Narrative and mechanical issues with changed rests

[mithrawnudo]

I am running my first 5e campaign, and I've become nearly fed up with an issue I've had with PF/DnD for a long while, the narrative implications of spellcasters and/or Vancian (or even psuedo-Vancian) abilities. I also searched the forums but couldn't find any relevant topics, but my forum-fu might be weak.

My players are mix of new and veterans, so there isn't an emphasis on gaming the system per se, but I'm bothered by the narrative issues that arise from the mechanics of rests and restorations of abilities. To whit: I recently ran a more traditional dungeon crawl set within a fix-time frame. The party had to clear a cult's underground nest in order to rescue a character within a few hours or the character would be sacrificed. This allowed me to build a nice little dungeon, sprinkle in some encounters, and really see how the presumed 6-8 encounters per day worked out. In the end, it tested the party and made the later stage encounters feel much more tense than normal. They all agreed it was a good session, better than most, and in part because the encounters, combat and non-combat, called for a greater level of finesse and forethought than normal. The party had no way of knowing how many more issues they would run into across the next few hours, so not just expending resources but rather having to weigh those abilities became more of a challenge.

So I'm thinking about running something similar to the "gritty realism" alternate rule that would change the duration of short rests to be the same and the long rests to be a few days in town. Mechanically, a 6-8 encounter dungeon over the course of a single day would be near identical to a 6-8 encounter week, with the exception of needing the longer duration spells/abilities have even longer effects.

Are there any glaring issues with this, and has anyone had experience with either the "gritty realism" or a similar alternative?

[Grog Logs]

Quoting myself from another thread: We're using a modified version of the Gritty Realism Variant. Basically, a short rest (SR) is 8 hours; a long rest (LR) is a week (i.e., 7 days) of downtime; and PCs are only allowed to take 2 SR per LR (but each PC can choose when). This should keep all the math of the game on track for an "average" adventuring day.

In order to help balance the spellcasters, most spells with a duration of 1 hour now last 1 day, most that last 8 hours last 3 days, and most that last 24 hours last 7 days.
*******
Thus far, it's working well. I also find that the longer rests allow for interesting story telling, especially if your world changes even when the players don't act.

For example, if they have to defeat a sea hag before the next full moon in order to disrupt a non-PHB spell of disasterous proportions, then they have 3 long rest at most (less if they have to travel long distances).

[Malifice]

I am running my first 5e campaign, and I've become nearly fed up with an issue I've had with PF/DnD for a long while, the narrative implications of spellcasters and/or Vancian (or even psuedo-Vancian) abilities. I also searched the forums but couldn't find any relevant topics, but my forum-fu might be weak.

My players are mix of new and veterans, so there isn't an emphasis on gaming the system per se, but I'm bothered by the narrative issues that arise from the mechanics of rests and restorations of abilities. To whit: I recently ran a more traditional dungeon crawl set within a fix-time frame. The party had to clear a cult's underground nest in order to rescue a character within a few hours or the character would be sacrificed. This allowed me to build a nice little dungeon, sprinkle in some encounters, and really see how the presumed 6-8 encounters per day worked out. In the end, it tested the party and made the later stage encounters feel much more tense than normal. They all agreed it was a good session, better than most, and in part because the encounters, combat and non-combat, called for a greater level of finesse and forethought than normal. The party had no way of knowing how many more issues they would run into across the next few hours, so not just expending resources but rather having to weigh those abilities became more of a challenge.

So I'm thinking about running something similar to the "gritty realism" alternate rule that would change the duration of short rests to be the same and the long rests to be a few days in town. Mechanically, a 6-8 encounter dungeon over the course of a single day would be near identical to a 6-8 encounter week, with the exception of needing the longer duration spells/abilities have even longer effects.

Are there any glaring issues with this, and has anyone had experience with either the "gritty realism" or a similar alternative?

Firstly Im a huge fan of [doom clock] adventures like the one you've designed above. 3-4 hours and enough time for 2-3 short rests, to [save the NPC/ destroy the macguffin/ stop the ritual], with 6-8 encounters in that time.

