D&D 5e Subclass Contest Chat Thread

[RickAsWritten]

Swift End Monk, apologies for this one. I'm not against the general concept but I opted to take my own pass at it for comparison's sake.

Mark of a Swift End. I love marking techniques, I think if this were more like "On a hit you can spend a Ki point to mark a foe for swift end. An ally of your choosing that hits the target before the beginning of your next turn gains a bonus to damage rolls equal to your Proficiency bonus and attacks are criticals on 19-20." or something. This brings it more in line with Hexblade curse and expands its value as you go up in level as a fellow combatant will have more attacks and your bonus increases. Maybe add a bit where you can spend more Ki at higher tiers for more allies to share the benefit.

Follow, I'm not sure I like how this interacts with initiative. I might swap it to "When you spend a Ki point to dash, allies within 30 feet may also use their reaction to dash."

Danger at the Fore. Add a bit about how the association with death brings a limited prescience concerning your own. I really like this as a concept, traps are unloved IMO, but it's very niche. I might set it up as follows.
When you trigger a trap you are unaware of but have not yet suffered the effect or are surprised, you can spend 3 Ki points to have foreseen the trap or ambush a split second ahead of time. The trap remains untriggered or You are not surprised and can act normally.

The End brought about. I would describe this as Cute. I don't like abilities that gamble with other character's lives. I think an awesome spin might be "move adjacent to fallen ally and tick a failed death save for yourself. Your ally gets HP equal to 3x your Monk Level. The next time you are reduced to 0 hp you have already failed that death save. All of the failed death saves accrued in this way are removed after a long rest.

No need to apologize at all. I really like all of those suggestions.

For the Mark, I really want the ability to promote everyone rushing-in to wail on one monster. I'm not sure your suggestion would help with that.

That might be a better option for the level 6 ability. I'm still not happy with that one.

For Danger at the Fore, I prefer the current iteration. The prescience bit is cool, but I like the visual of holding off a rock slide with a projection of your Ki. It's niche, but I didn't want everything to be a combat ability. Plus I've seen some devastating traps in the WotC published works (insta-kills and the like) so while it's niche it's also impactful.

For The End Brought About, I played around with something like that; teleport them out of harms way and heal 'em. I may mess around with that one. I really like the accrued Death Saves idea.

[BerzerkerUnit]

What if danger at the fore were dodging backward through time? It still protects the entire party by not triggering the trap.

[Man_Over_Game]

@BerzerkerUnit
The Marshal is based on the standard Ranger. The Revised Ranger doesn't have many of the features that the Marshal references and modifies to make it compatible.

[Rawrawrawr]

Woot woot, first entry in a subclass contest!

The Demagogue, a domain for the Cleric, is up.

[BerzerkerUnit]

revamped the Invader Rogue to the Rogue Tacticon (Tactical Recon).

[nickl_2000]

Woot woot, first entry in a subclass contest!

The Demagogue, a domain for the Cleric, is up.

Welcome to the party. I will try and take a look tomorrow

[nickl_2000]

Woot woot, first entry in a subclass contest!

The Demagogue, a domain for the Cleric, is up.



Cleric Domain: Demagogue

Orator - I like the re-write of the College of Glamour ability here, and I like that you modified it enough to make it a different ability. You do need to mention what the creature is making a saving throw against (usually against your spell DC). I would steal the last sentence directly from the Glamour Bard.

"This effect ends on a target after 10 minutes, if it takes any damage, if you attack it, or if it witnesses you attacking or damaging any of its allies."


Powers of Personality - This feels like a little much to me. The Knowledge Cleric gets expertise in 2 skills, but it doesn't get another level 1 ability. Also, the Knowledge Cleric focuses on Arcana, History, Nature, and Religion which tend to be lesser used skills than your social skills you have in this ability. I'm not against it, but I would look to lower the power of this ability. Either 1 Prof/Expertise or 1 proficiency and 1 expertise.

Holy Fervor - What happens if you use this ability on someone who is currently charmed/frightened? Does it suppress it for a round? Does it end it? It does feel like a little much to give everything. I think if you remove the double movement speed or charmed/frightened, it would be more balanced.

Fanatical Devotion - You need to mention what they are saving against. Even for a capstone this needs limited some.
1) You need to limit this to only one person at a time (outside of the psychic rider, that seems rare enough). Considering that as written you could literally take over an entire town in a day without any effort, there is a problem.
2) If someone doesn't have protection from evil and good, they get no save? That is a bit broken. I would do it so that everyone gets a save, but protection gives them advantage on the save.


I like the evil leader here, and this would make an excellent evil character or BBEG. There is a lot of really good abilities, and I like that it isn't all combat focused. You do need to look at the overall balance though.

[Vogie]

Updated Aggrogate

Coordinated Attack now costs half the sneak attack dice, rounded down.

The Augury Effect is now available once per short/long rest, similar to AG Barb's Consult the Spirits feature.

Conspire is now an Aid variant, increases current & max hp by 5+Int, so it doesn't step on the toes of the IL feat.

Focus fire just increases the ally attack by 2d6.

[RickAsWritten]

Updated the Swift Monk's level 6 ability:

Follow, Swiftened

Starting at 6th level, you hearten and lend speed to your allies. Whenever you use your Step of the Wind ability you can grant a speed bonus to allies that you can see within 30 feet. The chosen individuals gain additional movement equal to half of your Unarmored Movement bonus (rounded up to the nearest 5 feet). The speed boost lasts for one minute, and any ally that is granted the speed bonus has advantage on saving throws to avoid the frightened condition. You may grant this bonus to a number of allies equal to your Wisdom modifier, and must finish a Short Rest before you can use this ability again.

[Nicrosil]

Reviews Part The Second

I really like the Battle Secrets! There's enough there that you could make two or three characters that all feel different. That being said though, it feels a bit... much. By 10th level, you have Extra Attack, effectively a better version of an Eldritch Knight's capstone, the ability to use Int for your weapon attacks, and Int based unarmored defense... Also, does Arcane Inspiration use the same rules as Bardic Inspiration? I might be missing something, but right now, it just looks like fuel for Heart Ward. The 14th level ability feels... weird. I guess my main hangup is that the main feature, the resurrection, is one time only.

I really like this! It feels like an adrenaline junkie, monk style. I feel like Marked for a Swift End could use some rewording, and maybe a buff as well? Right now, at 3rd level, it's just +1 to attack/damage for one creature against one other creature... Maybe "When you roll initiative, you mark one creature and spend X Ki points. Melee attacks against the marked creature gain a bonus to attack rolls and damage equal to the Ki spent. The mark lasts for 1 minute, or until the target dies. (scaling info here)." Also, you could maybe increase the amount of Ki you can spend at a time, or have the bonus scale with your Martial Arts die somehow? A +3 capstone feels a bit weak IMO. The 6th and 11th level features feel fine, though you may want to clarify what exactly a trap is for the 11th level ability. Maybe just make it any Dex saves, like the Barbarian's Danger Sense? And while I love the idea of punching your ally back to life, the 2 failed death saves on a miss feels a bit out of place. You're level 17 at this point, there are a lot of other, less risky options when it comes to healing, you know?


Interesting! I like how you turned what's normally a ribbon feature into the main focus of the subclass! The mile radius and the hour long duration and the unlimited number of allies that can be effected by this feels a bit much though. As does the 'if one person's proficient everyone's proficient' third level feature. I have similar qualms about the 7th level feature; the bonus to travel pace is fine, but granting proficiency in all saving throws makes me do a double take. No problem with Flanking Tactics, but I think the 11th level feature might be underpowered. Most Ranger subclasses get a pseudo-extra attack at this level; maybe you could targeting a creature with Flanking Tactics a bonus action here? No problem with the 14th level feature either.


Solid flavor and solid mechanics! I'm always a fan of Barbarians, and I'd definitely play this given the chance. My only quibble is that the 14th level feature gives you another pool to keep track of, which I feel is unusual for Barbarians, but there's not really a better way to do it I think.

Again, no problems here! I may have a soft spot for Barbarians :smallredface:. You can probably trim down the third level feature, since you can only use Reckless Attack on melee, strength based attacks anyway. I think the wording on the 6th level feature is probably fine? If you wanted to, you could probably replace it with something like a dragon's Frightening Presence ability; it's not a perfect replacement, but still. You could even give proficiency/expertise in intimidation and say you can use intimidation instead of persuasion when trying to avoid combat. All in all though, I'm a fan!

More to come soon.

[MoleMage]

Just a heads up, I made an error when I added the extension. It should have been two weeks and I only added one extra week. I've fixed this in the first post of this and in the contest thread, the last day of the contest should be the 21st as now indicated.

[Phhase]

I felt a bit of edge going into this, so I made a really hack-n-slashy druid circle that steps on Barbarian's toes a bit. I have the distinct feeling it is either keenly over or underpowered. Thoughts?

In other news, I really like how Arrogate's Pre-Mortem expressly rewards getting your heads together and plotting out the battle/heist beforehand (a favorite of mine).

Does Fair one adhere to archetype templates for sorcerer? It's good, but don't let That Guy get his or her grubby hands on them...

College of Professors is short and sweet. Makes perfect sense to me, has good flavor.

Demagogue is hilarious because of the kind of character you have to play - I am a cleric of ME, 'cos I'M A GOD!

[Segev]

I felt a bit of edge going into this, so I made a really hack-n-slashy druid circle that steps on Barbarian's toes a bit. I have the distinct feeling it is either keenly over or underpowered. Thoughts?My biggest concern when reading through it was that it seemed more focused on being a beat-em-up, and the "follow me" theme felt kind-of tacked on. That's rather true of a lot of them, though, in my opinion.

I think one way to work with it (unless I missed it in your build) would be to give them a class feature that lets them be a pack leader by sharing Wild Shape with allies. When they use it on themselves, a number of willing allies either touching or in close range should be able to transform with them, and operate on the Druid's Concentration. I'd probably put this at their second or third perk-level. (I forget where druid subclass levels come in.)


Does Fair one adhere to archetype templates for sorcerer? It's good, but don't let That Guy get his or her grubby hands on them...It has its powers come in at the same level as other Sorcerer subclasses. Ironically, it's meant to simulate the object of courtly love, but yes, it definitely can go darkly creepy fast.

[Phhase]

My biggest concern when reading through it was that it seemed more focused on being a beat-em-up, and the "follow me" theme felt kind-of tacked on. That's rather true of a lot of them, though, in my opinion.

I think one way to work with it (unless I missed it in your build) would be to give them a class feature that lets them be a pack leader by sharing Wild Shape with allies. When they use it on themselves, a number of willing allies either touching or in close range should be able to transform with them, and operate on the Druid's Concentration. I'd probably put this at their second or third perk-level. (I forget where druid subclass levels come in.)


I was kind of thinking the same thing about follow-me being tacked on at first, but I kind of felt like the way the healing mechanic works and the tracking and the whole bleed-necromorph thing, the subclass kind of falls into a leadership role organically rather than through any "HEY BY THE WAY I'M A LEADER-TYPE" explicit mechanic. Like, you follow the guy who tracks the enemies, you want to attack the the guy who's blood you can drink to stay alive, you want to stack bleed to exsanguinate as quickly as possible etc. Also, since there are big AoE downsides to Bloodfury, your teammates have to work around your battle agenda (get you spellcasting out of the way quick!).

Of course, this absolutely would be clearer if I could test it, but yanno. Obviously this subclass would work better in some party comps as opposed to others.

I thought about the AoE Wild Shape thing, but, like, would anyone WANT that? For other classes, a wild shape at most levels might be weaker than their normal form. That's part of why I made Bloodfury workable in or our of Wild Shape for the druid. Perhaps if I made the snuggle zone for haste a bit smaller, that would get others to follow you more closely.

[Segev]

What group wild shape would allow is utility, mostly. It would be a level 6+ thing, thus, since the druid doesn't get flying and water-breathing forms until about then, IIRC.

If you REALLY want to beef it up, you could give it half Moon Druid progression to allowable CRs on wild shape, too, but that might honestly be too much.

The "gentle encouragement" style of "do what I am making the path of least resistance" is nifty, though.

[Phhase]

Yeah, it's mostly supposed to be a spiritual Wild Shape, at least until 14th level. Anyone else have pointers or opinions on my entry?

[MoleMage]

At this point, I think I need to admit defeat. I never came up with a satisfying creation for this contest. Don't worry though, we still have a stellar 17 entries, and I should be back on the metaphorical horse next contest. Just under a week left to get your edits in, everyone feeling good?

[Segev]

At this point, I think I need to admit defeat. I never came up with a satisfying creation for this contest. Don't worry though, we still have a stellar 17 entries, and I should be back on the metaphorical horse next contest. Just under a week left to get your edits in, everyone feeling good?

I should probably add some lore or something, though that fluff is often stuff I ignore because it rarely actually even accurately portrays what the class is, instead telling you what the designer thinks sounds cool and is related. Or maybe I'm just cynical about mechanics needing to speak for themselves; I acknowledge it is useful to at least have a blurb saying what you're expected to expect to be playing with a particular subclass.

[Phhase]

At this point, I think I need to admit defeat. I never came up with a satisfying creation for this contest. Don't worry though, we still have a stellar 17 entries, and I should be back on the metaphorical horse next contest. Just under a week left to get your edits in, everyone feeling good?

Hey don't count yourself out yet. I made mine in about an hour, and I think it's ok. You've got time. Who's judging by the way?

Also, any pointers on Circle of Blood?

[RickAsWritten]

Updated the the Way of the Swift End.

Buffed Marked for a Swift End a bit.
Included a clause about saving throws in Danger at the Fore.
Got rid of the universally disliked 2 failed death saves and replaced it with the self-accrued death saving throw. There's probably a better way to phrase that sentence, so if anyone has any suggestions I'd welcome them.

Monk - Way of the Swift End - Revised (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=23954811&postcount=7)

[SleeplessWriter]

The Circle of Blood looks pretty interesting, and I do like where you're going with it, but at this point it seems like a lot to keep track of all at once, especially at later levels. You really have to keep track of a lot of attacks with both Primal Fury and Lacerator.
I'm also a little wary of the drawback on Bloodfury at 6 Primal Fury, I'd make it so your allies can choose whether they want all your benefits at the cost of the drawback, that way your spellcaster allies don't get cross with being unable to do their job. Wouldn't want to lose all your best stuff just because your ally is buffing everything you don't use.


Also, on a side note, I'd like to add another possibility to the contest pool: It's Mind! Subclasses based on mental abilities. Whether it's Inception style rogues, psionic monks, or warlocks who've made a deal with their own nightmares to inflict them on other people is entirely up to you.

[MoleMage]

Hey don't count yourself out yet. I made mine in about an hour, and I think it's ok. You've got time. Who's judging by the way?

Also, any pointers on Circle of Blood?

I'm not sure if the "Who's judging" question is a rhetorical for "don't feel bad about missing your submission" or a legitimate question about format, so I'll answer the latter just in case. There aren't judges; instead the contest will go to an open vote for two weeks the day after the deadline. I'll post a link to the voting thread here and in the submission thread, and the rules for voting will be included in the voting thread. Participants are encouraged to vote (whether you voted is the first tie-breaker), but anyone is welcome to.

It looks like it's in an okay place balance wise, but like SleeplessWriter mentions, it's got a lot to track. I will also note that DR X/type doesn't really exist as a format in 5e. You'd have to spell it out ("you reduce all damage taken, other than psychic damage, by 3").


The Circle of Blood looks pretty interesting, and I do like where you're going with it, but at this point it seems like a lot to keep track of all at once, especially at later levels. You really have to keep track of a lot of attacks with both Primal Fury and Lacerator.
I'm also a little wary of the drawback on Bloodfury at 6 Primal Fury, I'd make it so your allies can choose whether they want all your benefits at the cost of the drawback, that way your spellcaster allies don't get cross with being unable to do their job. Wouldn't want to lose all your best stuff just because your ally is buffing everything you don't use.


Also, on a side note, I'd like to add another possibility to the contest pool: It's Mind! Subclasses based on mental abilities. Whether it's Inception style rogues, psionic monks, or warlocks who've made a deal with their own nightmares to inflict them on other people is entirely up to you.

It's Mind! has been added to the future contest ideas pool.

[Phhase]

I'm not sure if the "Who's judging" question is a rhetorical for "don't feel bad about missing your submission" or a legitimate question about format, so I'll answer the latter just in case. There aren't judges; instead the contest will go to an open vote for two weeks the day after the deadline. I'll post a link to the voting thread here and in the submission thread, and the rules for voting will be included in the voting thread. Participants are encouraged to vote (whether you voted is the first tie-breaker), but anyone is welcome to.

It looks like it's in an okay place balance wise, but like SleeplessWriter mentions, it's got a lot to track. I will also note that DR X/type doesn't really exist as a format in 5e. You'd have to spell it out ("you reduce all damage taken, other than psychic damage, by 3").


It was intended as a legitimate format question, but I'll absolutely expand its scope to also encompass your interpretation! Thanks, by the way.

It's true, it's a bit fiddly. I'll do a bit of formatting and see where it is then.

SleeplessWriter:
"I'm also a little wary of the drawback on Bloodfury at 6 Primal Fury, I'd make it so your allies can choose whether they want all your benefits at the cost of the drawback, that way your spellcaster allies don't get cross with being unable to do their job. Wouldn't want to lose all your best stuff just because your ally is buffing everything you don't use"

Being sort of the centerpiece of the party that you have to build around is sort of the point of this subclass, hence it being the de facto leader, as per theme. The idea is that if you want to cast in a Circle of Blood party, A, you play tactically around the aura, B., you get War Caster and cross your fingers, or C., you build so that you can get your casting out of the way in the first few rounds (there is a guaranteed grace period before it becomes hard to cast, not even considering the Druid missing attacks) and then entering the fray yourself. That said, I did kinda just eyeball the aura size, so it might stand to be a BIT smaller, especially since it's supposed to encourage focus fire tactics.

Come to think of it, mind blank would probably prevent one from being affected by the aura.

Also, I've just realized, Circle of Blood has INSANE synergy with Monk, like, Flurry of Blows, oh god oh man. You could stack up Primal Fury REALLY fast. Enemies would bleed out like water balloons. Whoo boy.

I'll definitely look to clean up some of the area stuff though.

Also, how does one properly get multiple quotes?

[Rawrawrawr]

Welcome to the party. I will try and take a look tomorrow

Thanks for the review!




Cleric Domain: Demagogue

Orator - I like the re-write of the College of Glamour ability here, and I like that you modified it enough to make it a different ability. You do need to mention what the creature is making a saving throw against (usually against your spell DC). I would steal the last sentence directly from the Glamour Bard.

"This effect ends on a target after 10 minutes, if it takes any damage, if you attack it, or if it witnesses you attacking or damaging any of its allies."

Funnily enough, I completely forgot about the College of Glamour, and actually based it on the College of Whispers level 3 feature :P But that wording is pretty clean, so I grabbed it.



Powers of Personality - This feels like a little much to me. The Knowledge Cleric gets expertise in 2 skills, but it doesn't get another level 1 ability. Also, the Knowledge Cleric focuses on Arcana, History, Nature, and Religion which tend to be lesser used skills than your social skills you have in this ability. I'm not against it, but I would look to lower the power of this ability. Either 1 Prof/Expertise or 1 proficiency and 1 expertise.

Yeah, looking back, giving the ability to get advantage on Charisma checks easily by charming people with expertise in Charisma skills is a bit much, on top of the fact that this is almost strictly better than Lore Cleric 1. I knocked it down to just proficiencies.



Holy Fervor - What happens if you use this ability on someone who is currently charmed/frightened? Does it suppress it for a round? Does it end it? It does feel like a little much to give everything. I think if you remove the double movement speed or charmed/frightened, it would be more balanced.

I see your point on the wording - I changed it to match the Berserker Barbarian 6 feature. I see your point on it giving a lot, but given the fact that it's an action (meaning you're sacrificing an attack or spell, at least), that it's only 1 round, and that it's pretty much the only combat-oriented feature this subclass gets, I think I'll leave it as is for now.



Fanatical Devotion - You need to mention what they are saving against. Even for a capstone this needs limited some.
1) You need to limit this to only one person at a time (outside of the psychic rider, that seems rare enough). Considering that as written you could literally take over an entire town in a day without any effort, there is a problem.
2) If someone doesn't have protection from evil and good, they get no save? That is a bit broken. I would do it so that everyone gets a save, but protection gives them advantage on the save.

1) Again, I see your point, but this is 1: supposed to be not just a major feature, but a *shiny new tier* feature - it's also not the only norm-breaking cleric 17 feature - for example, the Forge Cleric 17 is pretty much the only way to gain perma-immunity to a damage type, Light Cleric 17 gives easily accessed disadvantage on saving throws, etc., and more importantly, 2: starting a cult is supposed to be what this entire subclass is about :P So to me, being able to control multiple people is a pretty important cornerstone of the class (which I did try to limit by basically limiting it to cannon fodder).
2) For an ability that can affect many people who are, by virtue of CR, almost guaranteed to be unimportant background NPCs, I feel like giving too many saving throws grinds the game to halt too much. I did modify it so that they need to be charmed, so it's a little more difficult to set up.


And now, for my own reviews, which should be finished tomorrow (sorry if they came a bit late in the competition):


Channel Divinity: A choice of two simple and effective options: a more offensive one, and a more... retreat-y? one. I like it.
Aura of Leadership: Interesting. Paladins don't gain any extra skills, so this feels like it might be a bit limited (especially compared to the powerful auras of other oaths at this level). Still, cool to see a non-combat oriented aura.
King's Touch: Very powerful. Still, compared to say, OotA 7, this doesn't seem overpowered for a Paladin's Oath.
Divine Right: Some of these bonuses feel a little small and fiddly, which 5e tries to get away from. I'd try to condense this into 2 or 3 more powerful bullet points.
Overall: It's got slightly weird power curve compared to other Paladin Oaths, who normally get their most powerful feature at 7, so it worries me a little bit that someone taking this subclass has to wait until 15 to get their most powerful ability. That said, while the power curve's a little weird, it doesn't seem overpowered, so it's probably fine.



Reaching Out and Employee Empowerment: These seem like a revamped Light domain 1 (free cantrip, free advantage instead of disadvantage). Fits the theme, and seems okay.
Increasing your bandwidth: Action Surge+. I'm... not a fan of that. As a Fighter 2nd feature, that implies it's a powerful, tentpole feature for the Fighter (getting a second use is literally considered powerful enough to be the ability for the Fighter's entrance into the last tier), so it seems too powerful to include in a subclass as-is. Plus, whereas a Fighter has a hard time doing the most abusive things with a free action, it's easy for you to give it to, say, the Wizard and let them cast an 8th and 9th level spell in the same turn. And as a final twist of the knife, the Cleric gets three uses of this ability by 18, while the Fighter literally just got their second use a level ago.
Overall, I'd say this is overpowered - there should be limitations on what the extra action can do, a la Haste or something.
You are mission critical: This is also feels overtuned. Short rest healing is powerful, off-action healing is powerful (just look at how valuable people consider Healing Word and Mass Healing Word, and those prevent you from casting a spell as an action, and also only heal 1d4 + Wis), and it's a lot of hit points. You're arguably as good as healing as Life Cleric until level 17, and their entire schtick is healing. To keep the "save a person from 0" ability, I'd cut down on it's uses somehow (like limited times per day instead of a Channel Divinity, or once per person, or something), and cut back the healing significantly.
Promotion: In the opposite vein, this seems like it could be buffed :P This is nifty, but Cleric 17 features are usually pretty big.
Overall: I really like the theme, and I think it's a nice addition to the contest, but I just think it needs to be toned down a bit.



Bonus Proficiencies and Charming Song: So, most Bards get two features at level 3, and this subclass only really gets one - the Bonus Proficiencies are more of a ribbon. Most bards also get another use for Bardic Inspiration at 3, so another 3 feature using Inspiration would be work nicely. Also, Colleges usually give something that can be used more often that 1/long rest, so my suggestion would be to fiddle with Charming Song until it could be 1/short rest.
Musical Expertise and Song of Rage: Musical expertise is a neat ribbon. I'm iffy about Song of Rage using the same source as Charming Song. Glamour and Whisper Bards get abilities that require a rest recharge at this level too, but they gain their own uses separate to that of their 3 features. I'd just let Song of Rage have it's own 1 or 2/long rest recharge.
Pie the Piper: It's a powerful and cool ability that ties into your previous ribbons. I like it.
Overall: The pied piper theme is a really cool idea that fits the Bard and the contest really well. That said, I think this subclass needs more uses of its abilities. Until level 14, it feels like you use its abilities once or twice, and then you basically don't have a subclass until the next day.



Rallying Spell: Simple, to the point. A nice ability.
Battle Secrets: That is a lot of options - probably a few too many for a subclass, and a few of them overlap (e.g., add proficiency to Initiative, and use Intelligence for Initiative, or use any weapon as a focus, and use the quarterstaff as a focus with a slight increase to damage). They're also all pretty major abilities, so it seems like overkill to get so many, in addition to other features. Compare that to, say, the Battle Master, which gets a lot of major options, but the entire subclass is basically geared around those options, without gaining too many other abilities. Or most other gish subclasses, which get Extra Attack at 6th, and not much else, while you can get that and a bunch of the Bard.
Arcane Inspiration: I'd reiterate what an inspiration die is, exactly, or at least refer people to the Bard. Also, you can do this more times per day than a Bard, and this is supposed to be a class-defining feature for the Bard. On top of that, you can essentially give them an Inspiration Die and an Aid Another at the same time, which is more than the Bard can do. And you get another Battle Secret on top of that. I'd definitely recommend trimming this back a bit.
Greater Inspiration: Two more Battle Secrets is a lot, especially with an improvement on the Inspiration Die.
Chromatic Metamorphosis: The first part kinda sends you into a death spiral - if you're already hitting 0 hit points, the fight's probably not going so well - which would be the exact worst time to lose all your spells. I think you can remove that part, and it'd still be fine. Other than that, this is nifty - it's dripping with flavor, but it's not too powerful, so getting an extra Battle Secret on top of that doesn't feel like overkill.
Overall: This subclass feels like it's being pulled in too many directions - it has many Battle Secrets, and two separate buffs that you can use when you cast a spell on an ally, and a capstone that doesn't really fit into either. You also gain a lot of features. I'd trim the subclass to focus on one or two things, and cut back on what you get.



First to the Fray and Marked for a Swift End: I like it. First to the Fray mixes well with your Marked for a Swift End. The bonuses to attack rolls get pretty big, but then again, you're spending a lot of ki to do that to one creature, so it seems okay.
Follow, Swiftened: A good mobility boost to follow up your mark. It's a neat ability that mixes well with your other abilities.
Danger at the Fore: This is niche, and is 1/long rests, and costs 3 ki. I feel like at least one of those limitations can go. This is also a bit underwhelming for a Monk's major "enter a new tier" ability, compared to say, at-will invisibility or constant sanctuary. On the other hand, the bonus to attack rolls from your mark can get pretty significant at this level, so it might be okay.
The End Brought About: This is really complicated, and it feels like it doesn't have to be, but other than that it seems fine. It does feel a little out of tone with the rest of the class (this is a defensive feature that involves retreating, while the rest of the subclass is very offensive and focuses on advancing), but that's not a dealbreaker.
Overall: The first couple of features are really simple and combo well, which I like. The later features get very niche and complicated, which I like less. Overall though, I like how different parts synergize, which makes this subclass feel like more than the sum of its parts.



Tactical Awareness: A cool way to use primeval awareness. I like it.
Flanking Tactics: This feels pretty unique, yet effective.
Strategic Regrouping: Proficiency in all saving throws for 10 minutes is really strong, but it's 1/long rest, so it's probably fine? Maybe cut it down to 1 minute?
Stalker Veteran: I like sharing Hide in Plain Sight, but figuring out how to adjudicate knowing the location of many creatures in 1 mile seems... complicated.
Marshal's Command: So does this mean you can give your allies Hunter's Mark? I feel like the exact interaction could be elaborated on.
Overall: It's a cool use of an underused Ranger ability, with some unique-feeling features.

[Phhase]

Added a little formatting to Circle of Blood. Voting soon?

[Nicrosil]

Oh shoot, last minute feedback!


It's like a Bannerette, done right! I like that you get more features of Second Wind and Indomitable, so you're free to use them to help your allies, which is the main problem with the Bannerette, IMO.


Very interesting! Like the Pied Piper College, I feel like in the hands of a creative player and a permissive DM, this can easily break the game. That being said, without being cheesy, this looks like a lot of fun. I especially like that you get a do-over for botched roleplay by spending a sorcery point.


I like this a lot! Especially the 9th level feature; I love giving martial characters divination style abilities. I would definitely play one of these!


Very nice! It's like a Beastmaster, but revamped! I would maybe cut Timid and make the Bravery Advanced Training give them advantage on charm/fear saves while in sight of you, though. Other than that, no complaints!


I really like this! Vantage points are a really unique and flavorful, and again, I always love giving martial characters divination spells.


You've weaponized monologuing! This is simultaneously hilarious and terrifying. I love it!


Interesting flavor! The 2nd level ability could use some work though; a lot of those spells are already on the druid list, and a lot of them are third level. Magic Fang and Greater Magic Fang don't even exist in 5th edition, nor does the Carcass Eater. The Primal Fury points are very interesting, as is the bleed effect, though you could probably introduce them earlier on, and spread out the abilities more.


Very nice! The wording on Commanding Strike is a bit weird, but no real complaints! I would definitely play one given the chance!

[Phhase]

Oh shoot, last minute feedback!

Interesting flavor! The 2nd level ability could use some work though; a lot of those spells are already on the druid list, and a lot of them are third level. Magic Fang and Greater Magic Fang don't even exist in 5th edition, nor does the Carcass Eater. The Primal Fury points are very interesting, as is the bleed effect, though you could probably introduce them earlier on, and spread out the abilities more.[/SPOILER]


Thanks for your kind help!

I know they aren't 5e spells or monsters, but I guess I'm just suggesting adapting them for this class. They fit IMO. For the 2nd level ability, I'm just trying to facilitate the hunting party feel without having to spend spellslots or extra time. Though you're surely right, it's a little backloaded. I think I will flatten the power curve a little.

[MoleMage]

Added a little formatting to Circle of Blood. Voting soon?

Voting thread goes up tomorrow morning. Today is the last day for edits.

[MoleMage]

Voting thread is up!

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?593342-D-amp-D-Subclass-Contest-IX-Voting-Thread&p=24045977#post24045977

Remember, voting is the first tiebreaker in the event of a tie. Make sure to vote so you don't lose out on a close race in the end!

[nickl_2000]

Voting thread is up!

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?593342-D-amp-D-Subclass-Contest-IX-Voting-Thread&p=24045977#post24045977

Remember, voting is the first tiebreaker in the event of a tie. Make sure to vote so you don't lose out on a close race in the end!

Cool, I will get my vote in next week when I am back in town.

[Nicrosil]

Out of curiosity, are Pact Boons considered subclasses?

[MoleMage]

Out of curiosity, are Pact Boons considered subclasses?

Not for the purposes of this contest. Pact Boons are as big a part of warlock class choice as Patron, but they don't have a standard progression. Several Patron submissions have included a related Pact Boon and invocations for it, though.

[Nicrosil]

Not for the purposes of this contest. Pact Boons are as big a part of warlock class choice as Patron, but they don't have a standard progression. Several Patron submissions have included a related Pact Boon and invocations for it, though.

Good to know; thanks!

[SleeplessWriter]

Okay, so I was a little excited for the next contest and just made my whole Shadow Knight subclass in like a day. It was a lot of fun, but it'll probably need a lot of tuning. Pretty sure it's a little over powered for a fighter subclass at the moment. I'll probably have to scale back most of the minions, especially the dragon (yes, you get a dragon as your capstone feature for the subclass).

If it's okay I could post it here in the chat thread a bit early if anyone wants to see it (it would be in a spoiler to save space in this thread, of course). That wouldn't violate any contest rules, right?

[BerzerkerUnit]

Can you post a link to the next contest? What’s the theme?

[SleeplessWriter]

I think he was going to wait until the voting was done before posting the next contest thread, but since there was a tie between themes last time the next theme was already chosen. Calling Card: summoner subclasses. Hope that helps.

I decided to steer away from making a caster since that seemed the easy option and decided I'd try my hand at making a fighter with a few solid minions to back him up.

Also, side note: do we have a theme in the pool for music and performance based subclasses? If not, I'd like to throw The Band in as a theme: whether it's a mariachi bard, a disco monk, a DJ wizard, or Dancing Knights, they'll all fit right in on the stage.

Also as another side note, what are all the themes on the list so far, I'm curious. Or would you prefer to keep them secret until they come up for a vote?

[nickl_2000]

Also as another side note, what are all the themes on the list so far, I'm curious. Or would you prefer to keep them secret until they come up for a vote?

Look in the first post of the thread. All the ideas are in there.

[Amechra]

Oh man, I hope we get Scaling Strangely as the next theme soon. Character options that scale based off stuff like how rich your character is or whatever are my favorite things.

[SleeplessWriter]

Look in the first post of the thread. All the ideas are in there.

Thanks (there's less than I thought there would be).

[MoleMage]

Thanks (there's less than I thought there would be).

I remove old ones as they get used also, so the list has stayed about the same size over time.

[MoleMage]

Only 2 and a bit days to go on voting and it looks like the Tacticon Rogue is in the lead, followed closely by the Demagogue cleric. If you haven't already done so, don't forget to cast your lot!

EDIT: I also updated the class frequency table in the first post with contest 8 and contest 9's results. Our most popular class for submissions is the Barbarian, and out least popular is the Paladin.

[MoleMage]

And voting is now concluded!

In 3rd place, with 9 points, we have Vogie's Arrogate Rogue. Plan elaborate heists! Forgo sneak attack so your allies can get a hit in! Drive vehicles better!

In 2nd place, with 11 points, we have Rawrawrawr's Demagogue Domain. Become your own divinity! Grant your followers spells (or at least spell)!

And our winner for Contest IX is BerzerkerUnit's Tacticon Rogue. Scout out the battlefield! Create tactical vantage points! Uncover the world's secrets!

Congrats to our winners! Keep your eyes open in the next little while for our next contest, which will be Contest X: Calling Card.

Contest 9 is called! We had a good group of entries this time around. Congrats to our winners.


And for those of you who have been making outlines and plotting for Contest X and its pre-determined theme, here's your thread! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?594568-D-amp-D-Subclass-Contest-X-Calling-Card&p=24070888#post24070888)

[nickl_2000]

Congratulations to the winners! Now, to think of something for the next one.

[nickl_2000]

I've decided on my idea of where I going to go. So, if anyone needs ideas let me know and I can drop some options to you that I didn't decide to go with.

[RickAsWritten]

My submission, the Bladecloak Rogue, is up. The guy that always seems to magically pull knives out of nowhere is one of my favorite fantasy tropes, so I made a subclass about it.

I hope the balance is ok, but this is a first draft, so please let me know if anything is entirely out-of-wack. Thanks.

Roguish Archetype - Bladecloak (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=24075571&postcount=9)

[Breccia]

My submission, the Bladecloak Rogue, is up.

Gotta say, when "make a summoner" was the topic, I never would have expected this approach. It's very imaginative!

[Fnissalot]

The bladecloak was a cool take on the theme.

I posted my sorcerer origin "The Lineage". You summon your ancestors spirits into yourself to gain abilities. Comments are welcome.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Lineage Sorcerer is interesting. I might buff the Guardian Spirit as “a shield that adds your Proficiency Bonus to AC.”

As is the Dancer is nearly a 5th level spell effect (Farstep) while the Shield is nearly a 1st (Shield of Faith). Both normally require concentration, both are somehow limited, but the disparity is great.

If that’s still too good then perhaps reduce the Dancer to “move half your speed as a bonus action” that is some functionality without the virtual grapple immunity that comes with a free teleports.

[Fnissalot]

The plan was to balance the effects slightly over a 2nd level spell. Most Sorcerers gets a small situational damage buff at that level, so for the cost of a second level spell slot you get the same effect but for all damaging spells during a short duration. That felt fair to me. In addition, they do not need to be perfect balanced against each other since you can choose every time you pay for the feature which spirit you conjure. IMO it is more important that they fill their niche role then than that they are perfectly balanced against each other.



Lineage Sorcerer is interesting. I might buff the Guardian Spirit as “a shield that adds your Proficiency Bonus to AC.”

That is way too good though. That is just a lot superior to the spell shield. It is like 10 level 1 spell slots when you reached 13th level. Guardian (renamed it to protector since the subclass uses the spell spirit guardians as well) was aimed to be an alternative to shield but with a longer duration. When I was writing the subclass, I almost decreased it to +1 bonus to AC since I thought it might be too good as it was with +2.




As is the Dancer is nearly a 5th level spell effect (Farstep) while the Shield is nearly a 1st (Shield of Faith). Both normally require concentration, both are somehow limited, but the disparity is great.

If that’s still too good then perhaps reduce the Dancer to “move half your speed as a bonus action” that is some functionality without the virtual grapple immunity that comes with a free teleports.


They are not totally free, activating the feature costs as a second level spell slot and 15 feet is a lot less than 60 feet. I was comparing it to expeditious retreat and I think it needs to be better than that as half that spell is not worth 3 sorcery points. Changed dancer to take the disengage action and add a 5ft movement speed increase. That should solve the grapple escape atleast.

[SleeplessWriter]

Huh. Bladecloack is an interesting take. most of the stuff seems relatively balanced at this point, though the 'thunder' option for primordial blades is a bit overpowered at the moment. Just give it a saving throw and let the DM have his golems, that should fix it.

My first reaction to the lineage sorcerer is that it seems a little weak at first level, though if used wisely augury and speak with dead in the early game could be sorta useful, but would start to taper off after about 3rd level and is all but gone after 5th. By then other casters in the party will be able to use them more than you can. The other first level feature may as well just be expertise in the history skill, it would be less clunky and still fit the flavor of the class. I like the touch about heirlooms as spellcasting focuses, though. It really adds a ton of fun, and possibly ridiculous roleplay possibilities. With the right backstory you could use your great, great, great grandma's cookware as a spellcasting focus. Beware the deadly frying pan, it's a wand now, too, not just a blunt weapon and cooking implement.
Also, minor question about tactician: when it says you can't take actions until the end of your next turn does that mean ALL actions, including bonus actions, reactions (if you get another on your turn) and the movement action, or is it supposed to just be the action action. I think it's supposed to be the latter, but I'm unsure how to word that to make it clearer.

All in all things are shaping up to be pretty interesting for this competition.

