Letting Muggles Have Nice Things: Downtime Edition

[Nifft]

In the game's fiction, magic stuff takes time. There are a few mechanical representations for this: the hour every day of prayer / meditation / spell preparation, for example, or the Wizard's spell copying time requirement.

For classes like the Wizard, the fiction also assumes that the PC is spending additional time doing some kind of magical research in order to justify the two (or more) free spells learned on level-up.

Spellcasters may also take time out for stuff like magic item creation, or inventing new spells, or summoning and bullying greater demons.


Could we figure out a way to make this time spent on magic stuff a resource, and then let non-magical PCs use this resource for their own awesome things?

For example, let's say the party is in a city for a few days. The Wizard is scribing spells. The Cleric is praying and tithing. The Druid is visiting every ancient oak tree in a two mile radius and peeing on them. What are the Rogue and the Fighter doing? Let them just declare that they're doing level-appropriate awesome stuff.

Rogue: "I seduce the prince. He's attracted to my wiry muscles and roguish charms."

Fighter: "I defeat the captain of the guards, and we become friends."


What kind of mechanical teeth can these sorts of declarations have?

IMHO these ought to be infrequently useful, but when they're used they ought to have a very significant impact. Like, the Fighter calling upon the favor of the royal guards means the PCs are no longer suspects in the investigation, in fact they're now in meetings with the inspector magistrate, trying to help solve the case (for which they'd previously been framed) with the full cooperation of the local authorities.


How could that sort of thing be achieved?

[legomaster00156]

Isn't this basically exactly what roleplaying is for?

[Venger]

I like this idea. That sounds like a lot of fun. I like the spirit of the fix.

Do you want advice/feedback predominantly about mechanical simulations for this kind of thing? Things like making allies or what have you (getting favors, currying influence, etc) sound like they would be difficult to avoid making pure fluff. Do you want to say "give mundane characters x amount of gp in hirelings during this time" and that would represent the devotion of a band of mercenaries or similar?

What is your cutoff for who is classified as a mundane and who is classified as a caster under this schema? Is it a firm level cutoff, a ratio, or something else?

[Nifft]

Isn't this basically exactly what roleplaying is for?

No, because that involves the whole party and takes table time.

That's a separate tool, and it's a tool everyone can already use equally -- so there's no slack to give muggles. They already have access to all the roleplaying they can grasp, and casters have the same access, and roleplaying is not going to solve mechanical balance issues.


I like this idea. That sounds like a lot of fun. I like the spirit of the fix.

Do you want advice/feedback predominantly about mechanical simulations for this kind of thing? Things like making allies or what have you (getting favors, currying influence, etc) sound like they would be difficult to avoid making pure fluff. Do you want to say "give mundane characters x amount of gp in hirelings during this time" and that would represent the devotion of a band of mercenaries or similar?

What is your cutoff for who is classified as a mundane and who is classified as a caster under this schema? Is it a firm level cutoff, a ratio, or something else? Glad you like!

Yes, please do post specific ideas about what sorts of things might be reasonable perks at different level ranges, and how often the PCs might benefit, and what sort of resource could be used as currency for these narrative powers.

Reputation: +4 nefarious brute, +2 folk hero

Connections: +2 House Cannith, +3 Church of the Silver Flame

A Certain Je Ne Sais Quoi: you have 10 acjnsq, but nobody knows what they do


Hmm, yeah, who is a caster... Maybe it's a graded scale? So at each level, you earn downtime points equal to (character level +2), but you lose downtime points equal to (your highest spell slot x2). That handles bard / gish / theurge in a tolerably balanced way, I think, and even the full-casters get a point or two which keeps the system engaging for the whole party ... it's just that a high-level muggle will get a lot MORE of those points.

[Venger]

Glad you like!

Yes, please do post specific ideas about what sorts of things might be reasonable perks at different level ranges, and how often the PCs might benefit, and what sort of resource could be used as currency for these narrative powers.

Reputation: +4 nefarious brute, +2 folk hero

Connections: +2 House Cannith, +3 Church of the Silver Flame

A Certain Je Ne Sais Quoi: you have 10 acjnsq, but nobody knows what they do


Hmm, yeah, who is a caster... Maybe it's a graded scale? So at each level, you earn downtime points equal to (character level +2), but you lose downtime points equal to (your highest spell slot x2). That handles bard / gish / theurge in a tolerably balanced way, I think, and even the full-casters get a point or two which keeps the system engaging for the whole party ... it's just that a high-level muggle will get a lot MORE of those points.

Hm.

Have you thought about looking at affiliation tables? Some of them exist in complete champion, for example the ones about the paragnostic assembly. You might look at those and form a similar schema for organizations in your campaign. Instead of abstract affiliation scores based on tasks, since it sounds like you want to base it on time, you could set the cutoffs for benefits at x days.

e.g.
first echelon: devote 1 day's downtime pool to organization's goals
second echelon: devote 10 days' downtime pool to organization's goals

etc.