As youve seen, when done right it really brings the players on point (the race against the clock unites the table, and they have to plan accordingly, and ration out those short rests) ability usage is underlined and highlighted when it happens (that Rage or Action surge or Slot or Smite really stands out when used) and there is a growing tension and desperation as the adventure continues that really makes success sweeter.

Tactical and strategic options increase becuase its no longer 'mash buttons'. You have to think your way through encounters, and are faced with a lot of decision points around 'do I use this now, or save it for later?'

That said, what I have found DMing a campaign from 1st to 20th+ is that it gets increasingly difficult to contrive doom clocks and other environmental constraints to adhere to the 6-8/2-3 paradigm on a semi regular basis, without it breaking credulity.

Ive also found that 1 hour short rests are immersion breaking and jarring. When you only have a few hours to save the Queen, stopping and putting your feet up for a whole hour a few times inside that space is weird and immersion breaking.

For the next campaign I'm using the following:


Short rests are 5 minutes long, but you are limited to a maximum of 2 per long rest. During a short rest you can spend up to 1/2 HD (round up) to heal.
Long rests are 8 hours long, and you cant benefit from more than 1 every 24 hours. On a long rest you recover no HP, but do recover 1/4 of all expended HD (round up), and can spend them immediately at the end of the rest if you desire. You also recover 1 spell slot of each of levels 1-5 (if you have slots of that level) and you also recover 1 spell slot (or mystic arcanum) of levels 6-9 (your choice).


It gives me a lot more wiggle room to frame longer multi-day adventures, or to simply use 'random' encounters to keep the party depleted of resources (and players are more cautious with resource usage as it takes several days to recover all HD, HP and Slots).

You get a little bit of juice back in the tank on a long rest, but not a full recharge of all your HP, most HD and all spells.

Ive also reduced the Barbarian Rages/ long rest by 1, but given them a free F/S at 2nd level to compensate (GWS, TWF, Dueling and Protection).

Works a charm in the test games I have run so far, and really cuts a lot of work for the DM out in having to constantly contrive plot elements to police the adventuring day.

[Dyndrilliac]

I second Grog Logs; my group is also currently experimenting with the Gritty Realism variant rest rules, as well as the Healing Surges variant healing rules to decouple the rest mechanics from the healing mechanics. This strategy most benefits characters that have good mechanical uses for downtime: primarily wizards and other classes that benefit a great deal from preparation and recon.

Another solution that I've had mixed success with in "superhero" style high-fantasy campaigns is to simply eliminate resting as a mechanic altogether. Characters that regain their abilities on a long rest recharge automatically at dawn regardless of circumstances, and characters that recharge on short rests do so at high-noon and dusk in addition to dawn. This maintains the 1 long rest per 24 hours and 2 short rests per long rest math that the game is balanced around while significantly simplifying the game. The major downside I've experienced with this strategy is you have to keep meticulous track of in-game time, and then you have to decide how to deal with other mechanics that got folded into resting because WotC was lazy. This includes things like identifying magic items (sans Identify), using hit dice for healing (again, I prefer the Healing Surges variant rule), and class features like the Wizard's Arcane Recovery.

[Malifice]

This maintains the 1 long rest per 24 hours and 2 short rests per long rest math that the game is balanced around

Actually the game isn't balanced around (number and type of rests in a 24 hour period).

Its balanced around (number and type of rests per half dozen or so encounters).

[Darkstar952]

For the next campaign I'm using the following:


Short rests are 5 minutes long, but you are limited to a maximum of 2 per long rest. During a short rest you can spend up to 1/2 HD (round up) to heal.
Long rests are 8 hours long, and you cant benefit from more than 1 every 24 hours. On a long rest you recover no HP, but do recover 1/4 of all expended HD (round up), and can spend them immediately at the end of the rest if you desire. You also recover 1 spell slot of each of levels 1-5 (if you have slots of that level) and you also recover 1 spell slot (or mystic arcanum) of levels 6-9 (your choice).


It gives me a lot more wiggle room to frame longer multi-day adventures, or to simply use 'random' encounters to keep the party depleted of resources (and players are more cautious with resource usage as it takes several days to recover all HD, HP and Slots).

