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thisdude9001
2019-12-16, 08:18 PM
Nice, thanks for the votes people.

nickl_2000
2019-12-16, 09:20 PM
Congratulations all!

sengmeng
2019-12-17, 03:39 PM
Wow, I guess the Path of Valhalla is done. PEACH.

Damon_Tor
2019-12-17, 05:55 PM
Wow, I guess the Path of Valhalla is done. PEACH.

Looks great. I kind of wish there were more options besides Thor and Loki for rage effects though: I would think Tyr and Heimdall would be great options as well, with a focus on sacrifice and perception respectively.

And while I understand that fire is an aspect of Loki, I don't find it central to him, certainly not to the point where I think casting fireballs is the way to go. I'd much rather see illusion spells and similar effects: mirror image would be a very effective addition to a barbarian's defenses while being more on theme for Loki in general. Abilities which trick an enemy into targeting the barbarian instead of an ally with an attack would work well. Fire as the added damage type on the attacks while raging is enough of a callout to it being "his element", while flinging fireballs just doesn't feel right.

sengmeng
2019-12-17, 07:34 PM
Looks great. I kind of wish there were more options besides Thor and Loki for rage effects though: I would think Tyr and Heimdall would be great options as well, with a focus on sacrifice and perception respectively.

And while I understand that fire is an aspect of Loki, I don't find it central to him, certainly not to the point where I think casting fireballs is the way to go. I'd much rather see illusion spells and similar effects: mirror image would be a very effective addition to a barbarian's defenses while being more on theme for Loki in general. Abilities which trick an enemy into targeting the barbarian instead of an ally with an attack would work well. Fire as the added damage type on the attacks while raging is enough of a callout to it being "his element", while flinging fireballs just doesn't feel right.

Good points. I was planning on fleshing out the Norse pantheon a bit more. Those are good suggestions.

Edit: added Watcher's Rage and Rebuker's Rage for Heimdall and Tyr, respectively.

Looked at the College of Fellowship and I like it a lot mechanically. I'm a sucker for unusual swarms and I feel this was well-done, and should create interesting tactical situations when you join and leave the mob. It's a little creepy in concept; seems more like brainwashing and reminiscent of the Pied Piper, but at the same time, rabid music fans do come off that way in real life. I have no real suggestions. I'd probably play this subclass. Well done!

Nicrosil
2019-12-18, 03:10 PM
I have returned from the grave with the Sommelier artificer specialty. Get your foes drunk and then punch them in the gut! Brews, bruise... there's a pun to be made there somewhere.

Phhase
2019-12-19, 12:45 AM
Way of the Iron Cask is up. It's gross and dumb and stupid and I love it. PEACH! Reviews coming soon.

Damon_Tor
2019-12-19, 01:37 PM
Edit: added Watcher's Rage and Rebuker's Rage for Heimdall and Tyr, respectively.

Looks great. All I have remaining are a few quibbles about wording, rules interactions and maybe some complexity issues here and there.

Rebuker's rage has some ambiguous wording: if the damage is healed has it been "negated?" Does it heal whoever you damaged? You could just as easily say the damage cannot be reduced or resisted to reduce complexity.

I like where you went with tricksters rage at 10th level, and hellish rebuke is a great addition I hadn't thought of. But invisibility doesn't play well with rage's "attack or be attacked" rules. It fits the Loki theme, but not the class mechanics. Blur would be a better fit.

I don't think your note at the end is necessary: you're still limited to upgrading your rage once per short rest, and I don't think many tables take 6 short rests a day.


Looked at the College of Fellowship and I like it a lot mechanically. I'm a sucker for unusual swarms and I feel this was well-done, and should create interesting tactical situations when you join and leave the mob. It's a little creepy in concept; seems more like brainwashing and reminiscent of the Pied Piper, but at the same time, rabid music fans do come off that way in real life. I have no real suggestions. I'd probably play this subclass. Well done!

I'm glad you like it. Yes, the subclass certainly borders on some dark themes regarding free will and agency. But then again, it's not like the game doesn't already include questionable content in that regard. Conjure Woodland Creatures, for example, summons intelligent beings that are forced into your service. At least a fellowship bard has to take his posse out for some drinks first!

sengmeng
2019-12-20, 07:01 AM
Looks great. All I have remaining are a few quibbles about wording, rules interactions and maybe some complexity issues here and there.

Rebuker's rage has some ambiguous wording: if the damage is healed has it been "negated?" Does it heal whoever you damaged? You could just as easily say the damage cannot be reduced or resisted to reduce complexity.

I like where you went with tricksters rage at 10th level, and hellish rebuke is a great addition I hadn't thought of. But invisibility doesn't play well with rage's "attack or be attacked" rules. It fits the Loki theme, but not the class mechanics. Blur would be a better fit.

I don't think your note at the end is necessary: you're still limited to upgrading your rage once per short rest, and I don't think many tables take 6 short rests a day.

I made the suggested change to Rebuker's Rage, and I think you're right about the note. The Invisibility I'm keeping, though. That and the ability to see Invisibility from Watcher's Rage give a tiny shred of utility to the desperately one trick pony that is the barbarian in general. If they want to burn 2 rages to use these functions, I wouldn't stand in their way. Besides, in the rare case they might wish to retreat, Invisibility would let them do so.

KragBrightscale
2019-12-20, 07:24 AM
Alright! Iíve added my Druid subclass ďcircle of the great feastĒ to the competition.

First submission for such a competition, so Iím hoping for some PEACH, at least of what I currently have up

nickl_2000
2019-12-20, 07:29 AM
Alright! Iíve added my Druid subclass ďcircle of the great feastĒ to the competition.

First submission for such a competition, so Iím hoping for some PEACH, at least of what I currently have up

Welcome to the party. I will definitely take a look at yours and the others once I figure out a first draft of my entry :)

AdAstra
2019-12-20, 07:39 AM
Okay finally added some description to my Spirits Domain. Didn't have any fancy ideas, so I just focused on the mechanics, which I hope are interesting and useable.

nickl_2000
2019-12-20, 09:00 AM
First draft of the Rogue Tavern Wench is up and available.

KragBrightscale
2019-12-20, 10:12 AM
Okay finally added some description to my Spirits Domain. Didn't have any fancy ideas, so I just focused on the mechanics, which I hope are interesting and useable.

Definitely an improvement from your earlier version. Feels more fleshed out

The 1d4 subtracted from an attack and added to defense, thatís an interesting idea and would be especially useful Iíd imagine on characters who have high bonuses or advantage on attack rolls and benefit from the added AC (barbarian reckless attack? Seems like a natural combo)

Miraculous proof, while likely able to result in a lot of fun situations rp-wise, I think it could have more to it. Benefits of consumption, effect on undead, charms those who drink it, loosening their tongues etc... itís got potential

Iím not too experienced with homebrewing so Iíll let others check the numbers

AdAstra
2019-12-20, 10:39 AM
Definitely an improvement from your earlier version. Feels more fleshed out

The 1d4 subtracted from an attack and added to defense, thatís an interesting idea and would be especially useful Iíd imagine on characters who have high bonuses or advantage on attack rolls and benefit from the added AC (barbarian reckless attack? Seems like a natural combo)

Miraculous proof, while likely able to result in a lot of fun situations rp-wise, I think it could have more to it. Benefits of consumption, effect on undead, charms those who drink it, loosening their tongues etc... itís got potential

Iím not too experienced with homebrewing so Iíll let others check the numbers

I wanted to keep the second channel divinity entirely confined to flavor, since there aren't many cleric domains that have two different CD options. I might add something, but if so it'll be pretty small.

Damon_Tor
2019-12-21, 11:27 AM
I really like the Tavern Wench more than I expected to. I think I would probably prefer it if it was expanded conceptually to something that could encompass a wider array of a tavern's denizens, but I get that would interfere with some of the humor.

I love the ability to use improvised weapons as proficient finesse weapons, that's freaking brilliant. And it goes great with their level 13 ability to throw acid and other liquids with a bonus action (since those are treated as improvised weapons).

Mechanically, the only issue I have is that the level 17 ability is extremely underwhelming. Rogue subclasses usually get something really excellent at level 17, usually something that improves their damage somehow (afaik, the mastermind is the only exception), disease immunity and con save advantage is unimpressive by comparison to its peers.

nickl_2000
2019-12-21, 01:33 PM
I really like the Tavern Wench more than I expected to. I think I would probably prefer it if it was expanded conceptually to something that could encompass a wider array of a tavern's denizens, but I get that would interfere with some of the humor.

I love the ability to use improvised weapons as proficient finesse weapons, that's freaking brilliant. And it goes great with their level 13 ability to throw acid and other liquids with a bonus action (since those are treated as improvised weapons).

Mechanically, the only issue I have is that the level 17 ability is extremely underwhelming. Rogue subclasses usually get something really excellent at level 17, usually something that improves their damage somehow (afaik, the mastermind is the only exception), disease immunity and con save advantage is unimpressive by comparison to its peers.

Thanks I really liked the fun and flavor, but struggled with the abilities

1) do too think it would be okay to make a unarmed strike finesse as well as improvised weapons? A good bar maid has a mighty slap.


2) how about this instead? assuming you can slap as a finesse weapon.


Keep your hands to yourself!
At level 17, you been there and done that. Frankly you are getting pretty tired of all the s**t from your patrons. When you are hit with an attack or grappled, may use your reaction to make an unarmed strike against your attacker. If you are successful in your hit, you also automatically break any grapples.
You may use this ability up to your dexterity modifier times or long rest.


I know it kind of breaks the mold being limited to resources, but a free reaction each round seemed like way too much

AdAstra
2019-12-21, 03:53 PM
Thanks I really liked the fun and flavor, but struggled with the abilities

1) do too think it would be okay to make a unarmed strike finesse as well as improvised weapons? A good bar maid has a mighty slap.


2) how about this instead? assuming you can slap as a finesse weapon.


Keep your hands to yourself!
At level 17, you been there and done that. Frankly you are getting pretty tired of all the s**t from your patrons. When you are hit with an attack or grappled, may use your reaction to make an unarmed strike against your attacker. If you are successful in your hit, you also automatically break any grapples.
You may use this ability up to your dexterity modifier times or long rest.


I know it kind of breaks the mold being limited to resources, but a free reaction each round seemed like way too much

Even if it was at-will, it wouldnít be totally insane as a 17th level ability. Even with Sneak Attack, your damage will be lower than using a weapon, and you still need to fulfill the requirements of SA. As an example, Scout gets a free bonus action attack that can trigger an extra Sneak Attack (it canít be against the same target, but still) allowing them to theoretically get three SAs a round (Action, bonus action, reaction with something like Sentinel or Battlemasterís Riposte). The ability as-written (with the limit) is decently powerful without breaking anything, and is also very fun. Love the idea of a barmaid slapping a dragon out of the sky.

nickl_2000
2019-12-21, 04:01 PM
Even if it was at-will, it wouldnít be totally insane as a 17th level ability. Even with Sneak Attack, your damage will be lower than using a weapon, and you still need to fulfill the requirements of SA. As an example, Scout gets a free bonus action attack that can trigger an extra Sneak Attack (it canít be against the same target, but still) allowing them to theoretically get three SAs a round (Action, bonus action, reaction with something like Sentinel or Battlemasterís Riposte). The ability as-written (with the limit) is decently powerful without breaking anything, and is also very fun. Love the idea of a barmaid slapping a dragon out of the sky.

Alright, you convinced me :)

Slap whoever it is silly at will as a reaction. The nice thing is that it competes with uncanny dodge as well.

Damon_Tor
2019-12-21, 04:06 PM
Thanks I really liked the fun and flavor, but struggled with the abilities

1) do too think it would be okay to make a unarmed strike finesse as well as improvised weapons? A good bar maid has a mighty slap.


2) how about this instead? assuming you can slap as a finesse weapon.


Keep your hands to yourself!
At level 17, you been there and done that. Frankly you are getting pretty tired of all the s**t from your patrons. When you are hit with an attack or grappled, may use your reaction to make an unarmed strike against your attacker. If you are successful in your hit, you also automatically break any grapples.
You may use this ability up to your dexterity modifier times or long rest.


I know it kind of breaks the mold being limited to resources, but a free reaction each round seemed like way too much

I would worry about stepping on monk's toes.

If it were me, I'd double down on hitting people with bottles. When you allow for bonus action liquid attacks also introduce the ability to apply the poisoned condition to a guy you hit with a bottle of booze, then at level 17 increase the damage you deal to poisoned creatures. It would give you a one-two punch that would be pretty effective, and would have some defensive benefits as well. It would be inherently limited because you would have to stay stocked up on liquor.

nickl_2000
2019-12-21, 04:16 PM
You will have to excuse my formatting, Iím writing this on my phone when I have time to get one in

Bardic College of the Wassailer
Level 3, this feels a little bit of an edge case to me. Itís a fun effect overall and pretty powerful, but if you are out adventuring or dungeon crawling you may not be able to use this every day.

Also, itís very typical to give bonus profs at level 3 for a bard, or at least two abilities. I would add something else.


Level 6: how do you choose who is immune to winter effects? When is that choice made?

Level 14: this has the same issue I have with the level 3 ability. When out in the wilderness, you may not be able to do it at all and will lose out on a major subclass feature.


Overall, the flavor is really fun and interesting. Very thematic to the time it was written and would make a fun subclass to play other than the issues I mentioned above.

nickl_2000
2019-12-30, 10:43 AM
Time for more reviews now that the holiday season is over.


Domain Spells - Shatter seems a little bit off to me, but otherwise it seems good.

Channel divinity What happens is someone if blind or doesn't have eyes? Balance wise it seems good though. An effective ability that isn't to powerful, but is certainly useful.

Heart of an oxen - I wouldn't mind seeing the temporary hit points raise as you go. Whether it's you gain your level in temp HP or something else, 2d6 HP at level 20 is nice, but it would barely last a single hit.

Life of the Party - So, this is really, really powerful on a Warlock or Monk. As it is written, you could refresh their Ki or spells multiple times in a single battle. I think it works fine if you put in a rider that says it can only be used on someone once per long rest or something to that effect.






Drunkard's Luck - What is the damage type of this when it is added? The weapon damage type?

Channel Divinity: Miraculous Proof - Is this also at 2nd level?

Spirit Haze - how often can this be used?






Wrath of the Gods - Is there an action cost to enter a higher rage? Or when you rage, you can choose to super rage instead?

Rebuker's Rage - This feels off to me for some reason. I guess since you are hitting this at level 3 you could easily kill yourself within 3-4 rounds just by hitting other people. I'm not sure what the solution is though, since you are adding significant damage to each hit there needs to be some drawback.

Sacred Mead - When you take a short rest and use a hit dice, you already get your Con bonus added to the amount of HP healed. So, if the intent is that you get 2x your con bonus, you probably should spell that out more clearly.

Drunken Rage - Probably a typo, but you don't mention the rebukers rage when you give the first information.

All-Father's Blessing - This is interesting, and really, really flipping powerful. The easiest way to drop a barbarian is to hold/suggestion/some spell that targets wisdom. You are effectively shutting this ability down completely for the combat. It seems like to much to give a blanket protection against these. Additionally, it adds some odd complications with concentration mechanics. What happens is a baddie casts hold person on the barbarian and the barbarian defers it. Does the baddie still have to hold concentration or not?







Before anything else, I have to say that I absolutely adore this line "their fear and incompetence overwhelming their desire to please you"

So, while the mob is cool at level 3, I think you need something else at level 3. Some bonus proficiency, some other smaller ability, something. It feels spares compared to the other bard subclasses, especially since you get nothing for combat at all (or a use for bardic inspiration).

The Mob - There is a lot of flavor in making the mob get together, but I think it's an over-complication that would slow down combat. It would be way easier if they just gathered when initiative was rolled.

The mob is a pretty fun mechanic, but I think you need something more to this subclass. If they get killed off, you are toast since you have nothing left. An extra use of inspiration, some extra abilities. Something.







Doing my best here, but take my comments with a grain of salt since I'm not an expert with Artificer at all. This is all going to be gut feelings.

Inebriated Confidant - At the end of the hour, does the target know you charmed it?

Sickening Blow - This seems really, really powerful. Not the damage, that's fine, but the poisoned condition is actually pretty brutal. Additionally since you can do it every single round it makes it even worse. I think you need some sort of limiter on there that "if a creature succeeds on a saving throw against the poisoned condition, it cannot be poisoned by this ability for 24 hours).

Also, 3 abilities at level 3 seems to be a bit front loaded to me.






Synthesize - This feels to weak having to spend an action, ki, and a your tank to get 2x level temp HP for a single round. I feel like they should last longer to make it worth the investment. Maybe a minute, maybe a number of rounds equal to your con mod, something to make it last longer.

Exude - Viscous and exude seems like an odd combination. They are knocked back 10 feet and are grappled? How does that work exactly?






Drunken gait - Not that it matters much, but there isn't an AC dodge bonus in 5th edition (or magical, or shield, or any other type for that matter). So, there is no need to say it, it may confuse some people.

Brewmaster - How many uses do you get out of each brew? You mentioned that the druid can take a swig, doesn't that use up the brew completely, or does it have multiple uses? If it's single use, then I would remove that to simplify the wording somewhat.

Medicinal mead - restored 1d4 + half level of druid hit points?

party animal - The first part of this is completely unnecessary. When a Druid wildshapes, they keep their class features (other than being able to cast spells). So, they would already be able to use this feature prior to level 10. So, you can certainly enhance this ability fairly significantly.

Free spirited - This feels kind of weak for a capstone to me. Admittedly, druid capstones are weaker, but the least you could do is make it so you can cast it concentration free. That would be something at least.







First things first, tongue in cheek is perfectly fine. My first entry was a Pinball Wizard (based on The Who's rock opera Tommy) and I made a barbarian who was a tool user with an ability called "percussive maintenance" (effectively raging and beating things with tools until they were crafted).

Oath Spells:
Why are you giving Spirit Guardians? This seems like a huge boon to a Paladin and doesn't really fit into the theme that I can tell. Bestow Curse, Remove Curse, Create Food and Water, Stinking Cloud, and Slow seem like they would fit to me.

Turn the Civilized - Alright, I find this ability flat out hilarious.

Aura of Disgust - How does this work with casters? Do they cast against you or do they attack? Honestly, I'm not sure I'm a fan of this ability since you can't turn it off. While a Paladin is a tank and wants to be the focus of attacks, making it required that all bad guys attack you all the time is pretty brutal. How does this Paladin escape when they are being downed? I would re-consider it to be something else, that could be the same name even. You could do something where enemies needs to make a save or be poisoned for 1 round (on a successful save, they are immune).

Toxic Cleansing - Woah... that is a lot of HP. At 15th level that is 75 extra hit points that are gained per short rest (so 225 HP on an average adventuring day). Also, it's a little bit odd to tie a 15th level ability to a channel divinity. I would consider making it a once per long rest ability that isn't tied to Turn the Civilized.

Inured to Death - This is really powerful as well, on the other hand a level 20 ability is supposed to be. I am not a huge fan of this ability in the Zealot barbarian, but that is more a person issue rather than a balance issue.


Overall it's a good subclass. There is a lot of good flavor, but some of the abilities need to be tightened up or modified.

Damon_Tor
2019-12-30, 01:33 PM
Before anything else, I have to say that I absolutely adore this line "their fear and incompetence overwhelming their desire to please you"

So, while the mob is cool at level 3, I think you need something else at level 3. Some bonus proficiency, some other smaller ability, something. It feels spares compared to the other bard subclasses, especially since you get nothing for combat at all (or a use for bardic inspiration).

The Mob - There is a lot of flavor in making the mob get together, but I think it's an over-complication that would slow down combat. It would be way easier if they just gathered when initiative was rolled.

The mob is a pretty fun mechanic, but I think you need something more to this subclass. If they get killed off, you are toast since you have nothing left. An extra use of inspiration, some extra abilities. Something.


Thanks for the feedback.

Point taken on level 3 offering nothing for combat. I'll give some thought into what might be appropriate. I'm thinking something that will add some flexibility to Inspiration use without actually adding much power, maybe something there Bardic Inspiration can be expended as a reaction on another creature's behalf. So if you inspire the Wizard but it's the Fighter that turns out to have a better use for it, the Wizard can use a reaction to pass the inspiration to the Fighter. Fits the theme of fellowship and group-bonding while not relying on the followers.

