is often not strictly necessary except in a few cases, but just applying it to any given problem tends to produce better results than you might initially expect.

Strength and Charisma are raw force. Intelligence and Dexterity are finesse, and can arguably do everything. Wisdom and Constitution are resistance.

Where's the inconsistency?

GeometryGuru
2018-05-18, 02:38 PM
These attributes are more abstract, being mental attributes as opposed to physical ones, so they are more difficult to really comprehend. This is how I think about it:

Intelligence is mental prowess and the ability of a character to improvise and assess situations. That's why wizards use it because spell casting require a lot of planning on their part.

Wisdom is the strength of the character's moral compass and the ability for them to perceive the world around them. So high wisdom attributes would mean that they are less likely to be tricked and they firm in their perception of good and evil.

Charisma is the overall likeableness of the character. It sort of determines the kind of personality the character has, whether it is like a social butterfly or and introvert.

LibraryOgre
2018-05-18, 04:23 PM
Part of the confusion is that "strong willed" can mean two things. But I think, using the OPs categories, Charisma makes perfect sense.

Resistance = Constitution and Wisdom. These are your ability to resist external forces.

Finesse = Dexterity and Intelligence. This is your ability to accurately manipulate things within your reach. A high intelligence isn't your ability to change things, but an ability to rapidly and accurately process things you encounter.

Power = Strength and Charisma. This is your ability to affect the world. Dexterity and Intelligence let you place your force accurately, but the force that moves objects is Strength, and the force that moves minds is Charisma.

Knightofvictory
2018-05-18, 07:17 PM
I don't know why so many get confused about CHA. I think its pretty well defined in game, and by archetypes like the Bard and Paladin. I've known plenty of people in real life, not particularly book smart, or wise (poor real life decisions), that make friends effortlessly and get people to constantly do things for them... even against their own interests. People just listen and react to them in a natural way that's hard to explain. Conversely, I'm sure we all know people that are smart and 'wise' that are shy, and can barely convince someone to hold a door open for them. CHA is basically confidence/self esteem/ social manipulation/ inner determination all rolled up together. A little overlap with the other mental stats, but you could say the same of STR and CON.

In D&D it is further stressed that INT is a learned, 'bookish' strength, while CHA is an inherent, 'natural' mental strength, and WIS is an 'in-tune, self aware' ability. Though this probably isn't quite true in real life, I think it's a pretty good abstraction

Honest Tiefling
2018-05-18, 07:40 PM
In D&D it is further stressed that INT is a learned, 'bookish' strength, while CHA is an inherent, 'natural' mental strength, and WIS is an 'in-tune, self aware' ability. Though this probably isn't quite true in real life, I think it's a pretty good abstraction

Except in this example, bards and paladins outside of third edition can gleefully dump that wisdom stat if they don't mind some mind control. How do you have a paladin who isn't the least bit self-aware? Heck, how do clerics keep not being chosen from people who are inherently strong with their minds? I mean, you probably have a few blackguards in the making right there, but I think if builds often lead to dumping a particular stat that should be there ICly, something went horribly wrong with the system.

At least when wizards dump charisma, it makes perfect sense!

Telok
2018-05-18, 07:55 PM
Back in ye olden days there were penalties to charisma checks with people not of the character's own race/species.

Trolls aren't uncharismatic, they just don't come across well to the types of people that they eat.

Grod_The_Giant
2018-05-18, 08:22 PM
Power > Charisma. How much force of personality you have, how well you are able to project yourself and sway others.
Finesse > Intelligence. How fast your mind works, how well you learn new information and apply it in new ways.
Resistance > Wisdom. How much self-control you have, how well you are able to see through or otherwise resist both inner and outer influences.

Pretty straightforwards.

You could also go the Exalted route, and treat social abilities as a third category, giving you three physical stats (Str/Dex/Con), three mental (academic knowledge/common sense/observational skills), and three social (force of personality/ability to use words/outwards presentation)

Quertus
2018-05-18, 08:55 PM
You could also go the Exalted route, and treat social abilities as a third category, giving you three physical stats (Str/Dex/Con), three mental (academic knowledge/common sense/observational skills), and three social (force of personality/ability to use words/outwards presentation)

... What? Ok, I think part of my confusion is that you switched the order around, but...

Str/Dex/Con - sure. I'm trying to open a stubborn chest, Str helps me power through, Dex helps me finesse it open, Con helps me not get hurt in the process.

academic knowledge/common sense/observational skills - what do you even view an academic challenge as looking like here? Say... I'm trying to play chess, academic knowledge helps me know how pieces move... Then what?

force of personality/ability to use words/outwards presentation - I'm in a debate, outwards presentation is, sadly, all many hear, ability to use words let me make finer points, force of personality keeps me from being distracted by other ideas?

Grod_The_Giant
2018-05-18, 09:08 PM
... What? Ok, I think part of my confusion is that you switched the order around, but...

