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Ivellius
2018-11-15, 11:06 PM
I will console myself that more people really liked my submission...more seriously, that was something I didn't even spend that much time on, why did people like it?

Put me down as someone who thinks an extension makes sense.

pygmybatrider
2018-11-16, 04:19 AM
Wow, the new contest was perfect for the attempt at a warlock I had been putting together!

That warlord's a funny looking warlock! ;) I haven't looked too closely at the features yet but I love the names - couldn't get much more fitting than that.


I will console myself that more people really liked my submission...more seriously, that was something I didn't even spend that much time on, why did people like it?


As one of the ones who really liked it, it was a concept I'd never seen before, and it was so thematically consistent and mechanically fitting that I couldn't believe I hadn't seen a dozen other attempts at it. A really cool idea, well executed. 2 out of 8 ain't bad!

I just posted my first draft for this contest: the Space Oddity Warlock patron. It turned out well that the new contest came out on my last day of paternity leave - I could get the lion's share of the work for the contest done before I go back to work.

Inspired by David Bowie, a five-star performer and his five superstar alter egos: Ziggy Stardust, Aladdin Sane, The Thin White Duke, Halloween Jack and the Goblin King*. It's probably thematically more fitting for the slapdash contest just gone, but I think it works for this one as well.

There was another idea somewhere in my head about a butler-y rogue archetype, that is probably closer to the literal interpretation of the theme, but I don't know that I'll get around to it before the contest is over.

*a stretch, I know....but let's all play along ;)

MoleMage
2018-11-16, 08:59 AM
I've had a request for a rules clarification, so I will share the clarification here with no names mentioned:


Am I allowed to post a subclass outside of the contest to get input from others, then delete it and post it in the contest when I feel it is ready?

You cannot share your subclass prior to submitting it in any public fashion, even if it is later removed before being submitted. The discussion thread (this thread) is henceforth an exception: if you want feedback on an idea you think might be good, you can post it in the discussion thread before submitting it.

Also, because I haven't said it explicitly, sharing your work privately (such as in a non-public discord channel, or by printing it out and bringing it to your table, or even through the GitP messaging system) with your friends for feedback does not violate the contest rules. This is partly because I think that sharing ideas is an important part of the creative process, and partly because I don't really have any reasonable way to enforce a rule against private sharing without...you know...violating privacy which I am not willing to do.

I will expand the relevant rule (rule 4's) wording in the submissions thread to reflect these clarifications.


EDIT: We have one official request for an extension so far. Just gonna keep a running total in my posts here.

nickl_2000
2018-11-16, 09:04 AM
I've had a request for a rules clarification, so I will share the clarification here with no names mentioned:



You cannot share your subclass prior to submitting it in any public fashion, even if it is later removed before being submitted. The discussion thread (this thread) is henceforth an exception: if you want feedback on an idea you think might be good, you can post it in the discussion thread before submitting it.

Also, because I haven't said it explicitly, sharing your work privately (such as in a non-public discord channel, or by printing it out and bringing it to your table, or even through the GitP messaging system) with your friends for feedback does not violate the contest rules. This is partly because I think that sharing ideas is an important part of the creative process, and partly because I don't really have any reasonable way to enforce a rule against private sharing without...you know...violating privacy which I am not willing to do.

I will expand the relevant rule (rule 4's) wording in the submissions thread to reflect these clarifications.


EDIT: We have one official request for an extension so far. Just gonna keep a running total in my posts here.


You could have mentioned my name. I'm new to the contest thing and still felt the need to get input from others when it comes to subclasses and homebrew that I write :) Oh and thanks to everyone who voted last time around. It was a surprise to win the first time around

pygmybatrider
2018-11-16, 10:04 AM
You could have mentioned my name. I'm new to the contest thing and still felt the need to get input from others when it comes to subclasses and homebrew that I write :) Oh and thanks to everyone who voted last time around. It was a surprise to win the first time around

Congrats on the win nickl_2000! Well deserved - and a design that clearly resonated with a lot of people, and I think that really tilted the odds in your favour. Iím low on puns and energy at the moment, Iíve been knocked around a lot lately. I might edit this later when Iíve bounced back a bit ;)

edit: hooookay! In a fit of productivity I've scrapped the Bowie-warlock which has been relegated to my homebrew sig, as I felt it was too tangential to the theme. I offer instead the Estate Agent rogue, partly inspired by my recent dealings with them as Mrs PBR and I look to buy our new home. The features are still very rough, but at least they have names and descriptions - and I'm much more comfortable with the concept as a contest submission.

I'm not happy with the last dot point of the Force Majeure feature - seems far too niche for a rogue capstone. Need to find a way to make it come up in combat more often. Maybe speed is doubled on first turn of combat, and first attack is made with advantage to guarantee sneak attack - still getting yourself out of a tricky situation, more useful/relevant. Or this triggers as a reaction when you are attacked, giving potentially two sneak attacks in a round, once per rest.

Brainstorm of other potential features/edits:

* resistance/immunity to charmed condition
* some sort of money making/saving ability out-of-combat
* 'creature comforts' - some sort of party-wide buff on a short/long rest

theVoidWatches
2018-11-17, 11:45 AM
Warlock Patron: The Elder Drake

Not sure what this one has to do with Five Stars, TBH. I like it generally, though, except that I don't see why they should get metamagic, and I wish they had a feature or invocation that let them spend their dice pool to use a breath weapon.

SleeplessWriter
2018-11-17, 02:34 PM
Not sure what this one has to do with Five Stars, TBH. I like it generally, though, except that I don't see why they should get metamagic, and I wish they had a feature or invocation that let them spend their dice pool to use a breath weapon.

The idea was that the character would be able to collect, or even create, a hoard of treasure. Dragon's Favor was supposed to help with that, but I probably made it too weak. Maybe it should upgrade to 1d10 gold at tenth level? I was also a bit unsure of Enchanted Hoard and the amount of treasure you can bond with at once. I have a few invocations in mind that I need to write and I want to be able to limit their power.
The idea behind giving them metamagic was that maybe channeling so much of such a powerful dragon's power was beginning to give them sorcerous abilities while avoiding a Draconic sorcerer multiclass and straying too close to the broken coffeelock. Giving them metamagic fit that thematically while disincentivising a broken multiclass.
As for a breath weapon, I did give them Dragon's Breath in their expanded spell list, though I can see the lure of a non-spell dependent breath weapon. I'll consider it. Still, a twinned Dragon's Breath on you and your Pseudodragon familiar is pretty sweet for a third level warlock.

So far the biggest abuse I could see with this subclass comes from a six level foray into Tempest cleric, grabbing Dragon's Ire and Repelling blast for a twenty foot pushback per hit from Eldritch blast, which is why I limited it to Hexes cast from warlock spell slots. I don't know how else to fix that, and I'm not sure it's really as good as it sounds. The main reason for Dragon's Ire is really just to give Bladelocks a fair shake in this subclass without losing one of its core features.

Thanks for the feedback, though. More invocations incoming, hopefully they'll help tie the theme together a little more. I'll also likely revise or rewrite the two higher level features.

Icecaster
2018-12-01, 02:13 PM
Well, for the longest time I couldn't decide on an idea I really liked for Five Stars, but I've given my shot at it: here comes the Innkeeper, a warlock patron for those who, for some reason, ended up in his magical, extraplanar inn.

SleeplessWriter
2018-12-01, 03:52 PM
The Innkeeper warlock looks pretty good, I like it. The first level ability is pretty solid, shoring up the main weakness of friends every once in a while could make for some nice roleplaying moments, though if you already have persuasion I would limit the skill learned in its place to the warlock skill list to prevent people taking advantage of that to pick up obscure skills without multiclassing or having the background for it. The 6th and 10th level abilities are also pretty solid. The one thing about the 14th level ability I'd add is a small definition of what exactly is meant by "guests." Doesn't have to be much, maybe just half a sentence, but it'd be nice to know at least a little about how you can interact with them. Honestly, though, it'd be a lot of fun to walk into your fancy mansion thinking you'll finally get a bit of peace and quiet only to find a half-drunken goliath paladin singing drinking songs in the corner but your not allowed to to cast things like sleep on any of the guests.

I also like the Circle of Stars druid, both flavor wise and mechanically. Ceremonial Magic looks like a lot of fun to me, especially since I tend to like ritual magic (I even have a ritualist base class I've been toying around with lately), and the seasonal circle spells is a nice touch too. I also like the mechanics of the four houses, though I would say that the bookkeeping for which house you're in might be irksome to the type of DM who likes to skip over things like how many days it takes to travel somewhere, but I suppose a night or two studying the stars for Ceremonial Magic could help gloss over those types of things. I'd also limit House of the Stars to either advantage or disadvantage once per short rest, instead of getting both once per short rest. With two short rests that's six rolls modified, better than the lucky feat with less limitations except for only getting it every four days or so. Star Sigils and Star Traveler also look good, though I would specify how large the sigil has to be. Otherwise you could carve them all on an acorn or a small wooden bead and wear them around your neck.


I haven't got around to revising the Elder Drake patron yet (though I've got an idea for an invocation that lets you use Drawmij's Instant Summons on items from your enchanted hoard), and it'll probably be a little longer due to me being busy with finals week right now (I should be working on that but I'm goofing off at the moment), so put me down as one more in favor of an extension.
All around things are looking good, guys, I really like all the subclasses so far.

Icecaster
2018-12-02, 12:41 AM
The Innkeeper warlock looks pretty good, I like it. The first level ability is pretty solid, shoring up the main weakness of friends every once in a while could make for some nice roleplaying moments, though if you already have persuasion I would limit the skill learned in its place to the warlock skill list to prevent people taking advantage of that to pick up obscure skills without multiclassing or having the background for it. The 6th and 10th level abilities are also pretty solid. The one thing about the 14th level ability I'd add is a small definition of what exactly is meant by "guests." Doesn't have to be much, maybe just half a sentence, but it'd be nice to know at least a little about how you can interact with them. Honestly, though, it'd be a lot of fun to walk into your fancy mansion thinking you'll finally get a bit of peace and quiet only to find a half-drunken goliath paladin singing drinking songs in the corner but your not allowed to to cast things like sleep on any of the guests.

Thank you!:smallbiggrin: I went and fixed the skill part, and I agree about the defining-what-a-guest-is bit, but I'm not sure how to word it, so I'll come back to it soon.


I also like the Circle of Stars druid, both flavor wise and mechanically.

I very much agree. It's a cool way to utilize the druid chassis for something flavored of ye olde times. It's almost like it puts a different spin on the base class features themselves, which tickles me in my happy homebrew places.


I've got an idea for an invocation that lets you use Drawmij's Instant Summons on items from your enchanted hoard
That's a cool idea. I like the idea of mechanically rewarding such a subclass for having a horde, the whole concept is cool. Contests really bring people's best ideas front and center. I'll probably say more about you guys' things but in the meantime kudos to you all. So fabulous, so chic, so avant garde.

SleeplessWriter
2018-12-02, 11:35 PM
Thank you!:smallbiggrin: I went and fixed the skill part, and I agree about the defining-what-a-guest-is bit, but I'm not sure how to word it, so I'll come back to it soon.



I very much agree. It's a cool way to utilize the druid chassis for something flavored of ye olde times. It's almost like it puts a different spin on the base class features themselves, which tickles me in my happy homebrew places.


That's a cool idea. I like the idea of mechanically rewarding such a subclass for having a horde, the whole concept is cool. Contests really bring people's best ideas front and center. I'll probably say more about you guys' things but in the meantime kudos to you all. So fabulous, so chic, so avant garde.

Thanks!

I also just updated the Enchanted Hoard feature to something a little more complex but hopefully less clunky and more interesting, let me know what you think!
Glad you like the idea for the invocation too, 'cause I just added it. You can already get Drawmij's with a book of shadows and the ritual book invocation, so I figured a greedy character may not want to spend a sapphire like that every time they want something, and I added a way to keep it at a steep cost without breaking the spell.

Hoardkeeperís Call
Prerequisite: 11th level, The Elder Drake Patron.
You gain the ability to cast the spell Drawmijís Instant Summons as a ritual on an item from your enchanted hoard once per long rest. Also, if you cast Drawmijís Instant Summons in this way you may expend a number of dice from your Well of Power feature equal to at least half your warlock level when you use your action to summon the item to leave the sapphire intact but disenchanted instead of crushing it. A sapphire disenchanted by this ability may not be used to cast another instance of Drawmijís Instant Summons.

MoleMage
2018-12-03, 10:52 AM
I haven't got around to revising the Elder Drake patron yet (though I've got an idea for an invocation that lets you use Drawmij's Instant Summons on items from your enchanted hoard), and it'll probably be a little longer due to me being busy with finals week right now (I should be working on that but I'm goofing off at the moment), so put me down as one more in favor of an extension.
All around things are looking good, guys, I really like all the subclasses so far.


That's two in favor of extension. One more and we get two additional weeks of this subclass contest.

For my entry I'm thinking of breaking out my Alchemist (https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-LJBFMVHSiOIKkrdkq8U) from Requilac's Base Class Contest III and making a House of Gastronomy. A five-star chef, if you will. I just haven't decided what sort of identity to give it to make it stand out from the House of Pharmacology.

EDIT: Does anyone else have self-imposed challenges when creating Subclasses for this contest? I try to do a class I haven't already done each time. So if I've done Bard, Cleric, Barbarian, Sorcerer (slapdash), and Warlock, I want to do something I haven't already done.

nickl_2000
2018-12-03, 11:45 AM
There we go, I'm pretty happy with my post for the new subclass contest. Fighter Martial Archetype - Destined Warrior

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23509586&postcount=5

I'm very open to PMs or messages here about issues/improvements though.

Man_Over_Game
2018-12-04, 04:36 PM
That's two in favor of extension. One more and we get two additional weeks of this subclass contest.

For my entry I'm thinking of breaking out my Alchemist (https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-LJBFMVHSiOIKkrdkq8U) from Requilac's Base Class Contest III and making a House of Gastronomy. A five-star chef, if you will. I just haven't decided what sort of identity to give it to make it stand out from the House of Pharmacology.

EDIT: Does anyone else have self-imposed challenges when creating Subclasses for this contest? I try to do a class I haven't already done each time. So if I've done Bard, Cleric, Barbarian, Sorcerer (slapdash), and Warlock, I want to do something I haven't already done.

I always try to fill a niche that sounds fun and mechanically unique. Like a tactical/complex barbarian, an illusion-based Fighter, a Monk focused around "flash stepping" (like my prior submission), or something along those lines. There's already enough "simple" classes in the game that are easily reflavored, but coming up with something with a complex number of possibilities while seeming simple is a fun challenge.

MoleMage
2018-12-13, 09:12 PM
I'm going to cast the third vote for extension myself, mostly because I hope to see a couple more entries before wrapping this one up, but also because my own is one of the ones I want to see. So, consider this the official notice: the deadline is now December 30th instead of December 16th! First post and submissions thread to be updated accordingly as soon as I can get to them.

Ivellius
2018-12-15, 01:20 AM
I know it's very similar in concept to SunderedWorldDM's Oath of Hearth and Home, but my Oath of Feasting is up just in time for the holidays. I wanted to do a paladin, considered they've been short-shrifted on these (not my fault, at least), and I wanted to do something vaguely seasonal...and food seemed like the best "5-star" option I could ponder.

...Sorry for being so much alike, I just couldn't think of any other ideas that really clicked with me. Also the second food-related one I've done in a row. (I blame the theme, here.)

On the plus side, I did think of a really neat mechanic (well, in my opinion) that didn't fit well with the flavor here / had trouble finding room that I think will work really well for a class option down the road...

SunderedWorldDM
2018-12-15, 12:47 PM
I know it's very similar in concept to SunderedWorldDM's Oath of Hearth and Home, but my Oath of Feasting is up just in time for the holidays. I wanted to do a paladin, considered they've been short-shrifted on these (not my fault, at least), and I wanted to do something vaguely seasonal...and food seemed like the best "5-star" option I could ponder.

...Sorry for being so much alike, I just couldn't think of any other ideas that really clicked with me. Also the second food-related one I've done in a row. (I blame the theme, here.)

On the plus side, I did think of a really neat mechanic (well, in my opinion) that didn't fit well with the flavor here / had trouble finding room that I think will work really well for a class option down the road...

Well, may the best Oath win, I suppose! :smallwink: Which reminds me, I need to choose spells...

Kingsluger
2018-12-24, 08:46 PM
Can't say I've written for the monk before or played it really but I hope my submission wasn't too unbalanced. If anyone has any comments or suggestions on it, it'd be appreciated.

Ninja_Prawn
2018-12-25, 06:07 AM
Merry Christmas, all!


Can't say I've written for the monk before or played it really but I hope my submission wasn't too unbalanced. If anyone has any comments or suggestions on it, it'd be appreciated.

Hmm. The singular focus on 'strikes' turns me off. There should be at least one non-combat (or failing that, defensive) feature in there. This is just too samey.

2 Star Strike seems much too strong. No-save stunning is not something PCs should have access to at 3rd level (plus monks already gain a Stunning Strike at 5th level, so it's kind of redundant on a conceptual level), and then 4 Star Strike really highlights the problem - stunned is a more powerful condition than incapacitated, yet the 2 Star move is more likely to inflict it and there's much less of a limit on how often you can use it. I'd just cut the current 2 Star Strike and replace it with something that isn't a strike.

You spelled 'ki' wrong in 3 Star Strike. And it's very unusual to use the proficiency bonus in that way. I'd either make it a fixed number, or Wis mod times. Or just drop the requirement; ki is already a limited resource.

The rest is probably fine.

sengmeng
2018-12-26, 06:04 PM
Thought I'd throw my hat in the ring with the Wendigo. Will finish sometime. Sorry if the cannibalism steps on the themes of the Primal Gourmand, but... how was that related to winter?

Ninja_Prawn
2018-12-26, 06:06 PM
I think you're in the wrong thread, sengmeng...

sengmeng
2018-12-26, 07:20 PM
I think you're in the wrong thread, sengmeng...

Oops, yes I am. Disregard.

MoleMage
2018-12-27, 02:40 PM
I'm in just under the wire with the House of Gastronomy! Woo!

There probably isn't time to get feedback on it, especially with the various December holidays and the new year coming up in a few days, but I'm glad I did something at least.

SunderedWorldDM
2018-12-27, 03:25 PM
I've finally gotten the spells down for the Oath of Hearth and Home, and cleaned up the wording on some other abilities. I think it looks good to me, but I'd love the input of the Playground! I'll try and look at everyone else's submissions soon.

SunderedWorldDM
2018-12-27, 03:38 PM
Review time! First on the list: 5-star general!

One-Star Private
First of all, having advantage on all attack rolls while an ally is within 5 feet of you is... kind of insane, particularly for melee characters. I implore you to reconsider. Also, as far as the second part of the ability goes, it may just be me being a dumb, when can you use the reaction? After your ally has been targeted, but before the DM rolls? After the DM rolls, but before they say if it hits? After the DM says if it hits or misses? Does the attacker have to reroll the attack, or use the same total against your AC? A little bit of clarity might be nice.

Two-Star Corporal
Looks okay, though two skills and a nice ability might be a bit much. Again, clarity- when the fighter gets 3+ attacks, can they give away more than 1 per Attack action if they give them to different allies?

Three-Star Sargent
I'm confused as to what you mean by the first part of the ability, but the second part looks good. However, as it currently stands, you could do this as many times as you'd like, and free short rest healing isn't something I would take lightly... Maybe X times per long rest?

Four-Star Captain
Wait, you gain proficiency in the same skills... twice? Do you mean Expertise?

Five-Star General
Looks good! However you change One-Star, if you modify the ally boon in the same way, it should work well.

All in all, I like the theme, but some abilities might be overpowered or need to be clarified. Good job!

theVoidWatches
2018-12-27, 09:16 PM
Yeah, since originally writing the Warlock I've realized that it needs to be toned down some, and I'll be doing so before I post it after the contest is over. I'll also try to clarify the abilities.


One-Star Private
First of all, having advantage on all attack rolls while an ally is within 5 feet of you is... kind of insane, particularly for melee characters. I implore you to reconsider. Also, as far as the second part of the ability goes, it may just be me being a dumb, when can you use the reaction? After your ally has been targeted, but before the DM rolls? After the DM rolls, but before they say if it hits? After the DM says if it hits or misses? Does the attacker have to reroll the attack, or use the same total against your AC? A little bit of clarity might be nice.

Yeah, this in particular needs to be toned down. I originally thought it wouldn't be too bad because Wolf Totem barbarians also give free advantage on attacks, and to all their allies, not just themselves - but that's limited to melee attacks while this isn't. I'm not sure yet whether I'll add in more restrictions for its use or just give it a limited number of uses per short rest, but it'll definitely be toned down.

Second half of the ability is after your ally has been targeted, but before the DM rolls.


Two-Star Corporal
Looks okay, though two skills and a nice ability might be a bit much. Again, clarity- when the fighter gets 3+ attacks, can they give away more than 1 per Attack action if they give them to different allies?

As written, it only lets you give up one of your attacks. I'm not sure whether you should be able to give up more than one, TBH, considering 4-star captain's boost to this later.


Three-Star Sargent
I'm confused as to what you mean by the first part of the ability, but the second part looks good. However, as it currently stands, you could do this as many times as you'd like, and free short rest healing isn't something I would take lightly... Maybe X times per long rest?

Second wind gives you back 1d10+fighter level health. After you roll it, your allies get the same amount of health, but it's Temp HP for them.

And yeah, second part should probably be limited similarly to 1-star's advantage thing. I might make this either an Charisma or Intelligence-based subclass, and have their limits be equal to your modifier.


Four-Star Captain
Wait, you gain proficiency in the same skills... twice? Do you mean Expertise?

I, uh, wrote expertise, so... yes, that's what I mean.


Five-Star General
Looks good! However you change One-Star, if you modify the ally boon in the same way, it should work well.

I actually think the second half of this might be too strong considering that's instantly tacking on an extra 18-20 health, and since that originally wasn't limited, you could heal people for a HD+18 health repeatedly for out-of-combat healing. I'm going swap it out to have your Int/Cha modifier as the minimum roll on their die when they're healing from that ability instead.

MoleMage
2018-12-31, 06:16 PM
Sorry for the delay, I'll be sure to get the voting thread up tomorrow. Been a little under the weather over the weekend and I'm trying to get my brain back in gear.

MoleMage
2019-01-01, 12:53 PM
And the voting thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?577476-D-amp-D-Subclass-Contest-V-Voting-Thread&p=23606057#post23606057) is up!

Marcloure
2019-01-01, 04:21 PM
What was the theme for Contest V? It has a lot of star and feast related subclasses, but not all...

MoleMage
2019-01-01, 07:08 PM
The theme was Five Stars. Some took it as actual stars, some as restaurants or inns, and some as just wealth, all interpretations offered as examples in the intro post.

Little more open-ended than previous contests.

Ninja_Prawn
2019-01-02, 06:52 AM
more open-ended

The way it should be!

I mean, that is always my intention when I propose a theme. I'm aiming for something that could be interpreted in at least 3 clearly different ways.

Aside: I think it's funny that everyone's going for Keep it Simple, Stupid this time. That was meant to be a direct response to the first contest, It's Technical, but no one seemed into it at the time.

MoleMage
2019-01-08, 10:00 AM
Evil the Cat's Circle of Stars has a commanding early lead in the voting after the first week, with 18 points. One week remaining on the voting period.

In the next category votes, we have a tie between Keep it Simple, Stupid and Bunch of Fives with 7 points each, with My Way is Different receiving 6 points. Time will tell which pulls ahead.

MoleMage
2019-01-14, 08:09 PM
Alright the voting period is over and the results are in.

In 3rd place, with 7 points is Ivellius's Oath of Feasting. I'm especially fond of the aura of fresh baked bread smell, myself.

In 2nd place, with 10 points is Icecaster's Innkeeper Patron. Not all Warlock patrons have sinister designs. Some of them just want to spread comfort and good food!

In 1st place, with an outstanding 24 points is Evil the Cat's Circle of Stars. Because nature doesn't stop at the sky, and the seasons are part of the cycle of life and druids really should acknowledge that.

Thanks everyone for playing, and I hope to see you making subclasses again in our next contest: Bunch of Fives! We're moving into the sixth contest, but the theme of five is with us forever now. Our runners up for theme was a tie between Keep it Simple, Stupid and Subsystems Online, so we will see both of those return in next month's voting thread alongside three other random themes. Look for Contest VI shortly once I get it formatted!

Votes are tallied and results are in! EDIT: I have posted the thread for Contest VI: Bunch of Fives (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?578579-D-amp-D-Subclass-Contest-VI-Bunch-of-Fives&p=23637385#post23637385)! Let's brew!

theVoidWatches
2019-01-14, 09:22 PM
Going for a much simpler subclass here with a Bardic College of the Fist - plain a simple, makes you a bardic monk. Bardic Inspiration dice tend to be larger than Martial Arts dice, but you have no bonus action attack until level 14 (and then after casting, not after punching) and no flurry of blows ever, so... hopefully that's okay. On the other hand, a 1-level dip into Monk (while MAD) would give you a bonus action attack and let you use Dex instead of Strength, so... might need to stew on it for a while before posting it in the subclass thread itself.

Still, I don't see it changing hugely. It follows the pattern of the other martial bards (a defense feature and a BI-related offensive feature at level 3, extra attack at level 6, bonus-action attack after casting a spell at level 14), I'm just a little worried when comparing it to the monk - monks get lots of other stuff, of course, but bards are full casters...

It's also maybe a little bland. It really is basically "you're a bard who punches stuff" - Valor bards are similarly basic, I think, but Swords, Glamour, Whispers, and Lore Bards all have their own little special things (often involving special uses for BI dice, which didn't seem to have a place in this subclass). I might think of a more interesting idea later.


Bardic College of the Fist
All bards seek beauty - to find it, to create it, and to inspire it in others. Most bards find beauty in music, producing wonders to delight the ears, or in stories, ancient lore and lost knowledge. Some bards find beauty in battle, dancing in and out of combat with swords flashing or telling tales of their companions' glory. Some bards find beauty in the enchantments woven by the fae, or in the subtle art of manipulation. And some bards find beauty in the physical form, in muscles and sweat and a clenched fist.

Unarmored Defense
Beginning at 3rd level, while you are wearing no armor and not wielding a shield, your AC equals 10 + your Dexterity modifier + your Charisma modifier.

Force of Personality
Beginning at 3rd level, whenever you deal damage with an unarmed strike, you can roll a die equal in size to your Bardic Inspiration die in place of the normal damage of your unarmed strike.

Extra Attack
Beginning at 6th level, you can attack twice, instead of once, when you take the attack action on your turn.

Inspired Blow
Beginning at 14th level, when you use your action to cast a bard spell, you may make an unarmed strike as a bonus action.

nickl_2000
2019-01-16, 09:14 AM
My second/third/eleventh? crack at this (started before I saw theVoidWatches post, but luckily they are different enough that I feel like it isn't plagiarism :smallcool:). Let me know if you see any issues with it so I can adjust it as times goes on.


Here is a link to the post in the contest string http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23643058&postcount=4

Unavenger
2019-01-16, 10:08 AM
So, punching seems like monk to me, but then on the other hand all monks punch so they don't need another subclass to be a monk. The other classes sorta need a subclass to be a monk but then I dunno which class to give punchy stuff to - IDK if "Monk: the Subclass" can be a thing but that's my initial idea maybe?

nickl_2000
2019-01-16, 12:02 PM
Force of Personality
Beginning at 3rd level, whenever you deal damage with an unarmed strike, you can roll a die equal in size to your Bardic Inspiration die in place of the normal damage of your unarmed strike.


So, I'm not saying it is wrong here, but bardic inspiration die is
d6 level 2-8, d8 level 9-12, d10 level 13-16, d12 level 17+

Monk damage die is:
d4 level 1-4, d6 level 5-10, d8 level 11-16, and d10 level 17+

So, the bard here is doing more damage with an unarmed strike than a monk for most levels. Not really the most horrible thing, but something to consider since you don't want to take away from the monk.

theVoidWatches
2019-01-16, 02:02 PM
Definitely something to consider (especially because BI is actually even faster than that - d8 at level 5, d10 at 10, d12 at 15). On the other hand, this bard would be even more MAD than a monk - you don't get to use Dex for your unarmed strikes, so you want Str - you want Dex for AC - and you want Cha for spells and AC.

1 level of monk changes that though... maybe specify that you have to use Strength for your attack in order to use the BI die as the damage?

SleeplessWriter
2019-01-16, 02:31 PM
So, punching seems like monk to me, but then on the other hand all monks punch so they don't need another subclass to be a monk. The other classes sorta need a subclass to be a monk but then I dunno which class to give punchy stuff to - IDK if "Monk: the Subclass" can be a thing but that's my initial idea maybe?

If you don't know what class to give "punchy stuff" too, I would suggest maybe a barbarian subclass, since they always seemed a little lackluster for unarmed combat and such. Could be a lot of fun there.
Personally, I've decided to go for a monk-like, bar-brawling rogue who's an expert at starting and escaping bar brawls, with a cheese wheel and a cask of ale beneath each arm.

As for theVoidWatches' problem, I'd either limit it to once per turn to prevent monk multiclass shenanigans, or make it expend a use of bardic inspiration. Maybe expend a use of bardic inspiration when you make an attack to make your unarmed strikes deal damage equal to your bardic inspiration die for the rest of the turn? I don't know, just throwing out some ideas to help

MoleMage
2019-01-16, 03:28 PM
If you don't know what class to give "punchy stuff" too, I would suggest maybe a barbarian subclass, since they always seemed a little lackluster for unarmed combat and such. Could be a lot of fun there.
Personally, I've decided to go for a monk-like, bar-brawling rogue who's an expert at starting and escaping bar brawls, with a cheese wheel and a cask of ale beneath each arm.

As for theVoidWatches' problem, I'd either limit it to once per turn to prevent monk multiclass shenanigans, or make it expend a use of bardic inspiration. Maybe expend a use of bardic inspiration when you make an attack to make your unarmed strikes deal damage equal to your bardic inspiration die for the rest of the turn? I don't know, just throwing out some ideas to help

I do think the level 3 feature should expend Inspiration rather than just key to its size. But making a basic attack routine rely on that expenditure might be too pricey (especially when Valor could get the same weapon die size for free with a Shortsword/Rapier/Longsword2h/Greataxe respectively).

Personally I think I'm going to do an Oath of the Sacred Fist. I need to find where I put those 3.5 materials to see if I want to borrow any of the Sacred Fist PrC.

Unavenger
2019-01-16, 03:37 PM
If you don't know what class to give "punchy stuff" too, I would suggest maybe a barbarian subclass, since they always seemed a little lackluster for unarmed combat and such. Could be a lot of fun there.
Personally, I've decided to go for a monk-like, bar-brawling rogue who's an expert at starting and escaping bar brawls, with a cheese wheel and a cask of ale beneath each arm.

Hmm, see, I almost wanna make it so that it's like grafting on some monk features instead of your subclass, but then I kinda want to be able to do that with all of the classes, except monk itself, to make it a "Take this subclass rather than fiddling around with the multiclassing rules!" thing. But I could also go with a barbarian path I guess.

EDIT: *Looks at previous contests; finds exactly this only for rogue, warlock and bard* Is... is this a thing? Or did someone just decide to do it?

Whatever, I think I know what I'm making now.

theVoidWatches
2019-01-16, 03:50 PM
Maybe level 3 lets you punch with 1d4 (upgrading to 1d6 at, say, level 9, and 1d8 and 15 - a reasonable progression but behind the Monk's), and you can spend Bardic Inspiration to add it to the damage whenever you hit with an unarmed attack? It feels weird to have it be so limited (I mean, 5 weak smite's per short rest) but there's just so little space for power in a full spell-caster's subclasses.

MoleMage
2019-01-16, 04:15 PM
Hmm, see, I almost wanna make it so that it's like grafting on some monk features instead of your subclass, but then I kinda want to be able to do that with all of the classes, except monk itself, to make it a "Take this subclass rather than fiddling around with the multiclassing rules!" thing. But I could also go with a barbarian path I guess.

EDIT: *Looks at previous contests; finds exactly this only for rogue, warlock and bard* Is... is this a thing? Or did someone just decide to do it?

Whatever, I think I know what I'm making now.

Jormengand was doing that as a running theme, but they haven't been around for the last couple contests.


Maybe level 3 lets you punch with 1d4 (upgrading to 1d6 at, say, level 9, and 1d8 and 15 - a reasonable progression but behind the Monk's), and you can spend Bardic Inspiration to add it to the damage whenever you hit with an unarmed attack? It feels weird to have it be so limited (I mean, 5 weak smite's per short rest) but there's just so little space for power in a full spell-caster's subclasses.

Maybe you can expend BI as a bonus action to make an unarmed attack improved by your BI result? Kinda mimics flurry that way, which can be good and bad, but it's nicer than just a weak smite since it gives you an extra attack.

EDIT: Also, the first draft of Sacred Fist is on the submissions thread. I think I might drop Divine Fist entirely, but I haven't decided yet.

