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Bloodcloud
2019-04-11, 02:43 PM
The unarmored feature is to iconic to a monk in my mind (on par with the unarmed bonus action attack and flurry). I want to make this to still feel like a fighter that has some things like a monk, without subtracting from the uniqueness of the monk. Ironically, the initial 1d4 to weapon attacks was stolen from the Kensei's shot ability.

I actually think I will have it basically be an extra attack like the monk does, but have it be a mental attack that attacks the other persons mind (kind of like the mental shield protects your own).

EDIT: changed it to
Mental Assault - You can spend 1 ki point to mental assault against your opponents mind. Make a spell attack against an opponent. On a successful hit, you overwhelm their mind with synaptic feedback, causing them to have disadvantage on their next attack and take 1d8+wisdom mod psychic damage

Well, now it sounds like a psychic warrior more than a monk...

Man_Over_Game
2019-04-11, 02:52 PM
Well, now it sounds like a psychic warrior more than a monk...

I agree on this. You could change it to "When you miss with a melee weapon attack, you can reroll your attack roll by spending your Bonus Action". This is similar to the Monk's Unarmed Strike, but deals less damage in place for more accuracy.

The problem I have with that is that I'd expect a "Monk-like Fighter" to work well with multiclassing into Monk. I'm not sure what the ideal solution would be in this case.

nickl_2000
2019-04-11, 03:00 PM
Well, now it sounds like a psychic warrior more than a monk...


I agree on this. You could change it to "When you miss with a melee weapon attack, you can reroll your attack roll by spending your Bonus Action". This is similar to the Monk's Unarmed Strike, but deals less damage in place for more accuracy.

Alright, if two people are both saying it I guess I need to change that for the theming. I kind of liked that ability, but I can always make a psyonic subclass at some point and re-use it on there.

Fnissalot
2019-04-11, 04:05 PM
As for mechanics, the swindling divinity seems a little wonky. So, at ninth level you have 2 relics. You can destroy one of them to use the channel divinity feature on the relic, that seems fine. The fact that you can't re-create the relic until you have channeled divinity on a different relic seems odd. I don't see the point of that. You have already hurt yourself in the fact that you can no longer cast spells from that relic until you make another, isn't that enough of a penalty on it's own?



Firstly, it is meant to be thematic. It is a mechanical representation of that you con a deity of power and it remains mad at you for a while.

The only limits are how many relics you can prepare/resonate with and that you can not have duplicates of the same relic. Other than that, you are free to create relics. At 9th level, you can 'prepare' 2 relics but you can own more than that. If you use swindling divinity, you destroy a prepared relic that has a spell slot or already has expended it. You will still be able to prepare up to your limit at the next long rest. For example, I might own 10 relics of different types even if I only have 2 prepared. If I use one for Swindle Divinity, I still got 9 others that can be prepared for the next day, and I wouldn't be able to use that relic more that day if it didn't even have its spell slot left. Lastly, a holy symbol is almost no gold cost at all after 9th level.

In practice, it only makes it so there will be one type of relic you lock yourself out from until you do it with another one. In most scenarios, you will have a slightly shorter list of spells to choose from when deciding on what relics to prepare, but you won't be a spell slot short. It also forces you to rotate which spells you have available to you. My experience of playing or Gming druids and clerics is that you rarely rotate which spells you have and this plays against that.

Was it unclear that you can have more relics than you prepare or was the slight reduction of spell list to prepare from the issue?

Fnissalot
2019-04-12, 02:31 AM
Comments and thoughts on stuff!


Super nice theme! I like that you need to wrestle the beast to show it that it should follow you.

I would write the second part of Predatory Tactics as follows : If both you and your Companion are adjacent to the same enemy, you can spend your Bonus Action to have your Companion use the Help action.

A small verbal thing, I am annoyed at the 'and' in this sentence: If you were not Raging, you Rage before taking the damage and without expending a use of Rage. I would either split it up in to sentences or remove the and.


God that is both cool and dark and gritty!

Monstrous Form is a bit weird at the moment. First I think it is still pretty strong and there is a lot of upkeep to it. One way to remove the upkeep would be to just limit any special ability to once per skin. I would say that you either cannot use the creatures spellcasting or that it has enough magic left in it for one spell slot?.

As it is written right now, could you skin and turn into constructs, undead(ghosts?), oozes, swarms, or elementals?

Also, I think as Animalistic smite is written currently could be interpreted to work with monstrous form which I assume is not intended. I could see some of my players argue for it at least. Saying that you need to be transformed into a Beast instead might be a bit clearer?

On a thematic point, smites doesn't feel super thematic to me? Getting more attacks feels more primal in my opinion. I would rather have burning spells let me do an attack as an bonus action and you add the spell level to the attack roll and damage roll?


I think Battlefocus is fine.

At first I thought that you get too many ki points but the spell casting is pretty expensive so I think it is balanced more or less well enough?

Is mental assault an normal attack, action or bonus action?

How long does the advantage last? what is the duration?


Overall I think this is cool but the Shillelagh focus is a bit weird? Thematically, it feels like a mix between druid, fighter and forge cleric.

Since you change the spell as much as you do, I would just rewrite it entirely. As it is written right now, it is just a lot of exceptions that you will need to cross reference. Making it a feature separated from the spell would still be enough to fulfill the contests theme to me.

Second, I would rather have transmutation as one of the magic schools instead of abjuration. In my opinion it has the most iconic druid spells.


Cool theme!

Greatest Song in the World is a bit weird? First you spend 2 turns prepping to get a slight attack buff and a huge spell DC buff for 10 turns? Why not take away the turns of prepping and just make it a 10 turn concentration thing from the point you start it? Also, wouldn't it be easier to just say that you add double your proficiency bonus for your spell save DC?

Lastly, I don't like max Hit point reductions. It would be easier to make it burn your hit dice?


I like the primal animalistic drifts but it would be nice when you choose the drifts at 6th and 14th level to be able to choose from the drift available at earlier levels as well.

It would be cool if you could use a bunch of sorcery points to regain your Primal apotheosis. Also Stone looks weaker than the other 3 elements at a first glance.


It looks good! I would say it seems balanced and such?

The only minor thing I might change is to limit the bonus to damage to a number of targets per spell. Maybe equal to your strength or constitution modifier?

Bloodcloud
2019-04-12, 07:39 AM
Oh rage mage!

I like the concept, but a few comments:
Damage per attack roll runs into the pre-errata dragon sorcerer problem. Scorching ray is the only spell worth casting, and warlock multiclass is damn near mandatory here. Iíd switch for damage once per spell or roll damage twice keep best.
A mean to impose disadvantage on saving throw against your spells somewhere would be fitting. There arenít that many attack roll spells, so advantage on spell attacks is rather limiting.
Iíd consider giving martial weapon and put the limit on heavy armor but not medium.
Level 18, why not allow to spend the point when the save would be failed? Itís a capstone after all

Vogie
2019-04-12, 07:51 AM
Greatest Song in the World is a bit weird? First you spend 2 turns prepping to get a slight attack buff and a huge spell DC buff for 10 turns? Why not take away the turns of prepping and just make it a 10 turn concentration thing from the point you start it? Also, wouldn't it be easier to just say that you add double your proficiency bonus for your spell save DC?

You don't need 2 turns to get it started. You can have the Pact instrument around at all times, and you only have to resummon it if it's gone for some way - just like a Warlock's Pact weapon.

It's just a single turn to start playing the greatest song in the world, and the attack buff and DC buff are the same - while you're correct, it's a flavorable explanation to say "your proficiency is doubled", it's all about the flavor of things... Just like a Barbarian does not "activate a short-term mundane damage resistance, damage boost, and athletic advantage, with a bonus action", they "rage". The mechanic-based flavor is the bard is skipping their turn to use their performance rolls as attacks and spell save DCs... which may or may not be useful in every situation, as we're in an edition where many combat encounters can be less than 4 rounds long.


Lastly, I don't like max Hit point reductions. It would be easier to make it burn your hit dice?

I don't like Max hit point reductions either... but Bards can heal & cast restoration spells on themselves. When a Wizard Overchannels, they have to tax their healer's spell slots to keep their little d6 hit die body alive. Bards have a d8 hit die, and have no such requirements, so the initial 2d12 necrotic damage is not going to be nearly as painful. They could quite easily alternate Bargins and heals until they are blue in the face, Doing both in the same turn if they grab something like Healing Spirit or Aura of Vitality with magical secrets.

I did remember that Greater Restoration will allow you to remove a single effect removing HP reductions (and this feature would generate several), so I have updated the feature to clarify that Crossroad Bargain abilities require a spell slot to be expended, which makes it more wish-esque.

Crisis21
2019-04-12, 07:55 AM
Overall I think this is cool but the Shillelagh focus is a bit weird? Thematically, it feels like a mix between druid, fighter and forge cleric.

Since you change the spell as much as you do, I would just rewrite it entirely. As it is written right now, it is just a lot of exceptions that you will need to cross reference. Making it a feature separated from the spell would still be enough to fulfill the contests theme to me.

Second, I would rather have transmutation as one of the magic schools instead of abjuration. In my opinion it has the most iconic druid spells.



Shillelagh focus is because, as a spell, Shillelagh is most useful for a martial class. Plus because the base cantrip hadn't been given the same kind of progression as most attack cantrips. I could (and formerly did) just rewrite the spell, but a previous reviewer made me aware that posting the changes was both more concise and in keeping with how subclasses are usually written.

Of course many of the most iconic druid spells are Transmutation. Transmutation makes up about half the druid spell list by itself. Evocation/Abjuration (with four exceptions) was the limitation Eldritch Knight imposed and the Druid spell list has enough of those to give a player decent options for a martial character (23 such spells level 4 or lower, of which the player will learn between 9 and 13). Plus Evo/Abj is thematic for a martial character's priorities.

nickl_2000
2019-04-12, 08:13 AM
Comments and thoughts on stuff!



I think Battlefocus is fine.

At first I thought that you get too many ki points but the spell casting is pretty expensive so I think it is balanced more or less well enough?

Is mental assault an normal attack, action or bonus action?

How long does the advantage last? what is the duration?


I actually had the Ki as less initially, and the costs less as well. However, it was suggested that I increase the Ki overall, so I also increased the cost of some of the spells (I doubled the Warrior's Ki, and increased the spell cost by about 50%).

Mental Assault is defunct once again, I'm still re-thinking the base Ki abilities. These have given me all kinds of pain in getting it right.

As for Mental Shield (I think that is what you are referring to), it is a reaction to a charm/fear spell or effect. It is useful for all allies in a 30 foot radius for that one spell/effect. My head cannon on this one is that the Enlightened warrior can project the shield around allies to mentally defend them. However, it is only useful for that one spell/effect. I will try and clarify it somewhat.

Fnissalot
2019-04-12, 09:06 AM
You don't need 2 turns to get it started. You can have the Pact instrument around at all times, and you only have to resummon it if it's gone for some way - just like a Warlock's Pact weapon.

It's just a single turn to start playing the greatest song in the world, and the attack buff and DC buff are the same - while you're correct, it's a flavorable explanation to say "your proficiency is doubled", it's all about the flavor of things... Just like a Barbarian does not "activate a short-term mundane damage resistance, damage boost, and athletic advantage, with a bonus action", they "rage". The mechanic-based flavor is the bard is skipping their turn to use their performance rolls as attacks and spell save DCs... which may or may not be useful in every situation, as we're in an edition where many combat encounters can be less than 4 rounds long.


But the effect starts at the end of your next turn so it won't work the turn after you start it as an action and you cannot cast concentration spells on your that turn since that would end the performance. Maybe change it so the duration starts on the start of your next turn.

On the DC part, since you have expertise in performance skill, isn't the proficiency tripled. Otherwise flavorwise, you are completely right.


Shillelagh focus is because, as a spell, Shillelagh is most useful for a martial class. Plus because the base cantrip hadn't been given the same kind of progression as most attack cantrips. I could (and formerly did) just rewrite the spell, but a previous reviewer made me aware that posting the changes was both more concise and in keeping with how subclasses are usually written.

Of course many of the most iconic druid spells are Transmutation. Transmutation makes up about half the druid spell list by itself. Evocation/Abjuration (with four exceptions) was the limitation Eldritch Knight imposed and the Druid spell list has enough of those to give a player decent options for a martial character (23 such spells level 4 or lower, of which the player will learn between 9 and 13). Plus Evo/Abj is thematic for a martial character's priorities.

I don't have the issue with the focus on shillelagh. In my opinion, I would have implemented it as its own thing, borrowing or taking inspiration from the Forge Domains item improvement or a pact weapon instead of as a spell. Blessing of the forge and Hex Warrior with a pact of the blade are both much more streamlined ways to write it for features. It can still be flavored as Shillelagh or the Blackthorns Blessing or something. As it is right now, I think it is a weird mix between them and I would think it would be tedious to look up all the exceptions and changes to the spell. But, that is my opinion and I guess other people here disagree then =).

But eldritch knight gets to choose from the wizard spell pool and they have more evocation and abjuration spells. Transmutation and evocation for druid is still a shorter list of choices than abjuration and evocation for wizards. While I agree that abjuration is more martial focused generally, I disagree when looking over the druid spell list as only a few of the 9 druid abjuration spells of level 1-4 is worth the while.



Mental Assault is defunct once again, I'm still re-thinking the base Ki abilities. These have given me all kinds of pain in getting it right.

As for Mental Shield (I think that is what you are referring to), it is a reaction to a charm/fear spell or effect. It is useful for all allies in a 30 foot radius for that one spell/effect. My head cannon on this one is that the Enlightened warrior can project the shield around allies to mentally defend them. However, it is only useful for that one spell/effect. I will try and clarify it somewhat.

Yeah, I meant the mental shield. Adding advantage on that save or something would make that clear. =)

MoleMage
2019-04-12, 09:19 AM
Originally I was going to do Wizardlock, but Crisis21's version right before the contest started was basically what I imagined it being (right down to the name).

Then I thought about bringing Warshaper into 5e (as a Fighter/Druid) but we already have two fighter subclasses and three subclasses borrowing from druid.

So now my thoughts are split between:


Rage Monk (Way of Tranquil Fury) based on a Barbarian I once ran in 3.5 (whirling frenzy refluffed as "battle trance" because I wanted to be lawful)
Randomly roll once for the 5 classes I haven't yet made and once for the 12 base classes and make whatever comes up.
Combine one of my homebrew classes from Requilac's Base Class Contest (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?581139-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-VI-Chat-Thread) with something, either as the borrower or the lender. Most likely a Ranger or Rogue subclass that adds Alchemy.


What would you guys like to see from this list? Or are there combinations you want to see made but don't know how to make yourself (preferably for Fighter, Monk, Ranger, Rogue, or Wizard, as I haven't done those in previous contests)?

theVoidWatches
2019-04-12, 09:30 AM
Comments and thoughts on stuff!

God that is both cool and dark and gritty!

Monstrous Form is a bit weird at the moment. First I think it is still pretty strong and there is a lot of upkeep to it. One way to remove the upkeep would be to just limit any special ability to once per skin. I would say that you either cannot use the creatures spellcasting or that it has enough magic left in it for one spell slot?.

As it is written right now, could you skin and turn into constructs, undead(ghosts?), oozes, swarms, or elementals?

Also, I think as Animalistic smite is written currently could be interpreted to work with monstrous form which I assume is not intended. I could see some of my players argue for it at least. Saying that you need to be transformed into a Beast instead might be a bit clearer?

On a thematic point, smites doesn't feel super thematic to me? Getting more attacks feels more primal in my opinion. I would rather have burning spells let me do an attack as an bonus action and you add the spell level to the attack roll and damage roll?

So Monstrous Form requires the creature to have a skin. Constructs, you probably can't turn into (with the exception of a Flesh Golem). Undead in general, yes, ghosts probably not. Oozes, swarms, and elementals, no. I should add a note explaining that.

Animalistic Smite shouldn't work with Monstrous Form. It works while you're transformed with Wild Shape, not while you're transformed with Monstrous Form.

I can see why you don't think it feels thematic, but it's supposed to fall under the shapeshifting theme more than a primal theme. The subclass isn't about getting in touch with your wild side, it's about using animals as fuel for shapechanging. Level 11 comes with a damage boost, for rangers, and this made sense as a way of boosting damage... I guess another possibility could be a more flat +1d8 damage boost all the time while shapechanged, as you improve the natural weapons of your form instead of just using them.

Vogie
2019-04-12, 10:37 AM
But the effect starts at the end of your next turn so it won't work the turn after you start it as an action and you cannot cast concentration spells on your that turn since that would end the performance. Maybe change it so the duration starts on the start of your next turn.

On the DC part, since you have expertise in performance skill, isn't the proficiency tripled. Otherwise flavorwise, you are completely right.


Whoops - You are absolutely right. I've changed the performance to last until the start of the next turn, and removed the accidental triple-proficiency. Everything should be appropriate now.

Crisis21
2019-04-12, 01:00 PM
I don't have the issue with the focus on shillelagh. In my opinion, I would have implemented it as its own thing, borrowing or taking inspiration from the Forge Domains item improvement or a pact weapon instead of as a spell. Blessing of the forge and Hex Warrior with a pact of the blade are both much more streamlined ways to write it for features. It can still be flavored as Shillelagh or the Blackthorns Blessing or something. As it is right now, I think it is a weird mix between them and I would think it would be tedious to look up all the exceptions and changes to the spell. But, that is my opinion and I guess other people here disagree then =).

But eldritch knight gets to choose from the wizard spell pool and they have more evocation and abjuration spells. Transmutation and evocation for druid is still a shorter list of choices than abjuration and evocation for wizards. While I agree that abjuration is more martial focused generally, I disagree when looking over the druid spell list as only a few of the 9 druid abjuration spells of level 1-4 is worth the while.



I'll look up the forge domains to see what you're talking about (I have yet to personally run a cleric, so I'm light on many of the archetypes). I'll also take your advice about the available schools under advisement. I don't want to give them three, so I'll have to consider if I'd rather drop Abjuration of Evocation (possibly abjuration considering your comment) to allow Transmutation.


Originally I was going to do Wizardlock, but Crisis21's version right before the contest started was basically what I imagined it being (right down to the name).


I'd apologize, but I'm honestly not sorry.

theVoidWatches
2019-04-12, 07:42 PM
Not actually part of this contest since we're only allowed one entry, but I just posted an Inspiration Domain for clerics that sort of makes you into a bard, and I'd appreciate any feedback.

Crisis21
2019-04-13, 12:22 AM
Changes Green Knight's spellcasting to favor transmutation spells instead of abjuration. No other changes at this time.

nickl_2000
2019-04-13, 07:40 AM
Alright, I made a few more adjustments, with less overlap with a Monk this will make it better to combine with monk. Also, I made the Ki interchangable between classes.

I dropped the bonus action dodge for Ki (seems to powerful on a fighter) and Focused Strike entirely and added in these instead.

Exploit Weakness - You know that target always have a moment of weakness after being hit and your inner focus allows you to recognize where that weakness exist take advantage of it. You may spend 1 Ki to make an attack as a bonus action after you have damaged an opponent. When you hit with a critical hit, this extra attack is made with advantage.

Something out of nothing - You have learned through long battle that even a missed strike can be turned to your advantage. When you make an attack and miss, you may spend 1 Ki to us it to distract your opponent giving them disadvantage on their next attack. This ability cannot be used on a critical miss.

Crisis21
2019-04-13, 09:11 PM
Question: Would anyone here be interested in a contest thread for 5e Prestige Classes, as detailed here (http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/UA_Rune_Magic_Prestige_Class.pdf)?

Fnissalot
2019-04-14, 04:50 AM
I have updated how I describe the preparation and creation of relics and added a whole bunch of more relics.


Alright, I made a few more adjustments, with less overlap with a Monk this will make it better to combine with monk. Also, I made the Ki interchangable between classes.

I dropped the bonus action dodge for Ki (seems to powerful on a fighter) and Focused Strike entirely and added in these instead.

Exploit Weakness - You know that target always have a moment of weakness after being hit and your inner focus allows you to recognize where that weakness exist take advantage of it. You may spend 1 Ki to make an attack as a bonus action after you have damaged an opponent. When you hit with a critical hit, this extra attack is made with advantage.

Something out of nothing - You have learned through long battle that even a missed strike can be turned to your advantage. When you make an attack and miss, you may spend 1 Ki to us it to distract your opponent giving them disadvantage on their next attack. This ability cannot be used on a critical miss.

The changes look good!

Something out of nothing, I would change "on their next attack" to "on the first attack on their next turn". It is a bit more clear and makes so you only need to keep track of it one round at a time.

nickl_2000
2019-04-14, 05:20 AM
The changes look good!

Something out of nothing, I would change "on their next attack" to "on the first attack on their next turn". It is a bit more clear and makes so you only need to keep track of it one round at a time.

Good call on that. I didn't intend for it to last forever, which it does currently. I made it this instead (copied the wording from Vicious Mockery).

Something out of nothing - You have learned through long battle that even a missed strike can be turned to your advantage. When you make an attack and miss, you may spend 1 Ki to us it to distract your opponent, giving disadvantage on its next attack roll before the end of its next turn.. This ability cannot be used on a critical miss.

Bloodcloud
2019-04-14, 08:20 AM
Question: Would anyone here be interested in a contest thread for 5e Prestige Classes, as detailed here (http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/UA_Rune_Magic_Prestige_Class.pdf)?

I think that UA showed prestige class in 5e made little sense, and iíd leave it at that. Subclass contest, race contest, magic item contest, spell contest, redesign contest, new class contest, they all make more sense to me.

nickl_2000
2019-04-14, 09:16 AM
Question: Would anyone here be interested in a contest thread for 5e Prestige Classes, as detailed here (http://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/UA_Rune_Magic_Prestige_Class.pdf)?

I wouldn't be interested, but that is mostly because I am more comfortable working within a framework of the subclasses (specifically you get these abilities at these levels and there is a standard over what is combat and what is other tier or ribbon). By all means do it is there is interest, but it isn't for me.

I've only ever done one full class, and that took me forever.

SleeplessWriter
2019-04-15, 12:10 PM
Just posted the Hedge Wizard, a more woodsy wizard that uses a few of the ranger's nature themed spells, has a bit of a beefier familiar, smokes a pipe or wears flowers to gain metamagic, and will give anyone cheeky enough to punch them a good thwacking. Still don't know what I want to do with their capstone, I was wondering about maybe giving them something from the druid there, or maybe just leaning into either the beastmaster familiar or the flower power metamagic. Maybe even draw a little something from the barbarian aside from the retaliation-like feature I gave them at 10th level. I'm open to suggestions.

Been a bit busy lately so I might be a little slow to give feedback on other people's stuff for a while.

nickl_2000
2019-04-16, 07:04 AM
PEACHing the new ones that I haven't done yet



Spell Fury
-The damage bonus to spell fury is a little bit abusable with thing that allow you to stack hits (magic missile, scorching ray, etc), but it probably isn't to big of a deal considering that other get things like this as well.
-The damage resistance should be against non-magical weapons. I don't see any reason why this should be a better resistance than the barbarian gets.

For unbreakable will, you may want to mention that this ability must be done before rolling. I can tell that was your intent, but it may avoid a tiny bit of confusion.





Jitterbug - I get that the bonus action dash/disengage/dodge is what you are borrowing from another class, but something about it feels off. It may be that the flavour text is based on how much information you can get in one sitting, or something else I am not sure. I think the first fix would be flavour and see if that helps my feeling. Since you are stealing the action surge at level 14, you could also drop to in favor of something else.

All-Nighter - This seems overpowered to me. You are effectively giving a Wizard 3 more levels of spells at level 6 and it gets even better from there. I just seems like you are giving a wizard way to many leveled spells in a day.





Hedge Magic - Talking about non-cantrip spells known is a little weird on a wizard since they don't know spells like a sorcerer or a bard. They write what they want into their spells books and can prepare whatever they want. The concept here is fine, but I think it needs to be re-phrased to say that they can write it into the book.

Also, barkskin pretty much sucks and there is rarely a call to use it since it is concentration. I would look at one of the other level 3 spells to replace it (Spike Growth, Locate Animals or Plants, Moonbeam, or Animal Messenger). Actually I would probably choose animal messenger if it were me.

Herbalistís Magic - I think this needs to be looked at, re-fluffed, or at least renamed. It seems kind of out of place to me, up until this point you are focused on a Druidic/Natural Wizard, then all the sudden you are taking metamagic from a Sorcerer. It just feels off to me. Land's Strike from Druid Circle of Land seems fitting, as does Nature's Ward. You could also borrow from Ranger if you wanted (favored terrain or Primeval Awareness).

Bloodcloud
2019-04-16, 09:17 AM
Just a few comments on the comment...




Spell Fury
-The damage bonus to spell fury is a little bit abusable with thing that allow you to stack hits (magic missile, scorching ray, etc), but it probably isn't to big of a deal considering that other get things like this as well.


Actually, there are basically no abilities like that ever since the latest round of errata. Bonus to spell damage are all once per spell with the exception of hex AFAIK.



-The damage resistance should be against non-magical weapons. I don't see any reason why this should be a better resistance than the barbarian gets.


Except barabarian don't get the non-magical weapon clause.

Coffee wizard

Not a fan of the coffee theme, feels like more of a D20 modern thing. Level 6 feature is way strong. The borrowing is a bit all over the place, with cunning action and action surge featured without an actual martial theme?


Hedge Wizard

Hedge Magic Agree with Nick here, needs some work on the wording. I do think Barkskin is thematic, and a wizard gets some decent benefit out of it over a Druid, given complete absence or armor profiency, which is worth considering.


Herbalistís Magic I think you are diluting the theme here, and this feel a bit like an OP tack-on. I'd reconsider completely and go for a more nature-theme ability.

nickl_2000
2019-04-16, 09:47 AM
Except barbarian don't get the non-magical weapon clause.

Huh, I don't know why I thought that. Thanks for the correction.




Hedge Magic Agree with Nick here, needs some work on the wording. I do think Barkskin is thematic, and a wizard gets some decent benefit out of it over a Druid, given complete absence or armor profiency, which is worth considering.


Between mage armor and light armor proficiency (class ability) gained at level 2 barkskin just won't be worth the concentration. That being said, I agree that it is thematic, and it's free. So, if you like it, keep it. No harm, no foul.

MoleMage
2019-04-16, 01:19 PM
Way of Tranquil Fury has its first draft up. I'm worried that I've piled too much damage onto the subclass, and Disabling Strike is probably both too strong and too boring (I wanted a way to represent the monk breaking limbs in a sort of brutal pragmatic way but I couldn't come up with appropriate mechanics on the spot, so I'll come back to that in a day or two with a fresh mind and try again), but the theme is about where I wanted it so I'll submit it for feedback now.

I will also try to get feedback up for all submissions tomorrow.

nickl_2000
2019-04-16, 02:07 PM
Way of Tranquil Fury has its first draft up. I'm worried that I've piled too much damage onto the subclass, and Disabling Strike is probably both too strong and too boring (I wanted a way to represent the monk breaking limbs in a sort of brutal pragmatic way but I couldn't come up with appropriate mechanics on the spot, so I'll come back to that in a day or two with a fresh mind and try again), but the theme is about where I wanted it so I'll submit it for feedback now.

I will also try to get feedback up for all submissions tomorrow.



First of all an angry raging monk seems like a misnomer or an oxymoron, so I applaud you for making it and giving it the proper fluff to make it work it looks like it would be a lot of fun to play.

However, your balance is pretty far off in this first draft and it seems like there are some overcomplications. First, the Ki not coming back for until a long rest? It seems overly complicated to me, but it's not impossible to track, so is that is one way to balance sure why not.

At level 3, you are rage and are now doing
1d4+dex+wis (8.5 base, 17 for bonus action hit, or 25.5 damage for a flurry)
At level 5, it gets worse
1d6+dex+wis (10.5 for each attack, so 21 with attack action, 32.5 with bonus action hit, or 44 with flurry).

I think it is just to much compared to all the other martial out there at level 5.
(Rogue 4d6+dex = 18 damage, Fighter Shield 2d8+8 = 19, Fighter two hander 4d6+8 = 22, Barbarian 2 hander 4d6+8+4 = 26).

So, without a feat or anything else, you are out damaging pretty much everyone else. Even if you choose you bonus action to be a dodge, you are nearly at a 2 hander fighter damage and your AC is going to be 17ish with disadvantage on all attacks against you.

Open stance Strike - So this one is interesting, it's definitely a high gain, very high risk venture. I can see it being conditionally very useful, although you need to define when the AoO happens before you attack or after. I think after would be more fitting, but that is just me.

Blade Catching - I like this, but I think you have overdone it. I would drop the damage rider for Ki and have the 1 Ki spent i you reduce it to 0 to disarm. Also, as a side note, what happens with this if you are being attacked with natural weapons?

Everything else seems fine to me.

MoleMage
2019-04-16, 06:08 PM
First of all an angry raging monk seems like a misnomer or an oxymoron, so I applaud you for making it and giving it the proper fluff to make it work it looks like it would be a lot of fun to play.

However, your balance is pretty far off in this first draft and it seems like there are some overcomplications. First, the Ki not coming back for until a long rest? It seems overly complicated to me, but it's not impossible to track, so is that is one way to balance sure why not.

At level 3, you are rage and are now doing
1d4+dex+wis (8.5 base, 17 for bonus action hit, or 25.5 damage for a flurry)
At level 5, it gets worse
1d6+dex+wis (10.5 for each attack, so 21 with attack action, 32.5 with bonus action hit, or 44 with flurry).

I think it is just to much compared to all the other martial out there at level 5.
(Rogue 4d6+dex = 18 damage, Fighter Shield 2d8+8 = 19, Fighter two hander 4d6+8 = 22, Barbarian 2 hander 4d6+8+4 = 26).

So, without a feat or anything else, you are out damaging pretty much everyone else. Even if you choose you bonus action to be a dodge, you are nearly at a 2 hander fighter damage and your AC is going to be 17ish with disadvantage on all attacks against you.

Open stance Strike - So this one is interesting, it's definitely a high gain, very high risk venture. I can see it being conditionally very useful, although you need to define when the AoO happens before you attack or after. I think after would be more fitting, but that is just me.

Blade Catching - I like this, but I think you have overdone it. I would drop the damage rider for Ki and have the 1 Ki spent i you reduce it to 0 to disarm. Also, as a side note, what happens with this if you are being attacked with natural weapons?

Everything else seems fine to me.



I was worried about the damage being too high, but damage boosts made the most sense. I'll definitely pull the damage effect off of Blade Catching (which is just there so that you have at least some built-in counteraction for Open Stance Strike's drawback) and specify that it doesn't work on natural weapons, but I do want to point out that the +Wis to damage on Battle Trance is only for attacks made as part of a bonus action, not all attacks while in a Trance. It does still look a little high even with that in mind, so I will likely dial it back to a static value like the rage it is based on.

The ki not returning is because the benefits of Battle Trance are much higher than other usages of ki (which are usually instant instead of duration), and because Rage is a long-rest feature, but I didn't want to just give monks an additional resource.

Crisis21
2019-04-18, 12:08 PM
So I whipped up a Guerilla Fighter the other night (haven't posted it). Gave it a some Rogue features (including 1/3 Sneak Attack progression) and a couple of Ranger features.

Fnissalot
2019-04-18, 03:43 PM
Heheh, I started looking into a raging bard, the college of rage and rock, or ragnarok for short. Mostly because the play on words was fun and that none of the bard subclasses are so metal...

MoleMage
2019-04-18, 05:36 PM
It's a day later than advertised because yesterday ended up a little more hectic than anticipated, but feedback for everyone!


First off I like the theme. The game could use a couple more (functional) pet classes. Now for feature review.


I think the core pet is fine; which makes sense since it's basically copied from Revised Ranger. Proficiency also good.
Does Savage Bond still require the material component (a pair of platinum rings worth 50gp each)? Does it still have a range of touch (I assume yes)? Finally, you might want to put a special exception to the rule that barbarians can't cast spells while raging, just to appease the rules-lawyers.
Predatory Tactics's second benefit is odd on the class that gets Reckless Attack, but honestly I'm okay with it. Barbarian 10 is supposed to be a niche benefit anyway.
Guardian of the Pack is a good protective feature and optional way to enter rage off turn. How does it work if you are out of rages for the day?



Overall I think the subclass is good, but I'm a little sad there aren't any improvements to the companion itself. It seems like you did it that way to distance it from the Beastmaster itself (which gets nothing but improvements to the animal), but I think a barbarian-oriented animal improvement (such as sharing rage's bonus damage) would be good.



A different twist on the shapeshifting ranger than I am used to seeing, but I approve.


The spells are all on theme, though given the versatility of the rest of the features I'm not sure they are necessary.
Wild Shape: I like that you've given a built-in way to acquire skins.
Monstrous Form: This is great thematically, but I'm worried about it mechanically. First, the resource tracking is a lot compared to other classes. Second, since you become a specific individual, there's a question of how to handle unique traits that the DM has given a creature. For example, if I take the form of a hobgoblin with a special single-use spell granted to members of the Cult of Cultiness, do I get that spell, even though it isn't part of the normal stat block? Third, if I'm turning into an individual, how much of its memory do I have? None, some, or all? Finally, as an extension of 2, what about monsters the DM created for a campaign? There's a balance concern where they may misassign the challenge rating of a creature.
Monstrous Form: Do I have to use the creature's skin right away or can I save it for later? What if I drag its corpse around using gentle repose (gruesome, but well within the bounds of a party that's willing to budge a little on the "good").
Animalistic Smite: Gotta do something with the spell slots. This seems about right (better than Moon Druid's spell slots to heal, but then the ranger doesn't eventually get spellcasting in animal form.
Thousand Forms: My only concern here is that it invalidates the inclusion of alter self in the expanded magic options.


Overall, it's excellent in theme and presentation, but it comes across as pretty fiddly. A lot of that is baggage inherited from Wild Shape though, so I am personally inclined to roll with it (and just make sure that the DM is balancing their monster CRs properly).




Another one with a great theme. I've always been a sucker for the spiritual-minded weapon user, but for the most part games offer only barehanded (sometimes staff) users in that field.


Warrior's Wisdom: Full ki progression seems high. As I read the other features, it seems like you've made a lot of this subclass's ki costs higher than what a straight monk would pay for similar features (other than the level 3 abilities). As a way to discourage multiclassing to get extra ki, I suppose this is a solution, but given how deep into this class you have to go to get the really good ones I think a smaller ki pool and cheaper abilities would also work.
Warrior's Wisdom also doesn't specify that you regain ki on a short rest, which I assume is the case.
Exploit Weakness: Wording is a little odd. I would put the trigger first, something like: "When you damage an opponent with a weapon attack, you may[...]", and the second clause would read better as "If the triggering attack was a critical hit[...]". Balance-wise I'm on the fence with this feature. It has the potential to really exacerbate Sharpshooter/GWM, but it's on theme and has a resource cost.
Something out of Nothing: Critical miss isn't a standard rule. "if the attack roll was a natural 1" would be more in-line with PHB phrasing. I like this as a defensive feature that isn't fully Patient Defense.
Lesser Ki Manipulation: These are all 1st level spells, so I'm not sure why they have different costs here. I get that the utility of something like bless is higher than command, but they are technically valued equally by the game's structure. The cost is also higher than similar monk features (for 2 ki, Way of Shadows gets 2nd level spells, for example).
Mental Shield's cost is a little high for what it does. Charm and fear effects are pretty uncommon and it has no lasting duration.
Greater Ki Manipulation: As with Lesser Ki Manipulation, these are all the same spell level, so it's odd to me that they have different costs. They are also quite expensive, even compared to Way of Four Elements (though Four Elements is probably not a good comparison point for ki costs, as it's all over the place).
Ki Battlefocus: It probably doesn't need to specify remaining ki. It's also arguably the absolute best return on ki investment the subclass gets (invisibility is chump change compared to +wis to damage and AC on the class with the most total ASIs), to the point where after I got this, I would probably never use any other ki-spender besides Exploit Weakness and maybe Something Out of Nothing. With Action Surge 2/SR the action cost is manageable.



Overall, I would cut back the number of ki and the ki costs (especially on the spell-duplicating features). I think you have consistent theme throughout and I think that theme is a good one.




What's this? A third caster that isn't based on Wizard? What blasphemy!
In all seriousness, I think that the fact that the only two third casters are both wizard-based in core was a travesty (when clearly Arcane Trickster should have been Bard).


Spellcasting: Based on Eldritch Knight I assume, so not much to comment on here. I would have gone with Abjuration over Evocation, but I can see Evocation working.
Shillelagh: It's fine (maybe a little strong in the higher tiers), though when it's gained it doesn't do a whole lot for the fighter when it is first gained. Their strength will most likely be higher than their wisdom, and improving a club to 1d8 doesn't do much when they can use a warhammer already. It also isn't clear how it interacts when they let go of it. Can other characters use it? Do they replace its attack and damage with their own spellcasting ability or the fighter's? The damage bonus at 5, 11, and 17 does make it worthwhile but also makes it so that every other option progressively gets pushed out (even a greatsword with great weapon fighting has average damage of ~8.2 compared to the level 17 super-shillelagh's 8.5, or 10.5 with duelist).
Natural Expertise: "You gain Expertise in your chosen proficiencies and add double your proficiency bonus to checks made involving them." is redundant. I would also give the skill proficiency at level 3 alongside Herbalism Kit, then the expertise here as it currently is (getting skill proficiencies past the first level you get your subclass is pretty rare).
Nature's Serenity: Fine as is. Possibly a little strong for level 10.
Undying Sentinel: Timeless Body for fighters, with a little Relentless Rage tacked on for seasoning. I like it and the long rest refresh keeps it in check.
Nature's Armory: I'm okay with every part of it except the multiple objects part. Without an upper limit on items, you could be walking around with permanent +2 weapon, shield, and armor (assuming you can get a suit of non-metal armor), and that weapon does 1d12 as a one-hander. You can even share the benefits by casting it on allies' shields, or leather armor, or making a bone shiv and passing the rogue a +2 dagger that does 1d12 instead of 1d4.



Overall, the class is consistent within a theme, but I feel as though the shillelagh scaling doesn't align with the rest of the power growth (it starts off as a rather minor feature and eventually becomes concerningly powerful).



It only now occurs to me how much the game needs a "selling your soul for talent" subclass. Can't believe I missed that one before.


Pact Instrument: It's good. I'd actually like to see a backport of this onto warlock, though the cantrip would have to be changed in that case so as to differentiate from tomelock.
Greatest Song in the World: I agree with previous reviews that expertise on the bounded accuracy/bounded saving throw model kinda throws everything awry. The activation is also a little hard for me to parse. It seems like you concentrate until the start of your next turn and then get a benefit for a minute (no concentration required beyond the first turn). If the benefit required concentration for the whole minute I think it would be more balanced.
Devil's Luck: I would restrict it to saving throws. College of Lore gets the ability checks in the same fashion (though without a rest limitation) at level 14.
Crossroads Bargain: The versatility is great and I think the drawback keeps it in line. The damage type is mostly redundant (it only ever comes up if you somehow gain a vulnerabillity to necrotic damage), but keeps it on theme.


Poor bards with their three subclass features. I almost want to do a bard re-write to give them a little more subclass diversity. I think you did good with your theme and with your references here. My only concern is the same as you've seen before: Expertise on attacks and saving throw DCs.




Someone's got to steal that divine power, right?


Spellcasting: Okay this is new. It looks like you made some sort of unholy combination of 3.5 and earlier's prepared magic and 5e pact casting. I kinda like it. I don't have a point of comparison for balance but my gut says it's fine.
Terminology Note: Many of your features still refer to resonating with a relic. This seems to have been replaced in the spellcasting feature with having the relic prepared at some point during editing.
Swindling Divinity: The final restriction (cannot recreate the relic until you have used a different Swindle Divinity) seems harsh, as it means there's always one relic you're locked out of after you use the feature once. I would put a time restriction (maybe a week) instead that is bypassed by using the feature again. That way the rogue can come out of downtime at full power while their short term play is similar to what you have here.
Dissonant Prayers and Empty Promises: Besides having entirely too long of a feature name (I kid, I kid), I think that the drawback is perhaps unneeded. It should also clarify whether it means the die result or the total result (die result seems intended, as it would be impossible to trigger on a proficient save otherwise).
Divine Hustle: Besides the use of resonate instead of prepared, at this level the rogue should have 4 total relics prepared, not 2 (so it should read "none" instead of "neither"), and the trigger requirement therefore becomes a little harsh.
Relics: They seem fine. They follow a consistent pattern in number and level of spells granted. I will note that a level 19 Relic Grifter has functionally 32 spells to choose from at the start of the day, which is more than double what other 1/3rd casters get, but since they also give up 25% of their list every time they use one spell I think you're okay.