Str/Dex/Con - sure. I'm trying to open a stubborn chest, Str helps me power through, Dex helps me finesse it open, Con helps me not get hurt in the process.

academic knowledge/common sense/observational skills - what do you even view an academic challenge as looking like here? Say... I'm trying to play chess, academic knowledge helps me know how pieces move... Then what?

force of personality/ability to use words/outwards presentation - I'm in a debate, outwards presentation is, sadly, all many hear, ability to use words let me make finer points, force of personality keeps me from being distracted by other ideas?

It's been a while; I might have expressed them badly. Per the rulebook,

Charisma represents a character’s ability to express and articulate his beliefs or commands, convincing others to see things his way or follow his orders. It’s used primarily in social influence when a character wishes to make a sincere argument that he genuinely believes in
Manipulation is a character’s innate talent for deception, passing off lies as the truth, or simply telling people what he knows they want to hear. It’s used primarily in social influence when a character wishes to make a false argument... as well as any argument where the character is purely trying to evoke a desired response rather than to express his own feelings or outlook
Appearance is a measure of a character’s striking looks and his ability to use them... Appearance is used when a character wishes to influence others through looks, beauty, overwhelming presence, or first impressions rather than reasoned debate or emotional manipulation.
Perception rates both the raw quality of a character’s senses and his faculty for comprehending what he perceives*
Intelligence measures a character’s ability to think logically and rationally
Wits rates a character’s intuition, common sense, and ability to react quickly to new circumstances or while under fire.

Thrudd
2018-05-19, 12:09 AM
The key is that none of the D&D abilities accurately model anything realistically. We shouldn't try to make too much sense of them as anything other than game features meant to balance different sorts of characters.

SodaQueen
2018-05-19, 12:21 AM
Honestly, I feel like Wisdom is the one that makes the least sense. It's perception, but also willpower, but also intuition. Those are all pretty distinct. Even Dexterity, another catch-all at least has consistent individual parts. And it doesn't involve being wise! That's Intelligence, if anything.

Lorsa
2018-05-19, 04:00 AM
If you like the power/finesse/resistance (PFR) idea, you should look into nWoD. They have a total of 9 attributes, divided into 3 categories (mental/physical/social), all following the PFR system.

So, in a way you are right. Charisma doesn't make sense as a mental stat. It's a social stat. D&D might call it mental at times, but it really isn't. In D&D, Int is your mental power and finesse, while Will is more your mental resistance, and Cha is basically all three put into one social stat.

Corneel
2018-05-19, 06:00 AM
Honestly, I feel like Wisdom is the one that makes the least sense. It's perception, but also willpower, but also intuition. Those are all pretty distinct. Even Dexterity, another catch-all at least has consistent individual parts. And it doesn't involve being wise! That's Intelligence, if anything.
I think it's a result of D&D being at the lower end in terms of number of basic attributes as regards RPGs (both TTRPG & CRPG), so it's hard to avoid lumping together characteristics that don't seem to have a lot in common. The only RPG I can remember that had less basic attributes than D&D is early DSA, which had Courage, Strength, Charisma, Intelligence and Dexterity.

Altair_the_Vexed
2018-05-19, 07:41 AM
Part of the confusion is that "strong willed" can mean two things. But I think, using the OPs categories, Charisma makes perfect sense.

Resistance = Constitution and Wisdom. These are your ability to resist external forces.

Finesse = Dexterity and Intelligence. This is your ability to accurately manipulate things within your reach. A high intelligence isn't your ability to change things, but an ability to rapidly and accurately process things you encounter.

Power = Strength and Charisma. This is your ability to affect the world. Dexterity and Intelligence let you place your force accurately, but the force that moves objects is Strength, and the force that moves minds is Charisma.

Basically just came here to post that - in my d20 hack that I'm perpetually working on, that's how I explain lay out and the stats.

(One minor difference, I put CON & WIS down as "Health", and explain it in terms of toughness, endurance and so on.)

gkathellar
2018-05-19, 08:03 AM
It makes sense, within D&D's paradigm, to have an ability score that governs Talky Stuff.

Otherwise, no.

Drowicorn
2018-05-19, 08:43 AM
I think part of the problem with CHA is that even the game designers had differing opinions about it.

We all agree that Charisma is more force of personality than beauty, but I remember seeing stuff in some splat books that seemed to believe otherwise. I think it was the 3.5 Book of Vile Darkness that had the Maiming Strike feat, which said you could do Charisma damage to someone by giving them a nasty scar on their face, or something like that.

I have no clue how that really worked. But that whole book was pretty bad anyways.

hymer
2018-05-19, 09:06 AM
We all agree that Charisma is more force of personality than beauty, but I remember seeing stuff in some splat books that seemed to believe otherwise. I think it was the 3.5 Book of Vile Darkness that had the Maiming Strike feat, which said you could do Charisma damage to someone by giving them a nasty scar on their face, or something like that.
No splat required. From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm):

Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness.
My bolding.