As for the followers joining to become a mob, I'm walking a bit of a line there. 90% of the time I expect the mob will coalesce right as initiative is rolled and it won't be an issue, and another 9% of the time when there's a straggler or two their first and only turn will consist of nothing but "and these guys move 60 feet and are now a part of the mob" and it won't be an issue, because really how often would they be more than 90 feet away from each other when combat begins? I expect that it would only be under very unusual situations where a follower will spend more than one turn apart from the mob, and I think in most of those scenarios it would be because the follower has been sent far enough away that you won't need to worry about it at all. And the alternative is things like followers teleporting from 50 miles away (where you've sent them to run back to town and buy provisions or something), or phasing through jail cells to form up. Neither is inherently bad, magic is magic after all, but as a passive feature that uses no spell slots or anything of the sort, it seems like those effects would bend the credibility of what sorts of things magic should be able to accomplish.

As for the followers/mob being the subclasses' only feature, you aren't wrong about that, but in general bard subclasses have rather mild features, because the bard chassis is so solid. So there's just not a whole lot of room to work with without taking things further above the power curve than I'm comfortable with. I'll work on the additional 3rd level ability, hopefully it should alleviate some of those concerns.

AdAstra
2019-12-30, 04:57 PM
Time for more reviews now that the holiday season is over.


Domain Spells - Shatter seems a little bit off to me, but otherwise it seems good.

Channel divinity What happens is someone if blind or doesn't have eyes? Balance wise it seems good though. An effective ability that isn't to powerful, but is certainly useful.

Heart of an oxen - I wouldn't mind seeing the temporary hit points raise as you go. Whether it's you gain your level in temp HP or something else, 2d6 HP at level 20 is nice, but it would barely last a single hit.

Life of the Party - So, this is really, really powerful on a Warlock or Monk. As it is written, you could refresh their Ki or spells multiple times in a single battle. I think it works fine if you put in a rider that says it can only be used on someone once per long rest or something to that effect.






Drunkard's Luck - What is the damage type of this when it is added? The weapon damage type?

Channel Divinity: Miraculous Proof - Is this also at 2nd level?

Spirit Haze - how often can this be used?






Wrath of the Gods - Is there an action cost to enter a higher rage? Or when you rage, you can choose to super rage instead?

Rebuker's Rage - This feels off to me for some reason. I guess since you are hitting this at level 3 you could easily kill yourself within 3-4 rounds just by hitting other people. I'm not sure what the solution is though, since you are adding significant damage to each hit there needs to be some drawback.

Sacred Mead - When you take a short rest and use a hit dice, you already get your Con bonus added to the amount of HP healed. So, if the intent is that you get 2x your con bonus, you probably should spell that out more clearly.

Drunken Rage - Probably a typo, but you don't mention the rebukers rage when you give the first information.

All-Father's Blessing - This is interesting, and really, really flipping powerful. The easiest way to drop a barbarian is to hold/suggestion/some spell that targets wisdom. You are effectively shutting this ability down completely for the combat. It seems like to much to give a blanket protection against these. Additionally, it adds some odd complications with concentration mechanics. What happens is a baddie casts hold person on the barbarian and the barbarian defers it. Does the baddie still have to hold concentration or not?







Before anything else, I have to say that I absolutely adore this line "their fear and incompetence overwhelming their desire to please you"

So, while the mob is cool at level 3, I think you need something else at level 3. Some bonus proficiency, some other smaller ability, something. It feels spares compared to the other bard subclasses, especially since you get nothing for combat at all (or a use for bardic inspiration).

The Mob - There is a lot of flavor in making the mob get together, but I think it's an over-complication that would slow down combat. It would be way easier if they just gathered when initiative was rolled.

The mob is a pretty fun mechanic, but I think you need something more to this subclass. If they get killed off, you are toast since you have nothing left. An extra use of inspiration, some extra abilities. Something.







Doing my best here, but take my comments with a grain of salt since I'm not an expert with Artificer at all. This is all going to be gut feelings.

Inebriated Confidant - At the end of the hour, does the target know you charmed it?

Sickening Blow - This seems really, really powerful. Not the damage, that's fine, but the poisoned condition is actually pretty brutal. Additionally since you can do it every single round it makes it even worse. I think you need some sort of limiter on there that "if a creature succeeds on a saving throw against the poisoned condition, it cannot be poisoned by this ability for 24 hours).

Also, 3 abilities at level 3 seems to be a bit front loaded to me.






Synthesize - This feels to weak having to spend an action, ki, and a your tank to get 2x level temp HP for a single round. I feel like they should last longer to make it worth the investment. Maybe a minute, maybe a number of rounds equal to your con mod, something to make it last longer.

Exude - Viscous and exude seems like an odd combination. They are knocked back 10 feet and are grappled? How does that work exactly?






Drunken gait - Not that it matters much, but there isn't an AC dodge bonus in 5th edition (or magical, or shield, or any other type for that matter). So, there is no need to say it, it may confuse some people.

Brewmaster - How many uses do you get out of each brew? You mentioned that the druid can take a swig, doesn't that use up the brew completely, or does it have multiple uses? If it's single use, then I would remove that to simplify the wording somewhat.

Medicinal mead - restored 1d4 + half level of druid hit points?

party animal - The first part of this is completely unnecessary. When a Druid wildshapes, they keep their class features (other than being able to cast spells). So, they would already be able to use this feature prior to level 10. So, you can certainly enhance this ability fairly significantly.

Free spirited - This feels kind of weak for a capstone to me. Admittedly, druid capstones are weaker, but the least you could do is make it so you can cast it concentration free. That would be something at least.







First things first, tongue in cheek is perfectly fine. My first entry was a Pinball Wizard (based on The Who's rock opera Tommy) and I made a barbarian who was a tool user with an ability called "percussive maintenance" (effectively raging and beating things with tools until they were crafted).

Oath Spells:
Why are you giving Spirit Guardians? This seems like a huge boon to a Paladin and doesn't really fit into the theme that I can tell. Bestow Curse, Remove Curse, Create Food and Water, Stinking Cloud, and Slow seem like they would fit to me.

Turn the Civilized - Alright, I find this ability flat out hilarious.

Aura of Disgust - How does this work with casters? Do they cast against you or do they attack? Honestly, I'm not sure I'm a fan of this ability since you can't turn it off. While a Paladin is a tank and wants to be the focus of attacks, making it required that all bad guys attack you all the time is pretty brutal. How does this Paladin escape when they are being downed? I would re-consider it to be something else, that could be the same name even. You could do something where enemies needs to make a save or be poisoned for 1 round (on a successful save, they are immune).

Toxic Cleansing - Woah... that is a lot of HP. At 15th level that is 75 extra hit points that are gained per short rest (so 225 HP on an average adventuring day). Also, it's a little bit odd to tie a 15th level ability to a channel divinity. I would consider making it a once per long rest ability that isn't tied to Turn the Civilized.

Inured to Death - This is really powerful as well, on the other hand a level 20 ability is supposed to be. I am not a huge fan of this ability in the Zealot barbarian, but that is more a person issue rather than a balance issue.


Overall it's a good subclass. There is a lot of good flavor, but some of the abilities need to be tightened up or modified.



Since itís added to the damage roll, it would do the same damage type as the attack. Since itís the result and not the die itself being added/subtracted, itís also not doubled by a crit.

Yes. Iíll change the wording to make that clear

Itís intended to be at-will like the Light Clericís aura. I might change it to make a it a bit more of a tradeoff.

Damon_Tor
2020-01-05, 05:32 AM
Added the following ability to the College of Fellowship:


Strength in Numbers
Also at third level, you inspire unity among your comrades in arms. A creature that has a Bardic Inspiration die from you can roll that die when it takes damage: instead of that creature taking the damage alone, the damage is divided between that creature and a number of other willing creatures within 30 feet of it, which cannot exceed the number rolled on the Bardic Inspiration die. The damage is divided as that creature wishes, but must be divided as evenly as possible.

nickl_2000
2020-01-05, 10:11 AM
Added the following ability to the College of Fellowship:


Strength in Numbers
Also at third level, you inspire unity among your comrades in arms. A creature that has a Bardic Inspiration die from you can roll that die when it takes damage: instead of that creature taking the damage alone, the damage is divided between that creature and a number of other willing creatures within 30 feet of it, which cannot exceed the number rolled on the Bardic Inspiration die. The damage is divided as that creature wishes, but must be divided as evenly as possible.

This isnít bad, a nice new use of inspiration.

So, I have a die and get hit for 25 damage. Roll the die and get a four. Now instead of me taking 25 damage, my 4 willing ally friends and I each take 5 damage?

Damon_Tor
2020-01-05, 07:31 PM
This isnít bad, a nice new use of inspiration.

So, I have a die and get hit for 25 damage. Roll the die and get a four. Now instead of me taking 25 damage, my 4 willing ally friends and I each take 5 damage?

Correct, yes.

I went ahead and added an example of how this works in my Q&A section as well.

MoleMage
2020-01-08, 11:54 PM
Not as detailed as I'd like to do, but some small feedback for everyone here.


Why does Center of Attention give advantage on Constitution saving throws? The damage resistance I can see, but Con saves feel out of place.

Heart of an Oxen: Most resistance features just give resistance, even if you already have resistance to that thing.

Life of the Party: I don't have a good point of comparison for this, but it seems too strong. If there's a Warlock around, the cleric can easily trade one 6th level slot out for 4 5th level slots.



Drunkard's Luck (Defensive version) is fine, but I think the damage output is a little too high for the offensive usage.

Miraculous Proof seems like it should be on its own use limitation rather than the Channel Divinity limitation; Channel Divinity usually has direct combat application in some manner. If you switch Drunkard's Luck to a Channel Divinity feature and Miraculous Proof to its own I think it would work better.

Inebriation is an odd effect. Definitely like it though. Same with Spirit Haze




Just all around like this. Only concern is that All-Father's Blessing references Sacred Mead but seems to have nothing to do with it.





Do non-mob commoners still have HP? Can they be killed in battle? Other than that, it's a well-done class. The mob rules are solid and it looks fun.





I'll be honest I don't have the book with Artificer yet so my only point of reference is the old playtest rules

Inebriated Confidant seems fun.
Sickening Blow feels like it should have a usage limitation. Do Artificers normally get a bonus action damage feature?
Nauseating Strike continues to build Sickening Blow. That seems like a lot of damage and riders for one bonus action.



Bar brawling isn't always about the patrons, eh?

Each of the features here seems to build on a theme without actually being mechanically related to one another, which is pretty cool. It gives the rogue a lot of options in combat, where they normally lack variety. Good job.




Is Acrid Furnace both a passive and active feature? As in you can always eat anything, but you can only rapidly consume something a number of times per long rest?
Synthesize temp HP does not last long enough to be worth it IMO. The foci are also a little complicated (I like complicated, but it's not necessarily a common opinion).
Bring Me More is odd. Why not a short rest, since they normally replenish on a long? I also don't really see it as a combat feature unlike Ki or Bardic Inspiration so initiative is doubly odd as a trigger.





Why not give both brewing tools and musical instrument at 2? Those are relatively minor proficiencies.

Drunken Gait is cool.

Brewmaster only has two effects but they seem fine.

Wild shape is the name of the transformation druid feature, not beast shape. Also, unless otherwise specified, class features are retained in animal form by default (Drunken Gait's benefits should already apply to animal shapes).

Free Spirited: Supernatural abilities are not a thing anylonger in 5e. The wording would be "cast [spell] without consuming a spell slot or requiring material or somatic components" or something to that effect.





Turn the Civilized needs a duration. Also...gross (but thematic).
Aura of Disgust should allow them to ignore the effect by some means (disadvantage attacking other people, lowered damage against other people, something to that effect).
Inured to Death is a good capstone, but its wording could be cleaned up a bit.



I'll also be making some last minute adjustments to College of the Wassailer later this week or possibly this weekend just before deadline.

Damon_Tor
2020-01-11, 01:25 AM
[SPOILER=College of Fellowship]

Do non-mob commoners still have HP? Can they be killed in battle? Other than that, it's a well-done class. The mob rules are solid and it looks fun.

They do, they have 4 HP (and 10 AC) like any commoner, and they can die, though the fact that they just run and hide means I expect most DMs will ignore them. Before they can form a mob they're a purely out-of-combat resource, great for the social/exploration pillars simply because manpower can be so useful, but there's not a good reason an enemy with any sort of tactical intelligence would spend its time trying to pick off the guys running away when there are real credible threats on the battlefield.

Phhase
2020-01-12, 05:49 PM
Is Acrid Furnace both a passive and active feature? As in you can always eat anything, but you can only rapidly consume something a number of times per long rest?
Synthesize temp HP does not last long enough to be worth it IMO. The foci are also a little complicated (I like complicated, but it's not necessarily a common opinion).
Bring Me More is odd. Why not a short rest, since they normally replenish on a long? I also don't really see it as a combat feature unlike Ki or Bardic Inspiration so initiative is doubly odd as a trigger.




Yes, it's both. The active is there so that you can refill your Tank with an action while in combat (which is also why Bring Me More works that way). At the eleventh hour, I'm making the proper edits. Synthesize no longer had a blink-and-you'll-miss-it duration, and is stronger. With Viscous, it's like you hit someone hard with Iron Bands of Bilarro. They fly through the air with a gob of goo on them, then splat. Hard Synthesize now no longer makes you immune, instead grants DR. Hard Vomit now can critically strike instead of gaining range. Volatile Synthesize now creates a recoil shockwave instead. Volatile and Poison Vomit effects now last longer, as do the effects of Slippery and Viscous Vomit.

Viscous Synthesize now grapples things that hit you (Sticky!).

I am sorry I could not give feedback this time :smallfrown:. I will explain in my voting post.

MoleMage
2020-01-13, 11:54 AM
Contest time is up, voting time is now!

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?606404-D-amp-D-Subclass-Contest-XIII-Voting-Thread&p=24351363#post24351363

MoleMage
2020-01-20, 06:21 PM
We are halfway through the voting period, and only four votes from 10 entries have been submitted. One of the six left is myself, but that still leaves five more votes floating free!

As to our current leader, nickl_2000's Tavern Wench has taken a strong early lead, followed by Damon_Tor's College of Fellowship. With so many votes still hopefully to come, it's definitely still possible to go any direction, though!

nickl_2000
2020-01-26, 07:15 PM
My votes:

1. College of Fellowship. I'm really impressed at how much you managed to do with the bard's miniscule subclass, and I also like minion classes in general.
2. Way of the Iron Cask. It's gross but also represents a character archetype that is reasonably common yet unrepresented so it got 2nd by that quality.
3. Tavern Wench. It's got a lot of fun stuff happening, as has become your style.

1. The Pen is Mightier
2. Make a Choice

This made me laugh some. I didnít realize I had a style :)

MoleMage
2020-01-28, 01:52 AM
I've been having trouble connecting to the forums for the past few days and I'm guessing that's happening to people in general, so I'm going to extend voting an extra week in case anyone was trying but unable to look at the entries or cast a vote. New deadline is Feb 3.

nickl_2000
2020-01-28, 07:30 AM
I've been having trouble connecting to the forums for the past few days and I'm guessing that's happening to people in general, so I'm going to extend voting an extra week in case anyone was trying but unable to look at the entries or cast a vote. New deadline is Feb 3.

You aren't the only one. It's everywhere

Damon_Tor
2020-01-28, 10:35 AM
I've been having trouble connecting to the forums for the past few days and I'm guessing that's happening to people in general, so I'm going to extend voting an extra week in case anyone was trying but unable to look at the entries or cast a vote. New deadline is Feb 3.

I'll confirm, there have been days when I haven't been able to connect at all. It's still really touchy.

nickl_2000
2020-02-22, 09:48 AM
I'll confirm, there have been days when I haven't been able to connect at all. It's still really touchy.

Looks like we are back finally. Molemage, how do you want to handle voting? Call it at this point of give until the end of the month for additional voting?

MoleMage
2020-02-22, 02:07 PM
Woo we are back online! I am extending voting until the end of the day March 1st, in part because we lost access during the last extension, in part because I need to recollect my bearings, and in part because I won't have access to a proper computer for another three days and I always try to end these things on a Sunday.

Man_Over_Game
2020-03-03, 01:39 PM
Remind me again, are we allowed to post a homebrew we've already created that fits the contest?

It seems the next contest is going to be one where you make a choice between two features, and I have one that'd fit perfectly, but I want to make sure it's within the rules to do so.

MoleMage
2020-03-03, 01:52 PM
Votes tallied, time to call it!

In 3rd place, with 9 points, we have those seekers of glorious death, sengmeng's barbarians on the Path to Valhalla! Channel the northern gods when you rage, and drink your devotion when you do pretty much anything!

In 2nd place, with 11 points, we have the rock stars of the fantasy realm, Damon_Tor's College of Fellowship! Stand for the common folk and let them stand for you. Organize your devotees into an attacking force!

Aaaaand in 1st place, with a staggering 18 points, we have that most iconic of supporting characters now taking the spotlight, it's nickl_2000's Tavern Wench! You handle the booze around here, and you've been dealing with uppity adventurers too long. Make sure everyone knows to watch their behavior!


As for themes, we had a clear breakaway in Make A Choice, and our runners-up were tied between Bigger is Better and The Pen is Mightier. Tiebreaker rules would put Bigger is Better ahead, but I'll just go ahead and include both in the next contest voting pool instead.

And we're ready to get the next contest up! Keep your eyes open for Contest XIV: Make a Choice!

And it's up here: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?607867-D-amp-D-Subclass-Contest-XIV-Make-a-Choice&p=24383141#post24383141

Damon_Tor
2020-03-06, 02:44 AM
Well I think I've got my Vestige Warlock (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?607867-D-amp-D-Subclass-Contest-XIV-Make-a-Choice&p=24384550&viewfull=1#post24384550) solidly in "alpha" release. It's a sort of "build your own patron" system where you get to glue together three different not-quite-so-powerful mini-patrons and hopefully come up with something greater than the sum of their parts. It's more of a "caster" than other warlocks in that it doesn't have much in the way of defensive features, but instead his features are nearly exclusively short-rest limited powers which augment spells he casts, a sort of souped-up metamagic.

The vestiges' powers are deliberately made to be usable together in combination. Decisively win a Counterspell vs Counterspell battle with The Paradox so you can steal the BBEG's self-buff spell with The Lost then pass it on to an ally with The Regent or you can Dial an AoE damage spell up to 11 with The Void, The Ascendant and the Guardian.

I broke from tradition by not giving the vestiges names from the Lore: both the 3.5 Binder and the 4e Vestige Pact Warlock named each vestige, and I didn't really care for it. My preference was to name them after various mythic archetypes and make them totally setting-neutral.

RickAsWritten
2020-03-06, 01:01 PM
My entry is up. Sorcerous Origin: Fateweaver (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24387820&postcount=9).

Iím in the process of reading The Wheel of Time for the first time, so Iíve been getting a steady diet of Taíveren and the Pattern. This subclass is partially inspired by that series, as well as the Quantal and Marjal from Mark Lawerenceís Book of the Ancestor series. And also partially inspired by the three Fates of Greek mythology.

I'm happy with it overall, but I think it needs work/fine tuning. I find that I'm having a harder time gauging balance since the release of the Class Feature Variants UA. The added versatility definitely skews balance, but I'm not sure I've fully grasped the new "meta" for creating subclasses. Any feedback is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

RickAsWritten

saucerhead
2020-03-06, 01:41 PM
Well I have to say that Sub14 is off to a great start. You are all coming up with very interesting ideas. I have nothing at this point, and might end up sitting out this contest, but it looks to be a good one.

Good luck, and congrats to the winners of Sub13.

nickl_2000
2020-03-06, 01:47 PM
Well I have to say that Sub14 is off to a great start. You are all coming up with very interesting ideas. I have nothing at this point, and might end up sitting out this contest, but it looks to be a good one.

Good luck, and congrats to the winners of Sub13.

I'm in the same place as you, but we will see what my mind comes up with over the next few days

sengmeng
2020-03-06, 03:53 PM
Feedback:

Fighter Archetype: Olympian

I like this well enough. Would definitely allow it as a DM, but it's not super exciting. I do not know how to improve it. You gain all but one of the events by the time you complete this; are you looking for more suggestions for events to add? Also, it's a fighter. You can go wild and most people won't think it's overpowered. I'd say the shotput should require two hands (I never did it, but it looks that way) and should specify that you do or do not have proficiency for the attack. Discus needs a range as a whole new weapon, and why is it special? Special implies there's more rules to read to get what it does. Wrestling is by far my favorite for a character I would actually play. The jumping and running ones seem fine, if underwhelming. Decathlete is fine for the superhuman things that 18th level characters are supposed to do.