[Fnissalot]

My first reaction to the lineage sorcerer is that it seems a little weak at first level, though if used wisely augury and speak with dead in the early game could be sorta useful, but would start to taper off after about 3rd level and is all but gone after 5th. By then other casters in the party will be able to use them more than you can. The other first level feature may as well just be expertise in the history skill, it would be less clunky and still fit the flavor of the class. I like the touch about heirlooms as spellcasting focuses, though. It really adds a ton of fun, and possibly ridiculous roleplay possibilities. With the right backstory you could use your great, great, great grandma's cookware as a spellcasting focus. Beware the deadly frying pan, it's a wand now, too, not just a blunt weapon and cooking implement.
Also, minor question about tactician: when it says you can't take actions until the end of your next turn does that mean ALL actions, including bonus actions, reactions (if you get another on your turn) and the movement action, or is it supposed to just be the action action. I think it's supposed to be the latter, but I'm unsure how to word that to make it clearer.

All in all things are shaping up to be pretty interesting for this competition.

Fair points!

Might need to buff the first level a little.

It should only limit you from doing a normal action on your next turn. In practice, it lets you do your action earlier.

[MoleMage]

Well, the first draft of the Hive Conclave is up. I thought about doing a few things, including slime wizard and ghost (or ghost-pirate) rogue and yes, Pokemon ranger, but I decided to go with bees instead.

It's probably a little off-balance, as I haven't actually looked at the numbers yet.

As for the other entries, I'm going to start doing feedback hopefully next week. I normally leave feedback until a bunch of classes are up and complete so I can do it in one big batch, but I'm going to be away from PC during the last week of the contest, and so I'm going to try an earlier start than usual.

[BerzerkerUnit]

That is way too good though. That is just a lot superior to the spell shield. It is like 10 level 1 spell slots when you reached 13th level. Guardian (renamed it to protector since the subclass uses the spell spirit guardians as well) was aimed to be an alternative to shield but with a longer duration. When I was writing the subclass, I almost decreased it to +1 bonus to AC since I thought it might be too good as it was with +2.



I disagree with the balance assessment there. First, to use this you're not using one of the other features, making actually casting shield a better choice most of the time. Second, it's explicitly worse than the shield spell for the majority of the career. Most characters never see 13th level (according to WotC data indicating most campaigns end before 7th level spells come into play).

If you're that concerned about preserving the ascendancy of the Shield spell, then you could have it function like a parry rather than an AC buff, adding prof to AC for the triggering attack only. Still very good, just not as good when you're being focus fired.

Good luck either way!

[BerzerkerUnit]

SleeplessWriter,

I’m liking the look of the Shadowmaster Fighter.

For the dragon you might want to go with a Young Dragon (~CR 5), just change resistance and breath to Necrotic. Maybe add your level in Temp HP and your Proficiency bonus to attacks. Those are the buffs the Hex Spectre gets.

Alternatively you could swap fluff for the half dragon veteran (making it a dragon and being Necrotic).

My vote would be the Young Dragon though since it can serve as a mount.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Really liking the Hive Conclave. I’d like to see a little more variation to include Ants. Maybe if you swapped carrying a Hive for using your body as a Hive ala Ninja Scroll or Naruto.

[MoleMage]

Really liking the Hive Conclave. I’d like to see a little more variation to include Ants. Maybe if you swapped carrying a Hive for using your body as a Hive ala Ninja Scroll or Naruto.

Maybe if I did it tempest barbarian style where you pick an insect but can change it each level? Are there any other options that would be appropriate and distinct enough? Maybe ants, termites, and bee/wasp/hornets? Ants would have more physical damage and moderate toughness, bees would have fly and more poison damage, and termites would be toughest but deal less damage than the other two?

[SleeplessWriter]

SleeplessWriter,

I’m liking the look of the Shadowmaster Fighter.

For the dragon you might want to go with a Young Dragon (~CR 5), just change resistance and breath to Necrotic. Maybe add your level in Temp HP and your Proficiency bonus to attacks. Those are the buffs the Hex Spectre gets.

Alternatively you could swap fluff for the half dragon veteran (making it a dragon and being Necrotic).

My vote would be the Young Dragon though since it can serve as a mount.

Thanks! I couldn't find just a blank slate for a young dragon, but the young white dragon was pretty close, and without the lair actions, ice walk, or burrow or swim speeds it should be a little closer to a 5 CR creature.
I also gave it a tail attack, but I'm not entirely certain I should keep that at this point. Balance wise the tail attack lets the fighter make the same four attacks they could at 20th level, but without all the enchanted gear that they would almost certainly have at that stage of the game, though, I'm not certain if that would be too much. Granted, the six charges it takes to activate this ability aren't that cheap, since it'll take about six short rests to save up, which works out to about two or three days. So while the summoning technically doesn't pass the bag of rats test it does prevent general abuse by making you have to judge when to use resources, such as choosing whether to summon a massive dragon later or adding a few tanky giants to the battle.

That being said, I'm still not sure how well the shadow soldiers will do at higher levels. I thought about maybe giving them undead fortitude as well, which would also up the strategic value of black banners over the other options you get at 10th level. The other possibility I thought of was just a flat boost to their hit points, but I'm hesitant to add more than I have already, as that could easily put it above the shadow giants hp wise.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Maybe if I did it tempest barbarian style where you pick an insect but can change it each level? Are there any other options that would be appropriate and distinct enough? Maybe ants, termites, and bee/wasp/hornets? Ants would have more physical damage and moderate toughness, bees would have fly and more poison damage, and termites would be toughest but deal less damage than the other two?

Ants could do a forced move effect for creeps and objects referencing their great strength and ability to make bridges and rafts with their bodies.
Termites could have object damage and be more effective against constructs (Adamantine Mandibles!)
I’d actually separate bees and wasps, let Wasps do the poison and bees could provide a buff (SUGAR RUSH!)

Good luck with whatever you decide!

[BerzerkerUnit]

Thanks! I couldn't find just a blank slate for a young dragon, but the young white dragon was pretty close, and without the lair actions, ice walk, or burrow or swim speeds it should be a little closer to a 5 CR creature.
I also gave it a tail attack, but I'm not entirely certain I should keep that at this point. Balance wise the tail attack lets the fighter make the same four attacks they could at 20th level, but without all the enchanted gear that they would almost certainly have at that stage of the game, though, I'm not certain if that would be too much. Granted, the six charges it takes to activate this ability aren't that cheap, since it'll take about six short rests to save up, which works out to about two or three days. So while the summoning technically doesn't pass the bag of rats test it does prevent general abuse by making you have to judge when to use resources, such as choosing whether to summon a massive dragon later or adding a few tanky giants to the battle.

That being said, I'm still not sure how well the shadow soldiers will do at higher levels. I thought about maybe giving them undead fortitude as well, which would also up the strategic value of black banners over the other options you get at 10th level. The other possibility I thought of was just a flat boost to their hit points, but I'm hesitant to add more than I have already, as that could easily put it above the shadow giants hp wise.

You could allow the Shadow Soldiers to just be Shadows at that level. Glass cannons that everything stops to destroy after they appear. Strength damage on a hit makes them terrifying and having a bunch pop up and attack means you might cut a creep’s effectiveness in half if not outright kill them.

Young Brass or Young White stats should be fine with Temp HP for fighter level and your proficiency or Con bonus to their attack rolls.

If you have the Fighter sacrifice an attack to make the Dragon Attack or breathe, it shouldn’t be a problem. Maybe allow one breath per summon unless the fighter spends his second wind to let it breathe again.

Good luck whatever you decide!

[Vogie]

The Monk Archetype Way of the Gemini is up!

Inspired by the "speed clones" of speedsters, I'm using the Mirror Image mechanics to start the process, which gets more and more complex, until the archetype capstone allows the monk to literally summon a copy of itself.

I'm pretty happy with it, but the wording for Splinter Twin could probably be better.

[Fnissalot]

The Monk Archetype Way of the Gemini is up!

Inspired by the "speed clones" of speedsters, I'm using the Mirror Image mechanics to start the process, which gets more and more complex, until the archetype capstone allows the monk to literally summon a copy of itself.

I'm pretty happy with it, but the wording for Splinter Twin could probably be better.

Supercool! I love the spell mirror image and it is so cool to have a subclass built around the concept!

The only thing I have to say otherwise is that some parts feel a bit ambiguous with Myriad Strike and Displacement by Decoy. Myriad strike could probably be written as:


At level 6, your control over your duplicates expands. As an action, you can cause one of the duplicates to move up to your movement speed and make two unarmed strikes.

When you use your Flurry of Blows, you may have one of your duplicates that does not share your space make an unarmed strike against a creature

Firstly, it removes the confusion about "within your speed" of yourself or it. Secondly, do you still count the duplicate for multilocation if they moved away from you? Third, it is a bit cleaner writing of the flurry of blows part.

For Displacement by Decoy I would switch places on "that don't share a space with you" and "within 100 ft" as it is a little less ambiguous about what should be within 100 ft.

[nickl_2000]

I ditched my old attempt because it my mind just wasn't in it, so I will let it sit on the backburner for awhile. Instead, I created a first draft of the Druid, Circle of the Pocket Monster.
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=24086254&postcount=12

Please feel free to tell me comments, thoughts, criticism, and anything else.

[Vogie]

Supercool! I love the spell mirror image and it is so cool to have a subclass built around the concept!

Thanks! I thought they sounded off. I've updated their wording to match.

I've also changed the AC on the Duplicates to 8+Dex+Wis, making them more monk-like, but still easier to hit than the original Gemini monk.

I've also increased the Ki for Displacement because it can also be used as a teleport... kind of.

[Vogie]

Some feedback for the submitted classes
There's just too much going on. At all times.

The three 3rd level abilities are too much. It could've been okay if it was merely frontloaded, but there were 2 7th level and 2 10th level abilities immediately following it. Once you add the stat blocks for the summons we're looking at an amount of text that makes the 3.5 grapple rules look small.

What I'd like to see is something more succinct, more eloquent. Maybe a slightly buffed Mark of Darkness at 3, move both early Shadow Summoning to 7, move upgrades at 10 and so on.

I like the concept and can't wait to see the full fleshed out form. Having an low-CR beast that enlarges on rage is pretty cool. I'm interested in the mechanics you choose for the selection & healing of the animal companion.

Inspiring Story is currently too powerful. You're getting free double-twinned Healing Words 3-10 times per rest. I think making it something like:
When you inspire someone they roll that die and gain that much health in addtion to the BI die.
You roll a BI die, and heal that many creatures a flat amount
You roll a BI die + whatever to gain an amount of healing, then divvy it out to a number of characters

I'd switch Tall Tales and Storyteller Summons. It's too much at 3rd level and too little at 6th. Switching them is the easiest way to do so.

Veteran Ally is cool, but seems overly complicated. I'd start off with just the ability to summon a single ally, then turn on the legion-summoning at 15th level. Also, how does the Ally summoning scale? It seems to be 1/3rd level

Back your partner is an odd location - typically all 7th level abilities are Aura interactions. I'd probably keep the "I take the damage" from Redemption and Master commander into this location, while keeping a "They take the damage" in the 20th level slot.

By My Command is probably OP because they're not limited by much. You use your Channel Divinity to create a bunch of smiting paladins, then recall them for more juice, rinse and repeat

You can't actually summon anything until you get 3rd level spells at level... 9, so I'd like to see more powerful aura before level 9. Probably a more broad "celestial, fiend, or elemental" would work for the aura and the 15th level abilities.

I love Calling In Favors


I'd like to see more of Dagger Bond. The Blinkback feature is great, but having both blinkback AND Dagger bond seems odd.

Hidden Cuts, Primordial Blades, and Symphony of Dagger are all really neat neat. Hidden cuts should probably have a cooldown, but I doubt it'd be too frequently used.

This is a really elegant subclass. The 6th level ability is very broad and powerful, but you correctly shrunk the other features to balance the power level.

Calling the Ancestors probably should indicate at what level you can cast it at - or if it's always at 3rd level, just notate that.


This is a cool concept. Hive Cluster should probably be made closer to an Artificer Summon - that is, in its' own stat block instead of being written out in abstract.

Hivemind should be moved to Hivekin at 3rd level... Rangers' 5th level slot is just for their Extra/Coordinated/Alternative Attack.

I like the Coordinated Strike, but would probably prefer an Extra attack with a warlock-esque way to give up an attack to cause them to take an additional saving throw. That gives the Ranger a bit more flexibility, as they aren't limited in attacks when fighting someone outside of the swarm.

The piercing stings counting as magical from Potent Venom should probably moved to 7, and the movement reduction from Inhibiting swarm should be moved to Potent Venom.

I love the innovations

Catch them all is neat. My only caveat is that you can only catch things that you kill, without being particularly good at killing... so you're not going to have a ton of these for most of the early levels. I'd change it to some sort of Power Word variant, where you can catch targets of X HP or less, giving you a window of "catchability"... maybe a contest, skill check vs saving throw instead of Int(Nature) vs 10+CR. Also, perhaps make this an action or bonus action? Then Master Catcher can expand on this to make it even easier, maybe allowing you to catch as a reaction.

Nature checks are an interesting choice for this - while it makes sense, AND a Druid should have picked up proficiency at character creation, but nothing else on the archetype (or as a druid in general) runs off Intelligence. You could:

change it to Animal Handling
have a subclass feature make Nature a Wisdom Check
give a your intelligence(nature) checks a bonus equal to wisdom
make this the "Intellect Druid" and make everything use Intelligence rather than Wisdom

You're My Choice should be reworded a bit. I'd switch the last two sentences to clear that the destroyed creature also destroys the essence and isn't regained with a long rest.

[RickAsWritten]

I'd like to see more of Dagger Bond. The Blinkback feature is great, but having both blinkback AND Dagger bond seems odd.

Hidden Cuts, Primordial Blades, and Symphony of Dagger are all really neat neat. Hidden cuts should probably have a cooldown, but I doubt it'd be too frequently used.

Thanks for the good feedback. Dagger Bond is largely a ribbon ability. The character is all about always having knives, so Dagger Bond makes it so that they always have them. I wanted to add the line from the Eldritch Knight ability that prevents disarmament, but was worried that that would be too much. What do you think?

Yeah, I should probably put a limiter on Hidden Cuts. I purposely made the ability pretty niche because of the relative strength of the rest of the subclass, but to make it fit in with the rest of the system's design standards, I should add a cooldown. I think "once per short rest" should be fine since it will likely be a rare occurrence and isn't all that powerful.

[Fnissalot]

Some feedback for the submitted classes
This is a really elegant subclass. The 6th level ability is very broad and powerful, but you correctly shrunk the other features to balance the power level.

Calling the Ancestors probably should indicate at what level you can cast it at - or if it's always at 3rd level, just notate that.


Thanks! Good point about the spell level. I was considering it at some point but forgot to add it.

[Vogie]

Thanks for the good feedback. Dagger Bond is largely a ribbon ability. The character is all about always having knives, so Dagger Bond makes it so that they always have them. I wanted to add the line from the Eldritch Knight ability that prevents disarmament, but was worried that that would be too much. What do you think?

I'm worried that a pair of largely ribbon utility abilities isn't quite good experience at 3rd level. If you combine the two (I'll add it below) and add some more exciting/active at level 3:

A sly flourish, allowing you to intimidate a target as a bonus action to give the target disadvantage against you, or give you advantage?
bumping up the damage die of finesse weapons you wield?
the ability to cast sword burst as a bonus action?
Lean into the thrown abilities, with things like sharpshooter for thrown weapons?

Knife at the Ready
Starting at 3rd level, you have a seemingly endless supply of knives. You can perform a ritual over the course of 1 hour that creates a magical bond between yourself and your daggers, which can be done during a short rest. You can create the bond with a magical dagger, but you can’t affect an artifact or a sentient weapon in this way. You can summon or dismiss that weapon as a bonus action on your turn, shunting it into or pulling it from an extradimensional space. You can have up to two bonded weapons and can summon both with your bonus action. If you attempt to bond with a third weapon, you must break the bond with one of the other two.
In addition, when you make a ranged weapon attack with a dagger, as part of the Attack action you can reach into a pocket dimension in your cloak and draw an exact copy of the dagger that you just threw. Thrown daggers lose any magical properties at the end of your current turn and disappear from existence after one minute.

[nickl_2000]

Some feedback for the submitted classes

Catch them all is neat. My only caveat is that you can only catch things that you kill, without being particularly good at killing... so you're not going to have a ton of these for most of the early levels. I'd change it to some sort of Power Word variant, where you can catch targets of X HP or less, giving you a window of "catchability"... maybe a contest, skill check vs saving throw instead of Int(Nature) vs 10+CR. Also, perhaps make this an action or bonus action? Then Master Catcher can expand on this to make it even easier, maybe allowing you to catch as a reaction.

Nature checks are an interesting choice for this - while it makes sense, AND a Druid should have picked up proficiency at character creation, but nothing else on the archetype (or as a druid in general) runs off Intelligence. You could:

change it to Animal Handling
have a subclass feature make Nature a Wisdom Check
give a your intelligence(nature) checks a bonus equal to wisdom
make this the "Intellect Druid" and make everything use Intelligence rather than Wisdom

You're My Choice should be reworded a bit. I'd switch the last two sentences to clear that the destroyed creature also destroys the essence and isn't regained with a long rest.


Dang, you have been busy. There are some great thoughts that clean and clarify things.

I did change the capture mechanism to cost am action and use a spell attack. That way I can let the designer mechanisms take care of scaling for me. Also it needs to be under 8 hp to capture it.

Does it need a limit on how many creatures you can attempt to capture per short rest? The concern I have is capturing rats and then immediately burning them for the reaction ability.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Given that Rattatta are such trash-mon, I think burning them bag of rats style is a feature not a bug.

But seriously, Greyskull Barbarian (Renamed to Legendary Dragoon) is up in full. Looking forward to any feedback.

[Breccia]

By My Command is probably OP because they're not limited by much. You use your Channel Divinity to create a bunch of smiting paladins, then recall them for more juice, rinse and repeat

Except that any spell slots they use up come from your pool, so they're still gone when you recall the Ally.

And you can't "repeat" for ten minutes because of exactly the problem you're talking about.

[Vogie]

Dang, you have been busy. There are some great thoughts that clean and clarify things.

I did change the capture mechanism to cost am action and use a spell attack. That way I can let the designer mechanisms take care of scaling for me. Also it needs to be under 8 hp to capture it.

Does it need a limit on how many creatures you can attempt to capture per short rest? The concern I have is capturing rats and then immediately burning them for the reaction ability.

I don't think so. And looking at it again, maybe you shouldn't limit the number of Definitely-Not-Pokémon you can capture so strictly. When you think about it, you're already limited by the number you can summon per rest, and I could certainly see Pocket Monster Druids gunning for that Bag of Tricks so they can always collect some jackels, weasels, and rats... because it also essentially acts as 3 more "I choose you" charges per long rest, at the risk of being random.

You could:

Create a flat minor component cost for the "pokeballs", thus scaling into obscurity as you level. This could be something purchasable in any world (something like "a sphere of wood worth 5 sp"), or generated via short rest.
Cap the number of monsters held to something that scales, like Strength or Constitution, as a nod to the "throw" or the "carry". Maybe proficiency + STR?
Cap the number of monsters by combined CR. Perhaps equal to Druid level? For example, at Level 3, you could get CR 3 worth of Monsters, but can only capture CR 1 creatures, so you could grab 3 CR 1s, 2 CR 1s and 4 CR 1/4s, and so on)
Require level CR 1 and higher creatures for the level 10 ability. Because Rattatas are useless.



Except that any spell slots they use up come from your pool, so they're still gone when you recall the Ally.

Ah. It wasn't clear on the first read-through, but you're right - it does say "using your spell slots". MB

[nickl_2000]

I don't think so. And looking at it again, maybe you shouldn't limit the number of Definitely-Not-Pokémon you can capture so strictly. When you think about it, you're already limited by the number you can summon per rest, and I could certainly see Pocket Monster Druids gunning for that Bag of Tricks so they can always collect some jackels, weasels, and rats... because it also essentially acts as 3 more "I choose you" charges per long rest, at the risk of being random.

You could:

Create a flat minor component cost for the "pokeballs", thus scaling into obscurity as you level. This could be something purchasable in any world (something like "a sphere of wood worth 5 sp"), or generated via short rest.
Cap the number of monsters held to something that scales, like Strength or Constitution, as a nod to the "throw" or the "carry". Maybe proficiency + STR?
Cap the number of monsters by combined CR. Perhaps equal to Druid level? For example, at Level 3, you could get CR 3 worth of Monsters, but can only capture CR 1 creatures, so you could grab 3 CR 1s, 2 CR 1s and 4 CR 1/4s, and so on)
Require level CR 1 and higher creatures for the level 10 ability. Because Rattatas are useless.




Thanks, I limited the level 10 ability to wisdom mod uses power long rest. Then removed the restrictions on amount is monster captured.

Also added a ball mechanic to make 1 per long rest at the cost of 5 gp per ball. At low levels this is significant, but quickly becomes not a worry.

[MoleMage]

Some feedback for the submitted classes

This is a cool concept. Hive Cluster should probably be made closer to an Artificer Summon - that is, in its' own stat block instead of being written out in abstract.

Hivemind should be moved to Hivekin at 3rd level... Rangers' 5th level slot is just for their Extra/Coordinated/Alternative Attack.

I like the Coordinated Strike, but would probably prefer an Extra attack with a warlock-esque way to give up an attack to cause them to take an additional saving throw. That gives the Ranger a bit more flexibility, as they aren't limited in attacks when fighting someone outside of the swarm.

The piercing stings counting as magical from Potent Venom should probably moved to 7, and the movement reduction from Inhibiting swarm should be moved to Potent Venom.

I love the innovations


Thanks for the feedback! I should have some for you tomorrow. I implemented some changes based on this.


Stat block implemented for Hive Cluster. Four types of swarms now exist (Ants: Battlefield control/best physical damage, Bees: Protecting Allies, Termites: Toughest swarm, Wasps: Faster and make more "attacks", but deal almost exclusively poison damage). I'll need to rebalance the four against each other still.
Hivemind moved to 7th level, instead of down to 3rd (as 3rd already has a lot going on).
Coordinated Strike no longer requires that the extra save be the target of the ranger's attack, but if it is they have disadvantage. I didn't want to give them Extra Attack plus something, because no other conclave gives both extra attack and something else.
Inhibiting Swarm's move reduction moved to Potent Venom. Potent Venom's magical stings moved to Inhibiting Swarm.

[Vogie]

Coordinated Strike no longer requires that the extra save be the target of the ranger's attack, but if it is they have disadvantage. I didn't want to give them Extra Attack plus something, because no other conclave gives both extra attack and something else.


I wasn't thinking putting that in the 5th level ability. I was thinking more like a Chainlocks "Attack, or..." clause. So, something like

"Additionally, when you take the Attack action, you can forgo one of your own attacks to force a creature in your swarm's space to make their saving throw against your swarm."

As part of the third level ability. That way you could just give both an "extra attack" AND a coordinated attack.

However, the update looks good with the coordinated attack, so I can't complain too much.

[nickl_2000]

The rest will be coming. Just saving it as few times as I go.



This is a really, really unique subclass and fits the theming well. The problem I have is that it feel to me more like an old edition prestige class than a subclass. The struggle I have for this as a subclass is that it doesn't grow as the character grows and doesn't give you extra abilities as you level. There really is no reason that I would take more than 1 level into the Guardian Angel subclass. On the other hand, taking 1 level of Warlock and 1 level of Cleric along with a bunch of levels in something else would be more powerful.

To put this in as a subclass would make the most sense as a Warlock subclass and having it grow some.




I'm assuming that this is a Fighter subclass, should probably mention that.

Overall, my gut says that there is to much going on with this subclass. As a fighter, you are already getting multiple action surges and 4 attacks (potentially) and this subclass gives some pretty massive bonuses. Other than that, nearly everything in the subclass is combat related (aside from Shadowtouched), it needs more in the social/exploration tiers to balance out the power some.




A little bit of formatting would be pretty nice.... It would just make it easier to read and give a better impression in the judgment phase.

Beast Companion - I don't foresee anyone using the beast attack in most cases, but I don't see the problem in allowing it.

Battle Beast - By the power of greyskull? I would define the size here to clarify it. Specifically, I would say that they grow to one size larger than your character size. Why worry about the fly speed ending in a safe place? Just simply make it so that your character falls off, there is a risk vs reward there.

Dread Companion - What is the save DC based on? Also, this could end up being silly powerful if you don't either have a recharge or have it so that they are immune after the first time affected by it.

Best(Beast?) Bond - Is the healing aspect of this when you start the rage, or anytime that they are dropped to 0 HP when you are raging?




Inspiring Story - Is this a replacement for a use of bardic inspiration (ala college of whispers) or an addition? As an addition it seems like to much. It's effectively casting three copies of healing word as a single bonus action and getting more. I think it definitely needs to be a replacement instead. Also, does this work if someone is asleep or unconscious? I would think no, but it should be spelled out.

Tale Teller's Tall Tales - Wow.... an additional proficiency, expertise in two skills, and a more fluffy ability. I think it is a little bit to much. Maybe only expertise in the choice of persuasion/deception?

Storytellers Summons - You are giving attacks to the spirits... What is their attack mod? What happens if they have to make saves? It may be worthwhile to make these a spell effects without AC and hp(sort of like the circle of shepherd). Then you don't need to define the AC or HP. Also, what level spells are these is I cast dispel magic on them? Also, the 14th level abilities seem incredibly, incredibly over powered. These are abilities that can completely end an encounter. They really need to be tamed down.




Back Your Partner - Paladin's only get a single use of channel divinity per rest. So, the last paragraph doesn't make a whole lore of sense here. I don't really like the mechanic here were you can get your channel divinity back. The idea of calling them back is cool, but I would have calling them back do something else (heal HP per allies level pulled back, they die in a burst of energy doing damage, whatever).




I like the way the flavor is going here, obviously you need to fill some of that in there, but it looks pretty interesting. There is very little that I feel needs to be changed or modified. It looks like an extremely playable class.




Knife at the Ready - The phrasing here is a little bit wonky. It could be tightened up some to make the whole thing clearer. Something like
"Starting at 3rd level, you have a seemingly endless supply of knives. When you make a ranged weapon attack with a dagger, as part of the Attack action you can reach into a pocket dimension in your cloak and draw an exact copy of one of your bonded daggers. These daggers disintegrate at the end of your turn."

Hidden Cuts - replacing "at its lowest spell level" with "as a 2nd level spell" would be clearer.
Does this need to be limited in some way? As written you could use your bonus action to hide each turn and cast this spell every single turn (especially if your stealth is bad). Also, does it require concentration?

Symphony of Daggers - This is pretty awesome.... Question though, does the sneak attack count as your PCs sneak attack? Or can you sneak attack with the animated daggers and also sneak attack on your turn? Also, does this require concentration?



Overall this is a pretty tight subclass, I don't see a whole lot that needs adjustment in function or flavor.

Boon of Legacies - The recalling and doing something mechanic here seem overly complicated. Dancer - Gives you the ability to use disengage as a bonus action and +5 movement speed. Protector - You conjure shield into your free hand and get +2 to ac... etc. Simplifying the mechanic here seems worthwhile.



This is pretty sweet, flavorful and for the most case balanced well. Sure, I've always had a soft spot for ranger subclasses, but I haven't seen a good bug related one and this is a very good implementation of it.

Hive Swarm - Damage immunities here seem a little excessive. You are going to be able to summon these things in a lot of cases and never have to worry about them taking damage. Plus in looking in the MM it appears that many swarms have resistance instead of immunities.




Looks like a Monk subclass.... Make sure you mention that :) This is a pretty cool concept, but there are a few problematic features that need to be addressed. Still, it's a solid start.

Multilocation - What happens if the duplicate is hit with dispel magic or a fireball? Do they make a save or die? Also, this starts getting a little bit odd when the duplicates can move away from you. How do they target the duplicates who are 50 feet away?

Myriad Strike - Just add in there that the duplicates use your attack mod and damage and this should be good.

Displacement by Decoy - As a reaction to what?

[BerzerkerUnit]

The rest will be coming. Just saving it as few times as I go.



This is a really, really unique subclass and fits the theming well. The problem I have is that it feel to me more like an old edition prestige class than a subclass. The struggle I have for this as a subclass is that it doesn't grow as the character grows and doesn't give you extra abilities as you level. There really is no reason that I would take more than 1 level into the Guardian Angel subclass. On the other hand, taking 1 level of Warlock and 1 level of Cleric along with a bunch of levels in something else would be more powerful.

To put this in as a subclass would make the most sense as a Warlock subclass and having it grow some.




I'm assuming that this is a Fighter subclass, should probably mention that.

Overall, my gut says that there is to much going on with this subclass. As a fighter, you are already getting multiple action surges and 4 attacks (potentially) and this subclass gives some pretty massive bonuses. Other than that, nearly everything in the subclass is combat related (aside from Shadowtouched), it needs more in the social/exploration tiers to balance out the power some.




A little bit of formatting would be pretty nice.... It would just make it easier to read and give a better impression in the judgment phase.

Beast Companion - I don't foresee anyone using the beast attack in most cases, but I don't see the problem in allowing it.

Battle Beast - By the power of greyskull? I would define the size here to clarify it. Specifically, I would say that they grow to one size larger than your character size. Why worry about the fly speed ending in a safe place? Just simply make it so that your character falls off, there is a risk vs reward there.

Dread Companion - What is the save DC based on? Also, this could end up being silly powerful if you don't either have a recharge or have it so that they are immune after the first time affected by it.

Best(Beast?) Bond - Is the healing aspect of this when you start the rage, or anytime that they are dropped to 0 HP when you are raging?




Inspiring Story - Is this a replacement for a use of bardic inspiration (ala college of whispers) or an addition? As an addition it seems like to much. It's effectively casting three copies of healing word as a single bonus action and getting more. I think it definitely needs to be a replacement instead. Also, does this work if someone is asleep or unconscious? I would think no, but it should be spelled out.

Tale Teller's Tall Tales - Wow.... an additional proficiency, expertise in two skills, and a more fluffy ability. I think it is a little bit to much. Maybe only expertise in the choice of persuasion/deception?

Storytellers Summons - You are giving attacks to the spirits... What is their attack mod? What happens if they have to make saves? It may be worthwhile to make these a spell effects without AC and hp(sort of like the circle of shepherd). Then you don't need to define the AC or HP. Also, what level spells are these is I cast dispel magic on them? Also, the 14th level abilities seem incredibly, incredibly over powered. These are abilities that can completely end an encounter. They really need to be tamed down.




Back Your Partner - Paladin's only get a single use of channel divinity per rest. So, the last paragraph doesn't make a whole lore of sense here. I don't really like the mechanic here were you can get your channel divinity back. The idea of calling them back is cool, but I would have calling them back do something else (heal HP per allies level pulled back, they die in a burst of energy doing damage, whatever).




I like the way the flavor is going here, obviously you need to fill some of that in there, but it looks pretty interesting. There is very little that I feel needs to be changed or modified. It looks like an extremely playable class.




Knife at the Ready - The phrasing here is a little bit wonky. It could be tightened up some to make the whole thing clearer. Something like
"Starting at 3rd level, you have a seemingly endless supply of knives. When you make a ranged weapon attack with a dagger, as part of the Attack action you can reach into a pocket dimension in your cloak and draw an exact copy of one of your bonded daggers. These daggers disintegrate at the end of your turn."

Hidden Cuts - replacing "at its lowest spell level" with "as a 2nd level spell" would be clearer.
Does this need to be limited in some way? As written you could use your bonus action to hide each turn and cast this spell every single turn (especially if your stealth is bad). Also, does it require concentration?

Symphony of Daggers - This is pretty awesome.... Question though, does the sneak attack count as your PCs sneak attack? Or can you sneak attack with the animated daggers and also sneak attack on your turn? Also, does this require concentration?



Overall this is a pretty tight subclass, I don't see a whole lot that needs adjustment in function or flavor.

Boon of Legacies - The recalling and doing something mechanic here seem overly complicated. Dancer - Gives you the ability to use disengage as a bonus action and +5 movement speed. Protector - You conjure shield into your free hand and get +2 to ac... etc. Simplifying the mechanic here seems worthwhile.



This is pretty sweet, flavorful and for the most case balanced well. Sure, I've always had a soft spot for ranger subclasses, but I haven't seen a good bug related one and this is a very good implementation of it.

Hive Swarm - Damage immunities here seem a little excessive. You are going to be able to summon these things in a lot of cases and never have to worry about them taking damage. Plus in looking in the MM it appears that many swarms have resistance instead of immunities.




Looks like a Monk subclass.... Make sure you mention that :) This is a pretty cool concept, but there are a few problematic features that need to be addressed. Still, it's a solid start.

Multilocation - What happens if the duplicate is hit with dispel magic or a fireball? Do they make a save or die? Also, this starts getting a little bit odd when the duplicates can move away from you. How do they target the duplicates who are 50 feet away?

Myriad Strike - Just add in there that the duplicates use your attack mod and damage and this should be good.

Displacement by Decoy - As a reaction to what?



Thanks for your feedback on the Legendary Dragoon Barbarian Path!
The default Mount rules make it clear a creature has to be one size larger than you to be used as a mount, the feature says it grows in size to accommodate you as a mount, if it already can be a mount the growth would be cosmetic. I added “in your default form” so it’s clear it doesn’t become a a titanic creature if you Wildshape into a mammoth or something.

Battle Beast notes that if you don’t end in a safe space you both fall.

Dread Companion’s existing text explicitly states enemies that succeed on the save are immune for 24 hours.

Bond of Shared Vigor (formerly Best bond), I added the word Initiate for clarity.

As for formatting I’ll have a pdf available this weekend.

[nickl_2000]

Dread Companion’s existing text explicitly states enemies that succeed on the save are immune for 24 hours.


Actually my concern was for a low wisdom enemy who gets hit with it over and over again. It seems like it could turn an encounter pointless in a hurry. I was thinking something like. After the creature has been affected by this spell once they are immune. So, pass or fail they are immune for 24 hours after that. It still is prett darn good, but a little more limiting.

[Fnissalot]

The rest will be coming. Just saving it as few times as I go.


Overall this is a pretty tight subclass, I don't see a whole lot that needs adjustment in function or flavor.

Boon of Legacies - The recalling and doing something mechanic here seem overly complicated. Dancer - Gives you the ability to use disengage as a bonus action and +5 movement speed. Protector - You conjure shield into your free hand and get +2 to ac... etc. Simplifying the mechanic here seems worthwhile.



Dancer is written as it is since Boon of legacies takes a bonus action, and you wouldn't be able to use the effect of the dancer on the first turn otherwise.

The description of protector was mostly meant to give a bit more flavor, but I will remove it if it is to distracting.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Actually my concern was for a low wisdom enemy who gets hit with it over and over again. It seems like it could turn an encounter pointless in a hurry. I was thinking something like. After the creature has been affected by this spell once they are immune. So, pass or fail they are immune for 24 hours after that. It still is prett darn good, but a little more limiting.

I think I’ll leave it as is for now. This is way less effective than Monk stun lock. This ends automatically like Stunning Fist but applies a significantly weaker condition and to reengage, the PC would have to back up, provoking an AoO (possibly several) and then come back. Even with the Mobile feat the Mount would provoke and without mounted combatant feat it’s not going to last long.

But this does remind me, it doesn’t get the AC buff if it’s wearing armor.

[nickl_2000]

I think I’ll leave it as is for now. This is way less effective than Monk stun lock. This ends automatically like Stunning Fist but applies a significantly weaker condition and to reengage, the PC would have to back up, provoking an AoO (possibly several) and then come back. Even with the Mobile feat the Mount would provoke and without mounted combatant feat it’s not going to last long.

But this does remind me, it doesn’t get the AC buff if it’s wearing armor.

Fair enough, I just make suggestions as I see things and other see things differently than I do :smallbiggrin: At least I managed to remind you about something completely unrelated

[RickAsWritten]

I'm worried that a pair of largely ribbon utility abilities isn't quite good experience at 3rd level. If you combine the two (I'll add it below) and add some more exciting/active at level 3:

A sly flourish, allowing you to intimidate a target as a bonus action to give the target disadvantage against you, or give you advantage?
bumping up the damage die of finesse weapons you wield?
the ability to cast sword burst as a bonus action?
Lean into the thrown abilities, with things like sharpshooter for thrown weapons?

Knife at the Ready
Starting at 3rd level, you have a seemingly endless supply of knives. You can perform a ritual over the course of 1 hour that creates a magical bond between yourself and your daggers, which can be done during a short rest. You can create the bond with a magical dagger, but you can’t affect an artifact or a sentient weapon in this way. You can summon or dismiss that weapon as a bonus action on your turn, shunting it into or pulling it from an extradimensional space. You can have up to two bonded weapons and can summon both with your bonus action. If you attempt to bond with a third weapon, you must break the bond with one of the other two.
In addition, when you make a ranged weapon attack with a dagger, as part of the Attack action you can reach into a pocket dimension in your cloak and draw an exact copy of the dagger that you just threw. Thrown daggers lose any magical properties at the end of your current turn and disappear from existence after one minute.

I considered making them all one ability, but it's a bit of a "wall of text" when combined. I kept them separate largely for readability.

I think "increasing the damage die of your bonded daggers" is my favorite option for a minor power boost.





Knife at the Ready - The phrasing here is a little bit wonky. It could be tightened up some to make the whole thing clearer. Something like
"Starting at 3rd level, you have a seemingly endless supply of knives. When you make a ranged weapon attack with a dagger, as part of the Attack action you can reach into a pocket dimension in your cloak and draw an exact copy of one of your bonded daggers. These daggers disintegrate at the end of your turn."

Hidden Cuts - replacing "at its lowest spell level" with "as a 2nd level spell" would be clearer.
Does this need to be limited in some way? As written you could use your bonus action to hide each turn and cast this spell every single turn (especially if your stealth is bad). Also, does it require concentration?

Symphony of Daggers - This is pretty awesome.... Question though, does the sneak attack count as your PCs sneak attack? Or can you sneak attack with the animated daggers and also sneak attack on your turn? Also, does this require concentration?


For Knife at the Ready, it was largely a stylistic/aesthetic reason that I let them exist for a minute. I like the visualization of a battlefield covered with piles and piles of knives while the Bladecloak runs around continually chucking them their enemies. It probably makes more sense to change it though.

For Hidden Cuts, I added a "once per short rest" limiter. For concentration, I really don't know... I guess since the spell requires it, so should this ability, but since it goes away as soon as it damages someone it might not need it. I added it just to be safe.

For Symphony, it states that it requires concentration in the second-to-last sentence. I added a bit of clarification to the ability. Please let me know if it has improved readability. Thanks.