Edit: In 1st edition AD&D, Charisma is described thusly in the PHB:

Charisma is a measure of the character's combined physical attractiveness, persuasiveness, and personal magnetism. A generally non-beautiful character can have high charisma due to strong measures of the other two aspects of charisma.

My 2nd edition PHB is a little ambivalent about it:

[Charisma] is not a reflection of physical attractiveness, although attractiveness certainly plays a role.
But it seems to say that the attraction charisma supplies isn't physical.

Player's Option introduced subabilities. Charisma breaks down into Leadership and Appearance.

[Appearance] determines the physical presence and attractiveness of the character. A character with a high Appearance score would be handsome or beautiful, perhaps even famous for outstanding looks (such as Helen of Troy).

Knaight
2018-05-20, 12:45 AM
I think it's a result of D&D being at the lower end in terms of number of basic attributes as regards RPGs (both TTRPG & CRPG), so it's hard to avoid lumping together characteristics that don't seem to have a lot in common. The only RPG I can remember that had less basic attributes than D&D is early DSA, which had Courage, Strength, Charisma, Intelligence and Dexterity.

I'd call it more middling than low - there's a lot of games with 4 or 5, not to mention Tristat (which has exactly as many as the name implies). There's going to be some amount of lumping regardless of how many are used, it's just a matter of figuring out how you want to do that for a particular game.

Jay R
2018-05-20, 09:25 AM
I think it's a result of D&D being at the lower end in terms of number of basic attributes as regards RPGs (both TTRPG & CRPG), so it's hard to avoid lumping together characteristics that don't seem to have a lot in common. The only RPG I can remember that had less basic attributes than D&D is early DSA, which had Courage, Strength, Charisma, Intelligence and Dexterity.

TOON has Muscles, Zip, Smarts, and Chutzpah, which are close to Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence and Charisma.

Constitution is not needed in a game in which your character walks back onscreen three minutes after losing all hit points, falling down, and getting X's in their eyes. And Wisdom is clearly unnecessary and unwanted for a toon.

Seharvepernfan
2018-05-20, 09:32 PM
Strength and Charisma are raw force. Intelligence and Dexterity are finesse, and can arguably do everything. Wisdom and Constitution are resistance.

That just screams humans, elves, and dwarves to me.

cesius
2018-05-22, 04:37 PM
Charisma, as illustrated by Dr. Dinosaur.

https://i.imgur.com/HU5APpx.png

Dr. Dinosaur is absolutely self-centered and so immune to attacks against his world view. He is the stable fulcrum upon which his actions leverage.

https://i.imgur.com/dtE0HAQ.png

He doesn't always make good decisions, though, he never makes mistakes

https://i.imgur.com/CZW6j39.png

For more delightful Dr. Dinosaur:

http://www.atomic-robo.com/atomicrobo/v8fcbd-cover (The Trial of Atomic Robo)

vasilidor
2018-05-22, 06:47 PM
I always saw charisma score as a characters base capacity to deal with other people.

SimonMoon6
2018-05-22, 07:20 PM
If you like the power/finesse/resistance (PFR) idea, you should look into nWoD. They have a total of 9 attributes, divided into 3 categories (mental/physical/social), all following the PFR system.


The same thing is true for Mayfair's DC Heroes RPG.

Dex/Str/Con
Int/Will/Mind
Influence/Aura/Spirit

And that's a good system if that is what is desired.

However, one of the big issues is making sure that each stat has something to do. In the DCH RPG, unfortunately "Mind" sort of doesn't do anything unless you're attacked by someone with mental powers. So, you have no way to tell even roughly how much Mind a fictional character has. (Technically, there is something about solving riddles, but it's a super obscure rule. And generally, the more "sane" someone is, the more Mind they are generally given, but the game has no way to connect sanity and Mind as game effects.)

But that's probably too much for D&D.

My issues with D&D's mental stats are that they started with "Wisdom is what clerics use", "Intelligence is what magic-users use," and "oh, yeah, charisma exists... we'll make paladins have lots of it." And that was pretty much it. However, while intelligence has obvious applications, "wisdom" is more nebulous, so it also helped with what would later be called Will saves. And then... they realized they forgot about perception. An issue of Dragon magazine (during the 1st edition days) suggested adding a Perception stat (and I did in my 1st edition games). So, when 3rd edition eventually came around, the game designers decided to add perception to the game... but unlike what Dragon suggested, they didn't just add a 7th stat. That would have been too radical. So, they just added it to an existing stat. And since intelligent people are typically the most perceptive people, they put perception abilities with... Wisdom? Okay, well, Wisdom doesn't do much of anything, so they were just throwing it a bone.