Warlock Patron: The Vestige
Looks like we had some pretty similar thoughts, I just did mine the lazy way. I like it. I suppose you're looking to expand the vestige list? It would be cool to have one for each skill, but maybe you don't want to hand them that much versatility, or just don't care to do it with the purely physical skills. Although, it's a warlock, so they can probably use all the utility they can get their hands on. So far, Athletics, Acrobatics, Handle Animal, Investigation, Peformance, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, and Survival are unrepresented. The Avatar A god that befell disaster due to his desire to physically manifest and walk with mortals. Grants Athletics.
The Rider Basically Ghost Rider. Grants Animal Handling.
The Lorekeeper Similar to mages who ascended via magic, the lorekeeper rooted out some secrets that were not meant to be known. Grants Investigation.
The Crossroads Where mortals go to barter their souls for skill in song. Grants Performance.
The Thief How does one gain the powers of a god of thieves? One steals it. Grants Sleight of Hand.
The Castaway Physically stranded in a world of otherness, a mortal absorbed so much energy from an alien world, they reached vestige status. Grants Survival.

Can't really think of one for Acrobatics and Stealth (unless you want to roll them in with the same ideas as Athletics and Sleight of Hand).

Sorcerous Origin: Threadweaver
Love the tie-in to Greek mythology. I really don't have much to say, except the 18th level ability is weird and non-intuitive, though it remains thematic. Maybe tighten the wording? Not that it's long, it just would by necessity become a more elegant and easily understood feature if you managed to get the point across with fewer words. Sorry if that's not very helpful.

Damon_Tor
2020-03-06, 06:48 PM
I have nothing at this point, and might end up sitting out this contest, but it looks to be a good one.

I've been thinking about it since the last contest went dormant during the great forum coma, and yeah, I didn't have a strong idea at first either. I felt like there were a ton of ways I could just insert choices into almost any subclass I could think of, but it always just felt like I was coming up with 3+ different subclasses that just mix and match features like the Totem Barbarian does. I wanted the choices to be more meaningful, and to interact with each other.

Damon_Tor
2020-03-06, 06:58 PM
Warlock Patron: The Vestige[/SIZE]
Looks like we had some pretty similar thoughts, I just did mine the lazy way. I like it. I suppose you're looking to expand the vestige list? It would be cool to have one for each skill, but maybe you don't want to hand them that much versatility, or just don't care to do it with the purely physical skills. Although, it's a warlock, so they can probably use all the utility they can get their hands on. So far, Athletics, Acrobatics, Handle Animal, Investigation, Peformance, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, and Survival are unrepresented. The Avatar A god that befell disaster due to his desire to physically manifest and walk with mortals. Grants Athletics.
The Rider Basically Ghost Rider. Grants Animal Handling.
The Lorekeeper Similar to mages who ascended via magic, the lorekeeper rooted out some secrets that were not meant to be known. Grants Investigation.
The Crossroads Where mortals go to barter their souls for skill in song. Grants Performance.
The Thief How does one gain the powers of a god of thieves? One steals it. Grants Sleight of Hand.
The Castaway Physically stranded in a world of otherness, a mortal absorbed so much energy from an alien world, they reached vestige status. Grants Survival.

Can't really think of one for Acrobatics and Stealth (unless you want to roll them in with the same ideas as Athletics and Sleight of Hand).

I didn't want to have one for every possible skill; I didn't want to have too many options for vestiges for one thing: my focus was on social and knowledge skills, with a few scattered others where it made sense. Investigation is one I would like to see added though and I have a loose set of ideas for a vestige that will work with it, but it wasn't ready for the "alpha release".

EDIT: The Investigation Vestige is in, "The Question", an amalgamation of erased knowledge and history. Somewhat similar to The Lost, in that it's a communal intelligence born of disembodied thoughts, but while The Lost is bound together by misplaced magic, The Question is bound by the divine forbiddance of the powerful beings that sealed away the secrets.

BerzerkerUnit
2020-03-06, 10:27 PM
Feedback:

Fighter Archetype: Olympian

I like this well enough. Would definitely allow it as a DM, but it's not super exciting. I do not know how to improve it. You gain all but one of the events by the time you complete this; are you looking for more suggestions for events to add? Also, it's a fighter. You can go wild and most people won't think it's overpowered. I'd say the shotput should require two hands (I never did it, but it looks that way) and should specify that you do or do not have proficiency for the attack. Discus needs a range as a whole new weapon, and why is it special? Special implies there's more rules to read to get what it does. Wrestling is by far my favorite for a character I would actually play. The jumping and running ones seem fine, if underwhelming. Decathlete is fine for the superhuman things that 18th level characters are supposed to do.

Thanks so much for the feedback!

I never thought of the champion as particularly exciting so I used this as a chance to make a similar ďbetter than basicĒ fighter with more choices and widgets. As you level you mostly just get better at basic actions but get a few more options and a lot more choice in how you improve.

The idea for the discus is still half baked. The special quality right now is a place holder but supposed to be related to its ability to get around cover.

Shot put is a one handed toss. Since the rules generally interfere with making multiple thrown attacks I thought the ability to throw a single small object for ďCantripĒ damage was an approach to a fix, Like the scaling damage of the Javelin and the range of the hammer throw events bringing the thrown ranges up to par with smaller bows/crossbows.

Iíll go back in and add Proficiency bonus for clarity to some of the entries.

RickAsWritten
2020-03-09, 12:34 PM
Feedback:Sorcerous Origin: Threadweaver
Love the tie-in to Greek mythology. I really don't have much to say, except the 18th level ability is weird and non-intuitive, though it remains thematic. Maybe tighten the wording? Not that it's long, it just would by necessity become a more elegant and easily understood feature if you managed to get the point across with fewer words. Sorry if that's not very helpful.

Thanks for the feedback. You're right, the phrasing isn't quite clear on that ability. I'll put some thought into reworking it.

Some quick feedback for the completed ones:

I like it. It adds some fun new toys for a Fighter. I think it needs a ribbon ability or two. All the subclasses that offer a choice from an existing ability at higher levels still have other, weaker abilities at those levels. So something for skills or non-combat for 7th, 10th, and 15th would make this subclass shine.

A lot to unpack here. Overall I like it. Some of those Vestige powers look fun as heck. There's probably some power-level variations between the Vestiges, but nothing that stood out as egregious. I normally don't love to add a tertiary stat onto a subclass, but you've reduced the MADness some by including the static +1, +2, +3

I love the corporate-devil theme. I like the choice from any spell list. I think the level 6 ability is a bit on the weak-side/boring-side and the immunity at level 10 is a little on the strong-side. It evens out, but there are definitely some power-spikes and power-lulls there. Levels 6 to 10 might feel like a drag. Soul Splice is a good idea for fixing Mystic Arcanum, but I think the wording could be cleaned up a bit. Much like my capstone, your capstone could use a rewrite to get it simpler and more clear.

Man_Over_Game
2020-03-09, 01:10 PM
I've been thinking about it since the last contest went dormant during the great forum coma, and yeah, I didn't have a strong idea at first either. I felt like there were a ton of ways I could just insert choices into almost any subclass I could think of, but it always just felt like I was coming up with 3+ different subclasses that just mix and match features like the Totem Barbarian does. I wanted the choices to be more meaningful, and to interact with each other.

You could do something like a Monk I made a while back:

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?577152-Monk-Subclass-Way-of-the-Savage-Heart-(Animal-form-Monk)

I'd use it, but since it's shared somewhere outside of the contest, but inside the forum, it'd be against the contest rules.

The idea is that you're still creating 3 different specific choices, but key elements to the overall subclass makes your choice relevant and ties in the concept of the subclass, as opposed to the powers of the choices tying to each other.

For example, mine used a special attack action to utilize a special mechanic of your choice, but the special mechanics are all isolated from one another. It'd be akin to saying that a Totem Barbarian can only choose a single animal for all of its choices, but it can change its choice every time it casts its Speak with Beasts ritual. Or that the Four Elements Monk can only choose a single element for all of its choices, but the first Ki point he spends each turn is refunded.

This is enough to make the subclass have a feeling (A barbarian that converses with animal spirits, a Monk that utilizes the endless energies around him, a Monk that uses the savagery of beasts) without having to create a convoluted balancing act of micromanaging how every combination is going to impact one another (akin to the Totem Barbarian).

The other problem with having something be hyper-customizable, like the Totem Barbarian, is that certain combinations feel almost required. Bear Totem #1 works best with Bear Totem #3. This may be intentional, but it gives the illusion of choice. Players will almost always choose that which is best for a concept, and that concept is already pre-defined by your level 3 feature. There's not much of a reason that players would choose a different concept later on, so removing that choice (as I did with my homebrew subclass) doesn't feel like a loss (you don't prioritize mobility if you went Bear Totem on your first choice).

As a result, I had the luxury of working with 3 isolated systems as opposed to 3 interlocking ones.

Damon_Tor
2020-03-09, 04:23 PM
A lot to unpack here. Overall I like it. Some of those Vestige powers look fun as heck. There's probably some power-level variations between the Vestiges, but nothing that stood out as egregious. I normally don't love to add a tertiary stat onto a subclass, but you've reduced the MADness some by including the static +1, +2, +3

There are vestiges that are generally useful, vestiges that are situationally useful, and vestiges that are designed to drive combos.

The Ascendant is probably the most generally useful, but it also carries with it the least combo potential. Any damage-focused build will want The Void and control-focused build will want The Prisoner, and The Guardian is a great way to get more mileage out of either playstyle when dealing with a wide battlefield. These I consider "core vestiges" and I would expect most binders would take at least one.

The Lost is very useful when facing spellcasters, or if you and/or your party gets their concentration broken a lot. The Question is indispensable when fighting things you can't see. The Indebted is important to keep in your back pocket if someone in your party dies. These are situational vestiges: very useful to have in your "vestiges known" but not something you would automatically bind every day.

The Shadow and The Abdicant have interesting uses on their own (Feign Death becomes a powerful control spell, Warding Bond becomes much more useful when you can cast it through the barbarian) but they work best in combination (For example turning Warding Bond into a way to reflect damage onto an enemy). Similarly, the Paradox is useful enough by itself just to reroll a spell from the ground up every once in a while the dice don't go your way, but its more important use is when used together with other vestiges, like using its properties during downtime to inoculate your party against void damage (noted in the Q&A). These are the vestiges for guys like me that thrive on complex systems and flipping switches and seeing what weird things they can make happen, but I expect most others won't care for them.

But that's the beautiful thing about this theme, right? Choices.

nickl_2000
2020-03-10, 12:48 PM
I keep wanting to make a Fey based sorcerer class. It's been sitting in my ideas pile for over a year now, but I just can't get it to work. However, this one jumped out at me more.

Second draft of Paladin, Oath of the Planar Warrior is completed and ready for functional review. This is a subclass based on channeling the power of the planes through themselves to do different things.

Please feel free to rip it apart and give your opinions :)



My own reviews of completed subclasses will be coming in the next few days

nickl_2000
2020-03-12, 09:37 AM
Here we go on reviews.



Why three spells for the Spell options? It goes against the standard for oath spells

Channel Divinity - This is pretty weak and pretty situational. I would look at having a second channel divinity option that is usable in more situtions. Additionally, I would make this one be an auto-success or if you don't want to do that let them re-roll with advantage.

More will come when you finish the sub-class.





Events - I see several of these that require objects. What is your plan on the objects? is it something that you need to buy? Are they new exotic weapons? Also, are they ranged weapons so you can use dex or str?

Shotput - The damage on this seems low considering that there are no additional effects. Why would I choose to do this over a longbow that gives 1d8+dex x2 at level 5. You can keep the damage as it is currently, but give a rider of some sort. Knock down maybe? Something else. Or you can give more incremental damage increases.

Hammer Toss - I like this, it's a flat out improvement and usefuly for strength fighters. Although as written I could throw a maul using my dex mod for attack and damage. Is that expected?

Discus - Why is this a full action, it really should be an attack in my mind even if it ignore half-cover. I would even consider "You may draw and throw as an attack" then also ignore half cover, but make it a 1d6 damage weapon.

Javelin - Cool, think it would work to allow drawing multiple in a single attack action as well?

Wrestling - So, this will make you cause damage when someone attempts to escape and fails. Is that intended? (even if it isn't it should be, because that's cool).

Decathalete - This is very fitting and powerful for a capstone. I like it a lot.





Ohh an intelligence based warlock. That has my curiosity peaked immediately.

Mutable Invocations - This one feels a little broken to me. Invocations are pretty darn powerful as they are currently so 2 extra ones is really good. The problem becomes that you can switch invocations when you bind a new vestige. So, I can choose an invocation that allows me to cast a spell 1 time per day. Then, when I take a short rest I can switch that invocation out with a different one that lets me cast a spell X times per day. That alone allows you to increases the spells cast by a warlock by a large amount. The extra invocations seem fine, it's the switching at a short rest that seems like a problem to me (especially at level 14 when you can bind 3 at once).

Power- Ascendant Overreach - So, you can actually get higher than you spell level with this. Does that seem like a problem to you? I don't think it would be all that bad, but I have to check
Power - Champion of the Abdicant - This sucker is pretty powerful and I love it. I can't tell if I love it because I can abuse it or because it's a cool power though :)
Power- Lost and Found - This definitely needs
Power- Void Bloom - please, please, please don't make it permanent. You can break so many NPCs this way for DMs. Making it last until the next long rest should fit the need without ticking off them DM







Magical Boon - I think that wording on this needs to be cleaned up. The ability seems fine, reading it is confusing though
"When you complete a long rest, you may choose one level 1 or higher spell, at a level you can cast, to become a known warlock spell for you" or something like that is a little clearer.

Overall it has a good feel, and is one of the less complicated subclasses in this contest. I'm a pretty big fin of the design here.






Paths of Thread
Threadcutter - This is super, super powerful at early levels. You can take a sorcerer who gets 2 or 3 spell at level 1 or 2 and make them have 5-6 level one spells in a day. That's a lot... Even at higher levels 4-5 extra castings of Shield is nothing to scoff at.


Paths Unwound
Threadweaver - The spell ability seems good. The Slight of Hand checks are weird though and just doesn't seem to fit.




Overall seems like a really good batch of subclasses here. Especially since we as a group needded to come up with lots and lots of ideas!

BerzerkerUnit
2020-03-12, 08:20 PM
Here we go on reviews.





Events - I see several of these that require objects. What is your plan on the objects? is it something that you need to buy? Are they new exotic weapons? Also, are they ranged weapons so you can use dex or str?

Shotput - The damage on this seems low considering that there are no additional effects. Why would I choose to do this over a longbow that gives 1d8+dex x2 at level 5. You can keep the damage as it is currently, but give a rider of some sort. Knock down maybe? Something else. Or you can give more incremental damage increases.

Hammer Toss - I like this, it's a flat out improvement and usefuly for strength fighters. Although as written I could throw a maul using my dex mod for attack and damage. Is that expected?

Discus - Why is this a full action, it really should be an attack in my mind even if it ignore half-cover. I would even consider "You may draw and throw as an attack" then also ignore half cover, but make it a 1d6 damage weapon.

Javelin - Cool, think it would work to allow drawing multiple in a single attack action as well?

Wrestling - So, this will make you cause damage when someone attempts to escape and fails. Is that intended? (even if it isn't it should be, because that's cool).

Decathalete - This is very fitting and powerful for a capstone. I like it a lot.



Overall seems like a really good batch of subclasses here. Especially since we as a group needded to come up with lots and lots of ideas!

Thanks so much for the feedback!

Iím still working on Discus. Thereís something cooking to do with arcing the toss, itís still half baked. This is the only one that needs an item write up that I can think of.

Shotput is intended to allow you to throw any object that sort of fits the weight and shape. So stones, small , chests, boxes or casks are all fair game and deal the listed damage which is intended to roughly match Cantrip damage, but adds Str. The damage scaling is to offset the draw limitations for thrown weapons.

While Dex can be used for most of this, itís not a path to any optimization I can see, this would pale in comparison to an Arcane archer or battlemaster, and itís intended to present some viable, niche options for the Str based fighter.

Wrestling is even better.

RickAsWritten
2020-03-13, 08:54 AM
Here we go on reviews.



Paths of Thread
Threadcutter - This is super, super powerful at early levels. You can take a sorcerer who gets 2 or 3 spell at level 1 or 2 and make them have 5-6 level one spells in a day. That's a lot... Even at higher levels 4-5 extra castings of Shield is nothing to scoff at.


Paths Unwound
Threadweaver - The spell ability seems good. The Slight of Hand checks are weird though and just doesn't seem to fit.




Thanks for the feedback. I may move the Threadcutter 1st level ability to 14th level, with some minor alteration. I don't really like the current 14th level Threadcutter ability. It's on theme, but kinda bland. And then I can come up with a new ability for 1st level.

I chose Sleight of Hand because it is the best representation for skill at weaving. As a DM, if a player wanted to weave a blanket or sow a shirt, I'd probably call for a Sleight of Hand check, maybe a Sleight of Hand check using Intelligence (like the rope tying check in Xanathar's). Any thoughts? Maybe it could be something not skill related, like the Threadreader one.

nickl_2000
2020-03-13, 09:50 AM
Thanks so much for the feedback!

Iím still working on Discus. Thereís something cooking to do with arcing the toss, itís still half baked. This is the only one that needs an item write up that I can think of.

Shotput is intended to allow you to throw any object that sort of fits the weight and shape. So stones, small , chests, boxes or casks are all fair game and deal the listed damage which is intended to roughly match Cantrip damage, but adds Str. The damage scaling is to offset the draw limitations for thrown weapons.

While Dex can be used for most of this, itís not a path to any optimization I can see, this would pale in comparison to an Arcane archer or battlemaster, and itís intended to present some viable, niche options for the Str based fighter.

Wrestling is even better.


This is actually a pretty difficult contest. It's not just 1 idea per level, but multiple. You have a good solid start. if you happen to finish it and feel comfortable, let us know and I will look it over again.




Thanks for the feedback. I may move the Threadcutter 1st level ability to 14th level, with some minor alteration. I don't really like the current 14th level Threadcutter ability. It's on theme, but kinda bland. And then I can come up with a new ability for 1st level.

I chose Sleight of Hand because it is the best representation for skill at weaving. As a DM, if a player wanted to weave a blanket or sow a shirt, I'd probably call for a Sleight of Hand check, maybe a Sleight of Hand check using Intelligence (like the rope tying check in Xanathar's). Any thoughts? Maybe it could be something not skill related, like the Threadreader one.


Moving it to 14 would be a solid choice.

I can see why you would use slight of hand for that. So, if you want to keep it that way I don't see anything wrong with it. If you just give it a little bit more fluff in the ability it should take care of it.

Damon_Tor
2020-03-13, 02:18 PM
Ohh an intelligence based warlock. That has my curiosity peaked immediately.

Mutable Invocations - This one feels a little broken to me. Invocations are pretty darn powerful as they are currently so 2 extra ones is really good. The problem becomes that you can switch invocations when you bind a new vestige. So, I can choose an invocation that allows me to cast a spell 1 time per day. Then, when I take a short rest I can switch that invocation out with a different one that lets me cast a spell X times per day. That alone allows you to increases the spells cast by a warlock by a large amount. The extra invocations seem fine, it's the switching at a short rest that seems like a problem to me (especially at level 14 when you can bind 3 at once).

I am planning to dial this back some: my current plan is to give each vestige a selection of thematically appropriate Invocations and give the binder just one extra invocation which has to be one known by an active vestige. He can still trade it out on a short rest, but he's limited by his known vestiges (and thus his investiture in intelligence) and by having just the one invocation that's mutable.

One of my design goals here was to make a warlock that was closer to a "full caster", and one of the disparities is the lack of access to a ton of low level spell slots to cast utility spells with at mid/high tier. The warlock base class solves this to a limited degree with invocations, so building on that system seems like the natural choice. But I agree that it was too strong as written.


Power- Ascendant Overreach - So, you can actually get higher than you spell level with this. Does that seem like a problem to you? I don't think it would be all that bad, but I have to check

So can sorcerers using Flexible Casting, so this isn't unprecedented. And another key difference is that a Sorcerer can use sorcery points to turn a level 4 spell slot into a level 5 spell slot then cast a level 5 spell with it. The warlock can only use this to upcast, not to cast a higher level spell. Granted, sorcerers can't cast extra level 6 spells with this tactic while a binder can, but then again Warlocks can't usually cast more than 1 level 6 spells in a day anyway, and the one they can cast is highly constrained by the Mystic Arcanum system, so giving them a 1/short rest ability to boost a level 5 spell to a level 6 spell accomplishes my "closer to a full caster" design goal. And there are only very limited ways a warlock can boost level 6-8 spells by turning them up a level (and level 9 spells do nothing different when cast at "level 10") so it isn't much of a concern past mid-tier. Most of the time this is either +1 target for a control spell or +1 dice of damage for a damage spell.


Power - Champion of the Abdicant - This sucker is pretty powerful and I love it. I can't tell if I love it because I can abuse it or because it's a cool power though :)

Yes, I like it too. Definitely something that would make other spellcasters consider a warlock dip. Cast Tenser's Transformation on the Fighter? Yes, I would like that, thank you.


