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hydraphantom
2018-05-19, 01:05 AM
Winged basically everything, zero plan except a rough concept, throw things in when thought of something new, winged all monsters and no stat written down, muddy objectives: PCs seems to have a great time.

Thoroughly planned, little to none winging, full written stat on all homebrew monsters and all maps available, clear objectives: PCs doesn't seem to like it.

I don't know what I have got wrong... I spent 10x more times on the latter, and PCs don't like it and I don't know how to fix it.

Before these twos, some previous PCs complains that there were way too many branches that they don't even know how to proceed, so I have cut off most of the branches. And now these new PCs want more branches but I have no idea how to fit them in now.

UPDATE: Just then, my group met an abrupt end after the tension exploded due to PCs going completely opposite with the plan.

Perhaps I'm the one that's at fault here, I just mentally can't go another way after setting a planned path.

I think I should quit DMing for a while...

RazorChain
2018-05-19, 01:09 AM
Solution: Become an improv master who can spin a tale faster than a spider. Always ready to adapt to your players.

Thrudd
2018-05-19, 01:06 PM
There's a middle path between complete improv/no prep and a no-choice linear plot.
You should be prepared with maps of places the PCs will be and might go and enemies they might fight and charts and tables to help you decide what happens when nothing specific is planned or they go off the map you have ready.

They should have clear goals, but the sort that lets the players decide how to pursue them (more general/open goals), not the sort that are dictated by a series of events that you impose on them or that have only one path to pursue. Clear goals should reduce the paralysis of having too many options with no real way to decide between them. Open ended goals means they aren't locked into just one course of actions and events.

Quertus
2018-05-19, 01:10 PM
Have you considered a planned sandbox? Where the content is planned, but the paths are not?

By all means, take a break if you need one. But ruminate upon my idea, and get back with me.

More importantly, talk with the players about the too many / too few paths problem.

Darth Ultron
2018-05-19, 01:53 PM
My advice is to simply to tell the players. It is really that simple.

Most players, like most people, think ''X is bad'' as they are told it is bad, and being followers they just believe whatever they are told. So sure, plenty of players don't like anything planned and just want to to the random improv mess. A least, so they will say....and maybe even think.

Of course, if you were to have such a player play in two games, one planned and one random, without being told what each game was, chances are they would not be able to tell.

The two many paths is a typical whine and complaint. The player is making the complaint that they are can't ''see'' all the paths and can't ''pick one'', or worse ''what they crazily see as the right one". This player is making so many mistakes, but the big one is that the planned game has one path. You could tell this player to just ''be cool'' and just ''do whatever you want'' in the game...but chances are they are too far gone to ''get'' that Idea. Unless...

The ''planned sandbox'' is a great falsehood to use on players: they want to believe in it, so they will fall for it. The real trick here is to tell the players, at least every couple minutes, that the game is a ''planned sandbox'' and that ''they are the greatest players ever''. Then, you just run a normal planned game.

Quertus
2018-05-19, 02:14 PM
The ''planned sandbox'' is a great falsehood to use on players: they want to believe in it, so they will fall for it. The real trick here is to tell the players, at least every couple minutes, that the game is a ''planned sandbox'' and that ''they are the greatest players ever''. Then, you just run a normal planned game.

The OP didn't seem to like the idea of constantly having to wing things. So, when I said "planned sandbox", I meant - exactly as I said - that the content is all planned ahead of time, but the adventure is not. The maps are drawn, stats are written, etc. But the PCs are free to do whatever they want with the Tomb of Horrors - from exploring it, to strip mining it, to slaughtering the people living on top and adding their corpses to their undead army, to ignoring it all together.

Where the adventure and paths - the things the OP seemed to be having trouble with - were entirely in the hands of the players.

Darth Ultron
2018-05-19, 02:32 PM
The OP didn't seem to like the idea of constantly having to wing things. So, when I said "planned sandbox", I meant - exactly as I said - that the content is all planned ahead of time, but the adventure is not. The maps are drawn, stats are written, etc. But the PCs are free to do whatever they want with the Tomb of Horrors - from exploring it, to strip mining it, to slaughtering the people living on top and adding their corpses to their undead army, to ignoring it all together.

Where the adventure and paths - the things the OP seemed to be having trouble with - were entirely in the hands of the players.

Right, a ''planned sandbox'' is a normal planned game where everyone says and believes it is a ''sandbox''. Like you said, very often even the DM themselves even believes the ''planned sandbox'' idea.

jayem
2018-05-19, 05:59 PM
Before these twos, some previous PCs [in the winged game] complains that there were way too many branches that they don't even know how to proceed, so [now in the planned game] I have [made it with few] branches . And now these new PCs [in the planned game?] want more branches but I have no idea how to fit them in now.

Am I reading this right?



PCs seems to have a great time.

Clearly you can constructively-improv (even from scratch) well enough for your players. So you don't need to be scared of it when coming from a head start of appropriate planning.

