Optimizing the Races from MToF

[PeteNutButter]

You may have read my previous rant on the new book, but now that I've slept off some of the salt, I figured I'd go for a bit of optimization of the new races.

Eladrin are a solid race that go excellently with any cha caster, due to the cha bonus. Squishy casters getting a free "spellless" escape on a short rest is very very strong. Dex melee characters can make use of the skill offensively, closing gaps. It's also worth noting that as an ability and not a spell it suffers from no component/free-hand limitations and no bonus action spell limitations.
Autumn seems like the best version for melee characters that may not want to get attacked. The two target charm is a decent, non-concentration soft CC. Sadly the charmed condition has no effect on your teammates, meaning you'll be redirecting any charmed foes to attack your teammates. Since the effect takes place after you land, it encourages melee behavior.
8, 16, 14, 10, 10, 16
Rogue Swashbuckler

The charisma boost fits the subclass well. The charm goes well with the flavor of the character, and allows you to set up your attacks on the uncharmed foes. If the charm fails outright, and you find yourself in a melee situation 1 on 3, you can always disengage or attack two targets with TWF and walk away. Winter is a bit harder CC, potentially making it the best of the Eladrin. The frightened effect takes effect on a foe within 5 feet before you move, so could be hard to set up if you aren't already a melee character or prone to getting caught in melee.
8, 16, 14, 10, 10, 16
Conquest Paladin

There is so much obvious synergy between the race and class. Giving the paladin one more option to fear, that is tied to a bonus action is strong enough. The fact that it immediately sets up to move you 10 feet away without OAs is fantastic. I'm not a fan of dex paladins due to the MC MAD struggle, but the conquest paladin is strong 1-20 and the race fits it too well. Rapier and shield along with half plate and fear lock-downs. Too bad you can't ever do this in AL.Spring is a bit situational. Important to note that you retain the option to teleport yourself, so more options are always good. That being said, the best use of this sub-subrace is probably for melee characters who may find their allies in need of escape, more than they need to have a 30 foot movement.
Summer does so little damage is basically pointless. What will be 3-5 damage to up to 8 targets could theoretically be up to 40 (or more with squeezing or 3D) damage, but in practice will do no more than about 12. Since it's spread out it'll be largely wasted in most cases ending up in overkill when the foes actually get hit. Like Autumn, it's effect takes place after you land. I'd only play this one if your DM loves to use zounds of mooks or maybe you have a build in mind that is stacking AoE around you such as using spirit guardians. Basically only play it if storm herald barbarian is good.
A con boost is never wasted, making the sea elf inherently viable. I see the best uses for this race as rogue and dex fighter. (Please no dex barbs or unarmored barbs.) Between the water genasi and triton, we now have 3 underwater capable PC races for a potential waterborne party. The sea elf gets proficiency in the spear, trident, light crossbow, and net. The net is actually not bad, as a martial weapon can get some good use for a rogue.

Also you can talk to fish. Can't tritons do that too? That's two thirds of underwater races talking to fish. How many land races talk to squirrels? Just Firbolgs and David the Gnome.
10, 17, 15, 12, 13, 8
Assassin x/gloomstalker 3-5

I'm not a big fan of the assassin subclass, but in a campaign on the sea, a waterborne assassin might have a good chance at getting surprise on enemy pirates. If it's not AL, the eleven accuracy feat can round out those advantage dice when you go first and gloomstalker can boost that surprise burst damage as well as the initiative for ensuring advantage. Additionally the gloomstalker's invisibility to darkvision seems incredibly powerful if you find yourself in the ocean depths.
Con again, is a solid stat boost. It comes with resistance to a fairly common damage type too. The "misty step" feature is about as good as the Eladrin's with the drawback of being long rest recharge. The resistance to damage means this is best fit for a melee planning to soak hits. Rogue would be good again, potentially being very tanky for 1 round coupled with uncanny dodge. Dex fighter or ranger (likely MC in rogue) fits this best IMO. Coupled with a decent AC via rapier and shield, the resistance for a round does good work.