Power- Lost and Found - This definitely needs

I see what you did there.


Power- Void Bloom - please, please, please don't make it permanent. You can break so many NPCs this way for DMs. Making it last until the next long rest should fit the need without ticking off them DM

What if it can be removed via Remove Curse? I do want to allow the binder to inoculate himself and his allies against it permanently, as sort of a weaker shape-spell defense for allies against his blast, and I would like it if it wasn't something someone could just sleep off. Remove Curse is a common enough spell (IIRC, every temple offers it as a basic service) and notably it's on the warlock list, so our boy would have a solution if he accidentally tagged himself or a buddy with it and didn't know how to bind The Paradox.

nickl_2000
2020-03-13, 02:26 PM
What if it can be removed via Remove Curse? I do want to allow the binder to inoculate himself and his allies against it permanently, as sort of a weaker shape-spell defense for allies against his blast, and I would like it if it wasn't something someone could just sleep off. Remove Curse is a common enough spell (IIRC, every temple offers it as a basic service) and notably it's on the warlock list, so our boy would have a solution if he accidentally tagged himself or a buddy with it and didn't know how to bind The Paradox.

That would be fine with me. There is a huge difference between it's there forever no matter what you do and "You can remove the effect with Remove Cure, Greater Restoration, or a Wish." That seems like a good compromise.

Damon_Tor
2020-03-13, 06:48 PM
Made several changes, most based on nickl's suggestions.

-Mutable Invocations changed to Vestigial Invocation, a much more limited (and, IMO, more flavorful) ability
-Added a clause to Lost and Found which reduces the duration of the duplicate spell you cast by the elapsed duration of the spell that triggers the ability
-Void Vulnerability and Resistance can now be removed via Remove Curse, Greater Restoration, or Wish

nickl_2000
2020-03-14, 09:47 AM
Made several changes, most based on nickl's suggestions.

-Mutable Invocations changed to Vestigial Invocation, a much more limited (and, IMO, more flavorful) ability
-Added a clause to Lost and Found which reduces the duration of the duplicate spell you cast by the elapsed duration of the spell that triggers the ability
-Void Vulnerability and Resistance can now be removed via Remove Curse, Greater Restoration, or Wish

Looks like a very good change to me. Vestigial Invocation is still abusable, but in a appropriate way (at least in my mind).

Phhase
2020-03-15, 11:03 PM
Ight sorry for the delay. Artificer specialty: Machinist is up. It's a little all over the place, but I think it has some merit. It's certainly got no end of choices to make. Enjoy!

Damon_Tor
2020-03-19, 09:45 PM
My thoughts on what's been posted so far:

I strongly encourage a "summoner" artificer build, it makes perfect sense. For context, it's worth noting that I made my own homebrew summons-based artificer quite recently. That means that it's a bit hard for me to be entirely objective about the differences in how you handled it compared to my approach, so I'm going to skip over some of the purely subjective differences and get to the one place I think you need to dial back on hard: balance. In particular, the CR you allow for the mechanist's minions is far past the curve of what any summon-based class is currently capable of. At sixth level, a druid can summon a group of animals with a total CR of 2 for one hour, three times per day, and it costs him his three third level spell slots. A sixth level necromancer wizard can have a team of six skeletons/zombies with a total CR of 1.5, lasting all day but still costing him his three third level spell slots. The mechanist can have a team with a total CR of 5 with him all day, every day, with no reduction in his spell-casting ability at all.

This means your mechanist will have more than double the man-power of another summoner build, and will have the same number of spell slots available for others things as compared to a full caster dedicated to the concept because he's using no magic to keep his army running. It appears to be balanced instead by gold and prep time, which isn't inherently bad, but no other class is really designed that way, and it puts the DM in a weird place where he has to watch how much gold he gives you so you can't build an army that's too strong.

In my opinion, you should keep the CR of your total horde to 1/4 of your artificer level (with fractions explicitly allowed due to the existence of CR 1/8 and 1/4 NPCs) which will keep you in the "all day" power level range of the necromancer's skele-squad. If you feel the need to justify the cost of the materials for the creations to feel "real" make building AND sourcing the materials a single downtime activity without a gold cost: you could hand-waive this as your guy selling lesser automatons on the side to fund his more dangerous creations, or salvaging his parts from a junkyard, but it wouldn't force the DM to award you a certain amount of gold just to use your class features.

I like the infusions you designed for your robots, and all the one-of-three choices you've come up with are great. Really it's all very solid except for the core issue of how crazy strong your squad can get, and the weirdness of the gold cost.

This is my favorite so far, literally a paladin of choosing things. Great way to take the core concept and run with it.

Not sure about some of the spells you picked and how they relate to the theme.

Unstoppable Charge and Inexorable March are great.

Aura of will is kind of boring, but then again so are most of the paladin aura improvements, so par for the course I suppose.

Invincible Idea is perfect.

I feel like you took the theme and ran with it a little too hard, shoehorning everything into several core "events" rather than building a coherent and viable subclass. Do Shotput and Hammer Throw need their own individual options? Can they be combined into a more general "throw heavy thing" feature? I'm alright introducing a new weapon type, ie the discus, but it seems pretty redundant compared to the javelins anyway. The subclass is basically "very mobile skirmisher javelin specialist" which is totally fine, but I feel like all the other stuff is pretty redundant.

You short-change the potential this guy could have as an unarmed combatant: aside from wrestling, the Greeks included boxing and a boxing/wrestling hybrid that was effectively MMA, so if anyone should get a dynamite unarmed combat package it would be these guys.

You're also missing any equestrian specialties, and I think there's a place in my heart for a chariot specialist fighter.

Much love to a multi-patron concept.

A warlock, with his flexible slots, is a dangerous person to give access to any spell. Any spell a wizard can use to break an economy in half (be it a financial economy or an action economy) with three or four castings on a given day a warlock can tear to ribbons with thirty or forty. There should be a daily limit set on the any-list spell, whether that's your charisma modifier or something else.

Probably my second favorite right now.

Mechanically, very solid. It's a very subtle subclass for a class that's usually very flashy: this is a great niche, and one not well filled. Even the shadow sorcerer has splashy features of ominous and obvious darkness, but this is smooth. The portent-esque features are nice without stepping on the diviner's toes.

I'm a bit concerned about a Threadcutter/Threadweaver being a bit too resource efficient in terms of spells per day, but it would be a very minor overtuning if anything, and frankly I'm stretching to find something to be critical of.

Great spell list. The rest of the spell lists so far have been a bit befuddling to me, but yours is perfect. Useful, topical, fun.

I'm actually reading this for the first time right now: it must not have been finished the last time I went through it, and damn it's cool. Rethinking my current ranking.

The switching of planar alignment is rad. All the abilities are cool.

Great work overall, nothing to criticize. If I have one quibble, it's that the capstone ability specifically calls out an ability relating to the shadowfell (the teleportation) but that's the only one that's specifically namedropped. IMO, just get rid of that reference: you can just as easily teleport via any of the other planes (and what if he's in the shadowfell to begin with?). But that is a reeeeal stretch for something to complain about. Great job.

I'm not sure I care for them getting both 1/3 caster slots AND full use of Ki. Seems like overkill, both in terms of powerlevel and options paralysis.

In general, this seems like less of one subclass with many choices, and four different subclasses that have a few things in common. You can't mix and match features and you can't change your choices, so how is a "Cat Feyral" not it's own distinct subclass when compared to the "Snake Feyral"? Yes, there are branching choices down the line which helps keep things on point, but even then the same problems persist because those choices are explicitly locked in when you pick them.

MoleMage
2020-03-19, 11:05 PM
Put together a hasty translation of my 3.5 Juggler prestige class (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=23007346&postcount=5) for this. It's got some stuff to iron out still for sure, but I think all the choices are compelling enough that even if some are objectively better the others will still get picked.

BerzerkerUnit
2020-03-20, 12:12 AM
My thoughts on what's been posted so far:

[

I feel like you took the theme and ran with it a little too hard, shoehorning everything into several core "events" rather than building a coherent and viable subclass. Do Shotput and Hammer Throw need their own individual options? Can they be combined into a more general "throw heavy thing" feature? I'm alright introducing a new weapon type, ie the discus, but it seems pretty redundant compared to the javelins anyway. The subclass is basically "very mobile skirmisher javelin specialist" which is totally fine, but I feel like all the other stuff is pretty redundant.

You short-change the potential this guy could have as an unarmed combatant: aside from wrestling, the Greeks included boxing and a boxing/wrestling hybrid that was effectively MMA, so if anyone should get a dynamite unarmed combat package it would be these guys.

You're also missing any equestrian specialties, and I think there's a place in my heart for a chariot specialist fighter.

[

Thanks so much for your feedback!

I emphatically disagree with almost every point.

I donít think anything indicates javelin specialist beyond one of the events being javelin based.

This was intended to be a ďstraightforward fighterĒ akin to the Champion but with the emphasis on Choices, the theme of the contest. But each choice improves core functionality: mobility, versatility of weapon choice, variety of possible actions.

Hammer Throw and Shotput are both very different, and serve different purposes: one-handed vs two handed, ranges, possible damage (Shotput is single action with Cantrip type damage), one can be used with ďwhateverĒ and the other is for heavy weapons.

The Discus is giving me trouble and swapping it for a Chariot event doesnít seem like a bad idea beyond common associations. The Discus is a ďlegendaryĒ Olympic event with a famed classical sculpture. The Spartacus movie made the Chariot seem more associated with gladiatorial events.

As for Wrestling, Pankration was a fairly formalized combat form. I think what I have here is a sweet spot between a bump and a straight unarmed focused subclass.

Thanks again for giving me something to think about!

nickl_2000
2020-03-20, 06:57 AM
My thoughts on what's been posted so far:


Great spell list. The rest of the spell lists so far have been a bit befuddling to me, but yours is perfect. Useful, topical, fun.

I'm actually reading this for the first time right now: it must not have been finished the last time I went through it, and damn it's cool. Rethinking my current ranking.

The switching of planar alignment is rad. All the abilities are cool.

Great work overall, nothing to criticize. If I have one quibble, it's that the capstone ability specifically calls out an ability relating to the shadowfell (the teleportation) but that's the only one that's specifically namedropped. IMO, just get rid of that reference: you can just as easily teleport via any of the other planes (and what if he's in the shadowfell to begin with?). But that is a reeeeal stretch for something to complain about. Great job.



I'm not sure why I specified the shadowfell here, maybe it was some memory about the wording of the Way of the Shadow monk (although looking at it this morning, it says nothing about the shadowfell). I changed it to this instead to make it more generic


As a bonus action, you can make a short step into another plane then back, teleporting you up to 30 ft.


Luckily for me, there are lots and lot of spells that use the planes in 5e. So, I had an abundance of spells to choose from in the spell lists :smalltongue: Thanks for the review.

sengmeng
2020-03-20, 12:24 PM
Much love to a multi-patron concept.

A warlock, with his flexible slots, is a dangerous person to give access to any spell. Any spell a wizard can use to break an economy in half (be it a financial economy or an action economy) with three or four castings on a given day a warlock can tear to ribbons with thirty or forty. There should be a daily limit set on the any-list spell, whether that's your charisma modifier or something else.

Good point. I decided the simplest and cleanest fix was "slots used to cast your Magical Boon spell are refreshed on a long rest, but not a short rest." So a tiny bit of extra bookkeeping in exchange for not breaking everything.

I will try to get feedback to those who have finished since my last round of feedback. Also speak up if you've made changes since and want the revised version evaluated.

nickl_2000
2020-03-20, 12:37 PM
And I apologize, but there will be no more reviews coming from me this time around. Life just got crazy after bringing home a new baby and it doesn't lend itself to reviews on complication subclasses like in this contest. Good luck everyone!

Segev
2020-03-20, 03:01 PM
And I apologize, but there will be no more reviews coming from me this time around. Life just got crazy after bringing home a new baby and it doesn't lend itself to reviews on complication subclasses like in this contest. Good luck everyone!

Congratulations! Have fun with your newborn and your spouse. :smallsmile:

nickl_2000
2020-03-20, 03:43 PM
Congratulations! Have fun with your newborn and your spouse. :smallsmile:

Thanks, I think her older brothers are the most excited ones :)

Segev
2020-03-20, 03:57 PM
Thanks, I think her older brothers are the most excited ones :)

"Her" being the newborn or your wife? Because soon-to-be-big-brother excitement and uncle excitement are different things. If she has big brothers, though, lucky them. :)

nickl_2000
2020-03-21, 09:51 AM
"Her" being the newborn or your wife? Because soon-to-be-big-brother excitement and uncle excitement are different things. If she has big brothers, though, lucky them. :)

Her is the newborn, although my wife is also excited. We have a mess of children, all boys other than the new little one. This is actually the first girl of the generation in my family, so there are a lot of people excited.

RickAsWritten
2020-03-23, 01:49 PM
Her is the newborn, although my wife is also excited. We have a mess of children, all boys other than the new little one. This is actually the first girl of the generation in my family, so there are a lot of people excited.

Congrats man.



I updated the Threadweaver based on feedback given. Thanks to all that helped.

Update found here: Sorcerous Origin: Threadweaver (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24387820&postcount=7)

KragBrightscale
2020-03-26, 01:01 AM
Just some feedback:
fighter subclass: The Olympian:
Love it, definitely seems a more interesting and customizable than the standard champion.
As mentioned by others, some ribbon or non event options/features could be good. Some ideas:
1)Being an Olympian/professional athelete usually comes with recognition and fame. A feature could plays on renown for some role play opportunities.
2)Competitive events usually have strict regulations/rules. Could there be a benefit in following rules?
3)Athletes are usually Keep fit, could this provide a minor boost to their health or physical stats?

Apart from that, Iím all for including even more events.

Phhase
2020-03-26, 01:10 AM
My thoughts on what's been posted so far:

I strongly encourage a "summoner" artificer build, it makes perfect sense. For context, it's worth noting that I made my own homebrew summons-based artificer quite recently. That means that it's a bit hard for me to be entirely objective about the differences in how you handled it compared to my approach, so I'm going to skip over some of the purely subjective differences and get to the one place I think you need to dial back on hard: balance. In particular, the CR you allow for the mechanist's minions is far past the curve of what any summon-based class is currently capable of. At sixth level, a druid can summon a group of animals with a total CR of 2 for one hour, three times per day, and it costs him his three third level spell slots. A sixth level necromancer wizard can have a team of six skeletons/zombies with a total CR of 1.5, lasting all day but still costing him his three third level spell slots. The mechanist can have a team with a total CR of 5 with him all day, every day, with no reduction in his spell-casting ability at all.

This means your mechanist will have more than double the man-power of another summoner build, and will have the same number of spell slots available for others things as compared to a full caster dedicated to the concept because he's using no magic to keep his army running. It appears to be balanced instead by gold and prep time, which isn't inherently bad, but no other class is really designed that way, and it puts the DM in a weird place where he has to watch how much gold he gives you so you can't build an army that's too strong.

In my opinion, you should keep the CR of your total horde to 1/4 of your artificer level (with fractions explicitly allowed due to the existence of CR 1/8 and 1/4 NPCs) which will keep you in the "all day" power level range of the necromancer's skele-squad. If you feel the need to justify the cost of the materials for the creations to feel "real" make building AND sourcing the materials a single downtime activity without a gold cost: you could hand-waive this as your guy selling lesser automatons on the side to fund his more dangerous creations, or salvaging his parts from a junkyard, but it wouldn't force the DM to award you a certain amount of gold just to use your class features.

I like the infusions you designed for your robots, and all the one-of-three choices you've come up with are great. Really it's all very solid except for the core issue of how crazy strong your squad can get, and the weirdness of the gold cost.

Thanks! :smallbiggrin: The way I was thinking of it was that while yes, you can have a big army, that army and what you can do to it is all you have (more or less). So to speak, everything revolves around them, and any one machine being disabled means losing everything that machine was bringing to the fight as well (as well as resources). Losing a machine means losing access to more class features than usual.

Think of the machines like magical items in the sense that you're spending gold and time on them, not to mention the fact that they're usually in danger during fights (And receive less healing!). So while yes, they are powerful, they also have a potentially high maintenance cost that might make one loath to treat them as expendable.

Also note that you can only have five machines if you have at least 20 INT, which may not be the case for some time. And also every time you level up, you have to pay in order for your machines to "level up" too. Only your initial level 3 set of machines is free.

On the other end, consider that since skeletons are humanoid, you can outfit them with (potentially magical) weapons and armor, which you can't do for machines.

All that said, you are right, the power level is high (Especially considering innate qualities or attacks the machine bring to the table - I'm gonna have to make some exclusions to valid machine form choices. No Gorgons or Cockatrices!). I'll consider curbing it, but I'm not yet sure how I want to.

Changelog for Machinist!


Added missing damage types to Energy Projector: Lightning, Acid, and Physical.

Slightly bumped burn damage of Waters of Phlegethos.

Mana Battery now requires only 9th level.

Added new infusions: Anode, Static Discharge, Magplating, Magfield, Deus Est Machina.

Deus Est Machina is kinda silly power-wise, if you think about it. But it's cool, innit?



Feedback Time! At last. There are some especially great entries this time around.



Oath Spells: I like the idea of creating a different Oath Spell dynamic, but just ONE spell, swapping per long rest seems a little prohibitive. Consider a metric for increasing the number of Oath Flexes. Ex: Number of spells equal to Cha Modifier, calculated by level, one per spell level, etc.

Voice of Freedom: I like it! Just be sure to specify that it cleanses any effect that reduces a creature's speed to zero, not effects that onlyreduce a creature's speed to 0.

Unstoppable Charge: Nice, no problems.

Aura of Liberty: Rephrase so that it uses your already existing Aura of Protection. Ex: "At the end of each long rest, choose one of the following enhancements to apply to your Aura of Protection..." Otherwise, no problems! I really like the remote Divine Smite. You may also wish to consider advantage vs effects that would move the target against their will.

Inexorable March: Good, but riddle me this: What happens if you shove a target backwards during your charge? Do you hit them again once you reach them? What happens if you shove them into another creature in your path? Do you start rolling up a big Katamari of enemies until the end of your charge?

Invincible Idea: Great, but clarify the fact that creatures can continue fighting at 0 HP (But can still die and must still make death saves).

Overall pretty solid! I probably wouldn't play it, but I'd love if someone else in the party wanted to.




Add some formatting just for clarity.
Events: Interesting take on maneuvers.

Shotput: Solid, BUT. Treat it like a weapon entry. Say "You become proficient with" if you now apply your proficiency score to attacks made with the object. Also qualify any weapon attributes the item gains. Ex: "...gains the Thrown property, with a range of..." This advice is relevant to several entries, so I'll just mark those with the tag Rephrase.

Hammer Toss: I like this. Reminds my of Roy's Sword. Rephrase.

Discus: Rephrase. Also, create an item entry for the new weapon.

Javelin: Looks good.

Hurdles: A bit niche but ok.

Sprinting: Synergy with Hurdles is good. Not sure what the use case is, but being Sanic can be cool.

Marathon: It's fine, but the phrasing itches my brain a bit, since most exhaustion effects already allow a saving throw. At your discretion, use "...another saving throw..." instead. This is an incredibly small nit though, disregard freely.

Long & High Jump: So, what you're saying is that if I use Crazy Cool Celt's Thri-kreen race, (10ft high jump, 30ft long jump, no running starts required), triple that with Boots of Striding and Springing, the jump spell, Long Jump, and High Jump, I'll be able to make a...360ft high jump and a 1080ft long jump!? From a standing start at any time!?

Dude. Count me in. Something something tall buildings in a single bound. Just remember this: The long jump in isolation as your only movement in a round involves moving at a calculated 123 miles per hour. If you can also take the Dash action as a bonus action, and are under the effects of haste, and have a movement speed of 30ft, then you can travel 145 miles per hour.

I think. Lol.

Pole Vault: As with Hurdles, interesting, not sure about the use case.

Wrestling: A little redundant ever since the Class Feature Variants UA introduced the Unarmed fighting style, which does much of the same things. IF it stacks, ok I guess. but consider other benefits. Also, if you have monk levels, do you apply your martial arts dice instead, sine that's your unarmed attack damage?

Decathlete: Feels like swimming speed should be an Event option. Ok otherwise.

Overall, seems ok! Maybe even a little underpowered.





Excellent idea. Truly excellent. Has someone done this before? Seems crazy, but I don't think so.

Magical Boon: A very interesting riff on Magical Secrets. However, similar to Oath of Volition, I think literally one spell is too few. Two or three at later levels would be best. But no more. Also, I don't like how the long rest spell slots work. If you use all your slots to cast that spell, does that mean you turn into a crappy wizard or sorceror? No more slots until your long rest? Seems to violate the core of Warlock.