Unavenger
2019-01-16, 04:34 PM
Jormengand was doing that as a running theme, but they haven't been around for the last couple contests.

"Haven't been around" is a slight understatement, it would seem. Fortunately, I have it on discord, so I can just ask it for permission to keep the theme going.

The Cats
2019-01-16, 10:02 PM
Ghooooooost PUUUUUUUNCH

edit: El Ponche Fantasma sounds like a pretty good luchador name (ignoring the google translate grammar). Multiclass?

Unavenger
2019-01-17, 11:17 AM
So, this was harder than I thought. There are some rules you can follow (like "Paladin always gets the other class's capstone; fighter and sorcerer always get one of their strongest non-capstone abilities" and "Warlock and wizard can mostly do the thing as each other") but... I think monk is actually a pretty difficult one to do. Also, rogue is a pain because it's the only class without a subclass ability at level 6 or 7, so you have to push all the stuff you were gonna give them at those levels about a bit.

I'm also acutely aware that cleric (monk), druid (monk) and ranger (monk) have a natural advantage because of the wisdom synergy, but I hope that this is balanced out by the fact that the cleric would have been wandering around in medium or heavy armour otherwise, the druid wants to be spending a lot of time in a form with natural armour anyway, and the ranger is bad and needed the boost.

I do also feel, looking at it immediately, that bard (monk) is just bad... or is it just that bard doesn't get much from subclasses anyway? I dunno, I just hope that martial arts and unarmoured defence match up to three skill proficiencies and a new inspiration use, or that ki, unarmed movement and deflect missiles are as good as two extra spells known. I guess it works, if you're willing to deal with the MADness it entails.

Barbarian is also looking super-lonely with just that one ability, which isn't even a very strong one. I guess that being able to make a versatile 1d8 spear attack and follow it up with a 1d3 kick isn't awful, but you could just be wielding two handaxes. I know... *edits* now the barbarian can use their dex and still get rage bonuses and stuff. Not ideal, bit of a bodge, but it works. There must be a lot of low-strength high-dex barbarians at level 1 and 2 who can't wait to get their subclass. :smalltongue:

Any thoughts from the crowd?

Ivellius
2019-01-17, 11:40 AM
Hm...forgot there was a Strength Domain in the Amonkhet Plane Shift, but...it's not very much like the Strength Domain of previous editions, so I think that's where I'm headed.

I'm also honestly surprised I haven't done a Strength Domain in all of my previous homebrew. I half-expected to find this one already.

Edit: As much as I hate coming up with something new when what I want already exists, I guess I need to figure out a new CD, even if the Rhonas one is perfect. But initial explorations are going well, I think.

MoleMage
2019-01-17, 01:20 PM
Adjusted the general focus on Oath of the Sacred Fist. Now they lean into grappling a lot more. Considering giving Improved Divine Grasp the ability to have grapple attempts crit, but that might be too much.

Unavenger
2019-01-17, 02:03 PM
So, some quick critiques:

- Oath of the sacred fist is actually better at punching than monks at low levels. The +1 bonus to AC while not using a shield seems better for two-handing than UAS. The later abilities, however, seem very overspecialised on grappling to the point of letting you down if grappling is difficult, impossible or inadvisable.
- Ghost Fist: Ranged UAS seems a little too good. Being able to deflect missiles that aren't even aimed at you seems like too much to be part of the same ability. Ghost gloves, on the other hand, seems hilariously situational, and One Big Punch seems a little sad as a 17th-level ability.
- Luchador: That AC calculation is weird; trash talking is very similar conceptually to cutting words, and honestly it feels as though people are going to take this subclass just to have AC depending on their CHA instead of their DEX.
- College of the Fist: Seems like a very... well, ordinary way of adding punching stuff to a bard. Not that that's a bad thing, mind.
- Pilferer: "Thongs" and "Fingera". Also, a bonus action to tell you everything someone has on their possession, no matter how well they try to hide it, is ridiculously good. The fact that someone can only tell that you've done it, not do anything to stop you, is an artefact of 3.5-era rules that I'm not a fan of. I would suggest rewording the "Unlawfully" requirement because it's weirdly location-dependant. Steal Life is weak for a 1/day ability, and rogues based on UASing should be able to SA UAS anyway.

The Cats
2019-01-17, 02:27 PM
So, some quick critiques:

- Ghost Fist: Ranged UAS seems a little too good. Being able to deflect missiles that aren't even aimed at you seems like too much to be part of the same ability. Ghost gloves, on the other hand, seems hilariously situational, and One Big Punch seems a little sad as a 17th-level ability.

Ranged unarmed strike is the Sun Soul 3rd level ability, but not radiant. I'll probably move either grasping or snatching hands to 6th level and baleet the other one. Can't decide which though. Ghost Gloves was designed with hilarity in mind, and comes bundled with bonus action Helping and Grasping hands. Open to suggestions on improving One Big Punch. I though getting to cast a super versatile 5th level spell up to twice per short rest (leaving a lil ki left over) was pretty solid but eh, maybe I'm wrong.


edit: Updooted. Grasping hands is gone. Snatching hands is gained at 6th level and costs 1 ki to activate. Ki cost to activate is removed at 11th level. One Big Punch doesn't cost ki and can be used 1/short rest, no longer interferes with Spectral Hands abilities.

sengmeng
2019-01-17, 02:39 PM
So the Pilferer is up. I think it could use a power boost, but I'd like a second/third/nth opinion.

Feels good to be posting here on purpose.

Unavenger
2019-01-17, 03:14 PM
So the Pilferer is up. I think it could use a power boost, but I'd like a second/third/nth opinion.

Feels good to be posting here on purpose.

Already commented on it. :smalltongue:

Vogie
2019-01-17, 03:35 PM
Master Hand is up! I'm happy to be back in the swing of things...

Yes, SSB. My girls got a Switch for Christmas, what can you do?
I like the idea that you could have your mage hand reload dual wielding pair of hand crossbows. It's not necessary, but fun to have exist.
I tried to word this so that ANY patron can collect the Pact of the Glove, and that the patron can choose other pacts that aren't Pact of the Glove.
Those who do pick up the pact of the Glove will be able to do the bonus action attack 3 levels earlier, and will have double the range with it the hand.
The expanded spell list is based on general telekinetic abilities.
I liked throwing in the option to become a slightly different Ranged monk. I wanted to throw in a Hundred-Handed-One reference somehow... if you have an idea, please let me know.
Also, a better 4th level spell in lieu of Arcane Eye would be appreciated.

sengmeng
2019-01-17, 03:55 PM
Already commented on it. :smalltongue:

Prompt :)

I made some adjustments, clarifications, and corrections.

Frisk is now limited to information you can tell by touch, i.e., you would know they have a dry old human hand, not the Hand of Vecna.

No changes to Sticky Fingers or "Borrow" Weapon.

Hijack Attunement is a little more defined, but I'm considering making it just work if it's attuned to someone else.

Steal Life is now always on, but can't heal you past half your total.

The Cats
2019-01-17, 03:56 PM
edit: Updooted. Grasping hands is gone. Snatching hands is gained at 6th level and costs 1 ki to activate. Ki cost to activate is removed at 11th level. One Big Punch doesn't cost ki and can be used 1/short rest, no longer interferes with Spectral Hands abilities.

Updoot 2: Added the ki cost and spectral hands limitations of One Big Punch back in. Made it summon two big ol' hands instead of one.

MoleMage
2019-01-17, 04:47 PM
So, some quick critiques:

- Oath of the sacred fist is actually better at punching than monks at low levels. The +1 bonus to AC while not using a shield seems better for two-handing than UAS. The later abilities, however, seem very overspecialised on grappling to the point of letting you down if grappling is difficult, impossible or inadvisable.


I was comparing damage not to monks, but to other paladins. They sacrifice 2h damage output (1d10/2d6) or 1AC (compared to sword and board) in exchange for bonus action grapple and the ability to smite-grapple. This is also why they can't make unarmed attacks with their flurry equivalent and why their strikes do not scale (as paladin already has attack scaling in the base class). I might dial it down to 1d6, but then I think that this would fall too far behind other paladins until level 15 lets you get a bonus action Improved Divine Smite.

I went and modified the +1 AC (no longer works while you wield a weapon OR use a shield). Improved Divine Grasp now allows you to make Athletics checks against your target's AC to deal the damage from Divine Grasp/Improved Divine Grasp, but they are not grappled.

Icecaster
2019-01-17, 11:35 PM
I'm excited for the new contest, a bit of inspiration struck me early this time. Soon, I'll be posting my arcane tradition: The Gauntleteer, after a bit of polish. Before that, though, I'd love to talk a bit about the other submissions thus far, because all of them seem super good, and it would be a darn crime not to review it. Besides, who doesn't like a little feedback?

I like the almost ascetic flavor of the tenets, and I think that the flavor gives just enough of a nod towards the monk without ever stepping on the monk's toes. The oath spells seem lackluster to me, and for the most part don't add much to the flavor for me, unfortunately. I would imagine this is in part that you've discovered a difficult theme to fit spells from, but I still find myself disappointed by the options. Also, I do find it odd that Unarmed Combat gives proficiency in Athletics only on grapple. I might suggest opening that up to shove attempts as well, although I don't think a blanket Athletics proficiency would be too powerful either. Smite-grapple sounds cool to me, and probably shores up the damage weakness of most grapple-builds. The wording for Improved Divine Grasp could use some tinkering, in my opinion. Towards the end it becomes hard to follow. You could replace the "the damage from Improved Divine Smite" with just 1d8 radiant damage, I think, since it never scales or changes and would reduce wordiness and page-searching. I'm also confused on the meaning of "use Divine Grasp" in the second-to-last sentence there. Does that mean grappling the creature or smiting it? If the former, what benefit does this confer if the creature is not under the grappled condition? If the latter, I suggest revising it to simply say using Divine Smite as opposed to referring to another feature that then refers you to Divine Smite. The second part of Improved Divine Grasp also does not have any portion specifying when you can use the Athletics check against AC. Can you do this as an action? Can you do it in place of another attack as an unarmed strike? I'm left with several questions about this feature. Overall, I love the flavor of the oath, and it seems very nearly perfectly polished. I can definitely see myself playing a medieval-style monk-turned-knight putting a demon in a choke hold and searing its neck with divine radiance spilling forth from his hands like molten gold.


Fluff-wise, I greatly appreciate the pun, and I appreciate the story this creates. The subclass clearly lays out what differs these monks from other monks, gives them a specific theme and direction, and gives a backbone of a backstory through the bond with a ghost. I have very little complaints with the Spectral Hands feature. Kudos on the language, especially for Snatching Hands. That's some fancy footwork of the English and D&D languages. Ghost Gloves sounds like a cool feature, but I think it's probably worth pointing out two problems with this feature that could severely hamper its usefulness. First, I can't think of very many glove or gauntlet magic items, so the likelihood of this coming into play without the DM handpicking items for players or adding homebrew items (both of which, I personally do frequently, but for other games, it) will probably end up low. Second, 5e was based largely on the concept that a party doesn't need magical items to complete tasks and magic items are only ever an additional bonus. However, this ability keys solely off of the monk receiving a magic item. This means that the feature is really only as useful as the DM allows it to be. I would personally consider adding something else into the feature to offer some other, more consistent bonus, even if it's not big or even combat-related, but I wouldn't call it a dealbreaker. One Big Punch seems appropriately balanced for 17th level, although it seems more like two big punches if anything :smallwink:


Hm, yes I've seen bardic grapple builds. This one. This one looks like the Extremely CorrectTM way to do it. I like the mask as an arcane focus. I'm always wary of sub/classes that key off of craftable (and, more importantly, loseable) items, but hey, luchador. Third level seems just a tad too busy. Also, does the unarmored defense/martial arts/athletics & acrobatics proficiency have anything to do with the mask? Or are they just there under the mask feature? Do I only get these bonuses while wearing the mask? As for Trash Talking, "ability being used" mechanically refers to nothing in particular, so I would recommend either removing this vestigial phrase or rewording. I also find myself confused at the ability, which decreases the save DC, making it easier for the save to be passed - essentially a bonus to a creature's saving throw - which doesn't correlate with sapping opponents' resolve and focus. Mythical Wrestler is cool, although I might reword it slightly. The feature says it doesn't cost a bonus action or reaction, so does it cost an action? Or is no action required? Overall, you have what I find a very strong base, but the overall feel is that you had a lot of ideas and features that you wanted to use and ended up squeezing them all into the one subclass. I would suggest a bit of trimming and polishing, but otherwise you have yourself a solid work, sir.

I, uh... I'm not sure how to go about reviewing this; it's not really my area of knowledge. I like the spells you added in an attempt to achieve a monk flavor of spellcasting, and, of course, you've hit the theme dead on. Using the d3 as a martial arts die seems like a negligible and difficult differentiation from a d4. If I were to have a player use this, I would probably bump it up to a d4 for the sake of ease and have the damage increase at 11th level. As far as I can tell, this is good work. (I think?) Either way, you have my respect for tackling such a task.

I'll review the rest later when I get some time, but with a glancing overview, the Pilferer sticks out to me as thematically interesting, and certainly an intriguing take on the theme.

The Cats
2019-01-18, 12:02 AM
Yeah, I was way more proud than anyone has a right to be with that subclass's dumb name.

re: Ghost gloves. Ghost punchers also get bonus action Helping Hands and ki-less Snatching Hands at the same level. It's designed to be one of those tacked-on situational ribbon that's useless except when it's not. Just looks like a core feature since it takes a high word count to finagle how to work it. Fits the ridiculous theme of the brew too well to cut though.

... Two Big Punches just doesn't have that ring to it...

nickl_2000
2019-01-18, 07:46 AM
Hm, yes I've seen bardic grapple builds. This one. This one looks like the Extremely CorrectTM way to do it. I like the mask as an arcane focus. I'm always wary of sub/classes that key off of craftable (and, more importantly, loseable) items, but hey, luchador. Third level seems just a tad too busy. Also, does the unarmored defense/martial arts/athletics & acrobatics proficiency have anything to do with the mask? Or are they just there under the mask feature? Do I only get these bonuses while wearing the mask? As for Trash Talking, "ability being used" mechanically refers to nothing in particular, so I would recommend either removing this vestigial phrase or rewording. I also find myself confused at the ability, which decreases the save DC, making it easier for the save to be passed - essentially a bonus to a creature's saving throw - which doesn't correlate with sapping opponents' resolve and focus. Mythical Wrestler is cool, although I might reword it slightly. The feature says it doesn't cost a bonus action or reaction, so does it cost an action? Or is no action required? Overall, you have what I find a very strong base, but the overall feel is that you had a lot of ideas and features that you wanted to use and ended up squeezing them all into the one subclass. I would suggest a bit of trimming and polishing, but otherwise you have yourself a solid work, sir.



Hey, thanks for looking it over and giving feedback! I will look it all over and see if I can clear some things up and polish it up some more. I agree about keying off craftable items, but what is a Luchador without his mask? I may re-write it to make the mask a bardic focus only and then you also get the other abilities.

For the bardic inspiration idea I wanted the idea to be that by trash talking you were able to sap the persons confidence and therefore reduce the effectiveness of a spell being cast. So, you reduce the DC of the spell being cast. This has a very important distinction from boosting a persons save. That distinction is for area effect spells, if I reduce the DC of a fireball, everyone in it gets a better chance of a save. I still may re-work it and replace the concept some.

The Cats
2019-01-18, 08:53 AM
... trash talking...

I think this is something that is at first glance really similar to cutting words, but when you stop and think about it you realize it`s a completely different ability mechanically (albeit with similar fluff) It`s less versatile, but more effective in the situations it comes in to play (reducing the chance for the spell to happen altogether (as opposed to doing the same for an attack, which takes no resources), or giving everyone in a AoE a better chance at half damage (rather than reducing the damage a bit)). I think it`s a great take on the bard`s 3rd level `use inspiration for not-inspiring`ability.

Icecaster
2019-01-18, 08:58 AM
re: Ghost gloves. Ghost punchers also get bonus action Helping Hands and ki-less Snatching Hands at the same level.

Ohh, I completely missed that, my apologies.


... Two Big Punches just doesn't have that ring to it...

Haha, definitely not, I was just being cheeky.


Hey, thanks for looking it over and giving feedback!

A pleasure to do so!


For the bardic inspiration idea I wanted the idea to be that by trash talking you were able to sap the persons confidence and therefore reduce the effectiveness of a spell being cast. So, you reduce the DC of the spell being cast. This has a very important distinction from boosting a persons save. That distinction is for area effect spells, if I reduce the DC of a fireball, everyone in it gets a better chance of a save. I still may re-work it and replace the concept some.

Now that you explain it, the feature makes much more sense. A little bit of tweaking with wording and whatnot to make that flavor aspect a tad bit clearer would be a good idea in my opinion, but mechanics-wise the feature looks fine to me.

The Cats
2019-01-18, 09:17 AM
Haha, definitely not, I was just being cheeky.


Well yeah, but now you said it you`re right; it doesn't make sense since I changed it to summon TWO big fists!

One-Two Punchers? Fat-Ghost-Fist Technique? Giant Spooky Hands? :smallsigh::smalleek:

nickl_2000
2019-01-18, 10:10 AM
I think this is something that is at first glance really similar to cutting words, but when you stop and think about it you realize it`s a completely different ability mechanically (albeit with similar fluff) It`s less versatile, but more effective in the situations it comes in to play (reducing the chance for the spell to happen altogether (as opposed to doing the same for an attack, which takes no resources), or giving everyone in a AoE a better chance at half damage (rather than reducing the damage a bit)). I think it`s a great take on the bard`s 3rd level `use inspiration for not-inspiring`ability.

Actually one thing I really like about the ability is that it encourages teamwork. It encourages a teammate to use their reaction to identify the spell, so you can choose when a good time to use it is.

MoleMage
2019-01-18, 10:19 AM
I'm excited for the new contest, a bit of inspiration struck me early this time. Soon, I'll be posting my arcane tradition: The Gauntleteer, after a bit of polish. Before that, though, I'd love to talk a bit about the other submissions thus far, because all of them seem super good, and it would be a darn crime not to review it. Besides, who doesn't like a little feedback?

I like the almost ascetic flavor of the tenets, and I think that the flavor gives just enough of a nod towards the monk without ever stepping on the monk's toes. The oath spells seem lackluster to me, and for the most part don't add much to the flavor for me, unfortunately. I would imagine this is in part that you've discovered a difficult theme to fit spells from, but I still find myself disappointed by the options. Also, I do find it odd that Unarmed Combat gives proficiency in Athletics only on grapple. I might suggest opening that up to shove attempts as well, although I don't think a blanket Athletics proficiency would be too powerful either. Smite-grapple sounds cool to me, and probably shores up the damage weakness of most grapple-builds. The wording for Improved Divine Grasp could use some tinkering, in my opinion. Towards the end it becomes hard to follow. You could replace the "the damage from Improved Divine Smite" with just 1d8 radiant damage, I think, since it never scales or changes and would reduce wordiness and page-searching. I'm also confused on the meaning of "use Divine Grasp" in the second-to-last sentence there. Does that mean grappling the creature or smiting it? If the former, what benefit does this confer if the creature is not under the grappled condition? If the latter, I suggest revising it to simply say using Divine Smite as opposed to referring to another feature that then refers you to Divine Smite. The second part of Improved Divine Grasp also does not have any portion specifying when you can use the Athletics check against AC. Can you do this as an action? Can you do it in place of another attack as an unarmed strike? I'm left with several questions about this feature. Overall, I love the flavor of the oath, and it seems very nearly perfectly polished. I can definitely see myself playing a medieval-style monk-turned-knight putting a demon in a choke hold and searing its neck with divine radiance spilling forth from his hands like molten gold.


I fixed the wording of Improved Divine Grasp and made Unarmed Combat give proficiency in all Athletics checks. Essentially the second part is a way to get your BA grapples in on creatures too large or too strong/nimble to otherwise grapple. You don't lock them in place, but you do still channel the energy from (Improved) Divine Smite through your hand into them.

The spells are, for the moment, tentative. I'm pretty sold on Hold Person, Hold Monster, Enlarge/Reduce, and Freedom of Movement as they all make sense for a grappler build. Protection from Energy, Death Ward, and Dispel Evil and Good fit with a theme of mystic defenses, but the class ended up only having one Channel Divinity that fit that theme, so maybe I should duck away from it more. Bless, Guiding Bolt, and Clairvoyance were outright filler, and I am going to go back in and find more suitable options for those (possibly from XGtA). I'm open to suggestions, too.

nickl_2000
2019-01-18, 11:10 AM
Hm, yes I've seen bardic grapple builds. This one. This one looks like the Extremely CorrectTM way to do it. I like the mask as an arcane focus. I'm always wary of sub/classes that key off of craftable (and, more importantly, loseable) items, but hey, luchador. Third level seems just a tad too busy. Also, does the unarmored defense/martial arts/athletics & acrobatics proficiency have anything to do with the mask? Or are they just there under the mask feature? Do I only get these bonuses while wearing the mask? As for Trash Talking, "ability being used" mechanically refers to nothing in particular, so I would recommend either removing this vestigial phrase or rewording. I also find myself confused at the ability, which decreases the save DC, making it easier for the save to be passed - essentially a bonus to a creature's saving throw - which doesn't correlate with sapping opponents' resolve and focus. Mythical Wrestler is cool, although I might reword it slightly. The feature says it doesn't cost a bonus action or reaction, so does it cost an action? Or is no action required? Overall, you have what I find a very strong base, but the overall feel is that you had a lot of ideas and features that you wanted to use and ended up squeezing them all into the one subclass. I would suggest a bit of trimming and polishing, but otherwise you have yourself a solid work, sir.


Level 3: renamed and touched up to reduce it in power and make it less dependent on the mask.
Level 3 bardic inspiration: renamed and refluffed to explain it a little better. Also made it only work for spells, not abilities (sorry no more dragon fire)
Level 6: Added in the extra damage here and kept the pin ability as it was
Level 14: reworded the viscous mockery ability to be simpler and easier (hopefully) to read. Made the enlarge ability a bonus action only usable when wearing the mask.

Icecaster
2019-01-18, 04:57 PM
Continued reviews:

Fluff is nice. It's compelling, and paints a picture for how this specific subclass of bard fits in with other subclasses of bard in both similarity and difference. Unarmored defense is understandable given the apparent power-from-the-body theme, and the idea of a bard unlocking that secret and shedding his weak leather armor to become a real brawler at level 3 sounds pretty cool. As for Force of Personality, I'm confused by the progression of the unarmed strikes and where these levels came from. To me, it seems like it would be easier to bump the damage to a d6 at 6th and a d8 at 14th to keep with the subclass features, and the progression would still stay behind monk. I'm just not sure what those specific levels mean, and it would give the player something to keep track of in their subclass at levels they're not supposed to be getting things from their subclass. The bardic inspiration psychic damage is interesting, and really adds to the semi-mysticism of using your personality and body together in synergy. Extra attack is appropriate, and Inspired Blow is a nice capstone that allows for some serious multitasking in being a bard and laying the smackdown. All in all, the subclass is simple, yet effective. The mechanics seem reasonably balanced, and my only complaint (which is obviously pretty minor) is about the progression of unarmed strikes, which I could be persuaded to accept with a little reasoning.

Frisk is interesting. I suppose much of the usefulness of the feature is determined by the DM, but since it's obviously a fairly fluff-based feature - besides the disadvantage on Perception - that's alright. It does set up the subclass nicely for thievery, though, which is good. There's a huge bonus to Sleight of Hand at 3rd level, but since there's not a lot of combat focus, that seems fine to me. It gives the mechanics for a rogue that would rather steal than fight. I can't remember the specific rules on disarming somebody, but it seems fine given that you have to forgo holding anything else useful. "Borrow" Weapon is cool. I'm hesitant with all of this weapon-taking, and I would imagine an unprepared/inexperienced DM could get frustrated quickly, although it doesn't seem inherently overpowered. Hijack Attunement is very flavorful and not too much, characteristic of a 13th level rogue feature. Steal Life is even more flavorful, and I really like it, but it seems a little much to have at will. Since the large majority of damage rogues are dealing at this level comes from sneak attack, having to use an unarmed strike isnít a huge handicap on it, giving the rogue a massive amount of survivability, especially since the feature doesnít require hitting a humanoid (allowing for punching something like a rabbit and gaining back a large chunk of hp) or even an animate being (allowing for, in the loosest possible interpretation, punching something like a tree to gain a large chunk of hp). I might reduce its usage to once or twice if kept as is., and possibly restrict the amount of hit points you can gain from a target, such as a maximum amount equal to the maximum hit points of the target, where it retains its usefulness in combat but canít be outright abused.

Haha, I always love a good breaking of the fourth wall. Expanding the mind into a limb seems vague and conceptual in the fluff, but it becomes pretty clear once you start reading the features. I like the general theme of summoning and moving things in the spells, and I think it sets up the rest of the subclass nicely. Spectral hand sounds like fun and allows for some antics without being gamebreaking in any big way. As for flying fist, boy does this create a cool image. In my mind Iím imagining a spectral, almost cartoonish hand walking on its middle and index fingers like a person and then flicking people, and Iím also seeing the thumb people from spy kids. I donít have mage handís limitations on me at the moment, but I would be wary of people attempting to fly by having their spectral hand carry them, which would obviously be potent for a cantrip. Bigbyís hand is appropriate, I can see where you get the other 10th level stuff from. For 14th level, things look fine, but does the three-quarters cover from Interposing Hand last for the duration of the casting of mage hand? The first and third bullets have a time on them, but that one does not. Overall, I think the idea is intriguing while still being open to interpretation, and the mechanics are well-balanced. The theme feels a tad loose in areas, but this could probably be fixed with even a few extra sentences of fluff to tie it all together in a nice bow.

I hope my reviews have been helpful, every single subclass was a pleasure to read and think about, and I look forward to seeing the future submissions. Now, shortly, Iíll be posting my first version of the Gauntleteer. It is, of course, open to any and all feedback and criticism; I donít do wizards very often. My main concern is that it may deal too much damage. I wanted an upgrade over fire bolt, but I don't want it to be too good or lead to a worse problem than eldritch blast poses.

Unavenger
2019-01-18, 05:59 PM
I, uh... I'm not sure how to go about reviewing this; it's not really my area of knowledge.
Yeah, it's harder than it looks to make these. You'd think it's just assigning class features from monk to each class, but no, you also have to trawl the spell list and also the different subclass levels don't play nice-nice with the different features. Monk, of course, is even worse because it has abilities stuck together with no rhyme or reason, an artefact of the old 3.5 monk or possibly before.


I like the spells you added in an attempt to achieve a monk flavor of spellcasting,

Yeah, this one is a lot easier than some of the others might be.


and, of course, you've hit the theme dead on.
This is a relief, because looking back at the earlier pages of the chat thread, all the commentary on the previous VMCs was "But rogues and their tools don't fit with a theme of technology! Warlocks and their otherworldly patrons don't fit with an otherworldly theme! BARDS DON'T FIT WITH A SUPPORT THEME!"


Using the d3 as a martial arts die seems like a negligible and difficult differentiation from a d4. If I were to have a player use this, I would probably bump it up to a d4 for the sake of ease and have the damage increase at 11th level.
That's fair. I usually try to make the features worse than the class that grants them, but actually martial arts is probably not amazingly strong on its own, well maybe? But then at first level, cleric VMC monk would be basically entirely strictly better than monk - and nearly the same for warlock VMC monk.

I think I'll keep it as d3 for balance reasons at low levels.


As far as I can tell, this is good work. (I think?) Either way, you have my respect for tackling such a task.

Thanks! Like I said, it's not as easy as you might think.



Any more critique for VMC monk? I could use it...

theVoidWatches
2019-01-18, 08:05 PM
As for Force of Personality, I'm confused by the progression of the unarmed strikes and where these levels came from. To me, it seems like it would be easier to bump the damage to a d6 at 6th and a d8 at 14th to keep with the subclass features, and the progression would still stay behind monk. I'm just not sure what those specific levels mean, and it would give the player something to keep track of in their subclass at levels they're not supposed to be getting things from their subclass.

Monks upgrade their MA die at 5th level, but then after that it's every 6 levels (11 and 17). Level 9 and 15 keeps that 6-level progression speed. It also makes the curve of your attacks much more regular than it would be if it upgraded at 6 and 14 - that would give you 3 levels of 1d4, 8 of 1d6, and 7 of 1d8, whereas this progression gives you 6 levels of each.

And yeah, it's weird that it's at levels you're not getting any subclass features, but bard subclass stuff is split up kind of wierdly.

Icecaster
2019-01-18, 10:56 PM
Monks upgrade their MA die at 5th level, but then after that it's every 6 levels (11 and 17). Level 9 and 15 keeps that 6-level progression speed. It also makes the curve of your attacks much more regular than it would be if it upgraded at 6 and 14 - that would give you 3 levels of 1d4, 8 of 1d6, and 7 of 1d8, whereas this progression gives you 6 levels of each.

And yeah, it's weird that it's at levels you're not getting any subclass features, but bard subclass stuff is split up kind of wierdly.

Fair enough, as long as it gets the job done, and now that I see the pattern I can respect the progression. I just couldn't figure out what on earth the correlation was at first, heh

Ivellius
2019-01-18, 10:57 PM
A couple of review comments. Spell suggestions for the Oath of the Sacred Fist (as per my custom, I've restricted myself to PHB spells):


1st - Absorb Elements, Burning Hands, Expeditious Retreat, Feather Fall, Jump, Longstrider, and Sanctuary all feel like better options to me than what you have. Bless is okay if you really like it.
2nd - I think I like Calm Emotions and Spider Climb as options here over Enlarge/Reduce, but what you have isn't bad. Enhance Ability and Misty Step might also be all right.
3rd - Blink, Gaseous Form, Haste, Tongues, and Water Walk all feel "monk-like" to me.
4th - I think Fire Shield over Death Ward would be pretty good, but your selections are solid.
5th - I'd put Bigby's Hand or Flame Strike ahead of Dispel Evil and Good. Hold Monster is nice.


Some overlap with the VMC: Monk suggestions, I think? I didn't look at those very closely.

And for Icecaster's Gauntleteer, because you reviewed everyone else's to this point:

I'd change the name to Telemancy, honestly, though maybe leave "gauntleteer" in the fluff as a nickname.

I think you can cut the wording on Novice Telemancy and also fold Extended Strike into this feature.

Strengthened Telemancy--I'd shift the wording a bit, probably the second sentence to this: "You make an Intelligence (Athletics) check for the attempt and are considered proficient with checks made by this feature."

Sweeping Strikes seems decent enough to me.

Hand of Power works, I guess, but it feels a little sad to duplicate something the base wizard can already kind of do. There are a few riders attached that make it better, sure, but it still doesn't feel all that impressive.

Extended Strike should probably be down to a 1d6ish, because of the force damage, lack of disadvantage in melee, and automatic addition of spellcasting modifier. It's real strong as-is.

Overall, it has a clear, cohesive theme and makes sense as an addition to the game. I think I'd like to see a bit "more" in terms of its versatility, though I honestly couldn't tell you what that should look like. I think the power budget on the features is about where it should be, and it has more utility than at first glance with its extras on mage hand.

Honestly, though, the submissions look pretty good this time around. (Much better than I was expecting, if I'm being honest.)

Icecaster
2019-01-19, 10:16 AM
And for Icecaster's Gauntleteer, because you reviewed everyone else's to this point:

I'd change the name to Telemancy, honestly, though maybe leave "gauntleteer" in the fluff as a nickname.

That's a good idea. My original idea was labeled gauntleteer in my mind, so I just left it once I named it. School of Telemancy is more appropriate for how things shook out.


I think you can cut the wording on Novice Telemancy and also fold Extended Strike into this feature.

The wording could be improved, I agree. I'll use the same wording Improved Minor Illusion uses, but I'll replace learning minor illusion with extended strike and mage hand, then add in mage hand control as a bonus action.


Strengthened Telemancy--I'd shift the wording a bit, probably the second sentence to this: "You make an Intelligence (Athletics) check for the attempt and are considered proficient with checks made by this feature."


And that is what my mind was grasping for but couldn't for the life of it think of.


Hand of Power works, I guess, but it feels a little sad to duplicate something the base wizard can already kind of do. There are a few riders attached that make it better, sure, but it still doesn't feel all that impressive.


Yeah, this was basically what I settled on out of several mediocre ideas, second place being a once-per-rest mega punch as an action. I'll probably change it, but I wanted to get my submission in promptly since I was excited about things.

EDIT: (again) I've replaced it now with Spacial Mastery, allowing a teleport of 10 feet before each attack in extended strike.


Extended Strike should probably be down to a 1d6ish, because of the force damage, lack of disadvantage in melee, and automatic addition of spellcasting modifier. It's real strong as-is.

That's fair. The cantrip was originally designed to be the centerpiece of the subclass, being exclusive to only that, but I'll tone it back now that there are other themes at play.

EDIT: Oh boy, I really should've run the math on that when I made it :smalleek:


Overall, it has a clear, cohesive theme and makes sense as an addition to the game. I think I'd like to see a bit "more" in terms of its versatility, though I honestly couldn't tell you what that should look like. I think the power budget on the features is about where it should be, and it has more utility than at first glance with its extras on mage hand.