This is definitely the most mechanically original subclass in the thread so far, and for what it's worth that's a pro in by book. I would recommend a wording pass to make the rest of your features match the changes you made to Spellcasting, and softening the drawbacks on already use-limited features.



I also was a big fan of the geomancer, if it weren't for their tragic spell progression, so I'm happy they got an homage.


Primal Magic: Divine Soul but druid. No changes or comments necessary.




Aspect of the Beast: Gonna break this down a bit more. If I don't mention a drift assume it seemed fine to me.
Cat's Eyes: Darkvision is a standard feature, why not just say "Darkvision to 120 feet"? Missing an apostrophe in 'cat's'.
Beast Senses: A version of this for sight would be cool too.
Hooved Feets: Should be feet.
Clawed Hands: This is the only 1st level drift that scales. I don't think it's too strong, but it does stand out.



Embrace of the Beast: Broken out again.
Natural Armament: Should specify the range of the attack and whether it's a weapon attack or a spell attack. Seems to be intended as a 5ft melee weapon attack, which is fine.
Swiftness of the Prey: The name doesn't fit the description. I would expect Dash instead of hide reading the name.
Predator's Charge: Disengage seems odd and overlaps with Prey. Perhaps a shove attempt instead?
Keen Sense: You've got another odd-man-out in your choice list. As with before its effect is fine but it stands out (in this case, as it doesn't give bonus action options).




Boone of the Beast: Should be Boon (no e). These are all similar so I didn't break them out. Generally, Flight or Swim is the most useful depending on whether you deal with aquatic environs a lot. Burrow is niche but abusable, so I think half speed works there. I would drop swim back to normal speed (water breathing as a rider still makes it attractive, much like Monkey's Limb granting athletics proficiency). Monkey's Limbs is missing the "y", and Fish Gills should not have an apostrophe on gills (either "Fish's Gills" or "Fish Gills" would be fine).




Primal Apotheosis: It's odd that elemental sources didn't come up in the previous features. I would add one or two elemental-based drifts (or rename animal ones if you prefer) to make this seem less isolated. Other than that seems okay (strong but also expensive).
Stone: How long does the difficult terrain last?
Fire: As written, a creature must both start and end their turn there, when your intent seems to be for it to trigger separately for start of turn and end of turn. I would make this just start of turn (entering the space already allows a second trigger).
Wind: What direction are they pushed, and what is the origin of the cone (I assume "away from you" and "you" respectively, but it should be specified in the ability).
Water: What constitutes stopping in a space? (End of turn? Taking an action? Whole turn without moving?) The "move to make an enemy vulnerable" ability could be an active ability as an alternate balance, instead of allowing a save. The Reaction is very strong (uncanny dodge plus disengage plus dash all on one reaction).
All Four: I would aim to give these all the same duration and parallel design (for example, each one gets a passive combat bonus, a passive utility bonus, and an action, bonus action, or reaction ability), then balance the power to the duration instead of the duration to the power. It makes the ability seem more cohesive that way.



Overall, I think you've captured a lot of the over time transformation of the 3.5 Geomancer, but Primal Apotheosis comes out of nowhere after 17 levels of "animal" and I think that it lacks mechanical cohesion (such as Embrace having three bonus action choices and one passive). There were also a few proofreading errors, which I tried to catch on my comment lines but a solid pass specifically for that would be good.



Ah, a fellow user of the "rage but not rage".


Spell Fury: I like it. It is everything you expect from angry spellcasting. My only comment is that given your changes to sorcerer stuff instead of melee stuff, the resistance could change as well (perhaps to "damage from spells" a la Ancients Paladin).
Barbaric Training: Bonus proficiencies and extra health both logical and arguably necessary. It's good where it's at.
Renewed Fury: I wasn't expecting the number of uses to draw on sorcery points but I like it.
Reckless Casting: It forces the Sorcerer into attack-based spells instead of save-based spells. For balance this is fine, but it does leave diversity by the wayside a bit.
Unbreakable Will: This is good. It's probably the cheapest 18th level sorcery point spender but it's also going to come up with greater frequency, and not being able to see if you'd succeed before using it is also good.



Overall, it's elegant and looks balanced to me. Good work.




Interesting because it seems to have borrowed from a multiclass interaction.

Jitterbug: This is strong but not unreasonably so. Disengage particularly is of use to a wizard.
Spell Buzz: With the dash bonus action on jitterbug, the synergy might be too strong. An alternate wording (you can move up to this speed after casting the spell without using up movement, or something along those lines) would prevent the double dip on the speed.
All-Nighter: I assume this means the spell levels. Should be okay from a balance perspective, though personally I don't care for special features based on Proficiency Bonus (even in core).
Buzz Rush: Again, seems to be fine balance wise. Actually could probably have more possible uses and still be okay. As with All-Nighter I personally don't care for Proficiency Bonus special features.
Espresso: It's Action Surge for wizards! Which might be a bit much considering some of their spell options. I'd limit the spells you can use for the additional action (maybe to 5th level or below, since Twinned Spell caps out at 5th level). Otherwise fine.

Overall, this is a subclass that looks balanced, but it also doesn't have a lot of flash on the page.



There's something Pratchett-like about your flavor text that I find enjoyable.


Hedge Craft: A good proficiency + ribbon. Nothing to add.
Hedge Magic: I like that it allows access to druid magic, but only druid magic that fits the narrower theme of the hedge wizard.
Herbalist's Magic: Is there a maximum amount of points you can store? Overall the conversion rates put a damper on this, though I can see a few cases where it would be nice (Extended Barkskin, for one).
Wizard's Wrath: Can you willingly fail your concentration check to trigger this? Intent seems to be not.



You're still missing a 14th level feature. I like the theme and the flavor text, and the features all seem to be in line except Herbalist's Magic which seems too pricey to be generally useful.




Would you look at that, a bardbarian. Is this inspired by the Pathfinder hybrid class in any way?

Poet of the Past: The skills seem appropriate. One has to wonder how the barbarian got proficiency in either skill baseline, but I guess background could be something else.
Maker of Legends: Bardic Inspiration with a smaller die, different usable checks, and rage-only, if I read it right. Seems on theme. Might be a little too restrictive considering it's not a primary stat and it never improves to short rest. I would increase the number (maybe Cha mod per rage instead of per long rest?).
Flowing Rage: I assume the benefits of rage are the specific bullet points of the rage feature? If they gain the damage bonus, do they use the barbarian's level or +2? Also, the three bullet points are not equally valuable, but that's not as much of an issue as they are all situationally valuable.
Song of the Seven Thunders: The usage could use more clarity. Is it an action? An Action only on the turn you rage? An action any time while raging? Something else? Fortitude save should be Constitution save, and I assume the damage type is supposed to be thunder damage. Also, the range breakdown is cool but 5e tends to prefer simpler calculations (maybe two range categories instead of 5).
Song of True Rage: Fatigued isn't a thing in 5e. You could recreate the effects of it by giving specific penalties, though. Is entering the rage at all voluntary? As written, entering it is mandatory, meaning you always spend at least one round in it (and therefor one round penalized) and that would also remove concentration effects if a caster used it.

Overall, I think you're on the right track. Song of Seven Thunders could be written in a simpler fashion and I think its inspiration dice are too sparse for a core feature. It could also use a proofreading pass, as there are a lot of uncapitalized sentence starters and some of the sentences are a little difficult to read.

theVoidWatches
2019-04-18, 07:34 PM
It's a day later than advertised because yesterday ended up a little more hectic than anticipated, but feedback for everyone!

The Skinwalker
A different twist on the shapeshifting ranger than I am used to seeing, but I approve.


The spells are all on theme, though given the versatility of the rest of the features I'm not sure they are necessary.
Wild Shape: I like that you've given a built-in way to acquire skins.
Monstrous Form: This is great thematically, but I'm worried about it mechanically. First, the resource tracking is a lot compared to other classes. Second, since you become a specific individual, there's a question of how to handle unique traits that the DM has given a creature. For example, if I take the form of a hobgoblin with a special single-use spell granted to members of the Cult of Cultiness, do I get that spell, even though it isn't part of the normal stat block? Third, if I'm turning into an individual, how much of its memory do I have? None, some, or all? Finally, as an extension of 2, what about monsters the DM created for a campaign? There's a balance concern where they may misassign the challenge rating of a creature.
Monstrous Form: Do I have to use the creature's skin right away or can I save it for later? What if I drag its corpse around using gentle repose (gruesome, but well within the bounds of a party that's willing to budge a little on the "good").
Animalistic Smite: Gotta do something with the spell slots. This seems about right (better than Moon Druid's spell slots to heal, but then the ranger doesn't eventually get spellcasting in animal form.
Thousand Forms: My only concern here is that it invalidates the inclusion of alter self in the expanded magic options.


Overall, it's excellent in theme and presentation, but it comes across as pretty fiddly. A lot of that is baggage inherited from Wild Shape though, so I am personally inclined to roll with it (and just make sure that the DM is balancing their monster CRs properly).



The spells might not be necessary, no, but I was modeling this (roughly) off the Ranger subclasses in Xanathar's, which get spells.
Resource tracking can be an issue, I agree. As I imagined it when I wrote the feature, you kill a creature in your party and then harvest it immediately, so the DM can just pass you the stat sheet used (which would presumably include whatever resources that creature has which have been used already.
If the cult spell is something that the hobgoblin can innately cast, you can use it. If it's a spell that the hobgoblin was taught how to cast, you can't. I've added a bullet point in the ability clarifying this.
It still works based off Wild Shape, so you keep your mental stats - you mind doesn't change. You don't get the creature's memory, either. Saying that you transform into the specific creature is meant to specifically allow you to disguise yourself by killing someone and wearing their skin - it's not intended to imply that you get access to its mind.
I can see the argument for being able to hold onto the skin, but it's intended to be you harvested and donning the skin in the same 1 hour period (and, again, I imagined it being done immediately after killing the creature). I personally would probably allow Gentle Repose to let you delay it, but the skin does need to be kept intact.
True enough, but it also saves one of the Ranger's sparse spell slots.


Also, I have...



Added a limit on how many skins you can keep sitting around.
Added a quick guide for how skinning a beast should work. Basically you make a survival check based on the CR of the beast, and it takes more time based on how large the beast is.
Also added a size limit for creatures in Monstrous shape, so that you're not spending less time skinning a monster than you might if it was a beast.
Buffed Thousand Forms a little more to make up for you essentially losing one of the spells you get from the expanded spell list. You can use two of its options at once (this is also a clarification - since it no longer costs concentration it could be argued that you could cast it repeatedly and use all the options at once), and once per rest you can use it to fly for a little bit.

Crisis21
2019-04-18, 07:42 PM
What's this? A third caster that isn't based on Wizard? What blasphemy!
In all seriousness, I think that the fact that the only two third casters are both wizard-based in core was a travesty (when clearly Arcane Trickster should have been Bard).


Spellcasting: Based on Eldritch Knight I assume, so not much to comment on here. I would have gone with Abjuration over Evocation, but I can see Evocation working.
Shillelagh: It's fine (maybe a little strong in the higher tiers), though when it's gained it doesn't do a whole lot for the fighter when it is first gained. Their strength will most likely be higher than their wisdom, and improving a club to 1d8 doesn't do much when they can use a warhammer already. It also isn't clear how it interacts when they let go of it. Can other characters use it? Do they replace its attack and damage with their own spellcasting ability or the fighter's? The damage bonus at 5, 11, and 17 does make it worthwhile but also makes it so that every other option progressively gets pushed out (even a greatsword with great weapon fighting has average damage of ~8.2 compared to the level 17 super-shillelagh's 8.5, or 10.5 with duelist).
Natural Expertise: "You gain Expertise in your chosen proficiencies and add double your proficiency bonus to checks made involving them." is redundant. I would also give the skill proficiency at level 3 alongside Herbalism Kit, then the expertise here as it currently is (getting skill proficiencies past the first level you get your subclass is pretty rare).
Nature's Serenity: Fine as is. Possibly a little strong for level 10.
Undying Sentinel: Timeless Body for fighters, with a little Relentless Rage tacked on for seasoning. I like it and the long rest refresh keeps it in check.
Nature's Armory: I'm okay with every part of it except the multiple objects part. Without an upper limit on items, you could be walking around with permanent +2 weapon, shield, and armor (assuming you can get a suit of non-metal armor), and that weapon does 1d12 as a one-hander. You can even share the benefits by casting it on allies' shields, or leather armor, or making a bone shiv and passing the rogue a +2 dagger that does 1d12 instead of 1d4.



Overall, the class is consistent within a theme, but I feel as though the shillelagh scaling doesn't align with the rest of the power growth (it starts off as a rather minor feature and eventually becomes concerningly powerful).



I'll look into adjusting the proficiency thing again.

As for Shillelagh: It's a Druid cantrip that does not scale with level like some other cantrips (i.e. the damage-dealing ones). It typically has a duration of one minute, but ends early if you release the item.

So I gave it some scaling with level to make it just a bit more viable as a Fighter's go-to cantrip.

Yes, you can deal d12 with a one-handed weapon, but that's at level 17 when most PCs are decked out with some swanky high-tier gear anyway. And, yes, the 18th level feature allows you to cast on multiple things, but if they leave your possession the enchantment wears off after one minute (ten rounds) and you can only enchant one item per round. Yes, +2 on-demand is powerful but at level 18 should not be outshining the rest of the party's magical gear.

RickAsWritten
2019-04-18, 10:23 PM
My Ranger - Soulsworn Archetype is up. It's a Ranger that made a pact with a powerful arcane entity in order to survive.

Thanks for hosting the contest, and good luck to everyone that entered; a lot of cool ideas on here.

Fnissalot
2019-04-19, 12:30 AM
Someone's got to steal that divine power, right?


Spellcasting: Okay this is new. It looks like you made some sort of unholy combination of 3.5 and earlier's prepared magic and 5e pact casting. I kinda like it. I don't have a point of comparison for balance but my gut says it's fine.
Terminology Note: Many of your features still refer to resonating with a relic. This seems to have been replaced in the spellcasting feature with having the relic prepared at some point during editing.
Swindling Divinity: The final restriction (cannot recreate the relic until you have used a different Swindle Divinity) seems harsh, as it means there's always one relic you're locked out of after you use the feature once. I would put a time restriction (maybe a week) instead that is bypassed by using the feature again. That way the rogue can come out of downtime at full power while their short term play is similar to what you have here.
Dissonant Prayers and Empty Promises: Besides having entirely too long of a feature name (I kid, I kid), I think that the drawback is perhaps unneeded. It should also clarify whether it means the die result or the total result (die result seems intended, as it would be impossible to trigger on a proficient save otherwise).
Divine Hustle: Besides the use of resonate instead of prepared, at this level the rogue should have 4 total relics prepared, not 2 (so it should read "none" instead of "neither"), and the trigger requirement therefore becomes a little harsh.
Relics: They seem fine. They follow a consistent pattern in number and level of spells granted. I will note that a level 19 Relic Grifter has functionally 32 spells to choose from at the start of the day, which is more than double what other 1/3rd casters get, but since they also give up 25% of their list every time they use one spell I think you're okay.



This is definitely the most mechanically original subclass in the thread so far, and for what it's worth that's a pro in by book. I would recommend a wording pass to make the rest of your features match the changes you made to Spellcasting, and softening the drawbacks on already use-limited features.


Thanks for the comments! I read over it and replaced resonating with prepared.

Making swindling Divinity reset over time as well is super smart! Thanks for the idea.

The point of divine hustle is that it gives you a spell slot if you don't have any at the start of a fight. In practice, it can be an extra spell slot a day but only if you spent your others. Battle master and some other classes have similar abilities that lets them regain 1 resources if they are out when you roll initiative. In my opinion, letting you do this more easily or often would give you to many spell slots or too much options.

nickl_2000
2019-04-19, 06:52 AM
It's a day later than advertised because yesterday ended up a little more hectic than anticipated, but feedback for everyone!



Another one with a great theme. I've always been a sucker for the spiritual-minded weapon user, but for the most part games offer only barehanded (sometimes staff) users in that field.


Warrior's Wisdom: Full ki progression seems high. As I read the other features, it seems like you've made a lot of this subclass's ki costs higher than what a straight monk would pay for similar features (other than the level 3 abilities). As a way to discourage multiclassing to get extra ki, I suppose this is a solution, but given how deep into this class you have to go to get the really good ones I think a smaller ki pool and cheaper abilities would also work.
Warrior's Wisdom also doesn't specify that you regain ki on a short rest, which I assume is the case.
Exploit Weakness: Wording is a little odd. I would put the trigger first, something like: "When you damage an opponent with a weapon attack, you may[...]", and the second clause would read better as "If the triggering attack was a critical hit[...]". Balance-wise I'm on the fence with this feature. It has the potential to really exacerbate Sharpshooter/GWM, but it's on theme and has a resource cost.
Something out of Nothing: Critical miss isn't a standard rule. "if the attack roll was a natural 1" would be more in-line with PHB phrasing. I like this as a defensive feature that isn't fully Patient Defense.
Lesser Ki Manipulation: These are all 1st level spells, so I'm not sure why they have different costs here. I get that the utility of something like bless is higher than command, but they are technically valued equally by the game's structure. The cost is also higher than similar monk features (for 2 ki, Way of Shadows gets 2nd level spells, for example).
Mental Shield's cost is a little high for what it does. Charm and fear effects are pretty uncommon and it has no lasting duration.
Greater Ki Manipulation: As with Lesser Ki Manipulation, these are all the same spell level, so it's odd to me that they have different costs. They are also quite expensive, even compared to Way of Four Elements (though Four Elements is probably not a good comparison point for ki costs, as it's all over the place).
Ki Battlefocus: It probably doesn't need to specify remaining ki. It's also arguably the absolute best return on ki investment the subclass gets (invisibility is chump change compared to +wis to damage and AC on the class with the most total ASIs), to the point where after I got this, I would probably never use any other ki-spender besides Exploit Weakness and maybe Something Out of Nothing. With Action Surge 2/SR the action cost is manageable.



Overall, I would cut back the number of ki and the ki costs (especially on the spell-duplicating features). I think you have consistent theme throughout and I think that theme is a good one.




For getting the Ki back on a short rest, it is in there (you gain ki points equal to your fighter level and regain them on a short rest).

Thanks for the wording changes, that does clean it up and read much better. The critical miss wording comes from learning to play D&D in a 3E world, in my mind a roll of 1 will always be a critical miss even if all it does is make you miss now.

My initial thought was half of the fighter level rounded up and cheap Ki costs, so I am going back to that (well actually fighter level/2 + wis mod). It still is a little rife for abuse with taking monk levels, but that should be okay in the end.

As for battle focus. I specified the remaining Ki because you can us "up to" it. So, as a PC if you have 10 Ki available to you, you can choose to only use 5 of them in the battle. I wanted to leave it more flexible for the player than burn them all to get this huge bonus. I do see this as being the primary use of Ki at high levels, but there is still out of combat use for Invisibility, Command, and Suggestion.

Bloodcloud
2019-04-19, 11:02 AM
The reason the claw scale, is they become useless if they donít, a problem the other drift donít have. I notice totem barbs donít have perfect symetry on their totem abilities so i figure itís alright.

English is not my first language so corrections are sure appreciated.

Apotheosis iím having a bit of trouble on the balancing. Theme wise, i was having a bit of trouble finding cool enough abilities still beast teamed, and moon druid gets the elemental form evetually, so i figured it mirrored that progression.

WarrentheHero
2019-04-22, 02:29 AM
I think for the current contest, Something Borrowed, we should really be sure to follow the directive in rule 3 of the contest to clearly state which class these subclasses are for. Reading some of the submissions, it is difficult in some to determine what the actual class is at a first or even second read-through. I think people should consider posting the Main class and Donor class in their submissions, for clarity.

Fnissalot
2019-04-22, 07:07 AM
I think for the current contest, Something Borrowed, we should really be sure to follow the directive in rule 3 of the contest to clearly state which class these subclasses are for. Reading some of the submissions, it is difficult in some to determine what the actual class is at a first or even second read-through. I think people should consider posting the Main class and Donor class in their submissions, for clarity.

That is a good point!

Man_Over_Game
2019-04-22, 03:44 PM
It's a day later than advertised because yesterday ended up a little more hectic than anticipated, but feedback for everyone!


First off I like the theme. The game could use a couple more (functional) pet classes. Now for feature review.


I think the core pet is fine; which makes sense since it's basically copied from Revised Ranger. Proficiency also good.
Does Savage Bond still require the material component (a pair of platinum rings worth 50gp each)? Does it still have a range of touch (I assume yes)? Finally, you might want to put a special exception to the rule that barbarians can't cast spells while raging, just to appease the rules-lawyers.
Predatory Tactics's second benefit is odd on the class that gets Reckless Attack, but honestly I'm okay with it. Barbarian 10 is supposed to be a niche benefit anyway.
Guardian of the Pack is a good protective feature and optional way to enter rage off turn. How does it work if you are out of rages for the day?



Overall I think the subclass is good, but I'm a little sad there aren't any improvements to the companion itself. It seems like you did it that way to distance it from the Beastmaster itself (which gets nothing but improvements to the animal), but I think a barbarian-oriented animal improvement (such as sharing rage's bonus damage) would be good.



Thanks for taking a look at it!

I wanted to separate the Pack Master as "Beastmaster Ranger with Barbarian levels". It's not "Man and Beast are best friends", but "Man conquers beast through brute strength, beast accepts the Man as leader". It's not about the Beast. It's about the Hunt. It's about the beast following the Alpha, because it is the proper thing to do. The Barbarian rules the pair, and that's how it should be between savage predators. Even something like Savage Bond is entirely decided by the Barbarian, and only provided when the Barbarian Rages. As a result, the Barbarian is the one who takes responsibility for the Pack (through Savage Bond and Guardian of the Pack).

I considered making Guardian of the Pack ignore Rage uses, but SOMEBODY said its writing was too ugly to include (not pointing fingers, YOU KNOW YOU ARE). I'll probably add in a way to make it happen in a bit.

I will probably change Warding Bond to not use Components and to have a Range of 60 feet. I still don't know how to write it in a good way that makes it clear that you can cast it while Raging, without it being overly wordy.

RickAsWritten
2019-04-23, 08:17 AM
Any thoughts on the Ranger Soulsworn Archetype? It's got the focus and the feel down, but it's a little bit passive. I'm thinking that it actually might be a little underpowered, especially the 3rd level ability.
I didn't want to give them straight-up Arcane Recovery, but I'm thinking my nerfed version isn't splashy enough compared to the Hordebreakers and Dread Ambushers of the world.

Vogie
2019-04-23, 09:45 AM
I really want the performance feature in there, so I dropped the new spell Save DC to 3 + Performance Skill. That way, at max level, you can get your DC to 20 (Expertise maxes out at 12, Charisma caps at +5), but isn't 100%




Any thoughts on the Ranger Soulsworn Archetype? It's got the focus and the feel down, but it's a little bit passive. I'm thinking that it actually might be a little underpowered, especially the 3rd level ability.
I didn't want to give them straight-up Arcane Recovery, but I'm thinking my nerfed version isn't splashy enough compared to the Hordebreakers and Dread Ambushers of the world.

What I'd do is switch the Invocation with the 7th level feature that gives a Familiar. Even though it doesn't click into the warlock mechanical skeleton directly, Rangers already have a connection to animals, and they aren't huge spellcasters anyway.

What you could do is include the "you may give up an attack to have your familiar attack as a reaction" rider in the 7th level feature, alongside the invocation selection. That gives it a very Ranger-y feel by taking a (currently) Warlock-only mechanic.

Bloodcloud
2019-04-23, 10:51 AM
Any thoughts on the Ranger Soulsworn Archetype? It's got the focus and the feel down, but it's a little bit passive. I'm thinking that it actually might be a little underpowered, especially the 3rd level ability.
I didn't want to give them straight-up Arcane Recovery, but I'm thinking my nerfed version isn't splashy enough compared to the Hordebreakers and Dread Ambushers of the world.

My recommendation would be to commit to a specific patron. Maybe even commit to a boon like blade. Fey would be keep a more consistant thematic with the ranger, devil would emphasize the multiclass aspect. I'd either grant eldritch blast altogether or forgoe it. It's a neat idea, but I feel the thematic is a bit all over the place, trying to fit in a bit of every warlock mechanics.

RickAsWritten
2019-04-23, 03:52 PM
What I'd do is switch the Invocation with the 7th level feature that gives a Familiar. Even though it doesn't click into the warlock mechanical skeleton directly, Rangers already have a connection to animals, and they aren't huge spellcasters anyway.

What you could do is include the "you may give up an attack to have your familiar attack as a reaction" rider in the 7th level feature, alongside the invocation selection. That gives it a very Ranger-y feel by taking a (currently) Warlock-only mechanic.

On one hand, it makes sense to move the familiar earlier, and good point about it fitting the Ranger aesthetic, but then the subclass is getting a Pact Boon at the same level as a normal Warlock.

I'll definitely throw the attack replacement option in there, but I doubt it will get used much(although I guess the Pact of the Chain one doesn't get used too much either lol, but it's a nice option to have). How do the choices of slightly upgraded familiars look? I struggled to find good options, and currently the Flying Snake is probably the hands-down best option. I wanted to include a Flumph as a choice but was worried that that would be too strong.


My recommendation would be to commit to a specific patron. Maybe even commit to a boon like blade. Fey would be keep a more consistant thematic with the ranger, devil would emphasize the multiclass aspect. I'd either grant eldritch blast altogether or forgoe it. It's a neat idea, but I feel the thematic is a bit all over the place, trying to fit in a bit of every warlock mechanics.

I specifically avoided leaning too hard into one patron or another because the rules of the contest are to make a subclass out of a different base class. The Pact Boons are part of the base class though, so maybe I could add some of that modularity into there. Maybe give the choice between a familiar, a summonable weapon, or a couple Warlock cantrips. Hmm...

I wanted to avoid Eldritch Blast all together because then you could just make a Ranger with a two level dip in Warlock and have the same exact character. I gave them a pseudo-Eldritch Blast at 11th though. That's the level that most of the other Ranger subclasses get their version of a 3rd attack-like ability, so the Soulsworn gets it with that.

Vogie
2019-04-23, 04:14 PM
I'll definitely throw the attack replacement option in there, but I doubt it will get used much(although I guess the Pact of the Chain one doesn't get used too much either lol, but it's a nice option to have). How do the choices of slightly upgraded familiars look? I struggled to find good options, and currently the Flying Snake is probably the hands-down best option. I wanted to include a Flumph as a choice but was worried that that would be too strong.


The reason that Chain doesn't use it much is because ONLY bladepact gets the extra attack feature, so by using that ability they would:
a) lose their entire action
b) reveal their invisible familiar

Since Rangers have an Extra attack baseline, and their familiars aren't invisible, that allows a unique coordinated-attack style playstyle that only the ranger has.

RickAsWritten
2019-04-23, 04:22 PM
The reason that Chain doesn't use it much is because ONLY bladepact gets the extra attack feature, so by using that ability they would:
a) lose their entire action
b) reveal their invisible familiar

Since Rangers have an Extra attack baseline, and their familiars aren't invisible, that allows a unique coordinated-attack style playstyle that only the ranger has.

Mmm, good point. I hadn't thought of that. Sounds fun.

Question. I think the Otherworldly Recover should be changed because it feels rather meh. Which would be better:


At 3rd level, the mysterious entity that you are beholden to grants you a boon to your spell casting. Once per day when you finish a short rest, you can choose expended spell slots to recover. The spell slots can have a combined level that is equal to or less than one third of your Ranger level (rounded down), and none of the slots can be 6th level or higher.

or


At 3rd level, the mysterious entity that you are beholden to grants you a boon to your spell casting. Whenever you finish a short rest, you can choose expended spell slots to recover. The spell slots can have a combined level that is equal to one half of your Proficiency Bonus (rounded up).

or keep it as is but round up.

Another option could be the altered version but it's based on Wisdom modifier. I quite like this option. It'll be between 2 and 5 levels and would allow a player that wanted to focus on casting to prioritize Wisdom and become a pretty decent spellcaster.

Crisis21
2019-04-23, 07:33 PM
Mmm, good point. I hadn't thought of that. Sounds fun.

Question. I think the Otherworldly Recover should be changed because it feels rather meh. Which would be better:


At 3rd level, the mysterious entity that you are beholden to grants you a boon to your spell casting. Once per day when you finish a short rest, you can choose expended spell slots to recover. The spell slots can have a combined level that is equal to or less than one third of your Ranger level (rounded down), and none of the slots can be 6th level or higher.

or


At 3rd level, the mysterious entity that you are beholden to grants you a boon to your spell casting. Whenever you finish a short rest, you can choose expended spell slots to recover. The spell slots can have a combined level that is equal to one half of your Proficiency Bonus (rounded up).

or keep it as is but round up.

Another option could be the altered version but it's based on Wisdom modifier. I quite like this option. It'll be between 2 and 5 levels and would allow a player that wanted to focus on casting to prioritize Wisdom and become a pretty decent spellcaster.

Well, the first problem I see is that Rangers don't get 6th level spell slots to begin with. As a half-caster class they cap at 5th level spell slots.

As for the options, I'd say the second, but let the combined level of the recovered spell slots equal their full proficiency bonus (up to 6 levels total).

Vogie
2019-04-24, 07:55 AM
Alternatively, you could steal more directly from Pact magic, and have only a single highest level spell slot refresh on a short rest. That'd let the Ranger feel more caster-y, but not in the "well I'll get more bang for my buck with 3 1st level slots"

Crisis21
2019-04-29, 12:27 PM
Question: How is the theme of each contest decided? Can we offer suggestions?

Man_Over_Game
2019-04-29, 12:47 PM
Question: How is the theme of each contest decided? Can we offer suggestions?

We make a vote when we cast votes for the subclass. I think MoleMage has a list of possible ideas, and we just kinda vote on whatever we think is the coolest one. The last round was about Luck.

Crisis21
2019-04-29, 12:58 PM
We make a vote when we cast votes for the subclass. I think MoleMage has a list of possible ideas, and we just kinda vote on whatever we think is the coolest one. The last round was about Luck.

And can we make suggestions? Because I'd like to suggest: Make A Choice (subclasses like the Totem Barbarian where you can select between different feature options at one or more tiers of the subclass)

Amnoriath
2019-04-29, 01:03 PM
Just wondering what people thought of my Bone Knight and if I should port it over here or not.

Crisis21
2019-04-29, 01:36 PM
Just wondering what people thought of my Bone Knight and if I should port it over here or not.

What do you mean 'port it over here'?

MoleMage
2019-04-29, 02:33 PM
Any thoughts on the Ranger Soulsworn Archetype? It's got the focus and the feel down, but it's a little bit passive. I'm thinking that it actually might be a little underpowered, especially the 3rd level ability.
I didn't want to give them straight-up Arcane Recovery, but I'm thinking my nerfed version isn't splashy enough compared to the Hordebreakers and Dread Ambushers of the world.


After the changes made based on previous feedback, I think this is overall in a pretty good place. A couple comments below.


Earned Invocation: The spell level for invocations should be at least the minimum required level, to allow for upcasting (Warlocks automatically would upcast these).
Invoked Attack is wordier than it needs to be, though it's functions are fine. Maybe something like: "You can make a ranged spell attack against a target within 60 feet of you using your spell attack modifier for ranger spells. On a hit, the target takes force damage equal to 1d10 plus your Wisdom modifier and is pushed back 5 feet. Creatures you have struck with a melee weapon attack this turn do not impose disadvantage on your attack rolls with this ability. At 17th level, you can fire two beams instead of one when you use this ability."
Invoked Attack's clause about disadvantage feels pushed in to make melee viable; making distinct abilities at this tier for melee and for ranged Soulsworn (which you choose between similar to hunter ranger) would be more compelling.
The spellsworn prerequisite table seems to be redundant with the class description which says that only those invocations mentioned in the subclass description are permitted. Is the intent to allow invocations from additional sources according to that table?






Question: How is the theme of each contest decided? Can we offer suggestions?


We make a vote when we cast votes for the subclass. I think MoleMage has a list of possible ideas, and we just kinda vote on whatever we think is the coolest one. The last round was about Luck.


And can we make suggestions? Because I'd like to suggest: Make A Choice (subclasses like the Totem Barbarian where you can select between different feature options at one or more tiers of the subclass)

The theme is decided by a vote on a subset of all suggested themes so far. The subset is determined in the following way: First, any runner(s)-up are added. Then, I use Google's random number generator to select enough themes to fill out the roster for voting from the list of suggested themes so far. I initially had said that I would do 3, or 5 if there were at least 10 entries, but I think I'll just do 5 regardless from now on.

Suggestions are tracked in a spoiler in the first post of this thread (the previous runner-up is underlined so we know where to find it). After I post this reply to various comments I'll add Make a Choice to the list as no equivalent theme is there under a different name as yet.


Just wondering what people thought of my Bone Knight and if I should port it over here or not.


The theme here is great. It really embraces both halves of the equation to make something whole and new whereas some of the themes (my own included) are more skewed to one side or the other.


Class: Though the word fighter appears several times in the description, those uses come across as the generic "one who fights" rather than a class reference to me. Calling it a Martial Archetype somewhere would be enough to clarify it for me.
Formatting: The class features could use more line breaks and/or whitespace in their descriptions.
Bonecraft Armor does a lot of different things. Too many, in my opinion, for a 3rd-level feature (especially alongside pact magic). I would break up its benefits throughout the subclass, and recommend list formatting if a single level gives three or more benefits. The spell slot ability's immunities are too strong (especially immunity to stunned and paralyzed).
Bonecraft Armor/Weapon: "If a creature were to steal this" could be interpreted as a creature intending to steal. "If a creature steals this object, they suffer [penalties] until they return it to the fighter."
Why is your pact magic progression different from the donor classes? Existing spellcasting archetypes (Eldritch Knight and Arcane Trickster) follow the same progression as the base class, just slowed down to 1/3rd speed. It's odd that you get 2nd level spell slots before a 2nd pact magic spell slot.
Two of your three spells are Paladin exclusive spells. I understand why you picked them (they promote the heavily armored death knight image), but I would trade Wrathful Smite for something from the Hadar line at least (the horse can stay).
Undeath's Blessing: I don't like the ability to trade out ASIs.
Bonecraft Legionnaire could probably just grant Animate Dead without a spell slot. Sample wording: "You know the spell Animate Dead and can cast it without consuming a spell slot. Undead creatures created through this feature treat their attacks as magical for purposes of overcoming resistance and immunity, and when you use your bonus action to issue a command to undead under your control, you can expend a spell slot to give them temporary hit points equal to 1d8 + the spell level of the slot consumed for up to 1 minute. While the temporary hit points last, they deal additional damage equal to 2 + the spell level of the slot consumed on their weapon attacks."
Extra note on Bonecraft Legionnaire: Monstrous Humanoid was dropped as a type along with Magical Beast. Both got folded together into a single Monstrosity creature type.
Bonecraft Weapon: Same formatting concerns as with Bonecraft Armor (it runs together in one big block). The bonus damage is too weak and the rider too strong for my taste. The spell slot triggered ability is also very strong given they get their spell slots back on a short rest.
Undeath's General: It feels mostly underwhelming after the big feature that is Bonecraft Weapon. It should also specify how many hit points the undead is restored to when you use its reaction ability.



Overall, your theme is where it needs to be, but some of your features are a little bloated.

KOLE
2019-04-29, 03:31 PM
Hey ya'll, I'm throwing my hat in the ring as homebrewing is something I'm more and more drawn to these days, and I'd like to hone that skill.

Inspiration from this literally came from rolling 2d12, one for the base class and one for the "Borrowing" class. 9 and 10 meant a Sorcerer inspire Roguish Archetype!

I'm excited about this but worried it might be on the strong side. I wanted a strong thematic connection without just slapping metamagic on an Arcane Trickster. I really wanted it to feel like a gritty, dirty, unrefined innate spellcaster.

I also dialed down cantrips and spells known from the EK/AT base design as I didn't feel a 1/3rd caster should know the same amount of spells as a full caster.

RickAsWritten
2019-04-29, 03:46 PM
[SPOILER=Soulsworn feedback]
After the changes made based on previous feedback, I think this is overall in a pretty good place. A couple comments below.


Earned Invocation: The spell level for invocations should be at least the minimum required level, to allow for upcasting (Warlocks automatically would upcast these).
Invoked Attack is wordier than it needs to be, though it's functions are fine. Maybe something like: "You can make a ranged spell attack against a target within 60 feet of you using your spell attack modifier for ranger spells. On a hit, the target takes force damage equal to 1d10 plus your Wisdom modifier and is pushed back 5 feet. Creatures you have struck with a melee weapon attack this turn do not impose disadvantage on your attack rolls with this ability. At 17th level, you can fire two beams instead of one when you use this ability."
Invoked Attack's clause about disadvantage feels pushed in to make melee viable; making distinct abilities at this tier for melee and for ranged Soulsworn (which you choose between similar to hunter ranger) would be more compelling.
The spellsworn prerequisite table seems to be redundant with the class description which says that only those invocations mentioned in the subclass description are permitted. Is the intent to allow invocations from additional sources according to that table?



Good points all around, thanks.

Point-by-point:

I'll add the upcast option.
Haha, so I copy-pasted the wording directly from the Sunsoul Monk, and then realized that the Ranger would already have the spellcasting basic descriptions. Meant to revise it but forgot.
Good idea. It was most definitely slapped-on. I'll have to think on that one.
Partly yes, but also because it's kinda confusing if skimmed or quickly read. You can only change an Invocation when you get a new one, as opposed to Warlocks which can change on any level-up. One would assume that when a Soulsworn gets 3rd level spells that they could use the Invocations that include 3rd level spells, but they have to wait until they gain a new Invocation. I added the chart to help with clarity. Also, to give the little bonus tidbit that Hunter's Mark works with the Hex-based Invocations.

DracoDei
2019-04-29, 03:48 PM
Considering entering this, but the class I would be Borrowing from would be one I am still in the very early stages of making, and may not wish to post within the time-frame of this contest. Would that be acceptable?

EDIT:
I have however made two different versions of said base class for 3.x/PF and have been playing it in an ongoing campaign. I'd link the 3.x/PF versions, but it they aren't so much walls of text as massive citadels of verbiage which the unwary should not venture without a guide. The more canny should be able to find them if they look with wisdom.

Mostly a note to myself: It would probably either be a Clerical Domain (Martyr?), or a Druid Circle ("Circle of the Mother Bird/Mama Wolf"). Perhaps a Paladin Oath, or MAYBE a Bardic college.

Class level : Spell


1st: Compelled Duel, Guiding Bolt (Dropped Bless so as to distance this further from Life Domain... may need to change this back given the 1st level special ability regarding concentration.)
3rd: ?Status? (would need to write up), !Warding Bond! (Class feature that allows you to cast from higher level slot for more targets? Maybe also gives more HP, or heals hp when you cast it, but which are lost if you voluntarily cancel the spell?) (Dropped Aid to push them towards Warding Bond)
5th: Beacon of Hope, ?Helping Hand? (Would need to write up), OR ?Protection from Energy?
7th: Death Ward, Freedom of Movement, OR Locate Creature (probably best to give this as a special ability so it can work on allies only)
9th: ?Greater Restoration?, ?Raise Dead? (Class feature to put half the penalty on yourself? This would allow this to be extended to Resurrection), Telepathic Bond

1st: Advantage on Concentration checks on spells that target only your allies (so they CAN'T be targeting you). May need to include some language allowing you to exclude yourself from AoE effects, especially those centered on yourself.

2nd:
Channel Divinity use:
(Bonus Action?) Disadvantage Self on X saves (scaling?) / Advantage allies on same save within 20' (10'? 30'?) (or /+2 for cases where they would already have advantage). Give a choice, or just another alternate use to allow similar for to-hit rolls on you/allies?

OR

Spend spell slots like paladin when making opportunity attacks when not having used attack action etc on previous round for next hour... or just 1d4 per class level and don't involve spell slots? Get to pick energy type when you gain this feature?

AND/OR

Transfer one (more?) negative condition(s) (including all fatigue levels) from one (more?) allies onto yourself by touch?

6th: Give option passed up at level 2? Carry the Burden? Gift of Time?

8th: Very nerfed Shield of the Soul (limited duration? perhaps requires Channel Divinity to activate?)

?9th: Can take 1/2 of penalty for someone you return from the dead.

17th: Band of Blood Brothers (Requires 1 or 2 Channel Divinity?)? Defensive Foresight? Give choice between the two?