Roguish Archetype – Bladecloak (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=24075571&postcount=8)

[MoleMage]

I like the idea and how you're turning the contest on its head. Looking forward to the finished product.





You need a header section that names the subclass and specifies that it is for the fighter class.


I don't like Mark of Darkness as part of this class. The rotating charges have a bag of rats problem, and it feels out of place with the rest of the features. I'd rather see a static number of uses tied to normal recovery mechanics on Shadow Soldiers itself.
Shadow Soldiers are too cheap to activate. At low levels where you'll only have 1 or 2 it isn't terrible, but once you have 4 and 5 (which is doable considering their long duration and the number of charges you can store in your weapon), you're getting 4 or 5 attacks as a bonus action, which is a lot.
Shadow Giant: stats look fine.
Encroaching Shadows: As with the concern about bonus action economy on baseline soldiers, the fact is that once you have more soldiers than attacks, this is just too strong, especially considering your soldiers still can take their bonus action attacks.
Black Armaments: A fun way to build your own battalion.
Darkness Rising: Seems okay. Spreading the healing out is nice, but they are temporary units and their max health isn't great so you're probably overhealing several of them anyway.
Enduring Shadows: Unlike the Action Surge and Second Wind variants, this one only affects a single soldier. I think it's in a good place. The second part was confusing because you didn't restrict the soldiers' ability to make opportunity attacks previously, so it looks like you're giving them a feature they already had. I assume they were supposed to lack that feature initially until you get Enduring Shadows.
Master of Shadows: As a long rest capstone feature, this seems fine. I like that some of its attacks require your full action and some your bonus action, and I think treating the army in the same way might be appropriate.



I think overall the class just needs a bit of trimming down. As mentioned, I'd rather see charges built into Shadow Soldiers itself. Also, the number of soldiers you can activate per bonus action should be reduced, but maybe allow activating them in other ways (as an action activate all soldiers, in place of an attack activate two soldiers, etc.).



I'd like to see some formatting cleanup here, especially bolding for headers and the like.


Beast Companion: This is a little hard to follow because it feels like it jumps back and forth. I'd break it into sections: 1) how you get the beast 2) how the beast's stats change and healing 3) how the beast takes actions, bonus actions, and reactions. It also seems redundant that your beast can dash/dodge/disengage either when you command it to or when you yourself do so. I'd just leave the command it part in there and take out the mimicry part.
Battle Beast: The wording initially makes it seem that this is an innate function of the beast, but a closer reading makes it seem like it's intended to be a temporary effect while raging. It also isn't clear whether you can command your beast to attack as a bonus action and then also give up your own attacks or not.
Dread Companion: I like this feature. It encourages engaging multiple foes.
Best Bond: Should this be beast bond? The hit point recovery probably shouldn't require a 0 hp companion (especially considering that you only get one turn to heal the companion before it dies and might already be in a rage).
Legendary Forme: Do you pick the transformation each time you rage? CR 7 might be a bit high. The CR 6-7 dragons for example have hit points in triple digits, AC 18, and breath weapons that are as high as 11d8, on top of their 80 ft fly speed.



I think it's a fun class. It's hard to predict balance because beasts, monstrosities, and dragons are not all created equal, even within the same CR.




It's a fun idea. Stories are power is one of my favorite themes for magic.

Inspiring Story: I'd limit this to creatures below half health, similarly to Life Domain. As it stands, the bard gets 3x level healed hit points per inspiration die (up to 15x level as soon as their charisma hits 20). Compare to Lay on Hands (5x level) or Life Domain's channel effect (5x level per channel, capping at 15x at level 18, but also can only heal to half maximum).
Tall Tales: As written, you actually get double proficiency in both skills, even if you aren't proficient in one of them. (If I am proficient in neither skill and pick Persuasion, I also get double proficiency to Deception despite not even having normal proficiency in Deception). Otherwise it's okay.
Storyteller's summons. The number of uses is probably too high for independent summons. I think otherwise it's fine, though I'd like to see more stats (move speed, size, attributes/attack bonuses) before I commit to that.
Countless Tales: This isn't a very exciting feature, and it's probably too strong especially combined with Inspiring Story (now it caps at 30x level healing, which is just...a lot).

Overall, I like the concept but I feel like this doesn't deliver on the contest theme as strongly as it could. Make the summoned story characters a more central feature of the subclass and give them more detail and I'd be much happier.



I wasn't sure whether this was going to be a mundane legion or a "we are legion" situation at first, but your fluff blurb was unambiguous. I like the idea of a paladin who swears to a mundane group instead of a divine one.


Throughout, you have references to "ease of gameplay" justifying mechanics. While these are good commentary for the design process (and suitable for this thread), they are out of place in feature descriptions.
Oath Spells: Leomund's secret chest seems odd. Rest are okay.
Channel Divinity: I see this is where you put the core summoning feature. I was going to comment that Paladins normally get two Channel Divinity options, but I actually think it might be appropriate, given how big this one is, to only have one. It also puts a pretty hard limit on the number you can summon (basically 1 or 2 if you downsummon) since Paladins only get one use of Channel Divinity.
Back Your Partner: This functionally means that you always have your allies with you (since they last longer than a fight unless they die or you do).
By My Command: I like this, but it does exacerbate the nova paladin problem (you're using up the same amount of resources, yes, but you're also doing it in a shorter period of time). Maybe limit the usage to either the paladin or one veteran each round or require the investiture of the spell slots when the veteran is created which are lost if the veteran dies.
Master Commander: Do the auras stack? I assume not, because +3xCha to all saves is a lot of saving throw bonus. I do want the damage reduction to stack, though. I think it's not strong enough as a feature without that functionality.



Overall, I think you have one of the cleaner summoning mechanics in the thread so far, and I like the theme. Some features aren't entirely clear (Master Commander) and it looks like you built it assuming the paladin would get more Channel Divinities later, which they don't.



Here's the first half of the reviews. I will be back tomorrow afternoon hopefully with the rest of them.

[BerzerkerUnit]

]


I'd like to see some formatting cleanup here, especially bolding for headers and the like.


Beast Companion: This is a little hard to follow because it feels like it jumps back and forth. I'd break it into sections: 1) how you get the beast 2) how the beast's stats change and healing 3) how the beast takes actions, bonus actions, and reactions. It also seems redundant that your beast can dash/dodge/disengage either when you command it to or when you yourself do so. I'd just leave the command it part in there and take out the mimicry part.
Battle Beast: The wording initially makes it seem that this is an innate function of the beast, but a closer reading makes it seem like it's intended to be a temporary effect while raging. It also isn't clear whether you can command your beast to attack as a bonus action and then also give up your own attacks or not.
Dread Companion: I like this feature. It encourages engaging multiple foes.
Best Bond: Should this be beast bond? The hit point recovery probably shouldn't require a 0 hp companion (especially considering that you only get one turn to heal the companion before it dies and might already be in a rage).
Legendary Forme: Do you pick the transformation each time you rage? CR 7 might be a bit high. The CR 6-7 dragons for example have hit points in triple digits, AC 18, and breath weapons that are as high as 11d8, on top of their 80 ft fly speed.



I think it's a fun class. It's hard to predict balance because beasts, monstrosities, and dragons are not all created equal, even within the same CR.



Thanks so much for your feedback! I realize the language is pretty rough for the beast companion but I didn’t want to cut paste Beastmaster (understood to be bad) and I’ve actively disliked the conclave fixes they’ve attempted. I’ve made a Beastmaster that worked well enough but it requires too many specific choices to just be on par.

I’ve touched up the organization and some of the language in the companion description. The action mimic was to make room for the odd charger build or rounds you can’t take a bonus action but still want your companion to dodge. I’ve dumped it for clarity’s sake.

Battle Beast
I touched up the language so hopefully it’s clear that feature modifies Rage.
Also, I’m a strong believer in the “If it doesn’t say you can’t, then you should try” philosophy of rule interpretation. If it breaks, don’t do it. If it’s making things more fun, do it. So, by default yes, while Con bonus times while raging you could use a bonus action to have your companion use its action to attack and then take the attack action, sacrifice an attack to have the companion use its reaction to make a second attack. You can only do that if you’re not mounted but some companion choices might encourage it (giant poisonous snake). For most, swinging you’re big axe is probably the better choice.

Changed best bond to Bond of Shared Vigor, it’s more of a Ribbon ability that is fantastic in specific instances (like when you’re ambushed or you both drop but your roll a 20 on your death save and can immediately stand up, Rage, hop on your alive again mount and lay waste to foes.

Legendary Form... the idea is you sort of tie a story about a hero to your mount, and the world is full of stories. I think most people that play want to do something cool, and coolest isn’t always strongest. I want to ride a massive basilisk, I love their modern design, a kobold dexbarian probably wants Dragon every time.

I did touch up the mechanics though so it keeps its own Int, language, and Max HP. But as far as the big breath weapons or other abilities, it’s a level 14 capstone and costs exhaustion, a mechanic which explicitly makes the Frenzied Berserker considered one of the worst subclasses, behind Beastmaster for the race to bottom. So I’m okay with it.

[Breccia]

Paladin's only get a single use of channel divinity per rest. So, the last paragraph doesn't make a whole lore of sense here.

Excessively cautious wording because multiclassing. The idea of a cleric/paladin hybrid conjuring an army of Allies is interesting...but I don't really want them doing that multiple times per day, regardless of what oath, domain, items, feats, or class/subclasses exist that I don't happen to know about.


I don't really like the mechanic here were you can get your channel divinity back. The idea of calling them back is cool, but I would have calling them back do something else

I wanted the paladin to basically have a "permanent companion pet", able to use it and store it when needed, but as you pointed out above, one use/day doesn't give most paladins a lot of options here. One option was to make it a separate mechanic, but this would have given them Channel Divinity also, and I wasn't ready to do that out of fear they'd be overpowered. This way, the paladin can effectively "store" a wounded or useless Ally, sacrificing its use in the current fight in exchange for use in a later one. I blatantly ripped it off of FFX.

[Breccia]

Leomund's secret chest seems odd.

Summoning a personal armory, basically.



Back Your Partner: This functionally means that you always have your allies with you

As stated above, that's basically the point. The paladin is more than able to sacrifice them if need be, in a short term vs. long term strategy.


Maybe limit the usage to either the paladin or one veteran each round

I wasn't familiar with the "paladin nova" issue but the name seems very descriptive. I was hoping the maximum spell level each Ally could use was enough of a restriction, but I would be tempted to allow only one Ally to use a spell slot per round, even if the paladin has multiple. As for "the paladin can't use a spell slot if their Ally does" I'm not there yet, but I might be later.


Do the auras stack?

No.

I'd be tempted to let the damage reduction stack, but only if it didn't stack with any other damage reduction barring resistance. Again, I'm mostly concerned about other game mechanics I just don't know about. If, say, four character each somehow give -3 damage/hit to themselves and each other, they start shrugging off tarasque claws.

[MoleMage]

More feedback!


6 entries in and we finally got to that most iconic of summonable things, the demon!


Oath Spells: It might just be my personal preference, but I like to see spells that come from somewhere other than the PHB with a note about what book they're in. Something like Summon Lesser Demons (XgtE) is fine.
Channel Divinity: Find Familiar has a functionally permanent duration, while most channel divinity options are temporary or instantaneous. If your familiar is a fiend, does it count for the purposes of Rally Fiend? If not Rally Fiend doesn't do anything until you get 3rd level spells.
Aura of Warding: This is highly situational but also crazy strong if you are dealing with fiends. I don't know how to rate it.
Cunning Tongue: This is a pretty small feature for level 15. I would give all languages Tongue of the Sun and Moon style.
Calling in Favors: Seems fine. CR 6 might be a little weak for a capstone.



Overall, it's pretty bare-bones right now. Looking forward to seeing it with the descriptive portions added.



Summoning items! I'm glad it happened.


Dagger Bond: Wording seems okay. The damage die increase is a nice perk. The bonus action cost is perhaps a bit much.
Knife at the Ready: As written, any knife you throw loses its magical properties and disappears, even if you don't choose to draw a duplicate of it. It's clear by context what the intent is, but you might want to change that last sentence to be specific.
Hidden Cuts: Does Hidden Cuts also grant you the supernatural ability to know when someone has noticed you? Without that knowledge, you can't know to use the Reaction, but with it, you get a pretty significant perk for infiltration.
Primordial Blades: Half of these are duplicating cantrip riders, so I'll talk about the other half. Acid and Poison are fine as-is. The poisoned condition is one of the weaker conditions and lots of stuff is immune to it besides. Fire's effect does have a large damage potential but its caveat means that a proactive team of enemies could even take 0 damage from many strikes. Thunder is the issue for me. Since you aren't locked into an element until you use the action, there is no opportunity cost to having thunder available. And since it performs so strongly in its small situation, I think it needs to be toned down.
Symphony of Daggers: A fun capstone. As it's basically a 5th level spell 1/long rest it isn't out of line. The only thing it adds is that you can sneak attack with the animated objects and they count as +1 weapons. The former mostly compensates for not being able to use Cunning Action effectively during the Symphony and the latter just make this a little bit more than a simple 5th level spell.



Overall I think you're great for theme and delivery. Just a couple of places to tighten up wording or give intent clarifications, and Primordial Thunder needs to be tweaked.



Would you believe that my RL group suggested basically this but as a fighter archetype when I told them about the new contest? I think it works better as a sorcerer.


Friends on the Other Side: Interesting. I don't know of anything else which gives ritual casting of a spell that would otherwise be inaccessible. Augury and Speak with Dead should both be okay here though.
Memories of a Forgotten Past: Seems okay. At later levels this means 100% uptime, but expertise in History isn't enough to make a fuss about.
Boon of Legacies: I like this idea, but I'd like to see a couple more options in there (where's the Priest, or the Warrior?). The existing options mostly seem fine, though Dancer and Protector could do with a tiered improvement ("at level 14, the move speed bonus increases to 10 ft.").
Encouraged by History: 5 temporary HP isn't going to break the system if you let them last until the end of combat. Though as it's tied to all spell slots and a sorcerer has a lot of them at this point it's probably fine.
Calling the Ancestors: It's a nice capstone. It does give a lot of functionally third-level spells, but they're tied to a feature that costs the equivalent of a 2nd-level slot every time, so I'm inclined to think it's balanced.


I kind of like that this sorcerer gets so many of its benefits automatically for doing normal sorcerer stuff, as it lets you put more complexity into the most compelling feature. Overall I think you've stuck to the theme and to your own concept really well, and the class is mechanically sound.



Gotta love the idea of moving so fast you're two people. Classic trope, and an interesting way to make a summoning class.


Multilocation: A (very slightly) more complicated mirror image. 3 ki points for a 2nd level spell is about right.
Myriad Strike: Does using this feature count as taking the attack action for Martial Arts or Flurry of Blows? Is the duplicate's attack with Flurry of Blows in addition to your own two attacks? A bit of clarification of intent here would be nice. It also should specify how your duplicates that you have split off move (do they still mirror your own movement, but offset by a specific amount? Move on their own? Stand still unless you use Myriad Strike again?).
Displacement by Decoy: If you have duplicates in your space and duplicates that are split off when you swap spaces, do the ones attached to you come with you? Balance-wise it seems like they should (otherwise you can use this feature until the cows come home), but that also acts as a sort of tip-off to your actual location (which also might be a good thing).
Splinter Twin: How many ki points does the twin have, and if it shares your stats does that mean you have 1 shared HP pool? Other than this one question I think you've plugged all the holes pretty well in writing this feature. The portion about regaining ki points or hit dice seems redundant given that the twin is lost when you complete a rest (though I guess this would come up if your twin takes a rest but you don't). The specification about not leveling up also seems unnecessary.



I'm not much of a comics guy, but I do enjoy the Flash tv series, and I think your speed clones are pretty well-built in the structure of 5e mechanics. Once you add some clarifications about feature interaction you've got a strong entry here.



I've been a follower of the Pokemon games throughout, so this appeals to me on an additional basis.


Catching them All: Your first sentence needs a rewrite. It looks like you changed it halfway through but left half of the original sentence in there. I'm torn on the cost of materials portion of crafting the storage balls. On the one hand it means you don't have a hard limit on the number you can carry around with you, on the other 5e's wealth mechanics are a lot looser than previous editions (there are suggested wealth by level guidelines still but they are much less necessary to remain viable). I think it's low enough that you're probably okay, though early druids might be frustrated at the cost. I'm also not sure about the inclusion of aberrations and especially fey, as those creature types commonly have very powerful abilities that exceed their CR. 1/3rd level is probably fine though.
You're my Choice: Permadeath seems to be the most appropriate method for DnD. I'd limit it to one summoned at a time, but with only two wildshape uses it's probably okay.
Playing to Win: Basically Moon Druid healing but for your summons. Since the summon progression is based on Moon Druid's form progression this seems fitting.
Sacrificing for a Friend: I'd rather see the damage done in one big burst, if only because then instead of 1d8+CR, you could do CRd8 and I like dropping big handfuls of dice on the table. Addiing the extra resource to prevent just using this every turn seems about right.
Master Catcher: It seems like Catching them All already allowed the capture of unconscious-but-not-dead creatures (as they have fewer than 10 HP). You might want to clarify in Catching them All that unconscious creatures cannot be captured, if that was your intent (it would seem appropriate given the source).



Honestly, this subclass ran the risk of being absurdly complicated, but you made it seem as simple as normal wild shape, which is noteworthy by itself. Looking forward to it with the flavor added.


And as of my last refresh about an hour and a half ago, that's all the entries! The word of the day seems to be "clarification", which given how complicated summoning in a ttRPG can get, makes nothing but sense. Still, everyone's classes have such a unique take on the theme and I'm really enjoying that.

[Fnissalot]

Would you believe that my RL group suggested basically this but as a fighter archetype when I told them about the new contest? I think it works better as a sorcerer.


Friends on the Other Side: Interesting. I don't know of anything else which gives ritual casting of a spell that would otherwise be inaccessible. Augury and Speak with Dead should both be okay here though.
Memories of a Forgotten Past: Seems okay. At later levels this means 100% uptime, but expertise in History isn't enough to make a fuss about.
Boon of Legacies: I like this idea, but I'd like to see a couple more options in there (where's the Priest, or the Warrior?). The existing options mostly seem fine, though Dancer and Protector could do with a tiered improvement ("at level 14, the move speed bonus increases to 10 ft.").
Encouraged by History: 5 temporary HP isn't going to break the system if you let them last until the end of combat. Though as it's tied to all spell slots and a sorcerer has a lot of them at this point it's probably fine.
Calling the Ancestors: It's a nice capstone. It does give a lot of functionally third-level spells, but they're tied to a feature that costs the equivalent of a 2nd-level slot every time, so I'm inclined to think it's balanced.


I kind of like that this sorcerer gets so many of its benefits automatically for doing normal sorcerer stuff, as it lets you put more complexity into the most compelling feature. Overall I think you've stuck to the theme and to your own concept really well, and the class is mechanically sound.



Thanks!

I was thinking about adding a few more options for boon of legacies but I haven't had time to come up with ideas for them yet. And a single tiered step might be worth it for those two.

[Vogie]

More feedback!

Gotta love the idea of moving so fast you're two people. Classic trope, and an interesting way to make a summoning class.


Multilocation: A (very slightly) more complicated mirror image. 3 ki points for a 2nd level spell is about right.
Myriad Strike: Does using this feature count as taking the attack action for Martial Arts or Flurry of Blows? Is the duplicate's attack with Flurry of Blows in addition to your own two attacks? A bit of clarification of intent here would be nice. It also should specify how your duplicates that you have split off move (do they still mirror your own movement, but offset by a specific amount? Move on their own? Stand still unless you use Myriad Strike again?).
Displacement by Decoy: If you have duplicates in your space and duplicates that are split off when you swap spaces, do the ones attached to you come with you? Balance-wise it seems like they should (otherwise you can use this feature until the cows come home), but that also acts as a sort of tip-off to your actual location (which also might be a good thing).
Splinter Twin: How many ki points does the twin have, and if it shares your stats does that mean you have 1 shared HP pool? Other than this one question I think you've plugged all the holes pretty well in writing this feature. The portion about regaining ki points or hit dice seems redundant given that the twin is lost when you complete a rest (though I guess this would come up if your twin takes a rest but you don't). The specification about not leveling up also seems unnecessary.




For Myriad Strike - If you send a duplicate to attack, you aren't attacking yourself. You have to use an action to move it around, and it doesn't do anything unless you spend your action. This is upgraded later in the Twin, who CAN dodge and help by themselves (as a super-familiar!), and you can either Flurry of blows yourself, or use your bonus action to command the Twin to Attack with their FoB using their Bonus action.
For Displacement, yes, the dups in your space follow you. I upgraded the wording to be more clear.
For Splinter Twin, they'd have however many you'd have after spending 10 ki on it - so, provided you didn't do anything prior to creating a twin, both you and your twin would have 7, 8, 9, or 10 Ki points at levels 17, 18, 19, or 20, respectively. Most of the wording is lovingly stolen from the Simulacrum spell, which is why it's written so well :smallbiggrin:. You and your twin have separate ki pools and health pools, but identical stats provided you have no magic items that effects those stats (If you have Bracers of Defense and an AC of 22, your twin has "Bracers that look like Bracers of Defense" and an AC of 20). You were right about the resting rider - I didn't want each Gemini Monk to start each day with "I make a Twin, and immediately take a short rest" so they can run around with full ki points AND a twin with half or less. So, if either of you rest, the twin vanishes. Same with leveling - If you Level from 17-18 with an active twin, your Twin is still level 17.




Looks like a Monk subclass.... Make sure you mention that :) This is a pretty cool concept, but there are a few problematic features that need to be addressed. Still, it's a solid start.
Multilocation - What happens if the duplicate is hit with dispel magic or a fireball? Do they make a save or die? Also, this starts getting a little bit odd when the duplicates can move away from you. How do they target the duplicates who are 50 feet away?
Myriad Strike - Just add in there that the duplicates use your attack mod and damage and this should be good.
Displacement by Decoy - As a reaction to what?


I thought the "Way of" title was effectively monk enough, as that is how all of the monk archetypes are identified, but I can further clarify.

Multilocation has stats for the duplicate - A duplicate’s AC equals 8 + your Dexterity modifier + your Wisdom Modifier (basically, "Unarmored Defense minus 2") and they act not dissimilar to a minion from 4th edition - A duplicate can be destroyed only by an attack that hits it and ignores all other damage and effects. (including Fireball, running through Spike Growth, et cetera). The feature is basically Mirror image, but isn't a spell. So it'd be equally as dispel-magic-able as an enchantment wizards' Hypnotic Gaze.
Myriad Strike - Nice catch, wording updated.
Displacement - Just, like, a reaction, man. To LIFE. I updated the wording to follow the Shepherd Druid's Eagle Aura, so it triggers on an attack by whoever. That allows you to "react" to an ally's attack to BAMF over there, while still allowing you to BAMF away if someone is attacking you specifically.

[nickl_2000]

More feedback!


I've been a follower of the Pokemon games throughout, so this appeals to me on an additional basis.


Catching them All: Your first sentence needs a rewrite. It looks like you changed it halfway through but left half of the original sentence in there. I'm torn on the cost of materials portion of crafting the storage balls. On the one hand it means you don't have a hard limit on the number you can carry around with you, on the other 5e's wealth mechanics are a lot looser than previous editions (there are suggested wealth by level guidelines still but they are much less necessary to remain viable). I think it's low enough that you're probably okay, though early druids might be frustrated at the cost. I'm also not sure about the inclusion of aberrations and especially fey, as those creature types commonly have very powerful abilities that exceed their CR. 1/3rd level is probably fine though.
You're my Choice: Permadeath seems to be the most appropriate method for DnD. I'd limit it to one summoned at a time, but with only two wildshape uses it's probably okay.
Playing to Win: Basically Moon Druid healing but for your summons. Since the summon progression is based on Moon Druid's form progression this seems fitting.
Sacrificing for a Friend: I'd rather see the damage done in one big burst, if only because then instead of 1d8+CR, you could do CRd8 and I like dropping big handfuls of dice on the table. Addiing the extra resource to prevent just using this every turn seems about right.
Master Catcher: It seems like Catching them All already allowed the capture of unconscious-but-not-dead creatures (as they have fewer than 10 HP). You might want to clarify in Catching them All that unconscious creatures cannot be captured, if that was your intent (it would seem appropriate given the source).



Honestly, this subclass ran the risk of being absurdly complicated, but you made it seem as simple as normal wild shape, which is noteworthy by itself. Looking forward to it with the flavor added.




Thanks for the comments. I have tightened up some of the language and made some adjusts per your thoughts

Rewrote the first sentence, it was certainly a change in thought half way through.
I actually want to leave it fairly high in cost for low level druids. Having a bunch of options at extremely low level could be very overpowered. Once you get past the first tier it won't be an issue anymore
I was questioning abberations, monstrosities, and fey myself. I decided to ditch all three and make it beasts, constructs, plants, and elementals instead. Elementals are the only question from that list, I may drop them.
Added the limit, that was my intent but I just forgot it.
Made it burst damage CRd8 damage (min 1). Still a max use of 5 times per day and you loose you monster. Seemed okay in power for a 10th level ability.
You are exactly right here, I changed wording in Catching them all and this and added a little bit of flavor to Master Catcher.




I've also filled in the flavour text and made one small addition to Catching them all, where each Druid gets one monster for free at level 2 as a started Pokem.... umm I mean pocket monster.

[RickAsWritten]

More feedback!


Summoning items! I'm glad it happened.


Dagger Bond: Wording seems okay. The damage die increase is a nice perk. The bonus action cost is perhaps a bit much.
Knife at the Ready: As written, any knife you throw loses its magical properties and disappears, even if you don't choose to draw a duplicate of it. It's clear by context what the intent is, but you might want to change that last sentence to be specific.
Hidden Cuts: Does Hidden Cuts also grant you the supernatural ability to know when someone has noticed you? Without that knowledge, you can't know to use the Reaction, but with it, you get a pretty significant perk for infiltration.
Primordial Blades: Half of these are duplicating cantrip riders, so I'll talk about the other half. Acid and Poison are fine as-is. The poisoned condition is one of the weaker conditions and lots of stuff is immune to it besides. Fire's effect does have a large damage potential but its caveat means that a proactive team of enemies could even take 0 damage from many strikes. Thunder is the issue for me. Since you aren't locked into an element until you use the action, there is no opportunity cost to having thunder available. And since it performs so strongly in its small situation, I think it needs to be toned down.
Symphony of Daggers: A fun capstone. As it's basically a 5th level spell 1/long rest it isn't out of line. The only thing it adds is that you can sneak attack with the animated objects and they count as +1 weapons. The former mostly compensates for not being able to use Cunning Action effectively during the Symphony and the latter just make this a little bit more than a simple 5th level spell.



Overall I think you're great for theme and delivery. Just a couple of places to tighten up wording or give intent clarifications, and Primordial Thunder needs to be tweaked.



Made a few tweaks based on your and a couple other's feedback.

Fixed Knife at the Ready.

Reworked Hidden Cuts so that now it triggers when you take damage while hidden.

Changed Primordial Thunder to be knocked prone after a Con save.

Roguish Archetype – Bladecloak (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=24075571&postcount=8)

[Breccia]

Suggestion


Suggestion

Oath of the Legion: I clarified some wording about spell slots and auras overlapping, made Veteran Ally spellcasting a Bonus Action, made Veteran Ally Divine Smite a Bonus Action (but you can order multiple Veteran Allies to Divine Smite) and allowed the paladin to redirect damage from their Veteran Allies to themselves down to level 7. Besides clarity, this should make them less "paladin nova" and prolong the summoned construct's lifespan a bit.

[Fnissalot]

Added two spirit types to boon of legion and gave two others an improvement at level 14.

[SleeplessWriter]

Just modified the shadow knight. I removed mark of darkness and its 'charges' and reworked the rest of the subclass to work without it. I bumped up the base uses of shadow soldiers a little bit to compensate, capping out at eight shadow soldiers a short rest at 20th level, but you have to expend two of these uses to summon a shadow giant. So at 20th level you can summon a comfortable fighting force of four shadow soldiers and two shadow giants that takes a total of four actions to summon, and occasionally a dragon may be thrown in too. keep in mind, those are four actions where your fighter is not making attacks himself, and most fights don't last very long so by the time you and all your summons are all attacking at once the battle may already be over, unless you want to expend all your resources on a single fight to get them all out in two turns.

I also added a little text on shadowtouched that lets you use the shadow soldiers as expendable scouts.

The main reason I don't think having so many summons is overpowered is because of the action economy being so tight. Compared to Animate Dead your summons are pretty needy since it takes a bonus action every turn to command the shadow soldiers but animate dead lets you give its minions an order and then you just have to sit back for however long it takes them to do it. And while the possibility of summoning them in advance is real, plenty of battles won't be expected and those first few actions will be occupied to get your army going.
You also have to remember that most of the time you won't summon the full army all at once in case you get in another fight before your next short rest.
If you still think it's a problem I could probably just reduce all the summons' duration to put more pressure on the shadow knight to save up resources.


Also, I have a few more theme ideas.
A Bard Did It: subclasses with unusual heritages. Draconic druids, fey monks, and fiendish barbarians.

Kneel, Peasants!: evil overlords galore. Bards that cow the masses with grand displays of power, wizards who summon forth dark hordes from their ominous tower, and rogues who rule an empire of assassins and spies in the shadows.

[Phhase]

New Entry! Warlock Patron, Teratomarakh, Anarch Core. PEACH. I'm altogether uncertain how balanced the Seed of Chaos is. But I like the idea of hordes of exploding oozes and crazy chain reactions.

Hmm, theme ideas...how about isolation? Either you need some space around you, you isolate your enemies, or something altogether more metaphysical.

[nickl_2000]

PEACHING

Request, change the yellow color. Yellow against white is nearly impossible to read :smallbiggrin:

You are giving a lot of abilities at level 1, I think to much personally. Yes, warlocks have a tendency to be frontloaded in published material, but I think you have given to much. One of the two abilities (or a massively reduced seed of chaos with Chaos Curse, would be plenty to make this a fun character and not be overpowered). If you wanted to make the Seeds of chaos grow in power at 6th level instead of the lvl 6 ability that would be fitting to me. There are also a lot of random things going on here (random damage types, random elemental damage, random direction), I see no problems with all that, but I would put in charts so that the DM doesn't have to write them.



Seed of Chaos - At first I thought this was way, way overpowered, but then I read more carefully. 2 times per long rest and an action to activate does tamp down the power. There are a few things with this ability that could use a touch up though. The 15% chance of missing is a little wonky and could serve to slow down the game some. I would actually look at giving disadvantage instead to work within the normal confines of the game and avoid extra re-rolls.

Adding 1d4 to spells and attacks will make EB almost silly powerful later in the game. So, a well placed EB with hex will do 1d10+1d6+1d4+cha mod damage per hit and you could hit with 4 of them? That ends up being a lot of damage per hit (even crazier if you are a Sorlock and you also quicken EB during the same turn).

The bullet about HP instead of the spell slot is the most problematic. 1 HP for a cantrip is pointless since we aren't limited to the amount of cantrips we can use. Otherwise, you get WAY to many spells available to a warlock. With a good healing (especially one with Healing Spirit) you can drop spells at max level constantly and never think about it.

As for the last bullet, I don't see what it even does. They are infected with chaos energy, but what actually happens to them when they are? Looks like you define what this does later on. You should reference that here


Overall, I would look at dropping the blood cost to get extra spells bullet completely. Then, to make it more standard with most Warlock abilities make it 1 per short rest instead of 2 per long rest. Then a suggestion on what could make it more chaotic in general, have the Seed of Chaos last a number of round equal to a percentile dice rolled (so it would be anywhere from 1 round to 10 minutes). Sure that would be more work tracking for the player, but it would a fun fit into the theme.


The Chaos Curse - There is a lot going on here and the formatting needs to be cleaned up slightly. That being said... I would reduce the blindness to 1 round instead of two, especially since you can bag of rats these things. I see these things being super effective early on, but being almost useless later on in combat for anything other than the self destruct ability. In looking at the new Invocations, you are really getting into dangerous territory for the bag of rats being overpowered.


Devour Chaos - Fails bag of rats test completely since you are gain HP not temp HP. I would suggest dropping this completely and adding instead the abilities removed from Seed of Chaos here.


Portalwake - This would be a nightmare for a DM to deal with, but so, so fun in game as the PC :)


Anarch's Rage - Looks pretty cool, I don't see anything here that needs adjusted.



Overall thoughts here. There are definitely some balance issues that need to be tamed down and a few abilities that fail the bag of rats test and need to be touched up. Also, I feel like all the abilities are all combat based and there isn't much in the social or exploration tier of the game. The summoning of chaos and thriving on it is really cool. I like the theming significantly more than the Chaos Sorcerer since you get more control over it verses the DM calling for surges. It looks like in it's final form it would be an absolute blast to play!

[Breccia]

The 15% chance of missing is a little wonky and could serve to slow down the game some.

The bullet about HP instead of the spell slot is the most problematic. 1 HP for a cantrip is pointless since we aren't limited to the amount of cantrips we can use. Otherwise, you get WAY to many spells available to a warlock. With a good healing (especially one with Healing Spirit) you can drop spells at max level constantly and never think about it.

I am going to back both of these.

Again, I'm biased, but I despise flat miss chances. The D&D people got an unnecessarily nasty letter from me when a 3rd Edition wind walking party used the "80% invisible" with no qualifiers to sneak up on an ancient dragon in the middle of an open field. Unbreakable "XXX% something happens" mechanics have always rubbed me the wrong way. In 5th Edition, whether you are gaseous or incorporeal, you still take damage from magic weapons just fine. Force attacks routinely hit such targets, too. I don't see why this defense is more powerful than both.

And yes, the most dangerous thing about replacing spell slots with hit points is how easy it is to get hit points back. Since cure wounds is a 1d8 per spell level, it's a perpetual magic machine if the warlock multiclasses, since it's double the spell levels restored as used. And vampiric touch could be almost as bad.

Please reconsider. I hate to give advice...that's a lie, I love to give advice, but we're competing in the same contest. Might I suggest:
1) Replace the 15% miss chance with a Reaction, +3 AC vs a nonmagical attack.
2) When you cast a spell without a spell slot, you get XXX "ooze points" per spell level. If your "ooze points" equals your hit points, you are unconscious. If your "ooze points" exceeds your hit points, you're dying. "Ooze points" are cleared during a short rest.
or
2) When you cast a spell without a spell slot, your maximum hit points drop by XXX per spell level.

Cure wounds sets XXX to 4.5 on average.

[Phhase]

Request, change the yellow color. Yellow against white is nearly impossible to read :smallbiggrin:

You are giving a lot of abilities at level 1, I think to much personally. Yes, warlocks have a tendency to be frontloaded in published material, but I think you have given to much. One of the two abilities (or a massively reduced seed of chaos with Chaos Curse, would be plenty to make this a fun character and not be overpowered). If you wanted to make the Seeds of chaos grow in power at 6th level instead of the lvl 6 ability that would be fitting to me. There are also a lot of random things going on here (random damage types, random elemental damage, random direction), I see no problems with all that, but I would put in charts so that the DM doesn't have to write them.



Seed of Chaos - At first I thought this was way, way overpowered, but then I read more carefully. 2 times per long rest and an action to activate does tamp down the power. There are a few things with this ability that could use a touch up though. The 15% chance of missing is a little wonky and could serve to slow down the game some. I would actually look at giving disadvantage instead to work within the normal confines of the game and avoid extra re-rolls.

Adding 1d4 to spells and attacks will make EB almost silly powerful later in the game. So, a well placed EB with hex will do 1d10+1d6+1d4+cha mod damage per hit and you could hit with 4 of them? That ends up being a lot of damage per hit (even crazier if you are a Sorlock and you also quicken EB during the same turn).

The bullet about HP instead of the spell slot is the most problematic. 1 HP for a cantrip is pointless since we aren't limited to the amount of cantrips we can use. Otherwise, you get WAY to many spells available to a warlock. With a good healing (especially one with Healing Spirit) you can drop spells at max level constantly and never think about it.

As for the last bullet, I don't see what it even does. They are infected with chaos energy, but what actually happens to them when they are? Looks like you define what this does later on. You should reference that here


Overall, I would look at dropping the blood cost to get extra spells bullet completely. Then, to make it more standard with most Warlock abilities make it 1 per short rest instead of 2 per long rest. Then a suggestion on what could make it more chaotic in general, have the Seed of Chaos last a number of round equal to a percentile dice rolled (so it would be anywhere from 1 round to 10 minutes). Sure that would be more work tracking for the player, but it would a fun fit into the theme.


The Chaos Curse - There is a lot going on here and the formatting needs to be cleaned up slightly. That being said... I would reduce the blindness to 1 round instead of two, especially since you can bag of rats these things. I see these things being super effective early on, but being almost useless later on in combat for anything other than the self destruct ability. In looking at the new Invocations, you are really getting into dangerous territory for the bag of rats being overpowered.


Devour Chaos - Fails bag of rats test completely since you are gain HP not temp HP. I would suggest dropping this completely and adding instead the abilities removed from Seed of Chaos here.


Portalwake - This would be a nightmare for a DM to deal with, but so, so fun in game as the PC :)


Anarch's Rage - Looks pretty cool, I don't see anything here that needs adjusted.



Overall thoughts here. There are definitely some balance issues that need to be tamed down and a few abilities that fail the bag of rats test and need to be touched up. Also, I feel like all the abilities are all combat based and there isn't much in the social or exploration tier of the game. The summoning of chaos and thriving on it is really cool. I like the theming significantly more than the Chaos Sorcerer since you get more control over it verses the DM calling for surges. It looks like in it's final form it would be an absolute blast to play!

>Yellow
Yeah =P. Ok. Wish it wasn't so bright though.

>Overloaded Level 1, +1d4 Madness, 15%
Yeah I might have overdone it a little. The idea here was to create a spell-zerk mode. That, and give the caster the option to go full mad-with-power mode and burn away themselves in exchange for more spells. Consumed by power, as you will. What if the cost was triple the slot level? Remember, the all warlock slots are max level, so you have to pay more and more as you become more powerful. Perhaps if you pay health and a slot for every spellcast, but once out of slots, you can use slot level*3 instead? And yeah, the bit about cantrips is there so you don't just hold down the Eldritch Blast button (Though the current version is badly worded). Perhaps you pay just your current slot level in HP for cantrips?

An alternative is to make healing less effective on you while in spell-zerk mode. That way, there's a good reason to have two uses rather than one.