Thank you for the review!

The Cats
2019-01-19, 10:40 AM
Strengthened Telemancy--I'd shift the wording a bit, probably the second sentence to this: "You make an Intelligence (Athletics) check for the attempt and are considered proficient with checks made by this feature."

Since variant skill checks are an optional rule, could also just say "Make an intelligence check that you are proficient in" to keep it solid with tables that don't use that rule. I mean, the variant rule is in the PHB so not hard to look up, but Intelligence (Athletics) could get some blank stares from people who aren't aware of it.

edit: changed the suggested wording like, five times.


Honestly, though, the submissions look pretty good this time around. (Much better than I was expecting, if I'm being honest.)

Well that's because we're all incredibly talented, intelligent, creative, and attractive individuals. Especially those cats. Such shiny fur. Must take fish oil supplements.

SleeplessWriter
2019-01-21, 11:37 PM
I agree that all the submissions this time are really good. Part of it is probably 'cause we've been thinking about the theme since its introduction. I know I've certainly had the ideas for all but the 17th level ability on the Bar Brawler rolling around in my head since then.

I love the mechanics and theming of the Oath of the Sacred Fist, and there's just something goofy about the whole Way of the Ghost Punch that I like.
Also, I'm noticing a bit of an odd trend going on here. Three bard colleges? Three? Huh. They all look like they're turning out pretty well so far too. The College of Fraternity in particular could do some nasty things with a three level dip in sorcerer for a twinned, high fived Dragon's Breath or something similar.


Anyways, it's all looking pretty good, guys, keep it up.

MoleMage
2019-01-23, 04:25 PM
Can't believe I forgot about Feather Fall and Jump. I adjusted many of the oath spells for Sacred Fist (keeping Protection from Energy as the now sole mystic defense spell). I also fixed Divine Grasp to allow smiting on any grapple instead of just the bonus grapple (this rewards Sacred Fists for spending more of their attacks restraining foes without being a damage boost since they must give up unarmed damage to use it).

Ivellius
2019-01-23, 08:26 PM
Can't believe I forgot about Feather Fall and Jump. I adjusted many of the oath spells for Sacred Fist (keeping Protection from Energy as the now sole mystic defense spell). I also fixed Divine Grasp to allow smiting on any grapple instead of just the bonus grapple (this rewards Sacred Fists for spending more of their attacks restraining foes without being a damage boost since they must give up unarmed damage to use it).

While you're paying attention, let me say that I think my favorite part of your submission is the tenets. It's sometimes difficult for me to come up with those to justify different oaths, but I think you did an admirable job distinguishing it from the existing ones.

(I do like the update of an old prestige class, too.)

theVoidWatches
2019-01-23, 09:32 PM
Just did a quick edit to the College of the Fist to make it clear than you still get your Strength modifier to damage with your unarmed strikes, and that it only ranks up with your bard levels, not when you hit level 9 and 15 generally.

Having thought on potential monk-multiclass issues a little, I've decided it's not a huge problem. Sure, a single level of monk can let you go down to 2 stats to worry about instead of 3 (CoF leaves you with Strength for your unarmed strikes, but you want Charisma for spells and AC and Dex for AC still - taking 1 level of Monk lets you used Dex to attack and forget about Strength), but you still need to be MAD enough to do that multiclass in the first place (even if it's easier to have a 13 Wis than a decent Strength for attacking). From the other direction, 3 levels of Bard can let you add 1d6 psychic damage to strikes a couple times a day (or a couple times a short rest if you go all the way to 5), but Monks don't multiclass too well and are better off going deeper into Monk for more Ki.

MoleMage
2019-02-08, 11:38 AM
Wow, time really got away from me there. Sorry I didn't give feedback sooner, but here are some brief comments.

Monk: Way of the Ghost Punch I honestly didn't expect to see a monk in this contest since they already involve hands, but I should have been prepared for the more hands monk. All in all I like the direction you took here and all the abilities look pretty good, though more ki-cost intensive than anything other than probably four elements (which is fine because unlike four elements, everything is individually inexpensive).

Bard: College of the Luchador Beautiful. Just...beautiful. It would be nice to see some way to deal damage during a grapple before level 14, but with expertise on grapple at level 3 that might be too strong.

VMC Monk: This is well put together, and I feel like it fits the theme better than previous VMC (though Bard was pretty close). I don't agree with the decision to use a 1d3 for unarmed strike, mostly because 5e tends to use only the "standard" dice (d4, d6, d8, d10, d12, d20, d%). I actually can't think of anything else in 5e that uses a d3, though I'm sure there's a table or monster somewhere proving me wrong.

Bardic College of the Fist I think the class is balanced, though it is a little bland compared to the expanded bard options. This fits right in with Lore and Valor though, leaving the main focus for the bard on their spells.

Rogue: Pilferer I like it in theory, but Disarm isn't a general action, so you might want to add rules for disarming someone explicitly onto this subclass. Likewise, Hijack Attunement is a little too generally defined (maybe tie it to stick fingers?).

Master Hand Patron: Another one I honestly didn't expect. All of the abilities look good. Flying Fist should probably specify what sort of attack you make (I am assuming Charisma).

School of Telemancy: I like what you've done here, but I feel like you drifted away from the theme as you wrote it. I'd've liked to have seen more gauntlet-themed features.

Rogue: Bar Brawler: Oooh, cheese wheel. Overall a good class and I appreciate the inclusion of character quotes. Your formatting does leave it unclear which abilities require ki points. It seems like it's just the level 3 abilities (Escape the Chaos, Provoke the Patrons, Take a Swipe at 'em), but it could be read as all of them. Maybe put the ki costs in each ability description?

College of Fraternity Chug, chug, chug! I think it's pretty well done. Tool Proficiencies are generally valued lower than skill proficiencies (except thieves tools). I would limit this to "another set of artisan's tools" instead. I'd also like an expanded use of Bardic Inspiration at level 3 (every other bard class gets something to do with BI at level 3).

Vogie
2019-02-08, 01:48 PM
As for flying fist, boy does this create a cool image. In my mind Iím imagining a spectral, almost cartoonish hand walking on its middle and index fingers like a person and then flicking people, and Iím also seeing the thumb people from spy kids. I donít have mage handís limitations on me at the moment, but I would be wary of people attempting to fly by having their spectral hand carry them, which would obviously be potent for a cantrip. Bigbyís hand is appropriate, I can see where you get the other 10th level stuff from. For 14th level, things look fine, but does the three-quarters cover from Interposing Hand last for the duration of the casting of mage hand? The first and third bullets have a time on them, but that one does not. Overall, I think the idea is intriguing while still being open to interpretation, and the mechanics are well-balanced. The theme feels a tad loose in areas, but this could probably be fixed with even a few extra sentences of fluff to tie it all together in a nice bow

You can't fly with it, as it still is capped at carrying things 10lbs or lower. I've made it a bit more specific, and I think pushing the size increase to the 14th level will help with that.

That being said, those people who watch the first Critical Role campaign will likely want to also perform the Scalan's flying gnome trick, but you can always remind them that can only be done with Bigby's Hand... just like in CR.

The Interposing hand feature would continue to provide cover for the duration, but only from a single target. I've updating that wording so it's more straightforward so it's not a flat +2/+5 AC from everything.

Added some fluff as well.



Master Hand Patron: Another one I honestly didn't expect. All of the abilities look good. Flying Fist should probably specify what sort of attack you make (I am assuming Charisma).


That's a good point. Fixed. I also noted on both it and the pact boon, as well as added proficiency information.

Unavenger
2019-02-08, 03:07 PM
VMC Monk: This is well put together, and I feel like it fits the theme better than previous VMC (though Bard was pretty close). I don't agree with the decision to use a 1d3 for unarmed strike, mostly because 5e tends to use only the "standard" dice (d4, d6, d8, d10, d12, d20, d%). I actually can't think of anything else in 5e that uses a d3, though I'm sure there's a table or monster somewhere proving me wrong.

So, I've changed it so that it now just deals 1 damage when it would deal d3 before - my instinct is that this won't be much different, won't involve awkward dice, and stops VMC monk being stronger than just straight-up monk at first level while keeping the extra attack, which you either use to get an extra small hit in or for a second chance at sneak attack or whatever. It's a point of damage, so not much difference I'd think.

Ivellius
2019-02-09, 01:37 AM
I never came up with anything better, so I submitted what I did. I'm not completely happy with it (too punchy), but I wanted it to be really distinct from the Amonkhet Strength Domain and felt I needed to move in the direction of the contest's theme.

sengmeng
2019-02-09, 03:49 PM
Pilferer adjusted:

Frisk unchanged.

Sticky fingers includes a spoilered copy of the guidance from the DMG on how to resolve disarm attempts, and a caveat that however it's decided, you gain advantage if there is a d20 roll.

"Borrow" Weapon unchanged.

Hijack Attunement stipulates that the magic item must be in your hands, attuned to someone else, and that it breaks the other person's attunement.

Steal Life now only activates when an opponent is dropped to 0 hitpoints and is limited to the number of hitpoints they had prior to the attack, but can heal you above your max, giving you temporary hitpoints.

SleeplessWriter
2019-02-09, 03:53 PM
Hm. I like the domain so far, but Holy Brawler is a little overpowered as is. Aside from being able to add your wisdom modifier four times by only dipping a single level of the domain with a fifth level monk, it also is a pretty hefty boost to a first level character. Variant Human + Point Buy + Tavern Brawler is a potent first level character. 16 strength and wisdom gives a 1d4+6 punch and a bonus action grapple with a +8 from being proficient in athletics (the skill you pick up from being a variant human). You'll be making the barbarian look bad for the first few levels at least. I'd probably put a cap on how many times you can use it, maybe just once a turn to stop monk multiclass shenanigans at the least. Otherwise, I really like the subclass, bravo.

And as for the ki costs of the Bar Brawlers abilities, yeah, it was just supposed to be the level three abilities and the level 13 knockout ability, which is basically the monks stunning strike with a few more restrictions and a little more oomph to it on a crit. I'll make that more clear.
I made the improvised weapon break on the crits to make the choice of whether or not to use it a little tougher, while also encouraging the use of Take a Swipe at 'em to pick up replacement weapons. Should I extend the improvised weapon breaking to every time the ability is used instead of just crits, or should I drop the boost on crits altogether?

Ivellius
2019-02-09, 10:11 PM
Hm. I like the domain so far, but Holy Brawler is a little overpowered as is. Aside from being able to add your wisdom modifier four times by only dipping a single level of the domain with a fifth level monk, it also is a pretty hefty boost to a first level character. Variant Human + Point Buy + Tavern Brawler is a potent first level character. 16 strength and wisdom gives a 1d4+6 punch and a bonus action grapple with a +8 from being proficient in athletics (the skill you pick up from being a variant human). You'll be making the barbarian look bad for the first few levels at least. I'd probably put a cap on how many times you can use it, maybe just once a turn to stop monk multiclass shenanigans at the least. Otherwise, I really like the subclass, bravo.

Hm...the basic intention is to keep it on a curve with a weapon, and doing it in such a way that was a bit different from other options (like just upping the damage dice). I don't really consider optional rules in my creations, no matter how common they are (so none of multiclassing / variant human / feats), but in this case those are common enough that it's probably worth redoing. I'll ponder overnight. Thanks for the feedback.

nickl_2000
2019-02-11, 08:28 AM
Hey, voting starts today, doesn't it. This is going to be a hard one, there are a lot of really good choices out there.

Ivellius
2019-02-11, 09:14 AM
Probably!

I did tweak the Strength Domain a bit, though I think rearranging the features might've been a good idea. Mainly I'm just a little sad that Amonkhet already did one, even if it's not that good, so I needed to find different features at a spot or two.

Vogie
2019-02-11, 10:37 AM
Probably!

I did tweak the Strength Domain a bit, though I think rearranging the features might've been a good idea. Mainly I'm just a little sad that Amonkhet already did one, even if it's not that good, so I needed to find different features at a spot or two.

Did you mean to not make the unarmed attack a die roll? If I'm reading it correctly, each unarmed strike is STR + prof to attack, and deals WIS+STR damage

MoleMage
2019-02-11, 02:52 PM
Too late! Voting thread is up now, cease edits.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?580730-D-amp-D-Subclass-Contest-VI-Voting-Thread&p=23700219#post23700219

Two weeks, go vote!

Vogie
2019-02-11, 02:56 PM
Too late! Voting thread is up now, cease edits.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?580730-D-amp-D-Subclass-Contest-VI-Voting-Thread&p=23700219#post23700219

Two weeks, go vote!

Aw, you guys!!!! I didn't know I had a nickname!!! You all are the best.

"Evil the Cat" definitely sounds like a nickname my son would've made up for me, though.

MoleMage
2019-02-11, 02:58 PM
Aw, you guys!!!! I didn't know I had a nickname!!! You all are the best.

"Evil the Cat" definitely sounds like a nickname my son would've made up for me, though.

There's always one artifact of my table copy-pasting. Always one.

Ivellius
2019-02-11, 09:56 PM
Did you mean to not make the unarmed attack a die roll? If I'm reading it correctly, each unarmed strike is STR + prof to attack, and deals WIS+STR damage

I did. I'm not sure one point of damage is a die roll anyway, but this way you're overwriting Martial Arts even if you choose to use it.

The hardest thing about voting this round is I have to remind myself which Bard college was which.

SleeplessWriter
2019-02-13, 02:50 PM
Guys, I just realized this, but the way I worded Knockout means it'll work with ranged improvised weapons. Which means you could probably knock a dragon out of the air with a spoon... I love it.

It probably isn't too much of a problem, though, since it is a 13th level ability and not 5th like the monk's stunning strike, but it's just something I hadn't thought about when I made the ability.

MoleMage
2019-02-20, 05:35 PM
Only a few days left to vote on the current contest!

MoleMage
2019-02-25, 04:59 PM
Alright everyone, our voting period has ended and it is time to tally the results!

In 3rd place, with 7 voting points, we have SleeplessWriter's Bar Brawler Rogue. For when you really need to hit someone with, then run off with, a table.

In 2nd place, with 8 voting points, we have Vogie's Master Hand Patron. For when your eldritch master is a giant floating hand with a propensity for playing with Nintendo figurines, and they taught you to do the same.

In 1st place, also with 8 voting points, we have nickl_2000's Bardic College of the Luchador! Wear a mask and wrestle some baddies in style, all while talking the best trash ever seen in DnD, because you're a bard!

The tie for 1st place was broken because Vogie did not submit a vote before the tallying of results. If he had, the next tiebreaker is number of 1st place votes. There is no third tiebreaker, the tie would have just stood in that case.

In the voting for theme, we have a clear winner in Well, That's Fortunate and for the third consecutive contest we have a tie for runner up. Subsystems Online will pass automatically into the next voting pool yet again, while Keep it Simple, Stupid was upstaged by It Is Written for the runner-up and so look for Subsystems Online and It Is Written in the next contest's voting pool!

Thanks everyone for playing, and the new thread should be up shortly!

Voting has concluded. The next contest can be found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?581983-D-amp-D-Subclass-Contest-VII-Well-That-s-Fortunate&p=23733775#post23733775). Good luck!

Ivellius
2019-02-25, 10:04 PM
I...kind of want to do a leprechaun patron now.

Hm, I had a bunch of DM's Guild stuff on this theme already, so nothing else immediately comes to mind. I must ponder...

MoleMage
2019-02-25, 10:09 PM
I...kind of want to do a leprechaun patron now.

Hm, I had a bunch of DM's Guild stuff on this theme already, so nothing else immediately comes to mind. I must ponder...

I've made it my habit to try to make at least one of the suggested themes somewhat esoteric. I actually made Oath of the Sacred fist because I came up with the idea of punchadin when setting up the last contest.

theVoidWatches
2019-02-25, 10:27 PM
Just posted a quick first pass (with very little flavor as of yet) of a luck-based rogue. The idea is basically that their roguish talents (sneak attack, expertise, etc) are coming not from their skill, but from unnatural levels of luck. They can spread that luck around a little bit too - granting Luck Points to their friends (and later to themselves), and while they're doing so their sneak attack damage is reduced.

So, they get this not-quite-Bardic-Inspiration, they get Jack of All Trades by another name, and they get to speak all languages as the 13th-level mostly-a-ribbon feature (but, for flavor reasons, they're just bungling through with luck and miming, so it takes them twice as long as usual to speak).

Beginning at 9th level they can (if they have a bonus action available every turn) give themselves a +5 bonus to their one attack every round - but, of course, that also means their sneak attack bonus is down by 5d6 (which is ALL of their sneak attack, at that level). Plus, using Luck Points doesn't let you use Sneak Attack if you couldn't already.

Honestly I feel like this is a little underpowered, but I didn't want to just crib Bardic Inspiration completely, for this. Ah well, it's a first draft and took maybe half an hour to conception to posting. Might rewrite it entirely later.



Also, congratulations to nickl! But, um, ouch, not a single vote for my College of the Fist. It was mechanically boring, I admit, but still, was it really that bad?

Unavenger
2019-02-26, 05:30 AM
Lucky number 7 - seems appropriate!

I admit to having no idea what, if anything, I'll do for this one. But, we'll see...

nickl_2000
2019-02-26, 07:40 AM
Thanks for the votes all and placing me in first :smallcool:. I was really hoping that the College of the Luchador would land well with others as it was a fun one to write.

There is the first (second maybe) draft of the Barbarian Path of Dumb Luck http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23735713&postcount=3 Feel free to throw anything my way that seems off. Although, it will have a few more revisions before I'm actually happy, and need a bunch of flavour.

Ivellius
2019-02-26, 02:03 PM
Thanks for the votes all and placing me in first :smallcool:. I was really hoping that the College of the Luchador would land well with others as it was a fun one to write.

There is the first (second maybe) draft of the Barbarian Path of Dumb Luck http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23735713&postcount=3 Feel free to throw anything my way that seems off. Although, it will have a few more revisions before I'm actually happy, and need a bunch of flavour.

Impact Calibration's upgrade needs to be named Percussive Maintenance, if you ask me.

nickl_2000
2019-02-26, 02:13 PM
Impact Calibration's upgrade needs to be named Percussive Maintenance, if you ask me.

Genius. All fixed! :)

SleeplessWriter
2019-02-26, 04:21 PM
Gonna throw my hat into the ring with another luck based rogue, except this one is more focused on stealing luck for themselves instead of granting it to allies. Probably going to theme it as if they're stealing strands of thread from the loom of fate. Essentially dealing out a debuff with their sneak attack that fuels their self buffing and other abilities.

nickl_2000
2019-02-27, 08:08 AM
Just posted a quick first pass (with very little flavor as of yet) of a luck-based rogue. The idea is basically that their roguish talents (sneak attack, expertise, etc) are coming not from their skill, but from unnatural levels of luck. They can spread that luck around a little bit too - granting Luck Points to their friends (and later to themselves), and while they're doing so their sneak attack damage is reduced.

So, they get this not-quite-Bardic-Inspiration, they get Jack of All Trades by another name, and they get to speak all languages as the 13th-level mostly-a-ribbon feature (but, for flavor reasons, they're just bungling through with luck and miming, so it takes them twice as long as usual to speak).

Beginning at 9th level they can (if they have a bonus action available every turn) give themselves a +5 bonus to their one attack every round - but, of course, that also means their sneak attack bonus is down by 5d6 (which is ALL of their sneak attack, at that level). Plus, using Luck Points doesn't let you use Sneak Attack if you couldn't already.

Honestly I feel like this is a little underpowered, but I didn't want to just crib Bardic Inspiration completely, for this. Ah well, it's a first draft and took maybe half an hour to conception to posting. Might rewrite it entirely later.



Also, congratulations to nickl! But, um, ouch, not a single vote for my College of the Fist. It was mechanically boring, I admit, but still, was it really that bad?

First of all, thanks. :smallcool:

I checked out your new subclass, I hope you wanted comments. If not please feel free to ignore.

Luck Points - This definitely needs to have
you may grant a number of Luck Points less than or equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum 1)
on there. Since charisma is sometimes a dump stat for rogues, you would need at least that. Also, at what point are you allowed to spend them? Before you roll, after but before you know the results?

Luck in all Trades - For some reason I feel like this should be something like I'd rather be lucky than good and instead of give half-proficiency have it give a bonus die whenever you roll something you aren't proficient (that grows as you level). That way there is still a chance aspect in how much you get. But that is just a feeling for me.

Fool's Luck - I'm not sure why you wouldn't spend your bonus action almost every turn here to give yourself charisma mod luck points (say 3), then give yourself +6 to hit on your attack and not lose out on any damage. They would be pretty brutal to bounded accuracy.

theVoidWatches
2019-02-27, 10:31 AM
No no, I always want feedback!


Luck Points - This definitely needs to have
you may grant a number of Luck Points less than or equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum 1)
on there. Since charisma is sometimes a dump stat for rogues, you would need at least that. Also, at what point are you allowed to spend them? Before you roll, after but before you know the results?

Good catch, fixed up.


Luck in all Trades - For some reason I feel like this should be something like I'd rather be lucky than good and instead of give half-proficiency have it give a bonus die whenever you roll something you aren't proficient (that grows as you level). That way there is still a chance aspect in how much you get. But that is just a feeling for me.

You're right, that is much more thematic. I'll start it at a d4 and let it upgrade to a d6 and then d8, every ~7 levels.


Fool's Luck - I'm not sure why you wouldn't spend your bonus action almost every turn here to give yourself charisma mod luck points (say 3), then give yourself +6 to hit on your attack and not lose out on any damage. They would be pretty brutal to bounded accuracy.

I think you may be misunderstanding. It's not a +1 for every individual Luck Point you spend, it's a +1 each time you spend them in general - and you can't spend them in bits and pieces. So if you spend 3 Luck Points each time, you're getting a +4 each time, not a +6. Similarly, the +1d6 damage is after the reduction for Luck Points being spent, so in this 3 Luck Points a turn scenario, you're still dropping your Sneak Attack damage by 2d6.
So, what this actually does is you can spend your bonus action every turn to give yourself 1 Luck Point and then spend your reaction to get a +2 to attack if you need it, without sacrificing any Sneak Attack damage (if you haven't given any Luck to your friends, that is).

Which, written out like that, seems kind of weak in comparison's to the Assassin's "I'm gonna deal quadruple damage this time" and the thief's "I'm gonna steal the fighter's Action Surge for this first round". Spending your Bonus Action and reaction for a measly +2? I might change the damage thing to "You gain +1 damage to your weapon attacks for each Luck Point you are currently granting" instead, and maybe let the additional +1 apply to anyone who spends the Luck Points you're giving them.

Icecaster
2019-02-28, 10:42 AM
I had to take a break from the forums for a while, so sorry I didn't participate anymore in the last contest :smallsigh:

I saw the theme yesterday, though, and I was struck with a bit of inspiration. I hope my vision came through in the Paladin: Oath of Fortune. There's obviously some references to The Gambler in it :smallwink: I considered a gambler bard, but decided I liked the tenets being lyrics better. I also considered a wizard who used transmutation to make lucky charms, but couldn't think of enough good features for it.

I'd also like to review things again soon, once there are some more submissions up.

nickl_2000
2019-02-28, 11:47 AM
I had to take a break from the forums for a while, so sorry I didn't participate anymore in the last contest :smallsigh:

I saw the theme yesterday, though, and I was struck with a bit of inspiration. I hope my vision came through in the Paladin: Oath of Fortune. There's obviously some references to The Gambler in it :smallwink: I considered a gambler bard, but decided I liked the tenets being lyrics better. I also considered a wizard who used transmutation to make lucky charms, but couldn't think of enough good features for it.

I'd also like to review things again soon, once there are some more submissions up.

Looks cool, I will try and give feedback tomorrow sometime. The first thing I was thinking about for this was a two-face type Paladin character, with the oath of chance. I just couldn't figure out how to make it work.

Man_Over_Game
2019-02-28, 06:51 PM
Looks cool, I will try and give feedback tomorrow sometime. The first thing I was thinking about for this was a two-face type Paladin character, with the oath of chance. I just couldn't figure out how to make it work.

I'd tie it in with the Channel Divinities. Since you can only use one by default anyway, it's basically a 50/50 chance as to which one you may need. Then just tie in some kind of long-term benefit that is associated with that "face"

Some ideas:

Life: As a Bonus Action, you emit an aura of holy pacification. To you and creatures adjacent to you, damage dealt and received is halved. This benefit lasts 1 minute.
vs.
Death: As a Bonus Action, you emit an aura of inevitable mortality. For the next minute, you and creatures within 15 feet reroll all damage they receive, keeping the higher of the two rolls.

Level 7: When a creature within 10 feet of you dies, or is hit by a Critical Hit, you gain Temporary Hitpoints equal to half of your Paladin level and regain the use of your Channel Divinity.
At 18th level, this extends to 30 feet.

And then just tack on some high level stuff that makes sense.

nickl_2000
2019-03-01, 07:49 AM
I'd tie it in with the Channel Divinities. Since you can only use one by default anyway, it's basically a 50/50 chance as to which one you may need. Then just tie in some kind of long-term benefit that is associated with that "face"

Some ideas:

Life: As a Bonus Action, you emit an aura of holy pacification. To you and creatures adjacent to you, damage dealt and received is halved. This benefit lasts 1 minute.
vs.
Death: As a Bonus Action, you emit an aura of inevitable mortality. For the next minute, you and creatures within 15 feet reroll all damage they receive, keeping the higher of the two rolls.

Level 7: When a creature within 10 feet of you dies, or is hit by a Critical Hit, you gain Temporary Hitpoints equal to half of your Paladin level and regain the use of your Channel Divinity.
At 18th level, this extends to 30 feet.

And then just tack on some high level stuff that makes sense.

Interesting, I will have to mull it over and let it run around in my head for a future homebrew. I like the idea of a Paladin based on two face, he really is committed to his tenants (even when it is detrimental to himself). It really would fit into a chaotic neutral subclass.

nickl_2000
2019-03-01, 08:38 AM
Oath of Fortune Spells - I'm not sure on a few of the spells.
Shield - seems like it is to powerful and to easy to get it.
and there are a bunch of other ones that didn't seem to fit in to me. I know when I was starting the Oath of Luck I looked at these spells myself.
Oath of Luck Spells
3rd - Bane, Bless
5th - Aid, Mirror Image
9th - Bestow Curse, Remove Curse
13th - Compulsion, Death Ward
17th - Contagion, Mislead

Shield of Fortune. - Consider that the way this is written you can use this, shield of faith, and shield. So by level 3 you are looking at a possible AC of 24 (splint +shield+defensive fighting style+ shield of faith + divinity) and then you can use a shield spell to get to 29 if you need it. This is almost silly powerful even at higher levels
Lucky Break - I might actually adjust this to be a 1d10 or 1d12. It makes it more chancy, but I don't think it is broken as is.

Fortuneís Favored - This is pretty unusual for a Paladin. It's a common design pattern with the X's and PhB Paladins to give oath spells and channel divinity at level 3. I would drop this entirely personally.

Kismet - Okay, completely gut feeling here. However I'm worried that this would break the bounded accuracy model and you would never again fail a saving throw in your carrier. I would look at some other level 1 spells that would be fitting. Detect Poison and Disease, Expeditious Retreat, or do something else entirely. Maybe take the halfing luck skill?

Perfect Luck - Look to tone this down some. The crit point seems powerful but fine. The +3 to AC combined with your other skills and spells is a little much, and an automatic roll of 12 seems like a little much. Maybe if you change out the shield spell and shield of fortune you can just do the +3 to AC and increased crit chance.






Twist of Fate: There is a little awkwardness in the description of how you regain this ability. It took a few readings. The only problem I see with it is enemies having disadvantage when you are attacked. I know your AC will only be 15 (or 17 with a multiclass where you can get a shield), but it still feels off to me.

Predicted Spell - An interesting ability here. I feel like it should have a cost of a reaction to do it. That way you can only do it once per turn. That being said, is 2 SP enough to be able to force a failed save on a spell? My gut says it would be better as a reaction and costing 3 SP, but feel free to ignore my gut on this one.

Quantum Feedback - I'm confused on how this one works. When you use the reaction you target the person who hit you and do no damage to them with the spell? I think this one needs some clarity on how it works and what it does.

Chosen Outcome - Likely very powerful, but at level 18 it should be.






Expanded Spell List
Crusader's Mantle is a 3rd level spell, but put into the second level slot. Was that intentional?

Destinyís Curse - Not sure why you have the "you can use this feature after you see the roll....". From reading the rest of the ability it appears that you use a bonus action and then it automatically applies. If that is the case, that isn't needed at all. From an ability perspective I really like this. It's powerful and gives you an active thing to do. However, it will be very, very swingy (which is very fitting for the subclass).

Fortuneís Blessing - You can remove the "a willing creature part" I don't think any creature will ever be not willing to get hit less or get better saves. Although it is a little weirdly phrased in that is reduces the attack roll of someone against the person you used it on. I may actually have it add 1d8 to the AC so that the person you use it on is always the one that is effected.

Fateís Servant - Is this supposed to be Destiny's curse? You have "Whenever a creature affected by your Destinyís Blessing feature"

Doomís Verdict - I actually think this in underpowered for a capstone. You are giving advantage on all attack rolls against a creature for 1 round only. I would either increase the amount of uses to be based on charisma or make it last charisma mod rounds instead of one.





Phew, I think I am caught up :smallbiggrin:

Vogie
2019-03-01, 10:38 AM
I am NOT throwing away... my... shot!

The Longshot Ranger is up. With an interesting, variable expanded crit range, thrown build support, supernatural reflexes, and the ability to steal advantage from your foes, You can emulate any number of of incredibly lucky warriors.

superninja109
2019-03-01, 12:03 PM
Expanded Spell List
Crusader's Mantle is a 3rd level spell, but put into the second level slot. Was that intentional?

Destinyís Curse - Not sure why you have the "you can use this feature after you see the roll....". From reading the rest of the ability it appears that you use a bonus action and then it automatically applies. If that is the case, that isn't needed at all. From an ability perspective I really like this. It's powerful and gives you an active thing to do. However, it will be very, very swingy (which is very fitting for the subclass).

Fortuneís Blessing - You can remove the "a willing creature part" I don't think any creature will ever be not willing to get hit less or get better saves. Although it is a little weirdly phrased in that is reduces the attack roll of someone against the person you used it on. I may actually have it add 1d8 to the AC so that the person you use it on is always the one that is effected.

Fateís Servant - Is this supposed to be Destiny's curse? You have "Whenever a creature affected by your Destinyís Blessing feature"

Doomís Verdict - I actually think this in underpowered for a capstone. You are giving advantage on all attack rolls against a creature for 1 round only. I would either increase the amount of uses to be based on charisma or make it last charisma mod rounds instead of one.






Thanks for the feedback. I honestly did not notice that about Crusader's mantle. I'll probably replace it with enhance ability. Does that fit the subclass's identity enough, do you think?

Yes, it is supposed to be be Destiny's curse, I'll fix that along with the other typos and phrasing and such.

AC instead of attack rolls sounds like a good idea.

Would the capstone be more balanced if it also gave disadvantage to saves but stayed the same duration.

Man_Over_Game
2019-03-01, 12:26 PM
Twist of Fate: There is a little awkwardness in the description of how you regain this ability. It took a few readings. The only problem I see with it is enemies having disadvantage when you are attacked. I know your AC will only be 15 (or 17 with a multiclass where you can get a shield), but it still feels off to me.

Predicted Spell - An interesting ability here. I feel like it should have a cost of a reaction to do it. That way you can only do it once per turn. That being said, is 2 SP enough to be able to force a failed save on a spell? My gut says it would be better as a reaction and costing 3 SP, but feel free to ignore my gut on this one.

Quantum Feedback - I'm confused on how this one works. When you use the reaction you target the person who hit you and do no damage to them with the spell? I think this one needs some clarity on how it works and what it does.

Chosen Outcome - Likely very powerful, but at level 18 it should be.






Thanks for the look-over.

Twist of Fate:
ToF's armor effect is actually designed to work off of the Shield spell, and to also discourage/encourage certain multiclassing combinations.

It synergizing with Shield isn't overpowered as a multiclassing choice, due to the fact that Shield works best on characters who have lots of armor (and you can't with the ToF protection).

As a squishy caster, ToF's protection with Shield competes with Quantum Feedback in regards to the Reaction. As a result, you have to choose between taking the hit (and countering with an even worse attack), or being nigh-indestructible for the turn, but you can't get both.

It is a bit awkward for the recharge, maybe I'll just limit it to one clause (like if the Sorcerer witnesses a creature being attacked with a Critical Hit).

Predicted Spell:
Adding a Reaction to Predicted Spell would not only put a lot of strain for your Reaction in the class, but it also would be redundant and not solve anything. You could not Quicken to cast two leveled spells in the same turn, and you cannot combine Predicted Spell with Quantum Feedback. Unless you want to force a Cantrip to roll a 10 or you're casting Twinned Spell and Predicted Spell for a 5 or so Sorcery cost, there'd be no situation where you could cast Predicted Spell twice in the same round.

It is a guaranteed 10, but most creatures are going to be rolling a 10 on average anyway, so this is most effective against high powered creatures with low saving throws. In most other circumstances, it'd be a waste.

