Storm Herald bbn really so terrible?

[Waazraath]

To be honest, when I was going through Xanathar's it was one of the less inspiring subclasses to me, at least mechanically. The fact that you couldn't switch between the three types unless leveling made it worse.

But I was just thinking: that level 3 tundra ability, couldn't it be quite ok? At least, presuming that there is a party with several melee characters, fighting close together, and all taking a bit of damage every turn, giving all of them a few extra hp, every turn, in several combats, can add up to quite a lot of prevented damage, couldn't it?

As for the other tundra abilities: lvl 6 gives cold resistance (boring, but ok), and level 14 gives you the option to immobiliza a foe, without spending an (additional) action or bonus action. That's quite nice.

Of course, having to spend a bonus action every round prevents using feats like PAM, and lessens the effect of a feat like GWM, but that extra +2 str or con is nice as well.

Worth it in a melee heavy party, or still 'meh'?

[Dyndrilliac]

I still think it's meh, but I have to add that it's primarily because I haven't seen one in play. I'm currently playing a Zealot barbarian, and the only other person I've seen play one of the Barbarian archetypes from Xanathar's went Ancients. So I'm hesitant to judge until I actually see one in play. I might give the Storm Herald a shot sometime in the not-to-distant future, but I'm probably not going to want to play another Barbarian immediately after my Zealot retires. I still want to play a Githzerai Kensei, so maybe after that I'll roll a Storm Herald. If rage didn't tank spellcasting, I'd be tempted to MC my Storm Sorcerer into a Storm Herald, but it does so that's a hard pass.

[mephnick]

The aura ability isn't good enough to warrant a bonus action in my opinion, otherwise it's...ok.

I think they should have made it more elemental like you say and allow all 3 "storms" available on one character.

[Waazraath]

The aura ability isn't good enough to warrant a bonus action in my opinion, otherwise it's...ok.


So... maybe it's worth it in a featless game (without easy access to abilities that can be used with a bonus action), with several melee characters, and there is no other source of temporary hitpoints (like a glamour bard), it can be good?

[Ganymede]

So... maybe it's worth it in a featless game (without easy access to abilities that can be used with a bonus action), with several melee characters, and there is no other source of temporary hitpoints (like a glamour bard), it can be good?

Well, this just means that Storm Heralds don't need to bother taking Great Weapon Mastery because they already have something to do with their bonus action; they can take something else instead.

But yeah, Storm Heralds are like Zealots that need to sacrifice their bonus action to get their extra damage. It is a bummer.

[Naanomi]

Though at least they can do it on the first round when they Rage (unlike many other Barbarian bonus action abilities)

[Ganymede]

Though at least they can do it on the first round when they Rage (unlike many other Barbarian bonus action abilities)

It's really only the Eagle Totem's free dash and the Berserker's frenzy attack. All the other Barbarians, including the Zealot and Ancestral Guardian from the same book, do not need bonus actions. (Of the level 3 abilities, anyways.)

[Naanomi]

It's really only the Eagle Totem's free dash and the Berserker's frenzy attack. All the other Barbarians, including the Zealot and Ancestral Guardian from the same book, do not need bonus actions. (Of the level 3 abilities, anyways.)
Two of the Battlerager abilities as well; and both Elk and Tiger Totemic Attunement

[Ganymede]

SCAG doesn't count, ever.

[strangebloke]

I think that the issue is less that it's bad and more than it's underwhelming.

You're summoning primal storms with your rage! That should be awesome! Instead it's... slightly weaker than most barbarian subclasses.

[Naanomi]

SCAG doesn't count, ever.
Really? Melee cantrips? Long-Death Monk?

Whisper Halfling? Feral and/or Winged Tiefling? Even variant Half-Elf has some use...

Svirfneblin? Swashbuckler?

Definetly a mixed bag, but not wholly dismissible

[Ganymede]

Really? Melee cantrips? Long-Death Monk?

Whisper Halfling? Feral and/or Winged Tiefling? Even variant Half-Elf has some use...

Svirfneblin? Swashbuckler?

Definetly a mixed bag, but not wholly dismissible

Well the book has some fun lore, so there's that.

[JakOfAllTirades]

I think that the issue is less that it's bad and more than it's underwhelming.

You're summoning primal storms with your rage! That should be awesome! Instead it's... slightly weaker than most barbarian subclasses.

That was my impression as well: the archetype is simply underpowered compared to the other Barbarian types. It looks like the kid who used to get bullied on the playground in Barbarian school. The Berserker game him a black eye, the Zealot kicked him in the shins, and that Totem kid got his lunch money!

[Citan]

To be honest, when I was going through Xanathar's it was one of the less inspiring subclasses to me, at least mechanically. The fact that you couldn't switch between the three types unless leveling made it worse.

But I was just thinking: that level 3 tundra ability, couldn't it be quite ok? At least, presuming that there is a party with several melee characters, fighting close together, and all taking a bit of damage every turn, giving all of them a few extra hp, every turn, in several combats, can add up to quite a lot of prevented damage, couldn't it?

As for the other tundra abilities: lvl 6 gives cold resistance (boring, but ok), and level 14 gives you the option to immobiliza a foe, without spending an (additional) action or bonus action. That's quite nice.

Of course, having to spend a bonus action every round prevents using feats like PAM, and lessens the effect of a feat like GWM, but that extra +2 str or con is nice as well.

Worth it in a melee heavy party, or still 'meh'?
Hi.
Honestly, I don't even understand when that initial statement of Storm Herald being terrible comes from...