I'd most likely only play this race if my DM runs short adventuring days. The chase feature is cool, but once every 6 encounters feels too little for me.
Strength and int push you towards wizard, EK, or maybe AT. You get a free skill, which is nice, and proficiency in light and medium armor as well as swords. Once per long rest you get to cast jump and misty step without components. Misty step is a solid spell, jump can be useful too, especially for melee. You also get invisible mage hand without components which is great for RP trollery, and is flat out better than the AT gets being component free.

I'm a bit torn with what to do with this race. The best features seem to be the proficiencies, but actually wading into melee is a tall order for a pure wizard, and MCing gets those proficencies. Maybe an abjurer can stand in melee for a short time with a 17 Half Plate AC. I think the best use is probably to just play as a normal wizard with a 17 AC. Stay back, but be slightly harder to hit, at least until 17 AC becomes trivial. At least your nose looks cool.16, 14, 14, 14, 9, 8
Abjurer x

Simple and to the point. You'll be fairly hardy until you run out of spells. Use a greatsword with GFB/BB until you get access to tenser's transformation and go at it. Be prepared to use that misty step to gtfo once things get ugly. Higher int over str would be more optimal in the long run.
Int and wisdom... :smallannoyed:
You get advantage on saves against charm and fear, if you remember to roll it. You also get the invisible mage hand, shield spell, and detect thoughts once a day, all component free. Shield spell is one of the strongest 1st level spells in the game, and getting it without components means you can cast it with your hands full, not needing warcaster.

It's tough to make use of the race, but seems best suited for a wisdom caster. Clerics and druids don't all miss the loss of physical stats. Nature clerics can still melee with a stick. Though not RAW, you might be able to talk your DM into allowing your psionics while wildshaped, as they are not exactly "spells," and need no components. They don't make terrible monks. Starting with a 15 and 17 in dex and wisdom, gets you back on par with an optimal monk's AC by your first ASI. You still won't be as good at attacking, but your stun DC is nice. Never as good as a vhuman monk of course, as +1 int vs a feat is an obvious choice.
8, 14, 14, 14, 16, 8
Moon Druid x/War Wizard 2 "The Mind Bear"

This build at least utilizes both stat boosts for a bit of an odd MC. If your DM allows psionics while wildshaped that's pretty good (shield in bear!), and you can use the war wizard feature for +2 AC/+4 to save while in wildshape. Diviner instead if AL.
Anyone see any good uses for these races that I'm missing?

[ZorroGames]

Sea adventures. Now I am interested.

Appreciate the effort.

[JakOfAllTirades]

I'm working on a Githyanki 'fighting wizard' character. I'll probably grab the Tough feat at 4th level and call it good. They've got spells, armor, and weapons, already; I think HP is their only serious weakness. I'm also liking the War Wizard archetype for a little extra AC and the Initiative bonus.

[PeteNutButter]

I'm working on a Githyanki 'fighting wizard' character. I'll probably grab the Tough feat at 4th level and call it good. They've got spells, armor, and weapons, already; I think HP is their only serious weakness. I'm also liking the War Wizard archetype for a little extra AC and the Initiative bonus.

HP is why I went for Abjurer. I considered War Wizard as well, but with a half plate AC only the AC boosts didn't seem like they were enough to get anywhere great. A war wizard that dipped fighter for instance would have no problem getting 20 AC from plate and a shield, making those additions that much more viable. That one level dip saves you 7 points on point buy as you can dump dex, max str and int, and nets you con save prof. It's like getting two feats/ASIs in one level.

Tough Feat is nice solution for HP, which is basically required for non-abjurer melee wizards. The 14 dex + con + str + int is MAD, but honestly not as MAD as a Bladesinger, since the gith isn't relying on those stat increases for AC. The Githyanki make for probably the best pure wizard martial that isn't a bladesinger, so if you are in a game that doesn't allow MCing there is a good use for it. I wonder if it'd be worth it to dump dex on the gith start with a 17 str and take the feat for heavy armor? Starting 17, 10, 14, 16, 8, 8 would net you a crappy 14-15 AC until 4th level when you could probably don splint, and round out that str to 18.

[ZorroGames]

HP is why I went for Abjurer. I considered War Wizard as well, but with a half plate AC only the AC boosts didn't seem like they were enough to get anywhere great. A war wizard that dipped fighter for instance would have no problem getting 20 AC from plate and a shield, making those additions that much more viable. That one level dip saves you 7 points on point buy as you can dump dex, max str and int, and nets you con save prof. It's like getting two feats/ASIs in one level.