Quantum Feedback:
It does need to be cleaned up some more. I think I'll just change it to casting a spell as a Reaction when you're hit. This is effectively an alternate form of deterrence when your low AC becomes a problem but can't afford to constantly spam Shield.

Chosen Outcome:
I agree. Most of the level 18 Sorcerer capstones are pretty big, so I wanted to follow that pattern. Now the Sorcerer can perform as a pseudo, high-risk support.

superninja109
2019-03-03, 08:55 PM
To sengmeng's "Beloved of Dice" universal subclass:

This is very ambitious, and I like the idea, but it seems needlessly complex.

The core mechanic of luck dice seems really weird. Basically, whenever you roll the maximum amount on a die, you can store it and add it to a roll, but if it is a d20, you don't add it but instead gain advantage, but only on other d20 rolls. For a mechanic that seems to be central to this subclass, it could be improved with some simplification. The main source of unneeded complexity is the exception for d20s. Not sure about how this would impact balance, but maybe just say that every time you roll the max amount on a die, you get a point. You can spend this point later to gain advantage.
Then, maybe the specific classes could have alternative uses for points.

Also, through certain multiclassing, you could get 6 luck dice by level 3 if you have a single level in cleric, warlock, and sorcerer.

I'm interested to see what you'll do with the class-specific features. What might be a less time-consuming idea would be to make a list of abilities and assign them to classes in a table as one would if making variant multiclass subclass.

Kingsluger
2019-03-07, 07:25 PM
Just threw up a bit of a weird one in the Gambler patron. I'm hoping it swims instead of sinking but it was too interesting of an idea for the theme to pass up.



Thanks for the votes all and placing me in first :smallcool:. I was really hoping that the College of the Luchador would land well with others as it was a fun one to write.

There is the first (second maybe) draft of the Barbarian Path of Dumb Luck [Can't post links yet] Feel free to throw anything my way that seems off. Although, it will have a few more revisions before I'm actually happy, and need a bunch of flavour.

At first, I was off put by the idea of going into a rage to make a check with an artisans tool of all things but then I was overwhelmed with the idea of doing angry pottery. Always a fan of the guy bumbling through combat and beating the enemy through dumb luck.


I had to take a break from the forums for a while, so sorry I didn't participate anymore in the last contest :smallsigh:

I saw the theme yesterday, though, and I was struck with a bit of inspiration. I hope my vision came through in the Paladin: Oath of Fortune. There's obviously some references to The Gambler in it :smallwink: I considered a gambler bard, but decided I liked the tenets being lyrics better. I also considered a wizard who used transmutation to make lucky charms, but couldn't think of enough good features for it.

I'd also like to review things again soon, once there are some more submissions up.

My biggest criticism is the tenants not being: Know when to hold them, Know when to fold them, Know when to walk away and Know when to run. Shield of fortune seems like it could run into some problems with a sword and board paladin that knows the shield spell but honestly what doesn't? The same problem can be seen with the perfect luck capstone but that's also a capstone and at that point fun>balance.


I am NOT throwing away... my... shot!

The Longshot Ranger is up. With an interesting, variable expanded crit range, thrown build support, supernatural reflexes, and the ability to steal advantage from your foes, You can emulate any number of of incredibly lucky warriors.

I'm not too familiar with ranger archetypes and this might be a longshot (buh-dum tish) but it seems like the 7th level feature gives a lot to the character, specifically in the 2nd and 3rd benefit. That being said I'm always hype for game mechanics which bring in interesting stuff for randomization like, in this case, a coin. Gambit seems like a real ass-clencher of an ability when you're trying to get all you can from those flips before a boss fight but with each success, you feel more and more like you're about to fail.

SleeplessWriter
2019-03-08, 03:36 AM
Just Finished up the fatethief rogue, still working on flavor text. I'm kinda worried it might be a bit overpowered right now, let me know what you guys think and how it can be adjusted to fit into the powercurve a bit better.

I'll probably be back in a day or two with flavor text and comments. Looks good so far, guys.

nickl_2000
2019-03-08, 08:27 AM
At first, I was off put by the idea of going into a rage to make a check with an artisans tool of all things but then I was overwhelmed with the idea of doing angry pottery. Always a fan of the guy bumbling through combat and beating the enemy through dumb luck.



Actually my favorite thought on this as I was writing it was raging your way through glassblowing. I mean sure, painting, cooking, brewing, alchemy, smith's tool all make a little sense. The whole point is that someone is sitting there watching and going "how in the world did that just work?"

nickl_2000
2019-03-08, 08:55 AM
Move thoughts reviews and comments. I got knocked down pretty hard with an illness, so if I missed yours and you want comments please feel free to PM. It's not intentional




First thing I really like about this is the start of it being giving others bad luck. Most of what I have seen is getting good luck yourself or giving it to allies. I like the cursebringer aspect of this.

Cursed Fate - This feels extremely powerful to me. It effectively gives you the ability to force a better version of disadvantage nearly at will. Not only that though, it is better than disadvantage because it could also apply while someone has disadvantage. This definitely needs to be limited to 1 person cursed at once, you need a reaction to force it to happen, and I think you should only be able to do it X times per rest. Even at that it still may be overpowered. Another way to limit it more is to make it an action to curse someone, then you have to sacrifice almost an entire round to do it.

Stolen Luck - This seems fine, especially since it is limited. Although it does make the rogue even more of a skill monkey.

Cut the Thread - The wording here is a little confusing. Do they take damage based on the number of die spend or damage based on the rolls from the die spent?

Twisted Choices - I'm glad this is a reaction. This could be overpowered, but I think it will be okay based on the fact that you don't get that many stolen luck. My understanding is that you can't gain more luck dice than half your level per rest (meaning that even if you are level 10, you gain 5, then spend 2, you can't gain any more). I would actually define when you choose to use this. Is it before the roll is done? After? Personally I think it should be before the attack is rolled.

Fateful Words - Personal opinion. Drop this ability completely. Make the Cursed Fate an action and don't make it tied to hitting someone with a sneak attack. That makes it usable outside of combat. It you want something to increase the time, you can replace this with an ability to spend luck dice to increase the duration of the cursed fate.

Prophetic Curse - I like this as a capstone, it allows the use of imagination to make up something good and it has out of combat utility.

So just my initial impressions. Thanks for the submission :)

Vogie
2019-03-08, 09:23 AM
Added flavor text and cleaned up the feature names on the Longshot Ranger.

MoleMage
2019-03-08, 11:12 AM
I still haven't come up with an idea for the Luck. I thought I would have more for this. I might do a Druid thing based on omens. Or a Leprechaun Druid.

Vogie
2019-03-08, 01:45 PM
Various Reflections
Luck points seems odd. If your allies don't use their reactions to consume the luck points, your Sneak Attacks are gimped. You also write that you can't grant more luck equal than your charisma modifier twice, so that can be streamlined
Luck of a Traveller is a strange name for that feature. It's not really luck related, just based on being well-travelled, and adding the phrase "you know what I'm saying" after every 5 words seems like an odd downside.

Harmful strike seems like the DMG's proficiency variant rule, where you get a d4 instead of +2, a d6, instead of +3, and so on.
Sure Footed feels like it should be part of the Finding the Path feature instead of separate.
Percussive Maintenance should probably be worded "Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make." I'd like to see a combat impact of Percussive Maintenance, perhaps dealing increased damage to things that were recently repaired or healed?

I really like Lucky Aura and Kismet
I'd like Perfect luck to be more than just expanded crits a roll floor and +3 AC. Lets see something strange and amazing!
It doesn't say how often you can use your capstone

I like it, but it aggravates me that the 1st and 6th level features don't connect. Predicted spell makes sense, but doesn't mesh well with a subclass based around manipulating advantage.
Chosen Outcome is great.

I really like the anti-crit of Destiny's Curse and the mini-BI of Fortune's blessing, but they're both such small abilities by themself. Maybe include a half-feature, like added proficiencies or spells, or make them AOE spells. Perhaps increasing the targets over time?
I feel the expanded spell list has too many Concentration spells on it

I can't wrap my mind around the Deck based casting system in a moment, but there is no Bluff checks in 5e (it's either Deception or Persuasion).
Double or Nothing is really cool, but it is probably too powerful for every s/l rest. Maybe just every long rest.

Love the Luck dice!
For Fateful words, did you want it curse for hours equal to number of fate dice, or the value of the dice spent.
Prophetic curse should be shorter than "one sentance" - Choose a number of words, or maybe make them variable to the numbers rolled on the luck die

Kingsluger
2019-03-08, 04:36 PM
Various Reflections
I can't wrap my mind around the Deck based casting system in a moment, but there is no Bluff checks in 5e (it's either Deception or Persuasion).
Double or Nothing is really cool, but it is probably too powerful for every s/l rest. Maybe just every long rest.


Changed up the skill from bluff to deception, been power reading pathfinder stuff lately. The card casting is kinda hard to put into words but basically what I was going for instead of having a set level and number of spell slots, you draw a number of cards after your rest and the cards grant you spell slots of a level based on the number on the card. So for example, if I was drawing 3 cards and got a 6, 1 and a 2 I would have a level 3 and two level one spell slots. I'm considering removing the ties to spell school based on the card suit since that just further complicates an already complicated thing.

Man_Over_Game
2019-03-08, 04:57 PM
Various Reflections

I like it, but it aggravates me that the 1st and 6th level features don't connect. Predicted spell makes sense, but doesn't mesh well with a subclass based around manipulating advantage.
Chosen Outcome is great.

Thanks, Vogie. You made a good point.

Hmm...How about something like this:

When you cast a spell that causes a Saving Throw, you can opt to cause creatures it affects to roll with Advantage. If a creature makes their Saving Throw, you can immediately end the spell and regain a Spell Slot that's smaller than the Spell Slot spent.

This way, you can do some crazy stuff, like:

Impose Advantage, just to turn it back into Disadvantage with Twist of Fate, and still the spell slot refunded if the creature manages to use a Legendary Save.
Cast a spell that does damage up front (like Lightning Bolt), grant Advantage on everyone's saves, and then get the spell refunded, leaving the damage on the unlucky few who still failed.
Like the last bullet, but using Twinned Spell to deal some tremendous single target damage (with something like Finger of Death) and still cancel it to leave the lingering damage (and Zombie in the case of FoD).


Actually, I like this so much, I'm doing it.

SleeplessWriter
2019-03-08, 06:50 PM
Just edited the fatethief. Subsumed the fateful words ability into cursed fate, but made it take longer to curse a target either way. Also made it so you can only cause a single reroll in a round instead of one per cursed creature, and restricted it to rolls that didn't have disadvantage. Hopefully along with limiting how many creatures you can curse per short or long rest that'll reign in the ability a bit.
I also clarified a few things with other abilities, and cut most of the upgrades to the luck die size. Hope that's better power level wise.
Still haven't got the flavor text done yet.


As for other people's things, Kingsluger's gambler looks pretty good, but I do worry about the wonky spellcasting. the main problem is that the number of spellslots is based on the proficiency bonus. Even if you don't get the higher level slots it's pretty powerful to have six 1st level spell slots a short rest from only taking a single level in warlock. Paladins and sorcerers will be thrilled (or even moon druids who like the healing as an elemental). A more minor concern is the chance of having as many as four 5th level slots at 9th level, potentially throwing out two spells upcasted to 6th level by a 10th level warlock. I like the idea of the mechanic, but I'm worried that it could swing between wildly powerful and a new version of the 15 minute adventuring day ("Hey, guys, let's hold back a little longer, I got a bad draw"). Overall an interesting idea, but there's a few minor issues that need addressed. Maybe you draw cards until they reach a point total based on your level, discarding a card that makes you go over that total? Looking at the sorcerer to figure out how many points you should have and how many points each card should be might work for that.

Icecaster
2019-03-10, 10:58 AM
Thanks for looking at my stuff both of you!


Oath of Fortune Spells - I'm not sure on a few of the spells.
Shield - seems like it is to powerful and to easy to get it.
and there are a bunch of other ones that didn't seem to fit in to me. I know when I was starting the Oath of Luck I looked at these spells myself.
Oath of Luck Spells
3rd - Bane, Bless
5th - Aid, Mirror Image
9th - Bestow Curse, Remove Curse
13th - Compulsion, Death Ward
17th - Contagion, Mislead

Yeah, I was having a hard time deciding on good luck spells, so I decided to go with a subtheme of illusions, since most archetypes that take this oath would benefit greatly from having them out of combat without making things too good in combat. It looks like you took a similar route, so I'm not sure how you mean some of them don't fit. It had occurred to me that shield might be too strong, but the opportunity cost with a half-caster's slots justified for me, and I wanted to keep the theme on being lucky as opposed to degrading others' luck. In the end, I think I'll switch it to bane just so that the temptation to spam shield isn't there. If you were confused with haste, I was seeing it as a spell that essentially boosts luck on overdrive for a hot second. As for dispel evil and good vs contagion, I don't think disease fits the subclass theme at all, but dispel evil and good can be putting people on a level playing field, so to speak, so that luck is the only thing left to benefit from.


Shield of Fortune. - Consider that the way this is written you can use this, shield of faith, and shield. So by level 3 you are looking at a possible AC of 24 (splint +shield+defensive fighting style+ shield of faith + divinity) and then you can use a shield spell to get to 29 if you need it. This is almost silly powerful even at higher levels
Lucky Break - I might actually adjust this to be a 1d10 or 1d12. It makes it more chancy, but I don't think it is broken as is.

I mean, for the AC, if you want to use a spell slot and your channel divinity, get the fighting style, and go sword and board just to do that while having to maintain concentration, I'd say that's fine. You've achieved your character goal. And only 2 out of that 24 is actually from anything I made, so I don't think that's on me in the first place. I already took out shield, so that's also not a problem anymore. As for lucky break, an average of 5.5 or 6.5 would mean that nobody would ever use it over shield of fortune, and the option is basically like the one from conquest except it's utility and defense. The subclass is luck, not gambling, despite the references. I feel like the player should be able to reliably get lucky.


Fortuneís Favored - This is pretty unusual for a Paladin. It's a common design pattern with the X's and PhB Paladins to give oath spells and channel divinity at level 3. I would drop this entirely personally.

I know that's a thing, but if I were to play a luck character, I wouldn't want to have to multiclass to get guidance, which seems like a staple. It's not combat-based either, so I think I'll keep it for the flavor it adds to the subclass, and 3rd is the best level to give it.


Kismet - Okay, completely gut feeling here. However I'm worried that this would break the bounded accuracy model and you would never again fail a saving throw in your carrier. I would look at some other level 1 spells that would be fitting. Detect Poison and Disease, Expeditious Retreat, or do something else entirely. Maybe take the halfing luck skill?

I feel like that's a bit dramatic since you can already cast bless on yourself anyways. Now you just don't have to concentrate on it and can target another person when you do cast bless, making you a better tank and support, which is the whole theme of the subclass. I compared it to devotion's getting protection from good and evil all the time, and phrased it the same way. I feel like bless is on par with that, if not worse. Situation dependent, of course.


Perfect Luck - Look to tone this down some. The crit point seems powerful but fine. The +3 to AC combined with your other skills and spells is a little much, and an automatic roll of 12 seems like a little much. Maybe if you change out the shield spell and shield of fortune you can just do the +3 to AC and increased crit chance.

Fair points, but I think I'll be taking Vogie's advice and reworking the feature a little to make it more interesting and not so numbers-based.



I really like Lucky Aura and Kismet
I'd like Perfect luck to be more than just expanded crits a roll floor and +3 AC. Lets see something strange and amazing!
It doesn't say how often you can use your capstone


Thank you, I thought they'd be interesting.
That's a good point, it does seem very bland as is. I'll try to improve it!
Oh, good catch, I did not see that.

Update: I changed the 20th level feature a bit. I bumped the auto-roll down a smidge, ditched the AC bonus, and added some defense/utility things to help slip out of a tight situation.

Oubliette
2019-03-10, 05:36 PM
I recently posted a subclass on the main thread, but I did it at something like midnight on a whim and would like some help with balancing it, because I have a hard time judging its capabilities right now. The Way of the Chance Dancer, a monk subclass that is currently at the bottom of the thread.

sengmeng
2019-03-10, 09:22 PM
Beloved of the Dice is complete. I wanted to make a core mechanic that is useful for everyone, unique, flavorful mechanics for each class, and show a little love to those brave enough to multiclass. Balance was...less of a priority. Feedback welcome.

Vogie
2019-03-11, 02:25 PM
I just now noticed that we're allowed to create a subclass for a homebrew class, so I adjusted the Gambit feature to work with my Further Revised Ranger homebrew class, which already gives advantage on initiative.

If anyone has any notes or questions on the Longshot conclave, I always want feedback!



Update: I changed the 20th level feature a bit. I bumped the auto-roll down a smidge, ditched the AC bonus, and added some defense/utility things to help slip out of a tight situation.

It looks really good. I like how those who miss you are cursed with Three-Stooges-Style hijinks.

Max_Killjoy
2019-03-11, 06:23 PM
I just started (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?583011-Cleric-Domains) trying to find or homebrew 5e Domains to fill some of the glaring conceptual holes for various common deity "archetypes", and the first one that came up was Luck, in part because of this guy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?561642-Deities-and-Legends-for-Everyone&p=23758689#post23758689).

Great minds or something, I guess.

So, I'm reading these threads with quite a bit of interest.

sengmeng
2019-03-14, 09:34 AM
To sengmeng's "Beloved of Dice" universal subclass:

This is very ambitious, and I like the idea, but it seems needlessly complex.

The core mechanic of luck dice seems really weird. Basically, whenever you roll the maximum amount on a die, you can store it and add it to a roll, but if it is a d20, you don't add it but instead gain advantage, but only on other d20 rolls.

Doea anyone else feels this way? "Needlessly complicated," but that was a one sentence summary that perfectly explained it. The reasoning is that adding a d20 to damage rolls is something I can't really figure out the balance of, and just granting advantage with a max roll on any die makes something like magic missile incredibly powerful. Plus, the subclass interacts with advantage in a lot of ways, and advantage already works within the rule system, so I'd rather do that than add a d20 to a d20.

Vogie
2019-03-14, 10:50 AM
Doea anyone else feels this way? "Needlessly complicated," but that was a one sentence summary that perfectly explained it. The reasoning is that adding a d20 to damage rolls is something I can't really figure out the balance of, and just granting advantage with a max roll on any die makes something like magic missile incredibly powerful. Plus, the subclass interacts with advantage in a lot of ways, and advantage already works within the rule system, so I'd rather do that than add a d20 to a d20.

I think it could be cleaner, but it's quite ambitious - it's effectively a Prestige Class that everyone can take, that tries to connect with at least 2 of their existing class abilities. That's wild

One idea is to actually remove the d20s. Maybe the Beloved of Dice replaces all d20s with 2d10s, turning every roll into a bellcurve while removing the ability to nat 1. You could then have a half-advantage by changing your 2d10 to 3d10 (instead of advantage, which gives 4d10)

MoleMage
2019-03-14, 02:20 PM
Finally got the druid Circle of Omens outlined. I'm not sure on the power level right now (it tends to be high cost and high risk, and I'm not sure the rewards keep up), but I'll work on that as I finish the other Omens that can be learned. I should also be able to either tomorrow or early next week get feedback on all the other entries so far, which I've been putting off because I'm a procrastinator and also so I can do them in a large batch.

Man_Over_Game
2019-03-14, 02:58 PM
Finally got the druid Circle of Omens outlined. I'm not sure on the power level right now (it tends to be high cost and high risk, and I'm not sure the rewards keep up), but I'll work on that as I finish the other Omens that can be learned. I should also be able to either tomorrow or early next week get feedback on all the other entries so far, which I've been putting off because I'm a procrastinator and also so I can do them in a large batch.

A big concern I have is that the entire subclass is removed off of a single bad 50/50 chance roll.

Consider it against something like Moon Druid, who can often afford to use their subclass feature for a full hour, scouting, fighting, and performing various skills. It only needs to use a single resource because there's multiple actions they can perform with it.

On the flipside, your Omen on a failed coin toss either buffs an enemy or removes the entire subclass until another Short Rest. It is high risk, but it's high risk without player intervention. Reckless Attack is High Risk, High Reward, but actually *reduces* random chance by using Dis/Advantage. The player knows exactly what they're risking by using it. Similarly, Augury has a chance to fail, that the player knows about, which is why it can be cast as a Ritual (so that the player isn't actually losing a resource).

Losing playability and responsiveness because of something that you can't control or prevent can be a frustrating thing to deal with. It'd be one thing if this was a mechanic of some kind of frustrating boss that the team has to deal with once, but this is the *best* case scenario until level 14.

Perhaps allowing the Druid to force it to change to the other side by spending both Wild surges would be good, followed by just a minor down tuning of all the omens. It's also a bit hard to strategize with. Rather than some kind of ability that forces the team to adapt their tactics (akin to something like a Glamour Bard's buff), the team has no idea what kind of benefit is coming, or what to do about it.

Another way you could go about it is changing it into some kind of battlefield changing effect, like a massive aura that modifies the entire fight. Like giving everyone Flight, or reducing everyone's speed by 20, or causing everybody to not be able to see anything past 20 feet in front of them.

Lastly, it's pretty hard to track several things that all require various looksups. Take a look at the Battlemaster. If you know the name of the maneuver, you pretty much know everything you need to. Riposte, on an enemy miss, lets you attack and add a die to damage. Precise attack adds the die to your attack roll. Reaching strike gives you reach and die in bonus damage. It all follows a straightforward formula that is easy to memorize, and you know exactly what each of them are going to do.
In your Sky Omen example, there are about 2 effects per side of it, with both effects being relatively odd and hard to remember, and the Woe side using Saving Throws. And that's one Omen, which is determined by a 50/50 chance.

I love the idea of a Druid of Omens, but it's a little too random, and requires a bit too much lookup, I think.

Fnissalot
2019-03-15, 08:39 AM
Hi!
I had time to finish my College of the Bold. It tries to give the player the feeling of being bold and the option to push their luck in dangerous situations. The inspiration for it came from the idiom "Fortune favors the bold". Also, I didn't want luck or fortune to just feel like either chaos in line with the Wild Sorcerer, or just being slightly more consistent on skill checks and attack rolls. Any critique would be welcome!

I had another idea for a subclass that was based around having a deck of 20 cards (1-20 on the cards) that you would draw cards from instead of rolling a d20. The deck is only reshuffled once you had drawn all cards. You would have features that let you modify and scry the deck. The idea was that it would feel a bit like karma and gambling but I didn't manage to make it feel like luck so I abandoned it for now. I might try to pick it up later again.

nickl_2000
2019-03-15, 08:58 AM
Hi!
I had time to finish my College of the Bold. It tries to give the player the feeling of being bold and the option to push their luck in dangerous situations. The inspiration for it came from the idiom "Fortune favors the bold". Also, I didn't want luck or fortune to just feel like either chaos in line with the Wild Sorcerer, or just being slightly more consistent on skill checks and attack rolls. Any critique would be welcome!

I had another idea for a subclass that was based around having a deck of 20 cards (1-20 on the cards) that you would draw cards from instead of rolling a d20. The deck is only reshuffled once you had drawn all cards. You would have features that let you modify and scry the deck. The idea was that it would feel a bit like karma and gambling but I didn't manage to make it feel like luck so I abandoned it for now. I might try to pick it up later again.

Nice job getting it in just before the deadline :)

Bonus Proficiencies - Prof in Concentration Saving throws is a little different. I'm not against it, but just not a normal phrasing.

Fortuneís Returning Favors - Clarity question. Does the double damage/countering only happen if you use a bardic inspiration or whenever you use your reaction? It's a little vague.

In the Face of Danger - I would add a rider in that "if you hit, it counts as a critical hit" That way when you are against someone who you can't hit with an 18 it's clear.

An interesting subclass, high danger, higher rewards. I would worry a little bit about Fortune Favor's the Bold being overpowered, especially with spells but that would need to be seen in play testing.

Fnissalot
2019-03-15, 09:16 AM
Nice job getting it in just before the deadline :)

Bonus Proficiencies - Prof in Concentration Saving throws is a little different. I'm not against it, but just not a normal phrasing.

Fortuneís Returning Favors - Clarity question. Does the double damage/countering only happen if you use a bardic inspiration or whenever you use your reaction? It's a little vague.

In the Face of Danger - I would add a rider in that "if you hit, it counts as a critical hit" That way when you are against someone who you can't hit with an 18 it's clear.

An interesting subclass, high danger, higher rewards. I would worry a little bit about Fortune Favor's the Bold being overpowered, especially with spells but that would need to be seen in play testing.

Thanks! Updated those three to make them a bit more clear.

I don't think it will be to overpowered with spells. There are very few spell attack spells in the bards spell list.

Vogie
2019-03-15, 10:24 AM
A big concern I have is that the entire subclass is removed off of a single bad 50/50 chance roll.


I'm inclined to agree, largely because you only ever have 2 wild shape uses per short rest... that doesn't change. However, there's a decent fix - Make the class resemble the land druid.

You invoke your Omens using spell slots (effects scaling with spell slot used), but then use wild shape uses to choose the other side of the coin. That will increase the power of the class, but you're stuck with the 2 "reflips" per short rest, at the cost of your Wild Shape utility. You'd have to change Omen Twister, though.

Fatecaster and Omensight are fine.


I had time to finish my College of the Bold. It tries to give the player the feeling of being bold and the option to push their luck in dangerous situations. The inspiration for it came from the idiom "Fortune favors the bold". Also, I didn't want luck or fortune to just feel like either chaos in line with the Wild Sorcerer, or just being slightly more consistent on skill checks and attack rolls. Any critique would be welcome!

I like it, but it looks like it's a bit too narrow:
Fortuneís Returning Favors is a neat ability, but it's odd for a Bard - they don't have damaging spells for the most part. It could be interesting to cast Hold Person, for example, as a reaction, but the wording that it requires an attack roll means they can't even use Vicious Mockery. Also, spells with a range of touch also include "make a melee spell attack" in their spell text, IIRC, so that'd be covered under "melee attack". Maybe some reworks and narrow it down to what specifically you want.

In the Face of Danger, on the other hand, is TOO narrow. You could redeem it by expanding your crit range even further (maybe even 16 or 17-20) while you have disadvantage for any reason. Then, if you crit, then have it not only removed Frightened, but also the Poisoned and Restrained conditions (or any other conditions that provide disadvantage that don't include being blinded or incapacitated).

Ballad of the Boldest Fools is tied into the frightened thing as well, although I like that you're moving the bard abilities around. Maybe expand that a bit, and have any ally that has a bardic inspiration die from you also be able to use the Countercharm action. Thus, you're not locked into only providing countercharm (anti-frightened & anti-charm) in a 30ft area, but also donate that ability to other people in the party, spreading the love around larger areas, and give your allies some added function (give a non-ranged character something to do against a dragon's frightful presence, or give a blaster caster a utility spell)

Fnissalot
2019-03-15, 12:57 PM
I like it, but it looks like it's a bit too narrow:
Fortuneís Returning Favors is a neat ability, but it's odd for a Bard - they don't have damaging spells for the most part. It could be interesting to cast Hold Person, for example, as a reaction, but the wording that it requires an attack roll means they can't even use Vicious Mockery. Also, spells with a range of touch also include "make a melee spell attack" in their spell text, IIRC, so that'd be covered under "melee attack". Maybe some reworks and narrow it down to what specifically you want.

In the Face of Danger, on the other hand, is TOO narrow. You could redeem it by expanding your crit range even further (maybe even 16 or 17-20) while you have disadvantage for any reason. Then, if you crit, then have it not only removed Frightened, but also the Poisoned and Restrained conditions (or any other conditions that provide disadvantage that don't include being blinded or incapacitated).

Ballad of the Boldest Fools is tied into the frightened thing as well, although I like that you're moving the bard abilities around. Maybe expand that a bit, and have any ally that has a bardic inspiration die from you also be able to use the Countercharm action. Thus, you're not locked into only providing countercharm (anti-frightened & anti-charm) in a 30ft area, but also donate that ability to other people in the party, spreading the love around larger areas, and give your allies some added function (give a non-ranged character something to do against a dragon's frightful presence, or give a blaster caster a utility spell)

I think Returning Favors might be to strong if there are no limits on what spells you get to cast but it was probably to strict. Mordekainen's Sword is the only spell on the bard spell list that it would apply to. Also thanks for pointing out my miss with touch spells.

I changed In the Face of Danger to be usable under any disadvantage. I chose to keep the removal of fear a it is more of a ribbon for the subclass.

Reworked Ballad of the Boldest Fools loosely based on your suggestion. I had forgotten about Countercharm. It feels unneccesary to grant immunity to frightened when you already have the ability to grant advantage against it. I rewrote the ability so that Countercharm is a bonus action when you are at less than half hit points and that countercharm also lets your allies use Fortune's Returning Favors.

nickl_2000
2019-03-15, 01:03 PM
I think Returning Favors might be to strong if there are no limits on what spells you get to cast but it was probably to strict. Mordekainen's Sword is the only spell on the bard spell list that it would apply to. Also thanks for pointing out my miss with touch spells.

I changed In the Face of Danger to be usable under any disadvantage. I chose to keep the removal of fear a it is more of a ribbon for the subclass.

Reworked Ballad of the Boldest Fools loosely based on your suggestion. I had forgotten about Countercharm. It feels unneccesary to grant immunity to frightened when you already have the ability to grant advantage against it. I rewrote the ability so that Countercharm is a bonus action when you are at less than half hit points and that countercharm also lets your allies use Fortune's Returning Favors.

I was really, really confused by that quote for a while. I didn't remembering typing anything in that at all (that being said, I've had some pretty serious meds recently after a lovely string of illnesses). However, I'm glad to know it was an odd typo instead of me losing my mind. Vogie said that, not me :)

Fnissalot
2019-03-15, 01:35 PM
I was really, really confused by that quote for a while. I didn't remembering typing anything in that at all (that being said, I've had some pretty serious meds recently after a lovely string of illnesses). However, I'm glad to know it was an odd typo instead of me losing my mind. Vogie said that, not me :)

Sorry! I accidentally did something wrong with the quote... =S

MoleMage
2019-03-17, 12:42 PM
I'm inclined to agree, largely because you only ever have 2 wild shape uses per short rest... that doesn't change. However, there's a decent fix - Make the class resemble the land druid.

You invoke your Omens using spell slots (effects scaling with spell slot used), but then use wild shape uses to choose the other side of the coin. That will increase the power of the class, but you're stuck with the 2 "reflips" per short rest, at the cost of your Wild Shape utility. You'd have to change Omen Twister, though.

Fatecaster and Omensight are fine.


That's a good idea for a solution. I'll see if I can't figure out a spell slot version of it this week.

Kingsluger
2019-03-18, 08:32 AM
As for other people's things, Kingsluger's gambler looks pretty good, but I do worry about the wonky spellcasting. the main problem is that the number of spellslots is based on the proficiency bonus. Even if you don't get the higher level slots it's pretty powerful to have six 1st level spell slots a short rest from only taking a single level in warlock. Paladins and sorcerers will be thrilled (or even moon druids who like the healing as an elemental). A more minor concern is the chance of having as many as four 5th level slots at 9th level, potentially throwing out two spells upcasted to 6th level by a 10th level warlock. I like the idea of the mechanic, but I'm worried that it could swing between wildly powerful and a new version of the 15 minute adventuring day ("Hey, guys, let's hold back a little longer, I got a bad draw"). Overall an interesting idea, but there's a few minor issues that need addressed. Maybe you draw cards until they reach a point total based on your level, discarding a card that makes you go over that total? Looking at the sorcerer to figure out how many points you should have and how many points each card should be might work for that.

Changed it up to be the amount of spell slots a warlock normally would have +1. You still have the problem of someone trying to take another rest to get a better draw but I'm not totally sure how to handle that beyond telling that player no, they would not benefit from another short rest. That being said I'm not too worried about having as many as 4 level 5 spell slots at 11th (previously 9th) due to how unlikely a draw like that is and the spell school restrictions heavily discouraging someone from casting the same spell more than once.

MoleMage
2019-03-18, 01:02 PM
Alright, in accordance with feedback from MOG and Vogie, I did another pass at the Omen druid. Omens now consume spell slots and are much simpler (having a universal effect of boosting/penalizing dice rolls, plus an easily recorded secondary effect specific to each omen). Fatecaster got reworked (now always allows the spellcasting, with the spell slot consumption being shared between Omen and spell, but at reduced value). Omensight unchanged. Omen Twister now reduces the effect of the omen if you use it.

I'm considering allowing the Druid to use their reaction to negate a Weal omen bonus (without consuming the charge), in a mirror of Woe allowing the druid to use their reaction to force an omen penalty. Thoughts?

I'll do review for half of the posted subclasses tomorrow (Tuesday), and half Wednesday, by post order. 11 entries other than my own is too much for one sitting.

Ivellius
2019-03-18, 04:20 PM
Y'all, I really wanted to do a Leprechaun Patron but I think we generally have too many warlock patrons in these competitions as it stands. Therefore, behold my Destiny Domain! Instead of just being luck-based, why not name your fate?