And so Wisdom (not Charisma) is the stat that makes no sense. It's a "will saves/perception/good at being a cleric" stat, none of which really goes together. So why is it all this stuff? Well, wisdom is the strength of your personality, so that's why it helps with Will saves. By the way, what is Charisma? It's the strength of your personality, which is why you can get people (and arcane forces, if you're a sorcerer) to do your bidding.

Uh-oh, there's this overlap. Force of Personality is two different stats, one which kind of makes sense (charisma) and one which doesn't (wisdom).

If I had the ability to redesign D&D's stats, here's what I'd do: (1) Dump Wisdom. It makes no sense. (2) Add a new ability score, "Perception". (3) Anything that used Wisdom for "force of personality" (Sorcerers, Paladins, Clerics, Will saves) will instead use Charisma. (4) Anything that used Wisdom for perception (various perception-related skills and monk's bonus to AC) would instead use Perception. Problem fixed.

Unless you want 9 stats so that you can have a version of DEX/STR/CON for both mental and social stats. Then, you still have more work to do.

Thrudd
2018-05-22, 07:59 PM
The same thing is true for Mayfair's DC Heroes RPG.

Dex/Str/Con
Int/Will/Mind
Influence/Aura/Spirit

And that's a good system if that is what is desired.

However, one of the big issues is making sure that each stat has something to do. In the DCH RPG, unfortunately "Mind" sort of doesn't do anything unless you're attacked by someone with mental powers. So, you have no way to tell even roughly how much Mind a fictional character has. (Technically, there is something about solving riddles, but it's a super obscure rule. And generally, the more "sane" someone is, the more Mind they are generally given, but the game has no way to connect sanity and Mind as game effects.)

But that's probably too much for D&D.

My issues with D&D's mental stats are that they started with "Wisdom is what clerics use", "Intelligence is what magic-users use," and "oh, yeah, charisma exists... we'll make paladins have lots of it." And that was pretty much it. However, while intelligence has obvious applications, "wisdom" is more nebulous, so it also helped with what would later be called Will saves. And then... they realized they forgot about perception. An issue of Dragon magazine (during the 1st edition days) suggested adding a Perception stat (and I did in my 1st edition games). So, when 3rd edition eventually came around, the game designers decided to add perception to the game... but unlike what Dragon suggested, they didn't just add a 7th stat. That would have been too radical. So, they just added it to an existing stat. And since intelligent people are typically the most perceptive people, they put perception abilities with... Wisdom? Okay, well, Wisdom doesn't do much of anything, so they were just throwing it a bone.

And so Wisdom (not Charisma) is the stat that makes no sense. It's a "will saves/perception/good at being a cleric" stat, none of which really goes together. So why is it all this stuff? Well, wisdom is the strength of your personality, so that's why it helps with Will saves. By the way, what is Charisma? It's the strength of your personality, which is why you can get people (and arcane forces, if you're a sorcerer) to do your bidding.

Uh-oh, there's this overlap. Force of Personality is two different stats, one which kind of makes sense (charisma) and one which doesn't (wisdom).

If I had the ability to redesign D&D's stats, here's what I'd do: (1) Dump Wisdom. It makes no sense. (2) Add a new ability score, "Perception". (3) Anything that used Wisdom for "force of personality" (Sorcerers, Paladins, Clerics, Will saves) will instead use Charisma. (4) Anything that used Wisdom for perception (various perception-related skills and monk's bonus to AC) would instead use Perception. Problem fixed.

Unless you want 9 stats so that you can have a version of DEX/STR/CON for both mental and social stats. Then, you still have more work to do.

Exactly. D&D stats mostly don't make sense because later editions have given them a different purpose and meaning than what they were originally designed to do, or more accurately tacked-on new purposes instead of redesigning the system. D&D ability scores originally primarily describe "what class can you be", "do you get any extra HP", and "how many troops can you command". Every bit of detail added on top of that started breaking down the model, until you arrive where we are now, with stats that describe multiple unrelated things and no convincing way to make sense of the world this model describes.

John Campbell
2018-05-23, 12:37 AM
Shadowrun draws direct equivalences between the physical and mental stats, to the extent that the mental stats replace the corresponding physical stats in the astral. If your astral form punches another astral form, it's your Charisma you do damage with, and their Willpower that they soak the damage with.

The equivalences are:

PhysicalMental
BodyWillpower
QuicknessIntelligence
StrengthCharisma


Body is basically Constitution. Quickness is basically Dexterity. Willpower is not the same thing as Wisdom, and IMAO makes more sense as a stat than Wisdom.

tedcahill2
2018-05-23, 05:58 AM
I guess I just don't see charisma as mental power like some of you.

To me, raw mental power is intelligence. Charisma sits more in the realm of social power to me.