A second alternative is to pay max HP/short rest as the blood cost instead.

You're right about the % miss. You could roll a d6 and on a one the attack misses, but disadvantage is more elegant. I just cribbed that from the Teratomorph entry.

Yeah, yeah, magic missile, eldritch blast, etc. etc. You're right. That wasn't my intention, but I want spells to be more powerful as well as more costly in spell-zerk mode. I'll add a "Once per attack/spell" stipulation.

>Formatting of Chaos Curse
Yeah I'll move the last bullet to Chaos Curse.

>Bag of Rats
By "Bag of Rats" test, you mean carrying around a bag of rats to kill with EB in Seed mode to refresh your stock of Sludges, right? Be a bit more specific on how this abuse case works, I seem to have missed this memo. I should probably add that you can never have more than your maximum number of spell slots at any one time though. Also, I should note that fused Sludges still count as more than one Sludge for summon max purposes. Speaking of, thoughts on invocations anyone?

>Devour
What's the difference between THP and HP in this case? Honestly I was thinking about it being THP but blanked on why one would be different from the other. However, you have reminded me that there is some redundancy here. Devouring to gain hp is pretty similar to Devouring to get a spellslot, because you can convert HP into slots. I do like the idea of "Harvesting" the chaos energy, but you're right, it need tweaking. And perhaps Devour can only be used while Seed is active.

>Portalwake
Keheheheh. I may add the option to avoid this via Acrobatics check.

Yeah, I kinda leaned on the combat focus of Warlock here. I thought it fit more with the raw chaos theme. If you want to be chatty, there's Archfey and Great Old One. That said, that does make the Cha scaling a bit of an artifact. Not sure. I definitely wanted to break the "Did someone say 'Chaos?' GuESs iTs wIlD SurGE tIEm!!1" mold though.


I am going to back both of these.

Again, I'm biased, but I despise flat miss chances. The D&D people got an unnecessarily nasty letter from me when a 3rd Edition wind walking party used the "80% invisible" with no qualifiers to sneak up on an ancient dragon in the middle of an open field. Unbreakable "XXX% something happens" mechanics have always rubbed me the wrong way. In 5th Edition, whether you are gaseous or incorporeal, you still take damage from magic weapons just fine. Force attacks routinely hit such targets, too. I don't see why this defense is more powerful than both.

And yes, the most dangerous thing about replacing spell slots with hit points is how easy it is to get hit points back. Since cure wounds is a 1d8 per spell level, it's a perpetual magic machine if the warlock multiclasses, since it's double the spell levels restored as used. And vampiric touch could be almost as bad.

Please reconsider. I hate to give advice...that's a lie, I love to give advice, but we're competing in the same contest. Might I suggest:
1) Replace the 15% miss chance with a Reaction, +3 AC vs a nonmagical attack.
2) When you cast a spell without a spell slot, you get XXX "ooze points" per spell level. If your "ooze points" equals your hit points, you are unconscious. If your "ooze points" exceeds your hit points, you're dying. "Ooze points" are cleared during a short rest.
or
2) When you cast a spell without a spell slot, your maximum hit points drop by XXX per spell level.

Cure wounds sets XXX to 4.5 on average.

The hard % miss is a thing I stole directly from the Teratomorph statblock. The "reason" it sort of "Just works" is because the substance of the creature is so volatile, there's a chance the part of the creature being struck at simply doesn't exist at that instant. This, however, can be countered with Dimensional Anchor, a spell that I now indignantly realize doesn't exist in 5e (It should!). But yeah, I can sympathize with your hatred of hard % Nopes. That "80% invisible" thing just sounds like invisibility from Oblivion, which is stupid.

1) I see where you're coming from, but that just sounds like Shield. I prefer the idea of disadvantage from the previous poster. Gonna change the % though, for sure.
2) I'm considering making healing harder during Seed of Chaos, yeah. The Ooze points thing is a bit fiddly though.

[Phhase]

Updated Warlock Patron - Teratomarakh, Anarch Core

Added damage type table.

Seed of Chaos spell slot mechanics and miss chance changed. Added self-DOT. May still be too powerful? Not sure.

The Chaos Curse now only converts creatures of Small size or larger into Scintillant Sludges. Hopefully averts Bag of Rats.

Sludges can now break out of polymorph effects and glow in the dark. Blind duration lowered.

New Invocation: Clinging Chaos - Basically gives Sludges Improved Grab.

Devour Chaos completely changed. Now 1/short rest and lets you eat Sludges for a glass shield. Shield can be spent to empower an attack.

Doubled down on chaos potential of Portalwake, but made certain not to get too wild.

Thoughts?

[nickl_2000]

>Overloaded Level 1, +1d4 Madness, 15%
Yeah I might have overdone it a little. The idea here was to create a spell-zerk mode. That, and give the caster the option to go full mad-with-power mode and burn away themselves in exchange for more spells. Consumed by power, as you will. What if the cost was triple the slot level? Remember, the all warlock slots are max level, so you have to pay more and more as you become more powerful. Perhaps if you pay health and a slot for every spellcast, but once out of slots, you can use slot level*3 instead? And yeah, the bit about cantrips is there so you don't just hold down the Eldritch Blast button (Though the current version is badly worded). Perhaps you pay just your current slot level in HP for cantrips?

An alternative is to make healing less effective on you while in spell-zerk mode. That way, there's a good reason to have two uses rather than one.

A second alternative is to pay max HP/short rest as the blood cost instead.


In another comment it was suggested that you pay with Max HP instead of just straight HP. If you want this feature, this is the way I would go personally. Then there is a sacrifice that can really hurt the player instead of having it made completely moot by temporary HP and healing spells. If you do this make sure you define that the PC gets the max HP returned to normal leaves at the end of a long rest.



Yeah, yeah, magic missile, eldritch blast, etc. etc. You're right. That wasn't my intention, but I want spells to be more powerful as well as more costly in spell-zerk mode. I'll add a "Once per attack/spell" stipulation.


This should nerf it enough to make it perfectly fine.




>Bag of Rats
By "Bag of Rats" test, you mean carrying around a bag of rats to kill with EB in Seed mode to refresh your stock of Sludges, right? Be a bit more specific on how this abuse case works, I seem to have missed this memo. I should probably add that you can never have more than your maximum number of spell slots at any one time though. Also, I should note that fused Sludges still count as more than one Sludge for summon max purposes. Speaking of, thoughts on invocations anyone?

>Devour
What's the difference between THP and HP in this case? Honestly I was thinking about it being THP but blanked on why one would be different from the other. However, you have reminded me that there is some redundancy here. Devouring to gain hp is pretty similar to Devouring to get a spellslot, because you can convert HP into slots. I do like the idea of "Harvesting" the chaos energy, but you're right, it need tweaking. And perhaps Devour can only be used while Seed is active.



Yes, basically being able to activate a feature over and over again by simply carrying around a bag of rats. My concern was that you are encouraging a PC to find a way to kill off low CR beasts and other things to refresh the amount of sludges that are available. It's not as big of a deal when you are just talking about the sludges, but when you get the self destruct feature and the healing feature it becomes a problem.

When I was reading the bigger sludge piece, I was thinking that it only counted as 1 sludge when 2 combined into a bigger one. If it is considered 2 still it does alleviate some of my concerns there.

The difference between HP and THP is that THP doesn't stack. So, if I have 5 THP remaining and another source gives me 6 THP, I end up with a total of 6 THP (6 replacing 5) instead of them adding together. This is usually the way that 5e handles gain HP on death features over flat out healing HP.



For invocations:
Chaos Singularity - Make sure you say that these combined sludges still count as 2 sludges not one.
Soulburn - That really adds to the chaos feel of the PC and the subclass and is a cool ability. I am not sure why, but my gut says it should be a level 9 ability instead of 7. I really don't know why, especially since Maddening Hex is only a level 5 ability and is similar to this. So, feel free to ignore that thought.

These will add substantially to the character and the feel you are going for. I really like them.

[Phhase]

Vote thread when?

[nickl_2000]

Vote thread when?

Set to be posted today, but with the US holiday or may be tomorrow instead.

[MoleMage]

Vote thread when?

I normally build these in the morning but was traveling until very late last night. I'll post it this evening (look for it in the next couple hours).

EDIT: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?597027-D-amp-D-Subclass-Contest-X-Voting-Thread&p=24124476#post24124476

Voting thread is up! Come vote here!

[nickl_2000]

3. Circle of Pocket Monster- Yes, I gotta catch'em all. This would have been my top pick but I didn't fall in love with the mechanics.



I'm a little curious what you didn't like about the mechanics in it. What part did you find cludgy or not working? Sure it's to late for the contest, but I still would love to hear an opinion here or through PM to see if it needs touch ups.

[BerzerkerUnit]

I may be thinking of an earlier draft but does it state when the creature acts? Does it roll its own initiative? It follows your directions, does that cost an action?

It seems like you put a lot of effort into making it follow the Pokémon pattern of creature types, mechanics, etc, but that makes the level 10 feature feel wildly out of theme.

Just spit balling but a short list of “special attacks” for creature types like “Healing Spores” and “Elemental Breath” and “Mega Punch” would have been neat at level 10. Or something that lets the creature move differently... I don’t know.

I’m usually not too shy with critique but I stayed quiet this time around because I’ve written so many pet classes and subclasses I didn’t want every post to seem like “that sounds really cool, now gut it mechanically cuz I’d do it this way.”

In all honesty I was pretty impressed by several of these.

[nickl_2000]

I may be thinking of an earlier draft but does it state when the creature acts? Does it roll its own initiative? It follows your directions, does that cost an action?

It seems like you put a lot of effort into making it follow the Pokémon pattern of creature types, mechanics, etc, but that makes the level 10 feature feel wildly out of theme.

Just spit balling but a short list of “special attacks” for creature types like “Healing Spores” and “Elemental Breath” and “Mega Punch” would have been neat at level 10. Or something that lets the creature move differently... I don’t know.

I’m usually not too shy with critique but I stayed quiet this time around because I’ve written so many pet classes and subclasses I didn’t want every post to seem like “that sounds really cool, now gut it mechanically cuz I’d do it this way.”

In all honesty I was pretty impressed by several of these.

Thanks, I honestly do appreciate the comments. So many things are forgotten and not discovered until true playtesting.

[MoleMage]

Only a couple days left to vote, and it looks like Bladecloak Rogue by RickAsWritten has a commanding lead with 14 points. Way of the Gemini is solidly in second place with 10, and third place is a tie between Hive Conclave and Circle of the Pocket Monster.

We're still missing votes from sengmeng, Nicrosil, and Vogie from the contest participants, and of course anyone watching is welcome to vote as well. Our next theme looks like it will be Points for Everybody! though it's still possible for Keep it Simple to pull ahead.

EDIT: How do people feel about a contest theme where the requirement is that you base your entry off of a piece of homebrew (either making a subclass for a standard class that uses a homebrew system, creating a subclass for a homebrew base class, or building a subclass around a homebrew spell, item, or monster)? I'd probably call it Homebrew Helper.

[MoleMage]

Votes are tallied, and we have our winners!

In 3rd place, we have a tie between nickl_2000's Circle of the Pocket Monster and MoleMage's Hive Conclave both with 6 points! If you want to capture beasts and fey, or think what your archer really needs is a beehive grenade, we've got you covered.

In 2nd place, with 13 points, is Vogie's Way of the Gemini! For when one monk just isn't enough, make yourself a speed clone simulacrum.

And our winner with 16 points, RickAsWritten's Bladecloak Rogue! Throw some knives, then some more knives, and then yet more knives, and when you think you've thrown as many knives as you can, throw even more knives!

Thanks as always to everyone who entered! We had a lot of good entries this month it was fun to read.

Our next contest, with 11 points in voting will be Points For Everybody! Get your spell points, your ki points, your sorcery points, or make up entirely new points! Our runner-up for theme was Keep It Simple, Stupid so it will be automatically included in the next voting pool.

I've tallied our votes and we had a pretty commanding top two. Keep your eyes open for the next contest shortly!


EDIT: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?598203-D-amp-D-Subclass-Contest-XI-Points-For-Everybody!

[theVoidWatches]

Would it be too stupid for me to make a subclass where you win points by doing cool **** (score a crit, kill a monster, etc) and the number of points you've accumulated gives you bonuses?

[nickl_2000]

Would it be too stupid for me to make a subclass where you win points by doing cool **** (score a crit, kill a monster, etc) and the number of points you've accumulated gives you bonuses?

I wrote a subclass about a wizard who bounces spells off of people like a pinball and it won.

Go for it, it doesn't sound too stupid to me at all.


Congrats to all the winners!

[RickAsWritten]

I've tallied our votes and we had a pretty commanding top two. Keep your eyes open for the next contest shortly!


EDIT: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?598203-D-amp-D-Subclass-Contest-XI-Points-For-Everybody!

Thanks everyone! I love this positive, creative online community, and these contests are often the highlight of my month. I spend WAYYYYYY too much time brainstorming, writing, and hand-wringing about the contests.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Points...

Combo King Fighter or Shadowthief Rogue...

[theVoidWatches]

I'm gonna do the score-based subclass. It'll be themed around the idea of playing to the crowd.

I haven't decided yet whether it'll be a bard subclass (default bonus is probably adding your point total to bardic inspiration rolls), a rogue subclass (possibly bonus damage to sneak attacks?), a sorcerer subclass (bonuses for spells) or something else. Whatever the case, you'll get increasing passive bonuses as your score rises and will probably be able to spend them as well. The exact bonuses will depend on the base class, but the total amount you can have will probably be limited by your level (I'm thinking it'll be the same scaling as proficiency, but linked to class level instead of character level so avoid multiclassing shenanigans - it might also be just directly linked to class level, to allow for higher scores and more spending).

Possible bonuses: Gain temp HP equal to score every round, gain advantage on one attack per turn (would be a high-score thing, particularly for rogues), add your score to damage once per turn, increase your skill checks by your score, increase your AC by your score as a reaction.

Possible spend options: Spend to increase the damage of a spell or attack by 1d6 or 1d8 per score point spent, spend to increase your attack roll or spell save DC by 1 per score point spent, spend as though they were sorcery points, trade in a few to regain spent bardic inspiration.

[BerzerkerUnit]

So Combo King Fighter

I’m tempted to give them martial arts so you can make a boxer....

L3 Combinations-

Your successive attacks allow you to set up foes for powerful techniques. This is represented by Combo points. Each time you successfully hit a target you gain a combo point. Combo points remain until the end of your next turn. When you take the attack action you can spend combo points to execute a Finisher. Finishers are enhanced attacks you make with that action. This includes attacks you Ready.

If you miss with an attack roll while you have combo points, the combo points are lost.

Finishers are tied to types of weapons and are detailed below.

Iron Muscle/Iron Hide- beginning at level 3 you can base your unarmored ac off your strength or Con instead of Dex. You can wield a shield and keep this benefit.

Iron Fist- beginning at 3rd level your unarmed attacks deal 1d4 bludgeoning and can be based off your strength or Dex. Your unarmed attacks count as weapons for all two weapon fighting purposes. This increases to d6 at 5th, d8 at 11th, and d10, at 17th.

L7- Feint- as a bonus action you can make a deception check against a creature’s passive insight. On a success the creature has disadvantage on a save they make against the next Finisher you perform before the end of your turn.

L10 Rival School- you get a rival. The first time you lose combo points because you missed an attack, they are held in reserve. If you are reduced to 0 hit points your Rival appears in an empty space within 20 feet of you at the beginning of your next turn, deriding you for your weakness. Your Rival has identical attributes, skills and abilities to your own but may wield a different weapon. Your Rival will spend your turn moving to execute a Finisher against a target of your choosing using the Combo points you previously lost before announcing they’re the only one allowed to defeat you. At the end of your turn your Rival disappears and you regain 1 hp.

If you do not use this benefit, your Rival appears before your next long rest to trade blows, using the Finisher on you. If you are reduced to 0 hp they call you pathetic, if you survive the attack they give your respect, begrudgingly.

Your Rival will appear once and you must complete a long rest before they’ll appear again. If your Rival is somehow slain you lose the benefit of this feature until you have them restored to life or gain a level at which point you’re challenged by someone anew

L15- Eye of the Champion- when you are hit by a melee Attack you can use your reaction to determine the attacker’s Attack bonus, Current hit points, if they have another form of attack you haven’t seen (but not what it is), and alignment.

L18- Gigasmash- you can have a Finisher deal max damage. You must complete a short rest before doing it again.

Thoughts about the level 7, 10, and 15 features? I’ll have some Finishers up soon.

Finishers
Save DC is Str or Dex based
Combo Point Costs
Weak- 1
Medium- 2
Strong- 3
Finishers do not generate combo points

Polearms. (spear, staff, trident included)
Weak- Skewer: your thrust penetrates the target dealing a grisly injury when removed. +Proficiency Necrotic damage
Medium- Wide sweep: sweep weapon in 10ft cone each creature hit must succeed on a Dex Save or be knocked prone
Strong- Driving thrust: move up to your speed in a straight line. All foes in path must make a save

Heavy weapons (gAxe, gSword, maul, gClub)
Weak-
Medium- Iron Tornado: make an Attack against each hostile creature in reach, creeps you hit need to make a strength save or be pushed 10 feet.
Strong- Earth Shattering Blow- on a hit you generate a 10 ft radius sphere shockwave centered on your target. The target and creatures other than you in area make a Str save or take 3d8 Thunder damage and be knocked prone.

Blades (one handed swords and daggers)
Weak- Signature Slash: this Finisher requires no attack roll. It deals your Proficiency bonus in slashing damage. you carve an initial into the garb or flesh of your foe and the target has disadvantage on attacks against creatures other than you until the beginning of your next turn.
Medium- Devil’s Elbow: a successful attack stabs the target in the foot reducing their speed to 0 until the end of your next turn. If you release your weapon, you can immediately make an unarmed attack against the target.
Strong-

Bludgeons (hammers, club, and mace)
Weak- Bouncing Bludgeon, your Weapon gains a range of 15/30 and returns to your hand after the attack.
Medium-
Strong-

Axes (hand and battle and great)
Weak- haft hooking swipe- on a hit the target must succeed on a Str save or lose a held object which falls to the ground in your space.

Medium- Buried Axe- on a hit you can release the weapon leaving it buried in the target. The target can use its action to remove the weapon dealing the weapon’s damage dice as Necrotic damage. A successful Dex Save vs your Finisher DC avoids this damage. If the target does not remove the weapon, their speed is halved and they suffer your Proficiency bonus in Necrotic damage for each action they take until it’s removed.

Strong- Skull Splitter: on a hit the target must make a con save or suffer a random effect. These effects end of Heal, Regeneration, or a Wish are used.
1 Lose an Eye- disadvantage on perception or blind if having only one eye
2 lose a nose- disadvantage on social rolls and smell perception
3 lose all teeth- disadvantage on social rolls and bite attacks deal half damage.
4 Brain Damage- the target rolls a d6 and subtracts the result from all attacks and ability rolls until they complete a long rest.

Ranged (all)
Weak-
Medium-
Strong-

Whip, Chain, Flail, Rope, and Net...
This assumes the rope or net is being used as an improvised weapon.

Weak- Thunderous Crack- the distracting crack and snap of your weapon forces enemies within reach to tread carefully. This Finisher requires no attack. Until the beginning of your next turn creatures that move within your reach without disengaging take your Proficiency bonus in slashing and thunder damage.

Medium- Choking Hazard- on a hit the target is grappled. Until the grapple ends or the end of your next turn whichever comes first, the target has disadvantage on concentration saves and must make a concentration save vs your Finisher DC to cast a spell with verbal components.

Strong- Hog Tie- on a hit the target is grappled. If your release your weapon you can make an immediate shove attempt against the target. On a success the target is knocked prone and restrained. On their turn they can use an action to make a strength or Dex check against your Finisher DC to escape.


Fists of Brutality
The Fist of Brutality finishers are compatible with spiked gauntlets, brass knuckles, and other brawling aids.
Weak- Furious Strikes: a series of light rapid blows become unavoidable, less concerned with dealing damage than cornering your target. This Finisher requires no attack roll. It deals your Proficiency bonus in bludgeoning damage and the target’s speed is halved until the beginning of your next turn.

Medium- Northern Cross: on a hit this savage blow places an enemy on their heels and unprepared for allied attacks. Until the beginning of your next turn, damage rolls against the target gain a bonus equal to your Proficiency bonus.

Strong- Ragdoll: on a hit the target is grappled, until this grapple ends or the end of your next turn, whichever comes first) you can wield the target as a weapon you are proficient in. The target deals 1d8+Str damage if medium, 2d8 if large, 4d8 if huge. On a hit both the grappled creature and target take the damage of the attack. You must be able to lift the target to use this benefit.

[Fnissalot]

So I spent way to much time on work today to write up my take on the way of the four elements. I think it currently is in a weird space. It is partially very different from the original class but at the same time it might be to close and just getting a lot of options for burning points on spells might not be so fun (and feels like a cheap implementation of the class).

The central mechanic of the subclass is the loops of the elemental bands. You have 5 pools of points arranged in two different loops. Certain actions push points around these pools. You will push points (preferably tokens as it is easier to visualize) around this mapping of your elemental bands and based on where the points currently lie, you have access to different powers. As it is done right now, you will always have at least one point left since you need to have as many points that you can push in addition to the amount that you spend. Through this, you will always be able to get the a small bonus just by pushing the last point around the bands. Hopefully that prevents the class from feeling useless.

I think the core mechanic of this seems interesting, but when I added the higher level powers to the sub-class, it just started to feel the same as the original class I was trying to work away from with this.

[BerzerkerUnit]

So I spent way to much time on work today to write up my take on the way of the four elements. I think it currently is in a weird space. It is partially very different from the original class but at the same time it might be to close and just getting a lot of options for burning points on spells might not be so fun (and feels like a cheap implementation of the class).

The central mechanic of the subclass is the loops of the elemental bands. You have 5 pools of points arranged in two different loops. Certain actions push points around these pools. You will push points (preferably tokens as it is easier to visualize) around this mapping of your elemental bands and based on where the points currently lie, you have access to different powers. As it is done right now, you will always have at least one point left since you need to have as many points that you can push in addition to the amount that you spend. Through this, you will always be able to get the a small bonus just by pushing the last point around the bands. Hopefully that prevents the class from feeling useless.

I think the core mechanic of this seems interesting, but when I added the higher level powers to the sub-class, it just started to feel the same as the original class I was trying to work away from with this.

Sounds interesting... I don’t know if it would be out of contest theme to make this your Ki and have passive Elemental powers or just access to X powers for investing (not spending) Ki in the rings.

[Nicrosil]

First draft of the Spellbound barbarian is up! I still need to write up the metasurge abilities (and find a better word for it besides metasurge...). It's pretty much just normal metamagic, so there'll be stuff that enhances the range of the blast, gives enemies disadvantage on their saves, excluding specific creatures, etc. Maybe some more unique stuff as well, like designating creatures that will gain HP equal to the dice roll, or a short distance teleport after you use the surge, like a rocket jump.

I'm not sure how to scale how many Surge Points you get though. Kind of following the precedent that third casters like the Eldritch Knight, you could get more points at 7th, 13th, and 19th level. I could also scale it like a cantrip, with bonuses at 5th, 11th, and 17th level. The Ancestral Guardian path 6th level feature gets buffed at 10th and 14th level, while the Storm Herald's 3rd level feature strangely scales every 5 levels...

I'm hesitant on the 6th and 14th level features. Just giving identify and detect magic at 6th level feels kind of weak, but counterspell feels pretty powerful, even if it does end your rage prematurely. At the same time, the 14th level ability is just kind of... boring...

Also

Paladin with photosynthesis
I am very curious about this.

[sengmeng]

Well, I made the Great Dragon as a warlock patron. Basically you're a warlock with a smattering of sorcerer. It does everything I want it to do, but it's kind of... light.

[Fnissalot]

Nice that people have some ideas up and running already.

A few first initial comments.

BerzerkerUnit, rival might be the funniest feature I have seen written in a long time. It feels so much anime or something. I could see Gary in Pokemon just doing this to screw with you.

Nicrosil, at 20th level barbarians have unlimited rages. Is there another limit on counterspell or is it fine that they can cast it on every turn? I would argue that level 20 is somewhat broken for most classes balancewise so it might not matter but it is worth a thought.

Sengmeng, are you keeping the metamagic list as it is or will you add or modify it? Only being able to use 2 metamagic options that cost 3 per long rest at level 20 is rather... limiting? It might not hurt to give them a cheaper list(maybe other options) or increase how many points they gain. That said, warlock subclasses usually don't add too much to the class so it might be fine as is.

[nickl_2000]

First draft of the Barbarian Path of the Bloodied is on here and ready to be ripped apart. I will try and get some initial comments out a little later today.

[sleepyhead]

Oath of Light is up. So.. yeah.

[nickl_2000]

Arcane Surge
"Creatures within 5 feet must..." small and piddly thing, but 5 feet of what?
Otherwise this is effectively a barbarian cantrip. It looks good to me as it is.

Surge Points - I'm assuming this is a level 3 ability. May want to mention that.
Someone else mentioned that at level 20 you get unlimited surges. This may be an issue that you need to adjust for.
Will watch for the meta surges as they come

Mystic Nature
Again an possible issue with level 20 infinite rages.
Do detect magic and identify require material components? Sometimes innate casting like this bypasses it, so you should be specific.

Channeled Strike - Very similar to the EK ability. Seems like a very good fit to me.

Reactive Surge - Is this any damage or melee attacks only? So far it is any damage, which seems fine, but I just wanted you to think about it as you get further along in development.


This subclass has potential, but it definitely needs something still. However, I feel like that need will be filled once you fill in the metasurges.





Expanded Spell List - 5th level Hold Monster is already on the warlock spell list. Since you aren't automatically adding it to the list and giving them an expanded set of choices you should replace this one.

Honestly this appears to be the Draconic Bloodline on a Warlock. I don't see whole lot different here between this and the sorcerer bloodline (other than more limited sorcerery points). I would love to see more variety and differences between the two subclasses to differentiate them more.







Combo Points - Do you get all the finishers immediately? Or do you get only some of the at certain points? Or do you pick ones like invocations? I think it's all of them immediately, but I wouldn't mind see it spelled out for clarity.

Iron Muscle/Iron Hide - It would be much clearer here if you just gave a new calculation for AC. When unarmored your AC can be 10 + strength mod or 10 + constitution mod.

Iron Fist - Personal pet peeve on this one that you are making the damage progression the same as a monk. This is a fighter, it gets 4 attacks all the time at high levels and can bonus action second hand attack. Give them a slower damage progression and lower overall damage to let the monk be a monk.

Feint - Seems fine right now in my first read through where I haven't gotten to finishers yet.

Eye of the Champion - The mechanics around this seem fine, the RP implications are a little bit odd. How, did your rival get in the dragon cave or extra dimension?

Eye of the Champion - I like this, a good use of a reaction and a useful ability in combat albeit one that lets you use strategy rather than adding direct damage.

Gigasmash - Seem fine to me.


You need to define how to calculate the save DC on many of the finishers.

Polearm
Medium - Technically you hit someone with this based on wording. It could be argued that you get a combo point for whoever you hit for this (at a 10 ft radius that could be a lot of people).
Strong - What direction are they moved?

Heavy weapons
Medium - Same issues as medium polearm

Blades
Strong - Same issue of gaining more points from hits.

Bludgeons
Strong - This one seems like to much. Unconscious is a brutal, brutal state. They are knocked out of combat for a round, attacks are at an advantage, all hits on them are criticals, and they lose concentration on spell.

Axes
Weak - This is one of the battlemasters big schticks that only they can do and you can either do it almost every round or every other round. Seems like it takes away from them.

Ranged
Medium - Wow, this one seems really broken from the chance of gaining more combo points. Can you imagine at level 20? You could technically unleash 24 attacks in a single round if you have 6 different targets.
Heavy- Whoa, 1d4 levels of exhaustion? One hit and a lucky roll gives disadvantage on ability checks, speed reduced by half, disadvantage on attack rolls and saving throws, and HP Max reduced by half. 1 hit. Not only that but there is no save against it at all. 1 level each time with a save to prevent it (and a roll to hit) seems sufficient to me.

Whip, chain, et al
Medium - Probably should have a rider here that you can't use the weapon to make an attack again until the grapple has n

Fists
Strong - This is flat out fun and needs to be allowed more. Although technically a medium sized PC can't grapple a huge critter without enlarge


Overall I think you need to have a caveat on the finishers that when you hit with a finish it does not give you additional combo points. That alone would make a big different in balance.





Gifts from the Light - So technical from your wording, at 7th level I can spend a long rest in the light and then trade it in for a 5th level spell slot. Probably should have something in here that says you can only gain slots that you have access to.

Sun Burst - It's a little bit odd that you have to spend more Luminous points as you level up and don't really gain much more out of it. It seems like it would be better to set an amount of stored light that this takes (likely 3 since you get it at level 3) and then give it additional damage when you add more luminous points to it.

Hurling Smite - This is a pretty specific feature and wouldn't end up being used all the time. It seems like it would be better to have a cost to hurl a ball, which does a certainly amount of damage. Then allow the Paladin to use Divine Smite or a smite spell on hit. It would simplify the feature some and would make it usable more often as well.

Burning aura - What is affected by the heat metal spell? Armor, weapons? Do you choose as the paladin or is it all metal on the body? What happens in rounds after the first (heat metal requires a bonus action after the first round to do more damage), but you could be affecting 5 people at the same time.

Beacon of Light - Needs a cannot be done until you finish a long rest afterwards.
Blind affect should have an additional save each round.
This is pretty powerful, even for a capstone. I wouldn't mind seeing 1 of the bullet points dropped off to balance it a tiny bit.

[BerzerkerUnit]

[





Combo Points - Do you get all the finishers immediately? Or do you get only some of the at certain points? Or do you pick ones like invocations? I think it's all of them immediately, but I wouldn't mind see it spelled out for clarity.

Iron Muscle/Iron Hide - It would be much clearer here if you just gave a new calculation for AC. When unarmored your AC can be 10 + strength mod or 10 + constitution mod.

Iron Fist - Personal pet peeve on this one that you are making the damage progression the same as a monk. This is a fighter, it gets 4 attacks all the time at high levels and can bonus action second hand attack. Give them a slower damage progression and lower overall damage to let the monk be a monk.

Feint - Seems fine right now in my first read through where I haven't gotten to finishers yet.

Eye of the Champion - The mechanics around this seem fine, the RP implications are a little bit odd. How, did your rival get in the dragon cave or extra dimension?

Eye of the Champion - I like this, a good use of a reaction and a useful ability in combat albeit one that lets you use strategy rather than adding direct damage.

Gigasmash - Seem fine to me.


You need to define how to calculate the save DC on many of the finishers.

Polearm
Medium - Technically you hit someone with this based on wording. It could be argued that you get a combo point for whoever you hit for this (at a 10 ft radius that could be a lot of people).
Strong - What direction are they moved?

Heavy weapons
Medium - Same issues as medium polearm

Blades
Strong - Same issue of gaining more points from hits.

Bludgeons
Strong - This one seems like to much. Unconscious is a brutal, brutal state. They are knocked out of combat for a round, attacks are at an advantage, all hits on them are criticals, and they lose concentration on spell.

Axes
Weak - This is one of the battlemasters big schticks that only they can do and you can either do it almost every round or every other round. Seems like it takes away from them.

Ranged
Medium - Wow, this one seems really broken from the chance of gaining more combo points. Can you imagine at level 20? You could technically unleash 24 attacks in a single round if you have 6 different targets.
Heavy- Whoa, 1d4 levels of exhaustion? One hit and a lucky roll gives disadvantage on ability checks, speed reduced by half, disadvantage on attack rolls and saving throws, and HP Max reduced by half. 1 hit. Not only that but there is no save against it at all. 1 level each time with a save to prevent it (and a roll to hit) seems sufficient to me.

Whip, chain, et al
Medium - Probably should have a rider here that you can't use the weapon to make an attack again until the grapple has n

Fists
Strong - This is flat out fun and needs to be allowed more. Although technically a medium sized PC can't grapple a huge critter without enlarge


Overall I think you need to have a caveat on the finishers that when you hit with a finish it does not give you additional combo points. That alone would make a big different in balance.



Thanks for your feed back. I had already gone back and added that Finishers don’t generate combo points.

I’ll try to address each point, but like you said, knowing a Finisher doesn’t grant combo points manages a lot. Additionally, when evaluating the Strong Finishers it’s important to remember you need 3 consecutive successful hits to build to them. That means it will typically take at least 2 turns to execute one and every attack is also a chance to reset your points to 0. They’re very good because it’s a gamble and sacrifice to wait and use them.

Wording overall definitely needs a pass, this is mostly brainstorming notes.

Unarmed damage: it irks me a bit as well, but the fighter does not get innate magic unarmed attacks and Monks are reliably attacking 4x/Round (if that’s what they want to focus on) at level 5 while fighters can do it for 1 round unless twf which is understood to be suboptimal without particular weapons. So in an effort to make doing it more viable without the Monk’s bells/whistles I felt the damage had to be up to par.

Rivals showing up out of nowhere is mechanically fine but I’d like to think a DM would get creative.

Polearm-np without combo points from finishers, Driving thrust moves them to the nearest empty space out of the path.

Blades- np without combo points from finishers

Hvy Wpns- np without combo points from finishers

Bludgeons- I added that damage wakes the target up, so you’ll only get one critical. It’s already resisted by a save. And I’ve addressed the major obstacle to 3 pt finishers above.

Axes- according to the DMG anyone can disarm and I don’t see any reason the Battlemaster should have a monopoly on doing it with an attack. They get to add damage as well and don’t need to successfully hit something first.

Ranged-
Medium- not sure where you’re getting your math. At most you can attack 6 targets and deal 6 damage (maybe more if you have a ton of poison and something to poison the arrows for you or enough prep time). It’s like an upcast magic missile. If you had a stellar action surge the previous round and were a crossbow master... 9 attacks generates 9 points, assume you succeeded in an AOO, you have 10 combo points At the start of your next turn. You could execute 5 of these to deal 30 damage to 6 targets or 30 damage to 1 target with no roll, or 6 damage to 30 targets. Doesn’t seem exceptional and it required 10 consecutive attacks that never missed Beforehand.

strong- honestly I wanted to see if anyone would catch it. Yes, it should be 1 level, but there won’t be a save since you can’t reliably generate the attack meaning until level 20 you’ll likely get 2 of these off per combat max until the lofty levels of T4.

Ropes/Whips- I’ll add that attacks with the weapon can only target the grappled creature until the grapple ends.

Fists- I think the specific effect of this feature would trump the general rule about grappling, on a hit the target is grappled, that’s how I’ve always run it for creatures like giant frogs and such. So the only requirement is prodigious strength, so a Str focused Goliath or someone with Enhance Ability Str might be able to do it.

[sengmeng]

[SPOILER=Otherworldly Patron: the Great Dragon]

Expanded Spell List - 5th level Hold Monster is already on the warlock spell list. Since you aren't automatically adding it to the list and giving them an expanded set of choices you should replace this one.

Honestly this appears to be the Draconic Bloodline on a Warlock. I don't see whole lot different here between this and the sorcerer bloodline (other than more limited sorcerery points). I would love to see more variety and differences between the two subclasses to differentiate them more.

Yeah, I'll have to revisit the expanded spell list.

It is exactly the draconic bloodline on a warlock in most ways, as that is the concept I was going for. This is supposed to be someone who could have just as easily been a sorcerer, but decided to bargain for power with their ancestor instead of developing it themselves. However, I am thinking of adding a breath weapon as a pact boon, and several invocations that are only available to this warlock, and maybr even a metamagic option just for them as well. Does that sound like enough to separate them, in your opinion?

[nickl_2000]

Yeah, I'll have to revisit the expanded spell list.

It is exactly the draconic bloodline on a warlock in most ways, as that is the concept I was going for. This is supposed to be someone who could have just as easily been a sorcerer, but decided to bargain for power with their ancestor instead of developing it themselves. However, I am thinking of adding a breath weapon as a pact boon, and several invocations that are only available to this warlock, and maybr even a metamagic option just for them as well. Does that sound like enough to separate them, in your opinion?

Yes it should do enough to make the difference mechanically.

[nickl_2000]

Axes- according to the DMG anyone can disarm and I don’t see any reason the Battlemaster should have a monopoly on doing it with an attack. They get to add damage as well and don’t need to successfully hit something first.


Technically this is an alternate rule in the DMG, so it isn't part of the standard. However your point is made. Fixing the combo points from finishers issue helps massively with balance here. That solves 90% of my balance and worries :smallbiggrin:

[theVoidWatches]

It may be overcomplicated, but I just posted the first draft of the College of Plautus. Some of the higher-score bonuses are pretty strong, but I don't see people reaching them easily (given that very few people play out full adventuring days), so I'm okay with it.

Inspired Words (+bard level to damage of a bard cantrip 1/turn) is pretty strong, but even at level 20 your max damage with Vicious Mockery is only 36 (and an average of 30), which is pretty in line with cantrips like Firebolt (max damage 40, average 22). Even if you grab a better cantrip with Magical Secrets (your best damage coming from a d12 cantrip, getting you a max of 68 and an average of 46), that's only slightly better than a Warlock's Eldritch Blast (max damage 60, average 42 - if all beams hit) and just about the average Great Weapon Fighter's damage (max of 68 again, an average of 54 - if all attacks hit) if they're not using Great Weapon Master. Or a rogue, at that level, will be doing a max of 66 and an average of 38 damage.
In other words, it makes you a good damage dealer, or a great one if you want to spend one of your limited Magical Secrets on a better cantrip, but not to a ridiculous degree or one that other classes can't achieve.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Guilder Fighter is interesting. I think a “Guild Bag” functioning as a linked Bag of Holding that you can send requests through and retrieve items from (like the Artificer linked pouches). Have minor items appear after a short rest and major ones after a long with some kind of Overspend priority shipping available 1/day.

Couple points. The term DKP isn’t universal, I recommend something like Credit, Legend, Measure of Standing, etc.

Being able to order higher tier magic items is very potent, but you may want to create lists to eliminate some of the more problematic items.

A system for selling back items or working the whole thing to be about items being “on loan” sonit can also fit in to lower magic settings.

Lastly, there’s no such thing as “full round action” anymore. Since the majority of Bonus actions are conditional I’d recommend just making it an action and reducing the cost of potions and alchemy items to half market.

[Phhase]

Oath of Light is up. So.. yeah.

Wow. That's pretty funny, actually.

Because, wouldn't you know it? I just posted the first draft of Oath of the Enshaedn (Dark). It's got lots of adapted spells, which I hope is ok and not too wack, but I think it's pretty cool. Thoughts, everyone?