You might also check out eberron campaign setting and dragonmarked and see the kind of benefits you can reap from favored in house for a ballpark of how powerful or useful you want the favors or tasks you need done to be and develop an equivalent amount of days' downtime, depending on how much downtime you give players in your campaign, since this will vary from gm to gm.

Graded scale makes sense on the face of it. that way a mundane character with a gish blueprint won't lose his goodies when he takes his first caster level, and a caster won't suddenly gain access from zero when taking their first mundane level.

It sounds like you want a fairly small number. Something like action points, numberswise?

You may think about giving mundanes access to the ua reputation system, or use it as an influence in your schema

[BowStreetRunner]

A friend and I were working on a mechanic for confidence jobs and heists a while back. While we never got very far, I think in theory what we were working on might serve your purposes with regard to rogues.

So basically the preparation for a con job or heist was time consuming - watch any of the Ocean's X films or any other decent heist film and you'll get the idea - casing the place, doing research, figuring out the techniques that will be needed for the job and recruiting the necessary specialists (npcs), etc. We were going to put together a book of con job 'recipes' that had a summary of the roles and rolls required.
For instance, the Spanish Prisoner (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Prisoner) (which I think we renamed the Orcish Prisoner or something like that) would require a series of skill checks


A DC 20 Gather Information check to find the right mark,
a DC 15 Knowledge Local check to put together a convincing backstory for the con,
a Forgery check to put together a convincing set of documents supporting the con,
a Disguise check to change the con into a suitable person requiring the mark's assistance,
a Diplomacy check to win over the mark,
a Bluff check to convince the mark the story is true,
a Sense Motive check to evaluate how much the mark can be convinced to give during each iteration of the con,
then repeat the diplomacy, bluff, and sense motive checks at intervals until the entire con job has run its course.

Since many of these are preparatory, those checks could be done in advance of a job before the actual job is roleplayed. So in this case everything up to the Disguise check would be done before the con even began. This particular con could be performed by a single person, so wouldn't necessary require hiring any specialists, but the rogue could decide it would work better with accomplices and add those as needed.

We would have made a book of these, adding new cons whenever we thought of them, with each having its own recipe.

[Der_DWSage]

...Also a thought. A lot of what casters get is narrative power, rather than combat power. (Though don't get me wrong, there's plenty of that too.) What if you gave the Downtime a few ways to balance that out?

2 units of Downtime = 1 "spell" that an equal level caster could manage, with some form of appropriate skill check.

For example, the Rogue makes contacts with a Thieves' Guild. In exchange for helping them on heists and schemes and general rogueish activities, he can acquire the following.


The local Acrobats Guild offers guidance on how to best use the streets of the town to one's advantage. You can learn the following as a 1st level PC.
Cobbleskidding:+30 Movement Speed for 1 minute/Rank in Balance. This can only be used in Urban environments.
Vault:Gain a +10 Enhancement bonus to Jump checks for 1 minute/Rank in Jump. This increases to a +20 bonus at 8 ranks and +30 at 12 ranks. The user is fatigued for 1 minute afterwards, and Vault cannot be used while Fatigued.
Entertainer's Entrances:Can detect the presence of secret doors within 60 feet, but not where they are or the mechanism to open them without a successful Search check.


The Local Thieves' Guild is looking for new talent, and willing to share a few secrets in return. You can learn the following as a 3rd level PC.
Thief's Symbol:A minor magic item that connects the user to the Plane of Shadow. This allows the user to use Invisibility once, and can be recharged by a member of the Thieves' guild that has the 'Thief's Master' ability.
Garl's Fingers:Grants the user a Climb Speed for 1 minute/Rank in Climb. 40 GP must be arranged in the user's boots and shirt (Taking 1 minute of time) for this to be used, which vanishes afterwards.

...And so on, and so forth. Until you're eventually getting things like Shadowwalk by being shown the secret entrances, people trained in Heal and Survival can use Heal and Raise Dead by being shown the secrets of Elves the Way of Druids, Crafters can 'borrow' the guild for a Fabricate effect, Fighters learn to Teleport by jumping seven leagues in one go...I'd see it going something like this.

Effect:Something comparable to a spell of equal level, or a magic item that would cost no more than 10% of WBL. (I'm mostly using spells as shorthand because there's so many of the things, why not?) Further note:This should be restrained to things out of combat, or at the very most, skill checks. However, I could see exceptions for specific preparations-finding a Lillend for help being immune to a Harpy's Captivating Song, or learning the Demon-Penitance Thrust that mimics Dimensional Anchor and only works on Evil Outsiders.
Restriction:If the spell is one that would be too good to have constantly (Such as Invisibility, Fly, a gigantic bonus on skill checks...) it gets at least one restriction.

GP cost, as if buying the service from a spellcaster.
Negative Status, such as Fatigue, Exhaustion, and stat damage, that also prohibit further use while currently suffering from the condition.
Can only be used in a certain environment, or against a certain class of enemy.
Long preparation time. (1 minute or longer.)
Limited use. Preferably with a way to have more uses at higher levels. (The Thief's Symbol Invisibility bit above was going to have a 9th level ability to recharge a Thief's Symbol 3/day.)