Rhedyn
2018-05-23, 06:30 AM
In my favorite RPG, Savage Worlds, there are 5 main stats; Agility, Vigor, Smarts, Spirit, and Strength

Charisma is a flat mod to social skills and is modified by edges and hindrances like being attractive, a Noble, ugly, or having a serious personally flaw.

Force of personality falls under spirit and skills like persuasion are linked to smarts.

I don't have a problem with charisma in D&D, but it's not like I need it either.

LibraryOgre
2018-05-23, 09:54 AM
I guess I just don't see charisma as mental power like some of you.

To me, raw mental power is intelligence. Charisma sits more in the realm of social power to me.

And I think that's how it might have originally been envisioned, but I also think there's a lot to be said for viewing Charisma as mental strength. There's an elegance in the mirrored attribute system, at the very least.

PhoenixPhyre
2018-05-23, 10:28 AM
I guess I just don't see charisma as mental power like some of you.

To me, raw mental power is intelligence. Charisma sits more in the realm of social power to me.

I've seen lots of absolutely brilliant shrinking violets. And a lot of people who can't remember or reason worth anything but are bulldozers who can push their will on anyone around them, even if it doesn't make sense if you think about it.

John Campbell
2018-05-23, 11:57 AM
I guess I just don't see charisma as mental power like some of you.

To me, raw mental power is intelligence. Charisma sits more in the realm of social power to me.

Part of the problem here, I think, is that "power" is such a vague term. I mean, why isn't Willpower the raw mental power stat? It's even got "power" in the name.

But if you break them down into Resistance, Speed and Finesse, and Affecting Others, this is obviously Con/Body, Dex/Quickness, and Strength on the Physical side.

Mental Resistance is obviously Willpower (D&D's Wisdom has been kind of crammed into this role, but it's a bad fit).

Mental Speed and Finesse? What lets you figure things out faster, come up with more creative solutions, and think outside the box? Seems like Intelligence to me.

And Affecting Others? Charisma. Yeah, it's social power, but "Social" is Mental Strength. It's how you apply your mental abilities to affect the world around you.

Wardog
2018-05-23, 05:25 PM
Honestly, I feel like Wisdom is the one that makes the least sense. It's perception, but also willpower, but also intuition. Those are all pretty distinct. Even Dexterity, another catch-all at least has consistent individual parts. And it doesn't involve being wise! That's Intelligence, if anything.

I've always felt the same.

IMO "Wisdom" is better thought of as the equivilent of "force sensetivity" in Star Wars.

It's essentially how attuned you are to the mystical forces of the universe, which is why it is the primary casting stat for divine spellcasters, the bonus stat for most monk abilities, protects you against mind control, and enhances your perception.

PhoenixPhyre
2018-05-23, 05:36 PM
I've always felt the same.

IMO "Wisdom" is better thought of as the equivilent of "force sensetivity" in Star Wars.

It's essentially how attuned you are to the mystical forces of the universe, which is why it is the primary casting stat for divine spellcasters, the bonus stat for most monk abilities, protects you against mind control, and enhances your perception.

In 5e D&D at least, it's not just sensitivity to the mystical, it's sensitivity to what's going on around you. Things it governs:

* Saving throws, mostly against mind-affecting or non-physical control.
* Ability checks:

Wisdom reflects how attuned you are to the world around you and represents perceptiveness and intuition.

Wisdom Checks
A Wisdom check might reflect an effort to read body language, understand someone’s feelings, notice things about the environment, or care for an injured person.

Key skills: Animal Handling (calming animals and figuring out their motives), Insight (understanding intentions of others), Medicine (determining what's wrong, mostly), Perception (which only is noticing, not deducing from that evidence), Survival

Other things:
* Intuitive feelings about which course to follow
* Tell whether something is undead.

Seto
2018-05-23, 05:42 PM
In simplified terms, the way I see it is: if the world is affecting your mind (noticing things, resisting mental assault), you're dealing with Wisdom. If you're using your mind to affect the world (dealing with other people, UMDing items), that's Charisma. And if you're looking at things stored inside your mind or happening inside your mind (knowing things, reasoning in abstract terms), Intelligence is what you want.

Quertus
2018-05-23, 05:49 PM
If I had the ability to redesign D&D's stats, here's what I'd do: (1) Dump Wisdom. It makes no sense. (2) Add a new ability score, "Perception". (3) Anything that used Wisdom for "force of personality" (Sorcerers, Paladins, Clerics, Will saves) will instead use Charisma. (4) Anything that used Wisdom for perception (various perception-related skills and monk's bonus to AC) would instead use Perception. Problem fixed.

Unless you want 9 stats so that you can have a version of DEX/STR/CON for both mental and social stats. Then, you still have more work to do.