Given that and not coping well with players going against script. It might be that you can learn to inhibitory-improv and improve your planning for linear games (I.E in all situations come up with reasons why the plan is the only option). Or it might be that linear games are not for you, and you could plan for a more sandboxy game as mentioned.
Or of course you can do both depending on the situation, if you keep the linear segments short or vague then the players are more likely to be near script and you have less emotional investment if you suddenly have to convert it sandboxy.

RazorChain
2018-05-19, 08:58 PM
My advice is to simply to tell the players. It is really that simple.

Most players, like most people, think ''X is bad'' as they are told it is bad, and being followers they just believe whatever they are told. So sure, plenty of players don't like anything planned and just want to to the random improv mess. A least, so they will say....and maybe even think.

Then this is rectified. The OP just treats his players like sheep and tells them. Them being followers will think "He's right, planning is good, let's have a normal linear adventure". I mean they believe whatever they are being told. SIMPLE AS HELL. Problem solved, everyone can go home now because I just won the internet!



Of course, if you were to have such a player play in two games, one planned and one random, without being told what each game was, chances are they would not be able to tell.

Tsk, tsk, Darth haven't we discussed this before? Your inability to improvise may lead to the game becoming a random mess. Me being the God of improvisers can run a perfectly fine campaign just by improvising. Improvising is nothing short of planning with a very very short notice. It's like you and me in a fight. Your inability to think on the spot will only lead to me kicking your butt. Me on the other hand will adapt to everything you throw at me and when I'm improvising you'll be like fish on dry land because your fightplan didn't survive contact with the enemy. Then afterward you'll try to explain to me how my fightplan was a random mess.



The two many paths is a typical whine and complaint. The player is making the complaint that they are can't ''see'' all the paths and can't ''pick one'', or worse ''what they crazily see as the right one". This player is making so many mistakes, but the big one is that the planned game has one path. You could tell this player to just ''be cool'' and just ''do whatever you want'' in the game...but chances are they are too far gone to ''get'' that Idea. Unless...

Unless what? I'm kinda waiting in constipation for you to finish that sentence? What do we do if the player is too far gone? Electric shock therapy? Nipple clamps and a car battery until he sees the errors of his ways?



The ''planned sandbox'' is a great falsehood to use on players: they want to believe in it, so they will fall for it. The real trick here is to tell the players, at least every couple minutes, that the game is a ''planned sandbox'' and that ''they are the greatest players ever''. Then, you just run a normal planned game.

Are you then suggesting an unplanned sandbox? I'm telling you sandboxes do exists....

You just throw some toys in(dungeons and stuff) and let the players have fun playing around. It isn't a analogy that is hard to grasp, for most people that have a brain at least.

A picture for demonstration maybe?

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6c/Sandbox-2013.jpg/800px-Sandbox-2013.jpg


See, in there is the player rutting around, having fun with the things that GM put there.

opaopajr
2018-05-20, 02:50 AM
My meta-solution compromise between improv & prep was to give out "Plot Coins" as an attendance-based currency, with occasional currency awards for awesome roleplay. Then, as I mentally generate the barest sketches of a branching quest, I just write down a title and a price for that quest. As players they may spend this meta-currency so as to inform me what they are interested in for some future session. And then I can focus my preparation time, and try to weave it into the game coherently.

Once a player cashes in their coins, I expect them to be rather attentive when I serve them up their quest for their PC. If other players are not interested, I do not oblige them or their PCs to attend. If they want to swap out an old PC for a new one so as to help their fellow player, cool!, and that new PC gets a "Plot Coin" on their sheet for attendance.

Maybe this deliberately meta- approach might help save your patience next time? It's literally an explicit manifestation of player buy-in for side quests. Seems silly, but somehow it sorta helps get players who bought their quest focused and attentive.

Nice to not have to use it, but I'm OK with being unimmersive and explicit at times, if I have to get people to stay focused.

Darth Ultron
2018-05-20, 10:38 AM
Then this is rectified. The OP just treats his players like sheep and tells them. Them being followers will think "He's right, planning is good, let's have a normal linear adventure". I mean they believe whatever they are being told. SIMPLE AS HELL. Problem solved, everyone can go home now because I just won the internet!

It is not the best way, but it will work to have a good game.



Tsk, tsk, Darth haven't we discussed this before? Your inability to improvise may lead to the game becoming a random mess. Me being the God of improvisers can run a perfectly fine campaign just by improvising. Improvising is nothing short of planning with a very very short notice. It's like you and me in a fight. Your inability to think on the spot will only lead to me kicking your butt. Me on the other hand will adapt to everything you throw at me and when I'm improvising you'll be like fish on dry land because your fightplan didn't survive contact with the enemy. Then afterward you'll try to explain to me how my fightplan was a random mess.

Improving is planning? Sure...so words have no meaning and anything is anything? Ok. So sure you um ''improvise'' a normal planned game.



Unless what? I'm kinda waiting in constipation for you to finish that sentence? What do we do if the player is too far gone? Electric shock therapy? Nipple clamps and a car battery until he sees the errors of his ways?