Tough Feat is nice solution for HP, which is basically required for non-abjurer melee wizards. The 14 dex + con + str + int is MAD, but honestly not as MAD as a Bladesinger, since the gith isn't relying on those stat increases for AC. The Githyanki make for probably the best pure wizard martial that isn't a bladesinger, so if you are in a game that doesn't allow MCing there is a good use for it. I wonder if it'd be worth it to dump dex on the gith start with a 17 str and take the feat for heavy armor? Starting 17, 10, 14, 16, 8, 8 would net you a crappy 14-15 AC until 4th level when you could probably don splint, and round out that str to 18.

The few DMs that don’t allow MC that I have observed also dump feats. YMMV and most don’t care at the FLGS AL gaming.

[PeteNutButter]

The few DMs that don’t allow MC that I have observed also dump feats. YMMV and most don’t care at the FLGS AL gaming.

Solid point. I can't imagine there are many DMs out there that would not allow MC, but would allow both feats and the Githyanki player race. That's definitely an edge case. Maybe if you as a player just hate MCing play a gith wizard as a fighting wizard.

[ZorroGames]

Solid point. I can't imagine there are many DMs out there that would not allow MC, but would allow both feats and the Githyanki player race. That's definitely an edge case. Maybe if you as a player just hate MCing play a gith wizard as a fighting wizard.

You do know that you fed my MC habit until the AL DMs locally are starting to expect me to start only using MC characters, right?

[PeteNutButter]

You do know that you fed my MC habit until the AL DMs locally are starting to expect me to start only using MC characters, right?

I wouldn’t have it any other way. Single class characters are too cookie cutter for me.

[jaappleton]

IMO, Githyanki are good only for three builds at the moment.

1. Eldritch Knight
2. Str-Based Arcane Trickster
3. Alternative to Mountain Dwarf for Wizard

Though I surmise that when the Mystic is released, the optimization guides will have them as Sky Blue.

[JakOfAllTirades]

Solid point. I can't imagine there are many DMs out there that would not allow MC, but would allow both feats and the Githyanki player race. That's definitely an edge case. Maybe if you as a player just hate MCing play a gith wizard as a fighting wizard.

It's not that I hate multi classing, but if I'm playing a full caster I hate to nerf my spell casting progression. So if I'm trying to do a "gish" style character, I'll use class features, racial abilities, feats, anything but multi-classing to be better at combat at the expense of spell casting. Nobody every said this was easy, though.

PeteNutButter's suggestion of taking Heavily Armored rather than Tough is interesting, but there are enough ways to take damage that bypass armor (spells, etc) that I'd just as soon have the hit points instead. Half Plate and a 14 Dex is just as good as Splint Armor, if you can get it.

[DracoKnight]

After discussion for how to make the stats work...

I have:

STR 15 (13 + 2)
DEX 12
CON 14
INT 16 (15 + 1)
WIS 10
CHA 8

Not too bad, tbh. You can grab Tough at 4th, and then proceed to bump your INT at 8th and DEX at 12th. Now you've got 17 AC, a massive amount of HP (due to Abjurer's Ward and Tough) and then you can bump INT up to 20.

If you happen to find a pair of gauntlets of ogre power you can turn this into a solid gish build relying on a longsword and booming blade. Or you could sacrifice an INT bump and your DEX bump to buff that STR up a bit.

Anyways, it's the tank that casts wish. Think on that for a moment.

[Tetrasodium]

You may have read my previous rant on the new book, but now that I've slept off some of the salt, I figured I'd go for a bit of optimization of the new races.