Duration:Typically defined in Minutes or Rounds equal to your Rank in a skill. (This further prohibits casters from getting in on it, since many of these skills will be cross-class and less effective than using a spell slot for them, but let Mundanes have it as their shtick.)
Downtime Cost:I'm eyeballing it a bit, but I'm thinking no more than 2 'Association Spells' per 3 levels, so divide your Downtime Units that way. Granted, I mostly say that for the folks that don't want too much of a spell list, but I feel like the GM will start having issues challenging players with non-combat when they have more abilities than levels.

[Nifft]

Hm.

Have you thought about looking at affiliation tables? Brilliant. I'll take a look at those. They might provide a coherent scale for points, too.


It sounds like you want a fairly small number. Something like action points, numberswise? Could be, yeah. I think smaller numbers are easier to eyeball.


You may think about giving mundanes access to the ua reputation system, or use it as an influence in your schema I feel like Reputation should probably be party-wide, since their major exploits & enemies are generally going to be the same.



A friend and I were working on a mechanic for confidence jobs and heists a while back. While we never got very far, I think in theory what we were working on might serve your purposes with regard to rogues. That's a cool use for downtime, but it seems like the checks are party-wide rather than per-character.



...Also a thought. A lot of what casters get is narrative power, rather than combat power. (Though don't get me wrong, there's plenty of that too.) What if you gave the Downtime a few ways to balance that out? Yep, that narrative power is exactly what those "Declarations" in the OP are about. :smallsmile:

"I seduce the prince." / "I befriend the captain of the royal knights."

That's narrative power on par with caster stuff like "I summon and bind the arch-demon Nez'xlhb" or "I commune with my god and ask..."

I want to figure out a scale for that sort of declaration, and then make a point-system which gives more points to less-magical PCs.

This should be stuff anyone could do, but magical PCs don't do it because they're busy with their magical stuff.



2 units of Downtime = 1 "spell" that an equal level caster could manage, with some form of appropriate skill check.

For example, the Rogue makes contacts with a Thieves' Guild. In exchange for helping them on heists and schemes and general rogueish activities, he can acquire the following. Those look like tactical combat powers.

That's all cool stuff, but not really what I think of as narrative effects.

[BowStreetRunner]

That's a cool use for downtime, but it seems like the checks are party-wide rather than per-character.
It really depends on the circumstances of the individual check. The rogue might do some of the prep themselves, while other steps might require other party members. In some cases, the rogue might even pull off an entire job by themselves during the downtime.

While most parties go into town and sell off loot then buy equipment, the rogue can go into town and fence goods stolen elsewhere while stealing goods to be sold elsewhere, or even stealing the supplies the party needs.

[Nifft]

In some cases, the rogue might even pull off an entire job by themselves during the downtime.

Now that sounds like exactly the sort of thing I'm looking for.


What scale of heist seems reasonable as a downtime declaration?

[Karl Aegis]

Now that sounds like exactly the sort of thing I'm looking for.


What scale of heist seems reasonable as a downtime declaration?

A Profession (Heist) Check.

[BowStreetRunner]

A Profession (Heist) Check.
A Profession check results in half your check result in gold pieces per week of work. A Craft check can also result in half your check result in gold pieces per week of dedicated work. These are the standard that you should measure against.

I would allow other skills to be used similarly - like a Sleight of Hand check to determine how much a rogue can make working as a pickpocket, or a bluff check to determine how much can be made doing con jobs - with the caveat that rolls below a certain threshold result in the rogue getting caught in the act and an appropriate encounter resulting from that failure. Some of the loot earned would be in items instead of coin, so you might have a rogue trying to pick up some supplies do an open lock check and they could acquire supplies with a value up to the gp value of that roll (which would of course sell at 1/2 the value if they want to convert to coin so that would still be equivalent).

[Ursus Spelaeus]

Oldschool D&D was designed with the assumption that fighters would build strongholds and attract followers. Why not make that the focus of mundane downtime?

If normal people are distrustful of spellcasters in your setting, you might give mundanes bonuses to their leadership score and discounts to building materials.

[Venger]

Now that sounds like exactly the sort of thing I'm looking for.


What scale of heist seems reasonable as a downtime declaration?

sounds like more fun than stealing amazing locks

[Cosi]

I would be hesitant to try to base any major subsystem off of skill checks. It doesn't work for the Truenamer, and it's unlikely to work here. Skill bonuses can be wildly divergent between different characters, even within the same nominal specialty. Any formula that produces reasonable results at one table is going to produce results that are all the way off the RNG at another.

[Nifft]

I would be hesitant to try to base any major subsystem off of skill checks. It doesn't work for the Truenamer, and it's unlikely to work here. Skill bonuses can be wildly divergent between different characters, even within the same nominal specialty. Any formula that produces reasonable results at one table is going to produce results that are all the way off the RNG at another.

What I want is not a skill check, but rather just to give the muggles a bunch of points / tokens / whatever and they pay those to modify the universe in some structured way.

Casters would also get some of these points, but far fewer. Perhaps they could also pay someone to do things like "steal the crown jewels" for them -- this would be analogous to how a muggle can pay a caster to cast a spell.