You get a little bit of juice back in the tank on a long rest, but not a full recharge of all your HP, most HD and all spells.

Ive also reduced the Barbarian Rages/ long rest by 1, but given them a free F/S at 2nd level to compensate (GWS, TWF, Dueling and Protection).

Works a charm in the test games I have run so far, and really cuts a lot of work for the DM out in having to constantly contrive plot elements to police the adventuring day.

I really like this idea, may give it a try when I start my next campaign.

Do you have any plans to change warlocks, it seems like they will gain a power boost over other spellcasters by continuing to get all of their spell slots back on a short rest.

[Dyndrilliac]

Actually the game isn't balanced around (number and type of rests in a 24 hour period).

Its balanced around (number and type of rests per half dozen or so encounters).

It never fails. There is ALWAYS at least one pedantic person that has to try to incorrectly correct me...

DMG page 84. Yes, the game is designed around 6-8 medium/hard encounters per adventuring day. And an adventuring day, by default, is 24 hours. You can turn this into an adventuring week if that suits your fancy (which is what my group has done) or an adventuring month if you want. Regardless, whatever unit of time you pick, the game's math assumes that over this period you will take one long rest and two short rests. That's not me asserting that, that comes straight from the DMG:


In general, over the course of a full adventuring day, the party will likely need to take two short rests, about one-third and two-thirds of the way through the day.

Next time you might want to verify beforehand that someone is wrong before correcting them.

[PhoenixPhyre]

There is no link between adventuring days and 24 hour days. An adventuring day is merely the time between long rests during which a PC is under threat. Could be weeks, could be days, could be one day. Since you, by default, can't take a long rest more than once per 24 hours, 24 hours is the floor. But it's not the ceiling.

[Malifice]

It never fails. There is ALWAYS at least one pedantic person that has to try to incorrectly correct me...

DMG page 84. Yes, the game is designed around 6-8 medium/hard encounters per adventuring day. And an adventuring day, by default, is 24 hours. You can turn this into an adventuring week if that suits your fancy (which is what my group has done) or an adventuring month if you want. Regardless, whatever unit of time you pick, the game's math assumes that over this period you will take one long rest and two short rests. That's not me asserting that, that comes straight from the DMG:



Next time you might want to verify beforehand that someone is wrong before correcting them.

You are wrong.

Even the passage you quote above says as much.

[Armored Walrus]

the duration of short rests to be the same and the long rests to be a few days in town. Mechanically, a 6-8 encounter dungeon over the course of a single day would be near identical to a 6-8 encounter week, with the exception of needing the longer duration spells/abilities have even longer effects.

Are there any glaring issues with this, and has anyone had experience with either the "gritty realism" or a similar alternative?

You don't mention limiting those one hour short rests to only x per long rest. You'll need to add that or have monks and warlocks completely outshine your clerics and wizards. Other than that, I like how your system straddles the fence, so to speak. One issue with Gritty Realism variant is that it makes dungeons harder, or other areas where it's intended to clear out everything there before the whole place becomes aware of you. If you only homebrew, that's not a problem, but running modules with the gritty realism variant can be problematic. Your take on the system splits the difference, and I like it.

[mithrawnudo]

You don't mention limiting those one hour short rests to only x per long rest. You'll need to add that or have monks and warlocks completely outshine your clerics and wizards. Other than that, I like how your system straddles the fence, so to speak. One issue with Gritty Realism variant is that it makes dungeons harder, or other areas where it's intended to clear out everything there before the whole place becomes aware of you. If you only homebrew, that's not a problem, but running modules with the gritty realism variant can be problematic. Your take on the system splits the difference, and I like it.

All of my gaming groups hate monks for various reasons, so I've never looked at them, but an obvious solution seems to be limit their ability restores to 2 times per long rest, maintaining the intended balance.

"Something, something too much ki usage without rest..."

[Armored Walrus]

limit their ability restores to 2 times per long rest, maintaining the intended balance.

Exactly what I was saying. Add that to your variant and I think you're golden. I mean, of course no system is perfect. I'm sure you'll discover pros and cons through play. But it seems like it would work just fine most of the time.