MoleMage
2019-04-29, 04:13 PM
Considering entering this, but the class I would be Borrowing from would be one I am still in the very early stages of making, and may not wish to post within the time-frame of this contest. Would that be acceptable?

If you can provide a description or link to the portions of the class that are being Borrowed, it will be allowed.

EDIT: That said, it is preferred to provide a whole base class when using homebrew.

DracoDei
2019-04-29, 05:18 PM
If you can provide a description or link to the portions of the class that are being Borrowed, it will be allowed.

EDIT: That said, it is preferred to provide a whole base class when using homebrew.


Well, the first 3.x/PF version (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?247637-Semi-hiatus-to-avoid-wearing-new-reviewers-out-but-ANYONE-can-post-here-if-you-want&p=13454543) is long since mechanically complete. The Mythos version had some basic language that I never could get quite right. The fluff, at least for the mythos version, is a messily written, mostly because I kept struggling with how to pound into the reader's head what they were all about sufficiently that they would stop bringing up things like the complexity and/or lack of offense/impressiveness.

Relevant themes:
-Debuff yourself to buff your allies.
-Opportunity Attacks (may or may not include this aspect).
-Outside of combat healing (Might not be doing anything with this, and if I do it might just be adding Prayer of Healing to the spell list... but there IS something I could throw in basically verbatim from the class.)

I'll summarize some of the abilities of the unpublished work-VERY-MUCH-in-progress (and yet playtested from levels ~3 to 11.) 5e version that I am considering drawing from:
-Warding Bond that provides no numerical bonuses, lasts only a single round, but is at-will*.

*Yes, I know that this is discouraged in 5e... my Domain will stay away from this much more than the class does/will do.
-Spend your action and reduce your movement to 0 for the round to grant 1 round of Haste to an ally.
-Lose your class bonus to AC (Cha. Mod.) to grant it to an ally, or, at higher levels, to grant it -2 to all allies in a radius.
-Lose proficiency with a certain number of saves (how many varies with level, note that the class is proficient with all saves*) to grant your proficiency bonus to all saves by allies within 10', and half that to allies from further than that, but within 30'.

*Daring, I know, and, again, not going to be putting this in the Domain. There I'll just use Disadvantage/Advantage.
-Since most of the classes casting is Bonus Action for 1 round effects, they don't need to worry about Concentration checks. If I use this theme, I would do it as Advantage on Concentration on spells that target your allies, but which you don't target yourself with (probably will need a clause about being able to choose when casting, say, Beacon of Hope to not gain its benefits yourself.
-Spend a short rest playing Florence Nightengale. You get no benefits from the rest, but Cha. Mod. allies get to roll each hit-die they spend twice, and add them together (including the Constitution modifier).
-Cha. Bonus extra reactions each round that can only be used for opportunity attacks (basically 3.x Combat Reflexes feat, but charisma based). +Cha. Mod. to-hit with opportunity attacks and +class level to damage (might be too much in most 5e games, but it seems to work in the one I am playing in, and the 3.x versions could go up to triple class level for damage.). Going to hew a lot closer to the 5e paladin smite (IE fueled with spell slots, and trying to take into account that Clerics have more slots than Paladins) for the Domain.
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Between the links and the listings, is that a sufficient level of detail?


EDIT: I'm thinking of allowing dexterity to substitute for wisdom for Bolt of Resilient Guidance or whatever I called it, because the Archetype is looking a little M.A.D. You might end up with cleric builds that dumpstat all mental ability scores(with Wis>Cha>Int still), but... eh, why not?

nickl_2000
2019-04-30, 12:53 PM
Here we go :)

Bastion of Defense - Skip the whole stuff about strength requirements and dwarf and all that stuff. It over complicates the ability when that is built into everything. Just give proficiency in Heavy Armor, the rest is resolved by other PhB rules.
-You are also proficient with Martial Reach weapons, but only when making an opportunity attack. - This seems unnessarily complicated, enough so that I often wouldn't bother having the reach weapon. Or if I did it would be a whip in one hand and something else in another
-However, these benefits come with a tiny drawback. You must always humbly remember that your best defense may not be sufficient. If you are not proficient in the Medicine skill, you must always prepare the Spare the Dying cantrip
This is a little off for 5e wording too. You don't actually prepare cantrips, you just get them and always have them ready to use. So, if you wanted to do this you say "you must choose spare the dying as one of your cantrips at level 1" and leave it at that.


Channel Divinity I honestly don't know what to do with these. The power is significant for both, but the downside sucks (at least for selfless sacrifice). Viscious Defense actually can be gotten around really, really easily. If I were to get Booming Blade, I can use that instead of an attack and still do significant damage easily, or just cast a cantrip every round. It's not all that hard to overcome this for what yu end up getting.

Carry the Burden: - Phew the wording on this is complicated. You can simply it massively.
Fly is considered a prepared spell and you cast it as one spell level higher than the slot used. However, you cannot cast it on yourself... Add the burden stuff in there.

Gift of Time: - Wow, another complicated ability here. Simplify it down. You may forgo your action, bonus action, and movement to allow an ally to gain and extra attack and extra movement on their next time. You can do this Wisdom Mod times per long rest.

Nexus of Brotherhood: - So this is pretty confusing too. You pick a total of 6 people, damage is shared between each person as evenly as possible, then any remainder goes 1 point to you, 1 point to the original target, 1 point to the highest HP, etc...

Honestly this feels pretty underpowered for a capstone. At least make is so that the remainder after dividing disappears. It would simplify it, make it so much easier on the brain, and add a little power to it.

DracoDei
2019-04-30, 01:57 PM
Does anyone have any critique on the two original spells I created for this domain?


Given the one round duration of Gift of Time, I'm thinking of making it "Proficiency modifier + Wisdom Modifier per long rest", instead of just Wis. Mod. as I changed it to at nickl_2000's suggestion. This is especially true since the other abilities of the domain cover all of the physical ability scores in terms of what they require to do well*. For this reason I think it would actually be good for them to be able to dump wisdom.
*Strength for Carry the Burden and damage/to-hit on OOs, Dexterity for Mob-Halting Reflexes, and Constitution for Tanking and the capstone. Admittedly there are arguments against these all being necessary in any one build.

Am I crazy or is this actually a good idea?

I could actually power it up further, while making wisdom both more AND less important (from various points of view), by making it "Wisdom SCORE rounds per long rest" and not bringing Proficiency Modifier into it. This is even more daring of course, but... MAYBE??? Maybe allow this as a power-up if you select it at both 6th AND 8th?


I'm thinking of allowing dexterity to substitute for wisdom for Bolt of Resilient Guidance because the Archetype is looking a little M.A.D. You might end up with cleric builds that dumpstat all mental ability scores(still with Wis>Cha>Int), but... eh, why not?

If everyone, rather than just nickl_2000 could look at the questions I ask him in my response to him, I would be grateful. I'll put them in slightly larger font and Fire Brick color to help with this.

nickl_2000, In general: Thank you, especially for your simplifications!:smallsmile: Figuring out that sort of thing is always where I struggle the most, especially since I usually don't want to change the underlying dynamics, just how I explain them. :smalleek:
You succeeded even with that strict standard in almost all cases!


Bastion of Defense - Skip the whole stuff about strength requirements and dwarf and all that stuff. It over complicates the ability when that is built into everything. Just give proficiency in Heavy Armor, the rest is resolved by other PhB rules.
The idea is that you have to always be ready to rush to the aid of an ally in need, or close a gap in the defenses screening the more glass cannon characters. Thus anything that slows your movement is counter to the philosophy of the Domain.

This was the fluff justification for why Grace-Gifts were limited to light armor and no shield.

Should I still drop the restriction?


Most Grace-Gift spells have 1 round durations and very short ranges (less pronounced in 5e since ranges already tend to be shorter). This is to keep them near the front lines where they are actually in danger, rather than hanging back and buffing the front-liners.

To support this they do most of their casting as bonus actions (to enable Dash, among other things). In3.x/PF they also got the Tumble skill (closest thing in 5e is the Disengage action).

In 3.x/PF even medium armor slowed you.

So... with the ranges not being super-short for most clerical buffs, with the exception of Beacon of Hope and similar "aura" spells, this might not be as needed.



-You are also proficient with Martial Reach weapons, but only when making an opportunity attack. - This seems unnessarily complicated, enough so that I often wouldn't bother having the reach weapon. Or if I did it would be a whip in one hand and something else in another.
I would have been more sanguine about just flat-out granting proficiency if the damage on reach weapons were a little lower.

Also, I wanted to add a bit more emphasis to the "Don't use the Attack Action" thing.

It isn't like reach weapons are that expensive, and you should have a decent strength score with this Domain. So by level 2 or 3 you might as well carry around a reach weapon, even if you only switch to it when you KNOW you are going to be activating Vicious Defense in your next combat. And really, you are supposed to be a Buffer/Roadblock, not DPR (except via Roadblock). At low levels not being proficient is only -10% chance to hit, and at high levels the damage on your melee attack is probably too low to matter. Or am I missing something?

Should I go ahead and just give blanket proficiency?


<SNIP>
This is a little off for 5e wording too. You don't actually prepare cantrips, you just get them and always have them ready to use. So, if you wanted to do this you say "you must choose spare the dying as one of your cantrips at level 1" and leave it at that.
Yeah, my 3.x/PF experience mislead me. I'll fix it.


Channel Divinity I honestly don't know what to do with these. The power is significant for both, but the downside sucks (at least for selfless sacrifice). Vicious Defense actually can be gotten around really, really easily. If I were to get Booming Blade, I can use that instead of an attack and still do significant damage easily, or just cast a cantrip every round. It's not all that hard to overcome this for what you end up getting.

Should I jump this up to also disallowing spells that deal damage, or even also include spells that target enemies?


Carry the Burden: <SNIP>

Gift of Time: -<SNIP>
Thanks again for these simplifications!


Nexus of Brotherhood: - So this is pretty confusing too. You pick a total of 6 people, damage is shared between each person as evenly as possible, then any remainder goes 1 point to you, 1 point to the original target, 1 point to the highest HP, etc...

Honestly this feels pretty underpowered for a capstone. At least make is so that the remainder after dividing disappears. It would simplify it, make it so much easier on the brain, and add a little power to it.

Ah, I was worried about the power level. It basically means enemies can't focus their attacks and have to deal a LOT more damage before they endanger even the weakest member of the party*. I've had someone basically say (as a compliment) that this would be the part of the story where the villain shouts "What?! Impossible?! This can not be!" (and then the hero says something about The Power of Friendship).
*And if you strategically drop a Heal on said squishy with the right timing... in parties with less of a range of hit-point totals, you substitute Mass Cure Wounds.

That having been said, yeah, I will at least have that tiny bit of damage disappear, and I could go further if people think I should.

Ways it could be further powered up:

It can transfer damage AWAY from you, rather than just TO you.
Increase the duration to 10 minutes or 1 hour.
Have it refresh on a Short Rest.
Make it a Bonus action, or even a Reaction to activate.
If I really needed to, I could have a "ghost teammate" such that you divide by X+1 rather than X, meaning more damage is lost entirely. Maybe require that it have Y targets before you get this bonus, since the fraction of the damage disappearing is larger the fewer targets you have.
Perhaps strongest of all: If I made transfering the damage optional on the part of the original recipient of the damage each time then that would vastly increase the damage that would need to be dealt to the party before people started hitting 0.

Which one/combination of these options should I choose? For the moment I have gone with only the first one.

*Goes off to copy-paste in most of the simplifications.*
Done, although it wasn't always direct copy-paste. I also powered up the capstone by allowing it to move damage away from you, underlined the damage in Vicious Defense so people don't miss it by thinking it is "just like Smite except for OOs", and nerfed that same ability to not allow most offensive spells. Should I drop the clarifying sentence about "thorns" and "painful buffs" in the new Vicious Defense description?


For the duration of this ability you lose the ability to use the Attack action and to cast spells that deal damage, unless they target only your allies. This last clause would most commonly be a "thorns" effect, but if you have a spell that deals damage in exchange for a powerful buff then you could cast that.

nickl_2000
2019-04-30, 05:42 PM
It isn't like reach weapons are that expensive, and you should have a decent strength score with this Domain. So by level 2 or 3 you might as well carry around a reach weapon, even if you only switch to it when you KNOW you are going to be activating Vicious Defense in your next combat. And really, you are supposed to be a Buffer/Roadblock, not DPR (except via Roadblock). At low levels not being proficient is only -10% chance to hit, and at high levels the damage on your melee attack is probably too low to matter. Or am I missing something?

Should I go ahead and just give blanket proficiency?


Should I jump this up to also disallowing spells that deal damage, or even also include spells that target enemies?


It can transfer damage AWAY from you, rather than just TO you.
Increase the duration to 10 minutes or 1 hour.
Have it refresh on a Short Rest.
Make it a Bonus action, or even a Reaction to activate.
If I really needed to, I could have a "ghost teammate" such that you divide by X+1 rather than X, meaning more damage is lost entirely. Maybe require that it have Y targets before you get this bonus, since the fraction of the damage disappearing is larger the fewer targets you have.
Perhaps strongest of all: If I made transfering the damage optional on the part of the original recipient of the damage each time then that would vastly increase the damage that would need to be dealt to the party before people started hitting 0.

Which one/combination of these options should I choose? For the moment I have gone with only the first one.



So you want them to be able to use reach weapons for the sake of more AoOs, but you don't want them to get the d10 damage dice? Simple give them whip at level 1 which is 1d4 and reach, it can be used with strength or dex. That should solve your issue. However, I don't see the issue with giving them 1d10 reach weapons since you have class features that are taking away their ability to attack and they need to forgo a shield to use them.


No you shouldn't include skipping spells that do damage, for the simple reason that its going to get really, really boring for the player who is using this ability if they can't do anything other than sit (or use the help action).


As for the level 17 ability, include everyone. You are sharing the pain between everyone, it should include you as well. In no way should you increase the ability. You channel divinities last way to long as it is, so don't make this go nuts either. Refreshing on a short rest would be fine in my mind. That would make it happen more often and be more useful of an ability.


The only other thing I noticed on a second reading. It is pretty standard for a Cleric Domain to at level 8 to do either
Potent Spellcasting
Starting at 8th level, you add your Wisdom modifier to the damage you deal with any cleric cantrip.

OR

Divine Strike
At 8th level, you gain the ability to infuse your weapon strikes with the fiery power of the forge. Once on each of your turns when you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can cause the attack to deal an extra 1d8 fire damage to the target. When you reach 14th level, the extra damage increases to 2d8.

Not including that is odd for a cleric subclass and will definitely turn some heads.

DracoDei
2019-04-30, 07:18 PM
So you want them to be able to use reach weapons for the sake of more AoOs, but you don't want them to get the d10 damage dice? Simple give them whip at level 1 which is 1d4 and reach, it can be used with strength or dex. That should solve your issue. However, I don't see the issue with giving them 1d10 reach weapons since you have class features that are taking away their ability to attack and they need to forgo a shield to use them.
Okay, you've convinced me to bow to 5e's simplicity, instead of going for the fine detail I prefer. Have to think about if I will delay the non-whip stuff, only give whips, or give everything with Reach without limitations.
EDIT: Giving everything for the moment... gotta let the newcomers to the Domain ease into the idea of NOT attacking.


No you shouldn't include skipping spells that do damage, for the simple reason that its going to get really, really boring for the player who is using this ability if they can't do anything other than sit (or use the help action).
The idea was to steer them towards buffs during that time.

Well, there is also casting healing/recovery spells, Dodge (Defensive subclass!), and Disengage and Dash to get to where you need to be to keep screening the back-liners. Granted, buffing might only get you through one round (maybe two if you fail a Concentration check despite Advantage)... maybe one more round if you don't already have Warding Bond active on someone.

Hmmm... maybe put a hit-point cost on casting such spells? Disadvantage on spell to-hits, and enemies get Advantage against spells that directly target them, or deal damage except if on your allies?

Or I could go with "the carrot, rather than the stick", and let them cast an offensive spell whose effect would get tagged onto their next OO that HITS, and maybe would allow no save (perhaps only against its hit-point damage)? MAYBE even in ADDITION to if they wanted to spend a second slot on adding radiant damage and such? In any case, any unexpended spell could "rebate" its spell slot when the Channel Divinity ends (including if you end it early). Maybe change it so that in addition to the current options, you can dismiss Vicious Defense as a Bonus Action, or even a Reaction (if you don't need it anymore, you probably have a Reaction to spare...).

Maybe say that if they would IMMEDIATELY deal damage are they nerfed/disallowed? That way you can do battlefield control stuff, which can fall under "defense", just like your reach/OOs.

EDIT: Removed the restriction on spells, at least for the moment.
and to cast spells that deal damage, unless they target only your allies. This last clause would most commonly be a "thorns" effect, but if you have a spell that deals damage in exchange for a powerful buff then you could cast that.


As for the level 17 ability, include everyone. You are sharing the pain between everyone, it should include you as well. In no way should you increase the ability.
Okay. I assume you are specifically referring to its duration?

Your channel divinities last way to long as it is,
Hmmm.... you may be right!

A flat 1 minute seems a bit low. I might have it cap at 10, or make it equal to proficiency bonus or something.

Probably went over-board due to the Grace-Gift doing almost all their spells at-will (balanced by debuffing themselves and HUGE lack of offense, and a bit by the short durations).

so don't make this go nuts either. Refreshing on a short rest would be fine in my mind. That would make it happen more often and be more useful of an ability.
Okay.
EDIT: Done!


The only other thing I noticed on a second reading. It is pretty standard for a Cleric Domain to at level 8 to do either
Potent Spellcasting
Starting at 8th level, you add your Wisdom modifier to the damage you deal with any cleric cantrip.

OR

Divine Strike
At 8th level, you gain the ability to infuse your weapon strikes with the fiery power of the forge. Once on each of your turns when you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can cause the attack to deal an extra 1d8 fire damage to the target. When you reach 14th level, the extra damage increases to 2d8.

Not including that is odd for a cleric subclass and will definitely turn some heads.
Well, I'm certainly not going to give them any incentive to attack either with spells or weapons outside of OOs, and they already have all the bonuses they need for to-hit and damage on those!

Actually, never mind. I can totally put in those d8s as Radiant damage that applies to as many OOs as you hit with in a round, rather than just one like Divine Strike normally does. If I put that option first on the list then the comfort of the familiar will keep the eyebrows of objectors from rising too high, while keeping the eyebrows of people who like to see things mixed up appropriately elevated.
Yeah, going to do did that!

Maybe give a fifth option that lets them not take damage when spending a spell slot for radiant damage on Vicious Defense? Perhaps even let them heal for some small amount* each time they damage an enemy with an spell-slot-powered up Vicious Defense. Grace-Gift DID have a feat called Protector's Reward that let them heal for 1/4 the damage they inflicted with their defensive strikes. I could even reuse that as the name of the option. In the footnote I mentioned the Life Domain. Should copy another concept from that (its Channel Divinity: Preserve Life) and limit it to healing them to 1/2 their maximum?
*Proficiency bonus? 2*slot level? Or take it from the Life Domain and go with 2+slot level?
EDIT: Did this with 2+Slot level and the 1/2 max limitation.

Speaking of Vicious Defense, I assume that putting in a spoilered optional rule that lets you select the damage type that it deals, rather than every character dealing Radiant damage would NOT my chances in the voting? I am thinking some of the choices would only be available to certain alignments.
Good -> Radiant
Evil -> Necrotic
Law -> Cold*
Chaos-> Thunder
*Replacing the random swirling of water with the stability of ice... I can expound on this theme more if people don't quite get it.

The vengeful nature of Fire, the agonizing rebuke of Acid, and the divine judgement of Lightning would be available to all. If 5e's thematics* argue against limiting Radiant to Good, then either Lightning or Fire could be swapped for Radiant.
*Rather than merely it's precedents, although separating the two might be difficult.
EDIT: I've put this in, at least for now.

KOLE
2019-04-30, 10:22 PM
Quick note, I've updated the Mageblood.

It can now use its Silent Incantations feature Cha modifier times per long rest, as opposed to once a short/long rest. I've renamed the 9th level feature to Quickening Pulse and limited it to once a short/long rest, so a slight bump to one and a slight nerf to the other, balancing things out a bit.

I've updated the wording on Arcane Nemesis, hopefully clearing it up a bit and making it a bit more intuitive. I also gave it a fun little additional ability: one bullet point of the Skulker feat, except for ranged spell attacks.

I have also balanced Magical Evisceration a bit. Rather than being a guaranteed damage boost on a hit once per long rest, you now have to gamble by declaring the damage before the roll. I also cleaned up the wording and specified intent; rather than the unhelpful blanket statement about "Abiding by all other sneak attack rules". Now its a distinct thing that only references the damage, insuring it scales to 20 without any weirdness.

I'm a little skeptical of this change. I'm afraid I'm balancing a powerful ability by making it potentially annoying to use, but it feels right a Rogue subclass to have that "All-or-nothing" feel to it, and it's potent enough that I wanted a little extra limitation on it beyond "Once per long rest". The wording is a little clearer now to make sure it only applies to one target; so no one tried to get cute by upcasting Scorching Ray and trying to add sneak attack to multiple targets.

It's good; but most rogue subclasses get stupid good capstones. Scouts get a chance to get sneak attack off twice in one turn. This is a chance to tack on extra damage to a single target of a spell. What do you all think?

Ivellius
2019-05-03, 08:45 PM
I'm going to have basically no time to polish this at all (it's been end-of-semester busy for me the past few weeks), so let me put this query to the thread: if you have a Sorcerer borrowing what amounts to Cunning Action and Action Surge, what do you think is the best thematic / heritage? Quickling, maybe?

theVoidWatches
2019-05-03, 10:23 PM
Yeah, I could see that. Or just a general time-magic type thing - sorcerers don't need a specific kind of creature to descend from, after all.

Spitballing here, their higher level features could give bonuses with Slow/Haster, and a capstone could guarantee them max turns with time stop, or maybe let them cast spells on others twice before the spell ends?

Or maybe I should let you build your subclass. Sorry.

sengmeng
2019-05-04, 12:15 PM
Last minute entry: Path of the Spirit Vessel, a barbarian archetype employing pact magic. It's styled after the warlock, but the otherworldly patron is just "spirits."

If it's too late for feedback, I understand. I did this to myself.

DracoDei
2019-05-04, 06:16 PM
Reviews will follow, but first I want to mention a few changes to my entry and that while nickl_2000 was very kind to review my entry, a second (and third?) point of view would be nice.

I've continued to tweak things. Most importantly I added the following as an option at 6th class level (and thus also at 8th):
Take My Eyes, That You Might See. Take My Ears That You Might Hear:
This ability has two major options, each with sub-options. All target a single creature within 30', have a duration of Concentration, unless otherwise specified the maximum duration is 8 hours. The effect also ends if you and the target are ever separated by more than 30', or if the sense you give up* is restored to you. They also fail to manifest in the first place if you have immunity to the condition(s) that specific application would inflict on you.
*This includes if you gain blindsense while concentrating on the Eyes option.
Eyes: You go blind and have any blindsight you possess suppressed for the duration of this ability. Pick one of the following for the target:

They can see as normal for their species for the duration of this ability, even if born blind. If they are from a species with no sense of sight they gain the visual abilities of a human. Any pre-existing blindness effect is suppressed (but not removed) and they are immune to being blinded for the duration.
They has advantage on sight-based perception checks.
See Invisibility. This has a maximum duration of 1 hour.
Darkvision out to a range of 60 feet.
They gain low-light vision as an elf.
(You must have a cleric level of at least 13 to select this option.) True Seeing. This requires the normal material component, which is destroyed, but you can simply hold it, rather than having to apply it to the target. This has a maximum duration of 1 hour.


Ears: You go deaf for the duration of this ability. Pick one of the following:

They can hear for the duration of this ability, even if born deaf or from a species with no sense of hearing. Any pre-existing deafness effect is suppressed (but not removed) and they are immune to being deafened for the duration.
They have advantage on hearing-based perception checks.
Whenever they have both expertise and advantage of on hearing-based perception checks, they also gain Blindsense 5'. This has a maximum duration of 1 hour.


Once you have used any of these options you may not use this ability again until you have finished a long rest.

I'm still thinking about putting some sort of nerf on using offensive spells while under the effects of Vicious Defense. Maybe disallow spells that involve an attack roll, except for Bolt of Resilient Guidance?


Critique, working in REVERSE order (and skipping my own entry) so as to critique the stuff that has probably gotten the least review. Don't know how far I will get. Might do more in another post, or edited in to this one.


I assume you regain your spell slots on a short rest? You don't seem to specify anywhere.

You give the sorcerer progression of spells known. Given that the other columns top out at about what a warlock would get at 7th level, I would think that... actually never mind. Sorcerers seem to have the same "Spells Known" progression as warlocks, and that is what I would say the arcane trickster and eldritch knight are closest to being 1/3 casters OF.


To a few, the rage becomes too much to control, and they can regain their sanity by appealing to the shaman and his mysterious allies.
-Consider adding "only" before "regain", or otherwise editing to make this sound less casual at the end. Right now it has this weird vibe of: Oh, yeah, I'm going insane, but it is totally no big deal, really....



Spells Known of 1st-Level and Higher:

Given that Arcane Trickster and Eldritch Knight have to take most of their spells known from certain schools, I think you might want a similar limitation here. Perhaps simply say that only damaging and enemy-targeting spells can be cast in Rage, and then throw in some requirements to keep someone from hitting that level without having any such spells known? Probably want to add extra language to exclude stuff like Friends and Charm Person, although, say, Crown of Madness could fit, so you don't want to just go with "No Enchantments for that portion of your spells known".



Whenever you gain a level in this class, you can replace one of the warlock spells you know with another spell of your choice from the warlock spell list. The new spell must be of a level for which you have spell slots.

This last sentence sounds like it was taken from any spontaneous caster OTHER than a warlock, since they don't have spell slots of various levels, they just have a bunch at ONE spell level at any given class level. Try something like "The new spell must be of a level you can cast." or, if the multi-classing rules don't stop this from working smoothly, perhaps more akin to: "The new spell must be equal or lower in level than your spirit vessel slot level.".



You perform an hour long ritual which can be accomplished during a short rest, during which the weapon must be within your reach.

Do you also gain the usual benefits of that short rest, or are you just pointing out that the times line up nicely?

Is ritual casting of spells NORMALLY considered restful enough you can still roll hit dice to regain hitpoints and such? I don't happen to know.



If it is on the same plane of existence, you can summon that weapon to your hand as a bonus action, causing it to teleport instantly to your hand.

This is pretty nasty for getting weapons into the King's Court and other places you wouldn't normally be able to take one (at least without raising eyebrows).

Are you planning on adding a 14th level ability, or do you feel that balance is best served by not having one?
In the second case a paranethetical note in the same font as your ability title explaining that might be wise.



At 10th level, when you go into a rage and have no spell slots, you gain one spell slot.

Recovering 1/2 your spell slots seems like a pretty big deal. I know there are precedents for "If you are out of this resource, recover it when X" (Monk's Ki points for one), but it still could be... more powerful than expected. I guess it depends on how much of the power comes from the spells, and how much from the invocations. It would also be a lot weaker if you only normally recover your slots on a Long Rest, which would make this probably the main way you would recover the slots (and warlocks get them back on a Short Rest, so that ought to be fine?). Again, I don't know 5e well enough to say "This is/isn't a problem." with any sense of confidence, only to raise questions that might be worth thinking about.




((Skipping over my Self-Sacrifice Domain.))



Overall it isn't BAD, but it seems a little lacking in creativity given its similarity to Arcane Trickster. Probably unavoidable given the nature of being a 1/3 caster option for a rogue, but I still am less likely to vote for this than I might have been if you had picked a different pair of classes to work with.

Quickening Pulse is an interesting meeting place between metamagic and Cunning Action.

Arcane Nemesis: Being revealed if you HIT with a spell, but not if you MISS, seems like an odd distinction to make. Is there some sort of precedent I don't know about? I would also break the last sentence of this out into its own paragraph for clarity.

Does the capstone not work with, say, Magic Missile even if you target them all at a single target? Since you didn't HAVE to target that way. What if it is cast from a 1st level slot, but you hand a higher level one available (which would have given you more than one missile)? I realize that you don't want to give Sneak Attack more than once a spell*, but just saying you have to select one individual attack for it to apply to before you resolve any of them would seem sufficient to me.

*Although you could get two a round if you used Quickened Pulse? Not familiar enough with 5e to say for sure.)



While I was setting up spoilers for reviews I didn't happen to make at this time (but, again, might in an edit or separate post), I happened to notice things about two classes. Posting them, because "Why not?" even if it is out of the reverse order I am mostly going to be going in.
Soulsworn Archetype: I would recommend a larger font for the line with the name on it.

The Skald: Before the deadline you will want to remove the "Insert cool quote here!" bit, one way or another.

KOLE
2019-05-04, 07:28 PM
Overall it isn't BAD, but it seems a little lacking in creativity given its similarity to Arcane Trickster. Probably unavoidable given the nature of being a 1/3 caster option for a rogue, but I still am less likely to vote for this than I might have been if you had picked a different pair of classes to work with.

Fair enough! You have to be very careful with 1/3rd casters. They don't feel like they get much, but having full martial progression can quickly get out of hand if you slap too many good magic goodies on top. I tried to keep this restrained.


Arcane Nemesis: Being revealed if you HIT with a spell, but not if you MISS, seems like an odd distinction to make. Is there some sort of precedent I don't know about? I would also break the last sentence of this out into its own paragraph for clarity.

Yes! When a Rogue is hidden from a creature and then makes an attack on them, normally they are always revealed, hit or miss. The Skulker Feat, which is niche and rarely utilized, gives Rogues and Rangers a few niche goodies, including not being revealed by missing with a ranged attack. I thought it was a nice little ability to add without swaying balance too far one way or the other. Also, agreed on the last comment. The feature itself is a little messy. I'm planning on tweaking it to make it a little more clear.



Does the capstone not work with, say, Magic Missile even if you target them all at a single target?

By RAW, Magic Missile doesn't qualify. There's been some debate about Magic Missile that has been resolved by Sage Advice. It doesn't involve an attack roll therefore it isn't an attack. It's odd, certainly, but it's already plenty powerful by being an instant hit therefore I don't think it should be buffed any.


I realize that you don't want to give Sneak Attack more than once a spell*, but just saying you have to select one individual attack for it to apply to before you resolve any of them would seem sufficient to me.

This is a good point, I think I'll edit it to make it clearer.


*Although you could get two a round if you used Quickened Pulse? Not familiar enough with 5e to say for sure.)

Theoretically, if one could use Magical Evisceration multiple times, this would be correct. However, since its only once a long rest, and specifies it only effects one target, it cannot be used multiple times in a round, even if a Bloodmage theoretically had a way to cast two leveled spells a round. The wording keeps this feature from being used on a cantrip, and nobody can cast multiple leveled spells a turn unless they're using action surge.

SleeplessWriter
2019-05-05, 03:54 PM
I just updated Hedge Wizard with a 14th level feature that's sort of borrowing off of the Oath of the Ancients' channel divinity, just tweaked a few things around to make it fit better mechanically with the Hedge Wizard's intended playstyle. I also gave Herbalist's Magic a slight boost by giving them two sorcery points. It's already limited enough by the conversion rate, this just makes it immediately usable without going crazy, and it doesn't scale so it'll stay in line too.

Haven't been able to really do much for the last few weeks because of finals, so I wouldn't be opposed to an extension, anyone else willing.

Ivellius
2019-05-05, 09:23 PM
Haven't been able to really do much for the last few weeks because of finals, so I wouldn't be opposed to an extension, anyone else willing.

Same, though I think the only thing I'd tweak is sorcery point costs to what I just posted. It feels about right to me, but I'm open to feedback.

(If we don't get an extension, I'm perfectly fine with that.)

nickl_2000
2019-05-05, 09:25 PM
Doesn't matter to me either way. However, dang there have been a lot of entries in this contest!

DracoDei
2019-05-05, 10:45 PM
Doesn't matter to me either way. However, dang there have been a lot of entries in this contest!

I am also indifferent for the most part.

I guess I could use a few more days to ponder how to nerf offensive spell-casting while under the effects of Vicious Defense.

Vogie
2019-05-06, 07:57 AM
I'm going to have basically no time to polish this at all (it's been end-of-semester busy for me the past few weeks), so let me put this query to the thread: if you have a Sorcerer borrowing what amounts to Cunning Action and Action Surge, what do you think is the best thematic / heritage? Quickling, maybe?

Another option is something like the Kalashtar - their core is a being with 2 beings inside themselves, and you can fluff the "extra actions" via cunning & surge as the spirit/beings acting independent of each other

MoleMage
2019-05-06, 10:33 PM
Alright, while they weren't particularly committed requests, there were three requests for extension before the deadline yesterday. I'll push the end point of this contest out another two weeks. Voting now opens on May 20th. Sorry for the late post.

sengmeng
2019-05-07, 09:14 AM
Alright, while they weren't particularly committed requests, there were three requests for extension before the deadline yesterday. I'll push the end point of this contest out another two weeks. Voting now opens on May 20th. Sorry for the late post.

In that case, I've made some slight adjustments to Path of the Spirit Vessel. I know that the other 1/3 caster subclasses have restrictions on spell choices, but I don't feel that it makes the subclass better (nor should they be forced to take damaging spells by anything other than logic since they get enhancements to damage) and I believe pact magic is a bit weaker than regular spellcasting in general (yes, it recharges faster, but for a single strong encounter, they get 2 spells plus cantrips, and then they're done).

moonfly7
2019-05-07, 10:59 AM
So, just saw this and thought it was an AMAZING idea. whipped my subclass for the fighter together and entered it. It's based on a class idea I had a while back but never actually wrote up or posted. it was going to be called the copycat, all it did was take features from other classes, a multi classing class, if you will. I never built it for obvious reasons, but turning it into a fighter subclass made it very fun and, I think, very playable. Its called the Borrower, tell me what you think!

DracoDei
2019-05-07, 12:43 PM
Moonfly7:
Quick notes:
I think this class epitomizes the theme of the contest the most, at least in spirit. Technically it doesn't pull from a SINGLE class, but others have pulled from two classes (the two that give improved action economy to full-casters come to mind). However this being 5e, I'm not sure if that technicality is something the voters should/will observe.

If one ignores that, I would say that any negative aspect for its non-specificity reducing the degree of creativity required for your overall concept are more than counterbalanced by the difficulty of writing such a thing so it is balanced, even if one only considers pulling from PHB classes. Unfortunately, I have yet to obtain the breadth of mastery of 5e to say if you have succeeded or failed. If you have created something a bit too powerful, I would recommend reversing the levels at which the 3rd and 7th level abilities are gained.


Now for the less interesting, but, unfortunately, perhaps even more important, aspect: Formatting.

Rather than centering your sub-class and ability titles, I recommend copying someone else's formatting for them. Either:

Press "Reply with Quote" on whichever you like in the contest thread, then copy the relevant bits of formatting into a text file, then click the back button or close the tab so you don't actually reply. After that edit your entry with it.
Copy the below formattings directly from this post without using the reply+cancel trick I mentioned above and use them to edit your entry. This formatting is the one I used. My intent was to match the typography in the PHB reasonably closely.
((Insert Subclass Title Here))
((Insert Ability Name Here))


Everyone:
Having found a discussion of Booming Blade in an online blog I can see how it could be cheese in combination with Vicious Defense. Currently I'm tending toward rewording such that anything that involves an attack roll (other than Bolt of Resilient Guidance) will be disallowed in combination with Vicious Defense. Maybe also a -2 to your spell save DCs OR granting Advantage on saves against your spells?

Again, watch for edits of this post, or additional posts for additional reviews.

moonfly7
2019-05-07, 03:10 PM
thanks for the advice, I might not do the formatting (cause I'm lazy:}) But I really appreciate the help

gloryblaze
2019-05-09, 04:44 AM
Been too long since I entered one of these! Last one was the pop culture reference one, I think? Was glad to see there was a contest open for submissions going on.

Speaking of pop culture references, my submission (the Battledancer Conclave) draws heavily from the Dancer class from the Fire Emblem video games (as well as borrowing its core mechanic from the bard, as per the contest theme).

Design notes:

The additional spells are meant to emphasize bardliness. They're are all bard spells, of course - dissonant whispers and compulsion are bard-only in terms of main spell list, but warlocks can snipe them with GOO patron and an invocation, respectively. Enthrall is also bard/warlock only. Hypnotic Pattern emphasizes this ranger's role as a party supporter, and Dominate Person is the only 5th-level PHB bard spell that really fits in with the rest. Dissonant Whispers and Compulsion are also both spell that allows other party members to make off-turn attacks by forcing enemies to provoke OAs, which is sort of a theme for this subclass.

Natural Grace is meant to encourage/enable building STRangers, since this class requires melee combat for its offensive features. Go ahead and grab GWM or Polearm Master or whatever - you deserve it in exchange for being kinda locked out of some otherwise neat ranger stuff like Lightning Arrow and Swift Quiver. Also, Inspiration competes with PAM for a bonus action, so the minor anti-synergy should help stave off overpoweredness. The 11th level feature is also antisynergetic with GWM's -5/+10 ability, since it rewards accuracy by requiring that you hit with your first attack to proc the additional attack.

Inspiration is as per the bard feature, but always one die size behind (2 sizes at 10th level, since Ranger 10 doesn't grant a subclass feature). The subclass also doesn't get its Font of Inspiration equivalent until 7th level instead of 5th. These balances should hopefully prevent the subclass from overshadowing any actual bards in the party.

Song of Vigor is the main reason I wanted to build this subclass - I wanted to make a FE Dancer subclass, but granting at will off-turn attacks is kind of bonkers. Revised Ranger is the only class that can potentially make it work, because it's a martial class that gets Extra Attack, which is essentially the martials' major tier 2 damage boost, as a subclass feature. EA is one of the only (nearly) equivalently strong always-on abilities in the game. This ability is potentially much stronger than Extra Attack (mostly because of rogues/sneak attack), but it has two main limitations in that both the Battledancer and the beneficiary have to be engaged in melee combat when it's used. This means that to get that juicy extra Sneak Attack, the squishy rogue has to disregard his bonus action disengage and tough it out in melee.

7th level for rangers is just about universally a defense boost, so that's what Battledancers get too. It also felt like the right place for Font of Inspiration (after bards get it, but not too far after). Because you're sort of getting 2 features for 1 here, the defensive benefit isn't always on. It also requires that your party stays grouped up in a nice, AoE-vulnerable way. Gonna make you use that +1 to saves!

11th level feature for rangers is similarly near-universal across subclasses, this time a DPR boost. Battledancer's is balanced against Stalker's Flurry. Stalker's Flurry triggers if you miss at least once. Primal Duet triggers if you and your partner both hit. At a 70% hit rate for the attackers, which feels roughly average (for my games, at least), the two abilities are roughly equal (%chance that you miss at least one of two attacks= 51%, %chance that you and a friend both hit= 49%). However, because I think that Song of Vigor has the potential to be stronger than Extra Attack, I made sure that SF has clear upsides compared to Primal Duet. SF grows in strength with enemy AC, so it gets better in tougher fights when it's needed more. Also, Primal Duet requires that at least one of your allies be in melee with the same target as you, and if it dies to one of your attacks before Primal Duet procs, you can't transfer the Primal Duet attack to a new target the way you could transfer an Extra Attack.

Finally, 15th level is also almost always defensive for rangers. Sometimes-on magic resistance seemed like an interesting idea, as it (like the 7th-level feature) helps with resisting AoE but also encourages bunching up and becoming more vulnerable to AoE. It's an ability that essentially makes itself relevant by encouraging the player to be in situations where it will come up more often.

EDIT: Just finished reading the other contest submissions and - yikes! - noticed that there's already another subclass that borrows Bardic Inspiration with a 1-size die reduction. I do think Bardic Inspiration is sort of the "obvious" thing to borrow from the bard, but I guess great minds think alike on the die size reduction. I hope my subclass is different enough to stand on its own, but I can withdraw it from the contest if necessary.

thisdude9001
2019-05-09, 02:55 PM
Dipped my toe into the contest with my Forbidden Knowledge subclass for the wizard. Nice mix of wizard and Great old ones wouldn't mind some input and the fluff is on the grill.

MoleMage
2019-05-09, 03:16 PM
EDIT: Just finished reading the other contest submissions and - yikes! - noticed that there's already another subclass that borrows Bardic Inspiration with a 1-size die reduction. I do think Bardic Inspiration is sort of the "obvious" thing to borrow from the bard, but I guess great minds think alike on the die size reduction. I hope my subclass is different enough to stand on its own, but I can withdraw it from the contest if necessary.