Would you have monks know how to avoid attacks based on how charismatic they are? :smallconfused:


Exactly. D&D stats mostly don't make sense because later editions have given them a different purpose and meaning than what they were originally designed to do, or more accurately tacked-on new purposes instead of redesigning the system. D&D ability scores originally primarily describe "what class can you be", "do you get any extra HP", and "how many troops can you command". Every bit of detail added on top of that started breaking down the model, until you arrive where we are now, with stats that describe multiple unrelated things and no convincing way to make sense of the world this model describes.

I'm pretty sure Strength affected how hard you hit, Dexterity affected how likely you were to avoid blows. I can't say before 2e whether Intelligence affected the number of languages you knew, or your chances of comprehending a scrap of arcane lore. But these don't feel like "breaking the model" to me. Now, granted, shoehorning intimidate into strength or charisma, and perception into intelligence or wisdom, may have issues. But I think ours a bit of an exaggeration to say that everything broke the system.


I guess I just don't see charisma as mental power like some of you.

To me, raw mental power is intelligence. Charisma sits more in the realm of social power to me.

Same. In fact, IME, people who are good at convincing others are often rather... mentally deficient, especially in the realm of realizing when they are wrong. Charisma is, if anything, a force anti-multiplier (force divider?) to mental power.


And I think that's how it might have originally been envisioned, but I also think there's a lot to be said for viewing Charisma as mental strength. There's an elegance in the mirrored attribute system, at the very least.

Obviously, I disagree. Care to try to convince me of the merits of charisma as mental strength?


I've seen lots of absolutely brilliant shrinking violets. And a lot of people who can't remember or reason worth anything but are bulldozers who can push their will on anyone around them, even if it doesn't make sense if you think about it.

Same. And I've lived, if not at, then at least somewhere in proximity of both ends of that spectrum.


Part of the problem here, I think, is that "power" is such a vague term. I mean, why isn't Willpower the raw mental power stat? It's even got "power" in the name.

But if you break them down into Resistance, Speed and Finesse, and Affecting Others, this is obviously Con/Body, Dex/Quickness, and Strength on the Physical side.

Mental Resistance is obviously Willpower (D&D's Wisdom has been kind of crammed into this role, but it's a bad fit).

Mental Speed and Finesse? What lets you figure things out faster, come up with more creative solutions, and think outside the box? Seems like Intelligence to me.

And Affecting Others? Charisma. Yeah, it's social power, but "Social" is Mental Strength. It's how you apply your mental abilities to affect the world around you.

Personally, I apply my mental strength by writing code, solving algorithms, creating tactics and strategies.

When do I use charisma in determining a build order, or creating a TO character design? When do I use charisma solving a crossword puzzle or riddle or in Sudoku? When do I use charisma in calculating the effectiveness of a SoD spell, or weighing the design or tactical options for my Mech?

Charisma doesn't seem like mental strength from my experience.

Kami2awa
2018-05-24, 06:33 AM
Tbh, all the stats are abstract or simplifications to a degree:

Strength: Doesn't differentiate between upper/lower body strength, body weight, and so on.
Dexterity: Encompasses fine manipulation, agility, contortionism, and reaction time.
Constitution: Encompasses resistance to many different diseases with very different effects, poisons, supernatural effects, endurance, breath holding...
Charisma: Attractiveness, force of personality, empathy, manipulation, acting ability, faith (in terms of powering Turn Undead).
Wisdom: Willpower, self-awareness, reasoning, faith (again)
Intelligence: Many, many different kinds, and also knowledge (and ability to actually apply it) plus linguistic ability.

All of these things could have their own stat! Reducing it to six means there is necessarily some generalisation and overlap present.

hymer
2018-05-24, 09:43 AM
I'm pretty sure Strength affected how hard you hit
Actually, it affected how good you were at getting stuck doors unstuck, IIRC. Maybe how much loot you could carry. It had no effect on how hard you hit, or how well you hit from the beginning of D&D.

Quertus
2018-05-24, 10:49 AM
Actually, it affected how good you were at getting stuck doors unstuck, IIRC. Maybe how much loot you could carry. It had no effect on how hard you hit, or how well you hit from the beginning of D&D.

Really? Huh. I haven't even looked at "1e", let alone my older stuff in so long, I'm not even sure it survived my last move(s). I guess my senility won this round.

hamishspence
2018-05-24, 11:02 AM
Really? Huh. I haven't even looked at "1e", let alone my older stuff in so long, I'm not even sure it survived my last move(s). I guess my senility won this round.

"How much XP you get" was the main reason for having a high Strength in early D&D.

However, at some point in the BCEMI era, it got applied to Melee To Hit and Melee Damage.

hymer
2018-05-24, 12:23 PM
I guess my senility won this round.
It's got reach, but it's weak in the clinches. My money's on you for the rematch.

LibraryOgre
2018-05-24, 12:28 PM
Obviously, I disagree. Care to try to convince me of the merits of charisma as mental strength?