I'm pretty pleased with it overall, though any feedback on the "timing" / use counts of various abilities is certainly up for discussion. Also not sure if the 2nd and 6th abilities should both be CDs, though to me it (obviously) feels like they should.

MoleMage
2019-03-19, 02:29 PM
Feedback time!




I like the idea of trading sneak attack damage for a bonus.
Self-Made Luck almost makes me want to just skip luck points. The average value for a d6 where you can reroll ones and twos is ~4.2. For an extra ~0.7 damage per die on my sneak attack, I would definitely consider giving up the accuracy boost, unless my DM had a habit of throwing things at the upper end of bounded AC at me. This seems like it is intended to make up for lost dice in a small way, maybe a conditional requirement to ensure it doesn't benefit the no-luck-point Scoundrel?
Luck of a Traveler is a good ribbon.
Fool's Luck could stand to be stronger on the rogue damage end in my opinion. I'd have to see it in play, though. The extra bonus for Luck Points should be fine.





First of all, putting the dumb in dumb luck gives you extra credit right there.
It's odd that Fortuitous Strike isn't a rage feature, as other barbarians usually get one at level 3. Otherwise it's fine (in rage, this barbarian is not competing with Frenzy's extra attack or Bear's resist all or Wolf's ally advantage, but it makes up for it by not requiring rage, IMO).
Impact Calibration: Fun little ribbon. I might swap its position with Bumbling Path as 10 is the usual barbarian ribbon level.
Bumbling Path: Nothing really to comment on. It fits, other than being at a level when barbarians usually get a ribbon instead of a combat feature.
Percussive Maintenance: Nice little buff to Impact Calibration.
Fortunate Footing: Honestly this feels a little weak, compared to Ranger's Land's Stride for example.





I like your Tenets. Having done a paladin last session I know how hard it can be to carve out a niche that's distinct from the existing oaths and I think you did a good job of that here.
Pass Without Trace, Major Image, and Greater Invisibility are a little odd to my mind, but I can understand them. The rest are right on theme.
Both Channel Divinities are on the stronger side, but are within the expected power level. This is good, I've seen paladins who routinely forgot they had Channel Divinity because their options didn't feel strong enough.
Fortune's Favored: neat little pickup. Cantrips aren't hard to come by but getting one still feels good.
Lucky Aura: This is perhaps too strong. Consider the interactions with the party's rogue, for example (now there's no way to lock out sneak attack). I would change it to allowing affected allies to ignore disadvantage for that reason alone. But beyond that, most forms of disadvantage are attached to, and often are the primary drawback of, conditions such as Frightened. This basically allows you to ignore the biggest combat penalty of a wide variety of conditions, when in comparison other auras allow ignoring a single condition (though they get all effects not just disadvantage).
Kismet is also pretty strong as it pushes against the bounded accuracy model of 5e.
Perfect Luck: It's a paladin transformation. They're all strong, and this one is too.



Overall, I think this Oath is a little too strong. No feature individually is too strong, but they are all at the upper end of power expectations for their individual feature level, and taken altogether the subclass doesn't have ups and downs, just ups.




Critical Hit refresh is a way better mechanic than Wild Magic has.
AC based on Charisma is already a good feature, even if it is limited to 10+, but giving Disadvantage on all attack rolls against you is too strong. I would just say "you can use Charisma instead of Dexterity to calculate your Armor Class when you are not wearing armor".
Recycled Luck's wording is hard to follow. I think I understand how it works though, and it seems fine (though putting an ally with Evasion in the middle of a bunch of enemies and then using Careful Magic would allow you to do some interesting things like casting Fireball at 5th (half damage), then 4th (half damage), then 3rd (normal save) level from a single 5th level starting slot, turning what would be 10d6 into 5d6+4.5d6+8d6. The loss of action economy helps make up for this).
Misfortune Feedback: I assume the spells Bane and Hellish Rebuke are cast at their lowest possible spell slot (1st level?).
Chosen Outcome: Is this automatic or does the sorcerer choose whether to use it? If I fireball an enemy as a Reaction, do my allies also have disadvantage on their saves?



Overall I like it. It mixes up the game economy though, so its performance will be highly dependent on how close to guidelines it's played at.




Expanded spell list mostly looks go, though Staggering Smite and Contagion are a little odd to me.
Destiny's Curse is highly likely to do nothing. Consider that most combat lasts maybe 3 rounds. By my math, it only has a ~46% chance of doing anything at all assuming the target needs to make 4 d20 checks per round over a 3 round combat. In exploration and social situations, it is even less likely, as those often resolve in just one or two checks. I'd either add another effect or allow it to be used as a reaction when a 20 comes up once per rest instead of requiring it to be used ahead of time.
Fortune's Blessing is a lot more reliable. Attack rolls are pretty easy to predict, and saving throws aren't that much harder. I also like that you can use it right before dropping a big AoE to protect your allies from the effect.
Fate's Servant: This adds a rider to Destiny's Curse that makes it reliable, but it comes 9 levels after the fact.
Doom's Verdict: A good feature. Only problem is that it would get considerably stronger with each additional party member you add, which makes it hard to decide the balance without an expected party size.





Implausible Critical is an odd mechanic but I like it. It does a little bit more than expanded critical.
I feel like Capsize should do something beneficial only on one side of the coin. Prone is detrimental to your ranged attacks as a Longshot, but it is still beneficial overall, allowing your melee allies to beat them up and providing the same penalty to attack rolls that blinded gives.
Unsettling Movement: Basically Drunken Master's Kip Up, Barbarian's Danger Sense, and Deflect Arrows all as one feature? I would dial this back to a pick-one feature a la Hunter Conclave's special attacks. Alternatively, you could spread it out more, so that you get one at 7, one at 11, and one at 15.
Shifting Fate is a good way to play with Advantage that still feels like a tier upgrade. I have no complaints here that aren't the ranger base class's fault.
Gambit: It all looks good here. The 3-heads benefit is really nice but with only a 1/8 chance per combat it will feel special when it happens.


I remember you had posted saying you were working this Conclave to work with a version of ranger which you had made, so I'll remind you that the rules require that any homebrew base classes be linked from the submission (and allowed by the original creator but when using your own I think it can be assumed). I've been letting it slide for classes using the UA Revised Ranger, since strictly speaking that isn't homebrew, but unless you add a link I (and probably others) are going to work on the assumption that this is for either the base ranger or the UA Revised Ranger.


I haven't forgotten the rest of you. Come back around this time tomorrow and check for another post getting the other 6 classes so far.
Also, we have just under a week left in the contest, and we're sitting at 13 subclasses in this luck-themed contest.

theVoidWatches
2019-03-19, 03:35 PM
Feedback time!


I like the idea of trading sneak attack damage for a bonus.
Self-Made Luck almost makes me want to just skip luck points. The average value for a d6 where you can reroll ones and twos is ~4.2. For an extra ~0.7 damage per die on my sneak attack, I would definitely consider giving up the accuracy boost, unless my DM had a habit of throwing things at the upper end of bounded AC at me. This seems like it is intended to make up for lost dice in a small way, maybe a conditional requirement to ensure it doesn't benefit the no-luck-point Scoundrel?
Luck of a Traveler is a good ribbon.
Fool's Luck could stand to be stronger on the rogue damage end in my opinion. I'd have to see it in play, though. The extra bonus for Luck Points should be fine.



Self-Made Luck is supposed to help make up for the decreased damage of giving people Luck Points, yeah. I can make it only apply while you're granting Luck Points, which ought to help.

The biggest bonus from Fool's Luck, IMO, is that it isn't limited to the same conditions as Sneak Attack for when it can work. But you're right that it's still a major loss of damage - maybe if it's a +2 damage bonus instead? That would kind of mean that instead of losing a die of Sneak Attack for each Luck Point your grant, the damage of that die goes down to 2, which feels like it matches up with Self-Made Luck.


Various Reflections
Luck points seems odd. If your allies don't use their reactions to consume the luck points, your Sneak Attacks are gimped. You also write that you can't grant more luck equal than your charisma modifier twice, so that can be streamlined
Luck of a Traveller is a strange name for that feature. It's not really luck related, just based on being well-travelled, and adding the phrase "you know what I'm saying" after every 5 words seems like an odd downside.

Gimping your sneak attack to help your allies is kind of... the point? It's the central mechanic of the class.

You can't grant more luck than your Cha at once, and you can't grant more than that to a single person at all. It's not redundant, because you don't HAVE to grant your Cha in points at once - you can give someone 3 points one round, and then another 2 points the next round (assuming your bonus is +5) but you can't give them 3 points and then another 3.

It is an odd name for the feature, I admit. The idea is that you're lucky enough to be able to guess what people are saying, and get your meaning across. Refluffing it might help it make more sense.

Anyway, I reworded some stuff and improved the flavor text some.

Man_Over_Game
2019-03-19, 03:36 PM
Critical Hit refresh is a way better mechanic than Wild Magic has.
AC based on Charisma is already a good feature, even if it is limited to 10+, but giving Disadvantage on all attack rolls against you is too strong. I would just say "you can use Charisma instead of Dexterity to calculate your Armor Class when you are not wearing armor".
Recycled Luck's wording is hard to follow. I think I understand how it works though, and it seems fine (though putting an ally with Evasion in the middle of a bunch of enemies and then using Careful Magic would allow you to do some interesting things like casting Fireball at 5th (half damage), then 4th (half damage), then 3rd (normal save) level from a single 5th level starting slot, turning what would be 10d6 into 5d6+4.5d6+8d6. The loss of action economy helps make up for this).
Misfortune Feedback: I assume the spells Bane and Hellish Rebuke are cast at their lowest possible spell slot (1st level?).
Chosen Outcome: Is this automatic or does the sorcerer choose whether to use it? If I fireball an enemy as a Reaction, do my allies also have disadvantage on their saves?



Overall I like it. It mixes up the game economy though, so its performance will be highly dependent on how close to guidelines it's played at.




I'm really glad you like it!

On the Charisma-AC, some numbers:

An enemy with a +3 bonus to hit against:

13 AC: 55%
13 AC with Disadvantage: 30.25%
15: AC: 45%
15 AC with Disadvantage: 20.25%
20 AC (Heavy Armor + Shield): 20%

Now an enemy with +8 bonus to hit against:

13 AC: 80%
13 AC with Disadvantage: 64%
15: AC: 70%
15 AC with Disadvantage: 49%
20 AC (Heavy Armor + Shield): 45%

So you make a good point. I do still like the Disadvantage to hit, as the idea is that you can force an enemy to hit you by using Twist of Fate, which can activate Misfortune Feedback as an expensive way of casting out of turn.

I might change it to 8 + Charisma in AC, though, as this starts to become *slightly* better than Mage Armor with a +2 Charisma Bonus. It'd also give the feel of "oh crap, my AC is low", while still having better survivability than anyone with Mage Armor.

There's a rule somewhere (not 100% sure exactly what page) that says that spells that are cast without a spell slot are always cast at their lowest possible level, which is why I didn't clarify what level Bane and Hellish Rebuke are cast at.

That's a valid point on Chosen Outcome. I'll make it so that you can choose, which is kind of an obvious decision, considering the feature's title!

Ivellius
2019-03-19, 09:36 PM
Sure, I'll try to hand out some feedback on things.

Honestly? Not sure I have much to say here. I think it's a little complicated, but I don't have any concrete ideas for simplifying, and it offers a unique and thematic niche. I would offer additional scaling for Better Lucky Than Good (d8 at 13th and d10 at 17th), and I think you forgot a "not proficient" in Luck of the Traveller, but otherwise it seems solid. If I were changing anything, I'd rework Fool's Luck, but nothing comes to mind for other options.

Love the concept. I agree with flipping Bumbling Path to 6 (it isn't that strong, but Fortuitous Strike increases as well), but it does feel a bit weak at 14. Fortunate Footing could be a little better, is really what I'm saying (but don't overload it with features).

Spell list seems a little strange in places. Bane / Bless and Aid are obvious; Mislead is really good, and Dispel Good and Evil and Greater Invisibility seem all right. Other suggestions here: I'd definitely lose Pass without Trace (probably for Mirror Image, though there are other options like Augury, Blur, and Crown of Madness). 3rd level options could be Bestow / Remove Curse, Blink, or Hypnotic Pattern, as I'm not a fan of either of those there. As 4th-level spells, I like Confusion, Dimension Door, Freedom of Movement, Hallucinatory Terrain, Secret Chest...maybe Guardian of Faith or Locate Creature, even.

I don't like Shield of Fortune given its ability to stack with other AC increases, but Lucky Break is a good option.

Lucky Aura seems on the stronger side, as it potentially negates enemies' tricks, but it doesn't provide an outright benefit on most occasions. I guess the best way I can describe it is "game-warping" in how it can influence DM plans.

Kismet is thematic but also feels fairly strong. Given that Bless is on the spell list (and the other features lean on the stronger side), I do think I'd replace this.

I don't know if Perfect Luck is too strong, but it's too many things. My suggestion is to pull off a couple of the benefits (I'd say the third and fourth) and rewrite the last to read: "You may add your proficiency bonus to any skill checks you make that you arenít already proficient with."

Interesting early feature. Critical hit refresh is weird but fitting (I'd change "see" to "notice" or "observe" to add a little clarity that it can work with non-visible creatures, or reword to make it clear that it's only visible ones). The AC change is a weird calculation, though, and if you kept it I'd rename it to be its own listed feature.

The other features need rewriting to bring them more in line with 5e standards and just make what they're doing clearer. It's also missing additional ways to spend sorcery points, which usually happens with at least one of an origin's features.

Given the patron, I think the spell list is actually a little too random. I did a version of this that had things like Command, for example, that's just causing things to happen. Given that, I do really like Enhance Ability, Bestow Curse, Slow, and Staggering Smite (though I'd like that better if it had one or two other smites, though also I get why it doesn't).

As noted, Destiny's Curse is likely to be useless, though when it triggers it'll feel really good. If you want to keep the feature, I would make it usable Cha mod number of times per long rest (min. 1), which lets you spread it out a bit. You also probably have to keep in mind that you want the occasional bonus action early for Hex targets in many / most fights, but it's good for ensuring a big "boss" doesn't crit you out of a fight.

I like Fortune's Blessing, but can it be used on yourself? Add a sentence clarifying that if needed (or just "other" before "willing creature"), and I think you forgot an "or": sentence would read better as "The next time within the next minute that the creature is forced to make a saving throw or is targeted by an attack roll, it adds 1d8 to its saving throw or AC against that attack roll."

Fate's Servant is nice, better than I'd expect, and thematically builds on the patron's identity. Some decent synergy with a melee warlock. Having more potential Destiny's Curse uses would also improve this feature a bit.

I like the flavor of Doom's Verdict, but it feels really strong (and does scale with more party members quite heavily). Perhaps a better option would be to grant vulnerability to an instance of damage with your reaction (probably declared after the attack hits but before damage is rolled). I think it would be good at Cha modifier uses per long rest, though uses might be tweakable. As it is, this is probably strong enough to be a once-per-day feature.

Aside from the capstone, I do quite like this one.

To be honest, Hex is a little weird with Hunter's Mark, too, but it's probably worth taking.

I think, given the double features, something at 3rd level just needs to be cut. While Implausible Critical's potential variance is high, assuming you make ~2 d20 rolls in a round you've got quite a few chances to trigger automatic critical hits / basically automatic save successes, and a decent chunk of those numbers would otherwise be failures. Combined with Capsize, though, if you're getting any consistent advantage on attack rolls...that's even nastier.

Unsettling Movement also does too much. Comparing the Hunter, I think the second and third benefits are worthy selections if that's the only thing you get, and Leap to Your Feet could easily be buffed to be comparable. I agree with making this a choice.

Shifting Fate is really cool. I think I'd just make it a single stored use (pulling away advantage, while situational, feels nice), though I'd also probably then let the ranger bank it for himself for later if he has advantage.

Gambit is neat, but it's too much too remember. I don't know why you have a line in there about choosing not to flip--I can't see any disadvantage to doing it--and it's probably reasonably solid without the "active" coin-flip benefits, maybe a little on the weak side. Again comparing with the Hunter, though, it doesn't look that far off at that point.

I am curmudgeonly and don't like anything that mucks with the mechanics of 5e so much. Having said that, here's what feedback I will muster.

This feels pretty complicated. It's an interesting idea, and the requirements (say, for using d20s) probably balance things, but there's a lot of bookkeeping involved. I think the features themselves work pretty well, but it is a "win-more" class in one sense. As you gain features, there becomes some protection against bad luck, but it takes a while to get there. Having said that, it'll trigger quite a bit, and there's an interesting trade-off to deliberately using lower dice sizes for more procs (though being able to swap them out for bigger ones at no penalty makes the trade-off matter less, too).

Encouraging multiclassing so much also seems strange to me. There's a huge difference in pulling this as a Cleric / Warlock / Sorcerer hybrid (I think you can get to 10 Luck Dice with Cleric 2 / Warlock 1 / Sorcerer 1, unless I misunderstand), and while that might be an abomination of a build it's pretty different than getting it as Fighter 3 / Ranger 3 / Rogue 3, for example. I believe the earliest you can pull Luck Never Runs out is Cleric 8, but Supreme Luck needs to wait until character level 16 (Cleric 6 plus one of Barb / Druid / Fighter / Rogue / Wizard to level 10). The latter gives you 21 Luck Dice, then two more levels in Cleric adds 7 for a total of 28 (which gets you to Luck Never Runs Out, also). Then, you can get 17 more with 1 level in Sorcerer and Warlock each. So 45 Luck Dice is our theoretical cap for a 20-level build...good luck using all of those in a single round.

There are also some strong things in the class-specific stuff, especially given most of those laters are stacking with a minimum of 3 more dice and Consistent Luck, unless I misunderstand. Depending on how many dice you have stored up (and combined with other features like Consistent Luck), some of the potential disadvantages might not matter much at all. Weird thing that stands out: your cleric gets Channel Divinity one level earlier than all the others.

Another one where I really like the core concept. The spell list doesn't make much sense to me, though.

Initially Deck of Cards was too strong early (another spell slot? Sign me up, said every Warlock ever) and scaled poorly. You've fixed that, though, so that's a better break this time around. I do think I'd add language that you can perform this draw only once per short or long rest (so you have to take a whole other hour to re-draw) just for clarity, though it's basically in there anyway...I dunno. Binding cards to suits is also an interesting wrinkle to keep this in check. Overall, it's probably about where it should be.

Poker Face is okay. Kind of situational.

Pair is interesting but pretty weak. You're effectively giving up the main advantage of taking this pact for a (somewhat small) chance to buff a spell above what you "should" be able to do? At the minimum I'd throw away the suit disadvantage link at this level as well.

Given the name, shouldn't Double or Nothing be a normal hit if you fail the re-reroll? As it is, I'd probably just make it Cha mod uses per long rest. If you make it an actual chance thing (that is, fails if you fail the re-rolled attack), I probably wouldn't cap the uses at all (maybe Cha mod per short).

Whew. I see what this is going for, but it's too complex a way to handle this concept to fit well in 5e. Also, everything in here is offense-heavy--a good class option should generally branch out in other ways (utility or defensive options, in short), and Rogue Archetypes in particular.

Prophetic Curse is the most interesting feature, being a geas analog, but the scaling (one sentence per Luck Dice..?) seems weird, and there's a chance it does literally nothing despite costing a lot of the archetype's resources.

Edit: I lied, let's just finish these while I have some time.

This seems pretty fun.

There's a chance Eye of the Mind just doesn't do anything useful, though it's broad enough that it usually will. I think it's probably fine as a 1 ki option, though there will be times where it'll be really good.

Chance Dancing is a solid feature that I really appreciate. I'd probably make it "Large or smaller" creature; as written, it penalizes Small monks a bit (but also allows for some enlarge shenanigans so I'm conflicted there).

Much like Doom's Verdict on the Fatekeeper Patron, Echoing Providence is really good. To be fair, it's not Stunning Strike, but at least there's a chance that's wasted...right? To be honest, though, despite the thematic there's probably too much overlap with SS.

Manifestation of Serendipity seems like a good capstone to me. Really strong in crowd situations. I think the wording's a little off, though. Rewrite as "Up to 6 friendly creatures within range that you can see gain the benefits of a bless spell until the start of your next turn, and up to six hostile creatures within range that you can see must make a Wisdom saving throw. If the creature fails, it wastes its action on its next turn due to sudden misfortune."

Agh! You over-corrected here from the initial draft.

The good: The concept from the beginning was good, if you ask me. Having some control to flip is excellent, though I do think you should always consider how Archdruid interacts with such things (so I'd probably just make it a once per short rest choice). Fatecaster is a nice concept / rider effect to tie to the main feature. Omensight works well as a utility feature, and Omen Twister is almost exactly what I'd want, I think.

The bad: There's a ton of bookkeeping here: you need to track durations, "charges," small bonuses on the individual omens, and what happens at the end of the omen, and as far as I can tell you can have multiples running. Most combats don't go longer than 1 minute, but disadvantage on all attack rolls and ability checks for at least 1 minute is crippling (imagine an NPC using this on a PC, for instance). Fatecaster is kind of complex in wording (I'd probably just force you to expend an additional spell slot that you're using to cast the rider spell). The Weal / Woe "charges" are a decent concept on their own, but they forced the actual omen effects to be pretty watered down. Also, unless I'm missing something, you learn only two omens at the beginning of this circle, can never learn any others, and you can't change your choices, either, which is weird.

Y'all are maybe going to convince me making bard college isn't so bad. Well, no, maybe not quite that.

I love the opening stuff here. I do think Fortune's Returning Favors is a bit complex: I'd leave it at "When you are hit by a melee attack, you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against that creature. If you hit, roll damage normally and additionally reduce the attack's damage by the amount rolled. If you miss the attack roll, you gain vulnerability to that instance of damage. Before you roll the attack roll, you may expend a bardic inspiration and add it to your attack roll." If you really want the spell part, there needs to be additional language on it, I think.

In the Face of Danger adds an interesting twist to disadvantage (almost turns it into a kind of advantage...wonder if 19-20 isn't better), and I really like what it does for being frightened, even if that's really situational.

Ballad of the Boldest Fools seems like a weird way to bring its effects in (riding on another feature), but I like it.

SleeplessWriter
2019-03-20, 01:57 AM
Just rewrote the fatethief, hopefully it's a bit simpler, and I made the features less combat oriented. Cursed Fate now gives straight up disadvantage, but only on a single type of roll that the player chooses, forcing them to be a bit more strategic, and they gain luck dice at random when the cursed target would have succeeded if not for disadvantage. Moved lengthening the duration of the curse to 9th level, cut Cut the Thread (heh) and Twisted Choices. Added Stolen Prophecy as a nice divination/roleplay feature that ties better to the theme of the subclass. A little less restrictive wording on Prophetic Curse, but you only have a minute to spit your "prophecy" out. Also made it less of a gamble on those extra two luck dice to activate the ability.

Been a bit busy lately, but I'll try to be back later tomorrow with some short feedback for everybody. Thanks for all your help, guys.

Edit: Just noticed that we have thirteen entries. kinda ironic :smallamused:.

MoleMage
2019-03-20, 08:18 AM
Sure, I'll try to hand out some feedback on things.

Agh! You over-corrected here from the initial draft.

The good: The concept from the beginning was good, if you ask me. Having some control to flip is excellent, though I do think you should always consider how Archdruid interacts with such things (so I'd probably just make it a once per short rest choice). Fatecaster is a nice concept / rider effect to tie to the main feature. Omensight works well as a utility feature, and Omen Twister is almost exactly what I'd want, I think.

The bad: There's a ton of bookkeeping here: you need to track durations, "charges," small bonuses on the individual omens, and what happens at the end of the omen, and as far as I can tell you can have multiples running. Most combats don't go longer than 1 minute, but disadvantage on all attack rolls and ability checks for at least 1 minute is crippling (imagine an NPC using this on a PC, for instance). Fatecaster is kind of complex in wording (I'd probably just force you to expend an additional spell slot that you're using to cast the rider spell). The Weal / Woe "charges" are a decent concept on their own, but they forced the actual omen effects to be pretty watered down. Also, unless I'm missing something, you learn only two omens at the beginning of this circle, can never learn any others, and you can't change your choices, either, which is weird.


Alright, I've moved back toward the original interpretation but split off Omen uses as its own resource (now Wis/LR). It now uses its own charges to negate as well.

Generic Weal and Woe removed once again, and Omens are scaled back up slightly to compensate. Many omens now have a baseline effect and an effect if the druid uses their Reaction, meaning that enemies may be penalized more for a woe omen and allies benefit more from a weal omen, at the cost of the druid's reaction. Fatecaster was restored to consuming the spell slot for the extra spell.

Vogie
2019-03-20, 08:19 AM
Implausible Critical is an odd mechanic but I like it. It does a little bit more than expanded critical.
I feel like Capsize should do something beneficial only on one side of the coin. Prone is detrimental to your ranged attacks as a Longshot, but it is still beneficial overall, allowing your melee allies to beat them up and providing the same penalty to attack rolls that blinded gives.
Unsettling Movement: Basically Drunken Master's Kip Up, Barbarian's Danger Sense, and Deflect Arrows all as one feature? I would dial this back to a pick-one feature a la Hunter Conclave's special attacks. Alternatively, you could spread it out more, so that you get one at 7, one at 11, and one at 15.



Implausible critical is basically the same as Expanded critical, statistically, but feels more spread out and odd... which was the point. It also can occasionally not do anything, as you could roll a 20 after a long rest.
I agree with your critique on Capsize - I've limited it to just prone, as it's more useful across the board (extra effective on flying creatures)
I wanted this subclass to work well with ANY of the ranger base classes. RAW, UA Spell-less, UA Revised, and my own "further Revised" ranger, and the latter 2 have advantage on initiative rolls baked in to the base class features.



Gambit is neat, but it's too much too remember. I don't know why you have a line in there about choosing not to flip--I can't see any disadvantage to doing it--and it's probably reasonably solid without the "active" coin-flip benefits, maybe a little on the weak side. Again comparing with the Hunter, though, it doesn't look that far off at that point.

The original reason you could choose to stop flipping is, if you fail once, nothing happens. That was the first bullet point "If you lose a flip, Gambit has no effect whatsoever". However, it

Between your and Molemage's feedback, I've limited the level 7 feature to "choose one", following the hunter model

Man_Over_Game
2019-03-20, 09:28 AM
Interesting early feature. Critical hit refresh is weird but fitting (I'd change "see" to "notice" or "observe" to add a little clarity that it can work with non-visible creatures, or reword to make it clear that it's only visible ones). The AC change is a weird calculation, though, and if you kept it I'd rename it to be its own listed feature.

The other features need rewriting to bring them more in line with 5e standards and just make what they're doing clearer. It's also missing additional ways to spend sorcery points, which usually happens with at least one of an origin's features.


All valid points. I'll probably change Misfortune Feedback to cost Sorcery Points, as messing around with Action Economy is pretty strong.

I agree that the name for the alternate AC calculation needs to be changed, but I'm not sure what to call it. Is "Plot Armor" too 'On the Nose?'. Anyone else have any good ideas for a name for defense through naked luck?

[Edit] I nerfed the class a bit in order to bring it more in-line with other Sorcerer classes.

Being able to spam something like Cone of Cold to Ice Storm to Fireball with the same spell slot is just too good, so I changed Recycled Luck to regain Sorcery Points as if through converting the spell, which is both thematic and a slight nerf (as before it would refund 1 spell slot lower, and the new version is about 1.5 spell slots lower and requires a Bonus Action to convert back into a spell).

I also caused Misfortune Feedback to now cost Sorcery Points, as casting spells as a reaction (basically 2x spells per round) is really powerful. Now you have a choice: Spam Shield (for 12-17 AC with Disadvantage to hit you with Plot Armor), or spend 2 Sorcery Points to cast a spell out of turn, or use Twist of Fate to force a guaranteed success into a failure (or vice-versa). All very powerful, but you can't do it all.

Coincidentally, the nerf on Recycled Luck now fuels the cost for Misfortune Feedback, so everything is a bit more self-contained. Cast extra spells, get refunded back points when they fail, to cast more spells. I only hope that the change to using Sorcery Points doesn't make the class feel more gray and dull than it did before.

MoleMage
2019-03-20, 09:48 AM
More feedback!



Definitely an interesting take on the subclass mechanic. Almost reminds of me of the Starfinder archetypes where they aren't attached to a class. The special benefits for multiclassing, as others have pointed out, does not give an equal benefit across all classes (favoring 1st-level subclasses over 3rd).
Luck Dice: This feature, while cool, definitely favors classes that roll a lot of dice. I suppose that could be considered intentional, but it definitely leans towards rogues, blaster-casters, and greatsword fighters/paladins more than towards barbarians, for example.
Likewise, this subclass favors classes with lots of subclass feature levels. I guess what I'm driving at here is this subclass is not equally valued in the different base classes that can use it.
Lucky Streak is a good feature, no further comments.
Consistent Luck: How does this work with d20 luck dice? Do you reroll both dice if they get a 1? Neither? Specify which is your luck and which your normal before the roll?
Supreme Luck: The method to access this is...difficult. I think the earliest access to Consistent luck is through Cleric (1, 2, 8). Then you need to find another class with three subclass features before level 12. Barbarians, druids, fighters, warlocks, and wizards get their third by level 10. Monks and Rangers are a level behind at 11. Bards, Paladins, Rogues, and Sorcerers are just locked out of this feature entirely.
Luck Never Runs Out: I think a 1d10 would be more interesting here as a feature, since the d20 can only be expended on d20 rolls to grant advantage, while the d10 can be used on anything (including d20). Also, single class bards will never get this feature.

Class features: I started to write out each of these individually, but they mostly boiled down to the same thing: You have a lot of raw power here, but very little in the way of interesting class expansion.
Cleric: Getting a special note, because at 1st level, Clerics can't channel divinity, meaning 1st level Beloved Cleric doesn't really get a feature.
Rogue: Getting a special note, because rogues are all about d6s. Rogues basically have permanent advantage on attack rolls, since advantage grants sneak attack and sneak attack rolls a big chunk of d6s, which grants d6 luck dice, and the cycle continues.



Overall, I feel like this class messes with the expectations of randomness in gameplay too powerfully. It's also almost impossible to balance across the different classes' subclass progressions.




Deck of Cards' value at 1st and 2nd level is great, but it loses value as each spell level is gained, because while a standard warlock knows their spells are always the highest level, the Gambler Warlock gets random spell levels. It's technically possible for a level 20 gambler warlock to draw all 2s and 3s, leaving them with 5 1st level slots as a 20th level character (plus Mystic Arcanums, at least). I would allow removing cards of your choice at certain levels as a way to mitigate this (alternately, you could allow more drawn cards, but that runs into the opposite problem eventually).
Poker Face: Good ribbon. Not much to add.
Pair: Generally upcasting is less valuable than simply using the smaller slot twice. For example, Scorching Ray does 6d6 damage as a second level spell, or 8d6 as a third. Unless I really need an extra 2d6 damage this turn, I'll just cast the spell a second time next turn. The only time I might use this are concentration buffs which add a target each spell level (like Bless, which I could pick up with magic initiate).
Double or Nothing: This is a good feature. Keep in mind that 5e crit mechanics don't actually double damage, but damage dice, but otherwise it works fine.






Cursed Fate is strong. Really strong. Compare 1st or 2nd level debuff spells to see what other characters would be capable of at that level. Disadvantage on all attack rolls/saving throws blows them out of the water. The mechanic for luck dice is alright, but the debuff needs its power reduced.
Stolen Strands is, by contrast, a rather smallish bonus.
Fateful Words. On the one hand, applying that penalty for hours on end is a lot. On the other hand, this will rarely be applied to combat (certainly not in a more reliable fashion than simple cursed fate would allow. I think it's fine, as long as Cursed Fate is reduced in power a little.
Stolen Prophecy. Love it. I would add a line describing mechanically how you resolve that luck (such as by using the creature's proficiency for the questioned action instead of your own), but don't change the flavor of the feature at all.
Prophetic Curse. It's a neat little geas with a twist. Fine as is.






Eye of the Mind Technique is more expensive than it needs to be, but is otherwise a cool feature.
Chance-Dancing: A fun expansion on a core feature. Allowing the forced movement to provoke opportunity attacks is too much though.
Echoing Providence: "the target grants advantage to all attacks" is a little confusing. "all attacks made against the target are made with advantage" would make more sense (to my brain at least).
Manifestation of Serendipity actually could be a little higher cost, considering the level it is gained at and the potential to remove 6 enemy turns.






Concentration proficiency on a bard? Sign me up! It's fine in balance, as that's a very specific saving throw rather than all Con (heck, Sorcerers get this baseline through their all-Con proficiency).
Fortunes Returning Favors: might want to limit the spell to those normally taking 1 action to cast, and specify what "the triggering attack is countered" actually does (does it still deal damage? does it miss?). Otherwise it's fine as it is.
In the Face of Danger's wording is a little hard to follow. I'm not actually sure what it does after reading it. It sounds like you treat half of each disadvantage roll as 18 or its actual result?
Ballad of the Boldest: It's good as is.