I guess it's from a purely "damage-dealing" point of view, as often on these forums. :)
It's an narrow view of it though. Sure, it you compare it to a Bear (or any other) Barbarian with GWM yeah it may seem lackluster.

But it's actually not. Not at all.
First, let's remind that apart from Frenzy (IIRC), Barbarians get no bonus action except activating rage.
Enter Storm Herald: improvement of resource management, no more waste.

Second, let's compare a SH Barbarian that wants to improve damage compared to feats.
- GWM: yeah, you won't compete with this one, but bonus action is only when you get a critical. On that bonus action, you'd unleash full power so 2d6+2-4+3-7, so much more than 12 (I don't count the extra 10 because of the -5 malus).
- Polearm Master: Barb would make a weapon attack with +2-4 bonus and +3-7 STR but 1d4 die: so overall around 10 damage most of its life, starting with 7 and peaking at 15.

Compare with Sea: bonus action every turn, dealing lightning damage (no physical resistance problem) on a Dexterity saving throw (so even against high AC targets you have some good chance of at least dealing some damage), with average 3.5/7/11.5/15 and peak 24.
Yeah, you read well, that Barbarian that would otherwise do exactly the same thing as other Barbarians would deal better damage on its turn than a PAM one (although the latter gets improved chance of SA, this Barb can take Sentinel instead to also improve chance) and more or less the same as a GWM one except when the latter can use the extra damage consistently (in which case SH is beaten) or when the latter faces high AC target (in which case SH wins).

Let's now speak of resistances: yeah, SH is far far behind Bear on that one. And the fact it's set directly by your aura, so you choose one resistance for several levels is a bit annoying. But it's not like it's uncommon: Draconic Sorcerer gets it for life for example. ^^
More importantly, the fact you share it with friends mean that whenever you know you risk facing that kind of elemental damage, instead of having a caster friend spending precious concentration on Protection VS Energy (provided he knows it), you'll just work together so you can move towards the frail allies in one round if needed. Or just help your main frontliner friend to sustain AOE.

And the level 14 features are all nasty, provided either a big lump of damage or soft control features for a small cost, with Sea being imo a bit over the others because it mix damage and control.

The thing is, all these features require much more tactical finesse than the usual Barbarian: for resistance sharing to be efficient, you have to be near friends, while also being careful to not form crowds that would "attracts" even more AOE.
THP features is worth only if the party manages to distribute damage more or less evenly, which is not at all a given either.
Auto-damage feature means you will try to aggro as many enemies as possible, but you also want to survive. ^^
And lvl 14 features using reaction force you to make a choice between that and OA.

So, I'd say how good this archetype is depends heavily on party composition and players collaboration, and also in part on the kind of campaign you'll play. That would be my main reason in pushing it aside in favor of a more "self-contained" archetype such as Totem or Zealot.

[strangebloke]

That was my impression as well: the archetype is simply underpowered compared to the other Barbarian types. It looks like the kid who used to get bullied on the playground in Barbarian school. The Berserker game him a black eye, the Zealot kicked him in the shins, and that Totem kid got his lunch money!

I only think it's slightly weaker.

Clean action economy, effects at range, and buffs to the party are all good things.

But nothing in the entry actually feels like a storm. The effects feel anemic compared to other, similar storm related effects.

I imagine less a whirling tempest around our storm herald, and more a slight crackle of wind and lightning.

Still cool, but not what it was billed as.

[Tetrasodium]

I have a player with a tundra storm herald & it seems pretty decent, the temp-hp spammage to everyone within 10 feet often makes a big difference in a fight.
edit: Potentially relevant, the player has an aberrant dragonmark. the spells on it (firebolt/fire refluffed magic missile/flaming shorter range cloud of daggers) are almost never used for obvious reasons, The greatsword dragonmark focus item that does an extra d6 of fire damage is nothing to sneeze at either but hardly crazy powered.

[Citan]

I only think it's slightly weaker.

Clean action economy, effects at range, and buffs to the party are all good things.

But nothing in the entry actually feels like a storm. The effects feel anemic compared to other, similar storm related effects.

I imagine less a whirling tempest around our storm herald, and more a slight crackle of wind and lightning.

Still cool, but not what it was billed as.
Very true. I didn't think about that, but indeed it feels strange to be called a Storm Herald and then just do "puny" effects. XD

Then again, considering the base fluff of the class, being a purely martial and rage converted into raw power thing, I don't know how they could stack features that mimick something like even a Fog Cloud or Shatter (well, actually this one could work if centered on self, fluffed as a War Cry, but that's the only one I see).

Just being able to share aura is strange. Although I never got my hands on the full book, so maybe it's explained in the related fluff?

[mephnick]

I think it was a really misplaced subclass in the first place. The fluff and mechanics just don't meet. It should have been a druid subclass or a cleric subclass...oh wait we have that already.

[Tetrasodium]

I think it was a really misplaced subclass in the first place. The fluff and mechanics just don't meet. It should have been a druid subclass or a cleric subclass...oh wait we have that already.

It fits perfectly because there is not much lore or fluff to it.

Sure it might be odd in faerun, but the baselines of faerun do not apply to every setting & other settings have their own stuff going on. Darksun is a world ravaged by all kinds of arcane & planar energies. storm herald taps into/channels some of those in their rage. Eberron is wide magic & any number of custom minor magic items could justify it; alternately eberron has various planar states & manifest zones(ie pretty much the stuff you are trying to stop in pota) not to mention all sorts of other stuff like magebreeding & dragonmarks.

tThe storm herald doesn't say "you are a warrior of a martial/elemental/whatever god" like you seem to want; nor does it say explicitly any of the example fluffings for other settings I noted. Being that xge is supposed to be setting neutral (it does a good job of that), it would be silly to explicitly fluff storm herald too deeply to any one setting. You are complaining that none of us need to strip the lore of another setting before we can insert the lore of our settings to fluff as desired.