As I said, some of it goes down to elegance of design... a clear correspondence between the physical and mental attributes. It ties in to the traditional uses of the ability; your Charisma affects how you influence people... how they take you in the instant, through Reaction checks, and how you affect them long term, through loyalty modifiers and maximum number of henchmen.

It's tempting to view Intelligence as Mental Strength... the horsepower your mind can bring to bear on the problem. And, if you do that, you might recast Charisma as mental dexterity... the ability to adapt yourself to others, making you more appealing. But I don't think that works as well. Intelligence is not just horsepower, but also parallel processing. Intelligence is being able to integrate multiple discrete thoughts into a single whole... Charisma is being able to mash a single idea into the space you want it to fit in other's heads.



Actually, it affected how good you were at getting stuck doors unstuck, IIRC. Maybe how much loot you could carry. It had no effect on how hard you hit, or how well you hit from the beginning of D&D.

Perhaps I missed a specific reference, here, but AD&D strength WAS how hard you hit, as well as how accurately. A 17 strength would give you a +1 to hit and +1 to damage in melee combat, as well as a set chance to open stuck doors, or to bend bars or lift portcullises.

Dimers
2018-05-24, 12:55 PM
TOON has Muscles, Zip, Smarts, and Chutzpah, which are close to Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence and Charisma.

Human-Occupied Landfill uses five traits -- Greymatta, Meat, Mouth, Feets, Nuts. Two charisma-related traits there.

Lord Torath
2018-05-24, 01:13 PM
"How much XP you get" was the main reason for having a high Strength in early D&D.

However, at some point in the BCEMI era, it got applied to Melee To Hit and Melee Damage.In 1980, the Moldvay Basic rulebook had bonuses or penalties to hit and damage (and opening doors) for Strength scores outside the 9-12 range. AD&D had their strength bonuses to hit and damage a year earlier.

hymer
2018-05-24, 01:27 PM
Perhaps I missed a specific reference, here, but AD&D strength WAS how hard you hit, as well as how accurately. A 17 strength would give you a +1 to hit and +1 to damage in melee combat, as well as a set chance to open stuck doors, or to bend bars or lift portcullises.
Ah, young man, young man. Sit thee down, and let us longbeards tell ye of how it was in the olden days. Not this newfangled stuff with 'advanced' or 'editions'. :smallwink:

Truth be told, I never played anything that old, but it was indeed the case in the earliest D&D versions that ability scores mattered a lot less, inluding not having direct effect on fighting (except maybe constitution?). Though I think dex gave a bonus to hit with ranged weapons.

Edit: Found a copy of the Basic Rules edited by Eric Holmes, and I ebelieve that's as old as it gets while still being called D&D. Dex did indeed affect missile attacks. 9-12 was neutral, above that +1 to hit, and below that -1. Con 18 gave +3hp per hit die. Prime requisites (you know, fighting man has strength, magic-user has int, etc.) affected XP by giving a bonus if it's high or a penalty if it's low. There's no mention I can find that strength affects to hit chance or damage dealt.

hamishspence
2018-05-24, 01:27 PM
In 1980, the Moldvay Basic rulebook had bonuses or penalties to hit and damage (and opening doors) for Strength scores outside the 9-12 range.

My 1978 Holmes Basic rulebook didn't have them.


AD&D had their strength bonuses to hit and damage a year earlier.

Maybe it was the changeover from Holmes-era to "AD&D" that started the trend - with Moldvay Basic taking some design cues from AD&D 1st ed?

Thrudd
2018-05-24, 01:54 PM
Str was "how good you are at fighting/being a fighter"(via bonuses to hit and damage) and also how much stuff you can carry and opening doors. Somewhat but not totally related things. It's the least problematic.

Dex was how good of a thief you are via bonuses to thief skills, which includes moving silent, hiding and climbing as well as finding and removing traps, hearing noises and reading scrolls. There are at least 3 different categories of things there. On top of that, it gives a bonus to defense and to missile weapon attacks. These are mostly unrelated things in terms of actual abilities required- D&D makes it all one thing because it's all "thief stuff" (Bilbo the burglar is good at throwing stuff, remember).

Quertus
2018-05-26, 06:48 AM
As I said, some of it goes down to elegance of design... a clear correspondence between the physical and mental attributes. It ties in to the traditional uses of the ability; your Charisma affects how you influence people... how they take you in the instant, through Reaction checks, and how you affect them long term, through loyalty modifiers and maximum number of henchmen.

It's tempting to view Intelligence as Mental Strength... the horsepower your mind can bring to bear on the problem. And, if you do that, you might recast Charisma as mental dexterity... the ability to adapt yourself to others, making you more appealing. But I don't think that works as well. Intelligence is not just horsepower, but also parallel processing. Intelligence is being able to integrate multiple discrete thoughts into a single whole... Charisma is being able to mash a single idea into the space you want it to fit in other's heads.

So, I've been thinking about this. And, of course, being me, I'm looking at it as code.