I wouldn't worry about it. We are now up to 21 entries, meaning that some duplication is inevitable especially for this theme. As for your class, as well as the Mageblood, Self-Sacrifice Domain, Spirit Vessel, Quickblood, Borrower, and Battledancer, I'll put some feedback up tomorrow afternoon.

DracoDei
2019-05-09, 04:27 PM
I wouldn't worry about it. We are now up to 21 entries, meaning that some duplication is inevitable especially for this theme. As for your class, as well as the Mageblood, Self-Sacrifice Domain, Spirit Vessel, Quickblood, Borrower, and Battledancer, I'll put some feedback up tomorrow afternoon.
I look forward to it!

Would be probably have done some reviews myself today if it weren't for a cold that has hit me pretty hard. I've got my weekly game tomorrow or the next day (it seems like it jumps around more than a toad on a hot skillet*).
*Or some other "country-ism", as AJ would say...

When you get to mine, my current largest thoughts/questions are:

Should I replace one or both of the class level 7 spells with Greater Invisibility and/or Stoneskin? Those are from an "Arcane" list rather than Paladin, so it seems like it would bump the power up, and I am currently thinking that would be a bad thing.

Then again, if we are supposed to be balancing for average, rather than super-skillful players the tactical forethought required, or the reluctance of the average player to use a lot of the options might reduce the power level. Or should we instead assume that anyone who actually takes the domain will be willing and probably even able to use it more than minimally?
Is there a buff, especially a Concentration-duration one, I could replace Greater Restoration with?
What is the power level of Readied Defense? Should I cap it at, say, x5 to x10 the original spell's duration before you have to "use it or lose it"?
Come to that, how is balance for all of the 6th and/or 8th level choices looking? Should I move some of the 6th level ones to 8th level, or even into a "Director's Cut of Advanced Options" Spoiler to give fewer choices? Perhaps only give 3 choices (what a lot sub-classes get when they get to pick from a list)? If so, which ones? Should I remove or further delay the True Seeing ability you can grant with Take My Eyes, That You Might See. Take My Ears, That You Might Hear.?

As a somewhat separate issue, which of the options look the most FUN to play?


Please excuse any errors either here and/or that I may have recently added to the entry. As I said: I haz a cold.

moonfly7
2019-05-10, 06:14 AM
So I'm looking to rename the Borrower to something that sounds more like a subclass for the fighter, any suggestions?

Vogie
2019-05-10, 08:16 AM
So I'm looking to rename the Borrower to something that sounds more like a subclass for the fighter, any suggestions?

Maybe name it after the Taskmaster, the Midnighter, or another one of the Intuitive Aptitude/Ability Learning superheroes.

thisdude9001
2019-05-10, 08:38 AM
moonfly7 maybe Deft, Adept or Expert? fancy adroit



So not on the dot following warlocks but I feel like this gets out the idea of how Warlocks should be. There's more original abilities rather than just stealing them off of warlocks stuff. The invocations are a bit wonky and I'm wanting to make it so that the player gets some sort of object (such as a Book of Shadows) but it seems like this is already packed on early with features.

Should I switch out some sort of book of shadows for the second second level feature?

post for convenience (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23899236&postcount=22)

moonfly7
2019-05-10, 08:38 AM
Maybe name it after the Taskmaster, the Midnighter, or another one of the Intuitive Aptitude/Ability Learning superheroes.
That.....is an amazing idea, I like the taskmaster. But wouldn't that make it sound like I'm just trying to put the taskmaster into dnd?

Crisis21
2019-05-10, 08:45 AM
That.....is an amazing idea, I like the taskmaster. But wouldn't that make it sound like I'm just trying to put the taskmaster into dnd?

"If it walk like duck, and talk like duck... is truth serum."

- Ant Man & The Wasp

Vogie
2019-05-10, 09:33 AM
That.....is an amazing idea, I like the taskmaster. But wouldn't that make it sound like I'm just trying to put the taskmaster into dnd?

Maybe. Alternatively, hunt down whatever the Taskmaster calls their ability, or how they describe themselves in the comics and other media.

Names have power - they can direct how a player understands the PC. If you named your Borrower a "CopyCat" or "Martial Adopter", it'd invoke a different idea if you called it a "Mooch"



"If it walk like duck, and talk like duck... is truth serum."

- Ant Man & The Wasp

Do you guys just put the word 'quantum' in front of everything?? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?563971-Roguish-Archetype-based-on-Ant-Man-amp-The-Wasp-Quantum-Trickster-(PEACH))

thisdude9001
2019-05-10, 09:49 AM
Went ahead and did it. Some sort of critique would be nice though.

DracoDei
2019-05-10, 11:49 AM
Maybe. Alternatively, hunt down whatever the Taskmaster calls their ability, or how they describe themselves in the comics and other media.
[/URL]
I believe he calls it "Photographic Muscle-Memory"? Of course, given the nature of comics he may have called it several different things throughout the decades. Too bad that particular name is anachronistic. Perhaps "Perfect Observational Muscle Memory", or dropping one of those first two words?

Went ahead and did it. Some sort of critique would be nice though.
I'd be quicker to comment on other's work in general, despite the cold, if it weren't for being new to the analytical side of most of 5e.

sengmeng
2019-05-10, 12:09 PM
I believe he calls it "Photographic Muscle-Memory"? Of course, given the nature of comics he may have called it several different things throughout the decades. Too bad that particular name is anachronistic. Perhaps "Perfect Observational Muscle Memory", or dropping one of those first two words?

Black Mage says "photographic reflexes." (https://www.nuklearpower.com/2006/01/14/episode-648-task-mastery/)

Crisis21
2019-05-10, 12:41 PM
Do you guys just put the word 'quantum' in front of everything?? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?563971-Roguish-Archetype-based-on-Ant-Man-amp-The-Wasp-Quantum-Trickster-(PEACH))

That is awesome! Do you know of any other Avengers-themed archetypes? Iron Man would totally be an Artificer methinks. Hulk's obviously a Barbarian, Captain America's a shield-specialized Fighter, and I think Thor might be a Paladin.

moonfly7
2019-05-10, 01:24 PM
moonfly7 maybe Deft, Adept or Expert?

post for convenience (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23899236&postcount=22)
I like adept or deft, might do a variation on those. Adapt master could also be good maybe.

moonfly7
2019-05-10, 01:25 PM
Or perhaps fluid adept

DracoDei
2019-05-10, 05:14 PM
I've thrown in a phrase on Selfless Sacrifice so you don't lose advantage on the concentration saving throws that the 1st level ability gives you proficiency and advantage in.

Or perhaps fluid adept
Might have been more polite to edit your previous post, rather than making a new one.

EDIT: And now I added a spoiler for GMs with a single sentence suggestion in it.

gloryblaze
2019-05-10, 06:16 PM
That is awesome! Do you know of any other Avengers-themed archetypes? Iron Man would totally be an Artificer methinks. Hulk's obviously a Barbarian, Captain America's a shield-specialized Fighter, and I think Thor might be a Paladin.

Middle Finger of Vecna has a paladin oath (https://mfov.magehandpress.com/2017/11/oath-of-storms.html?m=1) based on Thor

MoleMage
2019-05-10, 08:33 PM
Took me longer to write up than I anticipated and I got a late afternoon start, but the promised feedback is here!




I don't have any balance concerns with this class at all, actually. I think you've plugged any leaks pretty well before I got here. I will say that the early features feel a little uninteresting, but with access to everything on the sorcerer spell list it probably covers any lack of features with interesting spells.

One concern for Magical Evisceration: the Sorcerer spell list offers very little that qualifies for this. At a glance, I only found three spells that qualify for this, all first-level (Witch Bolt, Chromatic Orb, and Ray of Sickness). I would consider opening this up to cantrips; it wouldn't be out of line considering its one per day limitation.



You had previously said that you were fairly new to 5e homebrewing, so some of my notes will mention what typical expectations in 5e are. These are, of course, mostly guidelines (and unofficial ones at that), but it will hopefully be helpful to you in building a frame of reference. These expectations will be in dark green unless I forget to format them.

First, your specific questions:


Should I replace one or both of the class level 7 spells with Greater Invisibility and/or Stoneskin? Those are from an "Arcane" list rather than Paladin, so it seems like it would bump the power up, and I am currently thinking that would be a bad thing.
Is there a buff, especially a Concentration-duration one, I could replace Greater Restoration with?
What is the power level of Readied Defense? Should I cap it at, say, x5 to x10 the original spell's duration before you have to "use it or lose it"?
Come to that, how is balance for all of the 6th and/or 8th level choices looking? Should I move some of the 6th level ones to 8th level, or even into a "Director's Cut of Advanced Options" Spoiler to give fewer choices? Perhaps only give 3 choices (what a lot sub-classes get when they get to pick from a list)? If so, which ones? Should I remove or further delay the True Seeing ability you can grant with Take My Eyes, That You Might See. Take My Ears, That You Might Hear.?



1. I think the spells you have here are fine. Neither Greater Invisibility nor Stoneskin gives me the vibe of "I'm doing this so you don't have to suffer", and Greater Invisibility is in fact a very aggressive option (stoneskin less so, but it encourages your allies to put themselves in danger, which seems to go against the grain of this class).
2. Telepathic Bond, maybe? It isn't concentration, but neither is it self-only like Dispel Evil and Good or Antilife Shell. 5th level is pretty bare for buff spells.
3. Concentration is hotly contested in the 5e buffing game, so Readied Defense is fine just requiring the Concentration while withheld.
4. 8th level Cleric domains should give Divine Strike or Potent Cantrip (all existing domains give one or the other). I think that overall, you should narrow down the number of options and special conditions on things; there are a lot of them and 5e tends to favor simpler character options. That said, the fact that the game is too unvaried is one of the primary complaints about it so some people will see the introduction of extra complexity as a bonus.

Now, to the rest of the domain. Overall, I feel like you have tried to put a whole base class into a clerical domain (I realize that a lot didn't make the cut, but this is an incredibly bulky domain, feature wise). I recommend reducing the number of options and special clauses across the whole thing. Some specifics:


Many of your features have short rest refresh. Other than Channel Divinity, Clerics are typically long-rest refresh on features.



Conditional armor proficiency. I saw above that you did it deliberately because thematically it is important that they not be hindering themselves in case they need to hurry for a life-saving emergency, but it would honestly be less strange to me if you gave them heavy armor proficiency and the ability to ignore move speed reduction from armor, rather than heavy armor proficiency as long as they don't suffer reduction. If it is that essential that they get heavy armor but not that heavy armor, borrow the wording from Druids' metal armor restriction: "[Clerics of this domain] will not wear armor [that would slow them down]."
Likewise, giving a free skill proficiency or a free cantrip would be perfectly acceptable for a cleric domain at 1st level. As a player I would rather see "You know the spare the dying cantrip. It does not count against your cleric cantrips known." or free Medicine proficiency than the requirements in how I build. (5e expectation: Classes will only add to the player's choices, never subtract or restrict them).
The first level Concentration bonus is also very specific, but of the three it's the one I'm most okay with because it tells me what to expect mechanically from this class (I'm going to be casting concentration buffs that affect my allies but not me), unlike the other two which give me part of something or even take away one of my choices.



At 2nd level, I recommend limiting it to one Channel Divinity option (as other cleric domains get). I also will note that for the most part, durations in 5e are static rather than level based (Wild Shape is the only exception that comes to mind off the top of my head).
Vicious Defense does too much all at once. Even with the drawback, clerics still have access to a lot of non-attack roll offensive options (including their iconic damage cantrip sacred flame), and the damage cap on their smite is higher than the paladin's.



At 6th level, I feel like there are too many choices here. If you want to do the advanced options spoiler that would be okay too, Totem Barbarians have had extra options added by splat books and I would see an advanced options spoiler in a similar light.
Carry the Burden: The clause about dividing the weight is a little hard to parse. A similar (though slightly more powerful) but easier to parse version: "For each potential target of fly which you did not use, divide the weight you gain by 2." If you like, you could add "to a minimum of 1/16th the original weight." to put a lower bound on this.
Gift of Time: This is okay, though I would limit it to Wisdom Mod for uses (no proficiency bonus). It is potentially exploitable, but frankly the situations where it would be exploited would probably be better served by the cleric getting a turn.
Take my Eyes: The sub-effects could probably be changed to level-scaling. For example, the eyes option: "For the duration, you become blind, and the target's vision is enhanced. They gain Darkvision to 60 feet,immunity to the blinded condition, and advantage on Wisdom(Perception) checks involving sight, even if they are not normally capable of sight. If you are at least 10th level, they also gain the benefits of the See Inivisibility spell for the duration. If you are at least 15th level, they also gain the benefits of the True Seeing spell for the duration." I will also note that in 5e, blindsense and blindsight are not differentiated, and low-light vision no longer exists (it's now part of Darkvision).
Mob-Halting Reflexes: Either too niche (if you are a backlines cleric) or too strong (getting 3-6 boosted accuracy opportunity attacks a turn with Divine Strike and the Vicious Defense super-Smite). The issue here isn't in breaking with 5e's speed of play, but with expectations about how much a given character can do in a given time frame.
Readied Defense I discussed above. Giving up concentration for it is sufficiently large a setback to justify its uses, especially considering it still consumes the spell slot. The wording could use a little clean up ("provides a beneficial effect to in an area" looks like an editing typo) and I do think that making an example is a good idea, but it's fine as-is. One note about reactions in 5e: They are just that, reactions. They almost always (possibly always in official materials but I'm going to hedge) require a stimulus (When X, you may Y as a reaction).



At 8th level, every other existing Domain in 5e gives one of the following effects (no choice, it's domain-specific):
Divine Strike: Once on each of your turns, when you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can cause the attack to deal an additional 1d8 [type] damage. When you reach 14th level, the extra damage increases to 2d8.
Potent Spellcasting: You add your Wisdom modifier to the damage you deal with any cleric cantrip.


That said, I actually like your variation of Divine Strike, and would recommend that instead of getting options at this level, you get just that.
Protector's Reward turns Vicious Defense's smite effect into a crazy-efficient way to deal a lot of damage really quickly. Combined with Mob-Halting Reflexes, a whip (for finesse), and a high dexterity score, it just deals too much damage.



Band of Brothers is a good capstone. The Warding Bond restriction is probably unnecessary.
Stoic Casting is probably not necessary; from level 1 you had proficiency and advantage on the important spells.


Overall, this class has a lot (too much in my opinion) going on, and it has roughly three different identities which vary based on choices (A: I give something up, and you gain something, B: I use concentration buffs on other people, C: I make opportunity attacks to keep enemies from reaching my allies). I recommend picking one of those three to focus on and trimming features from the other two out.



I have to say, the number of "pact magic" style subclasses in this contest makes me happy. I feel like it was an underutilized mechanic in the base game.


Not going to say much about spellcasting; it looks like this is just 1/3rd progression translated for warlock casting. I notice you left off restrictions on spell school, which I agree with due to the extremely limited warlock list.
Invocation requirements: Do Barbarians count as having any pacts or patrons? Can they swap out invocations when they gain a level or new invocation, as warlocks can? Other than that, it's good. Invocations other than the eldritch blast modifiers and pact blade modifiers tend to be utilitous anyway; nothing game-breaking.
Spirit Weapon: I like the part about dealing force damage in a rage.
Spell Rage: It's worth noting that spells with attack rolls can already critically hit and double all of their dice per the standard critical hit rules. Allowing them to benefit from brutal critical is good through. Does it also scale with brutal critical's additional bonus dice?
Spirit's Protection: "Negative status" is kind of open ended. Maybe something like "One spell or condition (other than exhausted) currently affecting you" instead?
Spirit Master: I would limit the spell slots regained per day. Maybe "once you have used this feature, you cannot use it again until you have completed a long rest", but make it give you both of your slots instead of just one? At this level, barbarians have 5 rages. Assuming 2 short rests per day as suggested in the DMG, this would turn 6 slots into as many as 11 if you tried to time rages based on your spell usage, or semi-reliably turns 6 slots into 9 (assuming you managed to trigger it once per short rest).


I like it. It's got everything I'd want in a spellcasting barbarian except maybe resistance to magical effects and bearbarian already locked that down.



Huh, I hadn't thought of or seen a speed based sorcerer before, but with your fluff it seems like the most logical thing.


Fast Fingers is a good utility ability. I feel like losing the ability when you cast a 1st level or higher spell is unnecessary (Help and Use an Item are underutilized and most tool use happens out of combat anyway).
Speedforce Surge: Is there a limit other than my available sorcery points to the number of actions I can take on a given turn? Any restrictions on what actions I can use with it (like Haste)? I can easily see myself playing this class and routinely dumping 1st and 2nd level slots to points to drop 2 cantrips and a quickened spell in a round, but I'm also giving up resource efficiency in order to do it so it's probably in a good place.
Jittery: Fine, if a little odd (climbing and swimming are typically associated with strength rather than speed).
True Quickener: As with Speedforce Surge, is there a per-turn limit? Can I combine with Speedforce Surge to cast 3 full spells in a turn (2 points for the first quickened spell, Level points for the second spell as an action, then Level+3 for a Speedforce Surge True Quickened spell?). The temporary hit points are pretty small for such a short duration, but also seem secondary so it's probably fine.


Overall, the class is nice, compact, and clearly themed. One concern I have is that the capstone relies on the Sorcerer picking Quicken Spell or one of the fairly limited list of sorcerer spells that has a native casting time of a bonus action; it's entirely possible for a character to accidentally be unable to use their capstone. You could fix this by removing the bonus action requirement (allowing it to trigger using just Speedforce Surge) or by giving Quicken Spell as a "free" metamagic earlier in the class.



Well, I guess there's using the theme and then there's embodying the theme. You chose to do the latter. I like this as an idea; and actually wouldn't mind seeing this for other classes as a sort of alternate multiclassing.


Writing style note: when you choose a feature from a class, "which that class gains at 2nd level or lower" looks better than "that that class gains at 2nd level or lower". Also, some of your commas need to be upgraded to new sentences.
Knowledge Gained seems fairly exploitation-proof as written. Kudos, that must have been pretty difficult to manage given how broadly applicable it is.
Intensive Study and Careful Observance are as straight-forward as they come and well within balance.
Masterful Replication: Why couldn't I use this to progress a previously taken feature? Not automatically, but I feel like it would be nice to choose Sneak Attack at 3rd level, and then at 15th level choose Sneak Attack again and get a better version of Sneak Attack (as opposed to choosing Sneak Attack and it improves because I've chosen Cunning Action).
Temporary Replication: Can it duplicate spells? If so, what are the rules on spell slot level? Does it duplicate the feature at the level they have it or a flat level a la Knowledge Gained/Masterful Replication?



I like this class, but I wish there was some way to improve the features I borrowed. Right now the optimum picks are pretty much Barbarian Rage and Uncanny Dodge, as they scale through synergy with other features, while other picks like Divine Smite are entirely unusable (no spell slots). Overall though, you've got very clean mechanics and a fun theme, which is more important (and there are a lot of choices to mix and match).



Given your description, I think another name that incorporates more nature (Gladesong Conclave, Wilddancer Conclave) would be cool.


Natural Grace: Rangers are already Dex+Wis based, so allowing Wis substitution for Dex seems odd.
Battledancer Inspiration: Downstepped Bardic Inspiration. It's fine, and I guess explains why you allow Wis to AC (so you can get more Inspiration Dice).
Song of Vigor: The safest way to introduce FE style dancing to DnD. It's good. Might be a little strong with a rogue teammate, but it also forces them into melee.
Harmonic Resonance: I almost missed the short rest refresh on dice here, and was going to comment. It's a good feature if you can get your teammates on board with it, but the short rest refresh makes it worthwhile even if you have that one guy who can't hold on to his die for more than one round.
Primal Duet: A nice conditional extra attack.
Rhythm of the Wilds: So like Countersong, but usable? Glorious!



I really like this class's theme (the names fit, the description fits) and features, but Battledancer doesn't seem to fit the rest, as I noted at the top of this block. Good work!



Wizardlock! If you haven't been keeping up with the chat thread, this was one that I wanted to try but couldn't figure out, so I'm happy you did.


Boons of Knowledge: It's odd that you can get Pact of the Tome features one level before your lender class could. Other than that, it's a fine feature. Can you swap invocations out at any point (like when you gain a level or when you gain a new invocation?).
Knowledge from the Shadows: Are the additional spells restricted in any way (do they have to be for levels you can cast, IE first level, or only rituals, or anything like that?). I don't necessarily agree with the additional spells on top of the cantrips; that budges in on the Bard's Magical Secrets exclusivity.
Guardians of Knowledge: Do the tentacles have to appear in empty spaces? Can hostile creatures move through them? Since they don't deal damage, the only concern I have is that they might turn into a mini-wall too easily otherwise.
Bringer of Madness: This should probably be a long rest recharge only. Frightened isn't the strongest condition (too much is immune to it), but that duration is really good. I might even restrict this to one use per long rest (and give it level scaling instead of a spell slot requirement).
Trip to the Far Realm: A weaker GOO themed version of Hurl Through Hell, so I guess it's fine for balance. I agree with the long rest recharge here.



This is one of the few subclasses here that really took two distinct themes and turned them into a third, related but unique, theme, and I think that's excellent. Other than what I mentioned above I would give it a thorough proofreading, and I think you'll be in a pretty good place.

moonfly7
2019-05-10, 09:42 PM
Well, I guess there's using the theme and then there's embodying the theme. You chose to do the latter. I like this as an idea; and actually wouldn't mind seeing this for other classes as a sort of alternate multiclassing.


Writing style note: when you choose a feature from a class, "which that class gains at 2nd level or lower" looks better than "that that class gains at 2nd level or lower". Also, some of your commas need to be upgraded to new sentences.
Knowledge Gained seems fairly exploitation-proof as written. Kudos, that must have been pretty difficult to manage given how broadly applicable it is.
Intensive Study and Careful Observance are as straight-forward as they come and well within balance.
Masterful Replication: Why couldn't I use this to progress a previously taken feature? Not automatically, but I feel like it would be nice to choose Sneak Attack at 3rd level, and then at 15th level choose Sneak Attack again and get a better version of Sneak Attack (as opposed to choosing Sneak Attack and it improves because I've chosen Cunning Action).
Temporary Replication: Can it duplicate spells? If so, what are the rules on spell slot level? Does it duplicate the feature at the level they have it or a flat level a la Knowledge Gained/Masterful Replication?



I like this class, but I wish there was some way to improve the features I borrowed. Right now the optimum picks are pretty much Barbarian Rage and Uncanny Dodge, as they scale through synergy with other features, while other picks like Divine Smite are entirely unusable (no spell slots). Overall though, you've got very clean mechanics and a fun theme, which is more important (and there are a lot of choices to mix and match).



1. thank you so much for the input, it really is gonna help.

2. I thought a progressed feature might be to over powered you know? like giving too much of the class to another class. But I was teetering on that anyway, I'll fix that.

3. Yes, it can duplicate spells. It takes the spell that the caster you chose just cast, and casts the same spell again at the same level. With the abilities, you mimic it at the level they used it at, so a level 14 rogues sneak attack you mimic using Temporary Replication is done as if a level 14 rogue does it, so at the level of the creature you mimic. I'll add that to the subclass.

As for scaling the abilities you mimicked as you grow, I'm not sure how to do that and still be balanced. If anyone has a suggestion on that I'll gladly take it. I suppose for things like divine smite I could add a one use thing that lets you do it once at its base without a spell slot. But personally, I think that might be maybe to much. you could always take spell casting first then divine smite if you wanted it. Someone let me know if they think I should do something like I suggested for features like divine smite.

I think I have the new name for the subclass: either Replicator Adept or Adept Replicator. I'll take votes/flat suggestions on which is better.

KOLE
2019-05-10, 10:52 PM
One concern for Magical Evisceration: the Sorcerer spell list offers very little that qualifies for this. At a glance, I only found three spells that qualify for this, all first-level (Witch Bolt, Chromatic Orb, and Ray of Sickness). I would consider opening this up to cantrips; it wouldn't be out of line considering its one per day limitation.


First of all, thanks for the review. Since we've gotten an extension I will be doing some more tweaking; cleaning up features. I don't know why I was at first adverse to having it for cantrips as well, I guess I wanted it to have more cost to making the gamble, but I think can be a little more lenient. I was also surprised to see how few ranged attack spells their were on the Sorcerer list; I recall there being more! I'm adjusting it to accommodate this.

So many entries! This is awesome. Here's my words of feedback...


I've thought about a subclass like this before, and I love your implementation. It's well put together and reads very officially. I like your implementation of hit dice and exhaustion, it's thematic and in my opinion helps balance things out.

I feel like you should specify Warding Bond also doesn't require the material components, unless it's intentional that you want it. I feel like Beast Bond would be a more appropriate spell here, but I can see where you're coming from. I feel like Revised Beasts already get enough buffs from your prof modifier, so Warding Bond might be just a little too much. I dislike the finickiness of your companion not getting magical attacks if it has Warding Bond. I'd just give it to them for free, as a small separate feature at this level. It's not really something that effects balance and just makes unneeded complication.

"You can see through your Companion's eyes at all times while retaining your own vision." This is a bit confusing and I feel like it could be a hassle for players and DMs alike. I'd give them the same benefits as the Chainlock invocation instead.

"If both you and your Companion are adjacent to the same enemy, you can spend your Bonus Action to cause your next attack in the same turn to have Advantage against that creature." This is very thematic and appropriate for this level, I like that. It's a bit tedious; I'd simplify it to "If both you and your companion are adjacent to the same enemy, you can use your bonus action to have the next attack against that enemy to be made with Advantage." This opens it up to be used by you, your animal companion, or help your allies out a little.

Guardian of the Pack is solid! That's the kind of capstone that would get me excited to be a Barbarian! I would remove the footer of Raging if you weren't already, though. I feel like it was thematic decision, but not really necessary.


The first thing I noticed was that Gaseous Form felt really out of place; but after looking at every 3rd level spell not already on the Ranger spell list, I can't see anything that would be appropriate. Maybe Fear? But it's fine. I was also worried that Polymorph would be a little strong, but seeing that the other Ranger Magic lists have a darn good 4th level spell on them, I think you're perfectly in line here. I really like the spell list here.

As for the Wild Shape feature itself- there's not much I can say. It's well thought out, and thorough. I personally feel it's a little TOO thorough. I feel like you were trying to fix Wildshape itself with this; make it more thematic and interesting. That's fine, but I dislike the extra complication. I try not to force thematic decisions in a 'Brew. A wildshaping ranger who uses the skins of his enemies is a great character. It doesn't necessarily need to be baked into the subclass itself. If you kept all the other restrictions in place and axed the extra book keeping of finding and keeping skins and rolling to see if they're destroyed, I still think this is good and balanced. That being said, this is your Brew and clearly your decision, that's perfectly fine.

I would nix favored form, however, as it feels like another layer of complication. Otherwise, I would tie the number of times you can turn into it as equal to your wisdom modifier or prof bonus. I don't like the idea of at will wild shaping, even for a CR0 form. That's a lot of scouting, and without limit just becomes the default tactic of choice.

Monstrous form also feels really complicated and I'm struggling to see how useful it would be. Do you have to don it at the end of the hour? It feels like you do. I dislike giving a player an open ended option with a laundry list of chances, exceptions, and limitations. It really kills the usefulness, and feels very unintuitive. I think this should go back to the drawing board. Maybe taking the form of a Lycanthrope for an hour?

I really appreciate that you specified when Wild Shape improves in their own separate sections. It's clean and helpful for a player. I love the Smite feature, it feels like it would be really fun and useful for this subclass.

I like the capstone a lot! I would however have the fly speed as a separate section at the same level- if only because it feels weird to have one part of the feature say "At Will" and another say "Once per short or long rest"

All in all, I think this has strong potential. It's very iconic and feels like a great Ranger that I'd be eager to play.

I actually don't have anything to say here. I really like this. It's very well put together and feels pretty balanced. It instantly strike a thematic chord and is packed with goodies that I'd love to have on a Fighter. Special shout out to the capstone. That's a terrific feature!


First of all, I love the theme. I enjoy 1/3rd casters and like the idea of a Druid Fighter. It's fun! That being said, I think the Shillelagh feature is crazy good, probably too good.

My reasons for this:
-First of all, the subclass is too front loaded. You're getting three great features in one level. Spellcasting is almost strong enough to be its own feature. Notice the EK and AT mostly get ribbons in addition to it. They're useful ribbons, sure, but not gamechangers like you've introduced here. So having Spellcasting, Bonus prof, and the Shillelagh feature is too much. Pick two.

The Shillelagh feature is too much, and it combos really well with almost every option the fighter has, and makes it pretty SAD up front. You're letting a Fighter get almost everything it wants with WIS alone. Giving them Shillelagh by itself is good; being able to keep a competitive Spell Save and attack bonus while still buffing their main weapon attack and damage is already great. The other stuff on top keeps it well ahead of the curve for the Fighter's entire career, and gives them a guaranteed magic item. It's just too much. I'd give them prof in Nature or Herbalism kit and the Shillelagh cantrip for free, and they're already good to go.

Nature's Serenity and Undying Sentinel should be swapped; NS at 15 and US at 10. Giving Fighters Rogue's Slippery Mind and a lesser version of Diamond Soul 4/5 levels early doesn't feel right.

I think Nature's Armory is fine as is if you take all the other Shillelagh goodies away.



This is solid, I'd love to play this sometime. I like that you gave it that Pathfinder cantrip as a feature, its a pleasant ribbon that the class builds on. I'm confused about the spell save DC though. I understand that you'll have expertise in Performance, but how is 3 + performance skill good? At level 3, by RAW point buy, you'll have a +3 to charisma, so with Expertise in performance your DC will be 3+3(CHA)+4(double prof)=10. Why would you want that, what am I missing?

Otherwise, a solid College.

I will try to get more reviewed tomorrow, but alas it is bedtime now.

Crisis21
2019-05-10, 11:23 PM
Middle Finger of Vecna has a paladin oath (https://mfov.magehandpress.com/2017/11/oath-of-storms.html?m=1) based on Thor

Awesomesauce!

DracoDei
2019-05-11, 11:00 AM
I think I have the new name for the subclass: either Replicator Adept or Adept Replicator. I'll take votes/flat suggestions on which is better.

The second sounds better to me.

Might edit in response to critique MoleMage kindly provided here, and/or critique of other entries.

moonfly7
2019-05-11, 03:08 PM
I just edited the now renamed Adept replicator, here's what I added:

Added option to upgrade feature from Knowledge Gained to Masterful Replication


Added rules for spell casting using Temporary Replication


Polished explanation for the rules of Temporary Replication

Let me know if anyone thinks I should add a way to use features like divine strike without spell slots. And please give any constructive criticism and suggestions that come to mind!

thisdude9001
2019-05-11, 06:14 PM
MoleMage! Thanks. No but really this is a big help. Thoughts and responses below in spoilers.



Wizardlock! If you haven't been keeping up with the chat thread, this was one that I wanted to try but couldn't figure out, so I'm happy you did.
Neat! Yeah warlock is my favorite class so far In the 10 sessions I played. Wizard seemed like it was missing something like this. I only wish I could have figured Charisma into here somewhere but figured that would make it a bit MAD. EDIT: and here I was thinking I did something unique. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?585262-Forbidden-Pact-(PEACH!))


Boons of Knowledge: It's odd that you can get Pact of the Tome features one level before your lender class could. Other than that, it's a fine feature. Can you swap invocations out at any point (like when you gain a level or when you gain a new invocation?).
Think I'll keep them being able to get Pact of the Tome features before warlock. Gotta add that you can change it each time you get a new feature (or would level be better probably feature).

Knowledge from the Shadows: Are the additional spells restricted in any way (do they have to be for levels you can cast, IE first level, or only rituals, or anything like that?). I don't necessarily agree with the additional spells on top of the cantrips; that budges in on the Bard's Magical Secrets exclusivity.
Yeah, I was thinking of making it so they have to take it all from one spell list (ex. want goodberry? gotta take 2 other druid/ranger spells. Though the cantrips should probably still be any list.

Guardians of Knowledge: Do the tentacles have to appear in empty spaces? Can hostile creatures move through them? Since they don't deal damage, the only concern I have is that they might turn into a mini-wall too easily otherwise.
So the goal with this was being able to constrain targets so they can't keep moving towards/away from you. Yes empty space. No can't move through them. Would increasing the area you can summon them (ex. 30ft.) decrease the wall-ness of it? Also maybe change it so it resets every long rest or maybe half of your intelligence mod per short rest. I'm wanting to stick to short rest. Also forgot to say turn order for them.

Bringer of Madness: This should probably be a long rest recharge only. Frightened isn't the strongest condition (too much is immune to it), but that duration is really good. I might even restrict this to one use per long rest (and give it level scaling instead of a spell slot requirement). I'd just reduce how often you can do it per short rest. I'm trying to stay to short rest to represent Warlocks and to not make this a bad choice for wizards who got low rolls and a sucky intelligence.

Trip to the Far Realm: A weaker GOO themed version of Hurl Through Hell, so I guess it's fine for balance. I agree with the long rest recharge here.
Yeah, I figured that this was balanced but it's kind of boring right? Working to try and find something more existing for a capstone ability.



This is one of the few subclasses here that really took two distinct themes and turned them into a third, related but unique, theme, and I think that's excellent. Other than what I mentioned above I would give it a thorough proofreading, and I think you'll be in a pretty good place.

Yeah I am not expecting to get top anything but I'm really excited how this turned out and it's something I can actually be proud of.Whether I get to play it or not. I like how in this contest we are all helping each other. I make sure to edit my post for some of these changes. Not great with proofreading I'm sure you see some errors in this post.


Should I make new Invocations for the subclass?

sengmeng
2019-05-13, 05:39 PM
So I decided I had an idea at least as good as the Path of the Spirit Vessel, and with all this time, I thought I'd post it as well. So now my entry has the Spirit Vessel spoilered and the main portion of the Oath of Assassination (paladin plus rogue) is posted. I have the oath spells picked out, just not in the entry yet, and formatting is still left. Each pair of Oath spells is one the boosts stealth and one that enhances senses or divination.

Feedback is welcome, but moreso than specifics, which one should I go with is a more important question.

Man_Over_Game
2019-05-13, 06:18 PM
Thanks for your advice, KOLE!

I've implemented most of the changes you suggested, modified a few to make sure it's in line with the other barbarian subclasses, and made it so that Guardian of the Pack gives a pseudo-Rage effect.

It's still a little too strong, I think, but just enough that I think it'd still be acceptable.

I do agree that Beast Bond would have worked, and that's actually what my second ability was supposed to be based around. But I just *really* like the idea of a Companion having a semi-Rage.

[Edit] I had some insight and made some major changes.

Now you grant your Companion your Rage feature (and magical attacks), but doing so inflicts both of you with Exhaustion.

Additionally, the level 10 feature instead lets you Help your Companion at long ranges, as well as see one another at those distance. However, you can only use the Help on an attack if you're adjacent to one another.

sengmeng
2019-05-17, 06:27 AM
Polished the Oath of Assassination amd added oath spells. Don't need a full on PEACH, just a yes or no, since I'm waffling between two entries at this point.

MoleMage
2019-05-17, 11:33 AM
Personally I liked the Spirit Vessel better. I feel like tying the Rogue-y features so heavily to Channel Divinity limits the Oath of Assassination too much.

And one last feedback with two days to act on it:


Honestly, I like everything about this as a casting barbarian. I have some concerns balance wise(access to any sorcerer spell, when 1/3rd casters are usually limited, power level of Focus Strike/Bolt compared to other barbarian paths), but I like the way you handled casting in rage, the way you mimicked sorcery points and the sorts of things they can be used for, even the way you did arcane focuses.

Notes: I would make the Leyline points a static value like the source class. Charisma already figures into spell attacks and spell saving DCs and Focus Bolt, so it should still be plenty desirable without the restriction. Focus Bolt's efficiency compared to Focus Strike is much higher (4 point bolt does 8d8, compared to 5d8), though it does come at the cost of getting to use Extra Attack/Reckless Attack so that might be fine.

DracoDei
2019-05-18, 06:41 AM
Well, we are getting down to the wire, and the weekend seems like it would be prime discussion time, so I'm going to pull this out of the spoiler and post it. Still rough around the edges.

I hope I can keep my brain together enough to actually make the edits I mention.


You had previously said that you were fairly new to 5e homebrewing, so some of my notes will mention what typical expectations in 5e are. These are, of course, mostly guidelines (and unofficial ones at that), but it will hopefully be helpful to you in building a frame of reference. These expectations will be in dark green unless I forget to format them.

Thank you greatly for that distinction. I do, indeed, think that 5e could use use more options/complexity.


First, your specific questions:


1.<SNIP>
Okay.


2. Telepathic Bond, maybe? It isn't concentration, but neither is it self-only like Dispel Evil and Good or Antilife Shell. 5th level is pretty bare for buff spells.
Hardly ideal, but better than what I had, and avoids trying to create a third homebrew spell.

I have substituted Telepathic Bond for Greater Restoration as suggested.


3. Concentration is hotly contested in the 5e buffing game, so Readied Defense is fine just requiring the Concentration while withheld.
Good to know! Was worried it would be seen as too close to "At-Will Quicken".


4. 8th level Cleric domains should give Divine Strike or Potent Cantrip (all existing domains give one or the other). I think that overall, you should narrow down the number of options and special conditions on things; there are a lot of them and 5e tends to favor simpler character options. That said, the fact that the game is too unvaried is one of the primary complaints about it so some people will see the introduction of extra complexity as a bonus.

Yeah, variation is something I want to increase. Won't be removing anything, just putting it into spoilers.


Now, to the rest of the domain. Overall, I feel like you have tried to put a whole base class into a clerical domain (I realize that a lot didn't make the cut, but this is an incredibly bulky domain, feature wise). I recommend reducing the number of options and special clauses across the whole thing. Some specifics:


Many of your features have short rest refresh. Other than Channel Divinity, Clerics are typically long-rest refresh on features.[/LIST]

Well, nickl_2000 seemed to be saying that I should make/keep the capstone short-rest, and other than that... Grace-Gift is built around the idea that the OOs are fighter-esque and thus can be At-Will, and that the drawbacks of the abilities substitute in for limited uses. This helps with the 1 round durations and conceptually goes with the idea that self-sacrifice only ends when the character is physically incapable of continuing. I did a research thread here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?586606-Questions-before-I-make-a-Class) towards my eventual posting of my 5e Grace-Gift. In it I said "They aren't so much 'At-Will', as they are 'until using them causes you to get sufficiently wrekt that you need some time to Ritual away some debuffs, or a Short-Rest or two to roll hitdice'".

What do people think of that as an approach to limiting "staying power/endurance"?


Conditional armor proficiency. I saw above that you did it deliberately because thematically it is important that they not be hindering themselves in case they need to hurry for a life-saving emergency, but it would honestly be less strange to me if you gave them heavy armor proficiency and the ability to ignore move speed reduction from armor, rather than heavy armor proficiency as long as they don't suffer reduction. If it is that essential that they get heavy armor but not that heavy armor, borrow the wording from Druids' metal armor restriction: "[Clerics of this domain] will not wear armor [that would slow them down]."

That wouldn't make them OP compared to, say, Life or War clerics?

I was trying to save as much "power allowance" for other things as possible.


Likewise, giving a free skill proficiency or a free cantrip would be perfectly acceptable for a cleric domain at 1st level. As a player I would rather see "You know the spare the dying cantrip. It does not count against your cleric cantrips known." or free Medicine proficiency than the requirements in how I build. (5e expectation: Classes will only add to the player's choices, never subtract or restrict them).

See above about "Power allowance".

Still I think I will at least give the cantrip as a bonus. Not so sure what I will do with the armor proficiency. For now I will probably just re-phrase to be more like the druid wording as you suggested. Later I might change it to overcome the speed reduction.


The first level Concentration bonus is also very specific, but of the three it's the one I'm most okay with because it tells me what to expect mechanically from this class (I'm going to be casting concentration buffs that affect my allies but not me), unlike the other two which give me part of something or even take away one of my choices.




At 2nd level, I recommend limiting it to one Channel Divinity option (as other cleric domains get).

Eh... they are more niche than the Channel Divinity options of other Domains, so I figured putting them both in would help compensate for that. I suppose I could move "Selfless Sacrifice" into an "Advanced Options" spoiler, but it is so short that that seems a shame.

I also will note that for the most part, durations in 5e are static rather than level based (Wild Shape is the only exception that comes to mind off the top of my head).

Would people recommend a flat 1 minute? 5 minutes? 10 minutes?