[strangebloke]

I think it was a really misplaced subclass in the first place. The fluff and mechanics just don't meet. It should have been a druid subclass or a cleric subclass...oh wait we have that already.

I would love to play a druid who can use Wilshape to turn into a storm....

And then multiclass into barbarian.

Barbarian subclasses just don't have enough space for this kind of concept.

[Tetrasodium]

I would love to play a druid who can use Wilshape to turn into a storm....

And then multiclass into barbarian.

Barbarian subclasses just don't have enough space for this kind of concept.


That would be wizard & it kinda exists from 3.5 (http://eberron.wikia.com/wiki/Spell_Sovereign):smallbiggrin: If we could stop with the all faerun all the time madness, it might come back

[mephnick]

tThe storm herald doesn't say "you are a warrior of a martial/elemental/whatever god" like you seem to want.

I want classes that are designed well with mechanics that back a sensible and thematic concept. Also I haven't run a game in FR in roughly 15 years so I'm not sure what that has to do with what I said.

[Tetrasodium]

I want classes that are designed well with mechanics that back a sensible and thematic concept. Also I haven't run a game in FR in roughly 15 years so I'm not sure what that has to do with what I said.

it is designed well with sensible mechanics for a barbarian archtype, you are just griping that it's not fluffed to fearun's baselines or a cleric/druid

[mephnick]

I never mentioned Faerun, and never use it, so I'm not sure why you're trying to work that chip off your shoulder on me. Save it for the next book release thread. The mechanics are underwhelming and I dont think there's enough design space in the barbarian to fit the fluff in. I think it would work better on a class like a druid, that's all.

[Tetrasodium]

I never mentioned Faerun, and never use it, so I'm not sure why you're trying to work that chip off your shoulder on me. Save it for the next book release thread. The mechanics are underwhelming and I dont think there's enough design space in the barbarian to fit the fluff in. I think it would work better on a class like a druid, that's all.

You keep saying that, but the only other bonus action barbarian has before storm herald starts lighting up is activating rage... maybe drink a potion. Multiple people in this thread have pointed out how it's pretty good. The "fluff" you are complaining about fits just fine too, don't whine because you would have rather it been something else.

All barbarians harbor a fury within. Their rage grantsthem superior strength, durability, and speed. Barbarians who follow the Path of the Storm Herald learn to transform that rage into a mantle of primal magic, which swirls around them. When in a fury, a barbarian of this path taps into the forces of nature to create powerful magical effects.
Storm heralds are typically elite champions Who train alongside druids, rangers, and others sworn to protect nature. Other storm heralds hone their craft in lodges in regions wracked by storms, in the frozen reaches at the world’s end, or deep in the hottest deserts.

are the various druidic/ranger/etc orders so xenophobic that theydon't work with people better suited to a slightly/radically different specialization of the primal forces they use that they are the only two classes that must only work with others instead of opthers working with them?... well....... I guess there is one setting where they are more concerned with purity than like minded ideals & such.

[Jerrykhor]

Its freaking terrible. Low numbers (some of them static), especially damage, is the main reason. Poor scaling (only +1 per tier) is another. I mean come on, have you seen the HP on monsters you encounter at Level 15? 5 fire damage is downright pathetic. Also, friendly fire if following RAW. Just to emphasize how lame Desert is, setting things on fire by touching it is incredibly lame fluff. You might be able to wow a crowd in a tiny village, beyond that... just use a torch?

Then there's the final nail in the coffin, when the Level 14 features are just a worse version of the PHB options. Only Tundra's one is unique, but its not very impressive either.

I also don't like the bonus action hog on the weak auras. Having to actively maintain something doesn't feel like an aura. Aura's are the effect of someone's mere presence, at most it should only require bonus action or action for activation.

[Tetrasodium]

Its freaking terrible. Low numbers (some of them static), especially damage, is the main reason. Poor scaling (only +1 per tier) is another. I mean come on, have you seen the HP on monsters you encounter at Level 15? 5 fire damage is downright pathetic. Also, friendly fire if following RAW. Just to emphasize how lame Desert is, setting things on fire by touching it is incredibly lame fluff. You might be able to wow a crowd in a tiny village, beyond that... just use a torch?

Then there's the final nail in the coffin, when the Level 14 features are just a worse version of the PHB options. Only Tundra's one is unique, but its not very impressive either.

I also don't like the bonus action hog on the weak auras. Having to actively maintain something doesn't feel like an aura. Aura's are the effect of someone's mere presence, at most it should only require bonus action or action for activation.

serious question: as a barbarian, what else are you going to do with your bonus action once you start your rage?

[Jerrykhor]

serious question: as a barbarian, what else are you going to do with your bonus action once you start your rage?

Just because the base barbarian chassis don't have much use for Bonus action, doesn't mean one feature should hog all of it. Plus, there's always multi-classing. I'm sure I can find plenty of alternative uses for my bonus action through feats, magic items and such.

[Mith]

Thoughts on Fire damage: does it work on most Regenerative monsters, allowing for a Desert Storm to suppress the feature and take down the creature faster?

[Potato_Priest]

Is it so terrible? No, it’s not. It’s still a barbarian, the class that can make fighters weep with envy.

Is it so terrible compared to other barbarian subclasses? Absolutely. The extremely minor offensive abilities are no match for the defensive abilities of the other subclasses.