Forbidden Knowledge: Great idea. However, I think ALL weapons, ALL armors, or ONE skill, language, OR tool is a bit unfair to skills, tools, and languages. Consider gaining proficiency in three weapons, three armors, or three skills, tools, or languages.

You know, one for each member of the IFCC.

Also, 1/short rest to add double your proficiency score seems a little meh. Consider Cha Mod/Long rest instead.

Fiendish Focus: Good, but perhaps you should add the damage to spells of that energy type you cast as well?

Soul Splice: So...wait. This class feature's function is to un-gimp, and in fact, possibly supercharge Magical Boon? While I do like Unlimited Arcane Power, I'm not sure if this is the right way. Does this mean your Mystic Arcanum grenades just become normal slots? That refresh on a short rest? That'd be pretty crazy. My recommendation? This ain't a Soul Splice, try for something closer to the comic.

Closing Thoughts: Formatting! Please! Not for clarity, but for style! Gotta have those IFCC colors, Purple, Yellow, Orange (I think Director Lee is Yellow, Cedrik is Orange, and Nero is Purple)! Also, consider breaking everything down by the Rule of Three! One for each IFCC head! For example, consider this rough edit:

Magical Secrets: At the end of each long rest, the IFCC will grant you access to many more spells than a normal patron, but with a twist. At the end of each long rest, choose up to three spells of up to the highest level you can cast from one of the IFCC's offered lists. They count as warlock spells that you know.

Director Lee: All Transmutation Spells
Cedrik: All Conjuration Spells
Nero: All Necromancy Spells

Forbidden Knowedge:
Director Lee: Three Weapons.
Cedrik: Three Armors
Nero: Three Skills, tools, or languages (or one of each, if the former is too good)

Three uses of expertise per long rest, of course.

Fiendish Focus: Fine as is, just format according to IFCC standards.

Soul Splice: I say go for a more comic-faithful interpretation. Perhaps once per long rest, A member of the IFCC of choice will grant a soul splice to the player. The player is treated as having every spell from the associated list (see Magical Secrets) list prepared, and gains a few bonus spell slots, but has to make an auxillary Concentration check each time they would normally have to (As well as once per hour), or else the Splice is lost.

But, just my thoughts.



Threadweaver: Oh geez. Mix this with 2 levels of Divination wizard, being a halfling with the racial feat, and the Lucky Feat and you deal 12d6 psychic damage to the DM each time a d20 is rolled. Jesus. This is fun and all, but consider a different effect.

Threadcutter: I think until the END of your next turn would be better, but YMMV. Good otherwise.

Threadreader: Works.

Metaweaver: Sounds good. I like Metamagic.

Weaver II: Weird. Could be cool with the right setup though, I imagine. I kinda don't get the deal of the auras though.

Cutter II: Good. However, consider this: at 20th level, Weaver II lets you regain 6 Sorcery points per long rest by upcasting. A first level spell slot is worth 2 sorcery points, so if you have a Cha score of at least 20, and a bag of 5 rats, then you have 10 sorcery points per long rest instead (or spell slots, alternatively). It's just better in most ways, unless you want the Indimidation advantage. You may want to add a "non-cantrip" or creature size/CR stipulation to avoid this.

Reader II: Looks good, but the non-damaging stipulation is a bit odd. What's the idea here? There are plenty of non-damaging offensive spells. Did you mean "Must target yourself or an ally," or something? It's not bad, just odd.

Followed or Formed: I really like how which 3rd option you get is decided by your previous choices. That's a really neat feature.

Thread of Destiny: Interesting feature! Are sure it should be only once per long rest though? Maybe you should pay a spell slot? Also, the literal interpretation brings intereting metal images to mind. When you take this action, do you, like, momentarily shift into the Plane of Fate to perform your feat?

Fate Breaker: Solid feature, but I feel like the name or effect should change, since fate breaker sound like you're preventing something rather than making more likely to happen.

All in all, some good features! Needs to tying together, but looks cool. Maybe give proficiency with Weaver's tools as a ribbon? :smalltongue:




Congradulatio on the new kid!

Channeling the Planes: Interesting choice. Clean phrasing a bit. Specifically, for Astral, what does "Being attacked" mean? Elaborate. Any attack or spell attack roll? Iunno if Elysium is the right choice for positive energy effects. There is a positive energy plane, after all. Also, the latter three are all the same. Try differentiating.

Planar Aura: As per my advice to Oath of Volition, phrase in terms of your Aura of Protection. Immune to poison damage and poisoned condition is a bit strong. Are you sure you don't just want resist/advantage? Shadowfell is the same as Abyss, try something different for one of them. Celestia is good. Does it stack with Life Cleric's thing?

Empowered Channel Divinity: Astral: I have no idea where the phrasing is going. Reconcile this with the original description. As is, it adds almost (?) nothing. Latter three are all the same, make em' different! Otherwise, it's just the illusion of choice. Well. Moreso.

Planar Warrior: Are you sure you want to be able to deal 2d8 damage of ANY type? Otherwise good.

Overall, needs some polish, but is on a good path. I can see this being an interesting subclass.




Heh. Anyway.

Spellcasting: Are you sure you want to be a 1/3 caster? There's plenty of precedent for just using Ki to cast.

Shilleagh: Might be better just to make it a class feature instead of tying it to the spell. Otherwise good.

Natural Connection: Seems ok. Kinda like the Way of Mercy.

Wild Style: Good overall, but the Fox Spirit choices are a bit too wordy (and keep in mind who this is coming from). Simplify the wording or try something else. Additionally, the second Snake Spirit choice is a bit odd. Just one or two duration clauses are fine.

Primal Form: No complaints! Everything looks fine.

Feyral Form: I get what you're going for, but as above, make it less tangly. As Archer would say: Phrasing!




Put this apple on your head!

This is probably the best juggler/jester type subclass I've seen yet. It really nails the archetype, and I've only got a few nits. First, what happens if you're moved against your will, knocked prone, or otherwise have your juggle interfered with?

It feels a little odd that a Flask ISN'T a "Small, solid object", but I guess.

Apropos of Slippery Dodge, couldn't you just give them an attack of opportunity?

Magic Eater looks great, but just one thing, seems a little off that it affects only things you can Evade. Perhaps allow it to apply to ranged spell attack rolls you Uncanny Dodge?

Flurry of Steel is awesome, but how powerful is it, really? Should there be a limit on uses per long rest?




I really like this. It all comes together really nicely. It's like a literal Yin and Yang inside you.

Tainted Ki: Looks good, but go through the demons and look for ones that embody damage types, there's plenty. Hezrou for poison, Palrethee for fire, Gelugon for cold, Baubau for acid, etc.

Haunted Dreams: Really cool flavor. However, also consider making a roll of 10 represent a decisive mental victory over your personal demons, possibly giving you a bonus.

Freed on Death: Cool idea, but mostly just flavor. Is that ok? I'm not sure.

Tormented Fury: Toggleable Reckless Attack? Interesting. Powerful.

Tormented Mind: Good idea, but consider this: what if you could react to a psychic attack by using the demon within as a sort of mental living shield? Perhaps there could be some kind of backlash on the attacker. That would be pretty cool.

Demonic Emanation: Sounds more like an aura. Interesting ability though. If you end up going with the above idea relating to demon and damage types, consider a different spell list for each damage type.

Final Confrontation: Now this is epic (if edgy). Built in character arc! I'd personally change the word "Succumb" to "Consume" since the text implies you're not losing the battle, you're instead subjugating the demon to your will/consuming its power. Otherwise, looks great!

Great execution. I look forward to voting.



Don't worry, I'll comment on Vestige, but in a bit. I'm tired now.

Damon_Tor
2020-03-26, 02:09 PM
Looking for opinions on something I've been thinking about: how would everyone feel about moving the Vestige Powers to level 6?

As it stands, I feel like the early levels of this subclass are too strong, and that makes it multiclass-bait. On the warlock by itself, with its limited spell list, I feel like the powers are well balanced, but a 1 level dip into a Vestige warlock would be extremely strong for a wizard. I don't want to outright prohibit these powers from being useful for multiclassing: I could go ahead and say they only apply to warlock spells and be done with it, but I don't care for that solution. After all, why shouldn't a Wizard be able to learn from a being like Karsus, or a Druid call on aid from a depleted Guardian spirit, or a Sorcerer tap into a semi-sentient proto-elemental void? But drawing such significant power from these vestiges should take more time and devotion than a single level should allow.

I feel like an extra skill proficiency/expertise and an extended bonus spell selection, choices you can change on a short rest, should be enough of a benefit for levels one through five: most warlock subclasses have a very minor and/or situational benefit at level 1 (with one notable exception, which should be taken as a lesson about avoiding frontloading features into a warlock subclass).

Everything else would stay the same: you would still get your second bound vestige at level 6 and your increase to vestiges known.

MoleMage
2020-03-26, 03:25 PM
Put this apple on your head!

This is probably the best juggler/jester type subclass I've seen yet. It really nails the archetype, and I've only got a few nits. First, what happens if you're moved against your will, knocked prone, or otherwise have your juggle interfered with?

It feels a little odd that a Flask ISN'T a "Small, solid object", but I guess.

Apropos of Slippery Dodge, couldn't you just give them an attack of opportunity?

Magic Eater looks great, but just one thing, seems a little off that it affects only things you can Evade. Perhaps allow it to apply to ranged spell attack rolls you Uncanny Dodge?

Flurry of Steel is awesome, but how powerful is it, really? Should there be a limit on uses per long rest?




I'll get feedback up for everyone this weekend, but for now some responses to this.

Basically as long as your hands are free whenever it isn't your turn, you can keep juggling. You're a professional, juggling laying down or while being dragged around by the scruff of your shirt is hard but not beyond you. I'll rewrite the language to be more clear.

I was wary of giving them a way to reliably AoO because rogues can sneak attack on those. Though I guess I could do that but just leave the sneak attack clause in.

Magic Eater should probably include spell attack rolls as well. I'll update the language to include that.

I hadn't run the math on Flurry of Steel yet, let's see...:


Using a Juggler Rogue and a Rogue without archetype abilities at level 17 (sneak attack 9d6)


Round 1: Juggler uses bonus action to start juggle (3 items) and makes a single attack. Normal rogue makes two attacks.
Round 2: Juggler now has four items in juggle, makes two attacks. Rogue makes two attacks.
Round 3: Juggler now has 5 items in juggle, makes 2 attacks. Rogue makes 2 attacks.
Round 4, juggler now has 6 items in juggle, makes 6 attacks, rogue makes 2 attacks.


In four rounds, the Juggler gets to make 11 attacks, 9 of which add Dex to damage. A normal rogue makes 8, four of which add Dex to damage. This is the optimum use of Flurry of Steel and takes four rounds to set up. Both rogues can use sneak attack four times. Both are assumed to be using short swords or equivalent. We will assume +5 Dex on both by level 17 when the ability becomes available.

Juggler damage: 11d6 + 45 + 36d6. Average damage over four rounds: 209.5
Rogue damage: 8d6 + 20 + 36d6. Average damage over four rounds 174

So it looks like Flurry of Steel comes out ahead in the long run by about 35 damage. The Thief archetype gives a second turn the first round of combat at the same level, though, which is worth 43.5 average damage once per combat (two attacks with light weapons + Dex on main hand and one sneak attack). Since most combats will end before the juggler gets to have a second 6-item Flurry of Steel in the same combat, I think I'm going to leave it as is.

Phhase
2020-03-26, 05:14 PM
Basically as long as your hands are free whenever it isn't your turn, you can keep juggling. You're a professional, juggling laying down or while being dragged around by the scruff of your shirt is hard but not beyond you. I'll rewrite the language to be more clear.

I getcha, but I was thinking about a case where you get knocked back - items in the air don't inherit your momentum and are left behind. Might be too physics-y but it's up to you.


Though I guess I could do that but just leave the sneak attack clause in.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was getting at.

Appending to previous feedback:


Swiss Army Warlock, eh? This should be interesting. The base mechanics seem fine, so I'll break this down by Vestige, for the most part. Are you going to add Pact Boons?

Vestigial Invocation: Just to be clear, this means that each bound vestige grants you a bonus Invocation, right?

The Prisoner: Seems ok. Does Chains of the Prisoner require a reaction, or is it effectively a free action? For that matter, apply that question to all of the vestige powers.

The Ascendant: It's ok. Who's Karsus?

The Abdicant: I regret to inform you that Diplomacy is not a formal skill in 5e. Persuasion works, though. The power is "Twinspell - Self only". Works, I guess. To be clear, the spell must be one that can ONLY target you, not one that targets a single creature that happens to be you in the moment, right?

The Guardian: Oh boy, Reclamation could be huge, literally.

The Lost: Spelltheft/Reflection. Iiiiiinteresting.... Nice flavor too. Potentially great with Reclamation.

The Void: Neat. What's it look like?

The Shadow: Oh boy. That ability could be REALLY powerful. I've made a post once about niche applications of Nystul's Magic Aura, which requires a willing target. This could really kick it up a notch...Wait! If you can cast a spell that brings the dead back to life, could you bring them back against their will!? That would be insane!

The Paradox: Interesting. Especially because Counterspells that enemies use are NOT refunded. Are you refunded material components too?

The Indebted: Interesting spin on Blood Prices for spells. Would Paradox Rewind undo the max hp reduction too?

The Question: There is some extreme potential here. Especially if you combine it with something that lets you cast spells remotely, and/or Distant Spell metamagic. I just need to mull it over for a while...

Honestly, I was unimpressed at first, but now that I'm done, I think it's really quite good. If you're worried about it being Multiclass bait, I contest that that's ok. I like the idea of Synergy Warlock. After all, that's kind of the flavor of the subclass in the first place, yeah? If you want to give it a little more individual identity, give each vestige a unique Invocation and/or Boon. That would cement the cool factor, for me anyway.

Damon_Tor
2020-03-26, 06:46 PM
Vestigial Invocation: Just to be clear, this means that each bound vestige grants you a bonus Invocation, right?
You have one bonus invocation "slot" which is an invocation known by any one of your currently bound vestiges. You don't have one for each vestige. It had been that way in an earlier draft, but I changed it due to balance concerns.

The Prisoner: Seems ok. Does Chains of the Prisoner require a reaction, or is it effectively a free action? For that matter, apply that question to all of the vestige powers.[/quote]
They don't require reactions: they're meant to be flavored as augmentations to an existing spell, sort of souped-up limited-use metamagic. This particular one developed into it's own sort of pseudospell as I wrote the class, but the original concept was that the chains augment another control spell and make it harder to escape.


The Ascendant: It's ok. Who's Karsus?
He's the reason spells stop at ninth level in Forgotten Realms lore. In short: thousands of years ago powerful wizards used tenth and eleventh level spells to make things like spaceships and floating cities and all kinds of crazy stuff. Then this one guy Karsus decided to invent a twelfth level spell to make himself into a new God of Magic. Instead he wound up turning off magic for a while, all those floating cities the other wizards had worked so hard on crashed, and he was unmade in the process. By the time the universe got around to issuing a new God of Magic to get things back up and running, everyone decided that super-crazy magic wasn't a very good idea and the new God put a hard limit of 9th level on everything.

3.5's binder class and the 4e vestige pact warlock both had Karsus as a vestige that could be used. It seemed like an important inclusion, even if he isn't actually explicitly named.


The Abdicant: I regret to inform you that Diplomacy is not a formal skill in 5e. Persuasion works, though.
Good catch, thanks, fixed.


The power is "Twinspell - Self only". Works, I guess. To be clear, the spell must be one that can ONLY target you, not one that targets a single creature that happens to be you in the moment, right?
No, the spell/ability has to "effect" you, not necessarily target you, so you could, for example, use it to Misty Step your fighter to a better location. And you do not need to be the only creature effected, nor is the range of "self" a requirement. And the chosen creature (who must not be effected by the spell under other circumstances) is effected instead of you and is treated as if it cast the spell itself, which means you are not actually effected at all. This means you could do something like drop a fireball ontop of yourself and some bad guys, use The Shadow's power to make a creature outside the AoE "willing" and then assign him as your "champion" which means (a) you take no damage and (b) the champion does. It also makes the champion considered the source of the damage, so for example it wouldn't break a charm effect you've placed on the other targets.

These abilities are deliberately designed with broad applications to allow for exactly these sorts of shenanigans.


The Guardian: Oh boy, Reclamation could be huge, literally.

The Lost: Spelltheft/Reflection. Iiiiiinteresting.... Nice flavor too. Potentially great with Reclamation.
Yes, the fact that creates a new spell for which you are the caster allows for a number of interesting combos with the other powers. Again, this is deliberate.


The Void: Neat. What's it look like?
I left out explicit "fluff" descriptions for the same reason I left out names. I imagine it would like the black hole from Interstellar, something that warps reality and fills you with a strong sense of "this should not be". Other people might picture it as purple fire or liquid metal or the elemental plane of cotton candy.


The Shadow: Oh boy. That ability could be REALLY powerful. I've made a post once about niche applications of Nystul's Magic Aura, which requires a willing target. This could really kick it up a notch...Wait! If you can cast a spell that brings the dead back to life, could you bring them back against their will!? That would be insane!
It has to be a creature that can see and hear you. It's debatable whether dead creatures are still "creatures" as a defined game term, but they can't usually see or hear while dead, so it's probably a moot point.


The Paradox: Interesting. Especially because Counterspells that enemies use are NOT refunded. Are you refunded material components too?
I would read it as "yes" because "the spell has no effect" would seem to include the consumption of material components. I changed this to make it clearer.


The Indebted: Interesting spin on Blood Prices for spells. Would Paradox Rewind undo the max hp reduction too?
Yes.


The Question: There is some extreme potential here. Especially if you combine it with something that lets you cast spells remotely, and/or Distant Spell metamagic. I just need to mull it over for a while...
I saw this as more of a situational vestige than a "core" or "combo" vestige: real important when you need it, but you won't need it that often. Being unseen is a powerful counter for spellcasters, so a vestige that could help with that problem seemed like a good idea. I also wanted something for my "detective" warlocks. It's a weird niche that warlocks are oddly adept at given how many of their spells and invocations seemed oriented toward the concept, so this guy has out-of-combat potential that might not set off too many min-max alarms.

That said, I'm interested to hear if you can come up with anything fun. I think there's potential with taking a huge AoE spell, making it even bigger with Guardian's Reclamation, then making it ignore cover with the Answer. Blast a section of a dungeon with a Circle of Death with a 120 foot radius, watch it clear out mooks with little trouble before they even get line of sight on you.


Honestly, I was unimpressed at first, but now that I'm done, I think it's really quite good. If you're worried about it being Multiclass bait, I contest that that's ok. I like the idea of Synergy Warlock. After all, that's kind of the flavor of the subclass in the first place, yeah? If you want to give it a little more individual identity, give each vestige a unique Invocation and/or Boon. That would cement the cool factor, for me anyway.

Thanks for the feedback. I'm on the fence about how frontloaded it is, but I'm glad to hear you think it's good as is.

Lvl45DM!
2020-03-26, 11:39 PM
Disregard.

Phhase
2020-03-27, 03:00 PM
(post)

Wrong thread. This is the Chat Thread, where we talk about the entries. Post it in the other thread, the contest one. Good to see a new face, though!

Lvl45DM!
2020-03-27, 08:27 PM
Wrong thread. This is the Chat Thread, where we talk about the entries. Post it in the other thread, the contest one. Good to see a new face, though!

ah.
oops.
how embarrasing.
Yeah well lockdown is giving me more free time i guess, so filling it with DnD :smallbiggrin:

AdAstra
2020-03-27, 08:27 PM
Being able to have 4 CR1 beasts or monstrosities at your beck and call by level 4, revivable with a short rest, with no concentration, is miles better than any other minionmancy in the game other than perhaps higher level Animate Dead shenanigans. So it's an even more bonkers version of a mechanic that's already very powerful in 5e. As cool as it is to be walking around with 4 robotic Brown Bears, it's not balanced by any stretch of the word. The gold cost is significant, but really isn't a good balancing mechanism due to how DM and campaign-dependent gold acquisition is (It's also not clear whether you get your first machines for free or if you have to build them).

-Selfless giving shield proficiency is irrelevant since Artificers are already proficient with shields.
-Lead from the front gives you extremely reliable advantage on a great deal of creatures (assuming you use Large machines and build for melee). Combo with multiclassing for a crazy strong dip.