Also, Nickl, Path of the Bloodied sounds kinda familiar (;. Cool though. Other than tightening up some of the wording, the only issue I have is with the Battlefield Healer bit. While I totally get why it's there, and it's super practical, it's also a little odd. You spend a whole level gaining no combat effectiveness when going from 5 to 6, which seems a bit off. While it sounds like a good idea, I'm not really sure there's enough mechanical space for it. Dunno, your call.

Also, I'm trying to imagine a frothing barbarian also being a super skilled brain surgeon when not enraged, it's pretty funny.

[nickl_2000]

Also, Nickl, Path of the Bloodied sounds kinda familiar (;. Cool though.


Looking back there are definitely a few similarities to your Circle of Blood, but it should be different enough to be pretty distinct (outside of some of the flavouring). I didn't mean to steal though! Honestly my inspiration more came from the Bloodwrath of the Badgers in the Redwall series that I read when I was much younger.




Other than tightening up some of the wording, the only issue I have is with the Battlefield Healer bit. While I totally get why it's there, and it's super practical, it's also a little odd. You spend a whole level gaining no combat effectiveness when going from 5 to 6, which seems a bit off. While it sounds like a good idea, I'm not really sure there's enough mechanical space for it. Dunno, your call.

Also, I'm trying to imagine a frothing barbarian also being a super skilled brain surgeon when not enraged, it's pretty funny.

Ya, since it's a first draft still there is lots of clean up of wording that I need. When I am typing my brain and fingers don't always work in sync, causing some things to come out very odd.

I will say it isn't unheard of for a Barbarian to only get out of combat utility at level 6. Totem gets carrying capacity/better eyesight/better stealth, all of those are mostly combat adjacent rather than directly combat related. I will look at the level 6 ability and adjust it around, although I really like giving barbarians things to do outside of combat from a subclass. I think its something missing in the class in general.

Either way, I will adjust the Blood Rage Points so you get something at level 6, that way you at least get a feel of being able to be more powerful in combat.


Also between the Hulk and Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde I think we have enough pop culture references of the intelligent human who turns into a frothing monster that I can get away with it :)

[sleepyhead]

Should I make Burning aura feature more like the Barbarians Path of storm heralds effect.

Desert. When this effect is activated, all other creatures in your aura take 2 fire damage each. The damage increases when you reach certain levels in this class, increasing to 3 at 5th level, 4 at 10th level, 5 at 15th level, and 6 at 20th level.

Maybe make damage more equal to luminous points spent?


Sun Burst - It's a little bit odd that you have to spend more Luminous points as you level up and don't really gain much more out of it. It seems like it would be better to set an amount of stored light that this takes (likely 3 since you get it at level 3) and then give it additional damage when you add more luminous points to it.
Where does it say that it requires more Luminous points at higher levels?

[nickl_2000]

Touched up Barbarian Path of the Bloodied per comments from Phhase. As a side note, has anyone else found this theme particularly difficult?



I like the idea of a Bard that gains more power as he gains renown with people. It's a good way to run with this contest.

Awe Points - Is that when you roll a 20 on the die or you get a 20 or more on the results of the skill check. Based on how powerful the Awe Point abilities are, I'm going to guess that it's an actual roll of a 20 on the die. Other than that this seems pretty cool. It may be to powerful, but I'm not willing to run the numbers on how often you would roll a 20 on a skill check (and I know that a Bard isn't laying out massive damage

Limited Energy - You forgot to mention the level here.
Dance Around Danger - Missing a cost here.


My guts says that while I was playing this class, I wouldn't be using the limited Energy all that often since the awe point passive abilities are so powerful. It would likely be "get to the top of my range as quickly as possible, then use 1. Repeat"






There are several cases where you refer to using shade that is more than 5, but is appears that you can only get shade equal to your charisma modifier. Am I reading something wrong here?



Nightblessed - I was bothered seeing this as a level 3 feature at first, since Paladin's typically only get channel divinity at level 3. But in looking at it it doesn't seem to increase power overall, so sure why not.
Does Magical Darkvision all you to see through magical darkness? What is magical darkvision? Can it be suppressed via dispel magic?

Nightnail - You can draw in 2 creatures with this. If you use smite do you smite both creatures? If you do, does it use 1 slot or 2? The save they make, what is the type of save they make? Also, I don't foresee anyone successfully making the save vs the total damage. That can get pretty high with a paladin smiting.

Together in Dark - Per above, does this let you see through magical darkness? Also, what happens to an ally that has night vision?

We are the Knight - This is really situational for a 20th level capstone. The overall power seems fine, but generally I see Paladin 20th level abilities as one you can easily use every day. Still, it's a capstone and 99% of people will never see it.

This is by far the most gritty and dark Paladin I've seen. It would be a blast to roleplay.





You need to define what a Common, Uncommon, Rare, Very Rare, and Legendary item is. After reading all the way through, I'm assuming that this means a magical item. What is the cost of a magical item? 5e doesn't define the cost of an item like 3.5e did, so I have no idea how much the item I want to buy will cost.


Recruit
Others have said it but I will agree, I have no idea what DKP means. What is considered a common item (everything non-magical in the PHB tables)?
"twice the normal coast" just a small typo.

I'm so lost with the table below. Is this an example of how you gain and lose DKP? Why does being evil make you lose DKP? It's really rare that a class or subclass penalizes you for your actions in your alignments. Also, what about an evil guild. I could definitely see a thieves guild being happy that you were stealing from the general populace.


This needs some more clarifications on what DKP is, how you get or lose them (more specifics), and what you can buy with them.

[Phhase]

There are several cases where you refer to using shade that is more than 5, but is appears that you can only get shade equal to your charisma modifier. Am I reading something wrong here?

Either I forgot to correct it, or you may have missed it (Which is pretty easy) but you get shade equal to your Charisma score, so up to 20.


Nightblessed - I was bothered seeing this as a level 3 feature at first, since Paladin's typically only get channel divinity at level 3. But in looking at it it doesn't seem to increase power overall, so sure why not.
Does Magical Darkvision all you to see through magical darkness? What is magical darkvision? Can it be suppressed via dispel magic?

Yes, it lets you see through magical darkness. It's like that one Eldritch Invocation. Uhhh, iunno how dispel magic interacts with class features. Antimagic field...maybe?


Nightnail - You can draw in 2 creatures with this. If you use smite do you smite both creatures? If you do, does it use 1 slot or 2? The save they make, what is the type of save they make? Also, I don't foresee anyone successfully making the save vs the total damage. That can get pretty high with a paladin smiting.

10 if you blow your whole shade pool. Potentially more if you use the level 15 feature. Uh, probably a Con save. I might leave off the smite bit, then. You're probably right. Though you would be blowing a smite just to guarantee the effect, more or less. The save would be...1d12+5? If you're using a greatsword? And you have to leave the sword there.


Together in Dark - Per above, does this let you see through magical darkness? Also, what happens to an ally that has night vision?

Yes. Allies who already have darkvision at or beyond the stated ranged gain the ability to see through magical darkness up to the stated range.


We are the Knight - This is really situational for a 20th level capstone. The overall power seems fine, but generally I see Paladin 20th level abilities as one you can easily use every day. Still, it's a capstone and 99% of people will never see it.

Think about it, though. You can see fully across the barrier. You can use it to bypass and scout anything and anywhere that isn't also defended from the Shadow side. You can have your party pop up right next to the king, then pop out again. You could escape certain death by just hanging out in the Plane of Shadow (Though it, of course, has its own hazards...).

There is the Shade-refresh, though. I imagine that would get used all the time.


This is by far the most gritty and dark Paladin I've seen. It would be a blast to roleplay.

Thank :smallbiggrin:. Remember though, you're supposed to make everyone less afraid of the dark, and you're not allowed to spook your enemies with it! What do you think about the spells?

[theVoidWatches]

I like the idea of a Bard that gains more power as he gains renown with people. It's a good way to run with this contest.

Awe Points - Is that when you roll a 20 on the die or you get a 20 or more on the results of the skill check. Based on how powerful the Awe Point abilities are, I'm going to guess that it's an actual roll of a 20 on the die. Other than that this seems pretty cool. It may be to powerful, but I'm not willing to run the numbers on how often you would roll a 20 on a skill check (and I know that a Bard isn't laying out massive damage

Yeah, it's only supposed to be when you get an actual 20.



Limited Energy - You forgot to mention the level here.
Dance Around Danger - Missing a cost here.

Fixed.


My guts says that while I was playing this class, I wouldn't be using the limited Energy all that often since the awe point passive abilities are so powerful. It would likely be "get to the top of my range as quickly as possible, then use 1. Repeat"

Do you think it might feel better if instead of earning 1 Awe Point each time, you earned 1d4, with your maximum being your Bard Level? With the costs for the bonuses being increased as well, of course? That would reduce the relative cost of the Limited Energy abilities.

[nickl_2000]

Do you think it might feel better if instead of earning 1 Awe Point each time, you earned 1d4, with your maximum being your Bard Level? With the costs for the bonuses being increased as well, of course? That would reduce the relative cost of the Limited Energy abilities.

Yes, 100% that would be better in my mind. Also, what in the world was that link you included in my quote? Was that something you posted on accident or was my account hacked in some way?

[theVoidWatches]

Accidental - it was the link to a particular episode of a show which is on a subscription streaming network, which I had copied to send to a friend. Didn't realize it ended up here also.

[Fnissalot]

Added the last parts to the way of elemental bands. I am not satisfied, with current iteration, I still like the base mechanic of the point pushing around the circle but I am afraid that the actual spending of it will feel the same as the four elements monk, thus not solving what I am trying to work around.

[nickl_2000]

Added the last parts to the way of elemental bands. I am not satisfied, with current iteration, I still like the base mechanic of the point pushing around the circle but I am afraid that the actual spending of it will feel the same as the four elements monk, thus not solving what I am trying to work around.

Are you ready for comments as is then or would you rather wait until you are more satisfied?

[Fnissalot]

Are you ready for comments as is then or would you rather wait until you are more satisfied?

Comment on it as it is, as it probably helps more in how I should continue with it?

[Phhase]

Some thoughts:

As it's pretty much Draconic Sorcerer but a warlock, I feel like this would require playtesting to really get a handle on. But it seems like it'd work ok. You need to specify the damage amount dealt by the breath weapon boon though. Have you considered making some Eldritch invocations? You could make some cool breath variants.

This is a pretty cool concept. Needs formatting though. Not everything needs be in a spoiler. Probably just the finishers. Speaking of, they're pretty cool, but I have a few pointers.

>Deft volley
What's it for? It seems quite weak

>Buried Axe
Good, but why necrotic damage? Wouldn't it be the same physical type as the weapon? Probably slashing, considering it's an axe finisher.

>Signature Slash
Hilarious Zorro-inspired move. Don't even care it doesn't do real damage, it's perfect for style. The secondary effect though, what's that supposed to be? Seems a little odd.

>Skewer
Again not sure about the necrotic damage. As an aside, I feel like one of the spear finishers should impale the target, autograppling them until they get pulled off (which deals more damage). Maybe the level 3 one. Seems a little odd for a spear/polearm to barge things out of the way.


>Vaccum Slash
Fix wording. Try "Each attack deals its weapon's dice plus your proficiency." Not really sure about the Force damage either. Also consider not making this quite as restrictive with respect to damage stacking. Its seems a bit of a downer (though I totally understand the desire to prevent a Magic Missile sort of situation).

>Ragdoll
PFAHAHAH

>Rival
I'm not sure how I feel about a whole class feature dedicated to being Gary, but it's pretty funny regardless.

You also might want to consider axing Iron Fists. If you want to punch things, you usually take Monk levels (Which would Synergize amazingly due to Flurry of blows). On the whole, it's going to a good place!



Pretty cool concept right here. Gonna hafta see the metasurges before I can really tell for sure though. As is, I'm still giggling at the thought of a barbarian sitting in front of a magic item and growling at it for 10 minutes until it tells him what it does.



Ah yes, my yang.

>Deity's Light
While it sounds good, in practice, it might be a little hard to keep track of how much time has passed. Does this effectively mean you have 12 points every day? If you stand beside a torch constantly during the night, or in the dark, does that count? If the Light cantrip counts, does that mean you get up to 24 points per day/night cycle? Consider adjusting this.

>Channel Divinity
Seems good. Not sure what the point of "Touching an object" for Sun Burst is if it's an Instantaneous effect, though.

>Hurling Smite
Pew!

>Burning Aura
Needs more description on how this works. Does it have limits? Does the heat Metal effect require concentration? You may want to use a different spell effect. Heat Metal seems a little odd to me.

>Beacon of Light
Does "Your area of Light" mean the 60 feet of bright light or the whole 120ft of the aura? How many creatures can you blind at once? Otherwise, seems good.

Overall, on a good path. Needs a little something though.


Gonna take me a bit to get through Elemental Bands...looking forward to it though! In the meantime, anyone else have thoughts on Oath of the Enshaedn?

[BerzerkerUnit]

@Phhase thanks for your feedback!

I’ll get to wording and formatting soon. Some clarification:

Deft Volley is for putting down a bunch of weak enemies. Extra good if your DM uses a minion rule, but if you have the chance to poison a set of ammo first it can guarantee application. It doesn’t have a fear mechanic but a sudden unavoidable peppering might communicate a superior threat.

Buried Axe and Skewer deal Necrotic damage to simulate blood loss (based on how vampire bites work). It’s a little added utility for damaging creatures with resistances.

Signature Slash is a marking mechanic, you irritate the foe so they focus on you.

Vacuum Slash is supposed to be static damage regardless of weapon and force damage was chosen because the attack its modeling is the kind that ignores all but the most absurd boss defenses.

Iron Fists... i understand that a lot of folks think you should have to MC monk to punch things good, but I wanted viable unarmed damage to be an option and you don’t get that without 17 levels of Monk. Just co-opting the damage dice (since pro boxers are not Monks) for this fighter and allowing fists to function as TWF weapons (so you can bonus action off hand attack, add stat bonus damage if you took the style and benefit from the feats which can shore up your unarmored AC). It requires a much greater investment for barely comparable effect.

[nickl_2000]

Catching up as of my morning of 9/23, if I have missed you let me know.





I'll do my best here in reading and commenting. This appears to be pretty complicated when it comes to bookkeeping and understanding how it will work, and my brain is having some issue comprehending all of it. Which tells me that the logistics could be simplified down somewhat or re-written to be more clear (or maybe it's pre-coffee issues, but if pre-coffee me is having trouble understanding it I know others will as well).

So, you have 2x your proficiency in elemental points. I don't see how they are initially split. Also, I see in your rules that some things spent points in the opposing band. How and when do you get those points back? Also, what does it take to change the order of the bands? Can you do it only at rests, or as an action?

Scholar of Nature's Forces - This seems pretty limited to me. I wouldn't mind seeing it expanded a little bit to be more inclusive.

Elemental Band Features -
My only possible concern here on the spells is that you can cast some of the spells as a monk sooner than a full caster will be able to do it. It looks like you did the calculations, but I just wanted to make sure.

Strike of Grasping Clay - It is pretty normal in these that an ally can also break them free with a strength check as well. I would consider either an athletics or acrobatics check to break free. Restrained is a pretty brutal condition, so making it a little bit easier to break out isn't a bad thing.

Strike of Summit’s Gong - This is significantly weaker than the other two I've seen. I personally think that this one is about right for a monk who also has Ki to stun lock and opponent. I would consider reducing the overall amount of time for slow and restrained on continued save failures.

Strike of Crab’s Grasp - What is the range? If they leave range does the effect or or can you just not do damage until you get back into range?

One thing I am noticing for the strikes. Most of them have a longer term affect, if you are going to do that I would look at introducing concentration into it.


I think you have a really solid thing going here, but the rules around the bands and what you can cast and when you can cast it need to be tightened up and simplified.








I don't have a lot to say here. This is a solid subclass, it's interesting, it gives you lots to do, and it just feels right from a balance standpoint. So... ya.... Great job on this one.

[sleepyhead]

Gifts from the Light - So technical from your wording, at 7th level I can spend a long rest in the light and then trade it in for a 5th level spell slot. Probably should have something in here that says you can only gain slots that you have access to.

Sun Burst - It's a little bit odd that you have to spend more Luminous points as you level up and don't really gain much more out of it. It seems like it would be better to set an amount of stored light that this takes (likely 3 since you get it at level 3) and then give it additional damage when you add more luminous points to it.

Hurling Smite - This is a pretty specific feature and wouldn't end up being used all the time. It seems like it would be better to have a cost to hurl a ball, which does a certainly amount of damage. Then allow the Paladin to use Divine Smite or a smite spell on hit. It would simplify the feature some and would make it usable more often as well.

Burning aura - What is affected by the heat metal spell? Armor, weapons? Do you choose as the paladin or is it all metal on the body? What happens in rounds after the first (heat metal requires a bonus action after the first round to do more damage), but you could be affecting 5 people at the same time.

Beacon of Light - Needs a cannot be done until you finish a long rest afterwards.
Blind affect should have an additional save each round.
This is pretty powerful, even for a capstone. I wouldn't mind seeing 1 of the bullet points dropped off to balance it a tiny bit.


Gifts from the light- done
Sun Burst- Doesn't require any Luminous Points to activate?
Hurling Smite- Done and done
Burning aura- Changed Mostly Completely
Beacon of Light- Done & done.



Ah yes, my yang.

>Deity's Light
While it sounds good, in practice, it might be a little hard to keep track of how much time has passed. Does this effectively mean you have 12 points every day? If you stand beside a torch constantly during the night, or in the dark, does that count? If the Light cantrip counts, does that mean you get up to 24 points per day/night cycle? Consider adjusting this.

>Channel Divinity
Seems good. Not sure what the point of "Touching an object" for Sun Burst is if it's an Instantaneous effect, though.

>Hurling Smite
Pew!

>Burning Aura
Needs more description on how this works. Does it have limits? Does the heat Metal effect require concentration? You may want to use a different spell effect. Heat Metal seems a little odd to me.

>Beacon of Light
Does "Your area of Light" mean the 60 feet of bright light or the whole 120ft of the aura? How many creatures can you blind at once? Otherwise, seems good.

Overall, on a good path. Needs a little something though.

Deity's Light- Meant to be you got it all in the first hour of the day or the like, and yes any light sources count's including the light spell.
Channel Divinity- Meant to make it so it's centered around you.
Hurling Smite- Pow!
Burning Aura- Mostly Completely Changed.
Beacon of Light- Bright, and unlimited. Unless unlimited is to many.

Thanks for critique

[Fnissalot]

I'll do my best here in reading and commenting. This appears to be pretty complicated when it comes to bookkeeping and understanding how it will work, and my brain is having some issue comprehending all of it. Which tells me that the logistics could be simplified down somewhat or re-written to be more clear (or maybe it's pre-coffee issues, but if pre-coffee me is having trouble understanding it I know others will as well).

So, you have 2x your proficiency in elemental points. I don't see how they are initially split. Also, I see in your rules that some things spent points in the opposing band. How and when do you get those points back? Also, what does it take to change the order of the bands? Can you do it only at rests, or as an action?

Scholar of Nature's Forces - This seems pretty limited to me. I wouldn't mind seeing it expanded a little bit to be more inclusive.

Elemental Band Features -
My only possible concern here on the spells is that you can cast some of the spells as a monk sooner than a full caster will be able to do it. It looks like you did the calculations, but I just wanted to make sure.

Strike of Grasping Clay - It is pretty normal in these that an ally can also break them free with a strength check as well. I would consider either an athletics or acrobatics check to break free. Restrained is a pretty brutal condition, so making it a little bit easier to break out isn't a bad thing.

Strike of Summit’s Gong - This is significantly weaker than the other two I've seen. I personally think that this one is about right for a monk who also has Ki to stun lock and opponent. I would consider reducing the overall amount of time for slow and restrained on continued save failures.

Strike of Crab’s Grasp - What is the range? If they leave range does the effect or or can you just not do damage until you get back into range?

One thing I am noticing for the strikes. Most of them have a longer term affect, if you are going to do that I would look at introducing concentration into it.

I think you have a really solid thing going here, but the rules around the bands and what you can cast and when you can cast it need to be tightened up and simplified.


Cool! Things to think about. Thanks for the feedback

The order of the bands are locked as shown in the image. You cannot change the order of them. You are supposed to be free to place your points however you wish. Features that push points move the points to the next ring on the diagram, while features that also spend points, removes the points from the opposing element. For example, Fists like Crushing Hail requires you to have 1 point in water and 1 point in fire. When you use it, the point in water is moved to earth while the point in fire is removed. In the beginning, you only get the spent points back on a long rest, while at 6th and 17th level, you get new ways to get them back. Having the diagram in front of you with tokens representing your elemental points feels almost mandatory to make it work as it is. Does this explain the main mechanic of the class better? Or does it still need simplifying?

Is it better/simpler to write Spend 1 water and 1 fire and gain 1 earth than Push 1 water, spend 1 fire?

About spell levels, I think all spells comes in later than a full caster gets them but I might have missed some. Storm sphere for example requires a total of 10 elemental points, or 5 in proficiency bonus to cast. This subclass can cast it at 13 while a full caster would be able to cast it 7. Shatter can be cast at 5 while a full caster gets it at 3. If I missed one, let me know and I will get to changing it.

Scholar of Nature's Forces is meant as a ribbon. The main power at level 11 is the upgrades to the arm features; the ability to double push the basic elemental powers.

I was thinking about adding concentration to the strikes or limiting them so they only lasts at most 1 turn and you can only use one of them in a turn. I wasn't sure about it so I left it as it is, but since you bring it up I will do something about it.

Summit's Gong was one of the first ones I wrote and now that I look back at it, it appears lackluster. Crab's grasp was supposed to be 30 feet. Thanks for spotting these misses.

[nickl_2000]

Cool! Things to think about. Thanks for the feedback

The order of the bands are locked as shown in the image. You cannot change the order of them. You are supposed to be free to place your points however you wish. Features that push points move the points to the next ring on the diagram, while features that also spend points, removes the points from the opposing element. For example, Fists like Crushing Hail requires you to have 1 point in water and 1 point in fire. When you use it, the point in water is moved to earth while the point in fire is removed. In the beginning, you only get the spent points back on a long rest, while at 6th and 17th level, you get new ways to get them back. Having the diagram in front of you with tokens representing your elemental points feels almost mandatory to make it work as it is. Does this explain the main mechanic of the class better? Or does it still need simplifying?



So ya... I did this early in the morning at work. Apparently work completely blocked the image, so that may have cleared up a lot of confusion. I will try and check that out tonight so I can give a better answer.

[SleeplessWriter]

I don't have a lot to say here. This is a solid subclass, it's interesting, it gives you lots to do, and it just feels right from a balance standpoint. So... ya.... Great job on this one.



Thanks! I actually just threw the whole thing together last night sort of out of nowhere. The thing I'm most unsure of is the wording on Gaze Beyond the Veil, but I think it'll be alright as is for now. I also thought of adding a bit to Gaze Beyond the Veil to let them get some insight on the creature/object's future, but I decided not to try and tackle that hairy beast. Any insight (heh) on how I could do that without becoming broken are welcome.
Also, should I limit Shared Insight to one creature at a time, or is it fine as is?

[sengmeng]

As it's pretty much Draconic Sorcerer but a warlock, I feel like this would require playtesting to really get a handle on. But it seems like it'd work ok. You need to specify the damage amount dealt by the breath weapon boon though. Have you considered making some Eldritch invocations? You could make some cool breath variants.

I did consider exactly that and now I did actually do it lol.

[Nicrosil]

Alright, made some adjustments to the Spellbound Barbarian. I added the Metasurge effects, clarified some features, and buffed the 14th level ability. I decided to make Surge points based on barbarian level and refresh on a long rest, because trying to figure out how to balance it per rage broke my brain :smalltongue:. But, you also get Con modifier Surge points once per short rest, since you don't have proper spell slots you can melt down into points. I made sure to include a line about having a maximum number of Surge points equal to your barbarian level, to try to prevent coffeelock-esque shenanigans.

That being said, I'm still unsure on the costs for the Metasurge abilities. I roughly based it around the cost of equivalent Metamagic abilities, but I'm not sure about the more custom stuff like Tearing Surge or Cursed Surge. I'm also unsure about the 14th level abilities. A 5th level sorcerer can turn 5 sorcery points into a third level fireball; is that equivalent to a 14th level barbarian spending 8 surge points into a third level fireball that deals force damage?

EDIT: Oof, I just realized, at low levels it's entirely possible your Con modifier is higher than your level... Maybe make the per-short rest refresh mechanic give you a number of surge points equal to your proficiency bonus? Or would that run into problems with multiclassing? I mean, it's not really an issue, because your max number of points is your barbarian level, but it still feels weird that you can "waste" points... Maybe cut it entirely? Or make it once per long rest? Hmm...

[Phhase]

Maybe make the per-short rest refresh mechanic give you a number of surge points equal to your proficiency bonus? I think that sounds good. Isn't your proficiency bonus calculated by your total level?

[theVoidWatches]

Does anyone other than Nickl have thoughts on the College of Plautus?

I'm putting together feedback on everyone else's but it's taking a while because I've been busy at work.

[Phhase]

Does anyone other than Nickl have thoughts on the College of Plautus?

I'm putting together feedback on everyone else's but it's taking a while because I've been busy at work.

Sure, absolutely!

(Reading...)

A very interesting read. You've got a great deal of good RP'ing opportunities here. There's some great potential for pro wrestler or gladiator or Robin Hood or what have you here.

>Extended Death Scene
PFFFFFFFFF Nice. Maybe add a corollary that you must make a traditional Protagonist's Dramatic Speech about heroic willpower and resilience to regain health.

Nomination is something whose value I cannot whatsoever judge. On the one hand, it could be REALLY awesome. On the other, it might feel frustrating, or constraining. Needs testing I guess. Definitely keep it in the entry though.

>Act Like You Know
"You know, I'm something of an arcanist myself..."

Innate Awe seems a little underwhelming to me at first. I know it gives you instant access to Limited Energy and Inspired Words right off the bat, which is great, pretty powerful, but it doesn't really feel like a proper capstone. What if you could summon a phantom crowd? That sounds like it would be really cool. You walk alone into the monster's lair and they hear you from a mile away by the cheers and howls, but cannot help but stare as you stride in to challenge their champion with the brash confidence of a winner. An enthralling effect maybe?

You've got a really good balance here, of social and combat power, though I think it leans a little towards combat. One thing I'd like to see is a better way of gaining awe points for social interaction. Currently, the only way is to get a 20 on a check, at which point, you've already succeeded anyway. Perhaps if you have awe points when entering a town or bunch of people, you can cash out the awe points? Perhaps not. Anyways, I feel like there should be a way this class can contribute while in town and not out slaying things.

One other thing I'd like is a way to "Play to the crowd" I feel it's really the only thing missing thematically from an otherwise well-rounded subclass. Perhaps a fear effect where you stoke the crowd's roar? Or perhaps something where if you take the Dodge action and enemies miss their attacks, you get some sort of benefit for being stylish? Perhaps even a "Say My Name" sort of thing where everyone chants your name?

Ooh, and while you're at it, what about a way to gamble your Awe points? Spend X to try some daring maneuver, and gain Y if you succeed, but lose Z if you fail? That sounds super thematic. "Don't let this man distract you from the fact that in 1998, The Belowbringer threw Goblinkind off Baator In A Cell, and plummeted 20ft through an announcer's table!"
All in all, purty sweet!

Where's the name come from, by the way?

[theVoidWatches]

Thanks for the feedback - I think you're right that it's leaning towards combat more than social abilities, but I'm not too bothered by that. Bards lean pretty heavily towards social abilities already, after all.

I've added a boost to the capstone in giving you the ability to reroll the d6 for gaining inspiration points, as well as giving you a full 1d6 instead of just 1 Awe Point on initiative rolls.

Plautus was an ancient Roman playwright, and was one of the first whose plays acknowledged the audience and left actors the freedom to interact with the audience to a certain extent - in other words, he was the first to play to the audience in the way that the subclass is all about.

[nickl_2000]

Thanks! I actually just threw the whole thing together last night sort of out of nowhere. The thing I'm most unsure of is the wording on Gaze Beyond the Veil, but I think it'll be alright as is for now. I also thought of adding a bit to Gaze Beyond the Veil to let them get some insight on the creature/object's future, but I decided not to try and tackle that hairy beast. Any insight (heh) on how I could do that without becoming broken are welcome.
Also, should I limit Shared Insight to one creature at a time, or is it fine as is?

I think it is fine the way it is honestly. Although I might simplify it down even more in that you don't need to spend the action to connect with the friendly minds. Just allow telepathic communication and add the intuition point with friendly, willing creatures. The communication aspect is still less powerful than the Ghostwise Halfing or Warlock feature.


As for gaze beyond the veil, you could tighten up some of the wording. There are definitely a few cases where you could use it instead of the "single creature or object." I would not give it an aspect that allows you to predict the future. That is asking a DM to predict what they players are going to do (always a bad idea) or not give them as much control over what happens in the campaign (even worse idea). Honestly, I think it is good the way it is currently.

[Nicrosil]

Feedback!

I like it! The effects the Awe points give you are powerful, but it's tempered by the difficulty in obtaining them. In fact, it might be a bit too hard to get Awe points? Well, I'm going back and forth on it, but the more I think about it, the more I feel like it's balanced. I like the optional nomination rule as well (especially since the DM can veto). Overall, it looks like fun!

Looks interesting! I understand why you made a new pool of points rather than ki points, to avoid the pitfalls the original elemental monk falls into, but it is a lot to keep track of. Pushing and spending the points is very thematic, but it also seems kind of complicated. Say I'm level 20, and I just finished a long rest. I get 12 points, split evenly among each of my bands, so that's, say, 3 in fire, 3 in wind, and 2 in everything else. If I want to cast immolate, I need 6 points in fire and wind. So I can't spend any points, because doing so would remove them until I finish a rest. Instead, I would need to use a lot of turns to cast the elemental ribbon cantrip/use the Arms like X feature to move the points where I'd need them. After casting immolate, I'd have 6 points in lightning, and none in my other bands. If I want to cast hold person, I need 3 points in fire and 3 in water, so I'd need to go through the process of shuffling points around again. Is that right, or am I misreading this? Also, is there a limit to how many points you can have at a time? The abilities themselves seem fine, it's just the point shuffling mechanic that's throwing me off. Overall it looks really cool, but it's a lot to keep track of.

Looks good! No real complaints here, though personally I'd switch the bonuses you get at 4 BPR and 6 BPR; a +1 to hit bonus at level 4 feels off for some reason. Also it doesn't specify if that's just for melee weapon attacks, or all attacks. Also also, is there anything preventing an ally from punching you a lot before battle to build up BPR? I don't know if there would be any problems with it if that were the case, since rage only lasts so long, but it's something to keep in mind.

More inbound!

[nickl_2000]

Feedback!



Yay feedback :)



Looks good! No real complaints here, though personally I'd switch the bonuses you get at 4 BPR and 6 BPR; a +1 to hit bonus at level 4 feels off for some reason.


I'll take your gut there. I'm not tied into the order on those, switching is fine.



Also it doesn't specify if that's just for melee weapon attacks, or all attacks.


Nope, I chose that specifically. I want my barbarian to have choices. And a really, really angry barbarian throws a dagger at someone much harder than a non-angry person :)




Also also, is there anything preventing an ally from punching you a lot before battle to build up BPR? I don't know if there would be any problems with it if that were the case, since rage only lasts so long, but it's something to keep in mind.

More inbound!

Yup "Whenever an opponent causes you to lose hit points you also gain a blood rage point (BRP)."

At this point I'm depending on the DM to adjudicate what an opponent is and what one isn't. This is part of the reason I only made it last for the rage. You can't abuse it to excessively when it only last for 1 minute.

[RickAsWritten]

My entry, the Irradiated Fighter, is up. I wanted to pretty much make Sickening Radiance as a subclass, as it's one of my favorite spells. It's got a couple nods to other post-apocalyptic influences as well. I tried to keep it balanced at first blush, but there may be a few things that are a little off. Feedback is welcomed as always. Thanks.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Irradiated Fighter will likely take one of my votes, I really like it. Honestly, I think you should call it Spellscarred or Mournlander to tie it directly to a campaignsetting. Radiation always makes me think of the Hulk and there’s no real Hulk about this. You can stick with the magical calamity theme but also tie in the Star of Ill Omen, fiendish curses etc.

Feedback: perpetuate might be too good if you don’t cap the amount of clicks it can apply since at level 7 you could be applying 2 clicks per round. That makes the later ability to swap clicks for exhaustion really harsh I think, potentially halving speed and accuracy of a boss on round 3.

[Phhase]

Does anyone have more pointers on Oath of the Enshaedn?

[Fnissalot]

Looks interesting! I understand why you made a new pool of points rather than ki points, to avoid the pitfalls the original elemental monk falls into, but it is a lot to keep track of. Pushing and spending the points is very thematic, but it also seems kind of complicated. Say I'm level 20, and I just finished a long rest. I get 12 points, split evenly among each of my bands, so that's, say, 3 in fire, 3 in wind, and 2 in everything else. If I want to cast immolate, I need 6 points in fire and wind. So I can't spend any points, because doing so would remove them until I finish a rest. Instead, I would need to use a lot of turns to cast the elemental ribbon cantrip/use the Arms like X feature to move the points where I'd need them. After casting immolate, I'd have 6 points in lightning, and none in my other bands. If I want to cast hold person, I need 3 points in fire and 3 in water, so I'd need to go through the process of shuffling points around again. Is that right, or am I misreading this? Also, is there a limit to how many points you can have at a time? The abilities themselves seem fine, it's just the point shuffling mechanic that's throwing me off. Overall it looks really cool, but it's a lot to keep track of.



I think you are reading it correctly. That was the idea of how it would work. It is insightful to hear someone else discuss it!

Elemental ribbon cantrips is 1/turn but can be done without worry over time outside of combat. At level 5 you can move 4 points per turn with attacks through arms, and at 11 you can move 8 points per turn. So after doing the immolate, to do hold person you would need to first do 9 attacks (3 turns) while to cast warding wind would "only" need 4 attacks (1 turn).

The current amount of points lets you at level 20 cast between 1 5th level spell, 1 2nd level, and 2 1st levels per short rest or 11 1st level spells.

That said, you should probably be free to arrange them however you want at the end of a rest if kept as it is now. And I need to simplify it a bit.

[theVoidWatches]

Feedback, finally!


This seems like a lot, and too complicated for a subclass. I'd like to see it as a full class, though - maybe as a Wu Jen? I don't have any specific feedback other than 'simplify' though. A simpler version might give you bonuses depending on how many points are in each band (maybe you get a passive bonus based on which band currently has the most points) and allow you to push them to another band with active use - you would have to continually vary your ability use as the points circle around.



Is 6 BRP meant to be a +1 to attack rolls?
I generally like this - it motivates you to tank by rewarding you for taking hits rather than increasing your ability to do so, which is neat.



Can you change Luminous Points to spell points more times than you have Channel Divinities? I would suggest moving that into the Deity's Light feature so it can be made clear. As the other channel divinity maybe rip off the Holy Weapon that the Devotion paladin gets, investing light into a weapon to make it more powerful.
What kind of attack roll does Hurling Smite use - a ranged weapon attack, or a ranged spell attack?
Burning Aura should probably do Radiant damage.



I don't like the Rival feature. While it definitely fits the flavor, mechanically you've somehow gained an ******* who just supernaturally shows up to help you (despite nominally being a rival). This should be a roleplay thing, not a mechanical benefit.
I think it would be cool if your combo points were maintained until you were hit by an attack or went a turn without attacking. This would allow for more expensive finishers that might end up even more overtly supernatural, but would be difficult to pull off as they would probably require careful maneuvering to be able to avoid hits while still building your combo.



I have nothing to say about this except that it's sad that the sorcerer doesn't get this many metamagic options. I love it!



In the title of the oath it's called the Enshaedn, which I assume to be a typo.
The title in general feels off. Oath of the Shadow, Oath of the Darkness, or Oath of the Night all feel appropriate, but Enshaden doesn't feel right.
I feel like they should get Shadow Blade as an oath spell.
Instead of requiring Shade Points to cast their domain spells, why not let them spend Shade Points to boost their spells? Or at least reduce the price. You get so few Shade points, and the costs are so relatively high...



Seems kind of boring, but it works.
Breath of the Ancestor is gonna be crazy strong - reduce it to half your warlock level d6s, and make it a 1d6 cooldown instead. As is it's a 1/combat nuke, but I think it should instead be an alternate attack.
Instead of coming out as a cone, Breath of the Ancestor should be whichever shape your ancestor has.
Should probably change all the "ancestor"s to "patron"s.



I'm sorry, but I hate this. This is such a boring archetype and it's so reliant on DM fiat for what's available.



Form of a Thousand Eyes feels strange to me. Do you maintain that form? What stats does it have? Sharing Portent is cool, but I suggest modifying this slightly - allow the character to spend a single use of Wild Shape to momentarily assume this form and see a glimpse of the future. One wild shape, one portent. Let it be used twice per long rest.
Generally speaking this is neat, but Intuition Points could probably get another use or two.



I really like having the system be that you can use as many points as you want, but it gets dangerous and even deadly before long.
Other creatures having rad clicks could stand to be a bit more interesting. Maybe each time they start a turn, they take necrotic damage and radiant damage equal to the number of clicks they have, and their clicks drop by one. Add a smite-esque effect where you can give yourself a click to give your enemy a click on hit, and you've got a nice slow-burn effect that seems appropriate for radiation.

[Fnissalot]

Feedback, finally!


This seems like a lot, and too complicated for a subclass. I'd like to see it as a full class, though - maybe as a Wu Jen? I don't have any specific feedback other than 'simplify' though. A simpler version might give you bonuses depending on how many points are in each band (maybe you get a passive bonus based on which band currently has the most points) and allow you to push them to another band with active use - you would have to continually vary your ability use as the points circle around.


Ok, even more insight into me overdoing the base of this subclass.

Current plan on simplifying it:
You have 2*proficiency elemental points.
You are in an elemental stance.
Depending on the stance you are in, you have different options of spells or abilities.
Each stance will have a passive effect that is active as long as you remain in that stance, a ribbon cantrip, and a set of abilities that spend elemental points. You can only use an ability that cost as much as your proficiency bonus or less.
At the end of your turn if you have used an ability of your stance, you change elemental stance to the next one in the circle.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Feedback, finally!