[Chaosmancer]

Is it so terrible? No, it’s not. It’s still a barbarian, the class that can make fighters weep with envy.

Is it so terrible compared to other barbarian subclasses? Absolutely. The extremely minor offensive abilities are no match for the defensive abilities of the other subclasses.

I think that's the big thing for me, most barbarians are either defensive focused or building for other options.

For example, Ancestral Spirits at 15 will use a reaction to prevent 3d6 damage and deal 3d6 damage. That feels really impressive to me.

Zealot, i think, uses their bonus action to activate their extra damage which is 1/2 level plus something? It changed from the aura I remember that.

It just feels underwhelming to have a bonus action 5 damage at that high of a level. I'm sure the math works that it isn't that bad, but it doesn't feel good when you read it

[Mith]

I think that's the big thing for me, most barbarians are either defensive focused or building for other options.

For example, Ancestral Spirits at 15 will use a reaction to prevent 3d6 damage and deal 3d6 damage. That feels really impressive to me.

Zealot, i think, uses their bonus action to activate their extra damage which is 1/2 level plus something? It changed from the aura I remember that.

It just feels underwhelming to have a bonus action 5 damage at that high of a level. I'm sure the math works that it isn't that bad, but it doesn't feel good when you read it

If the first two are targeted attacks, then an ongoing 5 damage can clear a crowd of lesser creatures while you focus on a bigger threat.

[Jerrykhor]

If the first two are targeted attacks, then an ongoing 5 damage can clear a crowd of lesser creatures while you focus on a bigger threat.

YMMV, but most of the time, even lesser creatures by that level have loads of HP. 5 damage is just so insignificant.

[Mith]

YMMV, but most of the time, even lesser creatures by that level have loads of HP. 5 damage is just so insignificant.

Agreed. I think the reasoning is due to the fact that an aura that did 10+ damage could keep the barbarian from being threatened by the low level minion horde, as they would just burn up.

Then again, 10 damage would work well to just counter any fast healing monsters you are currently wailing on for the most part.

[Chaosmancer]

If the first two are targeted attacks, then an ongoing 5 damage can clear a crowd of lesser creatures while you focus on a bigger threat.

Yeah, it can help,but by that level there are so many other character builds and options that can do far better clearing minions.

And again, I'm sure the math is fine and comparable. Perhaps even better when it can hit +4 creatures. But it feels underwhelming to read, and that is a bigger problem I think.

Also for completeness the sea aura is also 3d6, dex save half, for a single creature.

And the zealot is not a bonus action, but is 1d6 + half level.

And thinking on it do to the question of "what do barbarians do with a bonus action" I'm kind of wondering why I don't hear about more dual-weilding barbarians. Losing your str mod if you don't dip fighter is rough, but reckless, brutal crits, and rage damage could make it an incredibly effective hit nonetheless. Plus bonus ac from the feat.

I kind of want to do a dual-weilding half-orc zealot now and crit fish for fun and profit.

[CircleOfTheRock]

SCAG doesn't count, ever.
Do you have some kind of hatred towards gishes?

[Tanarii]

And thinking on it do to the question of "what do barbarians do with a bonus action" I'm kind of wondering why I don't hear about more dual-weilding barbarians. Losing your str mod if you don't dip fighter is rough, but reckless, brutal crits, and rage damage could make it an incredibly effective hit nonetheless. Plus bonus ac from the feat.
Because Extra Attack, Brutal critical, and if available GWM.

[PeteNutButter]

I'm going to be a bit contrary and say it's not that bad, specifically tundra.

I think people are wary of how low the numbers are, and rightfully so, but if you keep in mind that the raging barbarian will be taking half damage for the majority of attacks, that effectively doubles those numbers.

So at level 5, tier 2 where we see the bulk of play, that Tundra barb is getting 3 THP every round which is effectively preventing 6 damage (if physical) each round. So in an average fight that lasts 4 rounds he is saving himself a total of 24 hp, expecting to get hit every round, since he is a barb. We can assume that he is also helping some teammates, saving maybe another 12 for them. That's a reasonable estimate of 36 hp per rage. It's not going to help against the big bursts of damage, but it's saving a good chunk of resources each fight. If he has 3 rages and uses them all for 4 rounds of fighting the Tundra barb is saving the party ~108 damage over the course of the day. That is almost double a 5th level barbs max hp.

Think of it like a version of heavy armor master that only works on one attack a round (ew!) uses your bonus action every round (super EW!) but works on all damage types (yay!) and extends to your teammates (super yay!). If anyone else on your team can make THP, it's god awful, but as is the Tundra barb might be harder to kill than most other barbs. His level 14 feature is also a nice control feature, although it is a strength save.

Then again after all that praise of THP on barbarians, one might realize that a battlerager at level 6 gets the same or more (3-4) THP every time he reckless attacks while still using his bonus action to poke someone. :smallmad: At least the Tundra barb's THP last longer?

[Naanomi]

Battlerager is saddled with a not insignificant AC penalty to use most of its features, leaving tundra as a tanker package overall

[Tetrasodium]

I'm going to be a bit contrary and say it's not that bad, specifically tundra.

I think people are wary of how low the numbers are, and rightfully so, but if you keep in mind that the raging barbarian will be taking half damage for the majority of attacks, that effectively doubles those numbers.