Vicious Defense does too much all at once. Even with the drawback, clerics still have access to a lot of non-attack roll offensive options (including their iconic damage cantrip sacred flame), and the damage cap on their smite is higher than the paladin's.

Ah, I think I will go ahead and put back in the stricter restrictions that nickl_2000 advised me to remove then.

Would people recommend I double the damage they inflict on themselves instead of this? In addition?

I could bump some of the benefits up to 2nd level, but that would seem to violate some of the thinking of having anything other than strictly numerical scaling that 5e seems to avoid?

Capping the to-hit bonus at class level would technically fit the bill, but seems more complicated.


At 6th level, I feel like there are too many choices here. If you want to do the advanced options spoiler that would be okay too, Totem Barbarians have had extra options added by splat books and I would see an advanced options spoiler in a similar light.

Okay, but does anyone have suggestions for which options should be prominently presented, and which should go in the spoiler?


Carry the Burden: The clause about dividing the weight is a little hard to parse. A similar (though slightly more powerful) but easier to parse version: "For each potential target of fly which you did not use, divide the weight you gain by 2." If you like, you could add "to a minimum of 1/16th the original weight." to put a lower bound on this.

I could do that...


Gift of Time: This is okay, though I would limit it to Wisdom Mod for uses (no proficiency bonus). It is potentially exploitable, but frankly the situations where it would be exploited would probably be better served by the cleric getting a turn.

I can drop that I suppose. Maybe make it (Minimum 2), although that seems like it would rarely come up.

One topic I am interested in for my long-term development:
I draw a line between 'I read an optimization thread, so now I win easily' and 'I am an actually skilled tactical thinker, I might read and/or write optimization stuff, but, if I do, it is at a level that a mere "regurgitator of stuff they read in a thread" couldn't retain well enough to use in play since it requires a deep understanding tactics". In other words, something that parallels the difference between an hacker (hat color being irrelevant) and a script-kiddie.

Given this distinction, where on the spectrum between these two extremes would people say that the "exploitability" of this ability lies?


Take my Eyes: The sub-effects could probably be changed to level-scaling. For example, the eyes option: "For the duration, you become blind, and the target's vision is enhanced. They gain Darkvision to 60 feet,immunity to the blinded condition, and advantage on Wisdom(Perception) checks involving sight, even if they are not normally capable of sight. If you are at least 10th level, they also gain the benefits of the See Invisibility spell for the duration. If you are at least 15th level, they also gain the benefits of the True Seeing spell for the duration."
And that wouldn't overpower it? Interesting.

Should I make the duration 1 hour, or 8 hours in that case? If I make it reset on a long rest I should probably keep it at 8 hours for everything, and maybe even bump it up to 12 hours.

Or can I get away with: "When activating this ability you may shorten the duration to 1 hour in order to also provide the target with the benefits of a See Invisibility spell for its duration." and then make the 15th level thing: "Whenever this ability grants the effects of See Invisibility it also grants the effects of True Seeing."?

I will also note that in 5e, blindsense and blindsight are not differentiated, and low-light vision no longer exists (it's now part of Darkvision).

Oops! Will fix.


Mob-Halting Reflexes: Either too niche (if you are a backlines cleric) or too strong (getting 3-6 boosted accuracy opportunity attacks a turn with Divine Strike and the Vicious Defense super-Smite). The issue here isn't in breaking with 5e's speed of play, but with expectations about how much a given character can do in a given time frame.

Hmm... "expectations" I am not sure I care about in this case if that is all they are. If you mean "expectations as they support actual game balance", then I may have to reluctantly remove that.


Readied Defense I discussed above. Giving up concentration for it is sufficiently large a setback to justify its uses, especially considering it still consumes the spell slot. The wording could use a little clean up ("provides a beneficial effect to in an area" looks like an editing typo) and I do think that making an example is a good idea, but it's fine as-is. One note about reactions in 5e: They are just that, reactions. They almost always (possibly always in official materials but I'm going to hedge) require a stimulus (When X, you may Y as a reaction).

Well, the stimulus would be "when the buff you are about to pop out would be useful." which is kinda pointless as a restriction to specify from a strictly mechanical POV.

Would it make things clearer to readers?


At 8th level, every other existing Domain in 5e gives one of the following effects (no choice, it's domain-specific):

Divine Strike: Once on each of your turns, when you hit a creature with a weapon attack, you can cause the attack to deal an additional 1d8 [type] damage. When you reach 14th level, the extra damage increases to 2d8.

Potent Spellcasting: You add your Wisdom modifier to the damage you deal with any cleric cantrip.

That said, I actually like your variation of Divine Strike, and would recommend that instead of getting options at this level, you get just that.

I'll put the other options into an "Director's Cut" spoiler.


Protector's Reward turns Vicious Defense's smite effect into a crazy-efficient way to deal a lot of damage really quickly. Combined with Mob-Halting Reflexes, a whip (for finesse), and a high dexterity score, it just deals too much damage.

Well, if you aren't fighting ranged attackers*, and have the Sentinel feat... although without the Sentinel feat you are still costing the attackers their action for the round to use the "Withdraw" action.
*Or, more rarely, teleporters.


Band of Brothers is a good capstone. The Warding Bond restriction is probably unnecessary.




Stoic Casting is probably not necessary; from level 1 you had proficiency and advantage on the important spells.

Yeah, but damage has probably scaled up a lot faster than your proficiency+con. Mod., right?


Overall, this class has a lot (too much in my opinion) going on, and it has roughly three different identities which vary based on choices (A: I give something up, and you gain something, B: I use concentration buffs on other people, C: I make opportunity attacks to keep enemies from reaching my allies). I recommend picking one of those three to focus on and trimming features from the other two out.

That would go against my homebrewing philosophy.

Putting some of the options in spoilers is fine, but it would really help to have recommendations on WHICH stuff to spoiler.

MoleMage
2019-05-20, 11:57 AM
Well, we are getting down to the wire, and the weekend seems like it would be prime discussion time, so I'm going to pull this out of the spoiler and post it. Still rough around the edges.


Sorry I didn't respond to this yet. I actually had a lot of events this weekend, and only had time to see that a post had been made, not read or respond to it.

MoleMage
2019-05-20, 12:24 PM
Aaaand the voting thread is upon us! http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?588433-D-amp-D-Subclass-Contest-VIII-Voting-Thread&p=23921791#post23921791

One quick note: Due to the sheer number of entries, you can now pick up to five choices to vote for. See above the table of entries in the thread for more information.

nickl_2000
2019-05-20, 12:29 PM
Aaaand the voting thread is upon us! http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?588433-D-amp-D-Subclass-Contest-VIII-Voting-Thread&p=23921791#post23921791

One quick note: Due to the sheer number of entries, you can now pick up to five choices to vote for. See above the table of entries in the thread for more information.

Phew, this one is going to take a little bit to parse though and figure out the top 5!

Ivellius
2019-05-23, 11:52 PM
...Huh. I just realized that I nearly duplicated Kingsluger's Coffee Wizard with my own entry. I don't remember reading that one first...ah well. (Still wading through the list, though--this was a huge contest.)

nickl_2000
2019-05-26, 07:11 PM
Don't forget to vote folks. We had a lot of entries, so we should have plenty of votes too.

MoleMage
2019-05-26, 10:51 PM
Don't forget to vote folks. We had a lot of entries, so we should have plenty of votes too.

That's right! Remember, the first tiebreaker is whether you voted or not; you don't want to have a top slot and miss out on your bragging rights because you forgot to vote!

On a related note, Ninja_Prawn did a pretty cool thing (or at least I thought it was pretty cool) when they ran the Slapdash contest and made a little trophy graphic with the contest name and number on it. Would you guys be interested in that for this contest? If I did do it, I would of course issue them retroactively.

Crisis21
2019-05-27, 12:09 AM
On a related note, Ninja_Prawn did a pretty cool thing (or at least I thought it was pretty cool) when they ran the Slapdash contest and made a little trophy graphic with the contest name and number on it. Would you guys be interested in that for this contest? If I did do it, I would of course issue them retroactively.

Yes, please.

nickl_2000
2019-05-27, 06:20 AM
That's right! Remember, the first tiebreaker is whether you voted or not; you don't want to have a top slot and miss out on your bragging rights because you forgot to vote!

On a related note, Ninja_Prawn did a pretty cool thing (or at least I thought it was pretty cool) when they ran the Slapdash contest and made a little trophy graphic with the contest name and number on it. Would you guys be interested in that for this contest? If I did do it, I would of course issue them retroactively.

Yes, I would :)

moonfly7
2019-05-29, 10:29 AM
So I know the contest is about over, but I just wanted to say, it's been a real privilege to actually get to compete with you guys. Each and every subclass entered in this contest is amazingly balanced and obviously crafted by someone who knows this game better than I ever will. I feel like my home brew is better just because I got to look at how it should be done. I think just about every one of these is going to be allowed in my campaigns now, and I just want to say thank you for all the help you've given me in the creation and upgrading of the adept replicator, and for being just generally an awesome community to stumble into.

DracoDei
2019-05-29, 02:45 PM
<SNIP> Each and every subclass entered in this contest <SNIP> and obviously crafted by someone who knows this game better than I ever will.

I find it ironic you would feel that way considering this was my first public posting of actual homebrew for 5e... although my years of 3.x/Pathfinder homebrewing might make up for that?


I feel like my home brew is better just because I got to look at how it should be done.
I am going to be in the minority here, but one thing I would urge you to do is consider 5e's ultra-simple mechanical style to be a starting point suitable for people new to the games. Don't be afraid to keep making stuff that requires thought on the player's part.

This next part might or might not apply to your entry*, but it IS part of the philosophy I am touting:
Making a player think during character creation is acceptable.
Making them think during play is desirable.

*See prior point about lack of breadth of experience with this edition.

I think just about every one of these is going to be allowed in my campaigns now,
Does that include mine?

Does it depend on if I actually make the last round of edits I was going to before the start of the voting period got me?

and I just want to say thank you for all the help you've given me in the creation and upgrading of the adept replicator,
Actually, I am probably going to give my top vote to yours simply because it shows the sort of high-level thinking I like to see.

and for being just generally an awesome community to stumble into.
Giant in the Playground forums are pretty good, yes...

moonfly7
2019-05-30, 09:53 AM
I find it ironic you would feel that way considering this was my first public posting of actual homebrew for 5e... although my years of 3.x/Pathfinder homebrewing might make up for that?

I am going to be in the minority here, but one thing I would urge you to do is consider 5e's ultra-simple mechanical style to be a starting point suitable for people new to the games. Don't be afraid to keep making stuff that requires thought on the player's part.

This next part might or might not apply to your entry*, but it IS part of the philosophy I am touting:
Making a player think during character creation is acceptable.
Making them think during play is desirable.

*See prior point about lack of breadth of experience with this edition.

Does that include mine?

Does it depend on if I actually make the last round of edits I was going to before the start of the voting period got me?

Actually, I am probably going to give my top vote to yours simply because it shows the sort of high-level thinking I like to see.

Giant in the Playground forums are pretty good, yes...
So.....um, wow.
First of all, this means a lot to me, I felt like my entry to the contest wasn't really up to snuff, especially after voting started. And it made me question if I really used the theme or just did what I wanted and called it adherence. I was actually questioning my base class entry based on that thinking. I really needed to hear that.
Thanking aside, time to say some stuff. I totally agree with your philosophy, it's my own. I firmly believe that dnd 5e is simple for beginner players, and that's amazingly beautiful. Its my opinion that the complicated stuff should be the stuff we add in, and then a DM can pick and choose. Everything you said about my subclass is what I was shooting for, and I'm very happy that you believe I achieved it.
On too your subclass: any changes you make will probably improve it im sure, but I absolutely lo e it the way it is as well. My epic level follower of a god Just died and came back, and I was going to give him a new cleric subclass. This fits the bill to a T. I love it The way it is, and it's gonna surprise my players a good deal. Mostly because it's going to reveal a side of this character, whom each of them has personal reasons to hate, that isn't evil and bloodthirsty.
I would like to apologise for not giving your subclass a vote, I had so many choices, and every entry is just so awesome, that you could basically put any one in for any place after first. At least for me.

theVoidWatches
2019-06-01, 12:57 PM
Since the contest's closing, I've decided on a revision to my Skinwalker than, unfortunately, I can't put up yet. As many have mentioned, Animalistic Smite doesn't quite feel right (more Paladin than Ranger or Druid), while Thousand Forms feels somewhat lackluster for its level. When I post it after the contest is over, Animalistic Smite will have been replaced with Thousand Forms, and Thousand Forms will be replaced with Partial Transformation - you basically get to use whichever stat is better between your own form and the form you're changing into, with the exception of health - there, you get to choose between either your ranger level times two or the target form's health.

nickl_2000
2019-06-02, 12:18 PM
Enlightened Warrior: I like it (I think I might like all of them lol). Would allow in my campaign. Please check out and compare to my Samurai entry on the 5e Base Class Contest, as I think that they are both interesting ideas for a Fighter + Ki concept. I didn't like the Invisibility spell being part of it, as I get that it's a reference to ninjas, but it comes out of nowhere. At the very least, it should have had an option to take another spell instead if you don't feel like being a ninja. The final ability is awesome, and I wish I'd thought of it for my Samurai.


Putting this in here to keep the voting thread cleaner. First of all sengmeng, thank you for the kind words. I think we all really appreciate hearing that our work is appreciated. My mental canon here had nothing to do with a ninja oddly enough. The spells you can cast with your Ki are all about using you mental strength and prowess to be able to affect the minds of those around you. So, invisibility in this case is actually much more like Obi-Wan in the scene where Luke, Han, Chewie, and Obi Wan are rescuing Leia. He isn't truly invisible, but he is using his strength of mind to make others not notice his presence there.

As for borrowing my ability for a different class. By all means, go ahead and do it. I write these for my own fun and for others to use them. Feel free to steal, borrow, or modify my ideas into something that works well for your campaign. My one caveat on that is that you please not use my ideas in a book you are offering for sale (including pay what you want style).

Amnoriath
2019-06-02, 05:46 PM
Excuse me Sengmeng, while I don't expect you to change your vote but I am going to say that my subclass was entirely with in the theme of the contest. By effectively making a deal with undead forces you gain pact magic and invocations all of which merges Warlock into a Fighter.

sengmeng
2019-06-03, 05:51 AM
Excuse me Sengmeng, while I don't expect you to change your vote but I am going to say that my subclass was entirely with in the theme of the contest. By effectively making a deal with undead forces you gain pact magic and invocations all of which merges Warlock into a Fighter.

If you say so, I believe you. I didn't see it, is the issue. I'm sorry if my judgement seemed harsh, and I may be the only one that failed to make the connection, but as I was going through, every single other entry was more immediately clear as to what the borrowed class was. As a standalone piece of work, I thought it was much better than my assessment as an entry to the contest; my failing, I suppose, not yours, but here's the thing: I don't know you and I don't know your background with this sort of thing, but in literature, art, and contests like this, the critic is always right, because if they are honest, they aren't telling you what is, only what you made them feel. So even when they're wrong in interpretation, or didn't understand the work at all, their feedback is still valid: this work is open to being misunderstood, and at least one person missed the point. In most cases, a work must stand on its own; the author doesn't get to babysit it for all eternity. I hope this helps, and that while you should take all criticism with grace, you should also remember I'm just a guy you don't know who was drunk two days ago when he looked at your work. I should apologize for that because that's not part of being an honest critic, but your entry was more or less judged as fairly as the others.

Man_Over_Game
2019-06-03, 01:08 PM
Thought I'd have time to submit my vote over the weekend, but a lot of stuff came up. Really sorry for not voting, guys.

To be honest, though, even with 5 votes, it was still really hard to narrow it down with over 20 submissions.

Vogie
2019-06-03, 01:53 PM
Thought I'd have time to submit my vote over the weekend, but a lot of stuff came up. Really sorry for not voting, guys.

I'm in a similar boat - I had plans to do it Friday, and then boom goes the everything. I'm so backed up I haven't even started watching Good Omens and I've been anticipating that for months.

Man_Over_Game
2019-06-03, 02:49 PM
I'm in a similar boat - I had plans to do it Friday, and then boom goes the everything. I'm so backed up I haven't even started watching Good Omens and I've been anticipating that for months.

It's really darn good. Like a Hitchhiker's Guide, with angels and demons.

There's a particular moment when the naming of a dog has a lot of importance. So much drama led up to that point that I was so completely floored, while asking myself why I was surprised at all.

MoleMage
2019-06-03, 11:11 PM
Sorry to say that I'll have to get the results and new thread up tomorrow morning (it's evening for me presently). I was traveling today and thought I'd have my laptop up sooner than I actually did.

MoleMage
2019-06-04, 09:36 AM
The votes are tallied, and we had three clear breakaway classes once the votes were in. We had a tie for points between 2nd and 3rd, which resolved through the second tiebreaker (greatest number of 1st place votes).

In 3rd place, with 17 points, we have the Faustian College! Because sometimes an artist just needs an unholy bargain to get ahead.

In 2nd place, also with 17 points, we have the Skinwalker Ranger! Take the hides of your fallen prey to become a wolf (elf?) in sheep's clothing! Shapeshift into even horrifying forms. Creep out your friends!

And in 1st place, with 23 points, we have the Relic Grifter! Keep a keychain full of holy symbols! Trick the gods! Reference The Mummy!

In a shocking turn, we also for the first time have had a tie for theme. Calling Card and Follow Me each earned 12 points. Since Follow Me earned more 1st place votes, that will be our theme for contest IX. Calling Card will then be our theme for contest X, and during that contest's voting we will start over with a brand-new pool of random themes from the theme list. Look for Contest IX: Follow Me! in the next few minutes!

Alright everyone I've tallied the votes and declared our winners! The new contest should already be up here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?589501-D-amp-D-Subclass-Contest-IX-Follow-Me!&p=23952381#post23952381). I normally do these contests for four weeks, running from Monday to Sunday, but since I missed getting it up on Monday, I bumped this one up an extra Sunday. An extension is still available on request. Looking forward to all your leaders and commanders!

moonfly7
2019-06-04, 10:32 AM
So will we be keeping just the single chat thread for every contest then?

nickl_2000
2019-06-04, 11:08 AM
So will we be keeping just the single chat thread for every contest then?

We have in the past

SleeplessWriter
2019-06-04, 11:46 AM
Hm. I think I'll probably get a little inventive here and go for ranger. I'm thinking it'll probably be sort of a guide, maybe even helping its allies fight its favored enemy better, too. This'll be fun to try.

MoleMage
2019-06-04, 12:04 PM
So will we be keeping just the single chat thread for every contest then?

For the subclass contest, yes. Entries are small enough, and the contest length short enough, that containing them all in one thread seems to have worked thus far. The Base Class Contest will have new chats for each contest.

Man_Over_Game
2019-06-04, 02:28 PM
I'm torn between making a Ranger Marshal (teaches by example, can issue commands, and even cast his Self-cast spells on allies), or the Ardent Bard (is effectively a Super-Empath, feels the emotions of others, and others feel his emotions. He uses this to manipulate people into fighting better).

Which would you rather see?

sengmeng
2019-06-04, 02:31 PM
I'm torn between making a Ranger Marshal (teaches by example, can issue commands, and even cast his Self-cast spells on allies), or the Ardent Bard (is effectively a Super-Empath, feels the emotions of others, and others feel his emotions. He uses this to manipulate people into fighting better).

Which would you rather see?

Just personally, I feel the bard is already the most leaderlike class, and "bard but more bardier" isn't as interesting to me as tacking strong leadership qualities on any other class. I guess what I mean is that if you go bard, it has to be totally unique and nearly perfect.

nickl_2000
2019-06-04, 02:40 PM
I'm torn between making a Ranger Marshal (teaches by example, can issue commands, and even cast his Self-cast spells on allies), or the Ardent Bard (is effectively a Super-Empath, feels the emotions of others, and others feel his emotions. He uses this to manipulate people into fighting better).

Which would you rather see?

I would personally prefer to see a Ranger subclass, but I love a good Ranger subclass that makes the class itself more interested.

Man_Over_Game
2019-06-04, 03:04 PM
Just personally, I feel the bard is already the most leaderlike class, and "bard but more bardier" isn't as interesting to me as tacking strong leadership qualities on any other class. I guess what I mean is that if you go bard, it has to be totally unique and nearly perfect.

Those are some great points. The Ardent would focus on a sort of..."passive" style of leadership, where he kind of inspires a...cult, in a way?

Things like
"
Proficiency in medium armor and shields

Bardic Shock: When you are attacked by an enemy, you can spend your Reaction and use one of your Bardic Inspiration die to have an ally within 30 feet of you spend their reaction to attack the creature that attacked you. Your ally adds your Bardic Inspiration die to the damage of their attack.

Feedback Strike: When an ally within 30 feet is attacked by a creature that's adjacent to you, you can split the ally's pain between those nearby by spending your Reaction. Reduce the damage your ally takes by a value up to your Proficiency modifier, and deal that much damage as Psychic damage to both you and the triggering enemy.
"

The idea is directly stolen from the 4e's Ardent, which is a Charisma-based Psionic character that receives and emits emotional auras. The Ardent feels what you feel, but you also feel what the Ardent feels. You and the Ardent always feel the same thing, but it's not always obvious who's influencing who.


I would personally prefer to see a Ranger subclass, but I love a good Ranger subclass that makes the class itself more interested.

I'm not 100% sure how I'd implement it, but I'd probably do things like allowing allies to use an ally's values for checks while in favored terrain, and providing benefits for communicating over long distances. A Marshal would allow players to split up safely while still using everyone's stats for skills and such, as an in-game way of "preparing for the heist".

For example, a Fighter is split off in the party, but the Ranger is a Marshal. When the Fighter encounters an old temple, he uses the Druid's Religion check to determine the information, as a mechanical way of saying the Druid informed the party of what temples would be in the area, and what they'd look like. Or the Fighter uses the Ranger's stealth skill to Hide, because the Ranger informed the Fighter of the best ways of sneaking in the region without the bulky armor getting in the way. Things like that.

In combat, the Marshal would "Mark" an enemy that he missed (or he can choose to miss). The next attack by an ally against the Marked enemy is made with Advantage, and the enemy does not benefit from 1/2 or 3/4 cover while Marked.

moonfly7
2019-06-04, 03:08 PM
Those are some great points. The Ardent would focus on a sort of..."passive" style of leadership, where he kind of inspires a...cult, in a way?

Things like
"
Proficiency in medium armor and shields

Bardic Shock: When you are attacked by an enemy, you can spend your Reaction and use one of your Bardic Inspiration die to have an ally within 30 feet of you spend their reaction to attack the creature that attacked you. Your ally adds your Bardic Inspiration die to the damage of their attack.

Feedback Strike: When an ally within 30 feet is attacked by a creature that's adjacent to you, you can split the ally's pain between those nearby by spending your Reaction. Reduce the damage your ally takes by a value up to your Proficiency modifier, and deal that much damage as Psychic damage to both you and the triggering enemy.
"

The idea is directly stolen from the 4e's Ardent, which is a Charisma-based Psionic character that receives and emits emotional auras. The Ardent feels what you feel, but you also feel what the Ardent feels. A sort of medium for emotions, in a way.



I'm not 100% sure how I'd implement it, but I'd probably do things like allowing allies to use an ally's values for checks while in favored terrain, and providing benefits for communicating over long distances. A Marshal would allow players to split up safely while still using everyone's stats for skills and such, as an in-game way of "preparing for the heist".

For example, a Fighter is split off in the party, but the Ranger is a Marshal. When the Fighter encounters an old temple, he uses the Druid's Religion check to determine the information, as a mechanical way of saying the Druid informed the party of what temples would be in the area, and what they'd look like. Or the Fighter uses the Ranger's stealth skill to Hide, because the Ranger informed the Fighter of the best ways of sneaking in the region without the bulky armor getting in the way. Things like that.

In combat, the Marshal would "Mark" an enemy that he missed (or he can choose to miss). The next attack by an ally against the Marked enemy is made with Advantage, and the enemy does not benefit from 1/2 or 3/4 cover while Marked.
Love the Ranger Marshal subclass idea, but I do agree with the above statement about the bard, it feels like the obvious choice. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but if you want to take on a bigger challenge, and possibly gain more votes, I'd go with Ranger. Although your bard idea seems above the norm, so you never know.

As for my entry, I'd love feedback about the Vestige pact for the warlock when I get the actual features up.

sengmeng
2019-06-04, 06:48 PM
I thought I'd try to make a wizard into a leader, and I guess that led naturally to a certain monochromatic spellslinger coming to mind.

The School of Grey Tactics is up.

I'm open to more Battle Secret ideas, especially some that may have feats as prerequisites.

Crisis21
2019-06-04, 07:59 PM
A somewhat different interpretation of the theme, the College of the Pied Piper (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23952968&postcount=5) is up.

RickAsWritten
2019-06-05, 11:19 AM
I took the "Follow Me" name of the contest quite literally and created: Monk - The Way of the Swift End (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23954811&postcount=7). It is a monk that loves to go first and can inspire and assist its allies when it does. Great leaders don't have to lead from the front, but this one does.

Let me know what you think and if there are any rough spots that need ironed out.

Thanks,

RaW

nickl_2000
2019-06-05, 12:41 PM
I have the initial draft up and out for the Cleric Domain of Middle Management. I tried to find the balance of funny/fun and an actual playable subclass.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23952636&postcount=4

moonfly7
2019-06-05, 02:10 PM
I'm some with the first draft of the vestige warlock pact, please PEACH and give me better names for the last two features.

MoleMage
2019-06-05, 02:44 PM
Had a ruling request, sharing the answer with the general chat thread:



Are we allowed to talk about our subclass entries on other parts of the forum?

For example, if I create a subclass that didn't exist before the contest, can I ask for opinions outside of the contest chat?

Ruling: You can talk about parts of it outside the contest, but not share the subclass itself. For example, if you were trying to decide between two ways to model an ability, you could make a thread about that ability and discuss the pros and cons of the ability, but you couldn't share the subclass's other abilities.

EDIT: Addendum: Discussing potential concepts in general terms (should I make an Aura Bard or a Royal Sorcerer?) without specific information is also fine.

Man_Over_Game
2019-06-05, 02:59 PM
Love the Ranger Marshal subclass idea, but I do agree with the above statement about the bard, it feels like the obvious choice. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but if you want to take on a bigger challenge, and possibly gain more votes, I'd go with Ranger. Although your bard idea seems above the norm, so you never know.

As for my entry, I'd love feedback about the Vestige pact for the warlock when I get the actual features up.

I'm kinda upset at myself. I just realized that my Ardent Bard has almost identical concepts to the Redemption Paladin (if slightly different mechanics). That is, you could easily reflavor the Redemption Paladin to be an Ardent.

Guess I'm making the Marshal Ranger!

sengmeng
2019-06-05, 04:03 PM
Feedback

Vestige Patron
I like the concept; dead gods with a bit of influence left is a great warlock patron. The abilities are unique and powerful (maybe too powerful; I'm pretty bad with balance and they're putting out alarm bells). I don't think automatically that dead god = leader, but I guess they want to be worshipped and obeyed, so it fits well enough. Go over your verbiage though; some places a couple typos made it so I'm just guessing at the intended mechanics.

Middle Management Domain
Overall, it works on a humor, theme, and balance level, but I'd tighten up my wording and also specify a few places where rulings/exploits aren't quite clear, most notably, No You Can't Leave Work Early: does this still work if twice your cleric level is less than the damage received, and does it remove status effects that render someone unconscious? Does it stop death from damage? Unrelated: I'd rather the abilities be named with corporate buzzwords (Synergy! Networking! Solution oriented! Entrepreneurial spirit!) but that's a very minor thing to worry about.

College of the Pied Piper
I like that it does what it promises: Porting the legend of the Pied Piper into 5e D&D. Seems balanced, and useful, but I'm having trouble picturing the campaign where this is someone's character, except as a villain.

Way of the Swift End
There's a lot of wall of text here. I'd try to tighten the wording, maybe even change the mechanics to something simpler just to cut down on the words. An example: "Any ally that acts after you in initiative order and uses at least 5 feet of their walking speed gains a bonus to their speed equal to the bonus movement granted to you in the Unarmored Movement section of the Monk table divided by two (rounded up to the nearest multiple of 5) for the next minute."

Why not: "Any ally after you in initiative order gains half your unarmored speed bonus for the next minute."

I'm not sure if there's some reason that it's overpowered to gain a movement boost when you don't move, but that seems to be all that you're preventing with all those extra qualifiers.

I like the idea and it seems like I'd probably allow it in my game, but right now it's just not fun to read,

Man_Over_Game
2019-06-05, 05:22 PM
@Segev: It's probably best if you make any kind of communication that isn't an admission on this thread.

As to whether miniomancy is on the table, I'd certainly think so!

MoleMage
2019-06-05, 05:27 PM
@Segev: It's probably best if you make any kind of communication that isn't an admission on this thread.

As to whether miniomancy is on the table, I'd certainly think so!

The rule of thumb is that theme adherence is a soft rule. If you feel like it fits and could explain why, the entry won't be disqualified. That said, if reviewers start complaining about lack of theme adherence, you might want to listen, because they're going to be voters in a few weeks.

In this specific query about minionmancy, I think you're solidly within theme.

Crisis21
2019-06-05, 07:37 PM
Hey, if my Pied Piper is in-theme, I see no reason why minionmancy wouldn't be.



College of the Pied Piper
I like that it does what it promises: Porting the legend of the Pied Piper into 5e D&D. Seems balanced, and useful, but I'm having trouble picturing the campaign where this is someone's character, except as a villain.


All too often, the tools of the hero and the tools of the villain are interchangeable. It's all in how you use them.

theVoidWatches
2019-06-06, 12:56 AM
Put up my Oath of Royalty (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?589501-D-amp-D-Subclass-Contest-IX-Follow-Me!&p=23952529#post23952529) properly. The capstone may not be balanced, but it's a capstone. I feel pretty good about the rest right now - on the other hand, it's also 2am right now, so we'll see how I feel in the morning.

nickl_2000
2019-06-06, 06:52 AM
Middle Management Domain
Overall, it works on a humor, theme, and balance level, but I'd tighten up my wording and also specify a few places where rulings/exploits aren't quite clear, most notably, No You Can't Leave Work Early: does this still work if twice your cleric level is less than the damage received, and does it remove status effects that render someone unconscious? Does it stop death from damage? Unrelated: I'd rather the abilities be named with corporate buzzwords (Synergy! Networking! Solution oriented! Entrepreneurial spirit!) but that's a very minor thing to worry about.



Thanks for the comments. Since it's a first draft, I have lots of tightening to do on the wording. My working progress is usually to get my ideas down first, and then mess with the word repeatedly to clean it up for brevity and clarity. Also, the reaction is after someone is knocked unconscious, so whether it's from a sleep spell or dropping to 0 HP, or whatever other reason it happens after the damage has been applied.

I do like your idea of buzzwords, it adds to the feeling of the subclass.

RickAsWritten
2019-06-06, 07:10 AM
Way of the Swift End
There's a lot of wall of text here. I'd try to tighten the wording, maybe even change the mechanics to something simpler just to cut down on the words. An example: "Any ally that acts after you in initiative order and uses at least 5 feet of their walking speed gains a bonus to their speed equal to the bonus movement granted to you in the Unarmored Movement section of the Monk table divided by two (rounded up to the nearest multiple of 5) for the next minute."

Why not: "Any ally after you in initiative order gains half your unarmored speed bonus for the next minute."

I'm not sure if there's some reason that it's overpowered to gain a movement boost when you don't move, but that seems to be all that you're preventing with all those extra qualifiers.

I like the idea and it seems like I'd probably allow it in my game, but right now it's just not fun to read,

Its a first draft so there will be some revisions and I'll try to parse it down some. That specific clause is in their for a reason though. What I am preventing here is players spamming Held Actions to get the free movement bonus.

Scenario:
Initiative is rolled.
Swift Monk is 3rd in initiative order.
The two players that rolled higher in initiative state that they hold their attack until after the Swift Monk goes.
They now get the speed bonus.

Since you cannot use a Held Action to move, this extra bit of wording prevents abuse. Now is that an egregious abuse of rules? No...but this subclass is all about going first and rushing in to danger, so it helps it stay true to the theme.

sengmeng
2019-06-06, 08:27 AM
Its a first draft so there will be some revisions and I'll try to parse it down some. That specific clause is in their for a reason though. What I am preventing here is players spamming Held Actions to get the free movement bonus.

Scenario:
Initiative is rolled.
Swift Monk is 3rd in initiative order.
The two players that rolled higher in initiative state that they hold their attack until after the Swift Monk goes.
They now get the speed bonus.

Since you cannot use a Held Action to move, this extra bit of wording prevents abuse. Now is that an egregious abuse of rules? No...but this subclass is all about going first and rushing in to danger, so it helps it stay true to the theme.

I don't see anything that indicates you can't benefit by holding your action. If that's what you want to avoid, say they have to roll lower than the Swift Monk. Or just say, you cannot benefit from this if you use held action. And look for places where you can eliminate some words; "at least 5 feet of movement" is implied by "moves".

nickl_2000
2019-06-06, 09:09 AM
Oath Spells
I'm not sure about a Paladin getting Spirit Guardian, it seems pretty powerful for an already powerful class in my mind. Also, you have 3 spells at level 17.

Channel Divinity - I'm not sure about Inspiring Presence, it is just so close to the college of glamour ability. It does allow AoOs and happens less often, but should gives more temp HP so I think balance is fine. I personally wouldn't mind seeing something a little more differentiated from the bard ability here.
I really like Leader of Men though, this is a pretty powerful ability and could certainly be used all the time. Give that this channel divinity option is there, you could make the other one more of a niche ability if you wanted to.

Aura of Leadership - This is an interesting take on the aura since it isn't directly combat related like more. It seems incredibly powerful at first, but isn't as much as you think on it more. Considering that Paladin's only get 4 skill prof it isn't as overpowered as I initially though. Although, one thing to consider is how to treat skills that the Paladin has expertise in (multiclassing into bard/rogue or feats).

King's Touch - "next time they move out of your Aura of Grandeur" what is the aura of grandeur? I don't see that anywhere. This same reference is in your Divine Right ability.

Divine Right - Something feels off on this one. Maybe it's that nearly all other Paladin level 20 abilities are for X amount of time. I do also worry about breaking bounded accuracy with the +1s you can grant to other players, especially since you can grant temp HP extremely easily out of combat. On the other hand it's a 20th level ability. So god like powerful is almost expected.




I really like the concept of a lost dead god as a warlock patron in return for gaining more followers.
Spell List - Phew that's a powerful, powerful spell list for a Warlock. Between the aura's and Aid being able to be upcast it makes a heck of a support character. Also, I'm not really a fan of another class getting half caster spells before the half-casters do. That is a personal thing more than a balance thing though.

As I say -This one is pretty broken when it comes to bounded accuracy and multiclassing. Can you imagine a Paladin dipping into warlock to get an immediate +3 or +4 to all attack rolls and saving through? Or even crazier, a Level 6 Paladin/Level 1 Vestige Warlck getting 2x Charisma Mod to saving throws? You would rarely ever fail a saving throw. If you want this ability, it really needs to be a capstone and even then it may be to powerful. It certainly shouldn't be a level 1 ability.

As I Do - So do they gain this when if they rest within 30 feet and keep it, or when they are within 30 feet like an aura? Does this apply to you too?
Also, there are some pretty powerful options here. Giving Devil's sight to everyone is great. What about invocations that allow you to cast a spell, what's the casting stat for attack/DC? What about invocations that require a certain pact, can you use those (think improved pact weapon)? What happens with spell casting invocations that let you cast a spell once per long rest and you switch to a different invocation during a short rest?
Overall this is a pretty interesting ability, but it is rife with questions and clarifications that are needed.

Out Of One - 30 feet of casting or 30 feet of you? Also this could pretty dangerous in the amount of damage you are giving to others. We are level 11, at the end of a long rest I cast Hex. Now the PAM fighter who gets 4 attacks in a round is getting an extra 1d6 for each attack. This really, really adds up. Since hex affects one or more creatures it's a legit choice here.

Perfect Harmony - Holy cow, your melee friends are going to love this. Especially since you make an attack roll for each EB ray. This seems broken good, even for a capstone.





Bonus Proficiencies - I feel like one of these should be in a pipe based instrument. Panflute, flute, etc. You are a piper after all.

Charming Song - Do you select a creature on learning this ability or on using this ability? Also, this is pretty odd from a standards perspective. Most of the time at 3rd level you gain an additional use of your bardic inspiration.
How long can you play the song for?
Why not just make a creature who succeeds on the save immune to it until the finish a long rest? That is more standard.





Rallying Spell - Is there an end to how long the chance for advantage lasts? Do they choose when to use it or is it the next one? The wording needs to be tightened up as well here. The whole if this then this, blocks are confusing.

Inspiring Spell - So now you get advantage on a d20 roll, 1d6 added to it, and temp hp? Seems like a lot at level 6 to me, seems like it may also cause issues with bounded accuracy.

Greater Inspiration - Compounding more on bounded accuracy. Can they have this and bardic inspiration at the same time?

Chromatic Apotheosis - Are the abilities here only when you are knocked to 0 HP, or all the time?


Insightful Defense - You can get to 15 AC? That's mage armor +2 dex. Doesn't seem all that great to me
Martial Student - Wizard aren't proficient with all simple weapons. May want to make this both simple and martial.
Martial Focus - I don't see the need for damaging after rolling initiative. Just let the wizard make a weapon a focus. You aren't wearing shields anyways where isn't a big deal.
Arcane Strike - This eliminate the disadvantage on a ranged spell attack, is that a problem? Also, what happens with a magical weapon? Does it give a bonus to hit?
Ancient Tactics - Give expertise in history. It won't break anything, but makes it more flavorful
Overall, check your names in here. Spell Ambush, Spellsniper, and Arcane Archer are either exact or really close to other abilities in the books. This will lead to confusion.





Marked for a Swift End - Should say 1 Ki point instead of a ki point. How often does the free dodge trigger? When does this end if the creature doesn't die?

Follow, with Haste - How long does this last? It also may be simpler to just say how much of a speed bonus they get.

Danger at the Fore - Simplify this. "If you are included within the area of effect of a trap, you may use your reaction to ..." Don't worry about being the first or anything like that. It's an added complications.

The End Brought About - So, you could potentially heal 100 HPs for 3 Ki cost? That's pretty darn powerful, but at a large risk I suppose.


I will comment more as I see others added/finished.

RickAsWritten
2019-06-06, 09:09 AM
I don't see anything that indicates you can't benefit by holding your action. If that's what you want to avoid, say they have to roll lower than the Swift Monk. Or just say, you cannot benefit from this if you use held action. And look for places where you can eliminate some words; "at least 5 feet of movement" is implied by "moves".

The "uses at least 5 feet of movement" part explicitly limits it. If you hold your action, you cannot move (only attack or cast a spell), and thus won't have used 5 feet of movement.

Thanks for the input though. I'll give 'er another run through this afternoon and try to shorten it up.

sengmeng
2019-06-06, 09:15 AM
The "uses at least 5 feet of movement" part explicitly limits it. If you hold your action, you cannot move (only attack or cast a spell), and thus won't have used 5 feet of movement.

Thanks for the input though. I'll give 'er another run through this afternoon and try to shorten it up.

I may have to go over the held action rulea, but doesn't it change your initiative order, and isn't being after the monk the operative statement here? The point is, I was (and apparently am still) confused.

RickAsWritten
2019-06-06, 09:23 AM
I may have to go over the held action rulea, but doesn't it change your initiative order, and isn't being after the monk the operative statement here? The point is, I was (and apparently am still) confused.

Mmm, that's a good point. They may act after the monk but their turn is still technically before it because on the next round it reverts to the original initiative order. I'll play around with the wording. Maybe change "acts after" to "takes their turn after."

As for movement with held actions, as far as I know it's not allowed, but a lot of DM's will let it slide.

Crisis21
2019-06-06, 09:39 AM
Mmm, that's a good point. They may act after the monk but their turn is still technically before it because on the next round it reverts to the original initiative order. I'll play around with the wording. Maybe change "acts after" to "takes their turn after."

As for movement with held actions, as far as I know it's not allowed, but a lot of DM's will let it slide.

Personal opinion, but I'm not a fan of penalizing characters for 'daring' to roll higher on initiative. If there's a way for a character to hold their turn so the Monk goes first, then I honestly think you should allow them to gain the benefit of the feature by doing so.

RickAsWritten
2019-06-06, 09:46 AM
Personal opinion, but I'm not a fan of penalizing characters for 'daring' to roll higher on initiative. If there's a way for a character to hold their turn so the Monk goes first, then I honestly think you should allow them to gain the benefit of the feature by doing so.