All of the domain spells are spot-on. Well done.
I don't get why this is a heavy armor domain, but then again I didn't get it when Storm was a heavy armor domain, so maybe I just don't get domains and armor.
Name Fate: Fine as is.
Call for Aid: It's a good emergency button.
Master of Destiny: An advantage feature with limited uses! I think it's good as it is.

Overall, I feel like every feature mechanically falls into place. However, I would like to see a feature in the middle levels about prophecy. Right now the only feature this class grants that really feels like reading someone's destiny is Omen of Peril (a case could be made for Master of Destiny). By adding a ribbon in the middle that lets you know things about a person's destiny it will feel more complete.

nickl_2000
2019-03-20, 11:37 AM
Feedback time!



First of all, putting the dumb in dumb luck gives you extra credit right there.
It's odd that Fortuitous Strike isn't a rage feature, as other barbarians usually get one at level 3. Otherwise it's fine (in rage, this barbarian is not competing with Frenzy's extra attack or Bear's resist all or Wolf's ally advantage, but it makes up for it by not requiring rage, IMO).
Impact Calibration: Fun little ribbon. I might swap its position with Bumbling Path as 10 is the usual barbarian ribbon level.
Bumbling Path: Nothing really to comment on. It fits, other than being at a level when barbarians usually get a ribbon instead of a combat feature.
Percussive Maintenance: Nice little buff to Impact Calibration.
Fortunate Footing: Honestly this feels a little weak, compared to Ranger's Land's Stride for example.







Sure, I'll try to hand out some feedback on things.

Love the concept. I agree with flipping Bumbling Path to 6 (it isn't that strong, but Fortuitous Strike increases as well), but it does feel a bit weak at 14. Fortunate Footing could be a little better, is really what I'm saying (but don't overload it with features).



Thanks for the feedback. Per both your comments I moved bumbling path to 6th level and impact calibration to 10th. I actually made a specific decision on the level 3 feature for it not to be rage based only. Since there are ribbon and out of combat abilities to use with rage, I wanted to boost the capabilities of the barbarian in combat if they were out of rage options.

I re-worked the level 14 ability name and also added in removing the advantage/disadvantages from blindness.

SleeplessWriter
2019-03-20, 12:30 PM
More feedback!




Cursed Fate is strong. Really strong. Compare 1st or 2nd level debuff spells to see what other characters would be capable of at that level. Disadvantage on all attack rolls/saving throws blows them out of the water. The mechanic for luck dice is alright, but the debuff needs its power reduced.
Stolen Strands is, by contrast, a rather smallish bonus.
Fateful Words. On the one hand, applying that penalty for hours on end is a lot. On the other hand, this will rarely be applied to combat (certainly not in a more reliable fashion than simple cursed fate would allow. I think it's fine, as long as Cursed Fate is reduced in power a little.
Stolen Prophecy. Love it. I would add a line describing mechanically how you resolve that luck (such as by using the creature's proficiency for the questioned action instead of your own), but don't change the flavor of the feature at all.
Prophetic Curse. It's a neat little geas with a twist. Fine as is.






Thanks for the feedback. Changed it to disadvantage on the first roll of the chosen type every round, but added the ability to change your choice on a single target as a bonus action so you can still reliably gain luck dice from the feature.
Should I add a bit more scaling to the luck dice, or are they fine as is?
I didn't think about having a mechanical enforcement of Stolen Prophecy, I was thinking it'd be pretty much as mechanically bound as augury is. Should I change that? I'm not sure how I would, though somehow keying off the other creature's proficiencies is a good suggestion.

Thanks again for the feedback, it's really helpful, and I'll be back later with a little of my own.

Ivellius
2019-03-20, 12:56 PM
Follow-ups to comments!


Just rewrote the fatethief, hopefully it's a bit simpler, and I made the features less combat oriented.

...

Edit: Just noticed that we have thirteen entries. kinda ironic :smallamused:.

It's better, definitely, though I think the uses need tweaking. I'd probably keep you from trying to curse the same creature more than once per long (maybe short?) rest, and the language around uses needs clarifying. "You can use this feature a number of times equal to your Charisma modifier" is the standard wording and would make it clear that it's based on you and not the creature targeted.

I also love the fact that we have 13 entries here, by the way.


Alright, I've moved back toward the original interpretation but split off Omen uses as its own resource (now Wis/LR). It now uses its own charges to negate as well.

Generic Weal and Woe removed once again, and Omens are scaled back up slightly to compensate. Many omens now have a baseline effect and an effect if the druid uses their Reaction, meaning that enemies may be penalized more for a woe omen and allies benefit more from a weal omen, at the cost of the druid's reaction. Fatecaster was restored to consuming the spell slot for the extra spell.

Yeah, this is a lot better. I've forgotten exactly what your original thing was--I think I liked it better other than the "this feature might not do anything" than even this revision, but you definitely put in a lot of work.


All valid points. I'll probably change Misfortune Feedback to cost Sorcery Points, as messing around with Action Economy is pretty strong.

I agree that the name for the alternate AC calculation needs to be changed, but I'm not sure what to call it. Is "Plot Armor" too 'On the Nose?'. Anyone else have any good ideas for a name for defense through naked luck?

...

Coincidentally, the nerf on Recycled Luck now fuels the cost for Misfortune Feedback, so everything is a bit more self-contained. Cast extra spells, get refunded back points when they fail, to cast more spells. I only hope that the change to using Sorcery Points doesn't make the class feel more gray and dull than it did before.

I like "Plotted Armor"--it's not the outright pun but keeps it in place and ties into the concept of things being destined or "plotted," if you will.

I'd have to run math--this is one of the more complex entries--but I definitely think it's in a better place. It feels pretty powerful, but I like that it has a concept around, mechanically, "Sorcerer that controls stuff with reactions."

I personally think tying SP into it makes it more cohesive, as at its heart this is still supposed to be a sorcerer, after all.


Thanks for the feedback. Per both your comments I moved bumbling path to 6th level and impact calibration to 10th. I actually made a specific decision on the level 3 feature for it not to be rage based only. Since there are ribbon and out of combat abilities to use with rage, I wanted to boost the capabilities of the barbarian in combat if they were out of rage options.

I re-worked the level 14 ability name and also added in removing the advantage/disadvantages from blindness.

I think I'd probably change the blindness avoidance to removing the disadvantage on attack rolls / granting advantage, but I dunno.



All of the domain spells are spot-on. Well done.
I don't get why this is a heavy armor domain, but then again I didn't get it when Storm was a heavy armor domain, so maybe I just don't get domains and armor.
Name Fate: Fine as is.
Call for Aid: It's a good emergency button.
Master of Destiny: An advantage feature with limited uses! I think it's good as it is.

Overall, I feel like every feature mechanically falls into place. However, I would like to see a feature in the middle levels about prophecy. Right now the only feature this class grants that really feels like reading someone's destiny is Omen of Peril (a case could be made for Master of Destiny). By adding a ribbon in the middle that lets you know things about a person's destiny it will feel more complete.

The only reason for heavy armor is that most clerics get it, and it's not a "caster" like Arcana or Knowledge (note Divine Strike over Potent Spellcasting). Additionally, Call for Aid encourages you to be in the middle of things. If I pulled heavy armor, I'd either need to add several other skill / tool / language proficiencies a la Knowledge, which didn't seem right, or martial weapons a la Death Domain, which also felt weird. Heavy armor seemed like the best approach.* To be honest, yes, it's weird, and I personally wish there were fewer of them, but I'm trying to calibrate it in line with other cleric options.

To me, the thematic is that the gods basically let you decide what things are supposed to be (whether that's through providence or just a general "shrug" of "you're my empowered servant"), so I feel like the spell list gives enough of the destiny-knowing. I could see adding a rider to Call for Aid as an immediate augury expenditure, though.

* Other considered option: Guidance / Resistance as free cantrips, but most clerics are going to take those anyway, so I feel like the end result is a very "all the cantrips" feeling cleric (given they have so few choices), which is unexciting to me. It also mirrors my "Fate" Domain pretty too closely--I do wonder if you'd like that one better. Its capstone (try to "match" your future) is pretty cool, though a lot more complex than what I have here.

nickl_2000
2019-03-20, 01:01 PM
Follow-ups to comments!
I think I'd probably change the blindness avoidance to removing the disadvantage on attack rolls / granting advantage, but I dunno.


It's phrased as "Additionally, during this time you are immune to all impacts of the blinded condition."

So, technically you are still blinded but you don't get the disadvantage/advantage

Man_Over_Game
2019-03-20, 01:19 PM
Follow-ups to comments!

I like "Plotted Armor"--it's not the outright pun but keeps it in place and ties into the concept of things being destined or "plotted," if you will.

I'd have to run math--this is one of the more complex entries--but I definitely think it's in a better place. It feels pretty powerful, but I like that it has a concept around, mechanically, "Sorcerer that controls stuff with reactions."

I personally think tying SP into it makes it more cohesive, as at its heart this is still supposed to be a sorcerer, after all.



I decided to go with "Fool's Fortune" or "Fool's Faith", but I might just go back to "Plot Armor", as the armor calculation is only as useful as long as long as the DM doesn't throw anything with a high hit bonus at you. That is, the DM effectively chooses how good it truly is.

Your comments solidified the idea to use Sorcery Points. It also forces Sorcerers to really put a lot of emphasis on their Metamagic choices, as they should be having a LOT of Sorcery points to play with, but they have to spend some to make room for more.

Ivellius
2019-03-20, 02:00 PM
It's phrased as "Additionally, during this time you are immune to all impacts of the blinded condition."

So, technically you are still blinded but you don't get the disadvantage/advantage

Yeah, but like...I can just see a player running this and saying, "But I can still see with my eyes closed, right? Isn't that an impact of the blinded condition?" And then the DM has to explain that, and I'm not giving people blindsight for that feature, nuh uh.

nickl_2000
2019-03-20, 02:02 PM
Yeah, but like...I can just see a player running this and saying, "But I can still see with my eyes closed, right? Isn't that an impact of the blinded condition?" And then the DM has to explain that, and I'm not giving people blindsight for that feature, nuh uh.

Alright, fair enough. I will fully explain it. I actually thought about giving blindsight 10ft in the feature, but it seemed to be way to much.

Fnissalot
2019-03-20, 02:12 PM
Y'all are maybe going to convince me making bard college isn't so bad. Well, no, maybe not quite that.

I love the opening stuff here. I do think Fortune's Returning Favors is a bit complex: I'd leave it at "When you are hit by a melee attack, you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against that creature. If you hit, roll damage normally and additionally reduce the attack's damage by the amount rolled. If you miss the attack roll, you gain vulnerability to that instance of damage. Before you roll the attack roll, you may expend a bardic inspiration and add it to your attack roll." If you really want the spell part, there needs to be additional language on it, I think.

In the Face of Danger adds an interesting twist to disadvantage (almost turns it into a kind of advantage...wonder if 19-20 isn't better), and I really like what it does for being frightened, even if that's really situational.

Ballad of the Boldest Fools seems like a weird way to bring its effects in (riding on another feature), but I like it.





Concentration proficiency on a bard? Sign me up! It's fine in balance, as that's a very specific saving throw rather than all Con (heck, Sorcerers get this baseline through their all-Con proficiency).
Fortunes Returning Favors: might want to limit the spell to those normally taking 1 action to cast, and specify what "the triggering attack is countered" actually does (does it still deal damage? does it miss?). Otherwise it's fine as it is.
In the Face of Danger's wording is a little hard to follow. I'm not actually sure what it does after reading it. It sounds like you treat half of each disadvantage roll as 18 or its actual result?
Ballad of the Boldest: It's good as is.




Thanks for the comments! I like the idea of this stupidly heroic bard who fights along the front line and I think the concentration proficiency and the damage reduction from returning favors might make that sort of doable.

Good point with the spell limitation, if it should allow casting a spell, and what counters means. Do you think it would be cleaner/better/more balanced if it either increased your AC against that attack, decreased the damage you took from it or made it automatically miss?

Simply put, In the face of danger turns the disadvantage into advantage if either of the d20s roll a 18, 19 or 20. You don't reroll the dice but you can pick the higher die instead of the lower one. It might be good enough even if you limit it to rolls of 19 and 20. Is this wording more clear? "When rolling an attack roll with disadvantage and you roll a 18, 19 or 20 on either die, you may treat the dice as if you had rolled them with advantage and use the higher result instead of the lower"

MoleMage
2019-03-20, 02:43 PM
Thanks for the comments! I like the idea of this stupidly heroic bard who fights along the front line and I think the concentration proficiency and the damage reduction from returning favors might make that sort of doable.

Good point with the spell limitation, if it should allow casting a spell, and what counters means. Do you think it would be cleaner/better/more balanced if it either increased your AC against that attack, decreased the damage you took from it or made it automatically miss?

Simply put, In the face of danger turns the disadvantage into advantage if either of the d20s roll a 18, 19 or 20. You don't reroll the dice but you can pick the higher die instead of the lower one. It might be good enough even if you limit it to rolls of 19 and 20. Is this wording more clear? "When rolling an attack roll with disadvantage and you roll a 18, 19 or 20 on either die, you may treat the dice as if you had rolled them with advantage and use the higher result instead of the lower"

That wording is way better. I'm not 100% sure on the feature's balance (one of the key benefits of causing disadvantage is that critical hits are drastically less likely to happen), but the wording here leaves no doubt about what is happening anymore.

MoleMage
2019-03-20, 02:47 PM
Follow-ups to comments!

Yeah, this is a lot better. I've forgotten exactly what your original thing was--I think I liked it better other than the "this feature might not do anything" than even this revision, but you definitely put in a lot of work.


I honestly don't remember all the details anymore myself (I forgot to save it), but it worked a lot like this but with Wild Shape uses instead of its own resource. Omen of Sky is the only one I wrote for that version, and it was pretty similar to what it is now (I improved the wording and made complicated bits less complicated while trying to keep the power the same). Oh, and Fatecaster let you choose to grant (dis)advantage for saves against woe omens, and only allowed the spellcast on weal omens. I might put that version of Fatecaster back now that woe omens have saves again.

Ivellius
2019-03-20, 09:26 PM
Alright, fair enough. I will fully explain it. I actually thought about giving blindsight 10ft in the feature, but it seemed to be way to much.

I think blindsight *10* ft. is probably okay. As written it was just vague enough to be blindsight "out to your vision range," which is p. good.


Good point with the spell limitation, if it should allow casting a spell, and what counters means. Do you think it would be cleaner/better/more balanced if it either increased your AC against that attack, decreased the damage you took from it or made it automatically miss?

Simply put, In the face of danger turns the disadvantage into advantage if either of the d20s roll a 18, 19 or 20. You don't reroll the dice but you can pick the higher die instead of the lower one. It might be good enough even if you limit it to rolls of 19 and 20. Is this wording more clear? "When rolling an attack roll with disadvantage and you roll a 18, 19 or 20 on either die, you may treat the dice as if you had rolled them with advantage and use the higher result instead of the lower"

I had my own thoughts on how the "counter" should work (as already suggested), but I felt like your initial wording for In the Face of Danger was cleaner than the rewrite. (It's kind of a weird ability, not sure what precedents for the feature's language already exist in 5e.)

Fnissalot
2019-03-21, 07:06 AM
That wording is way better. I'm not 100% sure on the feature's balance (one of the key benefits of causing disadvantage is that critical hits are drastically less likely to happen), but the wording here leaves no doubt about what is happening anymore.



I had my own thoughts on how the "counter" should work (as already suggested), but I felt like your initial wording for In the Face of Danger was cleaner than the rewrite. (It's kind of a weird ability, not sure what precedents for the feature's language already exist in 5e.)

After done some maths on it, I think it is way too strong. 18-20 puts the average roll on about 9.7 and with the extended critical of scoring critical hits 27% of the time when you have disadvantage. I will probably change it to only trigger on 20s (mean 8.1) with no extended critical effect, or that you just have extended critical hits when you have disadvantage. Either of looks more balanced than it is now. I will look over the way it is written as well when I got the time.

Kingsluger
2019-03-23, 07:44 PM
After reading some more feedback I tossed in a last minute change to add a re-draw and changed the double or nothing feature to be based off of charisma instead of proficiency. Toying with a couple ideas for making it a bit better at higher levels. May add in some DC/attack mod bonus for when you cast a spell using the right suit around level 10 or 14

Oubliette
2019-03-23, 08:05 PM
Based on feedback, I lowered the cost of Eye of the Mind Technique and clarified the wording on Echoing Providence. I would like some more feedback regarding this class, as only two people have given any so far.
Subclass is Way of the Chance Dancer.

SleeplessWriter
2019-03-23, 09:59 PM
Just got a bit of flavor text done for the fatethief, and any last minute feedback would be appreciated.

As for a nit of feedback on other people's stuff, here goes:

Gambler: Nice call on switching double or nothing to key off of charisma, proficiency can get a bit wonky on multiclass, and at that high a level charisma'll be comparable anyway.
I also realized that one way you could prevent people from taking excess short rests to reshuffle their hand is to not reshuffle the whole hand when you rest, but to only draw new cards to fill unexpended slots. That way if the player had an ace of spades before a rest they'd still have it, but they'd also have drawn a five of hearts and a three of diamonds. A full hand would mean they'd keep the same hand until they used a few of the spellslots and took another rest.
It wouldn't stop someone from, say, casting armor of agathys over and over to get rid of the spellsots they don't want and resting until they do, but in either case the DM should be able to easily step in and say no to a player that tries to abuse or sidestep the mechanic. Just something for consideration, I guess.

Chance Dancer: looks good overall. I would ask whether eye of the mind technique can be used to make the same target use one of your rolls more than once a turn. Eye of the mind technique in general, actually, is the most powerful thing about this subclass since it basically gives you a short rest recharge version of portent, with more charges to boot, but it is slightly more limited by the fact that you: one, have to land an attack; two, have to spend a valuable class resource that is competing with the likes of stunning strike; and three, must do so before the beginning of your next turn. Chance dancing is fine, though, it did take me a minute to parse what it was doing, and it looks kinda fun. Echoing Providence is pretty well balanced, and may even be a little over costed on it's ki points since stunning strike also gives advantage against its victim for the same duration on any hit in addition to its other effects all for one ki point. But echoing providence also doesn't have a saving throw, and a weak feature at later levels may help balance out the strong features that get easier to use frequently at later levels. Personally I'd switch the ki costs for eye of the mind technique and echoing providence, and maybe limit eye of the mind technique to hits from flurry of blows, but that's up to you.
The capstone is powerful, but the duration probably balances it out enough that it's not a problem.

Circle of Omens: Looks quite a bit better now that it keys off of wisdom, but I would worry that the whole subclass can only be used two or three times reliably per long rest until the capstone. Maybe if it had more uses, or refreshed on a short rest. But I'd be afraid that a short rest refresh rate would be too much. 2 + Wisdom Modifier would probably work, giving at least 2 reliable uses to a 3rd level druid and at least 3 to a druid with a +5 wisdom modifier, or you could make a table with a number of uses that scale with your druid levels. I'd generally go with the simpler solution, though.


I might add feedback for a few more subclasses later.

Good luck everybody.

MoleMage
2019-03-23, 11:19 PM
Circle of Omens: Looks quite a bit better now that it keys off of wisdom, but I would worry that the whole subclass can only be used two or three times reliably per long rest until the capstone. Maybe if it had more uses, or refreshed on a short rest. But I'd be afraid that a short rest refresh rate would be too much. 2 + Wisdom Modifier would probably work, giving at least 2 reliable uses to a 3rd level druid and at least 3 to a druid with a +5 wisdom modifier, or you could make a table with a number of uses that scale with your druid levels. I'd generally go with the simpler solution, though.


This is a good idea. I'll do the 2+Wis. I didn't want to make it short rest considering it's their third class resource. When it originally keyed off Wild Shape uses it was fine to recharge as normal because it was competing, but with this they have a lot of potential resource expenditure between this, spells, and wild shapes.

SleeplessWriter
2019-03-24, 10:04 AM
Glad I could help, MoleMage.

Okay, here's a few more subclass feedbacks, and I will add at least another one or two to this post later, so check back on it if you haven't seen me give your subclass feedback yet.


College of the Bold: The wording on the bonus proficiencies is a little wonky, maybe replace it with something like this: "When you join the College of the Bold at 3rd level, you gain proficiency in martial weapons and Concentration saving throws to maintain spells." Or even just drop the "to maintain spells" from that to make it smoother. It's not like there's many other things concentration gets used for, and making them easier to keep up wouldn't be too bad either. Fortune's Returning favor is pretty good, essentially giving this subclass a risky extra attack. It fits the theme pretty well in that regard. In the Face of Danger is a little bit too powerful at the moment, in my opinion at least, since it actually increases the chance of a critical hit to 4% of the time. If you reduced the crit range to 18-20 it would be more balanced at 2.25% chance of a critical hit instead of the 0.25% disadvantage usually gives. I suppose it's up to you to decide if it's too powerful as is, but I'd probably go the more conservative route here, especially since it's a bard subclass and not a fighter. Ballad of the Boldest Fools, on the other hand, is mostly fine. The one thing I'd be concerned about is that I don't know how long it actually let's others use Fortune's Returning Favor, so you might want to clarify that.
Pretty good subclass so far, though.

The Destiny Domain: Overall the subclass looks pretty good, and Call for Aid looks like a lot of fun to play with. The one thing I'd be worried about with this subclass would be Name Fate being able to give a -13 or -15 on an attack roll or ability check, but especially on a saving throw against things like hold person or stunning strike, or even charm person and other compulsion type effects. I know the average'll look more like -8 to -10, and just for debuffing attack rolls that would be fine since it is kinda comparable to war domain's channel divinity, but for saving throws that's just too much. Maybe remove the wisdom modifier, or change it to 1d6. just so you can't guarantee encounter ending spells go off all the time.

Ivellius
2019-03-24, 01:32 PM
The Destiny Domain: Overall the subclass looks pretty good, and Call for Aid looks like a lot of fun to play with. The one thing I'd be worried about with this subclass would be Name Fate being able to give a -13 or -15 on an attack roll or ability check, but especially on a saving throw against things like hold person or stunning strike, or even charm person and other compulsion type effects. I know the average'll look more like -8 to -10, and just for debuffing attack rolls that would be fine since it is kinda comparable to war domain's channel divinity, but for saving throws that's just too much. Maybe remove the wisdom modifier, or change it to 1d6. just so you can't guarantee encounter ending spells go off all the time.

Oh, thanks, this is what I needed to hear. You're right that I wasn't thinking about how that would interact with "save-or-suck" options. I don't think I want to make it any more complicated in terms of using different dice...as a placeholder I believe I'm just going to mostly "copy" Cutting Words and modify it to "When a creature that you can see within 30 feet of you makes an attack roll, an ability check, or a damage roll, you can use your Channel Divinity as a reaction to subtract 1d8 + your Wisdom modifier (minimum of 0) from the roll. You can choose to use this feature after the creature makes its roll, but before the DM determines whether the attack roll or ability check succeeds or fails, or before the creature deals its damage." Had I more time I might think of a different tweak (probably in the direction of saving throws), but I want to get something in that I feel like is balanced.

Kingsluger
2019-03-24, 02:41 PM
Gambler: Nice call on switching double or nothing to key off of charisma, proficiency can get a bit wonky on multiclass, and at that high a level charisma'll be comparable anyway.
I also realized that one way you could prevent people from taking excess short rests to reshuffle their hand is to not reshuffle the whole hand when you rest, but to only draw new cards to fill unexpended slots. That way if the player had an ace of spades before a rest they'd still have it, but they'd also have drawn a five of hearts and a three of diamonds. A full hand would mean they'd keep the same hand until they used a few of the spellslots and took another rest.
It wouldn't stop someone from, say, casting armor of agathys over and over to get rid of the spellsots they don't want and resting until they do, but in either case the DM should be able to easily step in and say no to a player that tries to abuse or sidestep the mechanic. Just something for consideration, I guess.

I took your advice here and changed it up so that short rests will merely "fill" your hand while you can choose to draw an entirely new hand on a long rest if you desire. I also made a more major change last minute to allow a warlock to draw level 6 spell slots due to the fall off in effectiveness around this level as pointed out earlier in this thread. The warlock can't cast 6th level spells they may know with that slot so hopefully its not too far a jump in power.



Another one where I really like the core concept. The spell list doesn't make much sense to me, though.


The spell list was chosen less for thematic reasons as to try and pad out some of the spell levels for warlock that lack spells of certain schools. This was mostly for the sake of the card suits and making sure there weren't any times where you would draw a card and not have any decent cards for it.

Fnissalot
2019-03-24, 05:50 PM
College of the Bold: The wording on the bonus proficiencies is a little wonky, maybe replace it with something like this: "When you join the College of the Bold at 3rd level, you gain proficiency in martial weapons and Concentration saving throws to maintain spells." Or even just drop the "to maintain spells" from that to make it smoother. It's not like there's many other things concentration gets used for, and making them easier to keep up wouldn't be too bad either. Fortune's Returning favor is pretty good, essentially giving this subclass a risky extra attack. It fits the theme pretty well in that regard. In the Face of Danger is a little bit too powerful at the moment, in my opinion at least, since it actually increases the chance of a critical hit to 4% of the time. If you reduced the crit range to 18-20 it would be more balanced at 2.25% chance of a critical hit instead of the 0.25% disadvantage usually gives. I suppose it's up to you to decide if it's too powerful as is, but I'd probably go the more conservative route here, especially since it's a bard subclass and not a fighter. Ballad of the Boldest Fools, on the other hand, is mostly fine. The one thing I'd be concerned about is that I don't know how long it actually let's others use Fortune's Returning Favor, so you might want to clarify that.
Pretty good subclass so far, though.

The wording for the concentration save is the same as given by the war caster feat which gives the same proficiency.

I will think about the critical range, if I have time.

And thanks for pointing out the issue with ballad of the boldest fools!

SleeplessWriter
2019-03-24, 10:39 PM
Some more very last minute feedback:

Path of Dumb Luck: The wording is a bit wonky throughout the whole thing (such as saying proficiency bonus x2 instead of twice your proficiency bonus), but I really like the concept. Breaking stuff that can only be fixed by a wish spell is kinda hilarious. Of course, solving the plot by giving the artifact of doom to your drunk barbarian and telling him to fix it over and over until he breaks it would be hilarious too (drunk to give them disadvantage on their checks and balance out the rage's advantage, with one or two rages and twenty or so checks you could break it before breakfast).

Oath of Fortune: All in all looks pretty good, though I would put some sort of saving throw on perfect luck for enemies to avoid losing their weapon and falling prone.

MoleMage
2019-03-25, 11:18 AM
Voting thread is up! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?584137-D-amp-D-Subclass-Contest-VII-Voting-Thread&p=23799948#post23799948)

Also, for any of you who ever checked the first post's class representation table, you may have noticed there was no clear scheme to ranking from one contest to the next. This is because I kept forgetting how I valued number of contests versus number of entries. I have finally written down what I am doing so it will be consistent from here on out.

Man_Over_Game
2019-03-25, 12:11 PM
Here's my final feedback on all the entries:


Chance Dancer (Flavorful, mechanically and tactically interesting, consistent, and it references existing mechanics. I feel like this is something I could actually learn, and I question why it's not already in a book. Well done as my #1 spot!)
Oath of Fortune (I like the idea of having combat Divinities, followed by a non-combat tool, both of which appeal to the subclass concept. It's a bit dull, to be honest, but as I play it out in my head, I feel like it'd play as a Paladin with a solution to any problem that helps others succeed more often, and that's exactly what I'd expect a Guide of Luck to be.)
Beloved of the Dice (A risky gambit that has a lot of interesting mechanics. Unfortunately, it's almost impossible to balance it all, but the work and theory itself is enough for me to bump it up. I also like that the class-specific benefits reference well-known mechanics, which is a major plus in my book.
Longshot Conclave (Well balanced, just not very tactical or adaptive. Randomness doesn't always equal fun. Combined with the fact that ranged combat is already a bit dull (and the additional range will only exacerbate that), and I get this feeling like it could be a bit more tactically interesting early on. The mid-level features are really quite interesting, and I think it's more important to have the "colorful"/interesting features to be available right off the bat.)
College of the Bold (Really flavorful abilities, but I feel like they need some major tuning for them to be worthwhile. For example, a 17-20 with Disadvantage is a 4% chance, which is a big deal for a subclass feature)
The Gambler (Really risky move, and I like that, but I don't think it'd be very balanced, considering each card is a spell slot and not a spell).
Destiny Domain (It's clean, and almost in line with other Clerics, but it's very weak. Early level features are: increase initiative, gain two skills, and use the Bard's Cutting Words feature once per Short Rest. If it was a bit stronger, I'd definitely raise it up).
Lucky Scoundrel (Tactics mostly seem like they'd revolve around metagaming. "Ok, so if I attack and then give you Luck, and you make sure you use it before my turn, I don't ever get a penalty, so just make sure you get rid of it ASAP". Mostly a numbers crunching game, which doesn't add much "color" to the battlefield. I think everything seems balanced, although the wording could be fixed a bit (I'd just have everything revolve around Sneak Attack dice, and losing/gaining them back).
Fatethief (Has a lot of interesting mechanics, but it's all a bit confusing, and all using abilities that are self-contained. That is, it hardly uses existing mechanics and instead creates its own, which creates a lot of lookup to run it properly. This is opposed to duplicating spell effects (like Suggestion), or using existing combat mechanics (like Advantage).)
Circle of Omens (I like the new changes, but I just have a hard time accepting something with a ton of complex, unique lookups. The Battlemaster's maneuvers are all simple and easy to memorize, where yours are not. This is before including the rules needed to properly apply the Omens. Think about how many times someone would have to pause to read a specific table for a specific subclass, on a class that is already a full caster and Wild Shape).
Path of Dumb Luck (As flavorful as the concept is, the first few features are a bit...dull. They don't do much to make the Barbarian feel lucky in real gameplay, and he'll likely resort to doing the same thing he was doing at level 1, except now doing them until level 10. The first subclass feature, in particular, has to be the most "colorful" ability of any subclass. That HAS to be the singular focus for the subclass, in order to draw people into taking it. In this case, it's an extra 1d4 damage.)
Fatekeeper (I feel that most of the abilities are a bit too weak, and a bit too empty. I feel like the strategy would be to curse the boss and....wait? It could use some explosiveness and less passive abilities. Note that the most similar subclass feature to this is the Hexblade's Curse, which has a bunch of abilities, including an increased crit range. This is before mentioning spells as usable as Shield and Wrathful Smite. This is minor: As useful as Bane might be, I think it was a poor choice to include it as an option, as it causes an Invocation to become obsolete. I feel it's important to create new content, not replace what already exists).

nickl_2000
2019-03-25, 06:39 PM
Get your votes in folks. Even if they aren't for mine (but you are welcome to vote twice if it is for mine*)



*disclaimer: poster does not endorse cheating unless it is for rolling stats or the DM rolling behind the screen to prevent a TPK when the PCs weren't stupid

MoleMage
2019-03-27, 02:52 PM
While we're in the voting period, there's a couple things I wanted to ask about, regarding potential special rules in contests.

In general, how do people feel about special rules for specific contests?
These can be simple things, like the "I Read This" contest requiring that you specifically name the source of inspiration, or we could do a theme where they are more complicated, like my question below regarding the potential future Subsystems theme. Are they too interruptive? Do they make things more fun? What sort of restrictions should apply before an additional rule is declared?



Subsystems Online is doing consistently well in the theme voting, now in its third consecutive vote as it carried forward on the runner-up rule. For this contest specifically I had a few optional rules ideas, but I obviously don't want to do anything that makes the contest less fun.

All of these rules options hinge on the idea that this contest requires the creation of a new game system, like Battlemaster Maneuvers or Spellcasting in the core book, which the submitted subclass will use.


Option 1: The contest is done as normal.
Option 2: The contest is done as normal. During the voting round, a bonus round is submitted simultaneously in the same thread where in addition to voting for the best subclasses, votes can be made for the best subsystems.
Option 3: A special rule is introduced, allowing players to submit a second subclass which must use the same subsystem. This subclass is not eligible for the initial round of voting, but a bonus round made up of these second classes exists (possibly combined with a second bonus round for subsystems themselves).
Option 4: A special rule is introduced, allowing players to collaborate in teams of up to 3. Members of a team may each submit their own subclass, which must implement a subsystem that the whole team worked on together. Subclasses are voted on individually, while subsystems receive voting in a bonus round. If a subsystem wins, credit goes to all members of that team.
Option 5: Participants are allowed to use a subsystem created by another participant (EDIT: with permission). This works like option 4, but only the original creator of the subsystem gets credit for victories won by their subsystem.
Option 6: A combination of options 3, 4, and 5. No subsystem is allowed to have more than 3 official creators or more than 3 subclasses created for it, but a creator can submit a second class for it, or further participants can receive permission to create an additional class for it. Subsystems can be made by individuals or teams, and receive a bonus voting round. In this one, secondary classes created by a single person would only receive a bonus round if a minimum number existed (otherwise they serve only to showcase the subsystem).