For the Shotput ability, does it add any ability modifier to damage, or is it just straight 2d8/4d8? Can't really judge the subclass as a whole until it's done
I like all the options, especially granting some of the less-used invocations. It's a nice way of getting some use out of rarely-seen existing content. It does feel like the subclass starts to falter in the higher levels though. Not much is really added on other than more vestiges (and of course the invocations, so despite the power level increasing it ends up feeling kinda barren.
Interesting mechanics, neat theme, and seems pretty balanced! I like it
I like the three fates reference (assuming it was intentional)! The wording of the Threadcutter's fear ability seems a little odd. If you were to cast a fireball, would every non-fire-immune creature in the radius count as "affected", since the spell does half damage on a successful save?
Overall, feels neat but very unbalanced

Tenets- The two tenets seem, kinda oddly in conflict? The only way to really learn about the planes is to visit them, talk to people who have, or talk to people from those planes who have traveled to yours (barring some exceptions like Contact Other Plane), which kinda violates the idea that everyone should stick to their own plane.

Spells- Seem fine balance-wise, though once again, it does feel dissonant with the second tenet to have spells like Summon Greater Demon and Planar Binding, both of which involve forcing entities from other planes to do things for you, typically not on their home plane.

Channel Divinity- This cool, but also way too strong because it never goes away. You're permanently doing extra damage, or imposing disadvantage with a reaction, or gaining free THP. If it lasted a minute or 10, this would be an excellent CD. As is, it's pretty solidly broken.

Planar Aura- The Astral Aura is basically the Conquest Paladin's 15th level ability, but applied to every attack within 10 feet rather than just attacks that hit you. That's, again, preposterously strong. The other Auras are also extremely powerful whenever they're relevant

Empowered Channel Divinity- You get the choice between the ability to basically lock down an attack-based character every turn, 1d4+10 THP at the start of every turn, or 1d4+5 extra damage on every melee weapon attack, which goes on top of things like Improved Divine Smite. This manages to make a broken ability even more so.

Planar Warrior- Seems fine? Resistance to all damage seems excessive, when compared to what other oaths get. It would probably stand out as very strong if the subclass wasn't packed with even stronger abilities
Fun ways to customize things, especially with spellcasting added on. The lack of any gameplay effect of your animal choice at until level 6 feels a little odd, but the subclasss is already very strong as-is, so it's hard to justify more

nickl_2000
2020-03-28, 11:40 AM
Overall, feels neat but very unbalanced

Tenets- The two tenets seem, kinda oddly in conflict? The only way to really learn about the planes is to visit them, talk to people who have, or talk to people from those planes who have traveled to yours (barring some exceptions like Contact Other Plane), which kinda violates the idea that everyone should stick to their own plane.

Spells- Seem fine balance-wise, though once again, it does feel dissonant with the second tenet to have spells like Summon Greater Demon and Planar Binding, both of which involve forcing entities from other planes to do things for you, typically not on their home plane.

Channel Divinity- This cool, but also way too strong because it never goes away. You're permanently doing extra damage, or imposing disadvantage with a reaction, or gaining free THP. If it lasted a minute or 10, this would be an excellent CD. As is, it's pretty solidly broken.

Planar Aura- The Astral Aura is basically the Conquest Paladin's 15th level ability, but applied to every attack within 10 feet rather than just attacks that hit you. That's, again, preposterously strong. The other Auras are also extremely powerful whenever they're relevant

Empowered Channel Divinity- You get the choice between the ability to basically lock down an attack-based character every turn, 1d4+10 THP at the start of every turn, or 1d4+5 extra damage on every melee weapon attack, which goes on top of things like Improved Divine Smite. This manages to make a broken ability even more so.

Planar Warrior- Seems fine? Resistance to all damage seems excessive, when compared to what other oaths get. It would probably stand out as very strong if the subclass wasn't packed with even stronger abilities


Thanks for the honest review. The channel divinity does say this
"Depending on your choice of planes you align with, you gain the following bonus for the next minute as well as different abilities later on."





I did clarify this ability some.

-Modified the second tenant to make more sense with the spells and the other things that are going on.
-Make it clear the the Channel divinity is only for 1 minute, and the Empowered Channel Divinity is also only active during that same minute.
-Modified to the Plane of Life for positive energy (another name for positive energy plane)
-Reduced some abilities
-Changed the Abyss and Mount Celestia abilities to be unique
-Neutered the auras some
-I left planar warrior alone because it's a capstone and those are supposed to be godlike, and Paladins are even more so. Given the other nerfs I added in, I don't think it is to bad to have full resistances to damage. Also, the any type damage is very fitting, and it is only for 1 minute per day and only on smites. I personally think it is fine as is :)

AdAstra
2020-03-28, 06:30 PM
Thanks for the honest review. The channel divinity does say this
"Depending on your choice of planes you align with, you gain the following bonus for the next minute as well as different abilities later on."





I did clarify this ability some.

-Modified the second tenant to make more sense with the spells and the other things that are going on.
-Make it clear the the Channel divinity is only for 1 minute, and the Empowered Channel Divinity is also only active during that same minute.
-Modified to the Plane of Life for positive energy (another name for positive energy plane)
-Reduced some abilities
-Changed the Abyss and Mount Celestia abilities to be unique
-Neutered the auras some
-I left planar warrior alone because it's a capstone and those are supposed to be godlike, and Paladins are even more so. Given the other nerfs I added in, I don't think it is to bad to have full resistances to damage. Also, the any type damage is very fitting, and it is only for 1 minute per day and only on smites. I personally think it is fine as is :)

Seems good! It's a good theme. There are some weird wordings though, like the Abyss channeling dealing fire damage to the "target". Which, given that it's activated by being hit by a melee attack, implies the "target" is you. Something like "the attacker" is probably more clear. The Astral aura also still comes off as a little weird, since no-save permanent damage auras, even weak ones, come off as potentially balance-breaking. Perhaps an Intelligence save? Those are usually weak on most creatures, while still giving a chance to avoid the damage.

mk333
2020-03-29, 05:48 AM
Way of the Burning Heart

<SNIP - lots of good feedback>

Thanks! I took your suggestions and did some minor updates, like allowing you to fight back when you take psychic damage, and updating some of the wording.

nickl_2000
2020-03-29, 07:17 AM
Seems good! It's a good theme. There are some weird wordings though, like the Abyss channeling dealing fire damage to the "target". Which, given that it's activated by being hit by a melee attack, implies the "target" is you. Something like "the attacker" is probably more clear. The Astral aura also still comes off as a little weird, since no-save permanent damage auras, even weak ones, come off as potentially balance-breaking. Perhaps an Intelligence save? Those are usually weak on most creatures, while still giving a chance to avoid the damage.

Thanks, those are either artifacts of changing to new abilities or from lack of sleep. I will get it cleaned up today

MoleMage
2020-03-29, 04:41 PM
Time for feedback!


So I guess I really need to get the Eberron book so I have the most up-to-date version of artificer. I'll do my best.


Instead of specifically excluding monstrosities with certain special abilities, why not say the machine cannot inherit those abilities? If someone wants a basilisk robot they can have it that way.
Machina Rex's abilities follow a clear order from best to worst in my mind (Lead From the Front > Selfless >>> Iron Inertia). Might split Lead From the Front into two options (the combat option for armor and weapon and an option for mounted combat).
The Infusions have a lot of options, which is good. I'm not sure how powerful artificer infusions are supposed to be, so I can't measure their power level here, but the wording is at least clear on all of them.
Relentless Steel looks okay to me.
Amber Shield: I don't see why this needs to require your highest spell slot when it uses spell slot level in its calculation. By the time you get it, a 1st level spell slot isn't going to cut it (since most everything will do more than 15 damage per attack on average anyway) but may still be worth using.



I think you have an interesting class here, but it looks like it derives a lot of power and I'm worried about the fact that it can pretty easily have 3 or 4 minions right out the gate and hit 5 by level 8, each with its own initiative, HP. It's going to bog down combat and the initiative system already has a slight bias towards larger groups.



Doubling down on the theme here, I like it.


An interesting way to handle oath spells. I don't see a lot of cohesion to the theme in the actual spells offered (especially Speak with Animals, Misty Step, Beacon of Hope). A lot of the rest seem to have the theme of "this spell can be used in two or more different ways", which fits the contest theme but not really the class theme. More choices like Freedom of Movement or Dispel Evil and Good that empower a creature to make their own choices would be better.
Aura of Liberty III is really really nice. One of the biggest limits on nova damage is how frequently you can use Smite; this effectively increases that number by 50%. Plus, you can pair up with a higher-crit-chance class (like Champion Fighter) to crit-fish more efficiently.
Invincible Idea: I know from experience that it is hard to fit a paladin transformation in without strong overlap with other paladin transformations, but this is an appropriate choice.


It breaks with the normal structure of a paladin subclass, but it does so in a deliberate and interesting way. I think it's pretty good, but the oath spells could have a clearer connection to the theme in my opinion.



Some formatting, even if it is just bold for feature names and events in bullet points, would make this stand out better.


New events are the only thing the fighter gets between 3 and 18? Since many of the events are mutually exclusive to use at the same time (such as the Javelin/Shot Put/Discus/Hammer Toss), and others are highly situational (Charioteer will never be used indoors), this means that eventually the fighter is getting no benefit from their class. Also, the total number of events learned is 10, while only 12 are offered. I recommend reducing the number of events learned to one at each stage after 3rd and giving 7, 10, and 15 their own unique features.
Shot put: 30/80 is not a standard weapon range (ones used in the PHB: 20/60, 25/100, 30/120, 80/320, 100/400, 150/600. Note that all except 20/60 have a long range equal to four times their short range). The cantrip-style progression is a little odd, but I think it works.
Hammer Toss: the range is, in addition to being nonstandard, a little outrageous. That's basically the equivalent range of a light crossbow or shortbow. Plus, 300 feet is higher than the current hammer toss world record (where accuracy other than "roughly forward" is not an essential factor.
Discus: I like this one, but once again the range is odd.
Javelin: This is probably the most straightforward one of the weapon events; it doesn't add a new option, just improves an old one. I think it's fine though.
Hurdles, sprinting, wrestling: Exactly what they should be for the event.
Marathon needs to specify what the Con save DC is. While some effects will have one already others (like forced march) are automatic. I recommend a "DC of XX or the effect's DC, whichever is higher." so that very powerful outside effects are still harder to resist.
Long Jump and High Jump: They're different events, but in terms of mechanics they're pretty weak separated out like that.
Pole Vault: Pole vaulters can clear distances a fair bit longer than their poles, and besides plenty of staves and polearms don't have reach in 5e. Also, as a mechanic it steps on the toes of both jump events.
Decathlete: As a capstone it could be a lot stronger. Exhaustion effects are so rare that a lot of tables might never see them, swim speed is very situational. The advantage on saves and athletics are great, and the hour duration means you can probably get it for more than one fight, but something flashier would be nice. A one-hour duration is also very long for a short rest feature.


It's a good concept and the events mostly look fun, but some are clearly superior to others, and many are clearly not meant to be taken together.



Ah yes, the Binder, that wondrously weird class that I never bothered to learn the mechanics of. Fitting it to warlock seems very appropriate.


Binding: You had asked if moving Vestige Powers to level 6 seemed like a good idea and I think it might be. Swappable Spells known and skill proficiencies is probably enough to get by with at level 1.
The current mechanics for vestige spells and vestigial invocation are sufficiently tightly written to not be overpowered, in my opinion.
Your wording on each individual Vestige Power is fairly tight. You have a couple where you use effect instead of affect, but that's just proofreading. The actual effects are all unique and appropriate as well. I'm really impressed by this.


I could break down each vestige, but honestly I think it's really solid as it currently is, other than maybe moving access to vestige powers to level 6. Very impressive subclass.



Surprisingly, in 13 contests we haven't seen an OotS inspired entry yet.


Magical Boon: I would make Magical Boon more akin to Mystic Arcanum where you get the ability to cast your chosen spell once and regain the ability to do so on a long rest, rather than tied into the warlock's original spell slots. I tried something similar with Ki Points a while back and it doesn't work as well as it seems like it should.
Forbidden Knowledge: Interesting, but possibly exploitable. I recommend taking away the ability to use this for initiative.
Fiendish Focus: This heavily favors Pact of the Blade, but none of the previous features suggest that pact will be important to this subclass. Since Pacts cannot be changed out once chosen, this could lead to IFCC warlocks being unable to effectively use one of their best features.
Soul Splice: Needs to show a level for when it's gained (I assume 14).



Overall, it offers a lot of power (basically a warlock equivalent of magical secrets that can be changed out every short rest, which is crazy), but is not as evocative as it could be. I'd like to see it with more connection to the three directors and less open-ended.



You've given your subclass more subclasses! It's like Totem Warrior all over again!


Paths of Thread: Charisma mod per long rest is a lot of uses for the features described here. I'd leave it at one or two static uses, possibly gaining an extra use down the line somewhere. All of the features themselves are good though.
Paths Unwound (Threadweaver): The sorcery points recouped should be based on the relative spell level. As it stands, there's no difference between using a 2nd level burning hands to trigger this (gaining 4-6 sorcery points depending on level) or using a 3rd level. Tying it to spell level difference also means you can avoid creating an infinite feedback loop (a 2nd level slot only requires 3 sorcery points, gaining 4 points from a 2nd level upcast means you can effectively gain 1 sorcery point per round, or enough excess sorcery points for a 5th level spell slot every 54 seconds.
Followed or Formed: The condition for which thing you get is just great.
Thread of Destiny: Unless I have some special temporary bonus to Dexterity saving throws, I can't see myself using this. Even if I maxed dexterity, that's only a +5 bonus, meaning that I only have a 50% chance of increasing the DC of a 1st level spell by 5. To increase the DC of a 9th level spell by 1, I'd have a 30% chance. If the spell went off normally without the bonus on a failure it would be a lot more usable.
Fate Breaker: We looked it up a few contests back and there are not as many spell attack roll spells as it seems like there should be in the higher levels. Even ones that shoot a ray are usually a saving throw after 4th level or so. Upcasting is still a possibility though so I think it would see a lot of use.


It's a good subclass, and other than what I noted above, the choices all seem equivalent and overall appropriate for the level they're gained at.



For such an integral part of the metaphysics of D&D you'd think there'd be more options for planar characters in core.


The tenets and spells seem fine. There's a formatting error in the second tenet as of right now.
Channel divinity: So you have effectively five channel divinity options, but choosing one also changes your other features down the line? I like the idea, but 5 seems like a lot of choices for a class that normally gets 2.
Planar Aura (Astral): This can add up to a lot of reliable damage for an always-on ability.
Planar Aura (Abyss): Can you only redirect from one creature or from all affected creatures?



Why those five planes specifically? Two are outer planes, one's a transitive plane, one's an inner plane, and assuming the plane of life is the positive plane, it's...I'm not even sure anymore what they classify it as honestly.



I've not seen a third-casting Druid Monk suggested before, even when we had a whole contest about borrowing other classes' features.


Primal Weapon: what is the versatile damage die of the quarterstaff? 1d10?
Natural Connection: The wording could be clearer. A rule of thumb: if you're adding extra things to an ability which costs resources, note the additional cost rather than the total cost. In this case, assuming I understand your intent: "When you use your Flurry of Blows ability, you can spend 1 additional ki point to use a druid cantrip you know in place of one of the unarmed attacks."
Wild Style (Fox II) is a little confusingly worded.
Primal Form (Snake) grants resistance to poison and the poisoned condition, but Purity of Body already did that in the baseline monk one level earlier (immunity to both, actually).
Feyral Form: Should be a minute, as it most resembles a Paladin transformation ability.


An interesting take on a more primal monk.



I should replay the Diablo trilogy...


Tainted Ki: What about later ki-spending features? Do you also get extra benefit from Deflect Missiles, or Empty Body? Do those still cost HP?
Haunted Dreams: This is rough. At level 3 a Burning Heart monk has more penalties than benefits, really. I would remove this as a mechanical effect and put it with Demonic Mark as a narrative ability.
Freed on Death should be a 6th level feature, since that's when it starts to actually do something. You can put the description of what the demon looks like escaping before that in Demonic Mark.
Tormented Fury has the potential to be incredibly strong, especially combined with the ability of monks to make so many attacks or to Dodge as a bonus action.
Final Confrontation is a great capstone for the theme of this class.



Overall, I think the class's tradeoffs are too extreme.In practice I worry that either the player will find a way to ignore the penalties in a practical sense (thus becoming too powerful in comparison to the rest of the party) or the penalties will be too much of a burden and render the play of this class unfun.




I tried to do a slasher as a base class a couple years ago. I may revisit my notes based on your stuff here at some point.


Birth of Horror(Hulking Stalker): Hard to mechanically enforce. How many things do you have to be hidden from? Just one? All that could see you? Can you use Cause Fear on a target that was aware of your position while hidden or just one that you've suprised?
Implement of Carnage (Killer of Killers): Eldritch Blast is not strong enough to need to be limited per long rest. This is probably one of the weakest options even if it wasn't limited since you can't sneak attack with it or even add an ability bonus to it, unlike all of the others.
The Reckoning: All of the options are too powerful except Killer of Killers, but Hulking Stalker's resist all physical and The Shape's no limit on sneak attack each round are especially too strong. And for New Nightmare, 7th level spells normally are limited to 1 per long rest (the sole exception of which I'm aware is Monk's Empty body feature at level 18, where the spell instead receives restrictions).
Reboot: There's no limit on use, which means you are functionally invincible.


Some comments that apply to all of the entries:

Choose one attibute to govern the subclass's features, or at least for each villain. For example right now, you have Blood Soaked using Int, Dex, and "highest mental stat". Pick one thing and stick with it across all features.
Everything in Birth of Horror gets a different way to access Cause Fear. This makes a lot of distinct ablities boil down to one spell. Give the class a second feature at level 3 that lets them cast Cause Fear X times per long rest, and build out the individual abilities of the Birth of Horror options.
Compare abilities you pick not just to other rogue abilities but to abilities from other classes. Want to give someone resistance? How do barbarians use it? Not sure how strong an extra saving throw is? Compare Monk.
In 5e, limitations per round are just as important as limitations per rest. If you're going to let someone do more in a round than they could normally, be careful. This goes double if you're letting them do something for no action instead of using their bonus action, especially for classes that rely on bonus action availability like Rogue or Monk.


It's a good theme, and you've got the chassis in place and that looks good too. Just needs some balancing tweaks.

BerzerkerUnit
2020-03-29, 07:56 PM
Some , even if it is just bold for feature names and events in bullet points, would make this stand out better.


New events are the only thing the fighter gets between 3 and 18? Since many of the events are mutually exclusive to use at the same time (such as the Javelin/Shot Put/Discus/Hammer Toss), and others are highly situational (Charioteer will never be used indoors), this means that eventually the fighter is getting no benefit from their class. Also, the total number of events learned is 10, while only 12 are offered. I recommend reducing the number of events learned to one at each stage after 3rd and giving 7, 10, and 15 their own unique features.
Shot put: 30/80 is not a standard weapon range (ones used in the PHB: 20/60, 25/100, 30/120, 80/320, 100/400, 150/600. Note that all except 20/60 have a long range equal to four times their short range). The cantrip-style progression is a little odd, but I think it works.
Hammer Toss: the range is, in addition to being nonstandard, a little outrageous. That's basically the equivalent range of a light crossbow or shortbow. Plus, 300 feet is higher than the current hammer toss world record (where accuracy other than "roughly forward" is not an essential factor.
Discus: I like this one, but once again the range is odd.
Javelin: This is probably the most straightforward one of the weapon events; it doesn't add a new option, just improves an old one. I think it's fine though.
Hurdles, sprinting, wrestling: Exactly what they should be for the event.
Marathon needs to specify what the Con save DC is. While some effects will have one already others (like forced march) are automatic. I recommend a "DC of XX or the effect's DC, whichever is higher." so that very powerful outside effects are still harder to resist.
Long Jump and High Jump: They're different events, but in terms of mechanics they're pretty weak separated out like that.
Pole Vault: Pole vaulters can clear distances a fair bit longer than their poles, and besides plenty of staves and polearms don't have reach in 5e. Also, as a mechanic it steps on the toes of both jump events.
Decathlete: As a capstone it could be a lot stronger. Exhaustion effects are so rare that a lot of tables might never see them, swim speed is very situational. The advantage on saves and athletics are great, and the hour duration means you can probably get it for more than one fight, but something flashier would be nice. A one-hour duration is also very long for a short rest feature.


It's a good concept and the events mostly look fun, but some are clearly superior to others, and many are clearly not meant to be taken together.


Thanks so much for the feedback.

Not sure which iteration you were looking at. Since you didnít mention Discus it probably wasnít the latest.