I agree. I don't think I should be penalizing anyone at all. I'm gonna do an entire rewrite of that ability.

moonfly7
2019-06-06, 09:50 AM
I'm doing a complete overhaul of the Vestige's Hand, adding more flavor and making it its own thing, not just a semi-flavored contest monkey. Please tell me what you think of the changes I've made so far, and please leave suggestions as to any changes I need to make.
Also, just a note, I know that at least the second to last feature is overpowered as crap, I'm working on alternatives.

nickl_2000
2019-06-06, 10:27 AM
caught up in the last page with most comments on most of the subclasses so far.

theVoidWatches
2019-06-06, 11:44 AM
Oath Spells
I'm not sure about a Paladin getting Spirit Guardian, it seems pretty powerful for an already powerful class in my mind. Also, you have 3 spells at level 17.

Whoops! I had been picking out spells that I felt were thematically appropriate at each level, and then dropping down to two - apparently I forget to drop down to two for level 17. Fixed now, I removed Rary's Telepathic Bond. I also swapped out Spirit Guardian for Tiny Servant.


Channel Divinity - I'm not sure about Inspiring Presence, it is just so close to the college of glamour ability. It does allow AoOs and happens less often, but should gives more temp HP so I think balance is fine. I personally wouldn't mind seeing something a little more differentiated from the bard ability here.
I really like Leader of Men though, this is a pretty powerful ability and could certainly be used all the time. Give that this channel divinity option is there, you could make the other one more of a niche ability if you wanted to.

I'll be honest - I forgot about the College of Glamour entirely. Inspiring Presence is meant to be a kind of rallying cry - bring everyone together and bolster them - which I think is appropriate enough here that I don't want to change it.


Aura of Leadership - This is an interesting take on the aura since it isn't directly combat related like more. It seems incredibly powerful at first, but isn't as much as you think on it more. Considering that Paladin's only get 4 skill prof it isn't as overpowered as I initially though. Although, one thing to consider is how to treat skills that the Paladin has expertise in (multiclassing into bard/rogue or feats).




King's Touch - "next time they move out of your Aura of Grandeur" what is the aura of grandeur? I don't see that anywhere. This same reference is in your Divine Right ability.



I originally had the level 7 Aura called Aura of Grandeur, so this is a holdover from that. Fixed now.


Divine Right - Something feels off on this one. Maybe it's that nearly all other Paladin level 20 abilities are for X amount of time. I do also worry about breaking bounded accuracy with the +1s you can grant to other players, especially since you can grant temp HP extremely easily out of combat. On the other hand it's a 20th level ability. So god like powerful is almost expected.



It's based on the level 20 Redemption Paladin, as far as not being an activated ability goes. That said, it's not exactly an always-on thing since it's basically just a boost to all the things you do as a Royalty Paladin.
I think that the bounded accuracy should be fine - you're giving at best a +2 to someone's attack roll, if they have temp HP from you and you've used Leader of Men on them. And yeah, as a capstone it should​ be strong.
[/SPOILER]

RickAsWritten
2019-06-06, 11:58 AM
Marked for a Swift End - Should say 1 Ki point instead of a ki point. How often does the free dodge trigger? When does this end if the creature doesn't die?

Follow, with Haste - How long does this last? It also may be simpler to just say how much of a speed bonus they get.

Danger at the Fore - Simplify this. "If you are included within the area of effect of a trap, you may use your reaction to ..." Don't worry about being the first or anything like that. It's an added complications.

The End Brought About - So, you could potentially heal 100 HPs for 3 Ki cost? That's pretty darn powerful, but at a large risk I suppose.

MfaSE - Fixed and altered a bit. The Mark lasts for a minute now, and so does the Dodge. Also I changed the AC bonus to a to-hit bonus. It makes more sense with the theme. I brought the Ki numbers down though. A +5 to hit is a bit much even at level 17. How does that look?

F,wH - It lasts for a minute and I simplified it.

DatF - Simplified, but I'm worried it doesn't encourage the monk to be at the front of the marching order anymore. That's kinda what I was going for. Also, should I add a sentence about environmental effects? If a tunnel collapses, should DatF be able to hold the passage open?

TEBA - I went back and for on the numbers on that one a bit, but ended up going 1d10x10 because of simplicity and the fact that it has the same range as the damage on a success on Quivering Palm's save.


Personal opinion, but I'm not a fan of penalizing characters for 'daring' to roll higher on initiative. If there's a way for a character to hold their turn so the Monk goes first, then I honestly think you should allow them to gain the benefit of the feature by doing so.

After some thought, I agreed with you. If they are holding their actions to get the speed boost that also means that they aren't moving on the first round of combat, which is a significant enough sacrifice to begin with. Kind of like a reverse of the Tabaxi ability; don't move now but be faster later.

Vogie
2019-06-06, 12:58 PM
I feel dumb that the last 2 subclasses I posted here in the homebrew forum are both Leadership oriented, and now it's the theme and I have to think of another one.

I'm sure I'll be able to, but still.

nickl_2000
2019-06-06, 01:15 PM
MfaSE - Fixed and altered a bit. The Mark lasts for a minute now, and so does the Dodge. Also I changed the AC bonus to a to-hit bonus. It makes more sense with the theme. I brought the Ki numbers down though. A +5 to hit is a bit much even at level 17. How does that look?

F,wH - It lasts for a minute and I simplified it.

DatF - Simplified, but I'm worried it doesn't encourage the monk to be at the front of the marching order anymore. That's kinda what I was going for. Also, should I add a sentence about environmental effects? If a tunnel collapses, should DatF be able to hold the passage open?

TEBA - I went back and for on the numbers on that one a bit, but ended up going 1d10x10 because of simplicity and the fact that it has the same range as the damage on a success on Quivering Palm's save.


You could add environmental effects without it harming any balance things really. At a cost of 5 ki you are really paying for it, so if someone is willing to do that seems fine with me. If you really wanted to feel of the monk being out front you can say
"By 11th level, you always ensure that you are the first to put yourself in harmís way and your mystic training has prepared you for the risks. If you trigger a trap..." That way it's the the monk who is out front leading the way and it is still simpler language than before.

RickAsWritten
2019-06-06, 01:28 PM
You could add environmental effects without it harming any balance things really. At a cost of 5 ki you are really paying for it, so if someone is willing to do that seems fine with me. If you really wanted to feel of the monk being out front you can say
"By 11th level, you always ensure that you are the first to put yourself in harmís way and your mystic training has prepared you for the risks. If you trigger a trap..." That way it's the the monk who is out front leading the way and it is still simpler language than before.

Good stuff, thanks. Adjusted and updated.

SleeplessWriter
2019-06-06, 01:46 PM
I tried my hand at a ranger subclass first, but nothing was really jumping out at me about it, so I decided to try something else. I give you the Savage Leader, the barbarian in charge of his very own horde.

I like it so far, but there are a few rough spots that may need worked out. My biggest concern is that the third level ability is a bit too passive, or won't have enough impact on the battle because it won't always go off when it needs to. Any suggestions or alternatives? I could turn it into an activated ability, either with a certain number of uses or that requires an intimidation check, but I'm not entirely sure about that.

sengmeng
2019-06-06, 02:29 PM
Made a few changes. Still trying to rename the problematical ones, but I may just add a sentence that says that battle secrets that share a name with any other feature have nothing to do with that other feature lol. Chromatic Metamorphosis (was Chromoatic Apotheosis) is now, I hope, clearer: its supposed to be a one-time escape from death, and afterwards you get some light/radiance based abilities.

moonfly7
2019-06-06, 08:42 PM
I really like the concept of a lost dead god as a warlock patron in return for gaining more followers.

Thanks! I noticed this after I started revisions, but I totally agree with everything you said, what you saw was a VERY rough draft, but I'm glad you liked the concept, I've worked more with that concept in the revisions so far.



As I say -This one is pretty broken when it comes to bounded accuracy and multiclassing. Can you imagine a Paladin dipping into warlock to get an immediate +3 or +4 to all attack rolls and saving through? Or even crazier, a Level 6 Paladin/Level 1 Vestige Warlock getting 2x Charisma Mod to saving throws? You would rarely ever fail a saving throw. If you want this ability, it really needs to be a capstone and even then it may be to powerful. It certainly shouldn't be a level 1 ability.


Totally agree, I was on the fence about this, and decided to wait to see if anyone thought it should go. I'm replacing it with a bonus equal to half your Proficiency bonus, please tell me if that works or if I should scrap the entire feature.


As I Do - So do they gain this when if they rest within 30 feet and keep it, or when they are within 30 feet like an aura? Does this apply to you too?
Also, there are some pretty powerful options here. Giving Devil's sight to everyone is great. What about invocations that allow you to cast a spell, what's the casting stat for attack/DC? What about invocations that require a certain pact, can you use those (think improved pact weapon)? What happens with spell casting invocations that let you cast a spell once per long rest and you switch to a different invocation during a short rest?
Overall this is a pretty interesting ability, but it is rife with questions and clarifications that are needed.


So, I think I answered the prerequisite question in the feature itself, if not I'll fix that. as for the other questions, very valid ones and I'll answer them as I renovate the subclass. Thanks for asking or I probably wouldn't have noticed.


Out Of One - 30 feet of casting or 30 feet of you? Also this could pretty dangerous in the amount of damage you are giving to others. We are level 11, at the end of a long rest I cast Hex. Now the PAM fighter who gets 4 attacks in a round is getting an extra 1d6 for each attack. This really, really adds up. Since hex affects one or more creatures it's a legit choice here.


I'm not really sure about this feature, it feels like too much. The original idea was to make it be you were under affect of the spell as long as you were in 30 feet. I plan on decreasing the range to ten feet. Also, the spell only affects non hostile creatures in the field as if you had cast it on them, so if you cast hex with it, then the allies in the field would be under the affects of hex, letting you deal an extra 1d6 of damage to them, sorry if I wasn't clear about that. Anyways, being in a constant buff spell affect is crazy, so I'm kinda worried about that being really dangerous and OP, tell me if you think I shouldn't remove it.



Perfect Harmony - Holy cow, your melee friends are going to love this. Especially since you make an attack roll for each EB ray. This seems broken good, even for a capstone.


Your probably right, but would lowering the range to 10 feet negate that? My plan for lowering the range of everything is to make it so your fighters and anyone who wants your buffs has to form around you in a combat formation or just stick close, thus actively making the team more team-like, as they now have incentive to stick together.

I will begin reviews of everyone's subclasses when I get the chance, thanks for all reviews and suggestions so far!

moonfly7
2019-06-06, 09:30 PM
Ok, I know I just posted, but this desserves it's own post and I don't want to delete the last one. I'm completely changing the Vestige to be about raising followers of a religion, this involves changing everything. The new main feature, which I will build upon, is a feature that grants a number of loyal followers based on your charisma modifier, they're supposed to be weak unontelegent creatures at first that grow in strength and possibly number over time until they're not quite clerics and paladins, think goblins and kobolds in armor much to big for them trying to swing human sized axes and swords whilst chanting an off key tune to a dead god.

Kingsluger
2019-06-07, 08:33 AM
Well it looks like I'm in with a last minute entry of the Path of the War Chief. I personally love barbarians and love the potential of them being more than a beat stick. So, of course, I made them a helpful beat stick, encouraging the party and distracting the enemy with their roars of fury! I'm not entirely sure about the passive damage buff to the party while raging but I think its not an overly significant increase, even at later levels. This path also has a lot of emphasis on using reckless attack, allowing both for slight offensive and defensive buffs. Not going to lie, the 14th level feature is pretty much the mastermind rouge's 3rd level feature, just tied to rage instead of being a passive ability.

nickl_2000
2019-06-07, 08:56 AM
Well it looks like I'm in with a last minute entry of the Path of the War Chief. I personally love barbarians and love the potential of them being more than a beat stick. So, of course, I made them a helpful beat stick, encouraging the party and distracting the enemy with their roars of fury! I'm not entirely sure about the passive damage buff to the party while raging but I think its not an overly significant increase, even at later levels. This path also has a lot of emphasis on using reckless attack, allowing both for slight offensive and defensive buffs. Not going to lie, the 14th level feature is pretty much the mastermind rouge's 3rd level feature, just tied to rage instead of being a passive ability.

It needs to be in by July 7th, not June :) You have plenty of time to edit and work on it.

Kingsluger
2019-06-07, 09:00 AM
It needs to be in by July 7th, not June :) You have plenty of time to edit and work on it.

Oh, wow. Somehow got the month wrong and thought I had just sneaked in. My bad.

sigurdur130
2019-06-07, 09:40 AM
Kingsluger, I love your Barbarian leader concept. I have a soft spot for Barbarians as well and, like you, would love to see them as something more than just a beat stick. Not something OTHER than a beat stick, mind, I love me a good beat stick, but a beat stick AND something is nice! Quick change I'd implement is fixing the typo in the name of the class, cheif -> chief.



Barbarian Path of the War Cheif

The Lone Wolf Dies
Beginning when you choose this subclass at 3rd level, you are able to create openings for your allies to strike with your wild swings. Whenever you use your reckless attack feature and hit a creature with a melee attack using Strength, the next attack made against that creature by an ally other than you is made at advantage so long as the attack is made before the beginning of your next turn.

I love how this works off Reckless Attack and encourages you to use it, really working that high-risk, high-reward playstyle. When I read your subclass first you had this level deal with advantage against the frightened condition and some other circumstantial effects, if I remember correctly? I think you made the right choice in changing it to be more widely applicable. This way the War Chief Barbarian really FEELS like a War Chief every encounter, right from the gate.

In the PHB the phrasing under rage is 'melee weapon attack', I notice you use the term 'melee attack'. I'm not well-versed enough in the minutiae of the rules to see if that phrasing changes anything. Does it?


Mob Rule
Starting at 6th level, your allies are emboldened by your rage. Willing creatures you choose within 30 feet gain a bonus to their damage rolls equal to half of your rage bonus (rounding up) while you are raging. At 14th level, this feature grants an additional +1 bonus to your allies damage rolls while you are raging. You do not benefit from the bonuses applied by this feature.

A solid, if a bit dull, ability. A simple static +x that doesn't encourage any change in playstyle for your or your allies, or contribute to the feel of being a War Chief. That being said, I do like this ability, and it's very effective and doing what you want it to do. Just doesn't have the same OOMPH, YOU'RE A WAR CHIEF NOW, AND WAR CHIEFS PLAY LIKE THIS! that The Lone Wolf Dies feature has.


The Pack Survives
Starting at 10th level, you learn to sacrifice yourself for your allies, using your intimidating presence to force the enemy to focus their attention on you. Whenever a hostile creature within 5 feet of you would have advantage on an attack roll against you, it makes attack rolls against creatures other than you at disadvantage.

Would have advantage against you = when you use reckless attack. I gotta admit I'm loving how true to form this is with the level 3 ability. If a War Chief isn't taking risks for his buddies, he's not doing it right! Makes for some interesting, kind of humorous interplay with status conditions as it is currently phrased, though. If you're blinded, frightened, paralysed, petrified, prone, restrained, stunned, or even unconscious, you impose disadvantage by default. If the enemy is invisible, which grants them advantage on attack rolls, and therefore advantage on an attack roll against you, does that make the War Chief impose disadvantage on attack rolls against his allies, nullifying the advantage the enemy has from being invisible?

If these interactions are unintentional and you meant for this ability to only work with Reckless Attack, or at least not with status conditions, it needs to be rephrased. But again, by RAI as I interpret it, I really like this feature.


Scream and Shout
At 14th level, you are able to distract your foes with taunts and shouts, even in your enraged state. You can use the Help action as a bonus action while raging. Additionally, when you use the Help action to aid an ally in attacking a creature, the target of that attack can be within 30 feet of you, rather than 5 feet of you. The target must be able to either see or hear you.

This is just solid, in my view. Mechanically clean and simple and does what it's meant to do.

Overall, I'm really happy to see a good Barbarian Leader come out of this competition!

nickl_2000
2019-06-07, 10:11 AM
Oh, wow. Somehow got the month wrong and thought I had just sneaked in. My bad.

No worries, you made me question it for a second though, thinking I needed to finalize mine immediately :)



Undaunted Horde - I'm not sure about the others adding the rage bonus to damage on succeeding on a saving throw. It seems like it would almost be to common of a case. Especially since there are a lot of con saving throws that you will succeed on. I think this either needs to have a cost (bonus action/reaction) or be a tiny bit more limited in how often it procs.

Reckless Frenzy - "If they use their reaction, they have advantage on this attack....." As written currently even if they don't use their reaction all attacks against them have advantage.

Imposing Leader - I like it, thank you for putting non combat stuff in for a barbarian. I feel like they need more of this stuff.




Piddly complaint, but it's spelled Chief not Cheif.

The Lone Wolf Dies - I like the ability on this one. You may want to consider making it a the next melee attack instead of attack, but that it your judgement.

The Pack Survives - This is an interesting ability here. I'm not sure how often it would come up in play, but it certainly encourages the use of the reckless attack feature.

Scream and Shout - As you said, it's stealing from the mastermind. I might even consider giving this outside of raging to make it a more powerful capstone.

The one complaint I have here is that absolutely everything for the barbarian is combat related. There is nothing here that can be used for the social or exploration tiers of the game. Most other barbarian subclasses have at least one ability that is not a direct combat benefit.

MoleMage
2019-06-07, 10:16 AM
No worries, you made me question it for a second though, thinking I needed to finalize mine immediately :)



Undaunted Horde - I'm not sure about the others adding the rage bonus to damage on succeeding on a saving throw. It seems like it would almost be to common of a case. Especially since there are a lot of con saving throws that you will succeed on. I think this either needs to have a cost (bonus action/reaction) or be a tiny bit more limited in how often it procs.

Reckless Frenzy - "If they use their reaction, they have advantage on this attack....." As written currently even if they don't use their reaction all attacks against them have advantage.

Imposing Leader - I like it, thank you for putting non combat stuff in for a barbarian. I feel like they need more of this stuff.




Piddly complaint, but it's spelled Chief not Cheif.

The Lone Wolf Dies - I like the ability on this one. You may want to consider making it a the next melee attack instead of attack, but that it your judgement.

The Pack Survives - This is an interesting ability here. I'm not sure how often it would come up in play, but it certainly encourages the use of the reckless attack feature.

Scream and Shout - As you said, it's stealing from the mastermind. I might even consider giving this outside of raging to make it a more powerful capstone.

The one complaint I have here is that absolutely everything for the barbarian is combat related. There is nothing here that can be used for the social or exploration tiers of the game. Most other barbarian subclasses have at least one ability that is not a direct combat benefit.



I had to double check I hadn't put in the wrong month in the initial post!

Hawk7915
2019-06-07, 05:41 PM
Snuck in my first ever entry with "The Warlord" archetype for Fighters - curious to see what people think!

Kingsluger
2019-06-07, 09:54 PM
Piddly complaint, but it's spelled Chief not Cheif.
Fixed it, Cheif.


The one complaint I have here is that absolutely everything for the barbarian is combat related. There is nothing here that can be used for the social or exploration tiers of the game. Most other barbarian subclasses have at least one ability that is not a direct combat benefit.

I tried replacing the nice but somewhat boring ability which added half the rage damage bonus to allies with one which, while having shaky wording, should allow for some tense negotiations and avoiding combat. Thank you for the feedback.

Kingsluger
2019-06-07, 10:06 PM
Would have advantage against you = when you use reckless attack. I gotta admit I'm loving how true to form this is with the level 3 ability. If a War Chief isn't taking risks for his buddies, he's not doing it right! Makes for some interesting, kind of humorous interplay with status conditions as it is currently phrased, though. If you're blinded, frightened, paralysed, petrified, prone, restrained, stunned, or even unconscious, you impose disadvantage by default. If the enemy is invisible, which grants them advantage on attack rolls, and therefore advantage on an attack roll against you, does that make the War Chief impose disadvantage on attack rolls against his allies, nullifying the advantage the enemy has from being invisible?

If these interactions are unintentional and you meant for this ability to only work with Reckless Attack, or at least not with status conditions, it needs to be rephrased. But again, by RAI as I interpret it, I really like this feature.

It was definitely intended to work with reckless attack however, the other interactions with conditions were considered. The general feel I was going for was the War Chief having such a presence on the battlefield that it's hard not to focus on him. Kind of a "I could attack the rogue, yeah but the big guy is on his back" situation. It ultimately makes the enemies have to focus more on the War Chief and consider positioning, since to circumvent this disadvantage is as easy as leaving 5 foot range from the barbarian, though that will in most cases lead to an attack of opportunity as a trade-off.

SleeplessWriter
2019-06-09, 01:15 AM
Undaunted Horde - I'm not sure about the others adding the rage bonus to damage on succeeding on a saving throw. It seems like it would almost be to common of a case. Especially since there are a lot of con saving throws that you will succeed on. I think this either needs to have a cost (bonus action/reaction) or be a tiny bit more limited in how often it procs.

Reckless Frenzy - "If they use their reaction, they have advantage on this attack....." As written currently even if they don't use their reaction all attacks against them have advantage.

Imposing Leader - I like it, thank you for putting non combat stuff in for a barbarian. I feel like they need more of this stuff.





Nice catch on the advantage, I just fixed that, thanks. As for Undaunted Horde, I just changed that a bit. Dropped the triggering on saving throws, but added that it has to be a melee weapon attack and that allies that are close to you can also trigger it as well. I didn't want the first feature the class grants to be too unreliable, but I also fixed it so that it can't stack with itself if more than one trigger occurs before it wears off. Damage wise I don't think it'll get too out of hand.
if you have maybe three or four allies, unless you're travelling with a gaggle of monks, then it'll add maybe 12 to 16 damage in a round, assuming they all hit. Reckless Frenzy could add 6 to 8 more, for about 24 damage at most in normal scenarios. Probably not too incomparable to an Eldritch Knight dropping Hold Person at an inconvenient moment. I may just pull it back a little anyway by limiting it to only adding the rage bonus to the first melee weapon attack they make before your next turn.

I also added a little more to Imposing Leader, to open up a few more fun roleplay moments for the barbarian, like just walking into a tavern, yelling at everyone inside, and then walking out with an entourage of loyal followers both impressed by your strength, and thinking it may be best to be on your side instead of against you. Or maybe they just wanna see you beat people up. Lots of possibilities.

nickl_2000
2019-06-10, 07:26 AM
More reviews and comments

I believe the only things I need other than this are the re-vamped Vestige and MoG's Marshal, but I will wait on those until they are more complete.



Master Tactician - So, is there a cost to sharing your action surge/second wind? Or can you just do it? Do they have to spend a bonus action during their turn for second wind? This needs a little bit more clarification. Also, Proficiency/Expertise in three skills seems like a little much to me. I would give them Prof in initiative and a choice of one other skill. That feels more in line with the Arcane Archer, Samurai, and Chevalier.

Rally the Troops - This feel pretty powerful to me, plus I'm not a huge fan of giving a fighter subclass something that is defining to the rogue. I can see charisma bonus and bonus action help.

Never Give Up! Never Surrender! - Since you are sharing your indomitable will feature outside of your turn, it seems appropriate that it would cost the PCs reaction.

You are doing a really good job here of making a fighter subclass that spends a lot of it's time helping out other people and making them more effective. My only problem is that it doesn't feel like it is adding much new as much as getting more of your fighter core features and giving them to someone else instead.

Hawk7915
2019-06-10, 01:17 PM
More reviews and comments

I believe the only things I need other than this are the re-vamped Vestige and MoG's Marshal, but I will wait on those until they are more complete.



Master Tactician - So, is there a cost to sharing your action surge/second wind? Or can you just do it? Do they have to spend a bonus action during their turn for second wind? This needs a little bit more clarification. Also, Proficiency/Expertise in three skills seems like a little much to me. I would give them Prof in initiative and a choice of one other skill. That feels more in line with the Arcane Archer, Samurai, and Chevalier.

Rally the Troops - This feel pretty powerful to me, plus I'm not a huge fan of giving a fighter subclass something that is defining to the rogue. I can see charisma bonus and bonus action help.

Never Give Up! Never Surrender! - Since you are sharing your indomitable will feature outside of your turn, it seems appropriate that it would cost the PCs reaction.

You are doing a really good job here of making a fighter subclass that spends a lot of it's time helping out other people and making them more effective. My only problem is that it doesn't feel like it is adding much new as much as getting more of your fighter core features and giving them to someone else instead.



Thanks for the feedback!

Master Tactician: I agree, so I did spell it out. I also didn't love that this archetype spiked like crazy at level 18 after kind of being lame for the first 18 levels, so now it is A) More clear what "sharing" Second Wind means; B) Action Surge is now that someone else gets to use their reaction to make an attack when you use it, and C) less skill bonus to be more fair.

Rally the Troops: I made the CHA bonus to just damage to not mess with bounded accuracy, and lowered it to just Help as a bonus action.

Never Give Up! Never Surrender: Indomitable "just works" and I hate to make it take your reaction...is it unbalanced/too weird if it "just works"? I tried to clean up the wording at any rate.

Overall I tried to make it so that instead of letting someone be more awesome INSTEAD of the Fighter, you get to be awesome AND let your teammates be awesome too. That's more powerful, so a few things like Bonus Action Disengage and double proficiency to certain skills got dropped. How does it look now?

Segev
2019-06-10, 01:40 PM
I thought I'd give a shot at it. The Fair One Sorceress is meant to beguile and enthrall and cause her favored champions to serve as her agents, wittingly or not.

nickl_2000
2019-06-10, 01:45 PM
Thanks for the feedback!

Master Tactician: I agree, so I did spell it out. I also didn't love that this archetype spiked like crazy at level 18 after kind of being lame for the first 18 levels, so now it is A) More clear what "sharing" Second Wind means; B) Action Surge is now that someone else gets to use their reaction to make an attack when you use it, and C) less skill bonus to be more fair.

Rally the Troops: I made the CHA bonus to just damage to not mess with bounded accuracy, and lowered it to just Help as a bonus action.

Never Give Up! Never Surrender: Indomitable "just works" and I hate to make it take your reaction...is it unbalanced/too weird if it "just works"? I tried to clean up the wording at any rate.

Overall I tried to make it so that instead of letting someone be more awesome INSTEAD of the Fighter, you get to be awesome AND let your teammates be awesome too. That's more powerful, so a few things like Bonus Action Disengage and double proficiency to certain skills got dropped. How does it look now?

I'll check it out the changes tomorrow morning and let you know.

I don't think it is to unbalanced for indomitable to just work, but I'm just struggling with how it works in my mind. How do you give someone this ability without putting some effort into it. It just feels off to me not to require a reaction to intact with someone outside your turn.



I thought I'd give a shot at it. The Fair One Sorceress is meant to beguile and enthrall and cause her favored champions to serve as her agents, wittingly or not.

I will try and take a look and give comments tomorrow Segev. I looked at it earlier and all my mind saw was a wall of text instead of actual words (which tells me that I'm to tired to effectively comment at the moment)

Segev
2019-06-10, 02:12 PM
I will try and take a look and give comments tomorrow Segev. I looked at it earlier and all my mind saw was a wall of text instead of actual words (which tells me that I'm to tired to effectively comment at the moment)

Appreciated; it isn't my best work in terms of concise pith. ^^; I do hope the mechanics, at least, are legible when you're not too tired.

Bloodcloud
2019-06-10, 02:52 PM
I'm thinking of entering with a sorcerer bloodline. Something about a long lineage of magical rulers, like emprerors or... kings.

Something like a sorcerer king....

THE SORCERER KING, UNDEFEATABLE!!!11!1 tHE sTONGEST!11!

Sorry. Probably gonna call it Imperial soul.

Segev
2019-06-10, 02:54 PM
I'm thinking of entering with a sorcerer bloodline. Something about a long lineage of magical rulers, like emprerors or... kings.

Something like a sorcerer king....

THE SORCERER KING, UNDEFEATABLE!!!11!1 tHE sTONGEST!11!

Sorry. Probably gonna call it Imperial soul.

Gah, I had a knee-jerk "What made him decide to come to this subforum!?" reaction to just the font-size and opening words. Took reading the poster name and realizing the rest put it in context as a joke to keep me from going for that little triangle in the bottom of the post. Well played, sir. Well played.

Nicrosil
2019-06-10, 03:14 PM
Hey all! Just posted the first draft of my College of Professors. It's really rough right now, and is honestly my first time homebrewing a subclass, so let me know what you think and how I can improve! I'll add the fluff soon that should hopefully tie it to the theme better. I'm most worried about Arcane Instruction being over powered, or weirdly worded.

Vogie
2019-06-10, 03:21 PM
The Arrogate is up.

It was a little difficult to make something that stands out (all classes were used, save Druid, Rogue, and artificer), but I think this works.

The Arrogate is a Roguish Archetype that empowers their allies while fighting. They can sacrifice sneak attack damage to inspire a teammate to attack, adding the sacrificed damage to their attack.

The original conceit was a privateer, but I grabbed the title of the character Heden from Matt Colville's Priest, who also acts as a character who is allowed to do illegal things for the greater good.

Hawk7915
2019-06-10, 05:25 PM
I'm also new, so grain of salt on any of my feedback, but...


Coordinated Attack: Seems fine, but it is a bit of a shame that it won't work if you are in an all-caster party. A lot of us have done "may make an attack or use a cantrip"; that may be what you want to do as well. This is the star of the show, however, and it's super cool.

Distracting Presence: Seems really good, but the wording needs to be cleaned up - I think something is missing just at the start.

Get the Drop: An effective +5 Initiative to the whole party feels pretty strong...so strong that I'm not sure the rest is necessary. I'm also not sure gaining a Swim and Climb speed fits the class fantasy. Allowing the Arrogate to do a sort of "Pass without Trace"-lite effect instead would tamp down on the power, add a nice out-of-combat bonus, and better fit the class fantasy of someone leading a band of raiders or partisans to cause some mayhem.

Focus Fire: I think some wording needs to be cleaned up, since I'm a bit confused - as worded is this that you get -1d6 SA damage, then +3d6, and your ally gets +2d6 instead of the usual 1d6? I think it'd be cleaner to say "You gain +2d6 sneak attack damage, and when you utilize coordinated strike the target now gains +2d6 damage instead".

Overall: The name is neat, but a little hard to grok. I agree Privateer doesn't feel right since it will read as too nautical for the average person. I read this and thought of a Partisan or a Guerilla leader or a Rebel - and any of those might be a little more stand-out. Different strokes for different folks though. In general this is a strong chassis, but a bit simple. It also has a heavy emphasis on combat and less of an emphasis out-of-combat, and a few features that don't scream "leader" to me.


Inspiring Education: This currently seems strictly better than Crash Course; both use a Bardic Inspiration but this gives them the 1d6 as well. True, Crash Course lasts longer and can cover Languages and Tools, but I'd consider moving this down to level 3 and maybe expanding it somehow to combat? Or, you could leave it at 6 and move...

Arcane Instruction: This seems fair actually, since it is limited to 1st-level spells. Basically you are turning each Inspiration into three Spell Slots, but only for 1st level spells and only if an ally spends actions on them. Honestly one idea is to maybe have this at level 3, starting with just two uses, and then pump up the levels of spells allowed as well as the number of uses allies get as you gain levels.

Overall: Fun flavor! I like the style here - there isn't really a good way to play a professor or Maester or academic and this hits that note. A problem, however, is that until level 14 almost everything is out-of-combat bonuses. I'm not really sure how to fix this...but definitely I think this class needs a little more combat oomph.

Man_Over_Game
2019-06-10, 06:35 PM
Finally done with the Marshal Ranger (it's about 3rd on the list). It's a bit weird, focusing heavily on using Ranger features and providing them for allies. It's basically designed around being able to do some weird tactical decisions (like setting up an ambush or splitting the party).

Let me know what you guys think!

DracoDei
2019-06-10, 09:28 PM
Late reply to some critique from the "VII:Something Borrowed" voting thread:


Self-Sacrifice Domain: Okay, this is the domain that should replace "Life" as the standard,
High praise!

but also I'm drunk and I'm not going to read your whole entire other class to make sense of this entry.
Quite reasonable, even if you had not been intoxicated.

On the other hand, polearm users don't get enough love, so kudos for that.
Hey, if you are going to be good at Opportunity Attacks, being able to block a wider area really helps!

I like how strong this is as a bodyguard, but holy crap, if you're expending spell slots, you don't also need to take damage, not for a mere 2-to-10 d8 radiant damage.
I read a thread on Sorcadin's in 5e that implied that channeling spell full-caster slots into Smite was a very nice thing, and since they got that PLUS other benefits to opportunity attacks, I though it would be best to put something in there that made it more of a sacrifice than merely not getting any glory by using the attack action (and I'm planning on re-nerfing it to disallow damaging spells as well).

It is actually a lot better of a trade off than a weapon enchantment in 3.x/PF. That one dealt you 1d6 damage in exchange for 2d6 extra damage. It wasn't limited to Attacks of Opportunity* but was much worse of a trade-off than 1 per 1d8.
*The 3.x/PF term.

That said, you are using a Channel Divinity and losing the ability to use the attack action.

Nit-pick: Also, it goes up to either +9d8 or +11d8 depending on how you look at it (and/or if you uses one of the "Director's Cut" options at 8th level). 9th level slot -> +9d8. +2d8 from the default 8th level feature, which in this case ONLY applies to OOs.

I'd reluctantly allow this in my campaign,
Would you just drop the sacrifice damage and call the other drawbacks sufficient?

That seemed like your only objection.

but I haven't yet met a player who's likely to take this option. Their failing, not yours.

Indeed, I was aware that it requires a very special sort of player to want to do this, and I agree on that not being a failing of mine.


Your custom spells are very good, too.
Very good to know.

I came in late and I think that cost me some feedback, but those spells were especially were rarely mentioned in other people's critiques.


Finally:


Path of the Spirit Vessel: Oh my God, what kind of trash is this? You think you're cute, combining pact magic with a barbarian? The fluff is just drivel; did you even spell-check this crap? Who made this?

...

Oh.

As I have heard it put in a way that stylistically references The Sermon on the Mount:
"Blessed are those who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never lack for entertainment."

nickl_2000
2019-06-11, 07:30 AM
Next set, with fresh eyes that are hopefully not to tired



Tactical Awareness - I was completely on board with this until you are allowed to use each others proficiency for ability checks. At an hour per level, that turns a whole party proficient in nearly all the skills (for both combat and non-combat), and since this ability doesn't require concentration its even better.

Flanking Tactics - My gut said this was to much.... then I saw that it ended the first time that the creature was hit. So, it seems perfectly fine to me. Although, does it need to be limited to a certain amount of times per rest? It should probably be re-phrased so that if the ranger misses, they can choose to mark a creature as Targeted. That way, the Ranger can target the BBEG and attack minions if they want to. This makes it more of a tactical choice instead of passive.

Strategic Regrouping - I think 10 minutes is to long here. Maybe 1 minute?

Stalker Veteran - I like this a lot. It adds significantly to a Ranger core feature.





Overall comment. Make sure you put the levels that you get things in the abilities. It is a pretty standard design pattern that WotC uses in their subclasses. Also, it avoid confusion since I am not sure it token of favor is a level 1 or 6 ability.

Beguiling Influence - There needs to be a limiting factor here. As it is right now, you could literally charm an entire city given enough time. It needs to be either 1 person at a time, the person gets a save every round, or limited to X times per day to keep it a little bit more sane.

Token of Favor - Sickened isn't a condition in 5e. So, if you want a particular effect other than the person feeling blue, you will need to spell it out more effectively.

I really like the take here, it's an interesting feature on a character since there are no clear combat bonuses in the subclass features. I think the wording needs to be tightened up a little bit and toned down a little, but overall it's a good subclass.





Coordinated Attack - Given that anyone attacking is going to do more damage than the 1d6 in sneak attack, I don't think you need to boost their damage. Sure, they could miss, but adding in Dex/Str/Cha/Int is still going to be better than the 1d6 sneak attack alone. I also might consider boosting the amount of sneak attack dice you have to spent to do this, since this is a consistent reaction that you are providing to another class (especially a Rogue).

Distracting Presence - Tighten up the wording here please. As it is right now, I disengage, attack anyone successfully, anyone withing 5 ft of the disengage must make a save. That seems kind of odd to trigger it on multiple people at once. It probably should trigger on a single creature, instead of everyone to tame it down a little bit.

Get the Drop - I'm just trying to get my head canon around why you would suddenly be able to swim and climb for 1 round, and I just can't do it.

Focus Fire - A powerful, powerful capstone. Given this, I don't see why anyone wouldn't ever do this. I don't think it is overpowered though.





Make sure that you say is't the Bard: College of Professors. I'm pretty sure most would be able to figure it out, but including that doesn't hurt.

Bonus Proficiencies - Gut said that 3 artisan tools and 3 languages was to much. However, as I thought about it these are much more fluffy than the Lore Bard 3 skills. So, it should be perfectly fine and not overpowered.

Crash Course - I like it, support for someone outside of combat. Does it need to be limited to one use of this at a time, do you think? Or since it takes a minutes to do it is that good enough?

Inspiring Education - Seems perfectly fine to me.

Arcane Instruction - Thank you for including the once per long rest. That goes a long, long ways towards making this a sane ability. I would make it a "bard" spell that you know. That way you can prevent someone from dipping sorcerer and teaching an ally 3 shields a day, or taking MI: Wizard and getting everyone a familiar friend. However, it still gives some flexibility due to magic secrets since they are considered bard spells.





Phew, caught up again. I love the increased interest in these contents, but it sure makes it harder to keep up with comments.

Vogie
2019-06-11, 08:48 AM
Responding to feedback

Adding cantrip option to Coordinated attack - used War Caster verbiage.
Removed bonus damage from Coordinated attack.
Reduced capstone bonus damage from Coordinated attack.
Removed Distracting Presence feature.
Revamped Get the Drop to follow feedback.
Added a utility feature.

Distracting presence is replaced by Pre-Mortem, which gives effectively a non-spiritual Augury spell ritual.
Get the Drop is replaced by Conspire, that combines the Inspiring Leader mechanic and the Armor of Agathys to give creatures an edge, providing THP equal to 1/3rd level + INT, and those effected have +2 Initiative and stealth checks, after each rest.

Segev
2019-06-11, 09:26 AM
Overall comment. Make sure you put the levels that you get things in the abilities. It is a pretty standard design pattern that WotC uses in their subclasses. Also, it avoid confusion since I am not sure it token of favor is a level 1 or 6 ability.I only left it off of level 1 abilities, since I think WotC does the same, but I'll add them. Token of Favor is level 1. (Sorcerers get 2 level 1 powers from their subclass, and then one at 6, 14, and 18.)


Beguiling Influence - There needs to be a limiting factor here. As it is right now, you could literally charm an entire city given enough time. It needs to be either 1 person at a time, the person gets a save every round, or limited to X times per day to keep it a little bit more sane.You can't maintain Concentration through a Long Rest, and while Charm will keep them from harming you, it otherwise only gives you Advantage on Charisma checks. It also breaks if you cause damage or do something that makes them save (and they succeed).

The design goal here is that the sorceress can waltz into a situation and potentially make the entire bandit camp besotted with her or terrified of her, as well as that she could, for example, use friends to influence somebody, then, when it wears off, make them either too scared of her mind-controlling ways to do anything about it, or make them forget she did it and gain increased benefits from them finding her just that persuasive (by spending an SP).

That said, what if I gave everybody who she was currently Charming with that ability another save each time she uses it on a new target?


Token of Favor - Sickened isn't a condition in 5e. So, if you want a particular effect other than the person feeling blue, you will need to spell it out more effectively....gah, you're right. Poisoned would do, but I don't want to make immunity to that condition a valid avoidance. I'll have to write something explicit out.


I really like the take here, it's an interesting feature on a character since there are no clear combat bonuses in the subclass features. I think the wording needs to be tightened up a little bit and toned down a little, but overall it's a good subclass.Thanks!

It's definitely not a combat-focused subclass, though I will point out that Throngs of the Beholden and Idolized can let her participate in combats remotely. Idolized, in particular.

Also, because it can be used as a reaction, Beguiling Influence can force anybody attacking her to save or be Charmed and thus...not attack. That's probably too strong, though, so I need to nerf it a bit. It doesn't work if she's facing more than one attacker in a given round, but I don't think that's mitigation enough.

Edit: On second thought, because it basically ends if the sorceress is a participant on the other side of a fight, she can't maintain it on more than one creature per round in a fight. And they do get a new save each time. I'll amend it to ending if creatures the targets believe to be its allies are harmed, too, though.