Eladrin are a solid race that go excellently with any cha caster, due to the cha bonus. Squishy casters getting a free "spellless" escape on a short rest is very very strong. Dex melee characters can make use of the skill offensively, closing gaps. It's also worth noting that as an ability and not a spell it suffers from no component/free-hand limitations and no bonus action spell limitations.
Autumn seems like the best version for melee characters that may not want to get attacked. The two target charm is a decent, non-concentration soft CC. Sadly the charmed condition has no effect on your teammates, meaning you'll be redirecting any charmed foes to attack your teammates. Since the effect takes place after you land, it encourages melee behavior.
8, 16, 14, 10, 10, 16
Rogue Swashbuckler

The charisma boost fits the subclass well. The charm goes well with the flavor of the character, and allows you to set up your attacks on the uncharmed foes. If the charm fails outright, and you find yourself in a melee situation 1 on 3, you can always disengage or attack two targets with TWF and walk away. Winter is a bit harder CC, potentially making it the best of the Eladrin. The frightened effect takes effect on a foe within 5 feet before you move, so could be hard to set up if you aren't already a melee character or prone to getting caught in melee.
8, 16, 14, 10, 10, 16
Conquest Paladin

There is so much obvious synergy between the race and class. Giving the paladin one more option to fear, that is tied to a bonus action is strong enough. The fact that it immediately sets up to move you 10 feet away without OAs is fantastic. I'm not a fan of dex paladins due to the MC MAD struggle, but the conquest paladin is strong 1-20 and the race fits it too well. Rapier and shield along with half plate and fear lock-downs. Too bad you can't ever do this in AL.Spring is a bit situational. Important to note that you retain the option to teleport yourself, so more options are always good. That being said, the best use of this sub-subrace is probably for melee characters who may find their allies in need of escape, more than they need to have a 30 foot movement.
Summer does so little damage is basically pointless. What will be 3-5 damage to up to 8 targets could theoretically be up to 40 (or more with squeezing or 3D) damage, but in practice will do no more than about 12. Since it's spread out it'll be largely wasted in most cases ending up in overkill when the foes actually get hit. Like Autumn, it's effect takes place after you land. I'd only play this one if your DM loves to use zounds of mooks or maybe you have a build in mind that is stacking AoE around you such as using spirit guardians. Basically only play it if storm herald barbarian is good.
A con boost is never wasted, making the sea elf inherently viable. I see the best uses for this race as rogue and dex fighter. (Please no dex barbs or unarmored barbs.) Between the water genasi and triton, we now have 3 underwater capable PC races for a potential waterborne party. The sea elf gets proficiency in the spear, trident, light crossbow, and net. The net is actually not bad, as a martial weapon can get some good use for a rogue.

Also you can talk to fish. Can't tritons do that too? That's two thirds of underwater races talking to fish. How many land races talk to squirrels? Just Firbolgs and David the Gnome.
10, 17, 15, 12, 13, 8
Assassin x/gloomstalker 3-5

I'm not a big fan of the assassin subclass, but in a campaign on the sea, a waterborne assassin might have a good chance at getting surprise on enemy pirates. If it's not AL, the eleven accuracy feat can round out those advantage dice when you go first and gloomstalker can boost that surprise burst damage as well as the initiative for ensuring advantage. Additionally the gloomstalker's invisibility to darkvision seems incredibly powerful if you find yourself in the ocean depths.
Con again, is a solid stat boost. It comes with resistance to a fairly common damage type too. The "misty step" feature is about as good as the Eladrin's with the drawback of being long rest recharge. The resistance to damage means this is best fit for a melee planning to soak hits. Rogue would be good again, potentially being very tanky for 1 round coupled with uncanny dodge. Dex fighter or ranger (likely MC in rogue) fits this best IMO. Coupled with a decent AC via rapier and shield, the resistance for a round does good work.

I'd most likely only play this race if my DM runs short adventuring days. The chase feature is cool, but once every 6 encounters feels too little for me.
Strength and int push you towards wizard, EK, or maybe AT. You get a free skill, which is nice, and proficiency in light and medium armor as well as swords. Once per long rest you get to cast jump and misty step without components. Misty step is a solid spell, jump can be useful too, especially for melee. You also get invisible mage hand without components which is great for RP trollery, and is flat out better than the AT gets being component free.