So at level 5, tier 2 where we see the bulk of play, that Tundra barb is getting 3 THP every round which is effectively preventing 6 damage (if non-magical physical) each round. So in an average fight that lasts 4 rounds he is saving himself a total of 24 hp, expecting to get hit every round, since he is a barb. We can assume that he is also helping some teammates, saving maybe another 12 for them. That's a reasonable estimate of 36 hp per rage. It's not going to help against the big bursts of damage, but it's saving a good chunk of resources each fight. If he has 3 rages and uses them all for 4 rounds of fighting the Tundra barb is saving the party ~108 damage over the course of the day. That is almost double a 5th level barbs max hp.

Think of it like a version of heavy armor master that only works on one attack a round (ew!) uses your bonus action every round (super EW!) but works on all damage types (yay!) and extends to your teammates (super yay!). If anyone else on your team can make THP, it's god awful, but as is the Tundra barb might be harder to kill than most other barbs. His level 14 feature is also a nice control feature, although it is a strength save.

Then again after all that praise of THP on barbarians, one might realize that a battlerager at level 6 gets the same or more (3-4) THP every time he reckless attacks while still using his bonus action to poke someone. :smallmad: At least the Tundra barb's THP last longer?

Since one of my players is one, I'll say that it's even better than you describe. It's not just the barbarian, it's everyone he chooses within 10 feet of him. There is a very good chance that will cover any of the other frontline types.

[PeteNutButter]

Since one of my players is one, I'll say that it's even better than you describe. It's not just the barbarian, it's everyone he chooses within 10 feet of him. There is a very good chance that will cover any of the other frontline types.

Nice. I have an AL player that I talked into changing into it, just before level 5, mostly because we both wanted to see it in action. There is another barb in the party usually, so I'll be excited to see it in action on not one but two raging barbarians, as well as potentially the fighter and maybe even the cleric.

[Naanomi]

AoE temp HP is especially effective against enemy AoE attacks

[Chaosmancer]

Because Extra Attack, Brutal critical, and if available GWM.

Ok, I get GWM as a reason. It kind of over-shadows everything else.

But why would brutal crit or extra attack mean less dual-weilding? Getting 3 attacks instead of 2 is good and you can crit while dual-weilding.

GWM is a 500 lb gorilla, but when I started thinking about dual-weilding i realized it has some good synergy with the barbarian and that I'd never even heard it mentioned

[Tanarii]

Ok, I get GWM as a reason. It kind of over-shadows everything else.

But why would brutal crit or extra attack mean less dual-weilding? Getting 3 attacks instead of 2 is good and you can crit while dual-weilding.
2 attacks at 1d12+3 > 2 attacks at 1d6+3 plus one at 1d6.

Brutal critical works better with big dice too, in combination with extra attack.

TWF with 2 hand axes is actually superior for a Raging Barbarian before they get Extra Attack.

[Sigreid]

It occurs to me that if your party has more than 1 character with an AOE damage aura that could add up really fast.

[strangebloke]

It occurs to me that if your party has more than 1 character with an AOE damage aura that could add up really fast.

Even better:

Law domain cleric
Conquest Paladin
Storm herald

Everyone is prone, frightened, locked in place and taking damage.

[Contrast]

So at level 5, tier 2 where we see the bulk of play, that Tundra barb is getting 3 THP every round which is effectively preventing 6 damage (if non-magical physical) each round.

Just to note, the barbarian rage does not have the caveat that magic bypasses it. They get resistance to all physical damage, no matter the source (including magic weapons or spells that do physical damage like Meteor Storm).

[PeteNutButter]

Just to note, the barbarian rage does not have the caveat that magic bypasses it. They get resistance to all physical damage, no matter the source (including magic weapons or spells that do physical damage like Meteor Storm).

Fair point. It's HAM that has the magical requirement to bypass. Thanks.

[Vogie]

The fact that you couldn't switch between the three types unless leveling made it worse.

Maybe rule that it could be switch between types each time you go into a rage? I think that'd be an interesting change and line it up thematically with other types.

I do think that there should be a single Barbarian path that allows minor semblance of spellcasting, such as the ability to hold concentration through a rage.

[Sigreid]

Maybe rule that it could be switch between types each time you go into a rage? I think that'd be an interesting change and line it up thematically with other types.

I do think that there should be a single Barbarian path that allows minor semblance of spellcasting, such as the ability to hold concentration through a rage.

That would make a neat boon. Something earned through trials or whatever.

[GlenSmash!]

I find it uninspiring, but I think Tundra works pretty well as has been pointed out.

Still If I want to play a "Storm Herald" even Tundra doesn't quite match my expectations.

[Citan]

Its freaking terrible. Low numbers (some of them static), especially damage, is the main reason. Poor scaling (only +1 per tier) is another. I mean come on, have you seen the HP on monsters you encounter at Level 15? 5 fire damage is downright pathetic. Also, friendly fire if following RAW. Just to emphasize how lame Desert is, setting things on fire by touching it is incredibly lame fluff. You might be able to wow a crowd in a tiny village, beyond that... just use a torch?

Then there's the final nail in the coffin, when the Level 14 features are just a worse version of the PHB options. Only Tundra's one is unique, but its not very impressive either.

I also don't like the bonus action hog on the weak auras. Having to actively maintain something doesn't feel like an aura. Aura's are the effect of someone's mere presence, at most it should only require bonus action or action for activation.
I understand that you wouldn't like the fact you use a bonus action to maintain an "aura", seeing that all the abilities that had "aura" in name so far where cast/use and forget.

Besides that? "It's freaking terrible" just stress your view of Barbarian as a lone warrior is all, maybe because you play it like a lone warrior, or you are used to be the only frontliner and do not manage to aggro as you want...