General response: youíd have to pretty deliberately choose events so there were regular situations where you got no benefit from the subclass, itís expected youíll choose the ones that directly benefit your build focus first. If youíre a polearm fighter, taking pole vault at 3 means youíre looking at a benefit all the time. Further, expertise on Athletics is always on and useful for shoves, trips, and grapples. Same for sprint or the jumps, theyíre just permanent upgrades. Some events are stronger than others but itís very dependent on build focus.

Reducing choices runs contrary to the theme of the class as designed. Some of the events are a means to enhance exploration options, so while youíre likely to acquire all the combat options by 18th (enhancing versatility rather than raw power), it also presents the option of choosing ďthe bestĒ choices and them MCing out. Like just taking Grappling and the jumps to make a Randy Savage Barbarian MC is something, etc. thatís how I interpreted choice for this exercise.

Ranges for Hammer Toss etc were based on actual Olympic records for distances thrown. I figured since fantasy characters are supposed to be heroic those should be the norm.

Shotput is a thrown attack so it should add the stat bonus. Iíll try and add some clarification.

A few events had already gotten an update, polevault among them, pls check them out.

Good heads up about Marathon. Iíll add a DC.

There are 12 events and by design you can ignore a couple based on campaign or build. A polearm Master definitely wants the pole vault and then doesnít particularly need the jumps, but taking all three creates pretty spectacular jumps if you want.
A sword and board fighter has no need for pole vault or Charioteering since both hands will be occupied.

Decathalete- persistent advantage on saves and ability checks is strong and the duration and short rest make this a very reliable ability. I think itís fine as is (until i donít, then I might change it if I have a better idea).

Thanks again!

Lvl45DM!
2020-03-29, 10:24 PM
Time for feedback!



I tried to do a slasher as a base class a couple years ago. I may revisit my notes based on your stuff here at some point.


Birth of Horror(Hulking Stalker): Hard to mechanically enforce. How many things do you have to be hidden from? Just one? All that could see you? Can you use Cause Fear on a target that was aware of your position while hidden or just one that you've suprised?
Implement of Carnage (Killer of Killers): Eldritch Blast is not strong enough to need to be limited per long rest. This is probably one of the weakest options even if it wasn't limited since you can't sneak attack with it or even add an ability bonus to it, unlike all of the others.
The Reckoning: All of the options are too powerful except Killer of Killers, but Hulking Stalker's resist all physical and The Shape's no limit on sneak attack each round are especially too strong. And for New Nightmare, 7th level spells normally are limited to 1 per long rest (the sole exception of which I'm aware is Monk's Empty body feature at level 18, where the spell instead receives restrictions).
Reboot: There's no limit on use, which means you are functionally invincible.


Some comments that apply to all of the entries:

Choose one attibute to govern the subclass's features, or at least for each villain. For example right now, you have Blood Soaked using Int, Dex, and "highest mental stat". Pick one thing and stick with it across all features.
Everything in Birth of Horror gets a different way to access Cause Fear. This makes a lot of distinct ablities boil down to one spell. Give the class a second feature at level 3 that lets them cast Cause Fear X times per long rest, and build out the individual abilities of the Birth of Horror options.
Compare abilities you pick not just to other rogue abilities but to abilities from other classes. Want to give someone resistance? How do barbarians use it? Not sure how strong an extra saving throw is? Compare Monk.
In 5e, limitations per round are just as important as limitations per rest. If you're going to let someone do more in a round than they could normally, be careful. This goes double if you're letting them do something for no action instead of using their bonus action, especially for classes that rely on bonus action availability like Rogue or Monk.


It's a good theme, and you've got the chassis in place and that looks good too. Just needs some balancing tweaks.


Thanks. Super helpful! Like, really really helpful.

I fiddled with all the 3rd level abilities. Went for a more consistent mechanic of Cause Fear, 1 spell and one extra little bonus.
Weakened all the Reckoning ablities.

Fixed that Highest mental stat thing. That was the idea of not forcing High Int Rogues to be a Bloodsoaked at every level, but whatever.
Long rest for Reboot. Like, obviously its long rest, stupid of me not to say that. Also added a level of exhaustion to it, since its about as strong as lvl 20 abilities. I wanted a capstone so I mightve gone a little overboard.
Tried to make every ability use an action, without just cutting into a rogues bonus actions.

Boomstick is now an area of effect attack that knocks people prone, which is good for rogues. I made it focused around Use an Object, so a rogue can use their Cunning Action to reload it. So they can shoot every round but at the cost of being sneaky clever rogue. So they can move to range, shoot, knock the guy down, stab them with an offhand weapon. Then next round, reload and shoot and move. The damage is equal to fireball but in a small area, and easily resistable since shotguns rarely actually score the kill on slasher monsters.

Added a new killer. The Creeper.
Jeepers Creepers, where'd you get those peepers,

SleeplessWriter
2020-03-30, 03:44 AM
Alright, Gravesinger bard is up. I don't have the tales yet, or a statblock for the Spectral Singers, but other than that I feel pretty good about this one. I mainly want to have this class focus on having some eclectic utility options, with a few good defensive or buff abilities thrown in. The choir I think will be able to be played in one of several ways depending on which tales you have; as an in-your-face army that blocks enemy movement to defend the backline, or as a backline themselves that can buff the party or hinder your opponents from afar. One thing I think might be a good idea is to make them stronger the more that are right next to each other, that way you have to weigh the risks of them getting caught in an AoE versus the benefits of keeping them together.

Feel free to chime in with ideas for the tales, so far I'm thinking I'll have The Jack, The Lover, The Knight Errant, The Performer, and The Betrayed. Might add a few more

Damon_Tor
2020-03-30, 09:36 PM
I would have given Killer of Killers a "chain sword" instead of a boomstick. That one line aside, I feel like it's both more iconic and a better fit for a rogue mechanically.

Lvl45DM!
2020-03-30, 11:08 PM
I would have given Killer of Killers a "chain sword" instead of a boomstick. That one line aside, I feel like it's both more iconic and a better fit for a rogue mechanically.

I fundamentally agree. But a) it makes the class more interesting to have a option thats not just "i stab em", b) a chain sword isnt worth it unless they lose their hand if we are going for the iconic angle and c) statting up a decent chainsaw is hard, chainsaws make alot of noise, its hard to justify that on a rogue.

But heres a pitch for Asheys chainsaw hand.

Killer of Killers: The corruption that forced you down this path has caused the loss of your hand. This crippling loss grants you disadvantage on all skill or ability checks requiring manual dexterity, including most uses of Thieves Tools. But your cunning and ingenuity has allowed you to replace it with a techno-magical Whirling Blade. Unlike other Implements of Carnage this weapon is permanently summoned. Normally this weapon acts as a +1 Longsword. However with a bonus action the Slasher can activate it. While activated this weapon acts as a +1 greatsword that can be wielded only using the stump of your former hand. It crits on a 19-20. The sheer power of this weapon overcomes resistance to slashing damage, but not immunity. However while activated, the noise and smoke this weapon creates give you disadvantage on any Hide checks and your position is known to all within 100ft. The Whirling Blade can only be active for 1 minute, and can be activated once per long rest.

Damon_Tor
2020-03-31, 07:14 AM
I fundamentally agree. But a) it makes the class more interesting to have a option thats not just "i stab em", b) a chain sword isnt worth it unless they lose their hand if we are going for the iconic angle and c) statting up a decent chainsaw is hard, chainsaws make alot of noise, its hard to justify that on a rogue.

But heres a pitch for Asheys chainsaw hand.

Killer of Killers: The corruption that forced you down this path has caused the loss of your hand. This crippling loss grants you disadvantage on all skill or ability checks requiring manual dexterity, including most uses of Thieves Tools. But your cunning and ingenuity has allowed you to replace it with a techno-magical Whirling Blade. Unlike other Implements of Carnage this weapon is permanently summoned. Normally this weapon acts as a +1 Longsword. However with a bonus action the Slasher can activate it. While activated this weapon acts as a +1 greatsword that can be wielded only using the stump of your former hand. It crits on a 19-20. The sheer power of this weapon overcomes resistance to slashing damage, but not immunity. However while activated, the noise and smoke this weapon creates give you disadvantage on any Hide checks and your position is known to all within 100ft. The Whirling Blade can only be active for 1 minute, and can be activated once per long rest.

It doesn't have to be for Ash I guess: the one-handed element isn't something we need in our lives. Maybe do Leatherface? I feel like not having a chainsaw is a disservice to the genre.

RickAsWritten
2020-03-31, 10:29 AM
I like the three fates reference (assuming it was intentional)! The wording of the Threadcutter's fear ability seems a little odd. If you were to cast a fireball, would every non-fire-immune creature in the radius count as "affected", since the spell does half damage on a successful save?


Thanks for the feedback. Definitely meant to be referential to the three fates.

The fear ability is meant to work on any creature that you do damage to. Even if they pass the save, they still get hurt and they learn just how skilled at snipping the threads of life a Threadcutter is.





You've given your subclass more subclasses! It's like Totem Warrior all over again!


Paths of Thread: Charisma mod per long rest is a lot of uses for the features described here. I'd leave it at one or two static uses, possibly gaining an extra use down the line somewhere. All of the features themselves are good though.
Paths Unwound (Threadweaver): The sorcery points recouped should be based on the relative spell level. As it stands, there's no difference between using a 2nd level burning hands to trigger this (gaining 4-6 sorcery points depending on level) or using a 3rd level. Tying it to spell level difference also means you can avoid creating an infinite feedback loop (a 2nd level slot only requires 3 sorcery points, gaining 4 points from a 2nd level upcast means you can effectively gain 1 sorcery point per round, or enough excess sorcery points for a 5th level spell slot every 54 seconds.
Followed or Formed: The condition for which thing you get is just great.
Thread of Destiny: Unless I have some special temporary bonus to Dexterity saving throws, I can't see myself using this. Even if I maxed dexterity, that's only a +5 bonus, meaning that I only have a 50% chance of increasing the DC of a 1st level spell by 5. To increase the DC of a 9th level spell by 1, I'd have a 30% chance. If the spell went off normally without the bonus on a failure it would be a lot more usable.
Fate Breaker: We looked it up a few contests back and there are not as many spell attack roll spells as it seems like there should be in the higher levels. Even ones that shoot a ray are usually a saving throw after 4th level or so. Upcasting is still a possibility though so I think it would see a lot of use.


It's a good subclass, and other than what I noted above, the choices all seem equivalent and overall appropriate for the level they're gained at.


Thanks for the feedback Mole. Going through the points:


It's a lot of uses, but all the other Sorcerer subclasses get two abilities at 1st level, so I think it's mostly justified. Because of the different options to choose from, I decided to do one stronger ability instead of two.
Good suggestion. Changing it now.
Thanks. I originally just had a single capstone, but felt that the choices should mean something. You see skill trees a lot in video games, but there aren't any in D&D (5e at least).
Another good suggestion. Revising.
I just went through them all and was super surprised by this. Due to how limited it is and how there is a spell slot cost baked-in to the ability, do you think I could get rid of the "once per rest" limit and just have it as an option for any spell that's cast? Or maybe Cha-mod uses per rest? Also I'm changing the name to Fate's Needle.

nickl_2000
2020-03-31, 10:44 AM
Time for feedback!

SNIP




Thanks for the feedback, I won't get changes in before the end of the contest but I will save them for the long term effects of the subclass.

To the question of why those planes, because when looking through they seemed the easiest to make abilities off of. Other than that there is no rhyme or reason to it.

Lvl45DM!
2020-03-31, 11:36 AM
It doesn't have to be for Ash I guess: the one-handed element isn't something we need in our lives. Maybe do Leatherface? I feel like not having a chainsaw is a disservice to the genre.

Funnily enough chainsaws are relatively rare. Its more of a meme. Anyway, I might just leave it. Maybe ill homebrew a magic item rather than make it a class feature

Damon_Tor
2020-03-31, 04:30 PM
It's hard to imagine a chainsaw would be viable for a rogue, both because of the noise and the weight.

Here's my crack at one:

Chainsword (greatsword)
A jagged chain runs along the length of this weapon, which roars into motion when activated. You cannot attack with this weapon while it isn't active. Activating this weapon requires an action. You can deactivate it as a bonus action, or it automatically deactivates if it isn't being held in two hands. While active, it generates a loud sound that can be heard from 100 feet away and deafens all creatures within 5 feet (including the wielder).

When you hit a creature with this weapon and deal damage, that creature becones mangled, and continues to be mangled as long as you don't miss it with an attack with your chainsword, attack another creature with your chainsword, or become further from the creature than 5 feet. You have advantage on attacking mangled creatures with your chainsword. While being mangled, that creature takes 1d6 extra damage for each time it has been hit by the chainsword since the mangling began.

So the first hit is 2d6, standard greatsword damage, and the mangling begins. The second hit is 3d6, the third is 4d6. If the mangling ends, whether that's because he gets away or because you miss an attack or do something else, it drops back down to 2d6.

Lvl45DM!
2020-03-31, 07:20 PM
It's hard to imagine a chainsaw would be viable for a rogue, both because of the noise and the weight.

Here's my crack at one:

Chainsword (greatsword)
A jagged chain runs along the length of this weapon, which roars into motion when activated. You cannot attack with this weapon while it isn't active. Activating this weapon requires an action. You can deactivate it as a bonus action, or it automatically deactivates if it isn't being held in two hands. While active, it generates a loud sound that can be heard from 100 feet away and deafens all creatures within 5 feet (including the wielder).

When you hit a creature with this weapon and deal damage, that creature becones mangled, and continues to be mangled as long as you don't miss it with an attack with your chainsword, attack another creature with your chainsword, or become further from the creature than 5 feet. You have advantage on attacking mangled creatures with your chainsword. While being mangled, that creature takes 1d6 extra damage for each time it has been hit by the chainsword since the mangling began.

So the first hit is 2d6, standard greatsword damage, and the mangling begins. The second hit is 3d6, the third is 4d6. If the mangling ends, whether that's because he gets away or because you miss an attack or do something else, it drops back down to 2d6.

Ooooh. That has a VERY slasher vibe. Though the 5 feet thing needs tweaking. If you end your turn more than 10 feet away from them feels better. So you can chase them. And since mangled gives advantage SA for days.

Paying advice forward. Take it with a grain of salt.

I salute your creativity good sir/madam!
Wild shape into one beast as a Pact seems like a perfect amount of flavour and utility for a warlock.
Skinwalker especially seems interestingly balanced though dependent on DM giving out gold to use, but thats no different from a Book of Ancient Secrets Warlock.
I think the biggest issue is that youre limited to Beasts or Monstrosities. A Fiendlock might want to end up as a...well...fiend. And Good Warlocks might struggle with having to skin monsters to achieve the higher tiers of power. So maybe Acolyte of the Skin would work if they could choose creature type, obviously restricted from oozes, constructs and maybe dragons/undead. And maybe an alternative to Skinwalker of receiving parts of a creature as a gift. Maybe i help the Pegasi out and it gives me a feather yknow? Something less...murdery.
And just clarifying. You can switch forms infinite times without rest yeah?

AdAstra
2020-04-01, 03:06 AM
Time for feedback!


So I guess I really need to get the Eberron book so I have the most up-to-date version of artificer. I'll do my best.


Instead of specifically excluding monstrosities with certain special abilities, why not say the machine cannot inherit those abilities? If someone wants a basilisk robot they can have it that way.
Machina Rex's abilities follow a clear order from best to worst in my mind (Lead From the Front > Selfless >>> Iron Inertia). Might split Lead From the Front into two options (the combat option for armor and weapon and an option for mounted combat).
The Infusions have a lot of options, which is good. I'm not sure how powerful artificer infusions are supposed to be, so I can't measure their power level here, but the wording is at least clear on all of them.
Relentless Steel looks okay to me.
Amber Shield: I don't see why this needs to require your highest spell slot when it uses spell slot level in its calculation. By the time you get it, a 1st level spell slot isn't going to cut it (since most everything will do more than 15 damage per attack on average anyway) but may still be worth using.



I think you have an interesting class here, but it looks like it derives a lot of power and I'm worried about the fact that it can pretty easily have 3 or 4 minions right out the gate and hit 5 by level 8, each with its own initiative, HP. It's going to bog down combat and the initiative system already has a slight bias towards larger groups.



Doubling down on the theme here, I like it.


An interesting way to handle oath spells. I don't see a lot of cohesion to the theme in the actual spells offered (especially Speak with Animals, Misty Step, Beacon of Hope). A lot of the rest seem to have the theme of "this spell can be used in two or more different ways", which fits the contest theme but not really the class theme. More choices like Freedom of Movement or Dispel Evil and Good that empower a creature to make their own choices would be better.
Aura of Liberty III is really really nice. One of the biggest limits on nova damage is how frequently you can use Smite; this effectively increases that number by 50%. Plus, you can pair up with a higher-crit-chance class (like Champion Fighter) to crit-fish more efficiently.
Invincible Idea: I know from experience that it is hard to fit a paladin transformation in without strong overlap with other paladin transformations, but this is an appropriate choice.


It breaks with the normal structure of a paladin subclass, but it does so in a deliberate and interesting way. I think it's pretty good, but the oath spells could have a clearer connection to the theme in my opinion.



Some formatting, even if it is just bold for feature names and events in bullet points, would make this stand out better.


New events are the only thing the fighter gets between 3 and 18? Since many of the events are mutually exclusive to use at the same time (such as the Javelin/Shot Put/Discus/Hammer Toss), and others are highly situational (Charioteer will never be used indoors), this means that eventually the fighter is getting no benefit from their class. Also, the total number of events learned is 10, while only 12 are offered. I recommend reducing the number of events learned to one at each stage after 3rd and giving 7, 10, and 15 their own unique features.
Shot put: 30/80 is not a standard weapon range (ones used in the PHB: 20/60, 25/100, 30/120, 80/320, 100/400, 150/600. Note that all except 20/60 have a long range equal to four times their short range). The cantrip-style progression is a little odd, but I think it works.
Hammer Toss: the range is, in addition to being nonstandard, a little outrageous. That's basically the equivalent range of a light crossbow or shortbow. Plus, 300 feet is higher than the current hammer toss world record (where accuracy other than "roughly forward" is not an essential factor.
Discus: I like this one, but once again the range is odd.
Javelin: This is probably the most straightforward one of the weapon events; it doesn't add a new option, just improves an old one. I think it's fine though.
Hurdles, sprinting, wrestling: Exactly what they should be for the event.
Marathon needs to specify what the Con save DC is. While some effects will have one already others (like forced march) are automatic. I recommend a "DC of XX or the effect's DC, whichever is higher." so that very powerful outside effects are still harder to resist.
Long Jump and High Jump: They're different events, but in terms of mechanics they're pretty weak separated out like that.
Pole Vault: Pole vaulters can clear distances a fair bit longer than their poles, and besides plenty of staves and polearms don't have reach in 5e. Also, as a mechanic it steps on the toes of both jump events.
Decathlete: As a capstone it could be a lot stronger. Exhaustion effects are so rare that a lot of tables might never see them, swim speed is very situational. The advantage on saves and athletics are great, and the hour duration means you can probably get it for more than one fight, but something flashier would be nice. A one-hour duration is also very long for a short rest feature.


It's a good concept and the events mostly look fun, but some are clearly superior to others, and many are clearly not meant to be taken together.



Ah yes, the Binder, that wondrously weird class that I never bothered to learn the mechanics of. Fitting it to warlock seems very appropriate.


Binding: You had asked if moving Vestige Powers to level 6 seemed like a good idea and I think it might be. Swappable Spells known and skill proficiencies is probably enough to get by with at level 1.
The current mechanics for vestige spells and vestigial invocation are sufficiently tightly written to not be overpowered, in my opinion.
Your wording on each individual Vestige Power is fairly tight. You have a couple where you use effect instead of affect, but that's just proofreading. The actual effects are all unique and appropriate as well. I'm really impressed by this.


I could break down each vestige, but honestly I think it's really solid as it currently is, other than maybe moving access to vestige powers to level 6. Very impressive subclass.



Surprisingly, in 13 contests we haven't seen an OotS inspired entry yet.


Magical Boon: I would make Magical Boon more akin to Mystic Arcanum where you get the ability to cast your chosen spell once and regain the ability to do so on a long rest, rather than tied into the warlock's original spell slots. I tried something similar with Ki Points a while back and it doesn't work as well as it seems like it should.
Forbidden Knowledge: Interesting, but possibly exploitable. I recommend taking away the ability to use this for initiative.
Fiendish Focus: This heavily favors Pact of the Blade, but none of the previous features suggest that pact will be important to this subclass. Since Pacts cannot be changed out once chosen, this could lead to IFCC warlocks being unable to effectively use one of their best features.
Soul Splice: Needs to show a level for when it's gained (I assume 14).