I'm a bit torn with what to do with this race. The best features seem to be the proficiencies, but actually wading into melee is a tall order for a pure wizard, and MCing gets those proficencies. Maybe an abjurer can stand in melee for a short time with a 17 Half Plate AC. I think the best use is probably to just play as a normal wizard with a 17 AC. Stay back, but be slightly harder to hit, at least until 17 AC becomes trivial. At least your nose looks cool.16, 14, 14, 14, 9, 8
Abjurer x

Simple and to the point. You'll be fairly hardy until you run out of spells. Use a greatsword with GFB/BB until you get access to tenser's transformation and go at it. Be prepared to use that misty step to gtfo once things get ugly. Higher int over str would be more optimal in the long run.
Int and wisdom... :smallannoyed:
You get advantage on saves against charm and fear, if you remember to roll it. You also get the invisible mage hand, shield spell, and detect thoughts once a day, all component free. Shield spell is one of the strongest 1st level spells in the game, and getting it without components means you can cast it with your hands full, not needing warcaster.

It's tough to make use of the race, but seems best suited for a wisdom caster. Clerics and druids don't all miss the loss of physical stats. Nature clerics can still melee with a stick. Though not RAW, you might be able to talk your DM into allowing your psionics while wildshaped, as they are not exactly "spells," and need no components. They don't make terrible monks. Starting with a 15 and 17 in dex and wisdom, gets you back on par with an optimal monk's AC by your first ASI. You still won't be as good at attacking, but your stun DC is nice. Never as good as a vhuman monk of course, as +1 int vs a feat is an obvious choice.
8, 14, 14, 14, 16, 8
Moon Druid x/War Wizard 2 "The Mind Bear"

This build at least utilizes both stat boosts for a bit of an odd MC. If your DM allows psionics while wildshaped that's pretty good (shield in bear!), and you can use the war wizard feature for +2 AC/+4 to save while in wildshape. Diviner instead if AL.
Anyone see any good uses for these races that I'm missing?
I have a githyankyi gish type character starting soon (fighter1 -> wizard X). talked to the gm about how Martial Prodigy gives proficient with light and medium armor, shortswords, longswords, and greatswords. while fighter gives all armor & all weapons. asked if I could trade the overlap for something else like warcaster/heavy armor master or whatever, gm agreed & thought it was cool. As long as you aren't playing in AL, it can't hurt to ask your gm stuff like that.


Githzerai's int/wis combo is indeed odd right now, but artificer is int based so that +1 int +2 wis would make a 1 level dip into cleric for the free prepped spells & domain choice boons in order to really tweak out your abilities rather cheaply since an 11 becomes a 13 int based psionics archtypes may or may not be a good splash for a wis based character with 12+1 int when those eventually come along

[PeteNutButter]

I have a githyankyi gish type character starting soon (fighter1 -> wizard X). talked to the gm about how Martial Prodigy gives proficient with light and medium armor, shortswords, longswords, and greatswords. while fighter gives all armor & all weapons. asked if I could trade the overlap for something else like warcaster/heavy armor master or whatever, gm agreed & thought it was cool. As long as you aren't playing in AL, it can't hurt to ask your gm stuff like that.


If you are telling me the race gets better with a homebrew buff, I will not argue with you. My lamentations on the race are based on that it feels like it needs it.:smallbiggrin:



Githzerai's int/wis combo is indeed odd right now, but artificer is int based so that +1 int +2 wis would make a 1 level dip into cleric for the free prepped spells & domain choice boons in order to really tweak out your abilities rather cheaply since an 11 becomes a 13 int based psionics archtypes may or may not be a good splash for a wis based character with 12+1 int when those eventually come along

They could be used now for a wizard with a cleric dip, but all of these races with two boosts in mental stats suffer from the same problem: In point buy you get the most out of the points if your racial boosts go to a stat over 13. Those points cost double, so applying racial boosts to anything lower is inefficient.

This effects dual mental score races most as basically every character needs con and either str or dex for some AC. That leaves only at most a 13 to an "off" mental stat to allow dipping.

In other words very few builds will have enough points to have a decent con, a str/dex that makes passable AC, and two mental stats above 13. If your race is boosting a 12 or lower, you are wasting points.

EDIT: I thought the designers recognized this problem, since they released the Feral Tiefling variant in SCAG (+2 dex/+1 Int) to fix his problem. Then in Volo's the new races that had two mental scores had very powerful features to balance it out. The Protecter Aasimar has limited flight attached to a great damage boost and the Yuan Ti has immunity to a common damage type and magic resistance. These features are powerful enough to counteract their flawed stat boosts. They were on the right track in the UA giving the Githzerai that AC boost, but dropped the ball hard.