1. Tundra
THP seems weak, and it is indeed turn by turn, but it's not like you'd have other use for your bonus action anyways (if you chose this archetype and subchoice in the first place, it's because you want to support the party, not just deal damage).
Alone, this amount to 30 THP per rage at level 5th.
Level 5 Barbarian should have on average 15+40 = 55 HP. You're giving at least yourself 1/2 more effective HP, even if the rage does not last one minute, because of your damage reduction.
You have anyone with you, like a Rogue or Fighter? Provided a 5 rounds fight, you may give them up to 1/3 effective more HP.
Yeah, for this reasoning to be true, everyone has to get hit at least once.
Well, I don't know of your games, but in mine, whether or not a PC tries to aggro or enemies play CoW, everyone usually takes *some* damage every turn (between hazards, archers, squishies, casters...).
At least you are sure those THP will be 100% consumed each and every time you give them.

It's the same lack of thinking that make people spit on Heavy Armor Master. Yet it's still worth having at least until level 11 ime. This feature ends with better amount, permanently (because unlimited rage at level 20), and shared with a reasonable expectation of one more people, and up to 4.

AND, every turn, you can also deprive one creature of movement. Yeah, many creatures are decent against Strength saving throw, but hey, it's a free effect, so it's not like there is any opportunity cost here.

2. Desert
Yeah, damage is too low overall to be useful on a regular basis.
Still, if you make the maths, with just an expectation of three enemies around Barbarian which does not seem unreasonable to me (YMMV), damage is on part with a weapon attack. Because it's dispersed it's less effective than one weapon attack against one enemy, but I think it had to be noted. :)
IMO though, the main reason to grab it is the shared fire resistance, with the permanent damage and reaction damage being accessories. After all, fire damage is the most common that you can face after physical damage.

3. Sea
Damage is completely on part with an additional weapon attack, except better because it's a Dexterity saving throw (so another tool against high AC targets which are Barbarian's limit even with advantage) and it adds a prone rider on top as an option.

In short, as long as you play with a pal that can use those features (no-Bear Barbarian) it's very worth if you tag-team correctly. The more the merrier and better obviously.

[Ganymede]

2. Desert
Yeah, damage is too low overall to be useful on a regular basis.
Still, if you make the maths, with just an expectation of three enemies around Barbarian which does not seem unreasonable to me (YMMV), damage is on part with a weapon attack. Because it's dispersed it's less effective than one weapon attack against one enemy, but I think it had to be noted. :)
IMO though, the main reason to grab it is the shared fire resistance, with the permanent damage and reaction damage being accessories. After all, fire damage is the most common that you can face after physical damage.


It is worth pointing out that activating the Desert aura inflicts damage on your allies as well as your enemies; if you want to benefit from both the offensive and defensive features of your aura, you have to be OK with harming your friends. Granted, this damage isn't much after your shared resistance, but it is still worth noting.

[PeteNutButter]

It is worth pointing out that activating the Desert aura inflicts damage on your allies as well as your enemies; if you want to benefit from both the offensive and defensive features of your aura, you have to be OK with harming your friends. Granted, this damage isn't much after your shared resistance, but it is still worth noting.

They have the resistance while within the aura, but you can activate it when you are further away, then step back into range. It might require some clever positioning at times, or an OA if needed. Even so they'll have resistant to such a small amount of damage, it's probably not a big deal.

[Contrast]

It is worth pointing out that activating the Desert aura inflicts damage on your allies as well as your enemies; if you want to benefit from both the offensive and defensive features of your aura, you have to be OK with harming your friends. Granted, this damage isn't much after your shared resistance, but it is still worth noting.

This is actual my main problem with the sea and desert. I think the ability would actually be better if the range was only 5ft rather than 10 as it would make managing friendly fire much easier.

[Mith]

Maybe rule that it could be switch between types each time you go into a rage? I think that'd be an interesting change and line it up thematically with other types.

I do think that there should be a single Barbarian path that allows minor semblance of spellcasting, such as the ability to hold concentration through a rage.

Stealing this idea to have "vision quest" adventures for any Storm Heralds.

The way I would run this is that Storm Heralds essentially channel and master elemental spirits with their rage, and can take on the aspects of the environment corresponding to the element: Desert (Fire), Sea (Air? weird. Works for my rough cosmology but maybe not for others), Tundra (Water/Ice), with the need for an Earthquake based Herald for rounding out the classic elements.



EARTHSHAKER

The nature of this spirit path is to disrupt, slow, and bind enemies in contact with the earth

Storm Aura: Earth tremors cause all creatures within 10' to treat the terrain as difficult terrain, halving their movement speed

Storm Soul:You ignore difficult terrain so long as you are in contact with the earth. You gain a burrowing speed of 30'.

Raging Storm:Choose one target within the effect of your aura. That creature is targeted by the effects of Maxmillian's Earthen Grasp for the duration of your aura's effect, or if they succeed on a Strength Saving Throw.

The only problem I really have with this idea is the fact that Earthen Grasp is a Concentration effect for casters, where it isn't really that for Barbarians.

A vision quest has the barbarian drawing out elemental spirits to bind and to grow stronger with, and the stronger the Herald, the stronger the spirit that is brought forth.

This won't be the full "Rage Mage", but I think it would work.

As far as bonus action use, I would say that that is the replacement for the Concentration mechanic, so if you need to drop the aura to focus on pressing the kill due to GWM, that works fine. From what I can tell PAM isn't needed for this subclass as much as it could be used for the other non-Frenzy subclasses.

[Chaosmancer]

2 attacks at 1d12+3 > 2 attacks at 1d6+3 plus one at 1d6.