You just needed to scroll down a bit: it was Unless you tell the players it is a ''planned sandbox''.



You just throw some toys in(dungeons and stuff) and let the players have fun playing around. It isn't a analogy that is hard to grasp, for most people that have a brain at least. See, in there is the player rutting around, having fun with the things that GM put there.

Sure, so your great improv game is where the DM makes some random stuff...then leaves?

Pleh
2018-05-20, 12:12 PM
Maybe it's the "muddy objectives" that make the first game better. Finely detailed objectives can make players think it's a puzzle with a unique solution. Several branching paths all with fine detail can maje players feel overwhelmed like they need to fully understand every option to make an informed decision.

But with vague objectives, they might feel less pressure to optimize their strategy and pursue less formalized solutions to their challenges. Because YOU were winging it, THEY felt comfortable doing the same. Confronted with a well prepared challenge, they feel overwhelmed at devising a well prepared response, so they ask for fewer branches, expecting pressure to be relieved. But fewer branches without making them any looser in construction actually just makes the pressure increase.

Cosi
2018-05-20, 12:15 PM
The key to good DMing is not to plan too far in the future. Don't plan out an entire ten-level campaign. Instead, set up four or five immediate plot hooks with enough detail that you can develop whichever one the PCs take interest in. Then when the PCs run through a given hook, drop a couple more. Eventually, you'll have enough stuff to start having recurring villains or callbacks to previous adventures. That way you don't feel bad when the PCs decide not to follow up on the hook you spend a bunch of time on, but the campaign still has some structure.

Anonymouswizard
2018-05-20, 03:17 PM
Right, a ''planned sandbox'' is a normal planned game where everyone says and believes it is a ''sandbox''. Like you said, very often even the DM themselves even believes the ''planned sandbox'' idea.

Oh look, it's Darth Icannotunderstandanopposingviewpoint Ultron, Lord Supreme of the Game Masters' Association For Railroading Players Into Your Planned Story.

Well unfortunately for the GMFRPIYPS the Improv Loving Game Masters' Guild has come to make the case for a less railroaded game, although I see other members have beaten me to the punch.

In short, it seems like you may be better at improv than plotting. It's fine, many of us prefer to go in with the loosest plot ideas and try to weave a story around that. I royally suck at planning, therefore my games become terrible and linear whenever they enter a dungeon, but outside of one they can get an objective or mission and then I'll just sit back and let them deal with it. It's why I love urban games so much (and why so many of my better games cast the PCs as criminals or occasionally law enforcement), once you give somebody an objective there's a ton of options as to what to do to complete that objective, from scouting locations to asking people questions to buying equipment to raiding the local police station for their files to asking city hall for building plans. Is the game 'plotted'? Sure, in that I have an idea for an objective and will use how this session turns out to come up with the next one. I once played a session which was the GM improvising enough of a mine so he could spring a big monster on us and have us either run for our lives or come up with a plan to defeat it. It was honestly more awesome than many plotted sessions I've had, he quickly established that it was going to be dangerous, so we moved ahead cautiously and gave him enough time to come up with the next bit of the dungeon.

kyoryu
2018-05-20, 06:12 PM
With a preplanned campaign, you're writing the things you think are cool.

With a more improvised campaign (regardless of how much prep you do first), you're incorporating a lot more of what the players think is cool.

Mike Miller
2018-05-20, 08:48 PM
Unless what? I'm kinda waiting in constipation for you to finish that sentence?

Emphasis mine (thank you auto-correct)

Darth Ultron
2018-05-20, 10:04 PM
In short, it seems like you may be better at improv than plotting.

I'm defiantly plotting and planning and such.


With a preplanned campaign, you're writing the things you think are cool.

With a more improvised campaign (regardless of how much prep you do first), you're incorporating a lot more of what the players think is cool.

Odd....so why can't a DM do a preplanned campaign that the players think is cool?

Keltest
2018-05-20, 10:12 PM
Odd....so why can't a DM do a preplanned campaign that the players think is cool?

Past a certain point, they aren't players at all. Theyre just extra sets of limbs to roll the dice for the DM, and people listening to the DM narrate a story. And if you like story time as a group, that's not necessarily a bad thing, but its not really playing a game either, and there are more straightforward ways to go about it with less work.

hydraphantom
2018-05-21, 02:10 AM
There's a middle path between complete improv/no prep and a no-choice linear plot.
You should be prepared with maps of places the PCs will be and might go and enemies they might fight and charts and tables to help you decide what happens when nothing specific is planned or they go off the map you have ready.

They should have clear goals, but the sort that lets the players decide how to pursue them (more general/open goals), not the sort that are dictated by a series of events that you impose on them or that have only one path to pursue. Clear goals should reduce the paralysis of having too many options with no real way to decide between them. Open ended goals means they aren't locked into just one course of actions and events.

Thanks, I have to admit I really made the campaign a bit too linear...