[

I don't like the Rival feature. While it definitely fits the flavor, mechanically you've somehow gained an ******* who just supernaturally shows up to help you (despite nominally being a rival). This should be a roleplay thing, not a mechanical benefit.
I think it would be cool if your combo points were maintained until you were hit by an attack or went a turn without attacking. This would allow for more expensive finishers that might end up even more overtly supernatural, but would be difficult to pull off as they would probably require careful maneuvering to be able to avoid hits while still building your combo.


[

I'm sorry, but I hate this. This is such a boring archetype and it's so reliant on DM fiat for what's available.



I really like having the system be that you can use as many points as you want, but it gets dangerous and even deadly before long.
Other creatures having rad clicks could stand to be a bit more interesting. Maybe each time they start a turn, they take necrotic damage and radiant damage equal to the number of clicks they have, and their clicks drop by one. Add a smite-esque effect where you can give yourself a click to give your enemy a click on hit, and you've got a nice slow-burn effect that seems appropriate for radiation.


Thanks so much for your feedback!
The Rival mechanic is designed to model relationships seen in a lot of manga and anime. technically, you are the Rival, your counterpart appearing out of nowhere fresh as a daisy, smacking your foe, chiding you, and escaping scot free is what motivates you to recover, tenuous a situation as that may be. But it’s enough to reset your death counter and push the fight to a conclusion, maybe even restrain or prone a foe depending on the Finisher they use.

I had thought about having 5+ point Finishers and different mechanics for losing combo points as you describe, but the reality is a Tabaxi with the Mobile feat or MC swashbuckler could rack up a mountain in a short period of time at no risk.

I also felt it was a trap option, I wanted the combos to be every other turn to every turn and that meant balancing them more or less against Hex and Hunter’s Mark and smite spells. Saving up for some twelve dragon fist attack on round 5 when most foes are already on the ropes or down would feel like a waste. I also wanted them all available from level 3 on and having to either create scaling damage dice or allow 3rd level fighters to occasionally meteor swarm wasn’t going to work.

Re: Guilder
I agree, a list of what you can buy at those levels to prevent DM fiat would be good.

Radiation fighter:
They already have a mechanic that applies clicks, I agree that something that makes foes take radiant and Necrotic damage (or radiant and poison/acid) per click might be cool.

Something that stimulates healing in allies (at the cost of maybe useless mutations or exhaustion/poisoned condition) would be cool too.

[Phhase]

Feedback, finally!


In the title of the oath it's called the Enshaedn, which I assume to be a typo.
The title in general feels off. Oath of the Shadow, Oath of the Darkness, or Oath of the Night all feel appropriate, but Enshaden doesn't feel right.
I feel like they should get Shadow Blade as an oath spell.
Instead of requiring Shade Points to cast their domain spells, why not let them spend Shade Points to boost their spells? Or at least reduce the price. You get so few Shade points, and the costs are so relatively high...


Nah, just me being dumb and stylistic. You'd think they'd get Shadow Blade, but it deals psychic damage, which I feel is a little at odds with the whole Don't Cause Terror thing.

Did you catch the part where your Shade is equal to your Charisma SCORE? You might be right though, so I reduced the cost of replacing a shot to just the spell slot's level rather than double and doubled Shade recovery. I just wanted to avoid the class becoming Warlock, since you get some shade back on a short rest.

[theVoidWatches]

I think I automatically read it as Charisma Modifier. Which, honestly, is also absurd, but in the opposite direction. It should probably scale somehow. I suggest giving Shade Points equal to your Paladin level.

[nickl_2000]

Feedback, finally!


Is 6 BRP meant to be a +1 to attack rolls?
I generally like this - it motivates you to tank by rewarding you for taking hits rather than increasing your ability to do so, which is neat.



Yup, I changed it to make it more obvious and use standard language.

That was part of what I wanted to make here. You are a tank as a barbarian, your main goal in life if to take abuse and make sure the squishies don't. So, why not reward you for doing and that make you better as you do it.

[Phhase]

I think I automatically read it as Charisma Modifier. Which, honestly, is also absurd, but in the opposite direction. It should probably scale somehow. I suggest giving Shade Points equal to your Paladin level.

That's why I made the costs so high, and the restore so low. I kind of liked the pool being (more or less) static, so that lower levels you cast more spells, but as you unlock more uses for Shade you kinda branch out (Nightnail 5 enemies, Shadowsight, etc.), but Level + bonus could work too. Iunno. Maybe I could add an option to boost the Smite with Shade? Thoughts on domain spells?

[sengmeng]

Re: The Great Dragon
Seems kind of boring, but it works.
Breath of the Ancestor is gonna be crazy strong - reduce it to half your warlock level d6s, and make it a 1d6 cooldown instead. As is it's a 1/combat nuke, but I think it should instead be an alternate attack.
Instead of coming out as a cone, Breath of the Ancestor should be whichever shape your ancestor has.
Should probably change all the "ancestor"s to "patron"s.

Thanks for feedback; you're the first to look at it after the pact boon, invocations, and metamagic were added.

Yeah, I agree on the boring. Making it less like the draconic bloodline would help, I'm sure, but logically, why would it be significantly different?

Is a once per combat nuke necessarily bad? As is, it's a longer recharge than a dragon or half dragon's breath weapon, maybe slightly ahead on damage, but not much. I may change it if anyone else has similar opinions.

The word "ancestor" shows up because their direct draconic ancestor doesn't necessarily match the patron's color/type (who are supposed to be god kings/queens like Bahamut or Tiamat).

Thanks!

[SleeplessWriter]

Feedback, finally!


Form of a Thousand Eyes feels strange to me. Do you maintain that form? What stats does it have? Sharing Portent is cool, but I suggest modifying this slightly - allow the character to spend a single use of Wild Shape to momentarily assume this form and see a glimpse of the future. One wild shape, one portent. Let it be used twice per long rest.
Generally speaking this is neat, but Intuition Points could probably get another use or two.



Thanks for the feedback. No, you don't maintain the form beyond the ritual where you get the portents, so no stats. Fixed it to make that a little clear, and also added the ability to choose to expend either one or two wild shape when you perform the ritual to get an equal number of portents. Forces players to be strategic about it, but losing one short rest's worth of wildshape isn't that hard to replace if you do it at the beginning of the day before breaking camp/leaving the inn/what-have-you. Probably only an issue when pressed for time, so DM/Party dependent there.
I also added another way to use intuition points at 10th level, though I'm still kinda unsure whether two points is high enough a cost to limit it reasonably. That'll probably be fine, though. I also limited shared insight to a single creature that way forewarned wouldn't put the power level over the top, but I removed the range on the pseudotelepathy to make that a bit more useful too.

I also attempted to clear up the wording on gaze beyond the veil, hopefully I didn't just mangle it.

One more thing, I have another contest theme idea: Bring Out Your Dead! (Tong!), necromancy themed subclasses.

[Fnissalot]

Elemental bands monk has been overhauled to simplify it. I changed some of the elemental features. There is no interaction with Ki points currently, so that is something I will have to look at, and I think it has a bit too much spell-casting currently for my taste. Do you think it is simplified enough and is anything too unbalanced?

I will read through and comment on the other sub-classes after work.

[nickl_2000]

Just realized that I hadn't given feedback on this one yet.




I love the flavour text describing this subclass. It lends really well to certain character concepts and could turn really fun in a long term game where the DM plays along. Also, I like how this makes the points a bad thing instead of a good. It's different than how the rest of use have done it and I like the mechanic.

Clicks of Radiation
"For each click gained above your Fighter level, you must make a Constitution save against your Radiation DC" - It's a little bit odd that as you level it actually becomes harder to pass the save (well I guess it would stay level, but still the DC is higher as you level). I may actually look at setting the DC based on the total amount of clicks you have, so it gets more dangerous as you get more clicks above the soft max. 13 + #click above level would likely work..

Perpetuate - Based on wording it sounds like they only get a click if they move within 5 of you or end their turn there. What happens if you move within 5ft of them and they move away before the end of the turn? Do they have to make a save? I do worry this is a little bit overpowered, but I would have to see it in play to know for sure.

Irradiator
Injection- What is the effect of the Radiation Click? Is it the same as perpetuate? Or is it the same as you have as a PC? Just needs to be defined here. Also, is it intented that you can do this with a ranged attack? Does it make sense that you can inject radiation into someone from 300 feet away with an arrow?


Reactor - You forgot to add a level here.
I think you may be overusing exhaustion a little bit. I understand that it is a capstone, but you have the ability to give exhaustion in multiple different ways. Stacking them together could make it so you can drop someone with a few turn without ever having done any damage to them. I would prefer to see exhaustion removed from this and another effect added instead (just an opinion).

[BerzerkerUnit]

Sorry for the delay, here's some Feedback:

College of Plautus

I haven't watched prowrestling in years, but I can see the appeal of having a PC that keeps holding their hand to their ear waiting to see how the crowd chimes in.

First, maybe make a requirement that 5 creatures need to be present. Even hostile creatures can count, otherwise what crowd are you playing to on a stealth run or doing survival checks to chase the bad guy.

This also brings us to the major concern. I can see it being very possible as is that you may go entire sessions not generating Awe. Depending on 20s rolled or reducing a creep to 0 for a class that isn't combat oriented and a subclass that isn't making it combat oriented is rough. Even the skill roll thing I could see getting tedious as the player endlessly asks for rolls on every possible knowledge check or double doing every other PC's skill schtick in the hope of getting a 20 so they can accumulate some points.

The level 6 feature needs a phrase saying it comes at 6. I see it as a little boring because it's just lifting features from other classes. Note: that's entirely subjective, I don't see any balance issues except for the problem of maybe never having any points.

Recommendation: maybe have some kind of If it Bleeds it Leads feature so you get a point the first time you damage a foe after rolling initiative and the first time you're injured after rolling initiative or a Tag Team feature that gives you a point when you use or receive the Help Action.

Goodluck!

Elemental Bands Monk
Hmmmm. I know this is reaching for a fix to 4 elements monk from the PHB. In that respect I think it hits the mark on diversity of options.

That said, I'm not sure I'd want to play a class that has 2 separate pools of resources (elemental and Ki) and kind of requires a flowchart round to round (and I love sorcerers that have slots and points, but they're still static). It also seems really limited in how much elemental stuff you can do before you're just punching since you have so few points). Maybe if there was a bonus action to Spend Ki to buy elemental points it would seem more open. At 2 ki per point with a note you can't go over your maximum it would add some flexibility the mandatory elemental change warrants.

If I'm reading it right, the forced change after using a Band feature might take you to a subpar options for immediate circumstances forcing you to just punch or something when you really want a specific elemental feature.

Good luck!

Blood Rage Barbarian
It doesn't seem unbalanced since it's caps are level based. As an alternate RAGE HARDER to the Berserker I think it's a success.

That said, so many incremental boosts might feel like a chore to track. Maybe you could experiment with "buying" the features you want for a certain number of points (maybe 1/2 - 1/3 their current thresholds). Or chunk them together into 1, 5, 11, 17 blocks so it mirrors tier. Then the player doesn't have to track all those widgets and update their sheet every turn.

Complexity aside, what does this guy do out of combat? Barbarians are maybe the most straight combat class and every feature here is combat oriented. I see you removed a medicine thing, adding something like that in as you learn to treat your own minor scrapes would be something. Maybe add an Herbalism Kit or Brewer's Tools proficiency and a trick to make your own combat drugs ala Maenads or Juicers.

Good luck!


Oath of Light
I like that spell list and the basic concept is fine. I'd like to see the tenets of the Oath, maybe some stuff about rooting out corruption and banishing fear by defeating roaming monsters.

Recovering your Luminous points should require you to at least rest in light otherwise you're just always topped off every hour. May also want to make it "While resting or performing light activity in an area of Bright Illumination you regain Luminous Points.

Since you can spend them like a sorcerer for slots, but your points come back far more easily, I'd recommend reducing it to Half Paladin level (as they are half casters).

Not sure I like a flash grenade that also restores your points as a feature. It also comes at a level that's usually more defense oriented for you and the party. Maybe some sort of Hearth Aura "creatures in 10 feet of you always feel as if they are in the light of a cozy fire, they are immune to climate hazards due to extreme cold and have resistance to cold. As a reaction you can grant advantage to a creature in the aura making a save against cold damage."

Also, no non combat utility though I know paladins are usually bad at that.

Good luck!



More to come!

[theVoidWatches]

College of Plautus
I haven't watched prowrestling in years, but I can see the appeal of having a PC that keeps holding their hand to their ear waiting to see how the crowd chimes in.

First, maybe make a requirement that 5 creatures need to be present. Even hostile creatures can count, otherwise what crowd are you playing to on a stealth run or doing survival checks to chase the bad guy.

There's a note that you need at least one person present who can see or hear you. I know from experience that theater people only need one person to be playing to an audience.


This also brings us to the major concern. I can see it being very possible as is that you may go entire sessions not generating Awe. Depending on 20s rolled or reducing a creep to 0 for a class that isn't combat oriented and a subclass that isn't making it combat oriented is rough. Even the skill roll thing I could see getting tedious as the player endlessly asks for rolls on every possible knowledge check or double doing every other PC's skill schtick in the hope of getting a 20 so they can accumulate some points.

I see what you mean, and I would like to give more ways to get Awe. I did add Nomination as an optional rule, and I think the class would work best with it being used - it's optional more so the DM can prevent it from being overused than because I think it'll be problematic. I like your idea of If It Bleeds It Leads, and might add something similar.


The level 6 feature needs a phrase saying it comes at 6. I see it as a little boring because it's just lifting features from other classes. Note: that's entirely subjective, I don't see any balance issues except for the problem of maybe never having any points.

There is a quote saying that it comes at 6th level, it's just not the first thing in the feature.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Another feature idea for the College of Plautus might be something where you direct the ill will of the crowd at a foe, Dog Pile or something where maybe as a specific upgrade to vicious mockery you can use a bonus action to deal bonus psychic damage based on your allies’ Cha bonuses or something? Minimum 1 per ally?

[Fnissalot]

Sorry for the delay, here's some Feedback:


Elemental Bands Monk
Hmmmm. I know this is reaching for a fix to 4 elements monk from the PHB. In that respect I think it hits the mark on diversity of options.

That said, I'm not sure I'd want to play a class that has 2 separate pools of resources (elemental and Ki) and kind of requires a flowchart round to round (and I love sorcerers that have slots and points, but they're still static). It also seems really limited in how much elemental stuff you can do before you're just punching since you have so few points). Maybe if there was a bonus action to Spend Ki to buy elemental points it would seem more open. At 2 ki per point with a note you can't go over your maximum it would add some flexibility the mandatory elemental change warrants.

If I'm reading it right, the forced change after using a Band feature might take you to a subpar options for immediate circumstances forcing you to just punch or something when you really want a specific elemental feature.

Good luck!


More to come!

The diagram has been removed since before you wrote this in order to streamline it. Right now it is two static pools (elemental and ki), and a stance which controls what abilities you have at your disposal for the current turn. Initially I was thinking about calling the subclass the way of the primal ouroboros for how you will be running around this circle of elements, but that made it feel super esoteric and unclear what it was about when I talked with my gaming group about it. The current 4 elements monk only gets a super small selection of abilities and they cost way too much Ki for you to want to use them. This gets access to more abilities, but you only have access to 20% of them on any turn. The negative side of this is that you might need to spend four turns doing things to get into the stance you need for a specific spell, which is not the whole world to me at least, and I don't think any of the spells I gave it would be needed that extremely?

Just curios, do you think it would be better to "at the end of your turn, after you used an elemental ability, roll a d6, on a 1-5 change to the corresponding subclass (1 earth, 2 wind, 3 fire, 4 lightning, 5 water) and on a 6 choose which stance you want to enter."? It would be less deterministic but you might get more quickly to the element you would want. I personally prefer the deterministic approach, especially to monks; they don't feel so wild, random, or chaotic.

That said, it might have to few points in the early levels, and I want to find a way to weave ki points into it. Maybe it should always be on a short rest, and having a level 6 ability that combines into ki-points would be cool.

Its amount of elemental points(and how many spells at lowest or highest level that is) compared to eldritch knight, since it gets its subclass at level 3. It has 21 spells known (not counting the other abilities not directly casting a spell) but limited to its stance in what it can cast, eldritch knight only has 13. (That said, it is more closely related to a half-caster take on the warlock with spell points. If it would start at level 2, it would unlocks spell slots at the same speed as paladin and ranger, and regains spell(elemental) points on short rests after 6 level.)


Level
Eldritch Knight
Elemental Bands


3
2 *lv1
4 points (2 lv 1)


4
3*lv1
4 points (2 lv 1)


5
3*lv1
6 points (3 lv1 to 2 lv 2)


6
3*lv1
6 points/short (3 lv1 to 2 lv 2)


7
4*lv1, 2*lv2
6 points/short (3 lv1 to 2 lv 2)


8
4*lv1, 2*lv2
6 points/short (3 lv1 to 2 lv 2)


9
4*lv1, 2*lv2
8 points/short (4 lv1 to 2 lv 3)


10
4*lv1, 3*lv2
8 points/short (4 lv1 to 2 lv 3)


11
4*lv1, 3*lv2
8 points/short (4 lv1 to 2 lv 3)


12
4*lv1, 3*lv2
8 points/short (4 lv1 to 2 lv 3)


13
4*lv1, 3*lv2, 2*lv3
10 points/short (5 lv1 to 2 lv 4)


14
4*lv1, 3*lv2, 2*lv3
10 points/short (5 lv1 to 2 lv 4)


15
4*lv1, 3*lv2, 2*lv3
10 points/short (5 lv1 to 2 lv 4)


16
4*lv1, 3*lv2, 3*lv3
10 points/short (5 lv1 to 2 lv 4)


17
4*lv1, 3*lv2, 3*lv3
12 points/short (6 lv1 to 2 lv 5)


18
4*lv1, 3*lv2, 3*lv3
12 points/short (6 lv1 to 2 lv 5)


19
4*lv1, 3*lv2, 3*lv3, 1*lv4
12 points/short (6 lv1 to 2 lv 5)


20
4*lv1, 3*lv2, 3*lv3, 1*lv4
12 points/short (6 lv1 to 2 lv 5)

[BerzerkerUnit]

Knowing now that you're balancing against Eldritch Knight helps me make some sense RE: the spell availability.

I'm not sure I have enough of a grasp on your target to provide any more input than I have. That doesn't mean it needs to change, just that it doesn't appeal to me in its current incarnation.

I don't want to belabor the point, but a class option that forces you out of what might be a neutral or good set of abilities to deal with the immediate scenario into what might be less desirable or just inapplicable set of abilities is something I can't rightly grok. Wild Magic I get, sometimes you get good, sometimes bad, and both recharge an ability and other abilities are about luck bending or damage boosting.

This is a bevy of elemental abilities which you'll only have access to 1/4 of the time. Compared to a 4 elements monk, where I get a small number of abilities, but I know exactly what I have and can use them whenever I need them, even comboing some in the same turn.

I'm one guy though, I might just be on the outskirts of the bellcurve.

[Fnissalot]

College of plautus
Some weird written things that probably just is miswritten. (each time you each time you)
I like the idea of rhetorician or orator. I am not sure about the implementation though. The rate of accumulation of awe points will be very hard to balance and is hard to say something about without testing it. I think it might risk in some campaigns to never reach its potential due to how the table plays, while others will get it up there after a few rounds and can them spend them freely without care. Outside of that, it feels like it mostly is a lot of passive buffs and very few active options, which might make it feel like fighter champions etc.

Path of the bloodied
FYI, I read BRP as burp. Other than that, it is clean and cool. I would probably add something that does not correlate with rage (possibly out of combat or ribbon) just to even it out a bit as it is very centered around one thing (rage) right now. Maybe you can spend the BRP temp. hit points to gain a buff on intimidation (since you are drenched in blood)? I think the point accumulation will work very well in this implementation also! Good job!

Oath of light
I, personally, don't like the use of the word light when it comes to the cleric domain, and I find a bit of the same issue with this. I think a light focused subclass do not need to be focused around fire. At least you have not included anything about enlightenment.
Burning aura might be too good, the automatic damage in such a big range for such a long time (I would probably make it require concentration or limit it to 1 minute). At the same time, it is similar to the desert storm herald and people thought that was weak.
Beacon of light does not currently affect your light points in any way.

Combo King Fighter
As the combo point feature is worded right now, you can not spend points you get the same turn as you must do it when you take the attack action. Is that intentional?
I still think rival is a very funny ability even if it has weird effects on the narrative of the game.
The risk of losing a combo is rather high (due to numbers on a die), and I am not sure the abilities are worth the risk. You should pretty much always cash in your points as you will most likely loose them otherwise. I think it will feel super-frustrating to play this as you will so often lose your combo without getting anything for it. Furious strikes, signature slash, and red comet are great and probably the only finishers I would ever use. Getting a free hit that deals "less" damage is great.

Path of the Spellbound
Cool! I don't have so much to add. I think tearing surge could teleport first and then surge, as it would fit better with a barbarians role (not fleeing). And arcane surge could add your rage damage (or be d4+rage damage) to be more thematic.

Oath of Enshaedn
You get a lot of points early which could easily be abused. Getting that much more spells out (even if they are domain spells) is strong at level 3. Also, you might not get more points at later levels, and then you won't feel like you are improving in the same way. You only get more expensive powers without getting to do them more. It feels weird to me that you get as many points as your score but regen according to the modifier. I think this class has a lot of strong stuff going on but that would be ok if the points scaled better.

Great Dragon Patron
Does what it says, feels more draconic than the sorcerer version due to the pact, invocations, and new metamagic option. Feels very close to its original but I shouldn't say something as I try to remake a subclass as well.
Energy substitution might need a slight buff (make it affect the spell on your next turn as well?)

Guilder
I don't get what is going on or the intent of it =S

Circle of eyes
It is more or less divination druid? Cool! I like the aesthetic of it. Gaze beyond the veil is a bit lacking for a lvl 14 feature that costs 3 points unless I am missing the point of it?

Irradiated
I like the idea but a lot of the abilities are rather weirdly constructed and some might be very powerful.
It is unclear when you get reactor.
Perpetuate is a pre-deployed, AoE counterspell. I think it is a very mess as it is written right now, and it is strong enough that the subclass maybe shouldn't get that many abilities at that level.
Extraction forces exhaustion on enemies, which is crazy, and it can force multiple levels of it as well.

[nickl_2000]

Sorry for the delay, here's some Feedback:


Blood Rage Barbarian
It doesn't seem unbalanced since it's caps are level based. As an alternate RAGE HARDER to the Berserker I think it's a success.

That said, so many incremental boosts might feel like a chore to track. Maybe you could experiment with "buying" the features you want for a certain number of points (maybe 1/2 - 1/3 their current thresholds). Or chunk them together into 1, 5, 11, 17 blocks so it mirrors tier. Then the player doesn't have to track all those widgets and update their sheet every turn.

Complexity aside, what does this guy do out of combat? Barbarians are maybe the most straight combat class and every feature here is combat oriented. I see you removed a medicine thing, adding something like that in as you learn to treat your own minor scrapes would be something. Maybe add an Herbalism Kit or Brewer's Tools proficiency and a trick to make your own combat drugs ala Maenads or Juicers.

Good luck!




College of plautus

[B]Path of the bloodied
FYI, I read BRP as burp. Other than that, it is clean and cool. I would probably add something that does not correlate with rage (possibly out of combat or ribbon) just to even it out a bit as it is very centered around one thing (rage) right now. Maybe you can spend the BRP temp. hit points to gain a buff on intimidation (since you are drenched in blood)? I think the point accumulation will work very well in this implementation also! Good job!



The people have spoken, sounds like I needed one additional ability that is useful out of combat or elsewhere. So, I added in one more ability at level 3.

Frightening Facade
Bloodragers have a reputation in the world for being tough and quick to anger, and just looking at your scars and wounds it is obvious you are one of them. As such, most people are easily swayed to your side rather than risk experiencing your blood rage. At level 3 you may use your constitution modifier in place of your charisma modifier when making a check for persuasion or intimidation, and you gain proficiency in one of the two skills.

[theVoidWatches]

College of plautus
Some weird written things that probably just is miswritten. (each time you each time you)
I like the idea of rhetorician or orator. I am not sure about the implementation though. The rate of accumulation of awe points will be very hard to balance and is hard to say something about without testing it. I think it might risk in some campaigns to never reach its potential due to how the table plays, while others will get it up there after a few rounds and can them spend them freely without care. Outside of that, it feels like it mostly is a lot of passive buffs and very few active options, which might make it feel like fighter champions etc.

Yeah, I don't know if I have the accumulation rate set up well at all. I might swap out 1d6 Awe Points to 1d4 now that there are more ways to get them, but I'm not sure.

It definitely depends on table play style, but doesn't everything?

Having passive buffs as the primary bonuses is intentional. Bards are full casters and aren't going to suffer from a lack of options, like Champions do. And since this is a backwards resource where you get them over time, there were two ways to handle it - either mostly passive buffs as you get them, or you get them by using active abilities and they're bad for you (like the Irradiated subclass Rick made). I preferred passive buffs, personally.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Combo King Fighter
As the combo point feature is worded right now, you can not spend points you get the same turn as you must do it when you take the attack action. Is that intentional?
I still think rival is a very funny ability even if it has weird effects on the narrative of the game.
The risk of losing a combo is rather high (due to numbers on a die), and I am not sure the abilities are worth the risk. You should pretty much always cash in your points as you will most likely loose them otherwise. I think it will feel super-frustrating to play this as you will so often lose your combo without getting anything for it. Furious strikes, signature slash, and red comet are great and probably the only finishers I would ever use. Getting a free hit that deals "less" damage is great.
ll.

Thanks for the feedback!
I don’t see anything that prevents you from using combo points the turn you get them except they can’t be used with attacks of opportunity. Admittedly, at level 3 you would need to use two weapon fighting, make your off hand attack first, hit, and then use your attack action attack as a Finisher, so heavy weapon and bow fighters do have to wait till level 5, but then you can attack and finish every round if you like. And keep in mind, all finishers are weapon based, so swapping between weapons as needed is totally viable (especially since several finishers are improved when you release your weapon!)

And gambling for 3 successful attacks over two turns might seem a challenge at level 3, but it becomes very likely at level 11, and nothing requires you to combo a single opponent, you can action surge to slap around the boss’ low Cr minions to generate a bunch of points and then make 3 Skullsplitters or whatever on the boss.

[Fnissalot]

Thanks for the feedback!
I don’t see anything that prevents you from using combo points the turn you get them except they can’t be used with attacks of opportunity. Admittedly, at level 3 you would need to use two weapon fighting, make your off hand attack first, hit, and then use your attack action attack as a Finisher, so heavy weapon and bow fighters do have to wait till level 5, but then you can attack and finish every round if you like. And keep in mind, all finishers are weapon based, so swapping between weapons as needed is totally viable (especially since several finishers are improved when you release your weapon!)

And gambling for 3 successful attacks over two turns might seem a challenge at level 3, but it becomes very likely at level 11, and nothing requires you to combo a single opponent, you can action surge to slap around the boss’ low Cr minions to generate a bunch of points and then make 3 Skullsplitters or whatever on the boss.

Based on how it is written right now, you spend points for finishers when you take the attack action, so you need to do so before rolling any attack and you cannot do finishers on bonus action attacks.

[BerzerkerUnit]

To my knowledge, there is nothing in the rules as written mandating when you take the bonus action attack from Twf. Crawford’s (IMO ridiculous) assertion about shield mastery is bad and I think where this reasoning comes from.

As it has been ruled at every table I’ve played at on the west coast and hawaii, You declare what you’re doing before you resolve. That declaration is a commitment to do what you’ve declared and if it becomes irrelevant, you do nothing.

Example: I’m gonna Attack, (saying this triggers Twf) I make my bonus action off hand attack. Orc falls. I can stab the corpse or direct your main hand attack at another foe you can reach or move within reach of. If that was the last foe or no other enemies are in range you do nothing with your main hand or action, you cannot choose to dodge at that time.

Example 2: 2 wpns, warcaster, I declare attack, I attack with main hand wpn, enemy dies, I can either attack another foe with off hand wpn, move and attack, or choose to cast a bonus action spell. Because I chose to save the Twf Attack for last, I now have options on what I can do with the bonus action.

There are reasons to do either, maybe you have a magic weapon, maybe you want your lower damage off hand dealing with the kobold in front of you so your higher damage main hand (or multiple attacks) deal with the dragon 20 feet away.

I have never seen “off hand attacks always come after” as a valid interpretation or seen it implemented by a DM (I can’t speak to what other players may have chosen to do at the table, I only keep track of so much).

So, Combo Points And Finishers, as written here in its draft form, work as I’ve described given what I’ve seen as the most common interpretation of the RAW. Further even if you choose your interpretation, your issue dissolves at level 5 when you can make multiple attacks with your action and if you insist that that part is unclear, then I will be reviewing the text for a second draft before voting time later this month, but the intent is explicitly to allow any fighter at level fighter to attack and finish each round if desired from 5th on.

[Fnissalot]

You are missing what I am pointing at. I am not focusing on the order of bonus attacks and such.



Combo Points
Your successive attacks allow you to set up foes for powerful techniques. This is represented by Combo points. Each time you successfully hit a target you gain a combo point. Combo points remain until the end of your next turn. When you take the attack action you can spend combo points to replace one of the attacks granted by that action with a Finisher. You may also spend the points to Ready a Finisher.

If you miss with an attack roll while you have combo points, the combo points are lost.

The Finishers you can perform are dependent on the type of weapons you are wielding. Rules for finishers are detailed below.

Iron Muscle/Iron Hide- beginning at level 3 you can base your unarmored ac off your strength or Con instead of Dex. You can wield a shield and keep this benefit.

Iron Fist- beginning at 3rd level your unarmed attacks deal 1d4 bludgeoning and can be based off your strength or Dex. Your unarmed attacks count as weapons for all two weapon fighting purposes. This increases to d6 at 5th, d8 at 11th, and d10, at 17th.


The bold section, says that you can only spend combo points when you take the attack action. The TWF bonus action is not part of the attack action and can therefore not replace its attack with a finisher. In addition, since you need to spend the points when you do the action, not the attack, you cannot spend points gotten in the same turn on attacks that are part of the same attack action.

Replacing the bold part with the following would fix what I am pointing at:
When you make an attack, you can spend combo points to replace that attack with a Finisher.

[BerzerkerUnit]

It seems I’m not making myself clear and I’ll try and rectify that.

Twf says “when you take the attack action on your turn”, I’ve never in the history of 5e seen a dm insist the attack action attack/s be made before the bonus action attack granted by twf. So the same reasoning and interpretation of RAW is intended here. You say you’re going to attack, that’s “taking the attack action” vs “when you have taken the attack action.”

I’d also like to point out, your attack action lasts for the entirety of your turn as supported by how you can move attack, move attack, and move again all in the same round at level 1. So extrapolating you could move, attack, spend points, Finish, and move again falls within those parameters.

To really zero in, I Very specifically, I do not want Finishers used as AoOs and I do not want finishers executed as bonus actions. I want them limited to attacks made on your turn ie, the ones made as part of the attack action. TWF already gets a buff on point generation, I don’t want it to be further superior with number of possible Finishers. That may change as I continue to test and develop the subclass.

Better wording might be “you can spend combo points to execute a Finisher instead of a normal attack when you make an Attack as part of the attack action on your turn.” that seems needlessly verbose. I also said I’d be taking another pass at the language soon.

[Phhase]

Changes made to Oath of the Enshaedn:
Tweaks to the wording of Crawling Darkness, and misc. upcasting formats.

Your Shade well now scales by level. You can spend extra Shade to make spells harder to resist.

Added some more utility to Shadowsight, extended the potential duration.

The Shadow Within and Shadecasting (Shade-only casts) are a little more more flexible.

[BerzerkerUnit]

I'm in the process of moving the combo king to pdf.

A lot of edits, notably I've changed the name to Shikensu Warrior, combo points are now called flow. Mechanically very little has changed.

[Nicrosil]

Very nice! It's a lot cleaner now, though I'm confused about the line "You can only use one elemental power on an attack and you may only use one strike in each of your turns." Are strikes just the abilities that have the word strike in them? Are elemental powers the other abilities stances grant then?

Looks fun! I did a double take with the Channel Divinity options, until I remembered Paladins only get one Channel Divinity per rest :smalltongue:. For Hurling Smite, what exactly constitutes a smite spell? Is it any spell that has smite in it's name, only those that you have prepared, or something else? Also, with Burning Aura, when do creatures take damage? Is it when you use your bonus action to extend it? Overall it looks fun and unique; it feels like it would play differently from a normal Paladin, but that's not a bad thing!

Oh dang, fun martial classes are my weakness. I love the flow subsystem; I just wish there were more finishers for other weapons, like unarmed strikes or bows. The 10th level feature is a bit strange though. Personally, I would tweak it so that once per rest, you can make a free lesser Finisher without spending flow as a reaction before you're downed, and scale it up to heavy and devastating. No complaints with the rest of the subclass though!

I find it very amusing that we got a light and a shadow based paladin this round :smalltongue:. It's very flavorful, though I'm hesitant about using Shade points to boost spell DC, or setting DC's based on a damage roll. I don't know if it would be an issue in actual play, but it's making me do a bit of a double take.

I like this a lot! It's a sorcerer stuffed into a warlock, but that's not a bad thing. I would definitely play this given the chance! Sorcerous Talent says you need 5 sorcery points, but it doesn't specify a source, so does it work if you multiclass with a normal sorcerer? I don't think it's an issue if it does; a small bonus to your sorcery points isn't going to break anything, especially since the warlock gets it slower than a sorcerer.

Very neat; it's kind of like a pseudo-Artificer! It does feel very video game-y; spending a full round to buy an item kind of stretches my suspension of disbelief, but it's no big deal.

I like this a lot! You've captured a very lovecraftian feel without making you turn into a squid. Divination suits a druid very well. I would definitely play one given the chance.

Very flavorful! I like how you've turned the points system on it's head. Some of the abilities aren't party friendly, but it's not that hard to work around. All in all, looks like fun!

[BerzerkerUnit]

]

Oh dang, fun martial classes are my weakness. I love the flow subsystem; I just wish there were more finishers for other weapons, like unarmed strikes or bows. The 10th level feature is a bit strange though. Personally, I would tweak it so that once per rest, you can make a free lesser Finisher without spending flow as a reaction before you're downed, and scale it up to heavy and devastating. No complaints with the rest of the subclass though!

[R]

Thanks, I’m glad you like it! The Rival element is a reflection of the subclass’ roots in Shonen Fight Manga and Fighting Games. As for more finishers, the ranged finishers are intended to work with bows and the Fists of Brutality are intended to work with Unarmed strikes. If that isn’t clear I’ll have to revisit the language.

[sleepyhead]

Looks fun! I did a double take with the Channel Divinity options, until I remembered Paladins only get one Channel Divinity per rest :smalltongue:. For Hurling Smite, what exactly constitutes a smite spell? Is it any spell that has smite in it's name, only those that you have prepared, or something else? Also, with Burning Aura, when do creatures take damage? Is it when you use your bonus action to extend it? Overall it looks fun and unique; it feels like it would play differently from a normal Paladin, but that's not a bad thing!


Thanks edited

[Nicrosil]

Thanks, I’m glad you like it! The Rival element is a reflection of the subclass’ roots in Shonen Fight Manga and Fighting Games. As for more finishers, the ranged finishers are intended to work with bows and the Fists of Brutality are intended to work with Unarmed strikes. If that isn’t clear I’ll have to revisit the language.

:smallsigh: Okay ya turns out I'm a fool and didn't see that there were pages beyond the blades finishers. I redact my previous statements.

Also, made some tweaks to the Spellbound barbarian, mainly making Tearing Surge activate after you teleport.

[RickAsWritten]

I updated the Irradiated Fighter based on a lot of the feedback. Thanks to all who gave notes. Sorry for the last minute revision. Been a busy few weeks.

I feel pretty good about most of it, but I'm most unsure about the new addition of Radiation Sickness. I'm not sure if the feel/balance is quite right for that bit.

Martial Archetype - Irradiated (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=24165894&postcount=12)

[Phhase]

I find it very amusing that we got a light and a shadow based paladin this round :smalltongue:. It's very flavorful, though I'm hesitant about using Shade points to boost spell DC, or setting DC's based on a damage roll. I don't know if it would be an issue in actual play, but it's making me do a bit of a double take.


Haha, thanks Nicros. Yeah, it tickled me too. Happened completely by accident. I think the Nightnail attack DC might be ok. Weapon base damage goes up to 12, and your str bonus goes up to +5, so 17 is about the max DC, UNLESS you blow a smite, which, admittedly, will pretty much guarantee it. Although, you'd need a second greatsword or greataxe, since you gotta leave the Nightnail one in the ground. I totally get if feels outta left field though, 'cause it pretty much is.

[MoleMage]

Alright folks, thanks for keeping this contest running! I had a whole bunch of RL stuff come up so I'm sorry I didn't get to my customary feedback or making an entry, but you all didn't let that slow it down one jot.

Voting thread is now open for Contest XI! http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?600534-D-amp-D-Subclass-Contest-XI-Voting-Thread&p=24202064#post24202064

[Lanth Sor]

The guilder is meant to emulate Dragon Kill Points form vanilla WOW, they we a flawed system that pervaded all guilds. I would have given more but, the potential for items can be terrifying. Saying the item is at the DM discretion is because magic times have varying availability based on setting. TBH if you DM abuses this and makes you worse for taking it they are a bad DM and I don't know why you put up with them.

If you have never see the dots video from vanilla I can't express enough how priceless it is.

[RickAsWritten]

Any updates as to when the next one will be up?