Brutal critical works better with big dice too, in combination with extra attack.

TWF with 2 hand axes is actually superior for a Raging Barbarian before they get Extra Attack.

I don't mean to harp on this, but your analysis doesn't fully cover what I was talking about.

If you are dual-weilding and getting the bonus AC from the feat, then you also have access to 1d8 weapons.

The average difference (I've been told) for damage dice is 1 pt per level, so 2d12 will average 4 pts higher than 2d8, but that should be made up by the 1d8 bonus plus rage damage you would get.

Then, with 3 attacks instead of 2 you have a higher chance to crit, and more consist damage because missing one attack is closer to 1/3 your average instead of 1/2.

Granted, brutal crits with bigger dice will pull away a little more, but I wonder if the increased odds compensate.

Also, GWM just blows the curve up, driving the single weapon way out ahead, but I don't think it makes Dual-Weilding battleaxes or warhammers a terrible second choice.

[PeteNutButter]

I don't mean to harp on this, but your analysis doesn't fully cover what I was talking about.

If you are dual-weilding and getting the bonus AC from the feat, then you also have access to 1d8 weapons.

The average difference (I've been told) for damage dice is 1 pt per level, so 2d12 will average 4 pts higher than 2d8, but that should be made up by the 1d8 bonus plus rage damage you would get.

Then, with 3 attacks instead of 2 you have a higher chance to crit, and more consist damage because missing one attack is closer to 1/3 your average instead of 1/2.

Granted, brutal crits with bigger dice will pull away a little more, but I wonder if the increased odds compensate.

Also, GWM just blows the curve up, driving the single weapon way out ahead, but I don't think it makes Dual-Weilding battleaxes or warhammers a terrible second choice.

Or you could just use PAM and do more damage and use GWM. Or use PAM with staff and shield for more damage and more AC than TWF. PAM completely nullifies TWF for str builds.

[Vogie]

Stealing this idea to have "vision quest" adventures for any Storm Heralds.

The way I would run this is that Storm Heralds essentially channel and master elemental spirits with their rage, and can take on the aspects of the environment corresponding to the element: Desert (Fire), Sea (Air? weird. Works for my rough cosmology but maybe not for others), Tundra (Water/Ice), with the need for an Earthquake based Herald for rounding out the classic elements.



EARTHSHAKER

The nature of this spirit path is to disrupt, slow, and bind enemies in contact with the earth

Storm Aura: Earth tremors cause all creatures within 10' to treat the terrain as difficult terrain, halving their movement speed

Storm Soul:You ignore difficult terrain so long as you are in contact with the earth. You gain a burrowing speed of 30'.

Raging Storm:Choose one target within the effect of your aura. That creature is targeted by the effects of Maxmillian's Earthen Grasp for the duration of your aura's effect, or if they succeed on a Strength Saving Throw.

The only problem I really have with this idea is the fact that Earthen Grasp is a Concentration effect for casters, where it isn't really that for Barbarians.

A vision quest has the barbarian drawing out elemental spirits to bind and to grow stronger with, and the stronger the Herald, the stronger the spirit that is brought forth.

This won't be the full "Rage Mage", but I think it would work.

As far as bonus action use, I would say that that is the replacement for the Concentration mechanic, so if you need to drop the aura to focus on pressing the kill due to GWM, that works fine. From what I can tell PAM isn't needed for this subclass as much as it could be used for the other non-Frenzy subclasses.

I like the idea - Maybe you could have it so that the concentration is tied to the rage (... concent-rage-tion?)so the class still has to do all of the things required to keep raging to keep the effects going.

The ability to use Control Weather while raging would be really cool as a Storm Herald thing

[Tanarii]

I don't mean to harp on this, but your analysis doesn't fully cover what I was talking about.

If you are dual-weilding and getting the bonus AC from the feat, then you also have access to 1d8 weapons. If a Feat enhancing the fighting style is involved, the PAM or GWM need to be in the comparison too.

[Chaosmancer]

If a Feat enhancing the fighting style is involved, the PAM or GWM need to be in the comparison too.

Yes, I get that.

But just because GWM master is "MOAR AWESOME ALL THE TIME OH MY LORD IT EVEN SLICES BREAD" doesn't invalidate what I started out wondering.

A lot of people are sick of GWM, but even in threads about "I don't want to take GWM what should I take" I've never even seen the indication of trying dual-wielding. But, other than being weaker than GWM I can't find anything sub-par about the combo.

Even PAM is arguably weaker in isolation. Reach is nice, I'd say +1 AC is nicer. 1d10 plus 1d4 is a little less than 2d8 just eyeballing it.

I'm never going to argue that GWM isn't the best damage, to the point wizards should take it just to keep up (hyperbole) but ignoring that spike in the curve makes me wonder why people who don't like that feat don't gravitate towards dual-weilding barbarians.

[Tanarii]

If your point is TWF Barbarians are viable, or at least viable enough, I agree.

My point was merely that people are drawn to big 2H weapons because mechanically that's what Barbarians are best at. It's not an overwhelming "best" until you throw GWM into the mix, but they still have mechanical features which work best with big 2H weapons. Intentionally.

[Tetrasodium]

If your point is TWF Barbarians are viable, or at least viable enough, I agree.