[Tetrasodium]

If you are telling me the race gets better with a homebrew buff, I will not argue with you. My lamentations on the race are based on that it feels like it needs it.:smallbiggrin:



They could be used now for a wizard with a cleric dip, but all of these races with two boosts in mental stats suffer from the same problem: In point buy you get the most out of the points if your racial boosts go to a stat over 13. Those points cost double, so applying racial boosts to anything lower is inefficient.

This effects dual mental score races most as basically every character needs con and either str or dex for some AC. That leaves only at most a 13 to an "off" mental stat to allow dipping.

In other words very few builds will have enough points to have a decent con, a str/dex that makes passable AC, and two mental stats above 13. If your race is boosting a 12 or lower, you are wasting points.

you are wildly underestimating the flexibility of point buy. there is a full list of valid arrays here (https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/2epkdi/5e_here_is_a_complete_list_of_valid_ability_score/) what they trade in a bit of stat, they gain in soades from a multiclass dip. As to your dismissal of "work with your gm", not everyone plays AL. If he had said no, I would have swapped dex for something else (ie strength/cha/whatever) & taken the single point hit of using the racial medium armor instead of heavy. Not being hyper optimal on one single metric (prime attrib or whatever) doesn't make things bad, just different

Given your edit, I'll add that a wizard doesn't need to use strength for attacking because their spells & cantrips are based off int. having light/medium armor can make a huge difference compared to a single point of int

[PeteNutButter]

you are wildly underestimating the flexibility of point buy. there is a full list of valid arrays here (https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/2epkdi/5e_here_is_a_complete_list_of_valid_ability_score/) what they trade in a bit of stat, they gain in soades from a multiclass dip. As to your dismissal of "work with your gm", not everyone plays AL. If he had said no, I would have swapped dex for something else (ie strength/cha/whatever) & taken the single point hit of using the racial medium armor instead of heavy. Not being hyper optimal on one single metric (prime attrib or whatever) doesn't make things bad, just different

Emphasis Mine.

Not being optimal means not being... optimal.

Nowhere did I say you can't make the race viable and playable, just that it won't be optimal at much.

As for me "dismissing" the homebrewing, I'm not entirely dismissing the idea. I think it's great in fact. I'm merely pointing out that saying the race can get a homebrew buff by a DM, is actually an argument against the race, as it is now me and your DM that think the race is needing a buff.

[Tetrasodium]

Emphasis Mine.

Not being optimal means not being... optimal.

No where did I say you can't make the race viable and playable, just that it won't be optimal at much.

As for me "dismissing" the homebrewing, I'm not entirely dismissing the idea. I think it's great in fact. I'm merely pointing out that saying the race can get a homebrew buff by a DM, is actually an argument against the race, as it is now me and your DM that think the race is needing a buff.

no it meas having different metrics to be good at. "optimal" is more than just a single metric when you are talking about something as complex as a character that may or may not multiclass in a system as complex as d&d where you are almost certain to have other players at the table with you in the group. You have to look at it as a sum of its parts. An Abrams tank is a very awful way of delivering cargo, a semi truck is an awful weapons platform... a pickup truck with a large gun mounted in the bed can be pretty decent at both & much better than the other two depending on your needs.

stop looking at optimal as a single overly simplified metric that ignores the rest of a character.

edit: as to your needing a buff comment. It does not say that at all. All it says is that the race was not a perfect fit for a fighter1 wuzard whatever thing I had in mind. It was still very good for that kind of thing however. I wanted the character in heavy armor with crap dex in order to put points elsewhere, so I asked the gm about making that idea really effective for the more complexly optimized role I had in mind before shifting things around & maybe skipping the fighter level but using medium armor & better dex.

[PeteNutButter]

no it meas having different metrics to be good at. "optimal" is more than just a single metric when you are talking about something as complex as a character that may or may not multiclass in a system as complex as d&d where you are almost certain to have other players at the table with you in the group. You have to look at it as a sum of its parts. An Abrams tank is a very awful way of delivering cargo, a semi truck is an awful weapons platform... a pickup truck with a large gun mounted in the bed can be pretty decent at both & much better than the other two depending on your needs.

stop looking at optimal as a single overly simplified metric that ignores the rest of a character.