[MoleMage]

I'm tabulating since MoleMage mentioned that there was a lot going on



Entry
Creator
1st
2nd
3rd
Points



Bard: College of Plautus (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=24151211&postcount=2)
theVoidWatches
1
0
1
4



Monk: Way of the Elemental Bands (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=24151506&postcount=3)
Fnissalot
1
0
1
4



Barbarian: Path of the Bloodied (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=24151963&postcount=4)
nickl_2000
1
2
0
7



Paladin: Oath of Light (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=24152032&postcount=5)
thisdude9001
0
0
2
2



Fighter: Shikensu Warrior (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=24152035&postcount=6)
BerzerkerUnit
0
0
1
1



Barbarian: Path of the Spellbound (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=24153004&postcount=7)
Nicrosil
1
2
0
7



Paladin: Oath of the Enshaedn (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=24153175&postcount=8)
Phhase
0
1
1
2



Warlock: Great Dragon Patron (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=24153247&postcount=9)
sengmeng
1
0
0
3



Fighter: Guilder (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=24156777&postcount=10)
Lanth Sor
0
0
0
0



Druid: The Circle of Eyes (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=24162734&postcount=11)
SleeplessWriter
1
2
1
8



Fighter: Irradiated (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=24165894&postcount=12)
RickAsWritten
2
1
1
9





Looks like:
1st: RickAsWritten: Fighter: Irradiated
2nd: SleeplessWriter: Druid: The Circle of Eyes
Tied for 3rd:
Nicrosil: Barbarian: Path of the Spellbound
nickl_2000: Barbarian: Path of the Bloodied




Theme
Description
1st
2nd
Points


Keep It Simple, Stupid
Simple Subclasses
1
1
3


From Zero to Hero
Ordinary folks doing the extraordinary
0
0
0


Scaling Strangely
Subclasses that scale from unusual values
2
0
4


Subsystems Online
New game mechanics
0
3
3


It's Mind!
Subclasses focused on mental abilities
3
2
8



Next Contest:
1st: It's Mind!
2nd: Scaling Strangely

Thanks to nickl_2000 for sending me a formatted tabulation of the contest. Our winners this time are Nicrosil and nickl_2000 in a tie for third with their respective barbarian paths, SleeplessWriter in second with the Druid Circle of Eyes, and in first is RickAsWritten with the Irradiated Fighter! Congrats to our winners. The next contest (It's Mind!) should appear shortly.

Sorry about the delay on the new contest, I'm still getting back into my stride.

[nickl_2000]

Congratulations everyone on the wins and the good entries.

Time for me to start brainstorming once again

[BerzerkerUnit]

Brainstorming for It's Mind!

Firestarter- the Pyrokinetic Barbarian
(maybe combine these)
Carrie- Telekinetic Barbarian

Sorcerous Origin: Mediumship

Calculator Rogue: some kind of "sacrifice sneak dice for wild magic" with percentile dice worked in

Circle of the Dreamshaper- maybe some kind of Eberron inspired Kalashtar Druid

Dread Domain- GOO Cleric

Fighter Archetype: The Rival- possibly too close to the Shikensu Warrior. A grappler/unarmed fighter. Gain "Confidence" when you succeed on an opposed check (like grapple) enjoy a passive benefit or Gamble Confidence for an Exploit which is likely to be some pro wrestler/pokemon stuff (like leaping into the air and falling so fast the opponent bursts into flames). Might look into Egyptian myth for some inspiration.

[sleepyhead]

Paladin: Oath of Light thisdude9001 0 0 2 2

Paladin: Oath of the Enshaedn Phhase 0 1 1 2

Crazy how we both got the same amount of points

[Fnissalot]

Ugh, I should finish my class for the base class competition...

I am thinking a barbarian that enters a state of flow and mental focus instead of rage, slowing down it's perception of time and calculating stuff like probability, causality, and trajectory etc on the fly while "raging". Path of bullet-time algebra?

[nickl_2000]

Crazy how we both got the same amount of points

Crap... clearly I didn't math very well when I did that. My apologies for getting the overall points wrong on those two. I checked the top ones carefully to make sure, and thought I did the rest. Clearly I didn't.

Just one more reason why I don't run these competitions.

[sleepyhead]

Crap... clearly I didn't math very well when I did that.
Honestly just realized that they got more points then me.

[RickAsWritten]

My entry is up. My absolute favorite mind-mucker of a monster is the inspiration for this warlock patron. So let me introduce...

Warlock: Otherworldly Patron – The Nilbog (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=24234446&postcount=5)

It's a first pass, and I wrote it pretty quickly, so please let me know if anything is way out of line. Thanks for the feedback in advance.

[Fnissalot]

Path of the flow zone is also up. Will fix some flavor text to it during the weekend.

Feedback:

The Nilbog patron
The spells are nice and thematic.

Reversal of fortune looks slightly too strong. In practice it can prevent 4 times as much damage as the fiend patron's similar ability per use and it will be easier to trigger it. Fiend's Dark one's blessing can trigger more times per day but I don't think the warlock will be the one dealing the killing blow regularly enough. Nilbog also gets two extra cantrips at level 1. Having it equal to warlock level + charisma instead of 2*warlock level + charisma and either prevent the damage or getting the temp. hp would be enough.

Emanate nilbogism could probable be reduced to 30 feet and still be very strong? It might also be too strong to have it both trigger on causing saves and attacking as well but since it requires concentration that should not be an issue.

Fear and low things. Nice and thematic!

Greater Nilbogism pushes two very strong abilities even stronger and removes any counterplay against the aura effect.

Way of the Stilled Tide
Overall very clean (which I like), might be a little bit on the weak side before the capstone. Knowledge is power and Perfect Clarity are nice and thematic but the class brings little otherwise. I would buff winding rivers a little as I value reaction attacks pretty low and this one is very circumstantial; give that attack a little extra damage (like roll the damage dice twice and use the highest) or make it more likely to hit (like the attack deals some of the damage even if it misses).

[RickAsWritten]

Updated the Nilbog Patron


Feedback:

The Nilbog patron

Thanks for the feedback. You were right it was a little on the strong side overall. I nerfed some stuff and move others around.

Feedback:

Solid and effective but a little plain. It could use something to give it a more thematic flair. I love Shatter the Mind. That was a good idea.

I like all the abilities and the theme, but I'm not sold that Flow Zone is the right name. Path of Computation? Path of Analysis? I love the thrown weapon bonus and the calculating nature of Third Law.

For Master of Causality, I'm a little confused by the verbiage. If you are using your reaction to make an opportunity attack, aren't you already making a melee attack against the creature who's turn it is?

[sengmeng]

My entry, the Jedi Fighter Archetype, is up.

[Rawrawrawr]

First draft of Dreamwalker Monk is up!

Anyway, for feedback:


Very nice concept - 10/10 for that. But, it's still a bit too strong, I think

The first level feature seems about the right power level.
The 6th level feature is very powerful - most Warlock 6 features give the opportunity to avoid one thing (e.g. giving disadvantage on a single attack roll or a bonus to a single save) per rest. This gives you the opportunity to avoid every attack in a round, for a whole minute, every rest.
The 10th level feature seems a bit too weak - not weak enough to make up for the strength of the other features though.
For the 14th feature, can you cast multiple Tasha's Hideous Laughter, and concentrate on all of them? That should be clarified. Either way, it's also a bit too powerful - even one Tasha's Hideous Laughter as a bonus action is powerful, and being able to turn off damage for one attack per round for a full minute per rest is also really strong.

Personally, I think the power level would be okay if the sixth level feature was once per long rest, or 1 round per rest, if you wanted to keep everything close to as-is.



The Stilled Tide seems to hit a pretty good level of power. It's features skew towards simple and passive, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but a little bit of punching up could be done (though I skew towards complex subclasses, so take that with a chunk of salt so massive it can no longer be reasonably called a grain :smalltongue: )

The third level features are solid. I like having the choice between Flurry of Blow's two unarmed attacks or Patient Defense + 1 unarmed attack. Expertise in two skills on top of that might be a bit much but probably won't break anything.
The 6th level feature decent. On average, it amounts to +20% ki points at most (realistically less, if you're spending more than one ki point per round).
The 11th level feature seems good, but slightly bland.
The 17th level feature offers solid defensive benefits - powerful, but not too bad by the standards of 17th level.




It's a cool idea, but the class features don't quite gel, in my opinion - I think the focus of the subclass should be a bit tighter.

The third level AC bonus could probably use some work - I like the idea of a bonus to AC, but keying it to Intelligence is difficult because barbarians already need two ability scores to have decent AC (plus Strength), so I feel like in play this won't amount to more than a +1, or +2 at most (the same could be said for the amount of uses for the sixth level feature).
The third and sixth level features aren't bad, but they don't really mix well with the rest of the class or subclass. The barbarian has enough tanking features that, combined with the fact that melee weapons deal more damage than thrown weapons, it doesn't really feel like there's a reason to use thrown weapons over melee weapons most of the time - and if you're not using thrown weapons, then the sixth level feature and half the third level feature aren't being used. If you want a larger focus on thrown weapons, I'd recommend making the features for them more powerful, so there's more incentive to use them more often.
The search action boost is fine.
The last feature, does it allow a second opportunity attack when making an opportunity attack? Getting an extra attack with your reaction is fine (the berserker gets something similar already), but getting a melee boost seems... counter-intuitive, when two of your class features focus on ranged weapons.




A mash-up of Battlemaster Fighter and Monk, with some ranged maneuvers thrown in (which, to be fair, pretty much sums up a jedi :smalltongue: ).

The force powers are solid overall, though you might want to add level requirements - it's a little weird that you can get powers for you lightsaber, before you get your lightsaber :smalltongue: I really like the control option of being able to do things like shove and grapple at range.
Psychic strike might be a bit too powerful - the comparable battlemaster maneuver only prones. Jedi fate might be a bit too powerful, as well, since it's basically a bard's main class feature, but useable more often and with bigger numbers at first, ending up with equal numbers and still useable nearly as many times, and more versatile since it can be used to mess with enemies in addition to empowering allies.
Lightsaber Sever is weird, but dismemberment is going to be weird no matter what in D&D, so taking it out or leaving it in is mostly a matter of personal taste. Jedi Premonition overlaps a lot with Force Block, and Force Lightning could probably afford to be buffed a bit.
Unarmored Defense and Lightsaber are side-grades more than upgrades - flavorful, but don't impact balance too much.
Jedi Reflexes and Jedi Mind Trick are very simple, but I think that's okay when the force powers provide plenty of options - though I'm a little upset you passed up the chance to make the mind trick into a suggestion-based force power.

[Fnissalot]

I like all the abilities and the theme, but I'm not sold that Flow Zone is the right name. Path of Computation? Path of Analysis? I love the thrown weapon bonus and the calculating nature of Third Law.

For Master of Causality, I'm a little confused by the verbiage. If you are using your reaction to make an opportunity attack, aren't you already making a melee attack against the creature who's turn it is?

It is inspired by the mental state called "flow" which is often refereed to as being in the zone. I agree that the name is not perfect but I think computation and such focus on the wrong parts of it? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology)

I will look over the wording, the intent is that you get an extra attack when you opportunity attack and one attack when you do the defensive reaction.




It's a cool idea, but the class features don't quite gel, in my opinion - I think the focus of the subclass should be a bit tighter.

The third level AC bonus could probably use some work - I like the idea of a bonus to AC, but keying it to Intelligence is difficult because barbarians already need two ability scores to have decent AC (plus Strength), so I feel like in play this won't amount to more than a +1, or +2 at most (the same could be said for the amount of uses for the sixth level feature).
The third and sixth level features aren't bad, but they don't really mix well with the rest of the class or subclass. The barbarian has enough tanking features that, combined with the fact that melee weapons deal more damage than thrown weapons, it doesn't really feel like there's a reason to use thrown weapons over melee weapons most of the time - and if you're not using thrown weapons, then the sixth level feature and half the third level feature aren't being used. If you want a larger focus on thrown weapons, I'd recommend making the features for them more powerful, so there's more incentive to use them more often.
The search action boost is fine.
The last feature, does it allow a second opportunity attack when making an opportunity attack? Getting an extra attack with your reaction is fine (the berserker gets something similar already), but getting a melee boost seems... counter-intuitive, when two of your class features focus on ranged weapons.




The subclass is intended to be thematically tight around being in the flow state(experience time as slowed down, super immersed in calculating how the axe you thrown might hit another goblin around a corner, while punching that pesky bugbear that runs past you), which, I agree, causes it to have a split in its mechanics. This barbarian is not intended to be at range at all time, but this subclass is not punished when it is. It only looses out on brutal criticals and reckless attacks, and the level 6 ability is pretty much an alternative to reckless attacks.

I would say that the defensive reaction lessens the need for dexterity, and the features for throwing extends this a bit. In addition, barbarians can still wear medium armors (which often is better early on anyway).

[sengmeng]

Thanks for prompt feedback. I think you were right on basically all of it. Changes made.



The force powers are solid overall, though you might want to add level requirements - it's a little weird that you can get powers for you lightsaber, before you get your lightsaber :smalltongue:
Done, with a caveat before the powers are described.


Psychic strike might be a bit too powerful - the comparable battlemaster maneuver only prones.
Changed to causing disadvantage on the next attack


Jedi fate might be a bit too powerful, as well, since it's basically a bard's main class feature, but useable more often and with bigger numbers at first, ending up with equal numbers and still useable nearly as many times, and more versatile since it can be used to mess with enemies in addition to empowering allies.
Changed to half the die roll.


Lightsaber Sever is weird, but dismemberment is going to be weird no matter what in D&D, so taking it out or leaving it in is mostly a matter of personal taste.
Agreed, but I modeled it after the ability of the sword of sharpness, which just says "you lop off one of the creatures limbs, with the effects of such a loss determined by the DM." I guess I'll add that verbiage to the description.


Jedi Premonition overlaps a lot with Force Block,
Changed so that an attack roll with your lightsaber replaces your AC or saving throw for force block, with psychic damage backlash on the caster if you succeed. Premonition unchanged.


and Force Lightning could probably afford to be buffed a bit.
Added 1d12 damage on top of the total of the dice.


Unarmored Defense and Lightsaber are side-grades more than upgrades - flavorful, but don't impact balance too much.
Lightsaber got a little added ability of being able to call it to you and also the amount of time to create one and a limit of two per jedi. Oddly, the most benefit this feature might give you is you can finesse a greatsword or halberd or glaive.


Jedi Reflexes and Jedi Mind Trick are very simple, but I think that's okay when the force powers provide plenty of options - though I'm a little upset you passed up the chance to make the mind trick into a suggestion-based force power.
Added suggestion to Jedi Mind Trick at 18th level.

[Phhase]

Soulweaver Wizard archetype is up! Turns you into a martial class, akin to Bladesinger, but with lots of mobility and evasion rather than defensive options!

Feedback soon!

[nickl_2000]

Monk - Way of the Telekinetic is up.

It is drafty and missing a whole lot of flavor, but the ideas of the abilities are down. Oh and the name, I hate the name and need something better.

[AdAstra]

Managed to get Way of the Stilled Tide up pretty fast. This is my first time competing in one of these and I'm glad to participate! Any questions or comments would be much appreciated.

[Phhase]

Feedback!


Air buffet seems decent. One thing, I think either change the name to something force-y or the damage type to sonic, since I believe force damage is supposed to be a sorta magic-energy-glowy thing. Your call.

Damnnit, now I'm imagining a midair banquet.

Telekinesis is a little odd. On the surface it looks solid, but I'd like to know exactly how finely I can manipulate things. Could I pick a lock? Hell, if I had the Warlock 7 invocation that let you wallhack, could I just turn the tumblers manually? And how exactly do you propose preventing someone from causing damage by dropping a heavy or sharp item? What's the range on this ability, and how far can you move an object in one round? Questions, maboi.

Kinetic Shield is a good idea, I like the idea of a bubble shield. However, why can't you block other types of energy? I think a good way to make it work without being OP would be to allow you to create half, three-quarter, or full cover, depending on how much ki you spend. Completely negating an area of effect ability is pretty powerful.

I like being able to fly, and love the ability to telekinese allies or enemies. However, again, I need to know how fast and how far I can do it. And if I can smack them against a wall like a sack of potatoes.

Shred from within seems fine, though it could stand a 1 or 2 ki cost bump. Would the damage type be bludgeoning?

Perhaps a good name would be way of the Kinetite?

Needs some kneading, but on a good path!



First and foremost: If you die in a dream, do you die in real life? My preference is no (But feel free to throw in a suitably nasty penalty).

Second: What can interact with your dreamform? Can incorporeal creatures like wraiths strike you? Creatures on the Ethereal Plane? What happens if you encounter another monk in dreamform? Does force damage affect/block you? What magical means can keep you out? Are there mundane means (such as walls with gorgon blood mixed into the paint) that can keep you out?

Portents and Twist Mind seem solid.

What are the limits of "Creature you are aware of?" Do they have to be in line of sight? If so, I don't really see what the point of it is. Otherwise, good.

No complaints with Dreamsight.

I've never seen such an intensely RP and non-combat information-gathering-centric monk. It's honestly a really cool idea. You've turned the monk into a detective class. Not sure how "Good" it is, but I feel like that's not the point of the subclass. I like it!



Interesting idea! Great shoutout to one of the weirdo monsters of old.

Honestly, I wouldn't mind just getting straight-up healing from reversal of fortune. As is though, it's good. One question: do the temporary hit points apply before or after you receive the reduced damage?

I love Greater Nilbogism. Sounds like a fun time. Can you have multiple targets laughing at once?

Overall solid, but I think it needs a social feature as well. Maybe the ability to turn a natural 1 on a charisma skill into a natural 20 x times per y? Could make for some hilarious RP. I'd be totally willing to lose Fear and Low Things for that.



Nice! I like the Zen-zone flavor.

Winding Rivers is cool. Could you potentially apply a Stunning Strike to the attack? Potentially to all creatures within 5 feet?

Mindfulness seems a little unclear. Wouldn't it have no effect if your Intelligence was the same or higher than your Wisdom?

Permanent Mind Blank is pretty strong, nice.

Overall, it seems ok, but a little bland/passive, with a lack of options. I'm biased towards complicated things, but still, it needs...something. A little spice.



Why only thrown weapons? I'd like to be able to make a BowBarian. Seems like it would fit nicely.

Third Law of Trajectories seems good. I wonder how it would combine with other classes.

I'm curious as to how you envision Immersed Perception being used in game, since search and investigate are things you usually do out of combat, where you're not making attacks or taking damage to perpetuate your rage. However, if you can convince me, I'll totally buy into it. I really do like the idea of rapid analysis/sherlock scanning during combat.

Master of Causality seems good, but clean up the wording a bit. Just to be clear: if you are making an attack of opportunity against a creature, Master of Causality allows you to make a second attack against the same creature, right?



Hoboy here we go. Boy, I love me some ultra-customizable subclasses.

Dice system is fine. I like the combo of Unarmored Defense and Fighter, I've been wanting a Fighter that's not a bufftank style guy.

Mind Trick is good but hear me out on this: I don't like the proficiency in Deception and Persuasion. Insight is fine because it's a sort of awareness thing but the latter two makes it feel kinda like an always-on social cheat thing. I'm not saying it's too powerful, not at all, it just doesn't jive quite right to me. Instead of the proficiency and expertises, give us weaker or non-mass suggestions at lower levels. That feels more right to me. The Mind Trick is traditionally a one-on-one sort of nudge, to me anyway. Perhaps lower levels are equivalent to the Friends spell?

Reflexes is good.

I like the flexibility Saber crafting has. A laser whip or glaive is totally rad. Energy blades in general are sweet, which is why I used them too 8).

Master, etc, etc fine, fine, let's get to the meat of it:

Da powas:

Disclaimer off the bat: I'd like it if the action costs were listed, even if it would seem otherwise obvious. It helps in understanding how the abilities can be combined, or if at all.

Force Push - Perfect, but I'd like a middle ground between 1 target and "All my dice in targets." Just being able to choose how many targets/dice I spend would be fine.

Force Leap - Nice, I love leaping attacks. I would potentially be willing to give up the enhanced attack to add another dice and jump even farther. Boing! Also, back to the disclaimer, denote the limitations. I'd like to know if I can use this twice in one round if I Dash.

Hurl Object - Pretty much perfect!

Premonition - Pretty powerful. Not sure if it should be applicable to ANY save though. Your call.

Psychic Strike - I'd prefer if this were a ranged spell attack rather than part of a melee attack. Otherwise, pretty good!

Force Choke - Pretty cool and almost perfect, but are you sure you don't wanna go with suffocation rather than bludgeoning damage?

Force Lightning - No problems here.

Throw Lightsaber - Elegantly described. Just one thing: does it return to you, or do I hafta go get it?

Guided Strike - Good, but do you have to do it before you roll the attack, or can you do it after, potentially turning a miss into a hit? And can I do it more than once to the same attack?

Lightsaber Parry - Really cool ability, would be a must-have for me. If I have resistance to the projectile's damage type, do you factor that into whether or not the projectile is deflected? And what exactly qualifies as a reflectable projectile? Could I reflect a spell that rolls a ranged attack roll? I'd sure want to. I also think using the original enemy's attack roll against the secondary target would be fine and avoid excessive bookkeeping.

Open Hand - Undecided.

Force Disarm - Potentially very powerful. Where do other objects land if you pull one of them to your hand? Personally, wouldn't mind if this was single-target.

Force Block - I feel like this could just be rolled into Lightsaber Parry.

Lightsaber Charge - Nice, but does it stack with the Charger feat? I hope so. Can you pick any or even more than one creature in your path, or only one at the end?

Surprise Attack - Not certain how strong or weak this is, needs testing. I personally probably wouldn't consider taking it.

Lightsaber Sever - Nice. Can this be applied to Throw Lightsaber? Also, hang on...

>If you are on higher ground than your opponent, they lose three limbs.
PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFHHAHA

iTs OvEr ACerAk, I HaVE tHE higH GRound!




Soulweaver feedback? Also, if anyone catches the extremely obscure reference it's making, I'll be summarily surprised.

[Fnissalot]

Feedback!


Why only thrown weapons? I'd like to be able to make a BowBarian. Seems like it would fit nicely.

Third Law of Trajectories seems good. I wonder how it would combine with other classes.

I'm curious as to how you envision Immersed Perception being used in game, since search and investigate are things you usually do out of combat, where you're not making attacks or taking damage to perpetuate your rage. However, if you can convince me, I'll totally buy into it. I really do like the idea of rapid analysis/sherlock scanning during combat.

Master of Causality seems good, but clean up the wording a bit. Just to be clear: if you are making an attack of opportunity against a creature, Master of Causality allows you to make a second attack against the same creature, right?



Thanks for the comments.

I have no real objection versus other ranged weapons. So why not?

I always thought the search action is weird and most often in my games, people search after the fights. This would let the barbarian do most of those deductions and observations while the fight persists and then after the fight already know everything. Since it will only take a bonus action, you still have your reaction and action to fight with. Barbarians do not have that much that fight for their bonus action anyway.

It is intended to give 1 extra attacks against the same target on opportunity attacks and 1 attack when you do your sense of time and space reaction.

[AdAstra]

Nice! I like the Zen-zone flavor.

Winding Rivers is cool. Could you potentially apply a Stunning Strike to the attack? Potentially to all creatures within 5 feet?

Mindfulness seems a little unclear. Wouldn't it have no effect if your Intelligence was the same or higher than your Wisdom?

Permanent Mind Blank is pretty strong, nice.

Overall, it seems ok, but a little bland/passive, with a lack of options. I'm biased towards complicated things, but still, it needs...something. A little spice.


Soulweaver feedback? Also, if anyone catches the extremely obscure reference it's making, I'll be summarily surprised.

No reason why not. In general Stunning Strike is less effective when done out of turn, and it makes you ineligible for Knowledge is Power. You're not going to be getting any more SS attempts on a single creature than you could otherwise, since you're giving up your bonus action attack/Flurry of Blows.

Your Wisdom modifier is the minimum bonus. Yeah, if your Int was equal to or higher than your Wis by this point, this would be useless, but since you're a Monk, such a stat spread would be extremely suboptimal already. It's basically a very narrow, but generally more powerful Jack of All Trades, meant to give you some decent modifiers on the skills you didn't pick with Scholarly Devotion.

It's definitely not a fancy subclass. Restrained and practical, to better fit the cerebral nature. It could probably use something else though. Probably some sort of information-gathering ability.

EDIT: Okay basically took a modified version of the Battlemaster's ability and put it at level 6.

[Phhase]

No reason why not. In general Stunning Strike is less effective when done out of turn, and it makes you ineligible for Knowledge is Power. You're not going to be getting any more SS attempts on a single creature than you could otherwise, since you're giving up your bonus action attack/Flurry of Blows.

Your Wisdom modifier is the minimum bonus. Yeah, if your Int was equal to or higher than your Wis by this point, this would be useless, but since you're a Monk, such a stat spread would be extremely suboptimal already. It's basically a very narrow, but generally more powerful Jack of All Trades, meant to give you some decent modifiers on the skills you didn't pick with Scholarly Devotion.

It's definitely not a fancy subclass. Restrained and practical, to better fit the cerebral nature. It could probably use something else though. Probably some sort of information-gathering ability.

EDIT: Okay basically took a modified version of the Battlemaster's ability and put it at level 6.

Nice. I like it, fits like a glove. Honestly, Path of Flow could use that ability too.

[AdAstra]

For Soul Weaver, the subclass feels really unfitting for wizard from a mechanical perspective (and it doesn’t feel like something that has to be a wizard subclass)? It requires high Wisdom on an Int-based class that’s also going to be in melee, making Dex essential as well. A Str-build is right out without some multiclassing, and that d6 hit die is going to cause a whole lot of problems. It’s also unclear as to what the save DC for your Soulweaver abilities is based on. I would assume Int? But that results in abilities that use your Int mod for “accuracy” and Wisdom mod for damage.

The way you did combined Force/Psychic damage seems like a rather odd concept that doesn’t really jive well with 5e’s philosophy. half-resistance/immunity isn’t so much complicated as it is completely unlike any other mechanic in the game, and not well-explained in the text. It basically works, though.

Overall though, this feels a lot more like a fighter, rogue, or maybe even monk subclass. Wizard doesn’t really bring anything to the table here, and gives the class several disadvantages it wouldn’t otherwise have.

[Rawrawrawr]

First and foremost: If you die in a dream, do you die in real life? My preference is no (But feel free to throw in a suitably nasty penalty).

The intent was no, but now I've made it official. :smallamused:



Second: What can interact with your dreamform? Can incorporeal creatures like wraiths strike you? Creatures on the Ethereal Plane? What happens if you encounter another monk in dreamform? Does force damage affect/block you? What magical means can keep you out? Are there mundane means (such as walls with gorgon blood mixed into the paint) that can keep you out?

The intent was that you can attacked (hence sharing your statistics), but that you rarely will be intentionally attacked since you're both invisible and hidden to basically anything without truesight. Hopefully that's a little clearer, after rewriting.



What are the limits of "Creature you are aware of?" Do they have to be in line of sight? If so, I don't really see what the point of it is. Otherwise, good.

None, basically - it's essentially Scrying, so the minimum is pretty much "You need to have heard of the target secondhand".



I've never seen such an intensely RP and non-combat information-gathering-centric monk. It's honestly a really cool idea. You've turned the monk into a detective class. Not sure how "Good" it is, but I feel like that's not the point of the subclass. I like it!

Thanks! I'm not sure how good it is, either :smalltongue: Flying and incorporeal movement are really strong abilities, so I tried to balance it out by not giving it too many combat upgrades - but I honestly have no idea how this would turn out in real play, haha


If you're looking for ideas, maybe Path of the Unseen Hand? That's from a 3.5 prestige class, and sounds flowery enough to be a monk path. Anyways, onto the actual review:

Air Buffet seems solid - not much else to say on that one.
Telekinesis, I feel could use some more information - like, how quickly can you move an object, and what level of finesse do you have with your control? Also it says you can use an action to move an object, but doesn't specify whether you can continue holding it in the air after your action.
For the sixth level feature, I feel like 2 points might be slightly overpriced for just advantage on a saving throw, honestly - I'm not sure this is worth two Stunning Strikes, for example, and the monk 14th level feature gives a similar ability for only 1 ki point (I know it's not exactly fair to compare 6th and 14th level features, but still). I think it could either be buffed slightly (e.g., suffer no effects on a successful save) or taken down to 1 point, but that's just me.
I also feel like the 11th level enemy flinging feature might be a bit overpriced. The general best case scenario is you fling an opponent in the air, dealing a couple of dice of falling damage, and grapple it in a place where no one is within its melee reach, effectively wasting its turn (yes, I know you might be able to fling it off of a cliff sometimes, but that's fairly situational) - but an attack action with stunning strike does something similar, but with more damage and a better shutdown ability, for 1/3 of the price. Another way to look at it is the warlock - the monk probably shouldn't be doing ranged attacks to the same degree of effectiveness as a Warlock, but there's a really big disparity right now - the Warlock can pretty easily do 3d10 + 15 damage, plus knocking back 30 feet, at this level, and can do it at will.
Flight is definitely cool for a telekinetic monk.
This ability seems pretty fairly priced. The Long Death monk can do 2d10 per ki point, and while that does a bit more than that, it's also less flexible in terms of how much ki you can pump into it. To be honest, it doesn't feel super telekinetic to me, but that's just a matter of personal taste, I think.

Overall, it's pretty solid - it's a telekinetic monk, and it feels like a telekinetic monk :smalltongue: I do feel like you can afford to be a little less conservative with abilities, though.



So, I really like the idea of a lightly armored gish with a magic blade and a whole bunch of teleport spam, but a I have few broad critiques:

The wizard is one of the most complicated classes in-play, in the game - the compensate, I think the developer's usually try to keep the subclasses relatively simple to keep track of - one major feature, either with an easy-to-keep track of number of uses (e.g., 2 or 3 Diviner rolls, or 2 Bladesongs per rest), or are always active (e.g., extra Evocation damage, solid illusions), and a few other small bonuses. The long-rest point system of this class adds a pretty significant cognitive load to that - it's not easy to immediately tell how many uses of your abilities you have left from the number of points you have (and therefore, whether it's a good time to use an ability), and the fact that they only recharge on a long rest means that you also have to be very forward thinking about how you spend them. An example of a quick and dirty fix would be that most of the abilities cost about 4 points, so you could divide the number of points given by the feature by 4 (e.g., at level 6, your Wis modifier probably isn't more than +2, so (6 + 2) / 4 = 2 points. At 20, your Wis modifier is probably +3 or +4, so just say (20 + 4) / 4 = 6 points). That would make it a lot easier to keep track of how many uses of your abilities you have left (of course, you'd have to rejigger the abilities so they're all roughly worth 4 or 8 points). Obviously, there's probably better ways of doing that, but that was just a quick and dirty example of what I was talking about.
There's also a lot of... wonkiness, to the abilities. Looking at Slice Thread, for example, the Acrobatics check to not fall prone and the varying attacks based on size add a level of detail that doesn't quite seem necessary. The very varied number of attacks makes it a bit hard to balance, which leads to a weird costing scheme (which makes it hard to plan how many points you'll need to keep in reserve throughout the day), and the inability to critically hit or fail seems to come out of left field. Or Soul Cross requires you to give up your stat bonus (something extra to remember, when you could probably just balance around a regular attack to make it easier to use in-play), use your reaction on your turn (which is not the most intuitive - it might take an extra read or two to grok the technique as a result), teleport to a very specific location, deal damage with a stat that's not normally associated with damage, and then repeat it a number of times (determined with a very wonky equation that boils down to "once most levels, maybe twice at high levels") with a slightly complicated targeting restriction for the follow-up attacks. As a result, these abilities require you to hold a lot in your mind at once during play, and are also pretty difficult to evaluate when you're picking from more than two or three options (or, say, judging them for a contest :smalltongue: ). For the complexity of the techniques, I'd look at things like the Battlemaster Fighter, Elements Monk, or Warlock Invocations as general guideline (I mean, I think you can afford to go a little more complex, but probably not to the level that they are now).
Lastly, I know you said this subclass was supposed to favor mobility over defense compared to Bladesinger, but the wizard kinda needs some level of defense to melee. You only have 1d6 HP per level and light armor/Mage Armor, on a chassis that can't afford to raise Dexterity and Constitution too high (because you need to prioritize Intelligence and Wisdom), which makes you... probably too squishy to get close to monsters. If you want a mobile melee wizard without an emphasis on defense options, then that mobility should probably be your defensive option - you should probably be able to close in 30 feet, attack, and get at least 30 feet away, in the same turn.

So yeah, overall I like the idea, but I think the complexity should really be dialed back a few notches overall, and saved for where it's really needed.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Invisible Fist Fighter is up.

I used Mage Hand as a chassis, feeling the limitations of its range and action economy were way to constrain the potential power of the archetype. From there I borrowed from Arcane Trickster to keep the feel of a Telekinetic character rather than a very specialist Wizard.

You can cast mage hand, you can choose to make it an invisible weapon like appendage instead of a hand. As you get more attacks you can get more hands and you can stretch the action economy a bit there. There a trade for defense and offense bit since the hands can be a pinpoint defense mechanism. I think this is a really solid option for Barbarian MC without being too OP.

Capstone gives you a 1/rest 5th level spell casting from a short, themed list.

Note: you have to sacrifice attacks to make attacks, I need to add wording to make that explicit as well as how weapons work if you have the hands wielding them. Presently it might read you can have the hands attack as a bonus action. It isn’t intended that way.

[nickl_2000]

Feedback!

Air buffet seems decent. One thing, I think either change the name to something force-y or the damage type to sonic, since I believe force damage is supposed to be a sorta magic-energy-glowy thing. Your call.



I struggled with the damage type here to be honest. I didn't want it to be straight bludgeoning since monks have that up the wazoo already. I've always struggled with my mind cannon for thunder damage, but that is likely the most appropriate type for this.





Telekinesis is a little odd. On the surface it looks solid, but I'd like to know exactly how finely I can manipulate things. Could I pick a lock? Hell, if I had the Warlock 7 invocation that let you wallhack, could I just turn the tumblers manually? And how exactly do you propose preventing someone from causing damage by dropping a heavy or sharp item? What's the range on this ability, and how far can you move an object in one round? Questions, maboi.



I knew it would be... I tried to get my ideas out there to see what would stick and what wouldn't. Thanks for throwing the questions out there so that I can resolve them. Also, I think using this to wall hack would be an awesome use. If you are willing to be that MAD, I think it fits.





Kinetic Shield is a good idea, I like the idea of a bubble shield. However, why can't you block other types of energy? I think a good way to make it work without being OP would be to allow you to create half, three-quarter, or full cover, depending on how much ki you spend. Completely negating an area of effect ability is pretty powerful.



Not bad, I will consider it in the updates. I chose damage types that would make sense for a telekenetic shield to block. Blocking psychic, radiant, and necrotic doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, but I could probably increase it to more.



I like being able to fly, and love the ability to telekinese allies or enemies. However, again, I need to know how fast and how far I can do it. And if I can smack them against a wall like a sack of potatoes.


Yup, I was trying to avoid being to wordy but I don't think it is possible. I will likely split the level 11 ability into two different abilities to make it much more clear.











If you're looking for ideas, maybe Path of the Unseen Hand? That's from a 3.5 prestige class, and sounds flowery enough to be a monk path. Anyways, onto the actual review:

Air Buffet seems solid - not much else to say on that one.
Telekinesis, I feel could use some more information - like, how quickly can you move an object, and what level of finesse do you have with your control? Also it says you can use an action to move an object, but doesn't specify whether you can continue holding it in the air after your action.
For the sixth level feature, I feel like 2 points might be slightly overpriced for just advantage on a saving throw, honestly - I'm not sure this is worth two Stunning Strikes, for example, and the monk 14th level feature gives a similar ability for only 1 ki point (I know it's not exactly fair to compare 6th and 14th level features, but still). I think it could either be buffed slightly (e.g., suffer no effects on a successful save) or taken down to 1 point, but that's just me.
I also feel like the 11th level enemy flinging feature might be a bit overpriced. The general best case scenario is you fling an opponent in the air, dealing a couple of dice of falling damage, and grapple it in a place where no one is within its melee reach, effectively wasting its turn (yes, I know you might be able to fling it off of a cliff sometimes, but that's fairly situational) - but an attack action with stunning strike does something similar, but with more damage and a better shutdown ability, for 1/3 of the price. Another way to look at it is the warlock - the monk probably shouldn't be doing ranged attacks to the same degree of effectiveness as a Warlock, but there's a really big disparity right now - the Warlock can pretty easily do 3d10 + 15 damage, plus knocking back 30 feet, at this level, and can do it at will.
Flight is definitely cool for a telekinetic monk.
This ability seems pretty fairly priced. The Long Death monk can do 2d10 per ki point, and while that does a bit more than that, it's also less flexible in terms of how much ki you can pump into it. To be honest, it doesn't feel super telekinetic to me, but that's just a matter of personal taste, I think.

Overall, it's pretty solid - it's a telekinetic monk, and it feels like a telekinetic monk :smalltongue: I do feel like you can afford to be a little less conservative with abilities, though.




Thank you for all the comments. I need to process a little more and compare and contrast to other comments, but I really really appreciate it!

[sengmeng]

Slowly doing some feedback. Will add them all to this post, so check back as I get to yours.

There's a lot that I like here. Ranged damage becomes easier, using your hands for other things, wielding way more items than you should be able to, etc. Fun and flavorful and I would allow it in a campaign, and probably take it myself if it really fit a character concept that I was playing. However, dealing damage with your mage hands means needing a high int, which means probably abandoning strength (not a huge issue, because why do this unless you want to be a ranged damage dealer?), which could make for a rough time at your first two levels as you lug around your massive brain without it helping in combat. I don't feel that Eldritch knight suffers the same way, because you probably wouldn't need to pump int to the same level to be a decent Eldritch knight. Overall, I think it's good, and it expands the fighter's capabilities in a fun way. I may need to read over it again to make sure I understand it properly, so keep in mind that it's also a bit complex and maybe look for ways to tighten and clarify the wording if possible.

[nickl_2000]

Monk - Way of the Telekinetic - Pretty big changes


Changed Air Buffets to be thunder damage
Cleaned up Telekinesis to answer all questions hopefully
Made kinetic Shield give resistance and reduced Ki cost
Split level 11 into two abilities and made throwing enemies around do damage.
Trashed the last ability and make it completely different.

[sleepyhead]

Dipped my toe in with the Doll sorcerer origin, still needs some work.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Slowly doing some feedback. Will add them all to this post, so check back as I get to yours.

There's a lot that I like here. Ranged damage becomes easier, using your hands for other things, wielding way more items than you should be able to, etc. Fun and flavorful and I would allow it in a campaign, and probably take it myself if it really fit a character concept that I was playing. However, dealing damage with your mage hands means needing a high int, which means probably abandoning strength (not a huge issue, because why do this unless you want to be a ranged damage dealer?), which could make for a rough time at your first two levels as you lug around your massive brain without it helping in combat. I don't feel that Eldritch knight suffers the same way, because you probably wouldn't need to pump int to the same level to be a decent Eldritch knight. Overall, I think it's good, and it expands the fighter's capabilities in a fun way. I may need to read over it again to make sure I understand it properly, so keep in mind that it's also a bit complex and maybe look for ways to tighten and clarify the wording if possible.

Thanks so much for your feedback.

Yes, so much of the wording needs a thrice over. I think you’d be okay with a serviceable Dex and medium armor to start, but I can see it being a challenge to wrap your head around.