My point was merely that people are drawn to big 2H weapons because mechanically that's what Barbarians are best at. It's not an overwhelming "best" until you throw GWM into the mix, but they still have mechanical features which work best with big 2H weapons. Intentionally.

sadly, the lack of anything really comparable for the smaller/finesse-able weapons is probably why dex barbs get such a bad rap :(. I remember someone trying to start a guide for them a few weeks ago & it was pretty much a lot of "i look forward to it" and "uhh.. what does it involve" type stuff from what I remember

[Chaosmancer]

sadly, the lack of anything really comparable for the smaller/finesse-able weapons is probably why dex barbs get such a bad rap :(. I remember someone trying to start a guide for them a few weeks ago & it was pretty much a lot of "i look forward to it" and "uhh.. what does it involve" type stuff from what I remember

Yeah, the limits placed on barbarians that highly incentivize strength, melee attacks is a little crazy.

I was really sad when someone pointed out you can't reckless javelin throws. It made some recent fights really really hard

[strangebloke]

Yeah, the limits placed on barbarians that highly incentivize strength, melee attacks is a little crazy.

I was really sad when someone pointed out you can't reckless javelin throws. It made some recent fights really really hard

There's good reason for it, though.

A Dex-based barbarian would have high AC on top of all their defensive kit, which would be really strong. One of the classic reasons for going strength based is the higher AC, and that's not a concern for the barbarian.

Ranged reckless attacks are even sillier, since you get the upside with basically no downside. Also, how are you recklessly throwing javelins from 30 feet away?

[Chaosmancer]

There's good reason for it, though.

A Dex-based barbarian would have high AC on top of all their defensive kit, which would be really strong. One of the classic reasons for going strength based is the higher AC, and that's not a concern for the barbarian.

Ranged reckless attacks are even sillier, since you get the upside with basically no downside. Also, how are you recklessly throwing javelins from 30 feet away?

By putting your back into it

Though, I'm not sure how you'd be avoiding the downside of reckless, plenty of attack rolls can still happen, either from return fire or enemies covering that 30 ft on their turn.

And, I get the restrictions, though I will note that to get better AC than half-plate a barbarian needs a 20 and a 16, flip between dex and con as needed. Not impossible, but a decently steep hill depending on how you do stats.

And weirdly to me, it makes sense for barbarians to pump strength and con, making dex their 3rd stat and keeping their AC low.

I don't know, guess I just wish things were a little looser for the barbarian like they are for the fighter, but all martials have this to a degree.

[Naanomi]

I know level 20 isn’t a consideration for many players, but lots of Barbarians end up with 19 AC from 14 DEX/24 CON at that point

[Cynthaer]

In the Happy Fun Hour streams for the Disaster Barbarian, Mike Mearls said that one of the big reasons they keep Barbarians Str-based (i.e., not letting you use Rage damage with Dex attacks) is that it would let Rage and Sneak Attack stack, throwing the Rogue/Barbarian multiclass damage way out of line with the other options.

I don't remember the exact details, but I believe it's because they're both resourceless(-ish), actionless, always-on additions to your melee damage output. I'll let others do the math if they're interested in a direct comparison.

There are two things that follow from this knowledge:

1. Anyone holding out hope for an official Dex-based Barbarian subclass can go ahead and give up, because Mearls has pretty explicitly said that's just not going to happen. (Now, a subclass that favors dual-wielding and mobility, to get across a similar archetypal feel, is still something he very much wants to do.)

2. On the other hand, I think homebrewers and houserulers can feel confident in playing with that space themselves, because they can simply assert "please don't stack this with Rogue Sneak Attack shenanigans, thanks".

[strangebloke]

By putting your back into it

Though, I'm not sure how you'd be avoiding the downside of reckless, plenty of attack rolls can still happen, either from return fire or enemies covering that 30 ft on their turn.

...

I don't know, guess I just wish things were a little looser for the barbarian like they are for the fighter, but all martials have this to a degree.

You could attack without disadvantage at 60 feet. That's a huge upgrade to normal javelins. You could attack and then run 40 feet back (but attacking recklessly.) Tis a silly thing.


In the Happy Fun Hour streams for the Disaster Barbarian, Mike Mearls said that one of the big reasons they keep Barbarians Str-based (i.e., not letting you use Rage damage with Dex attacks) is that it would let Rage and Sneak Attack stack, throwing the Rogue/Barbarian multiclass damage way out of line with the other options.


I agree that letting Barbarians be DEX-based is bad for balance, but...

You can already sneak-attack while raging, just so long as you're using finesse weapons. It's really good, but I'd hesitate to call it overpowered.

The reason for not letting barbarians be dex-based is that it handily removes a key opportunity cost/weakness of barbarians, and makes them pretty much SAD like the rogue and the fighter. Letting Reckless Attack and Rage apply to ranged attacks is horrifyingly overpowered.

Fighter 1, Barbarian 5. Sharpshooter + EA + archery style + Reckless attack means you never miss, ever, and you always land ludicrous damage.

Throwing would be less bad, but there would still be some very silly 'recklessly, expertly skirmishing such that I never get hit' builds. And Reckless is already a crazy good dip, so there's no need to encourage that.

[Dyndrilliac]

@Cynthaer: Seems like that could be easily fixed with an additional restriction on Rage. Barbarians already can't cast spells or concentrate on them while raging despite not having spells by default. Seems like WotC could easily say "In addition, while your Rage is active, you may not benefit from the Sneak Attack feature."

[GlenSmash!]

@Cynthaer: Seems like that could be easily fixed with an additional restriction on Rage. Barbarians already can't cast spells or concentrate on them while raging despite not having spells by default. Seems like WotC could easily say "In addition, while your Rage is active, you may not benefit from the Sneak Attack feature."

The power doesn't come from Rage+Sneak attack as much as from Reckless Attack+Sneak Attack.