To me, intelligence is the core of the code - how fast it runs, how complex the data it can process is, etc. What it can do.

Charisma is how pretty the interface is, how likely people are to accept it at a glance, and how likely they are to fall in love with it, and love it despite its faults.

But it's that last line of yours that gave me some pause. I couldn't quite figure out what to do with this notion of getting an idea to fit into others' heads.

I mean, yes, from a code standpoint, that's a matter of how robust and dynamic the interface is, to allow various programs to communicate with one another effectively.

But I finally realized that the real issue is focused around a single word: "mash".

Sure, there's the notion of trying to force an idea into someone's head. Prop up half a dozen supposedly respectable people on tv, have them use the exact same buzzwords over and over again, until it becomes part of everyone's thought process. It's a done thing, brute force insertion of ideas into the collective conscious.

But one on one, or even one on many, that's a bit harder. IME, the more common technique in such situations is to attempt to pair down the idea, modify the delivery to match the target audience. Make the idea relatable to the people you're talking to.

Someone who just keeps trying to eloquently shove an idea in where it doesn't go may have made their Charisma roll, but they failed something. From WoD, I'd say that they failed their Wits roll. Which then lets me tie communication into mental stats - specifically, mental agility. Whereas Charisma is social force.

However, if you're trying to force Charisma and Intelligence - two measures of force - into the roles of mental force and agility? Obviously, it's a tough call, and it's going to be a bad fit with some rough spots either way, but, as an introvert, I'm partial to keeping Intelligence internal power, and Charisma external agility. If you flip that to an extroverted stance, where what you care about is your impact on the outside world, I can see where the alternate casting would be appealing.

Nifft
2018-05-26, 10:48 AM
Charisma doesn't make sense.

Charisma makes pretty.

Intelligence makes sense.

SimonMoon6
2018-05-27, 09:14 PM
Would you have monks know how to avoid attacks based on how charismatic they are? :smallconfused:

Nope. Notice that I said that Monks would instead get their AC bonuses from Perception not Charisma.

Quertus
2018-05-27, 09:18 PM
Nope. Notice that I said that Monks would instead get their AC bonuses from Perception not Charisma.

Clearly, I failed my perception roll - guess I shouldn't aim for Monk, then. :smallwink:

Dimers
2018-05-28, 01:25 AM
Charisma doesn't make sense.

Charisma makes pretty.

Intelligence makes sense.

Wisdom makes sense. Intelligence makes notes. And Charisma makes out with that hot chick in the latex bodysuit who everyone's been giving the eye for the whole night.

1of3
2018-05-28, 04:24 AM
It makes sense, within D&D's paradigm, to have an ability score that governs Talky Stuff.

I'm not sure that is so. According to the designers of the most recent edition, D&D play has three pillars, exploration, interaction (i.e. talky stuff) and combat.

Now, the combat pillar is rather well defined. You get various things do in combat based on your class and other character choices.

The exploration pillar is the general back and forth between players and GM, where the GM might call various skill checks. These are rather varied. Intelligence to translate inscriptions, wisdom to read foot prints, strength to climb walls, constitution to resist harsh climate, dexterity to balance between those pressure plates. You can basically use all stats in explorative tasks. Except Charisma.

The interaction pillar though is rather slim. Yes, one can train a certain number of CHA skills, but they are not really well defined either. Just consider the copious debate about when to roll Charisma, about rollplay vs roleplay etc. So while the theory suggests three pillars, the rules for talky stuff are more like a subtype for exploration and they do not seem to translate very well.

So, going by that 3 pillar theory, if we have class features for combat, and attributes/skills for exploration, it might make more sense to model talky stuff in a compeletely different way, that is clearer in execution.

Nifft
2018-05-28, 05:09 AM
Wisdom makes sense. Intelligence makes notes. And Charisma makes out with that hot chick in the latex bodysuit who everyone's been giving the eye for the whole night.

Wisdom makes senses and sarsens.

Intelligence makes sense and sensibility.

Charisma makes sensuality and sensationalism.

Dimers
2018-05-28, 04:44 PM
Wisdom makes senses and sarsens.

Intelligence makes sense and sensibility.

Charisma makes sensuality and sensationalism.

Beautiful, very well-played. *clep clep clep* :smallsmile:

And now that I've looked up what a "sarsen" is, I have learned yet another thing from my gaming hobby, bringing the total up to approximately 92,417. Seriously, I learn so much because of gaming.

Nifft
2018-05-28, 05:14 PM
Beautiful, very well-played. *clep clep clep* :smallsmile: Yay!


And now that I've looked up what a "sarsen" is, I have learned yet another thing from my gaming hobby, bringing the total up to approximately 92,417. Seriously, I learn so much because of gaming. I also learned that word in this thread, while looking up other words.

The dictionary entry literally said "Druid stone", how could I resist?