Post-modifiction edit: Added a new saving throw if non-psychic damage is inflicted by the sorceress or her apparent allies on any creature the subject considers an ally. Redefined the effect of discarding a token of favor to being "heartsick," a condition which makes the victim Poisoned and Frightened of anything that reminds him of the sorceress while it lasts. (Remains something he can end with a Long Rest or by spending Inspiration.) This does mean anybody immune to both conditions and to psychic damage has little reason to not discard it if they don't like the Bond she's given them, but I think that's the best I can do. If they're that specifically immune to her powers, she just can't influence them very well.

She remains able to Charm entire groups one Reaction at a time, but it's a lot harder to maintain during a fight wherein she has any allies trying to defend themselves, and Charmed, by itself, is not super powerful outside of its "can't attack me!" clause. Useful, but not ridiculously so.

Also expaned Token to be subtly more powerful in a potentially strong way: it can be used on anybody Charmed by her, not just on anybody "beguiled." Since it extends the duration of the Charm, it would also extend rider effects. This is particularly powerful with the Dominate line of spells, so I added a note that he is prevented from voluntarily discarding it when denied ability to make voluntary actions, but added that the Charm is suppressed until the end of his next turn if he makes any saves granted by the Charm-inducing effect (allowing him to discard the token if he chooses during his next turn).

Nicrosil
2019-06-11, 02:58 PM
I'm also new, so grain of salt on any of my feedback, but...

(snip)



Thanks! I agree that Crash Course and Inspiring Education are a bit redundant, but to be honest I didn't have any other ideas for a 6th level feature. :smalltongue:

As for giving the class more combat oomph... I have no ideas. Maybe something like pointing out an enemy's weakness? I'm not sure how to implement that beyond what Bardic Inspiration can already do...


Next set, with fresh eyes that are hopefully not to tired

(snip)



Thanks! I'll make sure to update the post to make it clear it's for Bards. The intent was for the minute conversation with Crash Course to only be for one target at a time; how should I word it to make it clearer? Or should I make it work on crowds? If so, how should I word it?

As for Arcane Instruction, changing the wording to "a bard spell with a casting time of one action" should prevent most craziness. Hypothetically, by spending your entire Bardic Inspiration pool, you give your party the ability to cast any 1st level spell with the casting time of 1 action three times each. What's the worst case scenario? A ton of Cure Wounds? We live in a post Healing Spirit world. Guiding Bolt spam?

Edit: Wait I'm dumb I forgot I made it once per long rest. Yeah spending 1 Bardic Inspiration dice to give 3 Cure Wounds or Guiding Bolt isn't that bad.

Hawk7915
2019-06-11, 04:47 PM
Thanks! I agree that Crash Course and Inspiring Education are a bit redundant, but to be honest I didn't have any other ideas for a 6th level feature. :smalltongue:

As for giving the class more combat oomph... I have no ideas. Maybe something like pointing out an enemy's weakness? I'm not sure how to implement that beyond what Bardic Inspiration can already do...



Thanks! I'll make sure to update the post to make it clear it's for Bards. The intent was for the minute conversation with Crash Course to only be for one target at a time; how should I word it to make it clearer? Or should I make it work on crowds? If so, how should I word it?

As for Arcane Instruction, changing the wording to "a bard spell with a casting time of one action" should prevent most craziness. Hypothetically, by spending your entire Bardic Inspiration pool, you give your party the ability to cast any 1st level spell with the casting time of 1 action three times each. What's the worst case scenario? A ton of Cure Wounds? We live in a post Healing Spirit world. Guiding Bolt spam?

Most Colleges give a way to do extra stuff with Inspiration. What if a College of Professors bard allowed their Inspiration targets to expend their inspiration to take some action (Dash, Help, Use Object, Hide?) as a Bonus Action? Maybe too crazy.

Or maybe folks can spend Inspiration to reroll, instead of adding +1d6?

Or maybe folks no longer roll and instead get a flat +3/+4/+5/+6, reflecting that you make them consistent?

Or maybe folks you Inspire also gain their proficiency to ANYTHING - not just skill and ability checks but attacks and saves too. You make them as much of Expert as you are!

Man_Over_Game
2019-06-11, 06:21 PM
Ranger subclass: The Marshal

Tactical Awareness - I was completely on board with this until you are allowed to use each others proficiency for ability checks. At an hour per level, that turns a whole party proficient in nearly all the skills (for both combat and non-combat), and since this ability doesn't require concentration its even better.

Flanking Tactics - My gut said this was to much.... then I saw that it ended the first time that the creature was hit. So, it seems perfectly fine to me. Although, does it need to be limited to a certain amount of times per rest? It should probably be re-phrased so that if the ranger misses, they can choose to mark a creature as Targeted. That way, the Ranger can target the BBEG and attack minions if they want to. This makes it more of a tactical choice instead of passive.

Strategic Regrouping - I think 10 minutes is to long here. Maybe 1 minute?

Stalker Veteran - I like this a lot. It adds significantly to a Ranger core feature.



Thanks for the insight!

I suppose I could remove that portion of Tactical Awareness. My goal is to allow players to feel comfortable splitting up, and ability checks are a really big reason for the party to stick together. I could make it so that when one ally makes an Ability Check with their Action, another ally can spend their Reaction to apply their proficiency to that Ability Check if it's applicable. I mean, they already have telepathy, so it's not that weird to use a Reaction to help a friend who's a mile away.

On Flanking Tactics, I intentionally want it to be on the creature you missed. It lowers the overall power, and makes it so I can afford to not have it tie into a resource. Do you attack the target you WANT to hit, or the one you want to grant Advantage against? Without that, it'd be more passive and lazy leadership of "I attack, and target the most obvious creature to target". When most of the subclass is built around passive abilities, I wanted something that required your constant thought and attention each round. Decisions, decisions.

Strategic Regrouping is a Long Rest feature that mostly grants allies Proficiency on every Save for 10 minutes. That seems like a lot, but even Paladins grant more with their permanent aura. The 10 Minutes clause is to allow players time to move towards the ally, and the Saving Throws are to allow the allies to either survive long enough to get assistance, or to ignore obstacles that are preventing them from regrouping with their allies. Best case scenario, it's +2-+6 on Saving Throws that you didn't have Proficiency in for one fight. I might tone it down, but I'm worried that 1 minute is too short if the party is split up.

I'm glad you like Stalker Veteran. This was actually one of my favorites, too.

Nicrosil
2019-06-13, 12:03 PM
Thanks for the input Hawk! I'm hesitant to play around with action economy too much, or give people proficiency in saving throws or add it to damage, if only because I'm not good enough to balance it right. :smalltongue:

I changed out the 6th level feature for basically Commander's Strike, and let Crash Course work on instruments as well as weapon proficiency, and let you teach multiple people at once. Arcane Instruction will still only work on 1 humanoid though, just in case. If anything, I'm a bit worried that it might be a bit underpowered? Generally, if someone in the party was going to be using a weapon, they would already be proficient in it, you know? And in my experience, if one person in the party knows a language or has proficiency in a skill, effectively everyone is...

EDIT: I changed the bonus proficiencies to be 2 artisan's tools and 1 martial weapon. This should hopefully make Crash Course and Teach by Example more useful...

MoleMage
2019-06-16, 07:16 AM
Hey all, I've been phone only for the last week because my internet was down and I was waiting on them to ship me a new router. The good news is, it arrived yesterday and I can look at all of this on a larger screen now. I'll get some feedback and try to get an entry up over the next several days. I gotta say I'm impressed with how much has already happened on this contest.

nickl_2000
2019-06-17, 07:33 AM
Welcome to the contest CircuitEngie!




Apprentice - An interesting difference in an animal companion. Thank you for making the apprentice an adolescent instead of a child, although at some tables this may still be problematic (some tables don't like the idea of anyone underage being in combat). Also, can the apprentice wield magical weapons and armor if the PC were to give it to them? When an apprentice dies or you replace them, do they keep the same Advanced/Expert training options and favored terrain/enemies?

Advanced Training - Theses seem both effective and make sense thematically. I honestly don't see much that would need to be changed. That being said, I don't see much of a reason that I would have my apprentice in melee combat unless I can't avoid it. It will never have the AC needed to be able to survive well in combat.

Overall, the idea of being able to teach things that you are proficient in is extremely thematic. However, it's a little bit ineffective in group synergy. Instead of getting extra skills for the party, you just have another person that can do the same skills but not as good. There are some times where this could be helpful, for example perception and investigation when searching, but overall it feels like there would be to much overlap. I wouldn't mind seeing the Lure of the Wild ability replaced with a new concept that would add more to the party overall.

This subclass looks it looks like it would create some incredible RP chances with young allies and teaching moment and would be fun to play. It has a Ranger's Apprentice type vibe to it, which is a series I really enjoyed, so that is a positive in my book.

CircuitEngie
2019-06-17, 12:34 PM
Welcome to the contest CircuitEngie!



Apprentice - An interesting difference in an animal companion. Thank you for making the apprentice an adolescent instead of a child, although at some tables this may still be problematic (some tables don't like the idea of anyone underage being in combat). Also, can the apprentice wield magical weapons and armor if the PC were to give it to them? When an apprentice dies or you replace them, do they keep the same Advanced/Expert training options and favored terrain/enemies?

Advanced Training - Theses seem both effective and make sense thematically. I honestly don't see much that would need to be changed. That being said, I don't see much of a reason that I would have my apprentice in melee combat unless I can't avoid it. It will never have the AC needed to be able to survive well in combat.

Overall, the idea of being able to teach things that you are proficient in is extremely thematic. However, it's a little bit ineffective in group synergy. Instead of getting extra skills for the party, you just have another person that can do the same skills but not as good. There are some times where this could be helpful, for example perception and investigation when searching, but overall it feels like there would be to much overlap. I wouldn't mind seeing the Lure of the Wild ability replaced with a new concept that would add more to the party overall.

This subclass looks it looks like it would create some incredible RP chances with young allies and teaching moment and would be fun to play. It has a Ranger's Apprentice type vibe to it, which is a series I really enjoyed, so that is a positive in my book.



Thanks for the good feedback!

I'm working on a sidebar to handle some of the questions regarding magic items and the specifics of the apprentice (mainly what happens if you abuse your apprentice, similar to breaking a paladin oath). In general, you can give the apprentice magical weapons which will modify the attack/damage normally but you are limited to the weapon types they have proficiency in and you share attunement slots. I hadn't considered that there might be a question as to if a new apprentice has the same training options, so I will clarify that as well.

Maybe a shield proficiency option under Advanced Training (+2 to AC) would help the apprentice in melee, and change the Expert Training option to avoid very high AC. I want a melee apprentice to be viable, but not overwhelm other tank characters.

I could change the skills to be Ranger skills, but then I lose some of the flavor of the "Follow me" subclass thread. For example, changing "a skill you are proficient in" to "a skill from the list of Ranger skills" won't make much of a balance difference.

BerzerkerUnit
2019-06-18, 01:17 AM
Aloha, so I've glanced through the current contest's thread. Do I have to post in the official thread yet? I'm just brainstorming right now.

I'm thinking of an Intruder Rogue that creates Vantage Points.

Criminal Expertise
At 3rd level you gain proficiency in Investigation or Survival. If you are already Proficient in both skills you gain Expertise in either.

Invader
Beginning at 3rd level you can mark advantageous positions called Vantage Points based on information gathered when scouting. You must be hidden to mark a Vantage Point, and it requires a Bonus action. Only those proficient in Thieves' Cant can recognize Vantage Points unless you specifically teach them how to look for your own.

The value of Vantage Points is time sensitive. As soon as you identify a Vantage Point, an ally has one minute to occupy it and make use of its effect. Once an ally occupies a Vantage Point, its effect must be used before the end of their next turn or be wasted. You can set a number of Vantage Points equal to your Intelligence Bonus. You recover all uses of this ability after completing a short or long rest.
- Vantage Points
--Breathing Room. An ally that enters this space can use a bonus action to spend a Hit Die. They recover hit points as if the die had rolled its maximum result plus their Constitution bonus.
--Deadly Positioning. Attacks made by an ally that occupies this space deals additional damage equal to your Int Bonus.
--Power Slide. Allies can leave this square without provoking attacks of opportunity.
--Artful Cover. Allies that enter this square has cover and is lightly obscured until the beginning of their next turn.
--Ambush Point. Allies that attack surprised creatures from this position with melee or ranged weapon attacks deal an additional 2d6 damage.
--Trap. An enemy lured into this space suffers caltrops, triggers a hunter's trap, or a falling net trap. This Vantage Point requires caltrops, hunter's trap, or net.

Eye for Leverage
Beginning at 9th level you develop a keen eye for things of great personal value in a location you're scouting. You can add your Intelligence bonus to checks to recognize such items. If you have these items and use them in negotiations, you may add your Intelligence bonus to the Persuasion or Intimidation roll.

Prey on the Weak
Beginning at 13th level, if you hit a creature with advantage, the next attack directed at them before the end of your next turn also has advantage. If the attack isn't made by you, it deals an additional 2d6 damage.

17th level feature... Maybe some kind of Dreamwalk ability that lets you invade a target's mind? Something like Mordenkainen's Mansion where you use the 10 rooms to organize their memories and then you can choose to lock them away, or shuffle them around or leave a trap in the form of a Geas. Blocked by Mindblank, if the creature wakes up while you're in there you get dumped out in front of it, no prep, just on your butt.

Maybe a 5 room mansion, with youth, adulthood, venerable, and then good and bad memories. This is just trapping for a handful of Spell-likes. By moving or stealing memories you can modify memory, place a Geas. Each time you check a new room after the first they get a Save to dump you out. Each time you alter something, they get a save to avoid the effect. So you might get to see every room, but not get any effect. When you succeed on one effect the power ends and you return to where you left.

So Childhood/Youth- create an Aversion
Adulthood- create an Attraction
Venerable-Modify Memories (add false ones or take some away like time does)
Cherished Memories- place a Geas
Bad Memories- Make them afraid

I love this feature right now because it let's the DM choose whether to make this a big exposition moment for the enemy (if the big bad) or to just reduce it to a series of saving throws if its a nobody you just want to manipulate.


I might also use my Hero Class as a base and write up the Unity Hero (which is supposed to be Captain America themed).

moonfly7
2019-06-18, 07:36 AM
Hey um, I'm gonna put in my request for that two week extension now....extenuating circumstances and all that

Crisis21
2019-06-19, 11:12 AM
I have a new theme idea: In Loving Memory (create a subclass in honor of a famous deceased person)

...I call Stan Lee.

Nicrosil
2019-06-20, 02:54 PM
Out of curiosity, does anyone know of any subclass making guides? Something like a list of what type of abilities each subclass gets, like "At 3rd level barbarian subclasses get X type of feature, at 6th level they get Y type of feature, etc."?

Man_Over_Game
2019-06-20, 02:58 PM
Out of curiosity, does anyone know of any subclass making guides? Something like a list of what type of abilities each subclass gets, like "At 3rd level barbarian subclasses get X type of feature, at 6th level they get Y type of feature, etc."?

I did something like that a while back, when people asked for advice on specific classes, but I didn't compile them into a single post or anything like that.

Barbarians, for example, always go in the progression of:

3: Your really cool thing that effects how you fight in combat. Everything else simply adds to this playstyle or creates a synergy with it with a new feature.

6: Focus on Mobility, Utility or Defense, whichever you need more, based on what your 3rd level trait is. Try to diversify what you provide to the group.

10: Focus on Mobility, Utility or Defense, whichever you need more, based on what your last two traits were. Once again, diversify what you provide to the group.

14: Do what you did at level 3, where you create a new feature, but it has to tie in to how that 3rd level feature plays. Make it cool, make it worth 14 levels, and it should specifically have a bonus oriented towards combat.

I could try to come up with some guides for the other classes, if you want, but what I write up is so barebones that I'm not sure if it's even all that helpful.

Crisis21
2019-06-20, 08:52 PM
Out of curiosity, does anyone know of any subclass making guides? Something like a list of what type of abilities each subclass gets, like "At 3rd level barbarian subclasses get X type of feature, at 6th level they get Y type of feature, etc."?

As far as feature types go, there's very few hard rules, but there are a few themes such as Paladins typically getting Aura powers at 7th level. That said, I recently did a project where I created a 'universal' archetype and thus had to research what levels each class got features. Anything in brackets was an 'always' deal, but a '+' in the brackets means the class got that in addition to another full feature.


Archetype Spells (Always known/prepared - Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Paladin) (Sorcerer, Ranger, and Bard sometimes get this)

Expanded Spell List (Can learn extra spells not normally on class spell list - Warlock)

Bonus Proficiencies (Bard gets 2-3, Other classes sometimes get one or two)

1st level: 4 (Cleric, Mystic [+Bonus Disciplines], Sorcerer, Warlock)

2nd level: 3 (Cleric [1/2 Channel Divinity], Druid, Wizard)

3rd level: 9 (Artificer, Barbarian, Bard [+Bonus Proficiencies], Fighter, Monk, Mystic, Paladin [Channel Divinity], Ranger, Rogue)

6th level: 10 (Artificer, Barbarian, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Monk, Mystic, Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard)

7th level: 4 (Fighter, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue)

8th level: 1 (Cleric)

10th level: 6 (Barbarian, Druid, Fighter, Rogue, Warlock, Wizard)

11th level: 2 (Monk, Ranger)

14th level: 7 (Artificer, Barbarian, Bard, Druid, Mystic, Warlock, Wizard)

15th level: 3 (Fighter, Paladin, Ranger)

17th level: 2 (Cleric, Monk)

18th level: 2 (Fighter, Sorcerer)

20th level: 1 (Paladin [Capstone])

nickl_2000
2019-06-21, 09:08 AM
Out of curiosity, does anyone know of any subclass making guides? Something like a list of what type of abilities each subclass gets, like "At 3rd level barbarian subclasses get X type of feature, at 6th level they get Y type of feature, etc."?

This is a really, really good idea, and I haven't seen one of them out there. I'm actually starting to develop one, and will put it out there for comment once I have something that is worth sharing.


Phew, even after having done this for awhile there is a lot that goes into making a how to guide for writing subclasses. I've got a first draft of the Barbarian, Bard, Cleric, Druid, and Fighter written. So, hopefully some time next week I will have a first draft of the entire thing for other to take a look and and disagree with me about my assessments.

Crisis21
2019-06-22, 10:32 PM
This may be a bit off-topic, but are any of you interested in mcu-based archetypes? Because I've made a bunch... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?587775-Archetypes-Assemble!-(5e-Avengers))

MoleMage
2019-06-22, 10:51 PM
Hey um, I'm gonna put in my request for that two week extension now....extenuating circumstances and all that

One request noted. I had a busier week than anticipated but I think I will have a slower one coming up and can actually catch up.

nickl_2000
2019-06-24, 06:30 AM
I know everyone is busy, but is there any chance we can get more reviews/comments/updates? Feedback really helps all of us tighten down the subclasses.

sengmeng
2019-06-24, 07:05 AM
I know everyone is busy, but is there any chance we can get more reviews/comments/updates? Feedback really helps all of us tighten down the subclasses.

Seconded. Honestly, if you're reviewing my entry and don't think it currently belongs in the top 3, I'd like to hear that and know what I can do to change your mind.

I'll try to review them all at some point this week, but has anyone not yet received feedback at all?

MoleMage
2019-06-25, 08:19 AM
I've got time to put some reviews in, though I still haven't come up with an idea for my own entry. As always, if I don't mention a feature, I thought it was in a good place.



Oath spells look mostly good. Tiny Servant and Animate Objects are odd, but I can kinda get it.
Channel Divinity: Both seem to be about right. Inspiring Presence does get a little too strong if you have a big group or even just a couple allies. I would also specify whether the extra radiant damage applies to a single target or all targets for multiple-target cantrips (acid splash and eldritch blast in the PHB both can multi-target).
Aura of Leadership: This is pretty neat and not something I've seen before. It's like a limited Jack of All Trades. I like it.
King's Touch: Getting all of Lay on Hands back on a short rest is a huge benefit. I actually think it might be too strong. I like using Lay on Hands to give temporary hit points, but I would dial back the amount gained on short rest to maybe 2/5th or 3/5th of the normal amount. Maybe it's just me though (my current game has a Warlock and a Monk in the party, we like short rests).
Divine Right: This is a lot of bonuses for an always-active feature, but it's also a capstone. Since all of the options require actions to use or are mutually exclusive with at least one other option, it's probably not too overpowered but definitely still strong.


I like the theme; it's specific enough to fit player fantasy, but simple enough to fit many settings. I think some of the features offer too much overall power, but all of those features are highly defensive. I'd use this if I wanted to play a forgotten royal scion, or even just a healing-primary paladin (it's less boring than Oath of Redemption).



This appears to be down for reconstruction. Let me know when you've got the new version up and I'll get you a review.



Once again, you've taken something and turned it delightfully on its head.

Channel Divinity: Increasing your bandwidth. I would recommend getting an extra action in the style of haste instead of the style of action surge, but otherwise this is fine.

Honestly, all of the features look like they're in line, and I like that you've updated to buzzword-style feature names. My only concern is that a full action surge for any ally will have unpredictable balance across all allies. Paladins, Rangers, and Warlocks will value it more than Rogues or Monks. (Doubling opportunities for Smite or application of Hex/Hunter's Mark).





Charming Song: It's essential to the identity, and I think you've captured it well. I would suggest allowing a new save at advantage or even just outright shrugging off the effect for one minute when injured, though. Right now it could end up trapping a troll or other low charisma enemy permanently while your party attacks them and they have very little chance of escape.
Musical Expertise: At this point, Charming Song basically locks down whatever creature (other than creatures with Legendary Resistance) you use it on.
Other than Charming Song improving at 14th level, do you have another 14th level feature planned? If not, I would separate out the Charming Song improvement into its own feature to make the subclass look more complete.


A faithful rendition of a classic tale, but possibly a little too easy to permanently control creatures while your friends cut them to ribbons.



I can't complain about a deliberate representation of such an iconic wizard.


Rallying Spell: I would specify a "spell of 1st level or higher". It's effectively that already (since a cantrip has no spell slot and therefor affects 0 allies), but it would be more in line with normal wording for such features.
Battle Secrets: There's a lot to unpack here. I'm okay with increased character options myself, but I do know that a more straightforward approach tends to do better at voting. It would also be nice if these were organized either in groups by prerequisite or theme or alphabetically.



Focus Weapon should require Martial Student.
Extra Attack probably should as well.
Spell and Sword in Accord should have a limited number of uses; otherwise it's pretty reliably going to lead to quickened spells, especially when considering Arcane Archer or Insightful Strike.
Heart Ward requires Inspiring Spell, but you've renamed the feature Arcane Inspiration.
Staff Master: Since no battle secret gives shield proficiency and you can perform somatic components with the same hand you hold a focus in, the ability to hold your staff in one hand doesn't add much. It's still a lower investment option than Focus Weapon, though.
Spellsniper shares its name with a PHB feat.



Arcane Inspiration. My concern here is that the Grey Wizard now is better at doing the bard's job than the bard. Even assuming it's a spell of 1st level or higher (which the feature doesn't specify at the moment), the Wizard has 10 spells at this point, plus up to 3 more through Arcane Recovery. If all of those are single-target buff spells and the Bard has 18 charisma, the Wizard will output 1 more die than the bard. On top of that, wizards get access to multiple-target spells, though few that are buff spells. I would put some more restrictions on this, starting with the "spell of 1st level or higher" restriction, but also defining what constitutes casting a spell on someone (does a fireball dodged due to evasion, or a poison cloud used on an ally immune to poison? What about Sleep on allies with too many hit points to be affected?). I would also recommend limiting this to one target per spell, otherwise the Bard may as well go home.
Arcane Inspiration: I didn't mention it above, because it's a separate concern. When considering the Rallying Spell feature, Arcane Inspiration is thematically redundant. Both stack with each other, so it's mechanically very strong (Advantage plus 1d6 inspiration plus whatever buff? That's a nice big stack of bonuses), but it doesn't expand the choices the wizard has.
Chromatic Metamorphosis: I love the trigger condition (I used a similar one on my Destined class, though it was an active ability). The daylight function should probably have a limited duration; when it comes up, it's going to be extremely strong. It's niche enough that I can let it be though.



Overall, I really like the theme, but I think Arcane Inspiration could use some tightening up. Battle Secrets could possibly be pared down (both number known and the total list) as well, as many options are unappealing (Staff Master and Triage are weaker than Focus Weapon and Ancient Tactics, for example).



An interestingly literal take on the contest.

Marked for a Swift End: The wording on this is hard to follow. The first part (regarding Dodge) is fine, but the second part (regarding the bonus to hit) is problematic. On top of that, the monk need not reach the target on their first turn to trigger the effect, but allies do need to reach the target on their first turn to gain the benefit. I would simplify this feature. It also might be worth separating the Wisdom to Initiative into its own feature.
Marked for a Swift End: Dodge for a full minute against the target can be crazy good against big boss monsters like dragons. It also encourages leaving the target of the Mark alive until all other enemies are defeated (as it is less effective in its attacks), which is counter to the described theme of the ability. I would make the baseline effect increased damage and leave the shared effect for if the monk triggers the bonus as-is.
Follow, with Haste: Why does this have a duration? It seems like it should just be a passive with no duration. Right now, those allies get the bonus for a minute after they stop acting after you on initiative.
Danger at the Fore: The cost on this is probably a little too high on top of the long rest restriction. 2 or 3 would be sufficient.
The End Brought About: I was so confused at first when I read this feature. I understood it once I got to the end, but leading in with the Unarmed Attack roll, I thought it was a feature that let you kick your ally in the face when they fell just for the fun of it. The healing should be reduced (I recommend 10 + 5*Die) or the Ki increased (maybe 5ish). Even with the drawbacks, 10 times a d10 is potentially a lot of hit points.

I think you've given yourself a good theme, but not all of your features necessarily fit it. As mentioned, Mark of the Swift End encourages just the opposite, to draw out its defensive benefits. The ki costs also need a touchup. If you decide to update this, let me know and I'll get another review up for the updates.


I'll be back this afternoon with a second post for the rest of the classes. Great work so far!

nickl_2000
2019-06-25, 09:25 AM
I've got time to put some reviews in, though I still haven't come up with an idea for my own entry. As always, if I don't mention a feature, I thought it was in a good place.

Once again, you've taken something and turned it delightfully on its head.

Channel Divinity: Increasing your bandwidth. I would recommend getting an extra action in the style of haste instead of the style of action surge, but otherwise this is fine.

Honestly, all of the features look like they're in line, and I like that you've updated to buzzword-style feature names. My only concern is that a full action surge for any ally will have unpredictable balance across all allies. Paladins, Rangers, and Warlocks will value it more than Rogues or Monks. (Doubling opportunities for Smite or application of Hex/Hunter's Mark).


Thanks MoleMage, I will watch for yours when it comes up :)

I can explain my reasoning for giving a full action rather than just an extra attack. You are using up a resource and an action of your own to give something to someone else. It seems like my sacrifice of an action just to give someone else 1 attack (during their turn) just isn't all that great. As it is currently, I'm giving up my action and a channel divinity to give someone else an action. Which is theory is a net loss of resources.

It ends up being a tactical choice of giving that action because they are in a better position or have fitting spells. I do agree that it will have a very disparate affect on different classes, but if I limited it to only an attack it wouldn't be all that useful to give to a non melee character. This way seemed like it would be more useful on more classes than other options. I am certainly open to other thoughts though.

MoleMage
2019-06-25, 03:12 PM
Some more feedback!



Tactical Awareness: I like the first two bullet points, but while the last bullet point is not too strong, I worry about the effect it will have on party specialization. If everyone shares skill proficiencies (and tool proficiencies), it only matters who has the highest ability score, barring Expertise. I don't think it's overpowered, just that it could reduce player satisfaction if someone else uses their skills.
Strategic Regrouping: If the range is 1 or 6 miles, how far does the party move to regroup? Do they teleport or cross intervening distance? 10 minutes is a little long for the saving throw bonuses. I would say they are each proficient in the next saving throw they make, and leave the travel portion at the 10 minute mark.
Stalker Veteran is a nice, if subtle, power boost. It would take a certain party but at level 11 you've had time to develop it.
Marshal's Command needs a duration. It's otherwise fine, though it should be at level 15 for the PHB ranger.


Overall, the class is useful if a little bland. I think that empowering party members to do their tasks better would be more fun for the table than allowing them to do each others' tasks.



We had the civil king paladin above, now we have the savage barbarian king here. Both solid fantasy tropes that needed filling.


Undaunted Horde: The "before the beginning of your next turn" part is unnecessary. I like the feature. It gives a rare but solid-feeling bonus and is nicely offensive to complement the barbarian getting in the thick of things.
Reckless Frenzy: I've never seen a per-ally resource written like that. It's fairly clean. I would say that it should be a limited number of allies, but since they can only use it once and they must accept the drawback it's probably fine.
War Cry: 3 times is pretty frequent for such a powerful feature. I'd limit it to one use per long rest. It also isn't clear whether it affects allies who are currently within range or allies who are in range when you use it.


I like this. It doesn't have a lot of depth, but it does expand the options of the barbarian and their party, so I would say it's a good subclass as-is.



Another barbarian ruler! I like barbarians myself, so this is great.


Lone Wolf Dies: This is a good way to share the benefit. I will mention that 3rd level usually expands rage, but I'm not terribly tied to that particular nuance of barbarian subclasses.
Top Dog: I understand what you're trying to do here, but it should probably also be clear that if the barbarian or his friends are actively attacking, the enemies do not need to make the save.
The Pack Survives: 10th level barbarian is not a combat upgrade normally. I'm a little more invested in that trend than the 3rd level being rage-based, because it affects the balance of barbarians. Top Dog would fit here better; War Howl could be level 6 and this would be a good level 14 feature.
War Howl: As I implied above, I think this would be fine earlier on. It's a good feature, but it comes with some baked in limitations (what the Help action is capable of, the requirement to use a bonus action, the requirement to be raging) that make it actually less impressive than The Pack Survives.



I think this is good, but the features don't always come along with the power appropriate for their level, and Top Dog needs a little bit more in the way of counter-options.



I usually think that the Warlord is a role that fighters should fulfill baseline, but a subclass is probably more appropriate on reflection.


Master Tactician: I would restrict the shared action surge to a single weapon attack (like an opportunity attack), but otherwise all of the bullets here are okay. It does add a number of different features, but no more than Battlemaster.
Rally the Troops: Incentivises Charisma, but it comes at level 6. I would put a Charisma-controlled ribbon feature at 3 so players know to expect Charisma to be important.
Our Finest Hour: You are now a fully-fledged backup healer. I like the idea that martial characters can fill a healing role, though.
Lead from the Front: This should probably have a maximum number of affected targets. Alternately, make this a bonus that you can use on top of your old benefits once per long rest (meaning you have to choose which action to provide it to). Sharing Action surge with a squad of archers turns enemies into pincushions too easily otherwise.



For all that every one of this subclass's features are just ways of sharing existing fighter features with allies, it doesn't feel boring. I think that if you tone down the potential for action surge abuse on Lead from the Front you'll be in a good position.



I'll be honest, this isn't what I expected when you said minionmancer. It's a fresh take.


Beguiling Influence: This is interesting. Sorcerers are already kings of concentration (being the only spellcasting class other than Eldritch Knight to get Con proficiency, but this basically ties it up permanently. I also like the ability to erase single acts from the target's memory; it adds a lot of roleplaying potential. One concern is that the party will potentially be able to trivialize encounters for their level by ensorcelling a creature much more powerful than them. A CR cap based on level would mitigate this.
Token of Favor: Does discarding the token remove Beguiling Influence? It seems like it should (especially if enacted by the sorceress), but it doesn't appear to in the text of the feature.
Intrusive Thoughts: It's a nice little bonus; communication spells are often overlooked despite their potential for use.
Throngs of the Beholden: As with intrusive thoughts, it's a nice little bonus. They actually pair together really well also.
Idolized: I would make the use of Idolized require a sorcery point to cast from their space. Everything else is fine, though it isn't clear how senses would work if the sorcerer is able to have that many built-in arcane eyes.



Overall, I have mixed feelings about this subclass. If used as intended, it would be fine, but it does have a very high potential for exploitation due to the unlimited nature of creating thralls. I'm inclined to vote on it as if played by a reasonable person, because I don't see a way to limit the exploitability without cutting the soul of the subclass away.



Guerilla warfare, business management. We're one Squire-Training Paladin away from this being the first contest to have all of my suggested theme interpretations!


Pre-Mortem's usage time is pretty long when compared to its maximum "range" as it were. I'd make it a minute to talk through for up to 30 minutes in the future.
Conspire is a good out of combat feature, and I like that it's Intelligence keyed. That said, an Intelligence-keyed feature earlier in the class would be nice to indicate that it's important for this subclass.
Focus Fire: I would swap the values so the ally gets the bigger bonus. Otherwise, I think it's about right for the subclass capstone.


Really gives the feeling that good preparation pays off, which is important in a guerilla class. Good work!



It really does seem the most logical extension of the Bard Subclass name.

Bonus Proficiencies: Wow, that's a lot of proficiencies. Tools and Languages are typically weaker than skills though, so you're fine.
Crash Course: Requires some preparation to do, but it's nice. It allows everyone to share your many, many languages as needed also, which is nice if often ignored at my table.
Arcane Instruction: This is new. I actually really like it, and with the 1st-level restriction it's probably balanced. I would specify that the casting of that spell doesn't require spell slots (this will both allow non-casters to benefit and prevent spellcasters from upcasting this 1st level spell with higher slots).

It really is a shame that bards have such a short subclass. There is a lot of potential for expansion in the various Bard Colleges that I think is being ignored, and this College is no exception.



I'm going to count it as the "take a squire" in my suggestion list and call this a complete set! That's only exciting to me though.

The Apprentice functions in much the same way as beast master ranger's animal companion, but it has slightly more hit points (5 per level instead of 4 per level, plus it gets your Con). I would reduce the overall number of hit points for the apprentice.
Advanced Training: Covers a good array while each option is itself easy to apply. Longbow Training should also increase the range of the apprentice's ranged attack to 150/600. I assume each feature can only be taken once; this should be specified in the feature (if not, features which can be taken multiple times should specify such).
Expert Training: Does Two-Weapon Fighting work with Longsword training? As it's written it should, but that is non-standard for TWF.
Expidited Lessons: More restrictive than bardic inspiration, but it should be since this isn't a bard. It's a good feature, if a little bit underwhelming for a level 15 feature. I'd like to see another Apprentice bonus at this level.

Overall, I actually really like this subclass. Dial down the Apprentice HP sans-toughness and you'll be in a good place.


That should be everyone. If I skipped you, it was on accident; let me know and I'll remedy it post-haste. As an additional note, I would like to see more people offering feedback. It doesn't have to be for every entry, but if you could take the time to pick one or two, it means a lot to keeping this contest running.

Nicrosil
2019-06-25, 04:00 PM
Some more feedback!

(Snip)



Thanks for the feedback! I agree that the bonus proficiencies might be a bit much; I debated making it up to 3 of artisan tools proficiency, martial weapon proficiency, or a language... but I'm not sure how to elegantly word that, or if it's even needed.

Speaking of wording, how should I word Arcane Instruction to make it clear that it doesn't use spell slots? I can probably just copy it from a monster with innate casting, or a race that can cast spells like tieflings or something.

Also I'm planning on giving feedback for everyone else; just take everything I say with a grain of salt. :smallredface:

MoleMage
2019-06-25, 04:05 PM
Thanks for the feedback! I agree that the bonus proficiencies might be a bit much; I debated making it up to 3 of artisan tools proficiency, martial weapon proficiency, or a language... but I'm not sure how to elegantly word that, or if it's even needed.

Speaking of wording, how should I word Arcane Instruction to make it clear that it doesn't use spell slots? I can probably just copy it from a monster with innate casting, or a race that can cast spells like tieflings or something.

Also I'm planning on giving feedback for everyone else; just take everything I say with a grain of salt. :smallredface:

Warlocks also have this. The standard wording is just "you can cast X without consuming a spell slot."

Vogie
2019-06-25, 09:52 PM
Some Thoughts, slowly from the top-

Inspiring Presence is probably broken - basically a better Inspiring Leader feat, as it has no cap of targets, is a bonus action instead of an rousing speech, and also makes them all scoot like you're a Glamour bard giving the ol' razzle dazzle. I'd suggest capping something - either less THP, less targets, something. For reference, Mantle of Inspiration does a flat 5-14 THP (depending on level) to up to 5 creatures (based on Charisma mod).

Love aura of leadership. You're 100% a wrestling coach.

King's Touch is a nice... touch. I really like it

I don't think the King's Touch effect should be duplicated with Divine Right... I can see both players and DMs going "Which version of Lay on Hands are we doing?"
I also wouldn't reference Short Rests at all - they just spend hit dice, and heal equal to roll + Con Mod.
Why reference your 1/Rest Channel divinity options at all here? Since this class can already boop out LoH as a bonus action, you already share the love the normal way. I think these should trigger on just LoH uses and maybe spell casts on other players, Order-Cleric-Style.

Vestige's Disciple
Come'on I love me some warlock goodness.

Middle Management
I need me some bandwidth. Normal naming conventions aside, This is great.

All creatures within hearing range? Yikes. I like the appeal, but there's no way that's balanced. However, we can certainly get there.
What I'd do is make it more of a ranged version of the Enchantment Wizard's Hypnotic Gaze (although you'd just reduce the speed instead of dropping it to zero, and they won't be incapacitated), and have it capped. Normally bards are using the BI dice for this level of feature, so I'd suggest doing that - expend one use of your Bardic Inspiration to charm BI die+Charisma mod number of creatures of that type.

Musical expertise is odd - expertise in playing instruments? Sure, I guess. Giving everyone disadvantage on your Charming song throw(s)? DAMN. It was already OP, now moreso. I'd like to follow the theme of the bard doing things - Maybe you can make Musical Mockery, using your instruments to (essentially) twin Vicious Mockery on multiple targets that you can't charm

I think there should be more at 14. Being able to charm both Bugbears AND Goblins are great, but lets do some more things. Perhaps you can lean into the mind control aspects and do things with the Compulsion spell. Perhaps you just change it so when your spells normally require a Wisdom save, you can force a Charisma Save instead.


Rallying Spell doesn't work great offensively without a range extension on the help action... I'd just spell out exactly what happens instead of referring to the help action in this case. Otherwise, steal the Mastermind wording. Once it works, It'll could be awesome. However, Arcane inspiration is just a Cleaner ability overall... I'd just stick with this.

Having both an active feature AND Battle secrets is a bit much... doubly so since you're getting 2, and one of them is friggin' improved critical.

I'd probably Just stick with 2 Battle secrets at level 2. There's a lot going on in the battle secrets, and having additional features on top of that (and full wizard spellcasting) is a bit overloaded.

Chromatic metamorphosis is neat, but I find it odd that it's a one-off switch. It's only as dramatic as the situation you find yourself in.

Segev
2019-06-26, 12:10 PM
Some more feedback!

Fair One Sorcerer
I'll be honest, this isn't what I expected when you said minionmancer. It's a fresh take.Thanks! I was initially going an entirely different direction, but the ideas I kept coming up with for that direction that worked pulled this way, while those that felt in theme for the other (it was a sort of Thallherd like thing) just kept falling apart as too complicated or doing too much to fight the existing class and systems of 5e.


Beguiling Influence: This is interesting. Sorcerers are already kings of concentration (being the only spellcasting class other than Eldritch Knight to get Con proficiency, but this basically ties it up permanently. I also like the ability to erase single acts from the target's memory; it adds a lot of roleplaying potential. One concern is that the party will potentially be able to trivialize encounters for their level by ensorcelling a creature much more powerful than them. A CR cap based on level would mitigate this.It is only the Charmed condition, not the "regards you as a friendly acquaintance" thing that is the charm monster spell. Really, all it does is mean they can't attack her, and she gets Advantage on Charisma checks. That super-powerful thing is only joining up if the party does amazingly well on Charisma, and at that point, having Advantage probably wasn't the clincher. Unless I'm missing something?

Edit to add: I should also mention that the memory-drop effect will expressly allow friends to serve as a staple stunt for the Fair One to Beguile people, since it automatically makes them hostile. She casts friends, walks up, does whatever with Advantage on Charisma, and then they realize what she did. The moment they act on that hostility in any way, she can Beguile them and, if they fail their Wisdom save, make them forget she cast friends, thus the whole reason why and fact that they were hostile. I hope I made that kind-of obvious by calling friends out in the description of the ability as an example of something that could be forgotten. End Edit


Token of Favor: Does discarding the token remove Beguiling Influence? It seems like it should (especially if enacted by the sorceress), but it doesn't appear to in the text of the feature.The general idea is that it wouldn't, but only because my thoughts are that she'd have long since ceased Concentration on the batch of Beguiling Influences that the token-bearer might've been a part of. Thinking about the specific situation where she hasn't yet done so, but still chooses to revoke the Favor and inflict Psychic damage, which expressly doesn't break Beguiling Influence, I'm thinking this still is working as intended. He remains Charmed, as well as being Heartsick.