Ivellius
2019-03-27, 02:57 PM
Option 6 is interesting to me (well, any of the collaborative options), but I think whatever the choice there I'd like to see a vote for best system as well as best overall class option (so also Option 2). If you want my two cents, that is.

Man_Over_Game
2019-03-27, 03:22 PM
Hmm..interesting question, MoleMage!

I think to avoid having a bunch of scattered, arbitrary opinions ("I like this subclass more, but the mechanic is really whack and throws off the whole concept. I like this other mechanic more, but nobody knows how to make a subclass around it. How do I vote?") I think it's best to keep things as organized and focused as possible. I think it'd be fine to have an interim contest to create a unique mechanic that everyone votes on, and then having the following subclass voting thread use that singular mechanic that everyone can agree on. This brings the best of both worlds without any conflicting opinions or judging.

Perhaps if the Subsystems concept is voted as #1, we shelf it to make a mechanics contest first while we run the #2 contest choice at the same time. Once the #2 choice is finished, we go back to the Subsystems Online choice after we've decided on what mechanic everyone likes the most.

I think that'd be the best option.

---------------

On an unrelated topic, what defines whether a concept has already been written up or not?

I mean, if I gave someone a suggestion in some other thread in the forum about an idea for a subclass, but didn't write up any specifics, does that disqualify that particular idea for the contest?

MoleMage
2019-03-27, 07:10 PM
Hmm..interesting question, MoleMage!

I think to avoid having a bunch of scattered, arbitrary opinions ("I like this subclass more, but the mechanic is really whack and throws off the whole concept. I like this other mechanic more, but nobody knows how to make a subclass around it. How do I vote?") I think it's best to keep things as organized and focused as possible. I think it'd be fine to have an interim contest to create a unique mechanic that everyone votes on, and then having the following subclass voting thread use that singular mechanic that everyone can agree on. This brings the best of both worlds without any conflicting opinions or judging.

Perhaps if the Subsystems concept is voted as #1, we shelf it to make a mechanics contest first while we run the #2 contest choice at the same time. Once the #2 choice is finished, we go back to the Subsystems Online choice after we've decided on what mechanic everyone likes the most.

I think that'd be the best option.

---------------

On an unrelated topic, what defines whether a concept has already been written up or not?

I mean, if I gave someone a suggestion in some other thread in the forum about an idea for a subclass, but didn't write up any specifics, does that disqualify that particular idea for the contest?

My primary concern with the interim subsystem designing contest is that if we only pick one subsystem, that really limits the ability of participants to make unique varieties for a given class. While ribbons obviously give some wiggle room, imagine if the whole contest was to, for example, make subclasses that use battlemaster maneuvers. One rogue with battlemaster maneuvers will look much the same as any other rogue with them, and the same will be true to some extent regardless of what the system in question is. However, I would consider doing this where entrants in the subclass system can use any of the top three subsystems (or a similar pool).

As to the rule about whether a concept has been written or not, ideas previously discussed are fine, as long as they weren't given any specific information. There's kind of a pile of sand paradox at play here, so if it comes to an edge case I'd probably put it to a community vote, but if you feel like you can defend the point that a subclass hasn't been made before, you're probably pretty okay.

SleeplessWriter
2019-03-27, 08:37 PM
Option 6 looks good, though in practice it may end up a little more like option 3. Either way, it looks like fun.

Man_Over_Game
2019-03-28, 10:53 AM
My primary concern with the interim subsystem designing contest is that if we only pick one subsystem, that really limits the ability of participants to make unique varieties for a given class. While ribbons obviously give some wiggle room, imagine if the whole contest was to, for example, make subclasses that use battlemaster maneuvers. One rogue with battlemaster maneuvers will look much the same as any other rogue with them, and the same will be true to some extent regardless of what the system in question is. However, I would consider doing this where entrants in the subclass system can use any of the top three subsystems (or a similar pool).

You make a very valid point. I do kinda like the idea of working with others, too (I'm a sucker for teamwork), so I'll just shut up and vote Option 4.

Fnissalot
2019-03-29, 07:32 AM
I would say 3?

I am ok with teamwork as long as I can do a solo submission if I would want to.

MoleMage
2019-03-29, 09:33 AM
I would say 3?

I am ok with teamwork as long as I can do a solo submission if I would want to.

Yeah I'm not going to force people to work in teams. This is neither a classroom nor a corporation. Even if options 4 or 5 are up, they are completely voluntary. It isn't required, it's allowed.

MoleMage
2019-04-03, 08:43 AM
Well, it is just about half a week left on the voting period (which ends this Sunday), so if you haven't voted yet, do so! Remember that if you tie, the first tiebreaker goes to the person who voted.

I also have updated the first post of the voting thread with the current tallies as of my own vote this morning.

Man_Over_Game
2019-04-05, 02:35 PM
Two days left, still missing votes from 4 contestants!

Icecaster, superninja109, Vogie, sengmeng! Where you guys at?!

MoleMage
2019-04-08, 10:52 AM
We never did get votes from Icecaster, superninja109, or sengmeng, but it is time to call the voting nonetheless.



Alright everyone, the voting period has ended and our results are here!

IIIIIN Third place, we have that Druid Circle which can read the upcoming luck as easily as looking at birds. With 6 points, it's MoleMages druidic Circle of Omens.

In Second Place, we have nothing, in keeping with the tiebreaker rules established in the last thread, because...

In First place, we have an official tie! As both Man_Over_Game and Oubliette submitted votes, and as each of them had the same number of 1st-rank votes (3), each of them takes their highly respectable 13 (again with 13?) points into a first place tie! Named in chronological order of submission, our first place subclasses are Man_Over_Game's Fate Sorcery sorcerous origin (Twist Advantage! Cast spells as a Reaction!) and Oubliette's monk Way of the Chance Dancer (Roll for your enemies! Use prescience to shape luck!).

Congratulations to both of our first place winners!

Meanwhile, in the next contest discussion, we had an overwhelming rally around Something Borrowed in the home stretch, so look for that contest shortly. And our runner up this time is The Pen is Mightier than the Sword, so you'll have the chance to vote for it again next time.


I am presently getting the formatting and theme paragraph put together for Contest VIII: Something Borrowed, and will post the link here and in the first post shortly.

Man_Over_Game
2019-04-08, 10:58 AM
Wow, I did not expect that. Talk about lucky!

Well done, Oubliette and everyone else!

And a major thanks to MoleMage. Without you, we'd all be doing something considerably less.

nickl_2000
2019-04-08, 10:59 AM
Congratulations all :)

MoleMage
2019-04-08, 11:00 AM
New contest is up!

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?585284-D-amp-D-Subclass-Contest-VIII-Something-Borrowed&p=23831805#post23831805


EDIT: This group is astounding. It's been what...five hours? and already there's a subclass, a framework, and a concept?

Man_Over_Game
2019-04-08, 04:04 PM
I'm really looking forward to that Skinwalker. I like the idea of someone's subclass giving me the willies, and I hope it doesn't disappoint.

nickl_2000
2019-04-08, 04:21 PM
I'm really looking forward to that Skinwalker. I like the idea of someone's subclass giving me the willies, and I hope it doesn't disappoint.

It really does take some of the guesswork out of what creatures you have seen, when you have had to kill the creature and skinned it to have access to its forms.

theVoidWatches
2019-04-08, 05:08 PM
Thanks guys, I'm looking forward to writing it too (although it'll take a few days to get something more substantial than a rough plan up owing to various things I'm busy with). Looking forward to seeing your stuff as well!

Ivellius
2019-04-08, 10:32 PM
Hm...first impulse is to run a Battlemaster...Monk, probably, although then you'd have another resource competing with Ki...I mainly just want to get one of the old Tome of Battle classes back (so Paladin would work, I guess).

I like the idea of an Aura-based Cleric (borrowing from Paladin), too. I'll need to ponder some more, I think.

Fnissalot
2019-04-09, 12:21 AM
I have too many concepts for this right now; a druid with pact weapon, pretty much anything with a familiar or pet, a rogue with cutting words(an insult sword thing), or a pact magic/domains mix for a third class? All these options...

nickl_2000
2019-04-09, 06:25 AM
I have too many concepts for this right now; a druid with pact weapon, pretty much anything with a familiar or pet, a rogue with cutting words(an insult sword thing), or a pact magic/domains mix for a third class? All these options...

When writing down initial ideas I really got stuck on rage as a mechanic on other classes, a Rage Knight (Fighter), a Rage Mage (Wizard/Sorcerer), and a Rage Monk. I didn't end up going with them, but that really was stuck in my head.

Fnissalot
2019-04-09, 08:41 AM
How close does the borrowed aspect need to be to the original?

nickl_2000
2019-04-09, 08:58 AM
How close does the borrowed aspect need to be to the original?

Not in charge, but mine uses the concept of Ki and 2 stolen abilities from the monk. The rest is unique abilities.

It is at a point that some can take a look and tell me problems.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23832236&postcount=4

Ivellius
2019-04-09, 09:57 AM
How close does the borrowed aspect need to be to the original?

My not-very-helpful response would be "recognizable." Like I would consider Superiority Dice good, even if they don't share maneuvers with the Battlemaster; basically, something with any of the class's unique mechanical options works.


Not in charge, but mine uses the concept of Ki and 2 stolen abilities from the monk. The rest is unique abilities.

It is at a point that some can take a look and tell me problems.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23832236&postcount=4

I'm not sure I'm sold on the concept, honestly: using Wisdom at 3rd level has the potential to change how the class is played, somewhat, though I don't think that's a huge problem. Ki Focused Strike is probably too strong (it scales super-well on the Fighter chassis), and I'd spread out the options on Ki Manipulation. You're right that there's some redundancy between Mental Resilience and Inner Peace--maybe give them proficiency in Charisma saving throws (rare though they are) at 7th instead? Battlefocus is probably fine, given that it requires an action--mechanically it's unusual to spend all ki without regard to player choice, but I get why it's there (it just leads to some "game-y" interactions like "let me spend some points on my turn so I can 'nova' next turn").

nickl_2000
2019-04-09, 10:03 AM
My not-very-helpful response would be "recognizable." Like I would consider Superiority Dice good, even if they don't share maneuvers with the Battlemaster; basically, something with any of the class's unique mechanical options works.



I'm not sure I'm sold on the concept, honestly: using Wisdom at 3rd level has the potential to change how the class is played, somewhat, though I don't think that's a huge problem. Ki Focused Strike is probably too strong (it scales super-well on the Fighter chassis), and I'd spread out the options on Ki Manipulation. You're right that there's some redundancy between Mental Resilience and Inner Peace--maybe give them proficiency in Charisma saving throws (rare though they are) at 7th instead? Battlefocus is probably fine, given that it requires an action--mechanically it's unusual to spend all ki without regard to player choice, but I get why it's there (it just leads to some "game-y" interactions like "let me spend some points on my turn so I can 'nova' next turn").

You actually pointed out a problem with phrasing. My intent here is that the player chooses how much Ki to spend (anywhere between 1 and 10 Ki), and however much they choose to spend is how long the Battlefocus lasts.

I was a little concerned about this class coming online at level 3, but the Shillelagh isn't required that you use it and it's not all that different than an EK in that sense. I dropped the advantage to will saves and instead spread out the level 1 Ki spells and the level 2 Ki spells out to level 7 and level 10 abilities (and dropped the cost on suggestion and calm emotions to add a little power since some was lost.).

I still need to think about the Ki focused strike, it does scale well with a fighter but that was the intent.

Crisis21
2019-04-09, 10:15 AM
...I may have to start being a regular to these contests. By some stroke of fate the current contest is perfect for a subclass I made on a lark two days ago.

Forbidden Pact: Wizard... with a hint of Warlock.

Original Post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?585262-Forbidden-Pact-(PEACH!)&p=23830944)

Contest Entry (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23834040&postcount=5)

MoleMage
2019-04-09, 10:46 AM
How close does the borrowed aspect need to be to the original?

The contest description says that theme or mechanics or both are valid. If you feel like you can defend it, you're probably okay. As a general rule of thumb I won't disqualify for broad interpretations of theme, but the further afield you go, the less likely people are to vote for it.


...I may have to start being a regular to these contests. By some stroke of fate the current contest is perfect for a subclass I made on a lark two days ago.

Forbidden Pact: Wizard... with a hint of Warlock.

Original Post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?585262-Forbidden-Pact-(PEACH!)&p=23830944)

Contest Entry (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23834040&postcount=5)

Per rule 4, subclasses which have been posted outside the contest are not allowed as submissions to the contest. It is the intent of this rule that every entry is created uniquely and specifically for the contest.

Crisis21
2019-04-09, 11:04 AM
Per rule 4, subclasses which have been posted outside the contest are not allowed as submissions to the contest. It is the intent of this rule that every entry is created uniquely and specifically for the contest.

*Is crushed*

There is nothing I can come up with that would have been more perfect for this contest than that combination.

I'll take down my entry and come up with another, but... yeah.


Edit: Okay, the illegal entry has been removed and I have a few ideas for 1/3 caster archetypes for the Fighter. Would you all prefer to see the Green Knight, the Holy Knight, or the Saturday Knight?

Man_Over_Game
2019-04-09, 11:27 AM
*Is crushed*

There is nothing I can come up with that would have been more perfect for this contest than that combination.

I'll take down my entry and come up with another, but... yeah.


Edit: Okay, the illegal entry has been removed and I have a few ideas for 1/3 caster archetypes for the Fighter. Would you all prefer to see the Green Knight, the Holy Knight, or the Saturday Knight?

I personally would like to see the Green Knight. There's not enough support for melee Druid/Monk/Ranger multiclassing as-is.

nickl_2000
2019-04-09, 01:27 PM
Also if anyone is struggling with ideas you can make this for me.

Druid: Circle of Life

Steal some things from Life Domain for a Druid circle and make references to Lion King at the same time. This Druid circle has been on my to make list for months and I have no idea where to go with it.

Crisis21
2019-04-09, 01:41 PM
I personally would like to see the Green Knight. There's not enough support for melee Druid/Monk/Ranger multiclassing as-is.

Well, if you ever wanted a Druid-flavored Rogue, I did one of those a little over a year ago (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?552216-Wild-Trickster-(Druid-flavored-Rogue-archetype)-(PEACH)). Very heavy focus on the wildshape ability, so I may try to stay away from that with a Green Knight.

Man_Over_Game
2019-04-09, 02:01 PM
Also if anyone is struggling with ideas you can make this for me.

Druid: Circle of Life

Steal some things from Life Domain for a Druid circle and make references to Lion King at the same time. This Druid circle has been on my to make list for months and I have no idea where to go with it.


You have Goodberries always prepared and it doesn't count against your number of prepared spells. Allies can consume one of your Goodberries with a Bonus Action.
When you heal things from a spell, they get temporary hitpoints that last for the next minute equal to the Druid's Proficiency. While those THP last, Opportunity Attacks against them have Disadvantage.
When you heal things from a spell, that ally can spend their Reaction to move up to 10 feet.
When you deal damage to a creature with a level 1 or higher spell, that spell heals one ally an amount of HP equal to that spell's level.



Just some thoughts. A Circle of Life Druid would probably help people escape danger, or incentivize killing things. In my concept, I envision it being a "hunt" with highly mobile combat. Allies can use your Goodberries to basically get a pseudo-Disengage+Dash effect and get into ideal positions.

Now instead of Life Clerics taking Goodberry to abuse easy healing, now it's a full on mechanic!

Crisis21
2019-04-09, 02:33 PM
Okay, hot off the presses (or at least my hard drive) just for this contest... It's the Green Knight! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23834723&postcount=5)

Doing the Green Knight was interesting, because I'd previously done a Druid-themed archetype for Rogues (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?552216-Wild-Trickster-(Druid-flavored-Rogue-archetype)-(PEACH)) that focused heavily on wildshaping and I wanted to do something else for the Fighter. I started with the spellcasting of Eldritch Knight and swapped wizard/Intelligence for druid/Wisdom. I then gave them some exploration abilities in the form of bonus proficiencies and limited Expertise at 7th level, plus proficiency in Wisdom saves at 10th, but the best thing was when I saw Shillelagh on the Druid spell list and decided to just go nuts with it. Screw not having a weapon. All of Nature is your weapon!

The 15th level feature was ripped straight from the Paladin's Oath of the Ancients which - not that coincidentally - are also known as green knights. Plus it fit with the tale of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, which I wanted to include a reference to no matter what.

theVoidWatches
2019-04-09, 03:17 PM
So I should note that Shillelagh is a cantrip, not a 1st-level spell as your Shilellagh feature implies.

Fnissalot
2019-04-09, 03:30 PM
The contest description says that theme or mechanics or both are valid. If you feel like you can defend it, you're probably okay. As a general rule of thumb I won't disqualify for broad interpretations of theme, but the further afield you go, the less likely people are to vote for it.


Ok thanks!


Also if anyone is struggling with ideas you can make this for me.

Druid: Circle of Life

Steal some things from Life Domain for a Druid circle and make references to Lion King at the same time. This Druid circle has been on my to make list for months and I have no idea where to go with it.

I love the pun? or what ever this reference is! Hakuna matata!.

Crisis21
2019-04-09, 04:36 PM
So I should note that Shillelagh is a cantrip, not a 1st-level spell as your Shilellagh feature implies.

*smacks self* I'm good at details!

Seriously, I'll update that properly in a bit.

nickl_2000
2019-04-09, 04:42 PM
I love the pun? or what ever this reference is! Hakuna matata!.

I may still work on this myself and see if I like it better than my current entry.

Crisis21
2019-04-09, 11:44 PM
Fixed Shillelagh features for Green Knight. Still can't believe I didn't see Shillelagh was a cantrip. Gave it scaling properties similar to damage cantrips (only increasing die size instead of adding dice because this is a Fighter subclass and that would break everything) and allows the fighter to auto-renew if they're holding the weapon when the spell ends as well as not ending if he lets go of the weapon (meaning it can be used on ranged ammunition like wooden arrows).

18th level feature lets the fighter cast this on more than just wood (no metal though) and on as many weapons as he wants (still 1/round).

Oubliette
2019-04-10, 12:45 AM
How many classes can we pull from at once? I have an idea for a paladin with a few features from across the board, as an Oath to seek continuous improvement and spur others to ever-greater heights as well(Oath of the Paragon is already a homebrew thing on this site, so maybe Oath of Endeavor?). I want to pull some of the Battlemaster supporting features(Superiority dice are great) with different maneuver options, but I also want to give a feature similar to expertise to symbolize the dedication to seeking personal perfection(and aiding others in the same) that this class .is intended to exemplify.

Crisis21
2019-04-10, 01:21 AM
How many classes can we pull from at once? I have an idea for a paladin with a few features from across the board, as an Oath to seek continuous improvement and spur others to ever-greater heights as well(Oath of the Paragon is already a homebrew thing on this site, so maybe Oath of Endeavor?). I want to pull some of the Battlemaster supporting features(Superiority dice are great) with different maneuver options, but I also want to give a feature similar to expertise to symbolize the dedication to seeking personal perfection(and aiding others in the same) that this class .is intended to exemplify.

Relevant quote is relevant:


The contest description says that theme or mechanics or both are valid. If you feel like you can defend it, you're probably okay. As a general rule of thumb I won't disqualify for broad interpretations of theme, but the further afield you go, the less likely people are to vote for it.

Unavenger
2019-04-10, 08:52 AM
*Looks at theme.*

So I now just have to pick a class at random that's begging for some VMC'ing... :smalltongue:

Crisis21
2019-04-10, 09:01 AM
*Looks at theme.*

So I now just have to pick a class at random that's begging for some VMC'ing... :smalltongue:

...but what do Visual Meteorological Conditions have to do with anything?

Vogie
2019-04-10, 09:05 AM
Bust out your Robert Johnson Vinyls, because the Faustian College is up.

I was genuinely surprised no one had mentioned it, so I jumped on the concept.

Borrowed the Pact summoning from Warlocks, a less-powerful version of Hex Warrior (on a subclass without extra attack), Dark one's Own Luck from Fiend patron, and the Crossroads Bargain is a miniWish/super-magical secrets... with the downside of always being an Overchannel (from the Evocation wizard) that can potentially kill you

theVoidWatches
2019-04-10, 09:21 AM
Golden's Instrument's buff strikes me as ridiculously powerful. You get to use your performance skill instead of Strength or Dex for attack and damage. It specifically gives you expertise with Performance. You're specifically replacing the ability modifier, not the entire check. So you'll probably go from

Attack = d20 + Dex + Proficiency (probably an average of +5 to +9)
Damage = 1d8 + Dex (probably around +3)

to

Attack = d20 + (Cha + Proficiency + Proficiency) + Proficiency (probably around +11 to +23)
Damage = 1d8 + (Cha + Proficiency + Proficiency) (probably around +9 to +17)

Your spell save DC isn't quite as badly effected since you're not changing out the ability modifier and you're only adding one extra proficiency modifier, but it'll still be +2 rising to +6, which is very strong.

No, it's not as crazy without extra attack, and if you're only attacking once a turn than the extra damage is vaguely comparable to Sneak Attack. But the boost to attack bonus is ridiculous, and since it scales off of proficiency you can multiclass after hitting level 3.

At the very least, you need to limit this to once per day.

Crisis21
2019-04-10, 09:33 AM
Golden's Instrument's buff strikes me as ridiculously powerful. You get to use your performance skill instead of Strength or Dex for attack and damage. It specifically gives you expertise with Performance. You're specifically replacing the ability modifier, not the entire check. So you'll probably go from

Attack = d20 + Dex + Proficiency (probably an average of +5 to +9)
Damage = 1d8 + Dex (probably around +3)

to

Attack = d20 + (Cha + Proficiency + Proficiency) + Proficiency (probably around +11 to +23)
Damage = 1d8 + (Cha + Proficiency + Proficiency) (probably around +9 to +17)

Your spell save DC isn't quite as badly effected since you're not changing out the ability modifier and you're only adding one extra proficiency modifier, but it'll still be +2 rising to +6, which is very strong.

No, it's not as crazy without extra attack, and if you're only attacking once a turn than the extra damage is vaguely comparable to Sneak Attack. But the boost to attack bonus is ridiculous, and since it scales off of proficiency you can multiclass after hitting level 3.

At the very least, you need to limit this to once per day.

Agreed. There is a reason why 5e doesn't allow expertise with weapons or saving throws.

As for the damage, cap it like Sneak Attack in that you can only get that damage bonus once a round and it could be fine.

Vogie
2019-04-10, 09:43 AM
Attack = d20 + (Cha + Proficiency + Proficiency) + Proficiency (probably around +11 to +23)


Ah, that is the issue - I basically wanted it to be double proficiency, not triple. I'll adjust the stats.

EDIT: What I did was remove expertise, lowering it to proficiency.
This will get back down to "Double proficiency" to attacks, and a Dueling-esque damage bonus (going from +2 to +6)
I'll just add the proficiency back into the saving throw so it is doubled there as well.

It also takes an entire turn to be skipped to turn it on, as opposed to the always-on Hex Warrior

theVoidWatches
2019-04-10, 10:26 AM
Even without automatically giving expertise, Bards can take expertise with performance. Just say that you can use your Performance modifier to calculate attack and damage, instead of having it replace the ability modifier.

Crisis21
2019-04-10, 10:37 AM
I was thinking about the theme of this contest, and I wanted to know what people would most love to see in such an archetype.


Personally, doing the Green Knight made me think on the prevalence of adding a spellcasting archetype to a martial class so I'd be rather interested in seeing the reverse happen: Adding a martial archetype (Fighter, Monk, Barbarian, Rogue) to a primary spellcaster (Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Bard).

theVoidWatches
2019-04-10, 10:53 AM
I think the problem with adding things onto full spellcasters is that 9 levels of spellcasting (particularly for the wizard, who has many of the best spells in the game) really doesn't leave a ton of design space for the subclass to affect much of anything. I mean, look at the various martial subclasses that already exist and how they affect play.

Valor Bards and Swords bards are still have primarily support casters - they can fight well enough to get themselves out of combat and to use combat as their primary damage if they have to, but that's comparing to vicious mockery, the lowest-damage cantrip in the game. A swords bard I played once ended up not really ever attacking unless someone got in close, in which case they would use either Mobile Flourish to get the enemy out of AoO range or Defensive Flourish to boost their AC to escape.

Clerics actually do okay with their martial subclasses, which I think is thanks to having excellent bonus-action spells like spiritual weapon to keep up their casting while fighting.

Mood Druids are kind of broken IMO, but that's a big argument that I'd rather sidle past.

Sorcerers don't really have a martial subclass atm, but you could consider Dragon to be the closest because of its HP/AC boost. Really just makes them a little more survivable though.

Wizards have Bladesingers, but that's basically a wizard with stupidly good AC and Con saves. Unless you throw in Shadow Blade and a SCAGtrip (dropping the SCAGtrip for extra attack when you get there), at which point you're kind of overpowered because high level Shadow Blade is really good.

Crisis21
2019-04-10, 11:15 AM
Okay, so posting that made me seriously think about how to do it, and then I went and made a Fighter-based subclass for the Wizard (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?585456-Wizard-School-of-Combat&p=23836659). It mirrors Eldritch Knight pretty heavily actually and eventually grants proficiencies any Wizard could get by multiclassing to Fighter.

Man_Over_Game
2019-04-10, 11:19 AM
My reviews on what we have so far:

I'm worried that the beast will become TOO tanky, and I'm also worried that the concept won't feel interactive enough, and I'm also worried that the mechanics are too "finicky" for a barbarian.
I am worried that there will be niche circumstances where the CR of a creature doesn't quite match its power level. For example, beasts were incredibly simple, compared to the options of Monstrosities, Fiends, Fey, Elementals, etc. I'd be interested to see how you tackle that. So far, though, it seems fine.
I think this is fairly well balanced, and it does a good job of feeling explicitly like a Monk that's designed to fight in armor and use weapons. My gripe is that it's very...bland? And a bit weak for a subclass.

Consider the fact that a Swashbuckler in Medium Armor has roughly the same AC, deals 2d6 damage on a Sneak Attack, and can perform most of those early benefits without spending a resource.

Additionally, the abilities seem to prioritize both Wisdom (as a caster) and your attack stat (for Focused Strike), likely causing a Fighter to completely ignore one or the other (probably the spells, considering they're all Save-or-Suck spells and they compete with your Dodge action each turn).

I do think that the Ki points should be compatible with Monk's.

All-in-all, I think it's a great start, and it does a wonderful job of feeling like a Monk, without BEING the Monk.
It's an interesting concept, but a bit too odd in its writing.
For example, you add the Shillelagh spell, but then you also explain the entirety of the spell. I'd simplify it into something like this:
You gain the Shillelagh Cantrip, with Wisdom as your spellcasting modifier. It has these changes:

The Duration of the spell changes to Indefinite as long as you hold the weapon.
The Spell does not end when you are no longer holding the weapon, but instead has its Duration changed to 1 minute.
At 5th level, you can target any wooden weapon with Shillelagh, and the weapon affected by Shillelagh gains +1 to its attack and damage rolls. You can also target armor instead of a weapon at this level, granting a +1 AC bonus. Items targeted this way cannot contain any metal.
At 11th level, the weapon affected by Shillelagh deals 1d10 damage, and at 17th level, increases to 1d12.


Additionally, it's hard to determine what exactly is "borrowed", as most of the mechanics listed are entirely unique. Specific builds may rely on Shillelagh, but there is no class or mechanic that does, or does something similar (I suppose the Forge Cleric comes close to what you have).

The rest of it is balanced, but...a bit simple. In the end, you basically hit things with a magic stick, and you continue to do so until level 18 (when you can now wield TWO sticks). It feels a lot like a Champion, in a way.

I know that a lot of people enjoy that playstyle, so I'll try to not let my bias get in the way.

Replacing stats with a skill is a bit finicky. Mostly because the official rules don't have you make a "Performance Check", but rather they have you use an Ability Score Check. It's not Performance, enhanced by your Charisma Modifier. It's your Charisma Modifier, gained proficiency because Performance is relevant in that Check.

The reason this is important is because Performance technically doesn't have a modifier or value. It's a Yes/No question, not a direct number. It's a checkbox that states whether your Proficiency is applied to things that are relevant for Performances.

I think the simplest way of doing the class would be to have it grant you Proficiency on Performance (or Expertise if you already have Proficiency), then allowing you to attack and deal damage with your Charisma Modifier and replace your damage roll with your Proficiency Bonus, then changing your Spell Save DC to add your Proficiency Bonus a second time (effectively Expertise on spellcasting).


The rest of it seems pretty good. Although I wouldn't be strict about keeping it called "Dark One's Luck", as you probably have no qualms calling it "Devil", when the reference is in your flavor text (and WotC probably did). Plus, keeping it with the exact same name as another feature (from the Fiend) would imply that the abilities were the same, and they aren't.

One big concern I have is that the entire class itself isn't quite..."borrowed" enough? Most of the class does have slightly borrowed aspects (Dark One's Luck from Fiend Pact, Crossroads is Wish + Overchannel), but I only know that because I'm a friggin' nerd. This FEELS like a unique subclass, so much so that it's pretty vague to determine what is actually "borrowed".

Crisis21
2019-04-10, 12:25 PM
It's an interesting concept, but a bit too odd in its writing.
For example, you add the Shillelagh spell, but then you also explain the entirety of the spell. I'd simplify it into something like this:
You gain the Shillelagh Cantrip, with Wisdom as your spellcasting modifier. It has these changes:

The Duration of the spell changes to Indefinite as long as you hold the weapon.
The Spell does not end when you are no longer holding the weapon, but instead has its Duration changed to 1 minute.
At 5th level, you can target any wooden weapon with Shillelagh, and the weapon affected by Shillelagh gains +1 to its attack and damage rolls. You can also target armor instead of a weapon at this level, granting a +1 AC bonus. Items targeted this way cannot contain any metal.
At 11th level, the weapon affected by Shillelagh deals 1d10 damage, and at 17th level, increases to 1d12.


Additionally, it's hard to determine what exactly is "borrowed", as most of the mechanics listed are entirely unique. Specific builds may rely on Shillelagh, but there is no class or mechanic that does, or does something similar (I suppose the Forge Cleric comes close to what you have).

The rest of it is balanced, but...a bit simple. In the end, you basically hit things with a magic stick, and you continue to do so until level 18 (when you can now wield TWO sticks). It feels a lot like a Champion, in a way.

I know that a lot of people enjoy that playstyle, so I'll try to not let my bias get in the way.


Thank you for your advice regarding Shillelagh. I'll go make those changes.

I said that I wanted to focus on things other than Wildshape after previously doing a wildshape-heavy subclass, so I did. That essentially meant 1/3 spellcasting progression with the Druid spell list, enhancing a martially-inclined Druid-only cantrip, and granting nature-themed skills.

Also, one of the features is straight-up lifted from the Oath of the Ancients paladin (at the exact same level even), who has a similar theme.

...I just realized I excluded shields in the enhanced Shillelagh description. I should fix that.

nickl_2000
2019-04-10, 12:39 PM
My reviews on what we have so far:

I think this is fairly well balanced, and it does a good job of feeling explicitly like a Monk that's designed to fight in armor and use weapons. My gripe is that it's very...bland? And a bit weak for a subclass.

Consider the fact that a Swashbuckler in Medium Armor has roughly the same AC, deals 2d6 damage on a Sneak Attack, and can perform most of those early benefits without spending a resource.

Additionally, the abilities seem to prioritize both Wisdom (as a caster) and your attack stat (for Focused Strike), likely causing a Fighter to completely ignore one or the other (probably the spells, considering they're all Save-or-Suck spells and they compete with your Dodge action each turn).

I do think that the Ki points should be compatible with Monk's.

All-in-all, I think it's a great start, and it does a wonderful job of feeling like a Monk, without BEING the Monk.



Thanks for the review and the thoughts. I've modified the subclass to add power to it and make it more active overall (hopefully to make it less bland).

Changes:

Changed the total amount of Ki to fighter level instead of half fighter level. Still thinking about half fighter level + wisdom mod instead
Changed focused strike to add the wisdom modifier instead of a die roll to damage to make it more wisdom focused
Increased Ki cost for all spells in Ki Manipulation, also added in the bless spell option
Changed level 10 ability from wisdom prof to a more active ability of giving advantage to yourself and allies within 30 feet as a reaction with Ki cost vs Fear/Charm.
Changed Ki battlefocus to add wisdom modifier to attack rolls instead of damage since wisdom mod to damage is part of focused strike.

Man_Over_Game
2019-04-10, 12:44 PM
Thank you for your advice regarding Shillelagh. I'll go make those changes.

I said that I wanted to focus on things other than Wildshape after previously doing a wildshape-heavy subclass, so I did. That essentially meant 1/3 spellcasting progression with the Druid spell list, enhancing a martially-inclined Druid-only cantrip, and granting nature-themed skills.

Also, one of the features is straight-up lifted from the Oath of the Ancients paladin (at the exact same level even), who has a similar theme.

...I just realized I excluded shields in the enhanced Shillelagh description. I should fix that.

I was an idiot and forgot about spellcasting. Not sure how I pulled that one off.

After realizing how stupid I was in forgetting about that, it actually is a decent concept! It has a lot of similarities to the Eldritch Knight, except as a sustained Druid Bruiser. Nice work!