Overall, it offers a lot of power (basically a warlock equivalent of magical secrets that can be changed out every short rest, which is crazy), but is not as evocative as it could be. I'd like to see it with more connection to the three directors and less open-ended.



You've given your subclass more subclasses! It's like Totem Warrior all over again!


Paths of Thread: Charisma mod per long rest is a lot of uses for the features described here. I'd leave it at one or two static uses, possibly gaining an extra use down the line somewhere. All of the features themselves are good though.
Paths Unwound (Threadweaver): The sorcery points recouped should be based on the relative spell level. As it stands, there's no difference between using a 2nd level burning hands to trigger this (gaining 4-6 sorcery points depending on level) or using a 3rd level. Tying it to spell level difference also means you can avoid creating an infinite feedback loop (a 2nd level slot only requires 3 sorcery points, gaining 4 points from a 2nd level upcast means you can effectively gain 1 sorcery point per round, or enough excess sorcery points for a 5th level spell slot every 54 seconds.
Followed or Formed: The condition for which thing you get is just great.
Thread of Destiny: Unless I have some special temporary bonus to Dexterity saving throws, I can't see myself using this. Even if I maxed dexterity, that's only a +5 bonus, meaning that I only have a 50% chance of increasing the DC of a 1st level spell by 5. To increase the DC of a 9th level spell by 1, I'd have a 30% chance. If the spell went off normally without the bonus on a failure it would be a lot more usable.
Fate Breaker: We looked it up a few contests back and there are not as many spell attack roll spells as it seems like there should be in the higher levels. Even ones that shoot a ray are usually a saving throw after 4th level or so. Upcasting is still a possibility though so I think it would see a lot of use.


It's a good subclass, and other than what I noted above, the choices all seem equivalent and overall appropriate for the level they're gained at.



For such an integral part of the metaphysics of D&D you'd think there'd be more options for planar characters in core.


The tenets and spells seem fine. There's a formatting error in the second tenet as of right now.
Channel divinity: So you have effectively five channel divinity options, but choosing one also changes your other features down the line? I like the idea, but 5 seems like a lot of choices for a class that normally gets 2.
Planar Aura (Astral): This can add up to a lot of reliable damage for an always-on ability.
Planar Aura (Abyss): Can you only redirect from one creature or from all affected creatures?



Why those five planes specifically? Two are outer planes, one's a transitive plane, one's an inner plane, and assuming the plane of life is the positive plane, it's...I'm not even sure anymore what they classify it as honestly.



I've not seen a third-casting Druid Monk suggested before, even when we had a whole contest about borrowing other classes' features.


Primal Weapon: what is the versatile damage die of the quarterstaff? 1d10?
Natural Connection: The wording could be clearer. A rule of thumb: if you're adding extra things to an ability which costs resources, note the additional cost rather than the total cost. In this case, assuming I understand your intent: "When you use your Flurry of Blows ability, you can spend 1 additional ki point to use a druid cantrip you know in place of one of the unarmed attacks."
Wild Style (Fox II) is a little confusingly worded.
Primal Form (Snake) grants resistance to poison and the poisoned condition, but Purity of Body already did that in the baseline monk one level earlier (immunity to both, actually).
Feyral Form: Should be a minute, as it most resembles a Paladin transformation ability.


An interesting take on a more primal monk.



I should replay the Diablo trilogy...


Tainted Ki: What about later ki-spending features? Do you also get extra benefit from Deflect Missiles, or Empty Body? Do those still cost HP?
Haunted Dreams: This is rough. At level 3 a Burning Heart monk has more penalties than benefits, really. I would remove this as a mechanical effect and put it with Demonic Mark as a narrative ability.
Freed on Death should be a 6th level feature, since that's when it starts to actually do something. You can put the description of what the demon looks like escaping before that in Demonic Mark.
Tormented Fury has the potential to be incredibly strong, especially combined with the ability of monks to make so many attacks or to Dodge as a bonus action.
Final Confrontation is a great capstone for the theme of this class.



Overall, I think the class's tradeoffs are too extreme.In practice I worry that either the player will find a way to ignore the penalties in a practical sense (thus becoming too powerful in comparison to the rest of the party) or the penalties will be too much of a burden and render the play of this class unfun.




I tried to do a slasher as a base class a couple years ago. I may revisit my notes based on your stuff here at some point.


Birth of Horror(Hulking Stalker): Hard to mechanically enforce. How many things do you have to be hidden from? Just one? All that could see you? Can you use Cause Fear on a target that was aware of your position while hidden or just one that you've suprised?
Implement of Carnage (Killer of Killers): Eldritch Blast is not strong enough to need to be limited per long rest. This is probably one of the weakest options even if it wasn't limited since you can't sneak attack with it or even add an ability bonus to it, unlike all of the others.
The Reckoning: All of the options are too powerful except Killer of Killers, but Hulking Stalker's resist all physical and The Shape's no limit on sneak attack each round are especially too strong. And for New Nightmare, 7th level spells normally are limited to 1 per long rest (the sole exception of which I'm aware is Monk's Empty body feature at level 18, where the spell instead receives restrictions).
Reboot: There's no limit on use, which means you are functionally invincible.


Some comments that apply to all of the entries:

Choose one attibute to govern the subclass's features, or at least for each villain. For example right now, you have Blood Soaked using Int, Dex, and "highest mental stat". Pick one thing and stick with it across all features.
Everything in Birth of Horror gets a different way to access Cause Fear. This makes a lot of distinct ablities boil down to one spell. Give the class a second feature at level 3 that lets them cast Cause Fear X times per long rest, and build out the individual abilities of the Birth of Horror options.
Compare abilities you pick not just to other rogue abilities but to abilities from other classes. Want to give someone resistance? How do barbarians use it? Not sure how strong an extra saving throw is? Compare Monk.
In 5e, limitations per round are just as important as limitations per rest. If you're going to let someone do more in a round than they could normally, be careful. This goes double if you're letting them do something for no action instead of using their bonus action, especially for classes that rely on bonus action availability like Rogue or Monk.


It's a good theme, and you've got the chassis in place and that looks good too. Just needs some balancing tweaks.


Thanks for the feedback! My idea with the oath spells was to try and draw from the divine, natural, and arcane spell lists when possible, representing choice that way. In addition, spells like misty step and bigby's hand were chosen for their value in escaping certain kinds of restraints, as well as spells that had a protective or safeguarding aspect.

Segev
2020-04-01, 12:50 PM
Paying advice forward. Take it with a grain of salt.

I salute your creativity good sir/madam!
Wild shape into one beast as a Pact seems like a perfect amount of flavour and utility for a warlock.
Skinwalker especially seems interestingly balanced though dependent on DM giving out gold to use, but thats no different from a Book of Ancient Secrets Warlock.
I think the biggest issue is that youre limited to Beasts or Monstrosities. A Fiendlock might want to end up as a...well...fiend. And Good Warlocks might struggle with having to skin monsters to achieve the higher tiers of power. So maybe Acolyte of the Skin would work if they could choose creature type, obviously restricted from oozes, constructs and maybe dragons/undead. And maybe an alternative to Skinwalker of receiving parts of a creature as a gift. Maybe i help the Pegasi out and it gives me a feather yknow? Something less...murdery.
And just clarifying. You can switch forms infinite times without rest yeah?


Thanks for the feedback. :) This is the first time I've submitted something to these contests with a really solid feeling about the mechanics, and even so, I feel like I'm risking being overpowered.

Since you spoilered your feedback, I'll spoiler my reply. (Not sure if there's rules for this contest about it, convention, or if it was just space-saving; I haven't got a good feel for the 'way things are done' in this thread yet.)

To answer your last question first, yes, it's at-will, no-rest shifting, paid for by being limited in choice and by gold costs to get new forms. I'm a little unsure if I've overpriced the forms; I could see as little as 100x rather than 1000x, but I figured it's better to err on the side of caution, here.

An Invocation for Fiends (and other Types) might be a good one. Dragons might be fun as a sort-of capstone-level thing. 18th or even 20th level requirement? I hesitate to make it too "clean" to get gifts from other creatures, because there is a hidden cost in real play to having to actually kill something: you lose the potential ally.

The choice of Monstrosities was, however, based on the fact that they are, essentially, "magical Beasts," so seem the most natural upgrade from "only Beasts." While some are fully intelligent, they retain a quality of "animalistic" to them that keeps the Skinwalker vibe.

I almost made one that let you skin humanoids to assume their forms as disguises, using a more "keep your own stats, but you look like them and maybe get their languages and/or one of their proficiencies" approach, but I felt that it was a little too dark for something that other Invocations can already do most of. The disguise self and alter self Invocations handle looking like others much better, and still "fit" a theme with this Pact without being locked to it nor required choices. I feel like picking your type goes into similar territory.

Maybe something in Acolyte of the Skin that gives a "perk" for each kind of Patron. Fiendlocks can skin fiends. Feylocks can do so with Fey, and GoOlocks with Aberrations. Not sure what to do for Celestial Patron and (ugh) Hexblades.

Or maybe it should be a separate invocation that requires Acolyte of the Skin and a particular Patron for each kind:
"Fleshwarper" for GoOlocks, lets them add Aberrations to their options and...something about grafts, I think. Not sure yet.
"Faerie Bargains" for Feylocks, lets them add Fey and get their forms from gifts and bargains with creatures instead of skinning them.
"Inner Demon" for Fiendlocks (alternate name as "Inner Devil" or something for different Patrons), which adds Fiends to their list, but also lets them pick one kind of Fiend that they could hunt and have that become their "true" form. They shed their own skin, which becomes something they can don or doff, and which is replaced like a fiend's skin would be if damaged to the point they can't use it.
Not sure I like this one; the theme is nice, but the power seems too high.
"Last Rites" for Celestial-Patron Warlocks: they add Celestials to their list, and don't have to participate in the killing of the creature. If they find the corpse of one that died within one week per Warlock level, they can perform the ritual over the corpse, and most of the corpse will vanish to the Celestial Planes while an appropriate token is left behind. (Costs are as normal.) Celestials may voluntarily stand for the ritual and be sent back to their home plane, otherwise unharmed, leaving their token behind.
I can't think of anything good for Hexblades. I blame their unfocused, slapped-together fluff that makes no sense.

Damon_Tor
2020-04-01, 01:49 PM
Pact of the Skin

This is rad and I love it, so this is coming from a place of love; this steps on the druid's toes, hard. That's not an unfixable problem, that's just a balance problem, getting the numbers right.

While I sympathize with the idea that the Pact Boon is a subclass, power-wise that just isn't so: before invocations, a pact boon is somewhere between the power level of a fighting style and a feat. Giving a warlock a 1 CR beast form at level 3 (with no restrictions on movement modes no less) makes them more powerful in beast form than a standard druid, and on-par with a moon druid, which is the subclass devoted to the concept. Skinwalker allows the warlock to keep pace with the Moon Druid at every level, for the cost of one of the warlock's many invocations.

I consider the lack of being able to heal the beast for free twice on short rests is a fair compensation for having the duration be unlimited, so I'm not worried about that part.

Gold cost as a balancing factor isn't a good idea; you're putting the DM in the position of having to measure out the gold you get, making sure you don't get too much to make you overpowered or so little you don't get to use your features. Published adventures are all over the place in terms of gold reward: there's simply not a "wealth by level" concept in 5e. Start your character with one adventure and have more money than you can ever spend by the end of it, or start with another and have some cool magic items but no liquid readymoney. The cost a Tome warlock pays for rituals is a poor comparison: rituals are generally not relevant to combat: a Tomelock who finishes Dragonheist isn't going to break anything by filling his tome with every ritual in the game.

In my opinion: You should limit the basic skin to a CR of 1/4, no swim speeds, no flying speeds. This puts you on even footing with a standard druid of the same level. Make skinwalker available immediately, but only allow skins with a CR equal to 1/4 your warlock level and reduce the gold cost significantly, just enough of a cost to keep the warlock from skinning everything it kills and carrying around 20 pounds of furry hats, maybe 50gp per CR. Continue to prohibit swim and flight speeds. You can have the swim speeds and flying speeds unlock at levels 4 and 8 automatically if you like, but I would probably require their own invocations if it were me.

And I agree with Lvl45DM, patron-specific invocations allowing for appropriate non-beast forms is a good idea, but I also think the limit of 1/4 warlock level CR should be enforced at all levels and there should be a limit set on skins that get spellcasting as a part of their stat block. Maybe you can use skins to access spells you couldn't ordinarily, but you still need to use your normal spell slots to cast them, and thus need to have spell slots of an appropriate level. So a feylock could turn into a pixie (CR 1/4) at any level assuming he has the appropriate invocation and has skinned one (or whatever), and would have access to all the pixie's normal spells, but would have to use his own slots to cast them, and could not cast the higher level spells (such as polymorph) until he had the spell slots with which to do so.

I'll also agree with another one of Lvl45DM's points, maybe an explicit "skinning" shouldn't be necessary in all cases. I would think each patron would have its own specific invocation allowing that patron's creature types form to be worn, and the specific rules for those particular skins can be outlined in those invocations. So the Fiend would have different rules and procedures for wearing fiends than the Archfey would for wearing fey.

Segev
2020-04-01, 02:36 PM
I rather dearly want it to have the swim or fly speed; that's one of the primary reasons it is, by default, only one form, and they have to wait a couple levels before Invocations let them get more than one.

Putting the fly/swim speed restrictions on Invocation-granted forms acquired by hunting is pretty reasonable.

The gp-cost thing is something I feel is valid - in part for the reason you, Damon_Tor, point out that it's there to keep them from getting 500 fur hats - because not only the Tomelock but also Wizards have a similar gate to their power expansion. But I will consider the clipping to 50 gp per CR (minimum 50 gp).

1/4 Warlock level is not a bad limitation. I'll point out that that's still just shy of CR 1 at level 3, meaning CR 1/2 is still on the table. I think that restricts the Giant Spider, but (barring the flight limit) would allow a Giant Owl.

Damon_Tor
2020-04-01, 03:35 PM
I rather dearly want it to have the swim or fly speed; that's one of the primary reasons it is, by default, only one form, and they have to wait a couple levels before Invocations let them get more than one.

You could have flying forms require their own invocation, one that isn't level gated. So they'd they'd be able to fly (or swim) with it right out of the box, but it would come at an opportunity cost. I still don't think that would be fair to druids, but at least it would feel more fair.


The gp-cost thing is something I feel is valid - in part for the reason you, Damon_Tor, point out that it's there to keep them from getting 500 fur hats - because not only the Tomelock but also Wizards have a similar gate to their power expansion. But I will consider the clipping to 50 gp per CR (minimum 50 gp).

Wizards have their full range of power with zero gold: the spells they add to their spellbook at each levelup are entirely free. That means they will always have enough spells to prepare their full allotment everyday and still have plenty left over. What they gain by spending gold is more options, not more power. A warlock level 9 who can spend 3000 gold can become a polar bear, a warlock who cannot spend that gold cannot. Any wizard who wants to take Polymorph at level 7 can add it to their spellbook for free: he only needs to spend gold if he wants Polymorph AND two other 4th level spells.


1/4 Warlock level is not a bad limitation.

It isn't far off, it's better than a vanilla druid can manage at that level, but still worse than a moon druid, and I think that's the sweet spot you should be aiming for.

Segev
2020-04-01, 04:39 PM
You could have flying forms require their own invocation, one that isn't level gated. So they'd they'd be able to fly (or swim) with it right out of the box, but it would come at an opportunity cost. I still don't think that would be fair to druids, but at least it would feel more fair.I was really hoping that a Pact of the Skin warlock who took no specialty invocations for it would have one singular form that might be acquatic or avian if he chose, but I do see your point.

Part of where I'm coming from on giving Warlocks a leg up in some areas of this is precedent with a mere INVOCATION overshadowing an entire subclass from level 2-10: Misty Visions, single-handedly, makes a Warlock a superior illusionist to the Illusionist from levels 2-4, and from levels 6-10 it just takes minor illusion to provide sound for it to keep up and stay ahead of major image and its not-at-will casting limitation. It's not until major image can be made permanent at 11th level that the Illusionist finally truly catches up with and overtakes the Warlock with Misty Visions and minor illusion.

So giving a Warlock flight/swimming early and an at-will change to one specific form (where druids have any form they have ever seen, within certain limits) feels just the right amount of "unfair" to me. Though giving it as an Invocation tax might also work.


Wizards have their full range of power with zero gold: the spells they add to their spellbook at each levelup are entirely free. That means they will always have enough spells to prepare their full allotment everyday and still have plenty left over. What they gain by spending gold is more options, not more power. A warlock level 9 who can spend 3000 gold can become a polar bear, a warlock who cannot spend that gold cannot. Any wizard who wants to take Polymorph at level 7 can add it to their spellbook for free: he only needs to spend gold if he wants Polymorph AND two other 4th level spells.Maybe having each Invocation give a freebie form, so that the gold to add new ones is like the wizard's spellbook expansions, would do it?


It isn't far off, it's better than a vanilla druid can manage at that level, but still worse than a moon druid, and I think that's the sweet spot you should be aiming for.Agreed, that's a good spot. I'm aiming for an overlap where the warlock has some perks the druid doesn't, but can't do everything the druid can, and where the druid will leave him behind at higher levels. Or at least take a truly distinct direction.


Edit: Redid it, incorporating suggestions given. Reduced things to 1/4 level CR, and added "free" forms to the expansion Invocations as well as altering the costs. I think Fleshwarper might be a little too much, but it really just is more choices until you start hunting down the Big Three aberrations for their body parts.

Segev
2020-04-03, 03:39 PM
I feel I should do my best to give my own feedback on classes. I apologize to the Mechanist; I don't know the Artificer well enough to comment on the subclass.

I've only got time to comment on the Oath of Volition for now, so more will come later!

Oath of Volition

I like the theme, here, and how it is a nod to the contest theme in and of itself. The idea of upholding agency and responsibility together seem very Paladin to me.

Oath Spells
The notion of being able to prepare from a very limited list what your Oath Spells are is a unique one for Paladins (or Domain Clerics, or Land Druids, or....) and plays interestingly with the theme of making a choice. I can already see that the choice here is not in the build but at a particular time.

That said, some of the spells in the list seem...off...to me. Speak with animals doesn't make a lot of sense outside of the "be creative" admonishment from one of the Oath Tennets, and that particular justification could justify literally any spell. I think this is an athematic choice. I feel similarly about Bigby's hand, which has little to do with the idea of choice, freedom, or responsibility. The biggest offender, though, is blindness/deafness, which seems to me to fly in the face of the themes of the subclass by denying others' agency through restricting their ability to make informed choices.

I would suggest replacing speak with animals with something that grants more mobility, like jump, longstrider, or expeditious retreat. Maybe calm emotions or augury in place of blindness/deafness; the former clears heads and enables more rational and thus responsible decision-making, while the latter gives more information and thus increases agency. I think awaken, commune, or scrying would fit better than Bigby's hand, for different reasons.

Channel Divinity
Each of these options seems reasonable for the theme. But just adding a third option isn't adding "choice," but rather versatility and power. It's a little awkward, but I might suggest that they must pick 2 of the three at the start of each day. Perhaps their list of Oath Spells depends on which one they do not choose, rather than being a mix-and-match grab-bag, as well? This would make there be a meaningful choice each morning, as their spells are thematically linked to the two Channels they chose to have.

Aura of Liberty
I like this; it works as-is. You might consider, if you take my suggestion of linking spells to the two Channels they chose, linking an aura to the two of them, as well. Make it one big choice each day. But that's for thematic reasons, not for balance ones, unlike my suggestion about making them pick 2/3 of the Channels.

Inexorable March
I like the movement part of this. I like it a lot; it is evocative with the name and suits the theme of the subclass. But I feel like the attack options at the end are...tacked-on. Shoving people feels more like something the Unstoppable Charge divinity channel is about; there's nothing "inexorably marching" about it, and grappling, while potent, once again feels the opposite of what this subclass is about: grappling is enforcing your will on others, seizing control of their movement from them.

I suggest an alternative:

Starting at 15th level, you can ignore difficult terrain, including aerial hazards that would interfere with flight. When you move through it, you may select any number of creatures you can see. Your undaunted determination inspires them if they wish to follow you, and they may treat terrain through which you've moved as if it were normal (not difficult) for the next minute. If you are mounted, this feature applies to your mount and terrain through which it moves. When you use your Unstoppable Charge channel divinity, you can try to Shove any creature you hit with a melee weapon attack as a result of that action, even if you hit multiple creatures.

I removed all grapple stuff from it, and gave it a way to allow the paladin to increase the volition of others by letting them follow his example if they choose. Also did something with flying, because by this level, flight is a thing that happens.

Invincible Idea
This one's pretty cool. Here's where you could unlock access to all three Channel Divinities while it's active, or something similar.