[nickl_2000]

Finally a little bit of free time to provide feedback


A good look at a telekenetic fighter, there are a few inconsistencies that need cleaned up though.

3-Mind Over Matter - The weight, does that mean that it uses the carry capacity of a normal creature where it weight it multiplied by your int instead of strength? The language here could use some cleaning up. Also, can the mage hand pick up creatures?

Ballistics - My gut on this was that it was to powerful since it was at all. However casters are casting level 4 spells already so at will 3d8 verses 2x 1d8+dex is about the same.

Applied Thought - This is a little bit out of flavor in my mind. Your mage hand from level 3 is not suitable for fine manipulation. Then here at level 10 it helps with tool use checks. That doesn't seem to fit all that well.




An interesting way to take a monk. I do struggle with the fast there there is very little in the way of combat assistance here. The monk can scout incredibly well, but they get very little. Additionally, there isn't much that uses your Ki (which is pretty standard for a monk). If it were me, I would look at dropping dream portent and putting something in there that could directly assist the combat tier, but it isn't my subclass :smallbiggrin:

Dreamwalk - I had to laugh at the impressionist painting description. Just a good way to describe it. What actions are allowed to a dreamwalker? Are they only able to dash and enter dreams? Or can they do something else? Can you cast spells while dreamwalking?

Dream Portents - While it's not unheard of to do x per long rest casting, it is way more common to allow Monk to cast using their Ki points.

Projected Dreamself What does "creature that you are aware of" mean exactly? Someone you can see? Someone you know? This needs to be fleshed out more than it is to be easily understandable.




First things first, I adore the Nilbog. So, I'm excited to see where this goes!

Emanate Nilbogism - I would flat out say that this requires concentration rather than the way you phrase it. When reading, I am not sure if I can have the aura and hex going at the same time or not. Also, when you say attack what does it apply for? Melee, Ranged, Spell Melee, Spell Ranged, AoE?

Greater Nilbogism - So how many versions of Tashas can you have going at once? Only 1 at a time, or can you have multiple since it's the same concentration as your aura?

Overall this is very solid and a great implementation of the idea. A small thing that may be worth considering is when you have your aura active, healing spells actually hurt you. That is one aspect of the Nilbog that you don't have represented in this subclass that could make it even more interesting.






welcome to the party! Glad you decided to join us. When you are putting in abilities, make sure that you add the class levels or make them a little more obvious.

Scholarly Devotion - There is a whole lot going on here. 1 tool, 1 language (mostly fluff), 2 skills with expertise, and guidance. It feels like to much to me. I would either give a cantrip that isn't as universally useful (guidance is just plain awesome), not give expertise on the skills, or only give 1 skills prof and expertise. I think that would tame it enough for me

Winding Rivers Cleave Through Mountains - I like this. I mean, I really like this ability. I don't see much that needs to be changed.

Level 11 is to much. You effectively have 3 skills here. Reactions to attack everyone around you, Stunning Strike targeting wisdom, mindfulness. I would look to drop one of these to make a more balanced level. Mindfulness is a little odd in phrasing. The typical phrasing you see is "When you make an intelligence check or save, you may use your wisdom modifier in place of your intelligence modifier."

Perfect Clarity - You are constantly under the effect of both an 8th level spell and a 6th level spell. Even for a capstone that is a little much. From a flavor of the class, Mind Blank seems perfect and is (at least in my opinion) a solid and good capstone.


You have a solid subclass here. It introduces a new playstyle for the monk, which is not entirely easy, and not everything is based on combat. Fix the couple of times where it gets to powerful and you will have a really, really solid and fun subclass to play.




Assuming Barbarian since it's a Path and other things. I know, I'm picky about mentioning this....

Sense of Time and Space -
Does the reaction need to be limited to an amount of times per day? I know it's intelligence and all, and only during rage. I was just wondering.
The second paragraph could be simplified into "...you may apply your rage damage bonus to ranged weapon attacks"


The Third Law of Trajectories - Thanks for not making this better than the Arcane Archer. Although I would consider making it take a bonus action since you also get Advantage.

Immersed Perception - How does raging make you search more effectively? This seems like an edge case enough that it doesn't need to be done while raging. Just open it up for the barbarian to be an all the time thing.

Master of Causality - Powerwise this seems fine to me. Wording wise it needs to be cleaned up though. You don't need the raging in the first sentence since Sense of Time and Space only applies while raging.

The ranged throwing Barbarian is a niche that needs filling and I think this does a decent job of it. I look forward to seeing the flavor that explains the whys of things.





Jedi? What is this Jedi thing you are talking about?

Power - On power per attack action or attack? Just checking to see. Also, looks like there is a copy and paste error where you have maneuver when replacing powers.


Hurl Object - Adding both wis and dex is likely going to break bounded accuracy. I would pick one of the other.
Throw Lightsaber - Probably should add auto-return here.
Force Disarm - This is broken, I mean really, really broken. You can disarm up to 8 creatures at once at level 3?
Force Block - This needs to be a reaction, and we need to know if it is done before or after we know if it hits.
Lightsaber Sever - Cool, fitting, but really broken. I would drop this entirely to be honest.


Jedi Mind Trick - Seems like to much giving expertise in all of that. Maybe reduce the amount of skills you can get it in? The mass suggestions is cool, flavorful, and fitting though.

It's a jedi, and the force powers are a good representation of what a jedi can do. I think there are a few things that need rebalanced, and I'm a little concerned about radiant damage on the lightsabre (although it is probably fine).






Familiar Shapes - title seems off here since it doesn't actually impact a wizard's familiar. What fighting styles do you get to choose from? All of them?
Conjure Soulblades - Level 2 still? I'm not sure what "though they do not lose any mass" means here. Can you summon both soulblades in the same bonus action?
Afterimage Lunge - Can you pass through walls or only creatures?
Slice Thread - If it were me, I would make the cost variable and small creatures cost on 2 threads, but that is just me :)
Soul Cross - I don't see a need for a save here for half. Since you are only doing prof bonus damage it just doesn't seem like a big deal to just do full damage.









Mind bow - The wording can be tightened up here, but that is an aside. What metamagic can impact the bow? Twin, Quicken? It may be significantly easier if you were to create a new ranged cantrip that does what you want it to do rather than making a bow and trying to fit your ideal into that. This is especially rife for abuse from multiclassing (currently by RAW, a Doll Sorcerer 1/Fighter 19 gets 3 attacks at 4d8 + dex each round).

Mind Pierce
Blackout needs a save or something when it hits. It's to powerful as is currently.
No 4th level spell effect?

Everything else looks good to me. :)



Phew now I'm caught up!

[BerzerkerUnit]

Finally a little bit of free time to provide feedback


A good look at a telekenetic fighter, there are a few inconsistencies that need cleaned up though.

3-Mind Over Matter - The weight, does that mean that it uses the carry capacity of a normal creature where it weight it multiplied by your int instead of strength? The language here could use some cleaning up. Also, can the mage hand pick up creatures?

Ballistics - My gut on this was that it was to powerful since it was at all. However casters are casting level 4 spells already so at will 3d8 verses 2x 1d8+dex is about the same.

Applied Thought - This is a little bit out of flavor in my mind. Your mage hand from level 3 is not suitable for fine manipulation. Then here at level 10 it helps with tool use checks. That doesn't seem to fit all that well.





Thanks so much for your feedback.

Yes, the strength of the Hand is much greater than normal when used in its combat form. The intent is that you could move other characters or even grant yourself a crude form of flight, but I didn’t make it explicit since many DMs loathe flight abilities before upper levels.

Re: Applied Thought
note it says something like “at your option the hand can assume the form of...” and that makes it bulky and unsuitable for fine manipulation.

Applied Thought requires the normal manifestation of mage hand with its 10lb limit. This creates an action economy limitation as you’d have to recast to switch from picking locks to fighting.

As stated up thread it needs some language tuning, but I think it’s solid on concept and power for level.

[sleepyhead]

Mind bow - The wording can be tightened up here, but that is an aside. What metamagic can impact the bow? Twin, Quicken? It may be significantly easier if you were to create a new ranged cantrip that does what you want it to do rather than making a bow and trying to fit your ideal into that. This is especially rife for abuse from multiclassing (currently by RAW, a Doll Sorcerer 1/Fighter 19 gets 3 attacks at 4d8 + dex each round).

Mind Pierce
Blackout needs a save or something when it hits. It's to powerful as is currently.
No 4th level spell effect?

Everything else looks good to me. :)


Mindbow- Fixed? I think
Mind Pierce- Blackout has a bunch of saves already
Working on the 4th level effect bit.
Thanks for the critique .

[AdAstra]

[SPOILER=Monk- Way of the Stilled Tide]

welcome to the party! Glad you decided to join us. When you are putting in abilities, make sure that you add the class levels or make them a little more obvious.

Scholarly Devotion - There is a whole lot going on here. 1 tool, 1 language (mostly fluff), 2 skills with expertise, and guidance. It feels like to much to me. I would either give a cantrip that isn't as universally useful (guidance is just plain awesome), not give expertise on the skills, or only give 1 skills prof and expertise. I think that would tame it enough for me

Winding Rivers Cleave Through Mountains - I like this. I mean, I really like this ability. I don't see much that needs to be changed.

Level 11 is to much. You effectively have 3 skills here. Reactions to attack everyone around you, Stunning Strike targeting wisdom, mindfulness. I would look to drop one of these to make a more balanced level. Mindfulness is a little odd in phrasing. The typical phrasing you see is "When you make an intelligence check or save, you may use your wisdom modifier in place of your intelligence modifier."

Perfect Clarity - You are constantly under the effect of both an 8th level spell and a 6th level spell. Even for a capstone that is a little much. From a flavor of the class, Mind Blank seems perfect and is (at least in my opinion) a solid and good capstone.


You have a solid subclass here. It introduces a new playstyle for the monk, which is not entirely easy, and not everything is based on combat. Fix the couple of times where it gets to powerful and you will have a really, really solid and fun subclass to play.


I used the standard format that's used in the books just to fit the base game's style. Every ability states when you get it, so I'm not too worried. Might clean it up a little though.

This is basically a slightly tweaked version of the Knowledge Cleric's 1st level ability plus a (admittedly very good) cantrip. I could probably ditch Guidance, but the proficiencies look a lot more impactful than they actually are. Expertise in two knowledge skills won't break anything, especially when Monks only get 2 skills to begin with (+2 background).

Two spells permanently is strong, but they're both fairly situational spells. If I had to choose between Mind Blank and Truesight, I'd probably pick Truesight instead and add a little something extra.

I considered three abilities acceptable because two are just upgrades to existing features. I'll probably move the WRCTM upgrade to 17 if I get rid of Mind Blank or Truesight, though. That should clear things out.

Mindfulness is specifically not supposed to work like that. When I say your Wisdom modifier is the minimum bonus to your roll, I mean that it's the minimum bonus to your roll. It's not replacing your Intelligence modifier, it's replacing whatever bonus you would otherwise have, so no proficiency or situational bonuses (other than advantage). If you have a +4 to Wisdom, your minimum bonus to any Intelligence check or Saving Throw is +4. It's not very strong and was never intended to be. Think of it like Barkskin.

EDIT: I think I'll change Mindfulness to just allow you to use your Wis mod instead of Int. It clearly causes a lot of confusion doing it the previous way. The feature ends up stronger, but it's not a huge deal after moving the WRCTM improvement up to 17th. I'm also gonna change Knowledge is Power to slightly boost the amount of ki points it gives. As is, in the best case scenario, it'll give you 20% more ki points. If you're spending more than 1 ki point per turn, or spending ki outside of your turn, you'll get even less.

[Phhase]

So, I really like the idea of a lightly armored gish with a magic blade and a whole bunch of teleport spam,

The wizard is one of the most complicated classes in-play, in the game - the compensate, I think the developer's usually try to keep the subclasses relatively simple to keep track of - one major feature, either with an easy-to-keep track of number of uses (e.g., 2 or 3 Diviner rolls, or 2 Bladesongs per rest), or are always active (e.g., extra Evocation damage, solid illusions), and a few other small bonuses. The long-rest point system of this class adds a pretty significant cognitive load to that - it's not easy to immediately tell how many uses of your abilities you have left from the number of points you have (and therefore, whether it's a good time to use an ability), and the fact that they only recharge on a long rest means that you also have to be very forward thinking about how you spend them. An example of a quick and dirty fix would be that most of the abilities cost about 4 points, so you could divide the number of points given by the feature by 4 (e.g., at level 6, your Wis modifier probably isn't more than +2, so (6 + 2) / 4 = 2 points. At 20, your Wis modifier is probably +3 or +4, so just say (20 + 4) / 4 = 6 points). That would make it a lot easier to keep track of how many uses of your abilities you have left (of course, you'd have to rejigger the abilities so they're all roughly worth 4 or 8 points). Obviously, there's probably better ways of doing that, but that was just a quick and dirty example of what I was talking about.
There's also a lot of... wonkiness, to the abilities. Looking at Slice Thread, for example, the Acrobatics check to not fall prone and the varying attacks based on size add a level of detail that doesn't quite seem necessary. The very varied number of attacks makes it a bit hard to balance, which leads to a weird costing scheme (which makes it hard to plan how many points you'll need to keep in reserve throughout the day), and the inability to critically hit or fail seems to come out of left field. Or Soul Cross requires you to give up your stat bonus (something extra to remember, when you could probably just balance around a regular attack to make it easier to use in-play), use your reaction on your turn (which is not the most intuitive - it might take an extra read or two to grok the technique as a result), teleport to a very specific location, deal damage with a stat that's not normally associated with damage, and then repeat it a number of times (determined with a very wonky equation that boils down to "once most levels, maybe twice at high levels") with a slightly complicated targeting restriction for the follow-up attacks. As a result, these abilities require you to hold a lot in your mind at once during play, and are also pretty difficult to evaluate when you're picking from more than two or three options (or, say, judging them for a contest :smalltongue: ). For the complexity of the techniques, I'd look at things like the Battlemaster Fighter, Elements Monk, or Warlock Invocations as general guideline (I mean, I think you can afford to go a little more complex, but probably not to the level that they are now).
Lastly, I know you said this subclass was supposed to favor mobility over defense compared to Bladesinger, but the wizard kinda needs some level of defense to melee. You only have 1d6 HP per level and light armor/Mage Armor, on a chassis that can't afford to raise Dexterity and Constitution too high (because you need to prioritize Intelligence and Wisdom), which makes you... probably too squishy to get close to monsters. If you want a mobile melee wizard without an emphasis on defense options, then that mobility should probably be your defensive option - you should probably be able to close in 30 feet, attack, and get at least 30 feet away, in the same turn.

So yeah, overall I like the idea, but I think the complexity should really be dialed back a few notches overall, and saved for where it's really needed.


Thanks for the feedback! I agree on many points, though are you sure about wizard being the most complex? I think sorcery points could give it a run for its money. I've made some changes accordingly, PEACH.
Changelog!
Familiar Shapes --> A Familiar Shape (lol)

The mass thing is just for flavor, really. Means they still have weight/are material.

Slice Thread Simplified - The Acrobatics thing was more a like a "how I would rule it if the landing space was occupied" detail, not necessary you right.

Afterimage lunge now travels 20ft and is an action or bonus action by default. Language cleaned up (you cannot go through walls).

Language changed to make clear that one can use a bonus action to summon or dismiss both Soulblades if they are 1-handed.

Soulblades now have modified critical strike behavior.

Soul Cross is now simplified and learned by default. It is also upgraded by Razored Soul the same way as Afterimage Lunge is.

Soulblade's Retribution is now simpler and called Soulblade's Doom.

Soulbind simplified.

Soul Sequester no longer limits you if you buff an ally.

Technique costs and spool size simplified. Now basically sorcery points.

Fuel Soul and Razored Soul adjusted for decreased threadcount.

Added Soul Phase, a defensive blink option.



Notes:
Yeah, any fighting style.

[Fnissalot]

Assuming Barbarian since it's a Path and other things. I know, I'm picky about mentioning this....

Sense of Time and Space -
Does the reaction need to be limited to an amount of times per day? I know it's intelligence and all, and only during rage. I was just wondering.
The second paragraph could be simplified into "...you may apply your rage damage bonus to ranged weapon attacks"


The Third Law of Trajectories - Thanks for not making this better than the Arcane Archer. Although I would consider making it take a bonus action since you also get Advantage.

Immersed Perception - How does raging make you search more effectively? This seems like an edge case enough that it doesn't need to be done while raging. Just open it up for the barbarian to be an all the time thing.

Master of Causality - Powerwise this seems fine to me. Wording wise it needs to be cleaned up though. You don't need the raging in the first sentence since Sense of Time and Space only applies while raging.

The ranged throwing Barbarian is a niche that needs filling and I think this does a decent job of it. I look forward to seeing the flavor that explains the whys of things.




Thanks for the comments!
Added descriptive texts which mentions barbarians and updated some wordings as you mentioned them. Third law of trajectories was changed so that you can do a bonus action while raging to get advantage on the ricochet.

Sense of time and space is only limited to when you rage, not to rests in any other way.

Immersed perception is supposed to be thematic. You feel more perceptive and aware while being in the zone. It turns your rages into detective mode in modern video games.

[RickAsWritten]

Updated the Nilbog Patron. See Changelog


Rev:1
Reduced damage reduction of Reversal of Fortune from 2 x Warlock level to 1 x Warlock level.
Reduced range of Nilbogism aura from 60 feet to 30 feet. Added range increase to 14th level feature.
Moved spell saving throws triggering Nilbogism to 14th level feature.
Removed non-concentration boon from Greater Nilbogism.
Removed extended charm for failed saves from Greater Nilbogism.
Clarified Tasha’s casting in the Greater Nilbogism ability.
Rev:2
Changed Emanate Nilbogism to recharge on a Long Rest.
Rev:3
Added a goblin friendliness to Fear and Low Things. Lowly goblins would never dare to attack a Nilbog.
Added a healing restriction to Nilbogism to better align with Nilbog statblock.
Clarified that attack rolls cause Nilbogism to activate.
Made several minor spelling and grammatical changes.






Interesting idea! Great shoutout to one of the weirdo monsters of old.

Honestly, I wouldn't mind just getting straight-up healing from reversal of fortune. As is though, it's good. One question: do the temporary hit points apply before or after you receive the reduced damage?

I love Greater Nilbogism. Sounds like a fun time. Can you have multiple targets laughing at once?

Overall solid, but I think it needs a social feature as well. Maybe the ability to turn a natural 1 on a charisma skill into a natural 20 x times per y? Could make for some hilarious RP. I'd be totally willing to lose Fear and Low Things for that.


Thanks! Temp hit points come after. I clarified it.
Only one Tasha's at a time, but if a creature saves and gets rid of it, you can just cast it again.
I considered a social feature, but decided to stick with Fear and Low Things. I added a new note that goblins will consider you a friendly until you hurt them. Stole the wording from the Gulthias Staff in Curse of Strahd.



First things first, I adore the Nilbog. So, I'm excited to see where this goes!

Emanate Nilbogism - I would flat out say that this requires concentration rather than the way you phrase it. When reading, I am not sure if I can have the aura and hex going at the same time or not. Also, when you say attack what does it apply for? Melee, Ranged, Spell Melee, Spell Ranged, AoE?

Greater Nilbogism - So how many versions of Tashas can you have going at once? Only 1 at a time, or can you have multiple since it's the same concentration as your aura?

Overall this is very solid and a great implementation of the idea. A small thing that may be worth considering is when you have your aura active, healing spells actually hurt you. That is one aspect of the Nilbog that you don't have represented in this subclass that could make it even more interesting.



Thanks for the feedback nickl! I ripped the phrasing for Emanate Nilbogism directly from the Trickery Cleric's Invoke Duplicity, so the concentration aspect should be well enough defined. I clarified what an attack was; good catch.
Defined the limits of the free Tasha's usage. It's meant to be only cast on one target, but is re-castable if the creature passes it's save.
I added the "no healing" bit. Thanks again.

[BerzerkerUnit]

Updated language on Invisible Fist Fighter. Minor tweaks too.

[sengmeng]

Feedback. I decided to create new posts, rather than add to my first feedbak post.

I try not to be too harsh with feedback, but I would not take this subclass as is. I don't know if it's underpowered, but it is underflavored. It does what it says it would do, so there's that, and it seems balanced, but I wouldn't be particularly interested. I like the shield feature, and the final one is flavorful, but I'd increase the damage. Maybe do allow the lower levels to do some in combat useful things? I do kind of like the Air Buffet too, but it's just fists at a distance, and running up to enemies isn't a problem for monks, so letting them do things at a distance doesn't help them that much. I'd like to see weapons made of telekinetic energy too, changing the damage type to something other than bludgeoning. I really hate to rag on you without suggestions to improve, but I got nothing else. He's certainly a telekinetic monk though.

I like this, and I'm not really sure why. I don't think I would use it, though. It's certainly flavorful, and astral projection is attributed to the real world equivalent of monks, but it's missing a lot of combat utility. I like what's there, but information gathering and social manipulation are not going to fit every campaign. I'd suggest something more universally useful. Sorry I don't have anything super useful to suggest

I like it. Bonus spells are good, features are fine. I'm confused as to why Emanate Nilbogism limits how you can be healed, but it's not a huge issue. I'd probably take this if I was inclined to play a Warlock; trickster is a natural fit for them that is sadly lacking.

[AdAstra]

Okay, I think I have an idea for the 17th level feature that keeps the power at an acceptable level but still has all the interesting bits:

Perfect Clarity
Starting at 17th level, your mind is as boundless and clear as a perfect, tranquil ocean, free from the influence of gods and mortals alike. You are always under the effects of the Mind Blank spell.

You can open your mind, allowing you to see things as they really are, at a cost. As an action, you may gain the effects of the True Seeing spell for an hour. Until that hour ends, you lose the effects of Mind Blank.

Also changed the main post to reflect this.

[sengmeng]

More feedback

I like this. I'd like for it to exist in a campaign, but I don't know if I'd take it for my own character. On the other hand, I never feel like playing a straightforward monk; I usually dip a couple levels just to punch things and move fast, with no desire to roleplay a contemplative character. So it has good flavor, and it mixes fluff and mechanics into a reasonable fighting style. I especially like shatter the mind; creatures with low wisdom suffer for their brutishness, but you also can wreck wizards, as long as you guess who should be attacked with which version. Versatility is fun. Finally, Mind Blank is good and powerful, but I worry that it doesn't compare so favorably to the more offence oriented core subclasses. If anything, your subclass is too reasonable; it works, it's balanced, I wouldn't worry about it breaking the game, but I don't know if it would draw in all that many players.

It seems really all over the place, like you want a cerebral investigative barbarian, but it doesn't have a true focus. I doubt I'd ever take this class. Not sure what else to say, and I'd really like to be somewhat more helpful than that. Maybe more defensive abilities? More use out of the Intelligence ability?

[AdAstra]

Okay, made one last change to the level 17 improvement to WRCTM. Now it’s a little more powerful against single targets, but still encourages you to leap into a horde of mooks and wear em down. Probably won’t make any more revisions after this

[Phhase]

Changes to Soulweaver!

-Codified the Soulblade into a weapon template.

-Added an ammo stipulation for a ranged soulblade.

-Slight change to summoning behavior.

-Techniques are now called Soul Arts

-Triggering Soulblade's Doom no longer counts as using a Soul Art that turn.

-Shared damage through Soulbind is no longer converted to Force/Psychic

-Dismissing Sequester Soul now requires no action.

-Razored Soul now adds 15ft per strand and allows you to move through spaces occupied by creatures freely.

-Weaver's Will now grants an extra Soul Art at 10th level

-New Soul Art: Soul Superposition. Allows you to blink away from attacks. Requires Concentration.

-New Soul Art: Soulfire. Allows you to pay a decent amount of Thought-Thread to convert a spell's damage to Force/Psychic.

-Provisionally, Soul Cross, Soulbind, Soulblade's Doom, Soul Parry, and Affix Soul no longer require the enemy to be within 30ft of you (Just Line of Sight). PEACH, is that too good? I wanted to support the possibility of a ranged Soulweaver (Though I did primarily design for melee).

Thoughts?

Addendum: Soulfire no longer costs a bonus action, no longer counts as using a Soul Art that turn, and counts as a Soulblade attack for the purposes of Arts like Soulblade's Doom. Soul Arts the require hitting with a Soulblade now also work if the enemy has been hit by a Soul Art.

My thoughts on other's changes:

Nice. You've tidied this up well. I really like Third Law now. Do you like, slap the projectile away with your hand? Or are you required to have some sort of deflector like a Gauntlet or a Shield? That might be neat for flavor, but not required imo.

I am become Attack of Opportunity: The Class.



Preface, add some formatting please, just for ease of reading.

Mind Over Matter: A Fighter version of the Arcane Trickster thing. Interesting. It's got a LOT of power at level 3, if I'm looking at it right. It's flexible too, which I really like. Could the hands operate a Magic Item for you as a bonus action, such as a Decanter of Endless Water? I love the image of a guy with a rifle, with several other rifles floating in the air beside him. One man fusillade!

If you attack the enemy with a mage hand that is behind them while you attack from the opposite side, can you flank with yourself?

If a weapon requires ammunition, but is 1-handed, can a hand fire it alone (albeit once)?

Ballistics: Does what it needs to. Good enough.

Applied Thought: Interesting Jack of All Trades application! I think it fits, given the high flexibility already endemic here.

Telekinetic Smite: To clarify, using this ability prevents you from also attacking via hands, right? I think it could stand to be a bit better. Perhaps add knockback, and limit it to (Stat modifier) times per long rest?

Kineticist: Not bad! I like the short rest cooldown, though I can't speak to the power level.

All in all, good work! I'll admit, I went in thinking I wouldn't like it, but the sheer flexibility you're offering here makes me actually want to try playing it.



Looks good! Much tidier.

Fling Aside is pretty funny, I like it. I haven't seen quite that sort of ability before.



Just to clarify, if your dreamself is reduced to 0, your body is too, right? BUT, are you stable?

Huh. Interesting what you've done here. It's basically scouting: the Subclass. I wonder what it would be like played to max potential. It would be interesting to watch, for sure.



Nice, much sleeker.

Just to clarify, "Cannot be healed" also means "Cannot receive temporary hitpoints", right?

You've created a really weird and kooky tank subclass here. I like it.



Perfect Clarity is just right now, I like it.

Mindfulness still befuddles me a little. The subclass reads as Int-focused...although I know Monk's secondary stat is Wis...huh. I guess that's why? I don't know. I guess it makes mechanical sense, to avoid being MAD, but something in my head just kind of doesn't get it flavor-wise. Not saying it's bad, just a little odd to me.

Otherwise, looks good! This is another subclass that I'm really curious how it would look in action.



Is this a Bloodborne reference? Or something else? Curious. Needs a smidge more fluff.

Applying metamagic to a weapon, interesting....would you consider allowing the use of Energy Substitution (Or whatever it's called, the Class Variant metamagics) on the bow? And why no Extra attack? you'd be multiclassing anyway.

I like the mechanic of "Bow Spells". Perhaps I could've used that concept. Guess I like secondary resources too much.

I find it funny that Brodcast is telepathy but you need to shoot the message into their head.

Blackout seems really good. Like, REALLY good, especially for requiring a 1st level slot. Nightmare Invasion is likewise really good, but more balanced since it allows more saving throws. Odd mix of spells. Good, but perhaps there could stand to be a few more.

Occupied Mind is funny. I really wonder how the backlash would be fluffed. Could be either really funny, or really spooky. Otherwise, solid.

Splitting Shot is one of those game-changers that operate by virtue of a simple dash of flexibility. My favorite. Potentially quite powerful.

[AdAstra]

Okay I've been lacking on the feedback, but now seems like a pretty good time since a lot of early things have been ironed out.

Being able to create up to four hands, each providing +1 AC, for +5 total when one is holding a shield, seems a little bit out there (unless the hands are not meant to stack). Overall it's also a lot of text for one ability.

The 7th level ability seems a a little...redundant? It's pretty weak, and you already have plenty of ranged attack options from weapons and your mage hands.

10th is non-combat and kinda situational, but pretty neat.

15th level is a rather strong, but considering the utter lack of combat features at 7 and 10 I doubt it'll throw anything off too badly.

18th is definitely thematic, but probably trends on the weak side. One 5th level spell per long rest won't break anything for sure.


Overall, this feels a little weirdly structured. Rather than an even mix of combat and non-combat tools, you have a very powerful thing at the beginning (pretty par for the course for fighter though), then nothing of significant value until 15th level. The interesting abilities are mostly too weak or situational to be used often, while the strong abilities are extremely boring (extra AC, extra weapon damage). The theme however, is very strong, and the primary mechanic is very interesting apart from the AC

Neat theme, similar to the first, but telekinetic abilities are always welcome in my book.

3rd level feels kinda just like a worse version of the Sun Soul Monk's ability. It has more range, but extra attack doesn't allow you to make two attacks with it, and it lacks a Flurry of Blows-style ability. At the very least you should allow it to replace all of your attacks in the Attack action. One ranged attack and one melee attack don't mix, since a hostile creature within 5 feet gives disadvantage on ranged attacks.

The weight and speed limits on telekinesis should prevent anything too ridiculous. Fun ability.

Kinetic Shield seems powerful, but not unduly so, just enough to feel awesome to use. Now you have a reaction to mitigate most ranged damage, when combined with Deflect Missiles.

Flight at 11th level is earlier than usual, but not early enough to be of any concern. Also fun, thematic, and useful

This ability seems a little confusing. If you spend a ki point to keep the grapple going, can you drag/damage them next turn? Does it cost a third ki point or can you just do it?

The 17th level ability seems a little weird/strong to have as an at-will ability

Overall, neat theme and interesting mechanics, but the wording and balance needs a little cleaning up


A lot of very neat abilities, but very few can be applied to non-RP situations. For RP, it's kinda, too strong? You have a bunch of different ways to mess with people. Interesting, but definitely not something I would want in a campaign

Very fun, doesn't seem out of wack balance-wise, an excellent subclass that I'd love to see played.

Very neat theme, but seems rather strong for an archer build. Maybe restrict the bonus damage to strength-based ranged attacks? Otherwise six-seven levels in this makes for a very powerful multiclass with Rogue and maybe a splash of Fighter. The pseudo-Shield, rage bonus to ranged attacks, rerolling attacks, it's all a bit much.

Feels odd that you get force powers, then a lightsaber only at level 7, but I can see the reasoning balance-wise.
Due to some of the powers (Guided Strike and Jedi Premonition are standouts), this ends up feeling equal to the battlemaster, which is already a frontloaded subclass, at early levels, while gaining many more things at higher levels.

The 7th level ability allows you to use GWM and/or PAM with Dex and even sneak attack. A Jedi/Rogue with a Glaive and PAM could get easy reaction Sneak Attacks and stay out of range of many foes.

At 10th level you get dex save proficiency, initiative proficiency, and three skill proficiencies that you get to use Wisdom with.

It probably should be reined in a good bit

Previous criticism still stands imo. There's nothing here that would suggest that this should be a wizard subclass, and it fails to make the wizard into an adequate melee combatant. It would also be rather overtuned if it wasn't attached to such a fragile chassis with frequently better uses for its actions and a different primary ability score. It runs into the problem that most gish subclasses have, an excess of features and power that still fails to actually facilitate a melee playstyle.

I'm not sure how the bow and the Doll theme intersect? Is it the strings? A play on the clothing item? Intriguing flavor though.

I assume that the Mind Bow prevents you from using non-cantrip spells with your action? The fact that it's treated as a Quickened spell would suggest that it does. If it does, it's definitely fine balance-wise.

I like the spell-like abilities with the Mind Bow, though concentration-free Hold Monster (that also works on undead) that deals damage and exhaustion seems very strong.

[sleepyhead]

I'm not sure how the bow and the Doll theme intersect? Is it the strings? A play on the clothing item? Intriguing flavor though.

I assume that the Mind Bow prevents you from using non-cantrip spells with your action? The fact that it's treated as a Quickened spell would suggest that it does. If it does, it's definitely fine balance-wise.

I like the spell-like abilities with the Mind Bow, though concentration-free Hold Monster (that also works on undead) that deals damage and exhaustion seems very strong.

The bow is a reference to something else that I am basing this concept around. I might end up changing it but it seems fine for now. I'll see what I can do about the concentration freeness of the Mind Pierce




Is this a Bloodborne reference? Or something else? Curious. Needs a smidge more fluff.

Applying metamagic to a weapon, interesting....would you consider allowing the use of Energy Substitution (Or whatever it's called, the Class Variant metamagics) on the bow? And why no Extra attack? you'd be multiclassing anyway.

I like the mechanic of "Bow Spells". Perhaps I could've used that concept. Guess I like secondary resources too much.

I find it funny that Brodcast is telepathy but you need to shoot the message into their head.

Blackout seems really good. Like, REALLY good, especially for requiring a 1st level slot. Nightmare Invasion is likewise really good, but more balanced since it allows more saving throws. Odd mix of spells. Good, but perhaps there could stand to be a few more.

Occupied Mind is funny. I really wonder how the backlash would be fluffed. Could be either really funny, or really spooky. Otherwise, solid.

Splitting Shot is one of those game-changers that operate by virtue of a simple dash of flexibility. My favorite. Potentially quite powerful.

Nope not a Bloodborne reference but good guess. I'll try to work on the fluff.
The reason you can't use the Extra Attack feature with it is because the damage of the bow scales with you to help make up for your sorcereryness, as nickl_2000 brought up.


This is especially rife for abuse from multiclassing (currently by RAW, a Doll Sorcerer 1/Fighter 19 gets 3 attacks at 4d8 + dex each round).


Blackout is just a single target sleep spell and gives just as many saves as Nightmare Invasion, so I'm not really seeing the issue. I'm going to try to add more effects.




So I am thinking of making some changes and would like some input of these ideas. So I think that dropping the additional spells and swapping out the Mind Pierce ability would be a good thing, I really helps getting the subclass going right from the start and doesn't make you wait until 6th level to get the feeling of the subclass in. This would also allow me to steal some Mind Pierce ideas from the spell list. Also, maybe adding your CHA mod to the damage of the Mind Bow would be a good thing to give it some edge over just using firebolt (even though the bow is still doing 1d8 physic damage.)

[nickl_2000]

Touched up flavour on my monk to make sure I got that changed before the end of the contest.

[AdAstra]

Actually, reading back on this, I agree more with Phhase in regards to the Doll's Blackout. Unlike Sleep, there's no HP limit, and it's applied with a bonus action, even if it does prevent using levelled spells. Unconsciousness means a free crit from the party rogue if no one wakes them up in time. The primary thing that keeps Sleep from being too powerful past the early levels is the HP-gate mechanic, which keeps it from knocking out pretty much all full health creatures above CR 1/2 without using a higher-level spell slot. Blackout uses a saving throw instead, making it far more effective against tougher creatures.

[MoleMage]

It's time for voting already and I lost track of it. That's alright, your thread for voting is here!

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?603947-D-amp-D-Subclass-Contest-XII-Voting-Thread&p=24290809#post24290809

Voting is open until December 15th. After that there will be a new contest. Good Luck!

[BerzerkerUnit]

Ack! Forgot to ask to extend this one too. Ah well, didn’t feel very motivated after that UA stepped in.

[AdAstra]

I assume people who didn't participate in the contest can still vote? It wasn't particularly clear in the thread. (obviously not a concern for me, but only 9 people voting seems like it would cause some issues)

[MoleMage]

I assume people who didn't participate in the contest can still vote? It wasn't particularly clear in the thread. (obviously not a concern for me, but only 9 people voting seems like it would cause some issues)

Correct. Anyone can vote. But because of the three-vote system, it generally works out as long as each participant votes (at least based on my observation of previous contests).

[nickl_2000]

I assume people who didn't participate in the contest can still vote? It wasn't particularly clear in the thread. (obviously not a concern for me, but only 9 people voting seems like it would cause some issues)

Absolutely, they can certainly vote.

[MoleMage]

Speaking of, Scaling Strangely is pretty similar to My Way is Different. What's the distinction we're drawing here?


To me the difference is that Scaling Strangely can use standard mechanics but bases them on unusual values (like a rogue who uses gold as hit points, or a warlock who uses Strength to cast), but My Way is Different uses original or uncommon mechanics (like rolling nonstandard dice to make skill checks, or changing up the action economy). They are both pretty similar, and also both pretty similar to Subsystems Online, but I think similar themes are okay when it comes to creating them.

[AdAstra]

One thing I kinda realized, doesn't the current system of voting we have kinda, disincentivize voting? Since you can't vote for yourself, and you contribute 6 total points to the "pool", voting notably decreases the proportional value of votes for your submission. Obviously the intent of the contest isn't to win, but I feel that it's probably best to encourage "sportsmanlike" behavior in some way, and discourage behavior that's good for the individual, but bad for participants as a whole.

[MoleMage]

One thing I kinda realized, doesn't the current system of voting we have kinda, disincentivize voting? Since you can't vote for yourself, and you contribute 6 total points to the "pool", voting notably decreases the proportional value of votes for your submission. Obviously the intent of the contest isn't to win, but I feel that it's probably best to encourage "sportsmanlike" behavior in some way, and discourage behavior that's good for the individual, but bad for participants as a whole.

So far I haven't really seen anyone taking advantage of that fact, but yes. If it becomes an issue, I'll implement mandatory voting (points you earn don't count unless you vote), but right now the tie-breaker rules seems to be sufficient.

[MoleMage]

It's officially that time again for MoleMage to tally and announce the results.

In third place, earning 8 points, we have the last class anyone expected to develop mind-powers. It's Fnissalot's Barbarian Path of the Flowminder! Just because you're angry doesn't mean you can't be smart angry.

We had a tie for most points earned, so I had to break out the tiebreaker rules for the first time since Contest VIII. Our first tiebreaker is whether both participants voted, and they did. The second tiebreaker is the participant who earned the greatest number of first place votes, giving us the following:

In second place, earning 9 points, we have thisdude9001's Doll Origin Sorcerer! Shoot thoughts at people (literally), or take them over with arrows made of psychic energy!

In first place, also earning 9 points, we have RickAsWritten's Nilbog Patron! For chaos-infused goblin fans everywhere (or just people who like to turn damage into health).


Congratulations to our winners!

In the category voting, our winner was Hold My Ale and our runner-up was Scaling Strangely, which means that will be included for voting next contest once again. Keep your eyes peeled for the new contest thread shortly.

Voting is concluded! New contest is up! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?604871-D-amp-D-Subclass-Contest-XIII-Hold-My-Ale&p=24312436#post24312436)

[sleepyhead]

Nice, thanks for the votes people.

[nickl_2000]

Congratulations all!