Thanks for the review and the thoughts. I've modified the subclass to add power to it and make it more active overall (hopefully to make it less bland).

Changes:

Changed the total amount of Ki to fighter level instead of half fighter level. Still thinking about half fighter level + wisdom mod instead
Changed focused strike to add the wisdom modifier instead of a die roll to damage to make it more wisdom focused
Increased Ki cost for all spells in Ki Manipulation, also added in the bless spell option
Changed level 10 ability from wisdom prof to a more active ability of giving advantage to yourself and allies within 30 feet as a reaction with Ki cost vs Fear/Charm.
Changed Ki battlefocus to add wisdom modifier to attack rolls instead of damage since wisdom mod to damage is part of focused strike.


I can definitely dig your changes.

Crisis21
2019-04-10, 12:53 PM
I was an idiot and forgot about spellcasting. Not sure how I pulled that one off.

After realizing how stupid I was in forgetting about that, it actually is a decent concept! It has a lot of similarities to the Eldritch Knight, except as a sustained Druid Bruiser. Nice work!

I've had those kinds of brain farts before. Such as giving that Wizard>Fighter subclass I was referring to earlier an ability similar to Misty Step without considering that Misty Step is on the Wizard spell list. I fixed that too.

Glad to know you like it! The Green Knight was surprisingly fun to do, not the least because of its ties to Arthurian lore.

Regarding the three options I put forth, I'm not particularly surprised no one wanted the Holy Knight (because anything that gets a wizard flavor invariably gets a cleric flavor at least asked for quickly, plus paladins are a thing), but I'm a little surprised no one even asked about the Saturday Knight.

Man_Over_Game
2019-04-10, 12:55 PM
I've had those kinds of brain farts before. Such as giving that Wizard>Fighter subclass I was referring to earlier an ability similar to Misty Step without considering that Misty Step is on the Wizard spell list. I fixed that too.

Glad to know you like it! The Green Knight was surprisingly fun to do, not the least because of its ties to Arthurian lore.

Regarding the three options I put forth, I'm not particularly surprised no one wanted the Holy Knight (because anything that gets a wizard flavor invariably gets a cleric flavor at least asked for quickly, plus paladins are a thing), but I'm a little surprised no one even asked about the Saturday Knight.

Maybe people were afraid to?

I'm thinking it is some kind of Bard-esc party Knight?

Vogie
2019-04-10, 01:50 PM
Even without automatically giving expertise, Bards can take expertise with performance. Just say that you can use your Performance modifier to calculate attack and damage, instead of having it replace the ability modifier.



Replacing stats with a skill is a bit finicky. Mostly because the official rules don't have you make a "Performance Check", but rather they have you use an Ability Score Check. It's not Performance, enhanced by your Charisma Modifier. It's your Charisma Modifier, gained proficiency because Performance is relevant in that Check.

The reason this is important is because Performance technically doesn't have a modifier or value. It's a Yes/No question, not a direct number. It's a checkbox that states whether your Proficiency is applied to things that are relevant for Performances.

I think the simplest way of doing the class would be to have it grant you Proficiency on Performance (or Expertise if you already have Proficiency), then allowing you to attack and deal damage with your Charisma Modifier and replace your damage roll with your Proficiency Bonus, then changing your Spell Save DC to add your Proficiency Bonus a second time (effectively Expertise on spellcasting).

The rest of it seems pretty good. Although I wouldn't be strict about keeping it called "Dark One's Luck", as you probably have no qualms calling it "Devil", when the reference is in your flavor text (and WotC probably did). Plus, keeping it with the exact same name as another feature (from the Fiend) would imply that the abilities were the same, and they aren't.

One big concern I have is that the entire class itself isn't quite..."borrowed" enough? Most of the class does have slightly borrowed aspects (Dark One's Luck from Fiend Pact, Crossroads is Wish + Overchannel), but I only know that because I'm a friggin' nerd. This FEELS like a unique subclass, so much so that it's pretty vague to determine what is actually "borrowed".


Alright, some changes:

Added more flavor to make it more clear it is a pact with a fiend
Broke the Golden instrument feature into 2 parts
"Pact Instrument" now gives you the pact boon instrument, returned Expertise in performance, and provides an additional cantrip. Should make it feel more borrowed.
New "Greatest Song in the World" contains the performance action portion of the Golden Instrument feature
Changed Performance action's attack modifier to "Whenever you attack with a weapon or spell for the duration, you can instead use a Charisma (Performance) check vs the target's AC. If you hit with a weapon attack in this way, you can use your Charisma modifier, instead of Strength or Dexterity, for damage rolls."
Changed Dark One's Luck to Devil's Luck to further differentiate from Dark One's Own Luck.
Clarified that Bardic Inspiration has to be Expended to use the feature.


EDIT: don't want to overpost, so here's a time-dilated response.




First, props for stealing from Charlie Daniel's Band :)

I think Golden Instrument breaks bounded accuracy something fierce. I'm taking 3 levels of Faustian College Bard and take expertise in Performance at level 3. Now as an action at level 3 with my Bow I get Die Roll + Charisma Mod + Proficiency Bonus x 2 to both attack and damage. Since I've chosen a Half-Elf with point buy I'm looking at +7 to hit and damage. Now, by level 13 I'm looking at 5 + 5 + 5 for a +15 on to hit and to damage with multiple attacks before any other modifications. I don't see this character ever missing an attack, they even only have to roll a 10 to hit a Tarrasque. Although in re-reading it I see that it's an action and it only lasts until the end of your next turn, so that does limit it significantly.

It still would be very effective in those spells and attacks that you just need to stick. I could see a lot of times where this class would use this ability, then drop a massively upcast command or a Hold Person. If you wanted to make it even more silly you use this ability to replace the DC, then use metamagic from a Sorc subclass to twin a spell (then quicken a Booming Blade).

Dark One's Luck - I don't see why this needs to be only once per short/long rest. After all, you can already inspire yourself and apply the inspiration roll to your attacks, saving throws, or ability checks.



I've fixed Golden instrument - after the one-action performance, the effect lasts a minute, turns Attack rolls into Performance checks, and only +charisma to damage on weapon attacks.
Bards can't inspire themselves. It specifically states "You can use a bonus action on your turn to choose one creature other than yourself within 60 feet of you who can hear you" in the class feature.

nickl_2000
2019-04-10, 01:53 PM
My Views from what we have seen so far.



I agree with you that this makes that beast to tanky. Take a Wolf at level 6 while you are raging. They get 26 HP, 17 AC, prof in ALL saves, resistance to ALL damage, all attacks are magical, and an ASI. That seems like just to much to me. Also, how does warding bond interact with your barbarian's natural resistance? Is it reduced by both the animal's resistance and then reduced more by yours? One other concern that I have is that the revised ranger beastmaster doesn't have 2 attacks, they have one and the beast has one. You should probably take away the barbarian's second attack for this so it doesn't end up getting silly powerful.

I agree that at level 6 all beast attacks should be magical, although I don't see any reason that your attacks should be. You can get a weapon just like a normal barbarian.

With guardian of the pack, I'm trying to get my head cannon around how this works. You reaction to someone taking damage (so the triggering event is that they have been hurt), if they are hurt badly enough you get to take that damage yourself. I'm just trying to figure out how this works in world, it seems kind of cludgy. From the ability itself, sure it seems fine, especially since it is a once a long rest ability.






I will do more with this once it is solidified more.




First thing is that it needs some flavour text in there. What is a green knight? What makes them special?

For Bonus Profs - you really don't need the "if they contain metal...." line. You can tighten it up by just saying "improvised weapon, containing no metal, and made from only..."

Overall you have A LOT going on at level 3. You get spellcaster/cantrips, enhanced shillelagh, learn Druidic, Prof in nature, Prof in Herbalism, and Prof in improvised weapons. Compare this to the other 1/3 casters. EK get spellcasting and weapon bond, AT gets spellcasting an Mage Hand Legimon (sp?). If you were to have only Enhanced Shillelagh it would be more on par with the design of the other 1/3 casters.

On the subject of Shillelagh, I personally would completely drop the armor/shield enhancement completely, it's an added complexity that I don't see a lot of people who are seeking to use this class focusing on. This weapon is on par or better than any martial weapon with Shillelagh at level 3 (not counting the +1 enhancement) and just gets better after that. That's enough.

Now onto level 7, here is a good time to give Druidic (that's pretty much just fluff) and proficiency/expertise in skills or the kit.


The biggest problem that I see as it is written is Nature's armory. You make all your weapons, armor and shields +2 magical items that last forever. You are looking at a natural AC of 24 not counting anything else that boosts you AC. That's pretty crazy high. Not only that, but given time to prepare you can do the same thing to your allies armor, weapons, and shields.




First, props for stealing from Charlie Daniel's Band :)

I think Golden Instrument breaks bounded accuracy something fierce. I'm taking 3 levels of Faustian College Bard and take expertise in Performance at level 3. Now as an action at level 3 with my Bow I get Die Roll + Charisma Mod + Proficiency Bonus x 2 to both attack and damage. Since I've chosen a Half-Elf with point buy I'm looking at +7 to hit and damage. Now, by level 13 I'm looking at 5 + 5 + 5 for a +15 on to hit and to damage with multiple attacks before any other modifications. I don't see this character ever missing an attack, they even only have to roll a 10 to hit a Tarrasque. Although in re-reading it I see that it's an action and it only lasts until the end of your next turn, so that does limit it significantly.

It still would be very effective in those spells and attacks that you just need to stick. I could see a lot of times where this class would use this ability, then drop a massively upcast command or a Hold Person. If you wanted to make it even more silly you use this ability to replace the DC, then use metamagic from a Sorc subclass to twin a spell (then quicken a Booming Blade).

Dark One's Luck - I don't see why this needs to be only once per short/long rest. After all, you can already inspire yourself and apply the inspiration roll to your attacks, saving throws, or ability checks.

Crisis21
2019-04-10, 02:29 PM
First thing is that it needs some flavour text in there. What is a green knight? What makes them special?

For Bonus Profs - you really don't need the "if they contain metal...." line. You can tighten it up by just saying "improvised weapon, containing no metal, and made from only..."

Overall you have A LOT going on at level 3. You get spellcaster/cantrips, enhanced shillelagh, learn Druidic, Prof in nature, Prof in Herbalism, and Prof in improvised weapons. Compare this to the other 1/3 casters. EK get spellcasting and weapon bond, AT gets spellcasting an Mage Hand Legimon (sp?). If you were to have only Enhanced Shillelagh it would be more on par with the design of the other 1/3 casters.

On the subject of Shillelagh, I personally would completely drop the armor/shield enhancement completely, it's an added complexity that I don't see a lot of people who are seeking to use this class focusing on. This weapon is on par or better than any martial weapon with Shillelagh at level 3 (not counting the +1 enhancement) and just gets better after that. That's enough.

Now onto level 7, here is a good time to give Druidic (that's pretty much just fluff) and proficiency/expertise in skills or the kit.


The biggest problem that I see as it is written is Nature's armory. You make all your weapons, armor and shields +2 magical items that last forever. You are looking at a natural AC of 24 not counting anything else that boosts you AC. That's pretty crazy high. Not only that, but given time to prepare you can do the same thing to your allies armor, weapons, and shields.





Some good suggestions. I'll tighten this up, probably remove the Improvised Weapons thing (a player who really wants that can just pick up Tavern Brawler).

I don't really consider Nature's Armory that powerful considering it's at level 18. By that point, most of your party is probably rocking some epic equipment anyway.

I will definitely start on some fluff for the subclass.

Edit: Done. No more improvised weapons, Herbalism kit only at 3rd. Druidic and option of Nature proficiency at 7th, with potential Expertise. Also took out some old Shillelagh description I forgot to remove on last update.

Fluff is added, painting the Green Knight as a man of two worlds, the world of nature and the world of civilization.


Also, I whipped up a Barbarian-themed archetype for the Sorcerer. Anyone want to see it? (This contest is giving me way too many ideas)

Man_Over_Game
2019-04-10, 02:30 PM
My Views from what we have seen so far.



I agree with you that this makes that beast to tanky. Take a Wolf at level 6 while you are raging. They get 26 HP, 17 AC, prof in ALL saves, resistance to ALL damage, all attacks are magical, and an ASI. That seems like just to much to me. Also, how does warding bond interact with your barbarian's natural resistance? Is it reduced by both the animal's resistance and then reduced more by yours? One other concern that I have is that the revised ranger beastmaster doesn't have 2 attacks, they have one and the beast has one. You should probably take away the barbarian's second attack for this so it doesn't end up getting silly powerful.

I agree that at level 6 all beast attacks should be magical, although I don't see any reason that your attacks should be. You can get a weapon just like a normal barbarian.

With guardian of the pack, I'm trying to get my head cannon around how this works. You reaction to someone taking damage (so the triggering event is that they have been hurt), if they are hurt badly enough you get to take that damage yourself. I'm just trying to figure out how this works in world, it seems kind of cludgy. From the ability itself, sure it seems fine, especially since it is a once a long rest ability.





On the attacks, that's not quite true. The Revised Ranger has its pet make an attack as a Reaction instead of getting Extra Attack. Ranger makes 1 attack and the beast makes 2, my Barbarian makes 2 attacks while his beast makes 1.



As for the Warding Bond mitigation, that is correct. Warding Bond mitigates the caster's damage just the same as any other damage. It is benefited from Heavy Armor Master, Rage, Vulnerabilities, and anything else. In this case, the 100% of the damage the beast takes now becomes 50% to the beast and 50% to the Barbarian, which then the Barbarian mitigates to 25%.

Effectively, damage to the beast ends up being 75% effective against weapons, which is designed to be a pseudo-Rage effect (considering Rage itself mitigates 50%). Consider that the Barbarian has no self-healing outside of hit dice, no Healing Spirit, no Goodberries, and the one resource he uses to heal himself is also the same resource he needs to conjure his Companion. While the beast is a bit tankier, I feel that it SHOULD be in order to compensate for the Barbarian's lack of sustainability.

As for the weapon, I think you're right. Making it only affect the beast should be okay. I was thinking that each Barbarian has some way of dealing with magical resistance, but I realize that's not at all true.

As to Guardian of the Pack, I know it's a bit odd, but consider things like the Shield spell, the Tomb of Levistus Invocation, or one of the Crown/Redemption Paladin damage absorption effects. Using a Reaction to take someone else's damage is possible, as is using a Reaction to prevent a specific, calculated scenario from occurring (as with Shield). In this case, it does both.


I'll keep looking into options for the survivability of the Beast, but I really like Warding Bond as a pseudo-Rage effect. If I can find the right wording, maybe I could have the Barbarian be able to "toggle" Warding Bond off to turn on the beast's magical damage.

Fnissalot
2019-04-10, 02:33 PM
Added my rogue subclass Relic Grifter, my take on how a rogue would do divine magic. They wouldn't be devote and true believers... It is a weird mix between cleric domains, channel divinity and pact magic. In short, you prepare domains (relics) but every domain only gets one spell slot. You can prepare additional domains instead of just getting more spell slots. In practice, this gives them access to a lot of spells but they are very limited in how to use them.

Also, you can destroy a relic and remove your preparation for it to get access to its channel divinity.

I was first thinking that I would just give it access to the domain spell lists straight but I felt a bit cheap so I started writing my own modified versions of the domains for this subclass. I added three so far and will either add more or change back to just take the domain spell list and channel divinity straight from the clerics.

theVoidWatches
2019-04-10, 09:57 PM
Posted my first draft of the skinwalker. It's basically what I planned it would be - they get wild shape (with the modification of needing to have a creature's skin, and having a favored form that they can take whenever), and at level 7 they can take the forms of non-beasts (but only once per dead creature).

Bloodcloud
2019-04-10, 09:58 PM
I added my submission, digging back the geomancer from 3.5 and adapting it to 5e as a sorcerer subclass.

I tried to give abilities that gave either:
-Mobility
-Stealth
-Melee capacity/tankiness
-Perception

Level 18 is an elemental form, to mirror moon druid progression a bit too.

Very open to comments.

Notes: iím a bit unsure of my fluff on the animal abilities, as i want to keep it open but that meakes describing the ability harder.
I recycled and remixed a lot of thing for the elemental forms. Really unsure of my balancing there.

Crisis21
2019-04-10, 10:38 PM
Posted my first draft of the skinwalker. It's basically what I planned it would be - they get wild shape (with the modification of needing to have a creature's skin, and having a favored form that they can take whenever), and at level 7 they can take the forms of non-beasts (but only once per dead creature).

...I am officially tempted to make a serial killer using this subclass as an antagonist.

nickl_2000
2019-04-11, 07:15 AM
First thing I like is that you give beast forms to the Skinwalker whether they have actually seen them in game or not. Although I would re-consider getting them at odd levels, because there will be a chance that the PC will get to level 6 and level 12 and get new CRs but not actually have a form in that CR. I would actually consider giving them a new form automatically at level 3, 6, 7, 9, 11, 12, 15,and 18 (this ends up being 1 less form overall, but it gives an additional form when you hit a new CR or gain a movement ability for the form). This is actually what my DM did in the game I am currently playing, and it worked out really well for the character.

I can see Monstrous form being a major issue in game. From reading it, you can turn into anything you level or lower. That means you can become humanoids and other types that could have special abilities and spell casting. What is the ruling on those? Do you get innate spell casting of a Pixie or other Fey you killed? Also I think the CR level of transformation is rife for problems. Being able to turn into a CR of 1 less than your level even for an hour is pretty darn strong (especially since you don't have the language barrier and intelligence barrier you run into with Polymorph). Can you imagine a level 11 character turning into a Gold Dragon or a Fire Giant? Or a level 7 character becoming a Medusa or Gorgon? You will end up taking over the party most of the time and being able to take on many encounters by yourself unless this is limited a little bit more.


I also think the thousand forms ability should be tossed out and replaced. Alter Self is a concentration spell, and even if you take the natural weapons option you are still better off with using Hunter's mark on a 1d8 weapon (1d10 averages 2 more damage than a 1d8, however 1d8 + 1d6 nets on average 1 more damage than 1d10). As for the aquatic and appearance options, when you need those you still have the spell available to you as a subclass spell so that will cover that. Overall this ability ends up being pretty a meh, especially for a capstone.





As for mechanics, the swindling divinity seems a little wonky. So, at ninth level you have 2 relics. You can destroy one of them to use the channel divinity feature on the relic, that seems fine. The fact that you can't re-create the relic until you have channeled divinity on a different relic seems odd. I don't see the point of that. You have already hurt yourself in the fact that you can no longer cast spells from that relic until you make another, isn't that enough of a penalty on it's own?





This is an interesting class, I think it would made for a very fun class to play from a roleplaying aspect. Especially since you are becoming more bestial as time goes on, yet you are still a sorcerer and your Charisma will continue to increase as time goes on.

In aspect of the beast the Clawed Hands breaks the standard of a gish slightly. Usually for full casters who get a second attack it happens at level 6 (see valor bard, swords bard, and bladesinger). I may also consider making these attacks magical at level 6 (or adding to your level 6 melee ability to make natural attacks magical).

In nature's boon it is pretty standard that flight requires you not wearing heavy armor.

Primal apotheosis - Water - The way this is phrased currently it is slightly abusable. I could move my full movement through a small space, make a spell touch attack or a set of melee attacks and then be forced to flow back through the space until I get back to a place I fit. Technically that is forced movement and therefore wouldn't provoke an AoO. This could be pretty easily be resolved by also adding in that the PC takes damage if they are expelled from a space they don't fit into.
-You can use your reaction to halve the damage from an attack and then you can move up to 30 feet without provoking opportunity attacks.
Make this up to your movement speed instead of 30 feet. That way if someone invested in mobile or something else to increase their speed they gain that advantage. And if they are encumbered or have reduced speed it isn't abusable.


I am a tiny bit concerned about the balance of the combination of Meta-magic and Druid spells (especially the extend option). That being said, I am really not sure what spells would end up being a problem, even after looking. Just something to keep in the back of your mind.



Phew, caught up. Will watch for more and hopefully this time I won't get sick and have to stop like during the last contest and not be able to evaluate.

Bloodcloud
2019-04-11, 09:30 AM
This is an interesting class, I think it would made for a very fun class to play from a roleplaying aspect. Especially since you are becoming more bestial as time goes on, yet you are still a sorcerer and your Charisma will continue to increase as time goes on.

In aspect of the beast the Clawed Hands breaks the standard of a gish slightly. Usually for full casters who get a second attack it happens at level 6 (see valor bard, swords bard, and bladesinger). I may also consider making these attacks magical at level 6 (or adding to your level 6 melee ability to make natural attacks magical).

In nature's boon it is pretty standard that flight requires you not wearing heavy armor.

Primal apotheosis - Water - The way this is phrased currently it is slightly abusable. I could move my full movement through a small space, make a spell touch attack or a set of melee attacks and then be forced to flow back through the space until I get back to a place I fit. Technically that is forced movement and therefore wouldn't provoke an AoO. This could be pretty easily be resolved by also adding in that the PC takes damage if they are expelled from a space they don't fit into.
-You can use your reaction to halve the damage from an attack and then you can move up to 30 feet without provoking opportunity attacks.
Make this up to your movement speed instead of 30 feet. That way if someone invested in mobile or something else to increase their speed they gain that advantage. And if they are encumbered or have reduced speed it isn't abusable.


I am a tiny bit concerned about the balance of the combination of Meta-magic and Druid spells (especially the extend option). That being said, I am really not sure what spells would end up being a problem, even after looking. Just something to keep in the back of your mind.


So, regarding the spell list, I figure Wizard spell list is considered the "strong" one, and divine soul already played with the cleric list without any problem, I figure it should be fine.

Regarding the claws, I wanted it to follow the cantrip structure. It is not quite extra attack, as it does not apply to other weapon attack. Making the claw magic is however, a great idea.

Regarding primal apotheosis, I fully agree this needs more work. I cobbled it togheter a bit fast. Damage when expeled is a great idea.

Regarding the wings, I don't think any of the sorcerer subclass have any restriction on armor with them (and many get them!), so I don't see it as a problem. I'll add draconic verbiage on have an armor/clothe that accomodate them though.

Bloodcloud
2019-04-11, 11:01 AM
Regarding the enlightened warrior... Focused strike is quite strong now! If you combo it with action surge, thats a lot of damage for very little ressource. At level 5, that's easily up to 12 more damage (assuming 16 wisdom), for a single ki point. Polearm master/sentinel might get another 3 out of the opportunity attack. A battlemaster, expanding his four superiority dice, gets an average of 18 damage out of them, and is then completely gassed out.

At 11, it's exploded. Now assuming we maxed strenght and put one more in wisdom. Combine focus and action surge, we are now at 6X4 for 24 damage. Battlemaster, 27.5, and again he is gassed out completely, while the enlightened has only spent a single ressource. He's got 10 more points! and he gets to do more thing than the battlemaster with them!

Fourth attack, second use of action surge, and maxing wisdom makes the enlightened warrior a dpr king, with plenty left for utility, defense and mobility.

theVoidWatches
2019-04-11, 11:02 AM
First thing I like is that you give beast forms to the Skinwalker whether they have actually seen them in game or not. Although I would re-consider getting them at odd levels, because there will be a chance that the PC will get to level 6 and level 12 and get new CRs but not actually have a form in that CR. I would actually consider giving them a new form automatically at level 3, 6, 7, 9, 11, 12, 15,and 18 (this ends up being 1 less form overall, but it gives an additional form when you hit a new CR or gain a movement ability for the form). This is actually what my DM did in the game I am currently playing, and it worked out really well for the character.

I can see Monstrous form being a major issue in game. From reading it, you can turn into anything you level or lower. That means you can become humanoids and other types that could have special abilities and spell casting. What is the ruling on those? Do you get innate spell casting of a Pixie or other Fey you killed? Also I think the CR level of transformation is rife for problems. Being able to turn into a CR of 1 less than your level even for an hour is pretty darn strong (especially since you don't have the language barrier and intelligence barrier you run into with Polymorph). Can you imagine a level 11 character turning into a Gold Dragon or a Fire Giant? Or a level 7 character becoming a Medusa or Gorgon? You will end up taking over the party most of the time and being able to take on many encounters by yourself unless this is limited a little bit more.


I also think the thousand forms ability should be tossed out and replaced. Alter Self is a concentration spell, and even if you take the natural weapons option you are still better off with using Hunter's mark on a 1d8 weapon (1d10 averages 2 more damage than a 1d8, however 1d8 + 1d6 nets on average 1 more damage than 1d10). As for the aquatic and appearance options, when you need those you still have the spell available to you as a subclass spell so that will cover that. Overall this ability ends up being pretty a meh, especially for a capstone.


I see what you mean about the monstrous forms - I should clarify how innate spellcasting and stuff will work. I'm thinking maybe you'll have access to innate abilities (but not abilities like spellcasting generally - only innate spellcasting), but any resources that the creature harvested had expended will remain expended. If it had used a spell slot, that spell slot is gone.
I should also specify that you don't get lair actions.
I'm not sure that the CR is such a problem, but I can limit it to no more than have your level and just a flat one hour timer.

You're right that thousand forms might be a little weak - it was directly pulled from Moon Druids, but I forgot that rangers want their concentration for Hunter's Mark all the time (and also that Alter Self is concentration). What if I also make it not cost your concentration when you use it on yourself? That gives it more of the "I can customize my any form" thing I'm going for.

nickl_2000
2019-04-11, 11:20 AM
I see what you mean about the monstrous forms - I should clarify how innate spellcasting and stuff will work. I'm thinking maybe you'll have access to innate abilities (but not abilities like spellcasting generally - only innate spellcasting), but any resources that the creature harvested had expended will remain expended. If it had used a spell slot, that spell slot is gone.
I should also specify that you don't get lair actions.
I'm not sure that the CR is such a problem, but I can limit it to no more than have your level and just a flat one hour timer.



I don't mind the "if a resource or ability has been used you don't get it" with monstrous forms, but it is going to be a bookkeeping issue. Now, not only do you need to keep track of extra forms, but you also have to keep track of what you do and don't have left. Still, if you are playing this subclass, that is your own problem :smallcool:

You actually don't need to worry about lair actions or legendary actions. The first bullet point under Wildshaping on page 63 of the PHB specificially says that you get no legendary or lair action if the creature you are shaping into has them.

I think that a flat one hour timer does help some, but it would still be a worry to me. Really, you would have to see how it plays on the table and be willing to adjust it on the fly.





You're right that thousand forms might be a little weak - it was directly pulled from Moon Druids, but I forgot that rangers want their concentration for Hunter's Mark all the time (and also that Alter Self is concentration). What if I also make it not cost your concentration when you use it on yourself? That gives it more of the "I can customize my any form" thing I'm going for.


I know it was pulled from the Moon Druids, but frankly it sucks on a Moon Druid too. That being said, Moon Druid have wildshape casting at level 18 and infinite wildshaping at level 20 to more than make up for this ability sucking. A Ranger does not have that, they have Foe Slayer (meh) and Feral Sense (much better than Foe Slayer). Making it non-concentration would help significantly, and frankly I don't see where that could be excessively abused. Other may come up with something though.

Man_Over_Game
2019-04-11, 11:22 AM
It's a bit odd, but I updated the Pack Master to alternate between using Warding Bond or allowing his beast to have magical attacks.

Can anyone read through it real quick and let me know if it makes sense? I think a second pair of eyes would help, since it's a mechanic I don't think I've seen before.

nickl_2000
2019-04-11, 11:24 AM
Regarding the enlightened warrior... Focused strike is quite strong now! If you combo it with action surge, thats a lot of damage for very little ressource. At level 5, that's easily up to 12 more damage (assuming 16 wisdom), for a single ki point. Polearm master/sentinel might get another 3 out of the opportunity attack. A battlemaster, expanding his four superiority dice, gets an average of 18 damage out of them, and is then completely gassed out.

At 11, it's exploded. Now assuming we maxed strenght and put one more in wisdom. Combine focus and action surge, we are now at 6X4 for 24 damage. Battlemaster, 27.5, and again he is gassed out completely, while the enlightened has only spent a single ressource. He's got 10 more points! and he gets to do more thing than the battlemaster with them!

Fourth attack, second use of action surge, and maxing wisdom makes the enlightened warrior a dpr king, with plenty left for utility, defense and mobility.

Okay that is a solid point, although a battlemaster gets more than just damage out of his manuavers whereas this is just flat damage. I was trying to make it more focused on Wisdom to help out the PC in combat, but I will have to re-think it. I'm very open to thoughts on what could replace it, be fun for a fighters, feel monky, and still be sane.

nickl_2000
2019-04-11, 11:31 AM
It's a bit odd, but I updated the Pack Master to alternate between using Warding Bond or allowing his beast to have magical attacks.

Can anyone read through it real quick and let me know if it makes sense? I think a second pair of eyes would help, since it's a mechanic I don't think I've seen before.

I don't see any issue with the way it is worded right now. It makes sense. I would put a but of an explanation in there that you are allowed to activate warding bond while raging since technically you can't cast a spell or concentrate while raging.

Man_Over_Game
2019-04-11, 11:40 AM
I don't see any issue with the way it is worded right now. It makes sense. I would put a but of an explanation in there that you are allowed to activate warding bond while raging since technically you can't cast a spell or concentrate while raging.

The first line does state "You can cast Warding Bond on your Companion at the same time that you Rage, or with a Bonus Action while you are Raging". Since the Pack Master Barbarian subclass is more specific than the Barbarian superclass, the fact that "you can cast Warding Bond [...] while you are Raging" would take precedence over "If you are able to cast spells, you can't cast them or concentrate on them while raging."

Similarly, you normally can't cast Darkness with Sorcery Points, unless you're a Shadow Sorcerer.

I mean, I could try to clear it up, but I think trying to clarify it beyond the regular order of operations might make it seem confusing and wordy.

Bloodcloud
2019-04-11, 12:00 PM
Okay that is a solid point, although a battlemaster gets more than just damage out of his manuavers whereas this is just flat damage. I was trying to make it more focused on Wisdom to help out the PC in combat, but I will have to re-think it. I'm very open to thoughts on what could replace it, be fun for a fighters, feel monky, and still be sane.

Yeah, battlemaster gets a bit more, but the point was that for 1 ki point, you can more or less match the battlemaster total outpout.

Have you considered giving the monk's unarmored defense? A non-armored fighter is definitely missing. Might want to check the kensai's abilities, see if anything could be ported/adapted.

Otherwise, bonus action to add wisdom (or maybe wisdom + something, like trip/push/no reaction) to one attack would be far more in line with existing bonus damage abilities. Fighter multiplies those bonus too easily otherwise. Notice that bladelock cha necrotic to weapon attack is a level 12 feature and paladin perma smite is 11, so past the point it can be combined with fighter's third attack. That's likely intentional.

nickl_2000
2019-04-11, 01:45 PM
Yeah, battlemaster gets a bit more, but the point was that for 1 ki point, you can more or less match the battlemaster total outpout.

Have you considered giving the monk's unarmored defense? A non-armored fighter is definitely missing. Might want to check the kensai's abilities, see if anything could be ported/adapted.

Otherwise, bonus action to add wisdom (or maybe wisdom + something, like trip/push/no reaction) to one attack would be far more in line with existing bonus damage abilities. Fighter multiplies those bonus too easily otherwise. Notice that bladelock cha necrotic to weapon attack is a level 12 feature and paladin perma smite is 11, so past the point it can be combined with fighter's third attack. That's likely intentional.

The unarmored feature is to iconic to a monk in my mind (on par with the unarmed bonus action attack and flurry). I want to make this to still feel like a fighter that has some things like a monk, without subtracting from the uniqueness of the monk. Ironically, the initial 1d4 to weapon attacks was stolen from the Kensei's shot ability.

I actually think I will have it basically be an extra attack like the monk does, but have it be a mental attack that attacks the other persons mind (kind of like the mental shield protects your own).

EDIT: changed it to
Mental Assault - You can spend 1 ki point to mental assault against your opponents mind. Make a spell attack against an opponent. On a successful hit, you overwhelm their mind with synaptic feedback, causing them to have disadvantage on their next attack and take 1d8+wisdom mod psychic damage

Crisis21
2019-04-11, 02:26 PM
The unarmored feature is to iconic to a monk in my mind (on par with the unarmed bonus action attack and flurry). I want to make this to still feel like a fighter that has some things like a monk, without subtracting from the uniqueness of the monk. Ironically, the initial 1d4 to weapon attacks was stolen from the Kensei's shot ability.

I actually think I will have it basically be an extra attack like the monk does, but have it be a mental attack that attacks the other persons mind (kind of like the mental shield protects your own).

EDIT: changed it to
Mental Assault - You can spend 1 ki point to mental assault against your opponents mind. Make a spell attack against an opponent. On a successful hit, you overwhelm their mind with synaptic feedback, causing them to have disadvantage on their next attack and take 1d8+wisdom mod psychic damage

Just a suggestion of something you might do to reference the Monk's unarmored defense without copying it verbatim: Allow the fighter to use their Wisdom modifier instead of their Dexterity modifier when determining AC. Make sure to specify that any limitations that would be applied to Dexterity (such as from most medium armor) will be applied to Wisdom if they do this.