Remember, again: it's only Advantage for her on Charisma checks, and he can't attack her. It doesn't actually give her any direct control. But this would further cement how devastating losing her Favor is.

But again, if she's already ceased Concentration on whatever Beguiling Influence set he was a part of, it ended long ago. The Token just kept him Charmed in spite of other influences having ended.

It's also worth noting that any condition that makes a subject Charmed by her enables her to give the Token out.

The real scary part of this power is how it might also extend riders of higher-level Charm abilities. If, for instace, she gives it to somebody hit by dominate person (http://5e.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dominatePerson.htm), which has the clause, "While the target is charmed, you have a telepathic link..." that lets you exert control, the fact that the Token extends this Charm indefinitely is pretty darned potent. (Note, though, that despite the Token reasserting Charms, it can be suppressed by effects which grant new saving throws, and domianate person grants a new saving throw each time the subject takes damage at all. So the complexities of specific Charm-inducing effects is a double-edged sword, here.)

This is sort of the meat-and-potatoes of the whole subclass, meant to turn all those "Charmed" effects into means of making long-term minions that can be sent out to do her bidding far from her. This is also why Intrusive Thoughts and Throngs of the Beholden and even Idolized do things to improve her ability to monitor and communicate with her adoring fans.


Intrusive Thoughts: It's a nice little bonus; communication spells are often overlooked despite their potential for use.
Throngs of the Beholden: As with intrusive thoughts, it's a nice little bonus. They actually pair together really well also.Thanks! I tried to make all of these features interconnect and be greater together than individually, building on each other.

Idolized: I would make the use of Idolized require a sorcery point to cast from their space. Everything else is fine, though it isn't clear how senses would work if the sorcerer is able to have that many built-in arcane eyes.
This was something I waffled on, and decided to err on the side of power, because I like scrying effects. It may be too strong. As written, she simply does see through all of them. It may be better to allow her to cast treat any one of them as an active arcane eye at a time, switching as a bonus action on her turn. This would limit a little where she could use the spellcasting from. Adding the sorcery point cost would be a valid alternative.


Overall, I have mixed feelings about this subclass. If used as intended, it would be fine, but it does have a very high potential for exploitation due to the unlimited nature of creating thralls. I'm inclined to vote on it as if played by a reasonable person, because I don't see a way to limit the exploitability without cutting the soul of the subclass away. It's not entirely unlimited: there's a committed sorcery point for each Token beyond the first. That can get up to 21 Tokens, admittedly, but at that point she's not exactly using metamagic or getting a lot of spells.

...ah, there's a slight flaw in this. The "can't get it back" thing raises questions regarding how burning spells to SP works. I'll need to clarify that.

The idea behind it is less that you have a travelling minion escorting you (though you can use it that way), and more that you can send agents - potentially powerful ones - out into the world to do your bidding and act in your name. That, and everybody in town is unable to bring themselves to harm you, even if they hate you. And those who don't hate you probably like you a whole lot, if you've been exercising your Charisma Advantage to make yourself likable.


Made the following change to Throngs:


She may create additional tokens beyond her first, but for each such token beyond the first, she must commit a Sorcery Point until that token is rejected or revoked. Committed sorcery points are spent, but count against the maximum she may have as if she still had them, so the Sorceress with a maximum of 14 Sorcery Points who has 5 committed cannot have more than 9 uncommtted Sorcery Points.

And Idolized now reads as follows:


At 18th level, the sorceress's connection to those upon whom she's bestowed her favor is such that they can call to her for aid. She may treat any one of her active tokens as an arcane eye, and may switch which she is looking through as a bonus action on her turn. Any bearer of a token my cast sending, targeting her, without spending a spell slot and with only needing a verbal component (a plea for her attention). While looking through the token as a scrying sensor of any sort, she may spend a Sorcery Point to act as if standing in the square of the bearer of that token for purposes of casting any spell she knows, and if needed, the bearer of that token may expend a Reaction to deliver a touch spell cast in this fashion on her behalf.

Idolized's change is simply to reduce the number of arcane eyes she has at once to one, though she can swap between tokens fairly freely. It also does make her have to spend an SP to use a bearer as a source for her spells, and now expressly lets the bearer deliver touch spells for her (as a reaction).



The idea, here, is that a bearer calls to her for aid, she shifts her attention to his token, and then she can back him up with her magic. All without her being anywhere near the danger.

Man_Over_Game
2019-06-27, 10:00 AM
I'd like to second the request for an extension. Just had a lot of work come up in the last month, and haven't been able to review anyone else's fully because of it (as well as neglecting my own).

Vogie
2019-06-27, 11:45 AM
More musings

I'm a sucker for marking mechanics
You could probably reduce it to just a "When you roll initiative" to cut down on the size. Perma-dodge seems too good against single boss monsters- I could see something like "whenever an ally uses the dodge action they can make a single attack or cast a cantrip as a bonus action. Cantrips used this way must have a casting time of 1 action and must target only that creature."

Follow with Haste - probably should be renamed because Haste is a known quantity in 5e. There doesn't need to be a duration on this, and it should read rounded up to the nearest 5 feet.

Danger at the Fore is awesome

The end brought about is... odd. I like how it fits with the theme, but "you might punch your allies to death" isn't a great effect. The ability to dash around to bring someone back from the brink once per short/long rest is pretty cool all by itself




Tactical Awareness may be a bit broken - It's effectively a Rary's Telepathic bond, a 5th level spell, but for a single 1st level spell slot, and longer as you scale up. Sharing ALL skill modifiers sounds like a pain. However, there are some fairly easy fixes for these. I'd limit the communication to the Message cantrip which everyone learns as part of this ability, and have the Marshall allow others to use SOME of his/her modifiers - either "everything this ranger is proficient in" or specific ranger-y things like Athletics, Stealth, Nature & Perception.

Flanking tactics are cool, but I'd choose one - either use an action to designate OR designate via missing the target. I'd lean towards missing the target, as it gives that flanking/distracting flavor

Strategic regroup is cool, but 10 minutes is too long. Even with you lengthening the PA effect to 1 hour per level, I doubt most rangers are going to use their precious few spell slots on it. Just make this a reaction and have it refresh on S/L rest OR refresh every time you use PA.

Stalker veteran is neat

Marshal's command Seems cool, but it's normally a 15th level, not 14 feature. We're running into the "cast spells after spending slots on PA"... You only have 12 spell slots at 15 - how many are you expecting the ranger to use for PA? Also, the 15th level feature for Rangers tends to utilize the Reaction in some way (except the strange Primeval Guardian UA)


Undaunted Horde Seems really strong - being immune to charms/frighten is what a 'Zerker gets at 6 for themselves, and you're making it aoe at 3.

I could see something about your blows make targets less frightening and/or charming each time you hit. That'd be focused enough it wouldn't be OP.

Reckless frenzy will fundamentally change how encounters work, as you're giving all of the rogue and champions advantage for (almost) free, in addition to breaking the action economy with reaction strikes. Most single monsters likely won't survive this. I'd want this to have some sort of cooldown or limiter, because otherwise it's just unlimited melee-only faerie fire.

Imposing leader and War Cry are fine

Crisis21
2019-06-27, 12:22 PM
I have made changes to College of the Pied Piper as follows:

Base range for Charming Song is 60 feet. Creatures that are injured get the new saving throw at advantage and if they succeed they become immune to the effects so long as immediate threats to life and limb remain (such as hostile creatures).

I let them learn more musical instruments.

I added a second use of Charming Song per long rest at 6th level.

Multi-group targeting removed.

Added Song of Rage to let the Bard whip a crowd (or their allies) into a Barbarian-like frenzy. Either/or with Charming Song (i.e. using either depletes Charming Song uses).

New 14th level feature: Disadvantage on saves versus expertise musical instrument moved here. Regain one use of Charming Song after a short rest.


Review of other subclasses:

An interesting paladin class to be sure, but in addition to needing some lore there's a few things I'm not wild about.

King's Touch recharging full Lay on Hands after a short rest. Maybe up to half of the maximum Lay on Hands pool instead?

Divine Right looks way different from most Paladin capstones, which are 1-minute transformations. Some of the effects, like at-will Command, are potentially broken without that time limit.

As it stands right now, it is extremely incomplete with only an expanded spell list and a 1st-level feature.

Disciples of the Forgotten sounds like an interesting concept, but the way it's presented makes it sound very lackluster. I honestly don't think I'd want generic villain mooks following me around hanging on my every word.

I got a chuckle out of this, but the wording and language needs to be cleaned up a bit.

Having an extra Channel Divinity option at 6th level is a bit different, but it sound interesting.

Overall, it's funny and interesting but I can't say I love it.

Rallying Spell is really restrictive in its wording. Needlessly so in my opinion. Maybe change it to 'When you cast a spell using a spell slot of 1st level or higher, you may take the Help action as a bonus action to assist any ally withing 30 feet of you.

Battle Secrets: Some of these are interesting, but some others are confusing and others are just not worth it (Insightful Defense in particular I'd advise changing to AC of 10 + Dexterity modifier + Intelligence modifier when not wearing armor). Language in general needs to be cleaned up and made clearer. The ones that grant Expertise need the prerequisite of having proficiency in the relevant skill. I'd also rearrange these to be in alphabetical order to make browsing them easier.

Arcane Inspiration does not seem to have a limit on how many times it can be used (other than your number of spell slots). It should have a harder limit.

Chromatic Metamorphosis... What? ...I'm sorry, but no. This is way too confusingly worded and what little I can understand is too restrictive in its use. I'd advise getting rid of this entirely and just adding in something that grants more battle secrets and/or improves Arcane Inspiration.

Follow, With Haste - I dislike the way this seems to penalize allies for rolling higher than you on initiative.

Danger at the Fore - Move the text about usage and recharge to the end of the feature.

The End Brought About - Risky. The penalty for missing makes me want to avoid using this, but the thought of punching someone back to life is amusing.

I have to say, I love the way this makes use of the Primeval Awareness feature and buffs it to a point that I'd honestly consider using it not only regularly but as a mainstay of a Ranger. Can't say it's my favorite subclass here, but it's definitely a solid contender.

Needs some lore badly.

Undaunted Horde - Confusingly worded and has a lot of moving parts to it.

Reckless Frenzy - Also confusingly worded.

Imposing Leader - 10th level is really late to be getting a new proficiency. I'd just give advantage and allow Intimidation to replace Persuasion.

War Cry seems fairly solid though.

Honestly, this whole archetype could use a revamp. Maybe make it so that when you rage you can grant allies within range of you certain benefits of your rage with those benefits increasing as the archetype progresses?

Archetype needs lore badly.

The Lone Wolf Dies - Solid feature.

Top Dog - I'd advise possibly replacing the Charisma Saving throw with a Wisdom (Insight) check against your passive Intimidation. I'd also add a sentence at the end stating that this feature does not prevent creatures from joining combat once it has begun, only that it stops them from starting combat.

The Pack Survives - I'd remove the part about a creature needing to have advantage on an attack roll against you. Just them being within 5 feet of you should be enough to impose disadvantage on attacking anyone other than you.

War Howl - Awesome. Don't change a thing.

Archetype needs lore badly.

Master Tactician - Change 'proficiency in Initiative' to 'Advantage on Initiative rolls'. Move Skill or Tool proficiency to a Bonus Proficiency feature.

Rally the Troops - Solid, maybe a bit overpowered, but not by much.

Never Give Up! Never Surrender! - Change the wording of the first part to just say 'you gain a second use of your Second Wind feature'. Do the same for Our Finest Hour.

Lead From the Front - Very overpowered.

Archetype needs lore badly.

Dear lord this is ridiculously overpowered. These features need some hard limits on how many times they can be used stat.

The wording is also very verbose and hard to wade through to understand what is supposed to be happening with the features.

I would not allow this at any table I played at in its current form.

All types of vehicles? Even flying?

Coordinated Attack - Subtract 1d6 Sneak Attack damage to have the wizard cast a (1-4)d6 cantrip or the barbarian land a 1d12+STR greataxe? No-brainer. When you allow a player an option, there should be some possible benefit to them choosing differently.

Pre-Mortem - So, basically sanctioned meta-gaming?

Conspire - Remove the wording about distance. If you're spending part of a rest doing this, it can be assumed your allies are close enough to conspire with you.

Focus Fire - Wait, so instead of losing 1d6 Sneak Attack damage from Coordinated Attack, you *gain* 1d6 damage and buff your buddy as well? Why would you ever choose to do anything else?

Archetype needs lore badly.

Looks like a solid and interesting archetype.

Archetype needs lore badly.

Apprentice - So, basically you have a humanoid animal companion? That's... very strange and honestly off-putting. Cannot say I like the concept in general.

I'm sorry, but this entire archetype really creeps me out and not even in a 'hey, this might make a good villain' way.

Segev
2019-06-27, 01:47 PM
The Fair OneArchetype needs lore badly.

Dear lord this is ridiculously overpowered. These features need some hard limits on how many times they can be used stat.

The wording is also very verbose and hard to wade through to understand what is supposed to be happening with the features.

I would not allow this at any table I played at in its current form

The only uncapped one is how many people can be kept Charmed by Beguiling Influence; that's controlled by Concentration, which has plenty of competition for what else to do with it, and can't be maintained through a long rest. The others are capped at 1 (Token of Favor) or by how many SP you want to commit to it (Throngs).

The wording is an issue. I struggled with it to get it down to where it is, because the effects are a little fiddly and I wanted to avoid really stupid off-shoots. I'm open to suggestions for clean-up, though.

If you could give some more specifics on what you think needs capping and why, though, I'm also open to that.

nickl_2000
2019-06-27, 02:16 PM
I got a chuckle out of this, but the wording and language needs to be cleaned up a bit.

Having an extra Channel Divinity option at 6th level is a bit different, but it sound interesting.

Overall, it's funny and interesting but I can't say I love it.



The channel divinity choice at level 6 is something that you see in official sources at times.
I.E. Knowledge Domain, Trickery Domain, War Domain

Anywhere in particular you see wording that needs tightened up?

BerzerkerUnit
2019-06-27, 02:26 PM
I'm sorry, but this entire archetype really creeps me out and not even in a 'hey, this might make a good villain' way.

Thanks? I know The Shadow King Amal Farouk and Freddy Krueger share some design space so Iím not surprised.

theVoidWatches
2019-06-27, 03:50 PM
[QUOTE=Crisis21;24000652]
Review of other subclasses:

An interesting paladin class to be sure, but in addition to needing some lore there's a few things I'm not wild about.

King's Touch recharging full Lay on Hands after a short rest. Maybe up to half of the maximum Lay on Hands pool instead?

Divine Right looks way different from most Paladin capstones, which are 1-minute transformations. Some of the effects, like at-will Command, are potentially broken without that time limit.

Lore will come when I have time. I'll try to get it in before the end of the contest.

Lay on Hands is never really all that much in comparison to full-casting healers, who can toss around stuff like Heal by this level. I think that boosting it to a short rest feature helps keep the paladin workable as a healer in the last tier of the game.
It might be a bit much to both make it short rest and let you grant temp HP as a bonus action, though...

Most paladin capstones are transformations, yes, but Redemption Paladins have an always-on effect, so it's not unprecedented. I also think it makes more sense given that being a monarch isn't the kind of thing you can pick up and put down when you're done.
Command is a first level spell. Wizards can pick a 1st level spell to cast infinitely two levels before this Paladin gets it (and they get to choose that spell, too, plus they get a 2nd level spell as well). I don't think it's broken, particularly for a capstone (which tend to have wacky balance anyway), particularly given that you can't cast it on someone who's made their save.

Crisis21
2019-06-27, 05:52 PM
The only uncapped one is how many people can be kept Charmed by Beguiling Influence; that's controlled by Concentration, which has plenty of competition for what else to do with it, and can't be maintained through a long rest. The others are capped at 1 (Token of Favor) or by how many SP you want to commit to it (Throngs).

The wording is an issue. I struggled with it to get it down to where it is, because the effects are a little fiddly and I wanted to avoid really stupid off-shoots. I'm open to suggestions for clean-up, though.

If you could give some more specifics on what you think needs capping and why, though, I'm also open to that.

Even if it takes up Concentration, infinite charming is a deal-breaker. There is no limit on uses, no limit on how many creatures can be charmed at once, and no limit on how often it can be reapplied to the same target if they break free.

Token of favor apparently perma-charms a creature and they can only break free for one round at a time? And if they manage to get rid of the item enabling them to be perma-charmed they suffer horrendous side effects and can be repeatedly punished regardless of distance? Even without enabling multiple uses of this at 14th level it's broken as hell.

And apparently there's infinite magical communication on top of all that.

Just... no.


The channel divinity choice at level 6 is something that you see in official sources at times.
I.E. Knowledge Domain, Trickery Domain, War Domain

Anywhere in particular you see wording that needs tightened up?

Hold on a moment, let me get my colored text...



Reaching Out
You are adept at making other people like you, at least for the short periods of time. After they get to know you, well that is a little bit more trouble. As such, at level 1, you learn the friendship cantrip if you donít already have it, and cast it as a cleric spell. This counts as a Cleric cantrip for you and does not count against your number of cantrips known.

Employee Empowerment
At level 1, you can finally apply all that management training from school to encourage your employees to do the best possible job. On your turn, you may use the Help action as a bonus action on any ally within 60 feet. to give one ally advantage on their next attack roll or skill check within the next minute. You must be within 60 feet and be able to see your ally. You may use this ability a number of times equal to your wisdom modifier and regain all expended uses when you complete a long rest.

Channel Divinity: Increasing your bandwidth
At level 2, you may use your channel divinity to force extra work out of those underneath you. As an action, you present your holy symbol and evoke the powers of your deity. Choose an ally you can see and is within 60 feet of you. During that ally's next turn, they gain an extra action per the action surge ability.

Channel Divinity: You are mission critical
At level 6, you may use your channel divinity to bolster an ally, whether they like it or not. As a reaction to a creature within 60 feet that you can see being rendered unconscious, you may present your holy symbol and evoke your deity. You heal that creature for twice your cleric level in hit points and remove the unconscious status from the targeted creature. They immediately regain consciousness and may expend their reaction to stand up from the prone position.





Lore will come when I have time. I'll try to get it in before the end of the contest.

Lay on Hands is never really all that much in comparison to full-casting healers, who can toss around stuff like Heal by this level. I think that boosting it to a short rest feature helps keep the paladin workable as a healer in the last tier of the game.
It might be a bit much to both make it short rest and let you grant temp HP as a bonus action, though...

Most paladin capstones are transformations, yes, but Redemption Paladins have an always-on effect, so it's not unprecedented. I also think it makes more sense given that being a monarch isn't the kind of thing you can pick up and put down when you're done.
Command is a first level spell. Wizards can pick a 1st level spell to cast infinitely two levels before this Paladin gets it (and they get to choose that spell, too, plus they get a 2nd level spell as well). I don't think it's broken, particularly for a capstone (which tend to have wacky balance anyway), particularly given that you can't cast it on someone who's made their save.

Fair enough. I withdraw the relevant objections regarding your capstone.

nickl_2000
2019-06-27, 06:08 PM
Hold on a moment, let me get my colored text...


.


Awesome! Thank you!

Segev
2019-06-27, 06:54 PM
Even if it takes up Concentration, infinite charming is a deal-breaker. There is no limit on uses, no limit on how many creatures can be charmed at once, and no limit on how often it can be reapplied to the same target if they break free.

Token of favor apparently perma-charms a creature and they can only break free for one round at a time? And if they manage to get rid of the item enabling them to be perma-charmed they suffer horrendous side effects and can be repeatedly punished regardless of distance? Even without enabling multiple uses of this at 14th level it's broken as hell.

And apparently there's infinite magical communication on top of all that.

Just... no.





Thereís no repeated punishment. The token being discarded or revoked ends it. The Sorceress canít reapply it without tracking him down. And if they donít want the token, they can discard it as a bonus action while not Charmed. The carrot is relatively minor: the bond she bestows is an extra way to get Inspiration. But it is real. And later carrots include benefit of her patronage and spells from afar.

But itís not that hard to get rid of if youíre not besotted or dominated. And while it releases you for a round is more than enough to do so.

Charm isnít all that powerful, by itself, and Beguiling Influence ends if the Sorceress or her allies are harmful.

Youíre right on the reapplication thing, though. Iíll add a clause about not being able to apply it to anybody who has already succumbed or who made their save within the last 24 hours. Or until she long rests, or something.

Crisis21
2019-06-27, 10:01 PM
Thereís no repeated punishment. The token being discarded or revoked ends it. The Sorceress canít reapply it without tracking him down. And if they donít want the token, they can discard it as a bonus action while not Charmed. The carrot is relatively minor: the bond she bestows is an extra way to get Inspiration. But it is real. And later carrots include benefit of her patronage and spells from afar.

But itís not that hard to get rid of if youíre not besotted or dominated. And while it releases you for a round is more than enough to do so.

Charm isnít all that powerful, by itself, and Beguiling Influence ends if the Sorceress or her allies are harmful.

Youíre right on the reapplication thing, though. Iíll add a clause about not being able to apply it to anybody who has already succumbed or who made their save within the last 24 hours. Or until she long rests, or something.

Okay, so the no-distance-limit Psychic damage is a one-off. That's still ridiculous. You're proposing to grant campaign-final-boss type powers to a level 1 Sorcerer PC.

Nicrosil
2019-06-27, 10:32 PM
Warlocks also have this. The standard wording is just "you can cast X without consuming a spell slot."

...oh right.:smallredface:

Just updated with that change, and added some fluff.

Also, feedback! I haven't read through other people's comments, so I may be repeating some stuff here. Take everything I say with a grain of salt!


I like it! It's like the non-charm based parts of a Glamour bard combined with some very nice healing abilities. The capstone being always on is different from most other Oaths, but given that for the most part it just enhances your other, limited use features, I don't have an issue with it. At will command seems scary on paper, but at 20th level, I doubt it'll break anything. My only quibble is on the oath spells; Animate Objects, Awaken, and Tiny Servant feel a bit out of place. No real complaints though; I'd definitely allow this at my table!



Ooh, I'm always a fan of vestiges! Giving it a kind of cleric like flavor is unique too! That being said, this feels more like a pact boon than a patron. Higher level abilities, beyond gaining more followers with your charisma bonus, and some guidance on what the followers can do, how they act in combat, if they act in combat, would be greatly appreciated.



The fact that this is actually effective runs counter to the idea of being middle management. In all seriousness, this looks like a very solid subclass. The domain spells are very flavorful! The capstone is pretty basic, but that's not a bad thing. I'd allow this at my table... with maybe some fluff modifications for more serious campaigns. :smallwink:


In fear of sounding like a broken record, I like the flavor! Charming Song is interesting; at face value, it doesn't seem very powerful, but the fact that there isn't an upper bound on how many creatures can be effected at once, or how long they can be effected, makes me think this can be very powerful in the right circumstances. You don't get any new uses for Bardic Inspiration though, and scaling of your Charming Song uses is a bit weird. You get one use per long rest at 3rd level, two per long rest at 6th (and Song of Rage), and then one per short rest at 14th? Maybe tone down the effects of Charming Song and Song of Rage, and tie it into Bardic Inspiration uses? You would kind of be recreating a 3.5 style bard then, interestingly enough... Either way, I do really like the concept!

More reviews to come soon.

Segev
2019-06-27, 10:45 PM
Okay, so the no-distance-limit Psychic damage is a one-off. That's still ridiculous. You're proposing to grant campaign-final-boss type powers to a level 1 Sorcerer PC.

Level 6, minimum, to give out a token to a single person at a time.

Level 1 is just the Charm effect. Which, again, only prevents attacking her and gives her Advantage on Charisma checks. And, if she or her allies are violent towards those Beguiled or their friends, it breaks.

nickl_2000
2019-06-28, 06:34 AM
The fact that this is actually effective runs counter to the idea of being middle management. In all seriousness, this looks like a very solid subclass. The domain spells are very flavorful! The capstone is pretty basic, but that's not a bad thing. I'd allow this at my table... with maybe some fluff modifications for more serious campaigns. :smallwink:



I know, I did struggle a little with the fact that this subclass would be effective, but you need to be able to do something useful (you aren't a Purple Dragon Knight after all) :smallbiggrin: I do agree with you that you would need a few fluff modifications for something more serious, but the concepts should still work effectively no matter what.





Hold on a moment, let me get my colored text...



Thanks, I took most of them under advisement and used them. I did not use everything in the Employee Empowerment (level 1) ability though. If I were to change it to a help action it would only work on their next turn. I specifically wanted it to last longer than that.

MoleMage
2019-06-30, 06:47 PM
I'd like to second the request for an extension. Just had a lot of work come up in the last month, and haven't been able to review anyone else's fully because of it (as well as neglecting my own).

That's two requests then. One more and I'll put in a two week extension on the contest.

BerzerkerUnit
2019-06-30, 09:30 PM
Then Iíll also request the extension. Coming back to review what others have posted is low priority and there soooo many, I donít want to get to voting without contributing critiques or even really having a grasp on what many do.

Max_Killjoy
2019-06-30, 11:08 PM
In print, we've got the shadow subclass for Monks, and shadow subclass for Sorcerers. UA has a darkness domain for Clerics that is reportedly a bit OP. Rangers have a kinda-shadow subclass.

Has anyone done a shadow-based subclass for Fighters in these homebrews?

Segev
2019-06-30, 11:54 PM
In print, we've got the shadow subclass for Monks, and shadow subclass for Sorcerers. UA has a darkness domain for Clerics that is reportedly a bit OP. Rangers have a kinda-shadow subclass.

Has anyone done a shadow-based subclass for Fighters in these homebrews?

Has there been a subclass contest where that would be fitting? I mean, one might be able to make a "Shadows as minions" fighter subclass, but that seems a stretch to fit two themes rather than a natural growth from Fighter.

THat said, I can't really think of a good "shadow subclass" for Fighter off the top of my head anyway, so it's an interesting challenge in its own right. Hrm.

BerzerkerUnit
2019-07-01, 12:23 AM
Has there been a subclass contest where that would be fitting? I mean, one might be able to make a "Shadows as minions" fighter subclass, but that seems a stretch to fit two themes rather than a natural growth from Fighter.

THat said, I can't really think of a good "shadow subclass" for Fighter off the top of my head anyway, so it's an interesting challenge in its own right. Hrm.

Maybe a Black Knight type figure, along the lines of what Kas the bloody handed would have been?

The sorrows and fears of your foes stain your armor black granting undead type abilities? I created an Accursed Fighter archetype meant to be modular with a regular subclass (if you picked up your curse later or had it broken). you can find it here (https://www.dmsguild.com/product/252609/Dark-Powers-Rising) or here (free version (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RhxunHtp66Ij9zMbPXERqoWa21uoYG6UNNRW4FnTajU/edit?usp=sharing)) if you want some inspiration.

RickAsWritten
2019-07-01, 10:18 AM
I updated the Swift End Monk:
Separated the level 3 ability into two.
Got rid of the auto-Dodge and replaced it with the damage boost suggestion.
Tried to clean up some of the confusing wording but it may need tinkered with a bit more...let me know please.
Swapped some of the Ki costs around as was suggested.
Clarified The End Brought About. It is meant to be a literal "Kickstart My Heart" ability (as a fun aside, the fluff was originally going to be an extreme sports monk with rock and roll ability titles but it wasn't working so I kept the normal monk aesthetic). Several people mentioned that they were worried about the danger of missing, but the healing Ki punch is made at advantage because your ally has fallen unconscious and is thus prone. I kept the original scaling for the healing because of that minor risk and the Ki cost got bumped a bit.


I think you've given yourself a good theme, but not all of your features necessarily fit it. As mentioned, Mark of the Swift End encourages just the opposite, to draw out its defensive benefits. The ki costs also need a touchup. If you decide to update this, let me know and I'll get another review up for the updates.

Thanks for the help. A couple of your suggestions made it into the new version.


Danger at the Fore is awesome

The end brought about is... odd. I like how it fits with the theme, but "you might punch your allies to death" isn't a great effect. The ability to dash around to bring someone back from the brink once per short/long rest is pretty cool all by itself

Thanks yeah, I'm really happy with that one. It has a cool visual and really fits what I want the subclass' role to be. I reordered the level 17. Hopefully that helps.


Follow, With Haste - I dislike the way this seems to penalize allies for rolling higher than you on initiative.

Danger at the Fore - Move the text about usage and recharge to the end of the feature.

The End Brought About - Risky. The penalty for missing makes me want to avoid using this, but the thought of punching someone back to life is amusing.

Thanks. I reordered DatF and see above for TEBA. It has a bit of risk but advantage and a maxed Dex should minimize them. The level 6 doesn't punish anyone for rolling higher. It just doesn't reward them. And they could always hold their action to get the speed boost, thus giving you a better chance of being the first to reach the Marked enemy and getting that accuracy boost for your teammates.

I'll try to get to an analysis of everyone else's this week, but I can't make any promises, holiday weeks can get hectic.

MoleMage
2019-07-01, 11:06 AM
Then Iíll also request the extension. Coming back to review what others have posted is low priority and there soooo many, I donít want to get to voting without contributing critiques or even really having a grasp on what many do.

That's three, so a two week extension is now in effect. New deadline is July 14!

RickAsWritten
2019-07-02, 09:36 AM
A bunch of quick hits for each submission:

I like the spells. I get a Disney/Fantasia vibe from all the animation of objects. Overall I like it. There may be some frustration in-play with two different sources of Temp HP. The Channel Divinity and the Aura are directly competing with each other.

I love the fluff. It's probably not a good suggestion, as it's backwards in regards to game design, but I feel like anyone that passes there save against the Friends cantrip should take like a paltry amount of psychic damage; maybe equal to proficiency. It is the Will of the Middle Manager, the gods, and the very magic of the world that you listen to this greasy little fellow, and to deny that is pain (read., a headache).
I've been playing Borderlands a lot lately and this reads like a mid-level Hyperion worker and a love it. This would make a fantastic low-to-mid game BBEG.

I like the theme, but Charming Song needs work. It should have a hard cap on the number of charmed targets. It's very on theme, but it's like an Enchantment Wizard that can use super Hypnotic Pattern. I would be VERY hesitant to allow a player to use this in a game. It would create way to many headaches for everyone involved. Again, it would make a good low-to-mid game BBEG. The level 14 feature is missing the "At level 14" bit.

I like the modularity but this really steps on the toes of a lot of other classes and subclasses. Chromatic Metamorphosis is cool but once it happens, you no longer have a 14th level ability. Also it promotes suicidal play.

I like Tactical Awareness a lot and I like the sharing of skills to a split party. If Strategic Regrouping occurs during combat does everyone get double walking speed or is travel speed only for non-combat time movement? I like the rest.

Simple, but relatively solid. We are all barbarians now.

I think you can drop "and hit a creature with a melee weapon attack using Strength" from The Lone Wolf Dies. That is already a requirement for Reckless. Top Dog is a cool idea, but if a group is approaching and say half pass the save, when (if ever) do those that failed join combat? The Pack survives is a bit toe-steppy on the Ancestral Guardian.

Not bad. Like a functioning Banneret mixed with a Mastermind Rogue. Simple and effective. We are all fighters now.

Things I like: the ability to add a Bond to a characters background, like a temporary madness; and the reduction of Sorcery Points to keep control over an affect. That's a neat new way to handle the spending and usage of a resource.
Other than that: I don't really like the theme. It feels...I don't know...skeezy?

Simple and effective. The flavor and the mechanics really line-up well. I like it.

Simple and pretty neat. I really like Arcane Instruction and wish it came on-line earlier, but is a good capstone. Solid.

A Beastmaster for humans. I like it. I wish the real Beastmaster could implement some of those training options to their animal companion. Fits the theme and I don't see any real issues. It would suck to have your apprentice die though. And it is weird to put a price on a human being, even in a pretend game.

The Vantage Points are unique and cool. Artful Cover should say "have half cover." Aaaand now we are Incepting people. It's pretty strong but has some drawbacks and challenges built-in. A Thieves' Tool check against someone's brain makes me chuckle.
The subclass feels a little disjointed. It feels like two concepts mashed together. The Vantages are excellent tactically and have a very mundane feel to them, and then you turn into a super psychic. I think it would be better split in two. A whole subclass that gives terrain advantages and stuff like that, and then another that focuses on mind manipulation.

Thanks to everyone that gave me help, and hopefully I added something constructive to the conversation.

Man_Over_Game
2019-07-02, 10:07 AM
Regarding Strategic Regrouping, it only affects travel pace, as in, the travel rules, which are only applicable for long-distance travel. The idea is that you could travel roughly a mile in half the time to reach your friend, who is barely holding on due to the benefits to their saving throws.

BerzerkerUnit
2019-07-02, 12:12 PM
A bunch of quick hits for each submission:

[

The Vantage Points are unique and cool. Artful Cover should say "have half cover." Aaaand now we are Incepting people. It's pretty strong but has some drawbacks and challenges built-in. A Thieves' Tool check against someone's brain makes me chuckle.
The subclass feels a little disjointed. It feels like two concepts mashed together. The Vantages are excellent tactically and have a very mundane feel to them, and then you turn into a super psychic. I think it would be better split in two. A whole subclass that gives terrain advantages and stuff like that, and then another that focuses on mind manipulation. .

Thanks so much for the feedback!

I understand the sense that the two concepts are different, but I think I can refluff the vantage points to make them a little more like a divination effect rather than pure tactics. In modern warfare with heat sensors and lidar/radar theyíd be mundane, but in a fantasy setting theyíd be supernatural

SleeplessWriter
2019-07-02, 02:01 PM
Thanks for the feedback, guys. I just edited a few things, cleaned up the wording on Undaunted Horde and clarified/revised who War Cry effects. I'll work on getting the lore up soon, I'm thinking most of it'll feature an overly bombastic, bare-chested, dwarven barbarian (who is of course wearing a kilt and dual wielding axes).

theVoidWatches
2019-07-02, 04:24 PM
I like the spells. I get a Disney/Fantasia vibe from all the animation of objects. Overall I like it. There may be some frustration in-play with two different sources of Temp HP. The Channel Divinity and the Aura are directly competing with each other.

How are the CD and the Aura competing? They do different things - the CD lets people rally to you (which can bring them into your Aura) or else gives an extra attack/cantrip, while the Aura is a utility effect letting you share skills.

sengmeng
2019-07-02, 05:21 PM
[School of Grey Tactics]I like the modularity but this really steps on the toes of a lot of other classes and subclasses. Chromatic Metamorphosis is cool but once it happens, you no longer have a 14th level ability. Also it promotes suicidal play.

I'm a bit confused at this interpretation; "You no longer have a 14th level ability" implies that you missed its benefits afterwards, but "it promotes suicidal play" implies that you are encouraged to use it by those very same benefits. It's more thematic than anything, so I'm definitely not dropping it, but I guess it is a bit confusing and I'd welcome any suggestions to the wording.

BerzerkerUnit
2019-07-02, 06:55 PM
Forgive me if any of my critiques retread insights better stated by others.

Oath of Royalty
Not bad. I think it's gotten a lot of attention already being the first posted.

Vestige Disciple
When will we see more of Vestige Patron? I love minion classes.

At a glance I think you'd get more mileage out of using the default NPCs and monsters and some light math. Like NPC CR's equal to 1/2. Creatures with a CR of 0 are treated as 1/8.

The cap on ability scores really limits who you can bring with you.

So you start with total CR equal to 1/2 your class level. So you could bring some commoners or guards. If they die they can be brought back via normal means or additional adherents will arrive within 7 days. If you wish to recruit a new adherent you must dismiss a number equal to the CR value of the new recruit.

This way when you're high level you can have a couple of gladiators or a mind flayer and a bunch of thralls.

You might use the later levels to expand the Patrons reach, so at level 6 your patron might also appeal to monstrosities or Elemental beings and at level 10 you can recruit from fey or fiends and level 14 might be celestials or aberrations. These special adherents might require contracts/pacts/you might have to meet them in play, and you always have to bring them back with magic.

However you choose to expand it, I'm eager to see more going forward, good luck!

College of Pied Piper
I like the theme of this college but something about the implementation is bothering me. Depending on the situation the Charming Song either pauses a combat or outright ends one. As a daily ability it isn't bad but I'm not sure how to change it. I'm okay with unlimited duration, but I would think a Con + Perform or Tool Use check per hour to maintain would be appropriate baked in.

The Song of Rage... I see the goal but handing everyone a key class feature (that may actually be a huge nerf if they're a caster) doesn't seem ideal. Something that makes targets reliably attack each other, more like the Scarlet Witch in Age of Ultron if you need a reference point. They get to make the save if they're damaged like normal but it wastes their turns at the least. The duration is too long.

Pie the Piper seems fine.

Swift End Monk, apologies for this one. I'm not against the general concept but I opted to take my own pass at it for comparison's sake.

Mark of a Swift End. I love marking techniques, I think if this were more like "On a hit you can spend a Ki point to mark a foe for swift end. An ally of your choosing that hits the target before the beginning of your next turn gains a bonus to damage rolls equal to your Proficiency bonus and attacks are criticals on 19-20." or something. This brings it more in line with Hexblade curse and expands its value as you go up in level as a fellow combatant will have more attacks and your bonus increases. Maybe add a bit where you can spend more Ki at higher tiers for more allies to share the benefit.

Follow, I'm not sure I like how this interacts with initiative. I might swap it to "When you spend a Ki point to dash, allies within 30 feet may also use their reaction to dash."

Danger at the Fore. Add a bit about how the association with death brings a limited prescience concerning your own. I really like this as a concept, traps are unloved IMO, but it's very niche. I might set it up as follows.
When you trigger a trap you are unaware of but have not yet suffered the effect or are surprised, you can spend 3 Ki points to have foreseen the trap or ambush a split second ahead of time. The trap remains untriggered or You are not surprised and can act normally.

The End brought about. I would describe this as Cute. I don't like abilities that gamble with other character's lives. I think an awesome spin might be "move adjacent to fallen ally and tick a failed death save for yourself. Your ally gets HP equal to 3x your Monk Level. The next time you are reduced to 0 hp you have already failed that death save. All of the failed death saves accrued in this way are removed after a long rest.

Marshal Ranger
Without knowing whether you're going off revised or book ranger I can't rightly comment on this one.

Savage Leader

Reminds me of this (https://www.dmsguild.com/product/209789/Barbarian-Path-Hordemaster?term=hordemaster+bar). Overall not bad. I might make Undaunted Horde a little less fiddly. One static effect that's readily applied to allies, right now it feels like a laundry list of stuff for them to keep track of.

Reckless Frenzy might be better represented as a pool of attacks, similar to Commander's Strike maneuver... When you use the Reckless attack feature while raging you can use a bonus action to direct an ally to use their reaction to make a melee attack. They have advantage on this attack. You can do this a number of times equal to your Con modifier. You regain all uses of this ability the next time you begin raging. That way you keep track of it instead of other players.

War Cry is great. I'd switch it to 30 feet and make it once a day.


War Chief
Feature 1:
Beginning at 1st level, the primal power radiating from your form can deter lesser foes from challenging you. You gain proficiency in the Intimidation Skill, if already proficient you double proficiency bonus unless you already have a similar feature. When you roll initiative, enemies within 30 feet with Initiative checks lower than your passive Intimidation are Frightened. Frightened creatures can roll a wisdom saving throw at the end of their turn to end this effect. Creatures with a CR greater than your Barbarian level are immune to this ability.

I love The Pack Survives since it synergizes with Reckless attack so well.

War Howl seems ok as is. Good work.

Warlord
I've been frustrated by the call for this archetype for a while as I don't think it's necessary. That said, this is seriously good. Like, I immediately cut pasted it as is into my "character options" folder for my homebrew campaign. Full marks.

Fair One Sorcerer
I think this has gotten a lot of attention already, I doubt I'll be adding anything.

I'll try and hit some more later.

Segev
2019-07-02, 10:35 PM
Thanks for the feedback. It...well, it's a mind-control, Charm-based subclass; feeling "skeevy" is not inappropriate. It CAN be played as a beloved princess archetype, but doing so will take adhering to the fluff you want very carefully. Everybody loves you and you act in a way that suggests it's deserved. The psychic damage is not you being cruel and covetous, but their own guilt at betraying you. It can be done non-skeevy, but it takes serious work, as is typical of any "people like me" build.