You are deliberately strawmanning my argument. Of course I'm taking in the whole picture.

Do you honestly think a Githyanki makes a better fighter 1/wizard x than a variant human? If not then admit that it isn't optimal. If you do think the Githyanki is as strong in that role then I'll agree to disagree and end the conversation.

The only other position is to question whether or not a fighter 1/wizard x is optimal in comparison to a straight wizard...



edit: as to your needing a buff comment. It does not say that at all. All it says is that the race was not a perfect fit for a fighter1 wuzard whatever thing I had in mind. It was still very good for that kind of thing however. I wanted the character in heavy armor with crap dex in order to put points elsewhere, so I asked the gm about making that idea really effective for the more complexly optimized role I had in mind before shifting things around & maybe skipping the fighter level but using medium armor & better dex.

...because you recognize that dipping fighter first would be more optimal than going straight wizard.

[Tetrasodium]

You are deliberately strawmanning my argument. Of course I'm taking in the whole picture.

Do you honestly think a Githyanki makes a better fighter 1/wizard x than a variant human? If not then admit that it isn't optimal. If you do think the Githyanki is as strong in that role then I'll agree to disagree and end the conversation.

The only other position is to question whether or not a fighter 1/wizard x is optimal in comparison to a straight wizard...



...because you recognize that dipping fighter first would be more optimal than going straight wizard.

variant human is its own special class of stupid... statistics even back that up (https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/is-your-dd-character-rare/). the feat choice is too attractive with variant human & in a lot of cases with few exceptions, wotc is still not factoring in the flexibility with as much weight as they should when designing new races. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't

[PeteNutButter]

variant human is its own special class of stupid... statistics even back that up (https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/is-your-dd-character-rare/). the feat choice is too attractive with variant human & in a lot of cases with few exceptions, wotc is still not factoring in the flexibility with as much weight as they should when designing new races. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't

Alas we agree. :smallbiggrin: Cheers.

[JakOfAllTirades]

You are deliberately strawmanning my argument. Of course I'm taking in the whole picture.

Do you honestly think a Githyanki makes a better fighter 1/wizard x than a variant human? If not then admit that it isn't optimal. If you do think the Githyanki is as strong in that role then I'll agree to disagree and end the conversation.

The only other position is to question whether or not a fighter 1/wizard x is optimal in comparison to a straight wizard...



...because you recognize that dipping fighter first would be more optimal than going straight wizard.

I'm not sure if nerfing your spell casting progression is ever optimal.

[Tetrasodium]

I'm not sure if nerfing your spell casting progression is ever optimal.

Different saves, ac bonus from defensive style can trip damage & proficiency bonus scales by character level. Toss in war wizard and that heavy armor wizard can reach silly levels of ac while sporting into based attacks. One level is not the end of the world as long as you get something that balances out
Edit:the other wizard archetypes brings their own stuff to the table too

[PeteNutButter]

I'm not sure if nerfing your spell casting progression is ever optimal.


Different saves, ac bonus from defensive style can trip damage & proficiency bonus scales by character level. Toss in war wizard and that heavy armor wizard can reach silly levels of ac while sporting into based attacks. One level is not the end of the world as long as you get something that balances out
Edit:the other wizard archetypes brings their own stuff to the table too

Yeah that's just the thing. A straight wizard is better at typical wizard things for sure. Most wizards that are interested in melee get wrecked if they don't invest a lot into it. They lack the AC the hp and the ability to hold concentration on their spells. The fighter level is just the most bang for you buck, and fixes most of those problems.

Even bladesingers that are built for melee tend to want to invest in Tough or avoid melee after a while.

[Tetrasodium]

Yeah that's just the thing. A straight wizard is better at typical wizard things for sure. Most wizards that are interested in melee get wrecked if they don't invest a lot into it. They lack the AC the hp and the ability to hold concentration on their spells. The fighter level is just the most bang for you buck, and fixes most of those problems.

Even bladesingers that are built for melee tend to want to invest in Tough or avoid melee after a while.

there is a group as well. "optimal" is not something that can be represented by a single value